Cult to Comedy: Shannon Payton on Turning Trauma into Humor

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access. To powder skiing legacy. To independent spirit. North where easy to get to. Meets worlds away. Go north to snow basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:27] The views and opinions expressed by a little bit cultier, those are the hosts. And don't reflect the official policy or position of the podcast, right Sarah? Correct.

[00:00:36] Any of the quote fire content, I prefer lava content provided by our guest blogger, sponsors or authors of the opinion and are not intended to malign a religion, a group, a club, an organization, business individual, anyone or anything unless Sarah? You're a douchebag. Yeah, I mean pretty much.

[00:00:54] Also, we're not doctors, psychologists or wizards. We're just two non experts trying to make you a friendly informative podcast based on our experience that we've turned into wisdom. Okay. Good talk. Okay. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here.

[00:01:16] And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.

[00:01:27] We've been there and back again. A little about us. True story. We met and fell in love in a cult. And then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge. The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow now in its second season.

[00:01:41] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:48] Look at us. A couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait, wait. This does not count toward date night, babe. We got to schedule that. That's separate.

[00:02:01] So it's two days? We got to hang out? We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium. Still on that journey. And we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:13] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level marketing.

[00:02:24] This stuff really is everywhere. The Cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com. We are live. It's the new year. Happy 2023.

[00:03:01] Oh my God, 2023. What was 23 when you... Did you even think of that year? No. 2020 seems so epically in the future when I was younger. So did 1993. So it's just all relative. How are you? You know, just doing my thing, dropping some podcasts, doing my thing.

[00:03:22] So vague. Well, truly we can't really comment on what's happening because we recorded this in advance so we could take the holidays off. Let's just be honest. Yeah, I'm supposed to tell them that, are you? Well, whatever. I feel like our audience knows us and doesn't judge us.

[00:03:35] Are you going to develop a deep, honest relationship with our audience? I think we already have. I think we already have. Okay, Sarah, why don't you kick this intro off? Why don't you do a little segue action?

[00:03:43] This is a friend of mine, well friend virtually. As many of our guests are that we haven't had a chance to meet in person that connected with over the social meds. Social meds huge these days.

[00:03:56] Shannon Payton, who we lovingly call Shani Pants, grew up in Northern California where at age 12 she already knew the boy she wanted to marry. They got engaged in high school and she said their vows when she was just 19.

[00:04:07] She went on to become a wildly successful content creator, comedian, podcaster and mother of three who also works in real estate on the side and has had some of her viral TikTok videos air on mainstream TV programs like the Kelly Clarkson show.

[00:04:21] All good. All legal. No problems. And they lived happily ever after. That's it? That's really it. Pack it up. That's the episode. It's our shortest episode.

[00:04:31] Wait, wait, wait, wait. Just come back. I left out a little detail. Until the age of 31, Miss Shannon Payton was in a cult. It's inches away from a clean getaway.

[00:04:41] Sorry Nippy. But yeah, Shannon was born and raised in a religious community that started off as a non-denominational Bible study for her grandparents.

[00:04:50] As always, things began innocently enough. But by the late 70s and early 80s, a leader took over who turned the organization into a fear and guilt based community in which women were only allowed to wear dresses, for example.

[00:05:02] If a woman was out of line in any way her husband or father was given a stern talking to during the men's meetings as they were called. Then came markings, excommunication, public humiliation and so much more. Damn.

[00:05:14] And what I know of Shannon Pants, she's really been able to turn what I now understand to be a dark past and as something not only positive and helpful for others, but even humorous to a certain extent with her content.

[00:05:25] If there's one thing cults don't really love besides disobedience, it would be humor. Yes. And humorous women especially. Right. Especially if the person you're trying to suppress is funnier than you. It's a double whammy.

[00:05:36] So because of that we're thrilled to have Shannon Payton or Shannon Pants, content creator, podcaster and soon to be author of her very own book.

[00:05:43] And one of the things I'm really excited about with this episode is that this is a lighter one and we have some guests lined up for 2023 that are intense, dark.

[00:05:54] And this is just a light way to start off the year before we really dig into the nitty gritty. So without further ado, Shannon Pants. Shannon Pants, welcome to a little bit culty. Thank you so much. Welcome to our cult.

[00:06:19] Yeah, it's a good one. It's a good one. Slow, slow indoctrination. We take our time. We take our sweet time. This is just the beginning. Yeah, yeah. Here's the love bombing. We love you. We love what you're doing.

[00:06:32] We actually have been delineating for our guests like what's the difference between expressing love and appreciation versus love bombing? Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good distinction. Well, the distinction is authenticity.

[00:06:42] And there's no bait and switch. We're not love bombing you in order to get you to do something that you're not aware of right now. Absolutely. I appreciate you. Well, I can love that.

[00:06:51] So you know our format because I know you're a dedicated listener and we appreciate that. Definitely am.

[00:06:59] And as I mentioned to you last night, like there's not so much to research about this group, which is kind of fun for us because we can just really have an authentic conversation of trying to understand and you sharing your story.

[00:07:12] You can check out the YouTube videos, Sarah. Yes. If you want to fall asleep, go for it. I did listen to some and they're like, but I also think this group is a great sort of, let me put it this way.

[00:07:25] So many people reach out about various small religious groups from around the country, different names that sound kind of similar. And all of them think that they are the one true church or the not church or the one true path. Yes.

[00:07:40] So one true message of Jesus or whoever. Tell us a little bit about your group from your perspective growing up in it and your parents were also raised in that, correct? Yes. Yes. Will you give us the Cliff Notes? Yeah, Cliff Notes are.

[00:07:55] It sounds like it started in my grandparents generation basically as kind of like Bible studies in homes. They didn't want to be affiliated with the denomination. So they just kind of started meeting in homes. So I think it started as a pretty like okay thing.

[00:08:09] And then by the mid 80s, it sounds like late 70s, early 80s, the person who is still continuing to do it now kind of took over.

[00:08:20] And after that, it really turned into very rule based fear based, very guilt ridden group and it turned into like a total power thing. And in the mid 80s, what happened is there was like a mass marking. We call them markings, which basically is excommunication.

[00:08:40] So because people start questioning things and you know how Colt Leader loves to be questioned, it got a real intense mid 80s. Can you clear up what markings are for our audience? Yes. So markings are basically an excommunication where you are not allowed to be with that person.

[00:08:58] Like if you were to see this person in the grocery store, you don't make eye contact. It was real, real strict.

[00:09:04] And that was really the biggest fear they held over us is that you're going to be marked and that means you're not going to have contact with family members, friends, and our whole lives were in this group. So if you were marked, you had no one.

[00:09:16] So it was a big fear. And in the mid 80s, they did kind of like a wholesale marking where a bunch of people got marked because there were large groups and whole families questioning and really wanting answers for why we did certain things.

[00:09:33] And so it was easier to just mark them all than to you know have to actually answer and be truthful about something. Well, the term mark, you hear it elsewhere. It's like it's an assassin's target. Do you have the mark?

[00:09:44] At least in the movies, but still I don't think that word's an accident anyway. Is it like born identity kind of stuff? I mean, maybe you watch as a lot of born identity. I've identified the mark. Should I take them out? I like that. Like seriously. Yeah.

[00:09:57] It's the first thing I thought of. You definitely felt that way and we called it you were marked to be avoided. And that was basically how you felt.

[00:10:03] And you wouldn't be able to come back into the group unless you would, you would always have to publicly confess like in front of the congregation and you would have to, you know, in most cases, you're confessing to something that wasn't really true.

[00:10:19] And you would have that happen where people would lie just to get back in knowing they're not confessing anything that's real. But in the mid 80s when we had a huge amount that were marked, they weren't willing to do that.

[00:10:30] And so they stayed marked and I had family, my dad's sister and husband who was my dad's best friend and my three cousins were marked in that mid 80 marking.

[00:10:41] And I'll always remember it because I was really young and one of my cousins was my age that was marked and we were always together and always spent time together. And then all of a sudden he was gone for my life.

[00:10:53] So it was really weird and confusing. And I just have very, like very few memories of that time with him and we've reconnected now. Oh good. That was what I was going to ask you.

[00:11:03] Yeah, yeah. It's been so much fun. It's been, it's been a lot of fun. How many years was it between marking and reconnection? Let's see about 30. Wow. Three? Yeah, so sad. Yeah, it was really, really sad. Oh my heart breaks.

[00:11:18] I know it was awful and it's been fun now though. I love his wife and his kids. And so it's been really great reconnecting as adults, but you know, if you let yourself think about it, it's like, I could get so sad. Yeah.

[00:11:32] All the missed years and then I get really sad for my dad too because now him and my uncle are reconnected of course as well.

[00:11:38] And they were best friends. So they missed out on so many years together and his sister. So it's okay now, but it was pretty awful.

[00:11:46] And I can't imagine like I was obviously young and had no control, but like I can't imagine how that was for my parents and having to say goodbye to family. Well, you don't even get the chance to say goodbye.

[00:11:56] I just think that's the worst. But when people question like is something a cult or not a cult? If they're asking you not to speak to people you love because you have different opinions. Oh yeah. 100% a fucking cult. That is the mark of the cult.

[00:12:12] The damaged relationships in the time, like I'm happy. I'm happy where we are. We're starting to build something thrive. Things are going well and you can always build back certain things.

[00:12:21] The time that is emptied out usously over something that's so silly to me is still the one thing I kind of hanker with, you know, and it's really the hardest.

[00:12:31] There's nothing you can do about it and your only entity and your only real asset is your time and how you spend it. Exactly. It's still the one I kind of go, damn.

[00:12:39] I am the same way. It's yeah, it's and again, it's one of those things like I just I don't go there often. I try not to.

[00:12:47] You're upset. Yeah, because it's hard to it's yeah, you can't ever get it back. You can imagine and I am thankful that I do have some memories of being with them.

[00:12:59] Because like my younger sisters really don't. And so I think, well, at least I have those couple of good memories of spending time together.

[00:13:06] And I mean, and this happened to so many families. There's even people that had like elderly or not even elderly but family members that were this one person in particular that was dying of cancer.

[00:13:18] And so they like lifted the marking for them to go and see them before they died. And then they got better, and they didn't die.

[00:13:27] And so then they're like, no, and they had to stop seeing them. It's so weird and wrong. Like just what they did to families was just it's so painful.

[00:13:37] It just ripped families apart. And I mean, I've seen many, you know, recover since then, but a lot that don't because there's just so much damage done. It's very sad.

[00:13:47] It's so sad. And I can't like we didn't have that with our families. We had that with our friends, right? Because next year was our, you know, our social community.

[00:13:54] And I know how I feel about those friends. I can't even imagine with the family that's just such a next level of control. And I have so many more questions about what the group was doing in other regards.

[00:14:05] But let me go back for a second because, you know, you didn't choose this when you were born, you know, you're born into it.

[00:14:11] When things were good, what was the vision? Like what was being sold and what did your family buy into in terms of like, what was the bait?

[00:14:19] So both my parents were really born into it as well. And you always married within the group. So they were in it and they got married. And, you know, and I do have some really good memories of being there. You know, we had some fun times.

[00:14:32] I think the main draw was kind of this family community. And like, I always, I always compare it to like kids that joined gangs that don't have families and they're lost and they just want to be wanted.

[00:14:47] And so that's really how I compare it is it's just the space was maybe good for people that are very lost and it appeared to be this loving Bible, fearing little community.

[00:14:58] And we were each other's lives completely. We did not have outside friends. And if you did, you definitely would get talked to about that.

[00:15:06] So it was very inclusive like these are your people. And so that's why the markings were so scary. It's you lost all your people if you had to leave. Was it like a compound or a small town or a village? How was it set up?

[00:15:21] So I was a part of Northern California in a small town and we did not live in compounds, but like I live in the country and like two other families were on the properties next to us.

[00:15:33] It just so happened that it was that way, which was not good. But we called them assemblies. We had one up here in Northern California and then on the coast there's one and then the LA area. There's four in California and then Texas, Virginia, one in Canada.

[00:15:47] Where in Canada is it? Nova Scotia. Okay, far away. Yeah, you're welcome. You're safe, sir. Yeah, you are safe. Don't join it if they seem nice run. I'm so allergic to nice communities. Yes, they're so scary. Yeah.

[00:16:02] So anyway, it was so there was many assemblies, but I was a part of the small one. There's probably about 100 of us in our group.

[00:16:07] We would meet in Grange halls and we were with each other pretty much all day on Sundays, Friday nights and Wednesday nights were like our meetings.

[00:16:16] We would call them. We did not refer to ourselves as a church. We viewed denominational churches as wrong because they were, you know, everything wrong that they did. We did not celebrate any holidays at all except birthdays. We did do birthdays.

[00:16:30] So anytime there was a holiday, we would have to have an event because we could not be involved in it. It made us have to go to something so we weren't tempted to be involved. So during Christmas and July were our big camps, we called them.

[00:16:46] So we would go down to farm country here in California and rent fairgrounds. And so then people from all the assemblies would get together.

[00:16:54] So this is kind of where you would scope out the possibilities of marriage and kind of be like, okay, what are my other options here? Because I am in this group of 100 and we only have a handful. It's your church's version of the club. It definitely was.

[00:17:10] And Vanguard week. Absolutely. Yeah, you're like, hmm, that guy's looking good in his Levi's. I remember when I met Nippy and I don't know if I've ever shared it on the podcast, but Nippy was wearing these brown cords. What? That's hot.

[00:17:26] Yeah, he's wearing brown cords and a rolling stone shirt with like the tongue on it. And he was doing this stick where like he had his cords pulled up over his balls like a camel. Like what's it called a moose knuckle?

[00:17:37] And he was like, he was doing this like stick thing and I was like, who is this guy? Oh my God. Mark said his name is Nippy and he's from Los Angeles. I was like, Nippy? It's called karma. It's called karma.

[00:17:50] This is washing back up on my shoulder. I digress, but I had totally had the same thing. Like, you know, I realized early on I thought I was a next-year for life. So I got a black one from the group.

[00:18:00] I tried dating outside the fold and it was very difficult. Right. I didn't think that I could speak the same language. Yes, no. I locked that shit down. Yes. And you looked out too. I know. I won the lottery there. Yeah. Bless. Pure bless. Hashtag bless. Hashtag grateful.

[00:18:21] Yes. Hashtag live life, live life love. Right? So you met your husband. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So remember we're pretty an intermixed group. We're not a family. We're not a family. We're not a family. I'm okay how I married, but there are some that's like, you know, okay.

[00:18:40] Third cousin situations where you're just like, Oh, well, you know, our options were limited to peace. So be nice. You know, we, The family tree goes straight up. Yeah. It's not a great situation, but I did. So my, and you have to remember this goes back generation.

[00:18:57] So everyone knows everyone. My grandparents were friends with his grandparents. My parents were friends with his parents. He was born in Texas, but I think when he was like five, they moved to the San Luis Obispo area where we had an assembly.

[00:19:09] And that's where my grandparents still live in that area. And, and I have lots of family there. So we knew each other just from even going to visit that area. So whenever we'd go to meetings, I would see him any events. We always saw each other.

[00:19:21] And then at camps, you know, that's where the love really blossoms. And you let all the other people know this one's mine. So probably I was probably 12. Yeah, I was 12 when I knew I would marry him. And we didn't date.

[00:19:35] You literally got to know each other at meetings because you were allowed to be alone. I'm not a 12 that I needed to be alone with him, but, you know, our entire relationship was basically with other people. So you didn't date.

[00:19:47] You always had to have a chaperone always, always, always. So a 12 years old knew I was marrying him. He would have been 14. And then we got engaged when I was 17, 18. So in high school, I was engaged. And then I got married when I was 19.

[00:20:03] And you live with your parents all the time. You don't go to college or anything. And so you just get married. And all of a sudden you're living with this other human and have no clue and no resources. And it's pretty awful. That's really tough. Yeah.

[00:20:16] And that's how everyone did it. And, you know, we even had people like I said in the other assemblies, like I had friends that married guys from Texas. And so you literally have this long distance relationship where you're

[00:20:27] back then writing letters and maybe talking on the phone once a week, if that, and, and then you marry him. And so it's like, you don't really, I mean, you'll see him in person a couple of times, but you don't really know these people.

[00:20:40] And luckily for some of my friends that worked out fine, but yeah, not like not set up in it. We didn't, we weren't allowed to do like counseling except by the leader who was, that is a whole nother thing because the counseling

[00:20:51] makes you want to barf your brains out. But you weren't allowed to have, you know, real counseling or anything to prepare you for marriage. It was literally like sleeping with my little sister in our bedroom and then next day I'm getting married. That's so wild.

[00:21:05] There's no transition period. No, no. And let me backtrack for a second. At this point in your life, were you questioning or had you learned to not question because you didn't want to be marked? So we questioned. So our family was a bit of a rebellious family.

[00:21:19] We did real crazy stuff like sneak to Disneyland and Oh no, we were allowed to. I know, I know, I know. We were allowed to wear like pants and shorts at home, but many families out absolutely not. And why no pants?

[00:21:36] No pants is because pants are men's clothing and there, of course, our Bible verses to absolutely support this, but pants are men's clothing dresses or women's clothing. And it really comes down to a modesty thing.

[00:21:49] And this is where I have a lot of problems with how we were raised because I'm still dealing with it is it was put on us that we basically as women and girls, young girls controlled men's sexual urges.

[00:22:04] So like my dad would get talked to me and my, I have a sister that's 18 months younger than me. And like I said, our family was rebellious. And so my dad would have to go to men's meetings all the time,

[00:22:14] which was like if one of your women folk, you know, did something wrong, the husband or dad gets called into a meeting because like our skirts would be a little too tight and so and so was very turned on by it.

[00:22:26] And so even as a young girl, you're living that and this guilt of like, Oh my gosh, I'm causing people to sin because of what I wear, what I do or how I act.

[00:22:36] So that to me is so damaging to these kids that that is put on them. And again, my parents now I'm so thankful we're rebellious a bit and they weren't okay with that. Like we would have like genuine conversations in our family.

[00:22:52] And I remember so as far as the question about questioning, yes, we were questioning my dad was one of the guys that would be questioning, questioning. My mom was never happy there. And so I think it caused me to not be happy there.

[00:23:05] When people say like, when did you feel like you wanted to get out? I don't feel like I ever belonged. I feel like I always had this longing for more. I have like this fun outgoing personality that was just squelched

[00:23:16] and anytime I would try to do anything like more me, I'd get slammed down for it. And so I feel like a part of me just eventually died to where I wouldn't outwardly question things, but always inwardly. I'm like, this is not right. This is not cool.

[00:23:32] But yeah, and I remember when I was probably 17, me and my sister of course already knew who we would be marrying at this point and having a conversation with my parents where my dad said, we can up and leave right now, but you'll never see the guys again.

[00:23:47] And so we decided to stay and you know, and it was just the truth of it. And that's how they kept you was if you leave, you literally will have no friends in my family. We went to public school, but many families did not. Were they homeschooled?

[00:24:01] Yeah, homeschooled. Yeah. You would have school friends, but you would never do anything with them outside of school. It was literally just at school because we didn't weren't allowed to do any like extracurricular activities, no sports. You weren't a part of any clubs. Yeah, nothing.

[00:24:15] You were really robbed of your childhood. Yeah, yeah. And like my husband is super athletic and like basically any sport and he was not able to play little league. And I mean, nothing. And he's still like that's still really a sad thing.

[00:24:30] So yeah, we were, we were robbed of a lot in our childhood. So yes, I feel like I was always questioning. This is the golden age of cult recovery. The more we speak up and share our stories, the more we realize we are not alone.

[00:24:45] Your voice and your story can empower others. This is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I Got Out movement. For more at I got out.org. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are your self care non-negotiables?

[00:25:38] Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga. Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. I mean, that's my personal and everyone's dream, isn't it? Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time

[00:25:51] as I can outside of nature. Hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it. Nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded. Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks.

[00:26:05] I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it. It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful

[00:26:13] place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need. Like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people. You know what I mean? Thanks therapy.

[00:26:23] Thanks for helping me see that. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime

[00:26:36] for no additional charge. Look, even when we know what makes us happy, it's hard to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever. Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp.

[00:26:48] Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culty. We had our own version of that and one of our trainings. I don't know if we've talked about this much on the pod,

[00:27:03] but it was the in the SOP training. We were we were allowed as women to take this new training that was supposed to be just for men. And we knew that we were going into it like it was, it was presented as a boot camp.

[00:27:13] You know, like we were going to get it. We were going to get training of what like little boys go through in terms of like the ribbing and the structure and like the things that little girls don't, because we're just little princesses in a bubble

[00:27:24] and everyone protects us. And it was called the obedience training. But right from the beginning, like we all would show up in what we would normally wear to a training. And we learned on day one that we couldn't wear that.

[00:27:34] And by day six, we were all in really baggy, not form fitting, nothing showing any cleavage or shape because that was the only way we could get through without being basically called out for either being a tease or I remember one time I like,

[00:27:49] I was wearing jeans on the first day and then I got a ribbon like that you give to cows in a, in a, at the farm of what's it called? Like when farmers bring their cows. Yeah, I got like best in show for best display of ass.

[00:28:03] Now listen, I was kind of, I was kind of proud of it, but I was also mortified. There was a story that Keith told about how women are trying to like they like show their boobs or whatever because they're, they're fishing for something that they want,

[00:28:17] you know, a husband or they want a partner. This is what he taught us. We don't understand that when we're showing our tits and ass, we think we're fishing for fish, but we're actually getting turtles because men just want to fuck that.

[00:28:29] They don't want to marry or have babies with that. So what we would then say is if we saw somebody dressed, you know, like tight shirt or whatever, we could say, oh, fishing for turtles. And then there became a song. We'd be, we'd be like fishing for turtles.

[00:28:42] Like if someone was dressed up for the night and like looking sexy, like, oh yeah, a fish and for turtles. And that became a thing which is really saying you look, you know, you look slutty essentially, but it goes back to the same thing that we were responsible.

[00:28:54] And now I like, you know, obviously I dress however I want. It is good to know that if I'm going to a business meaning, I'm not gonna like have, you know, the girls on display because it may be as distracting, but like, you know,

[00:29:05] I'm not going to do it for the same reasons that I was taught. Do you know what I mean? I don't dress up for a funeral. Yeah, in that way. There's reading the room and then there's also being controlled

[00:29:15] from a young age and feeling guilty about your body, which is, yeah, it's not, it's very different things. No. And it's, yeah, and it's so harmful too. Cause then everything's bad and the, yeah, the guilt is just, it was awful from such a young age.

[00:29:29] So it was sad. And that may be one of the things to answer our next question, but you know, obviously you've been out for a while and you've had a lot of recovery, which we're going to get to in a sec.

[00:29:38] But when you were in, what were some of the glaring that you now know are red flags or things that cause you to be like, uh, so like there was the pans. Right. It was all the kind of outward appearance type things.

[00:29:50] Like we weren't allowed to wear makeup, no piercings, no tattoos, no nail polish. And basically like you just talked about it's like, cause you're putting yourself on display and you're accentuating your fingernails cause that's so hot. And you know, all these things was just like,

[00:30:05] it was all outward appearance. And it was really sad too, because they used Bible references or biblical background to back these rules basically. And you hear this so many times with people in religious cults, but it's so damaging to your spiritual side of you

[00:30:22] because you, you know, come to this belief that God is this like awful scary terrible thing when it doesn't have to be that way. And that was always so confusing as a child be like, okay, wait, you're saying God is loving and,

[00:30:34] you know, wants the best for me. And yet I cannot please him in any way because everything I do is wrong and it's just really, really hard. So why would I be doing this? Yeah, he's just amazing being that rules like Satan. Yeah. It's very confusing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:52] Very confusing because I am a spiritual religious person still, but it took a long time and a lot of like processing what I was taught for so many years. And I think like my parents' generation, like that much more they've been in it that much longer.

[00:31:08] So Red Flags, a lot of it was the outward appearance and then not being able to question anything, whether it was anything, anything, it was, you know, came down to the music. We cannot listen to music like except we sing him. So it was very limited.

[00:31:20] So like all these crazy rules, like they would do a meeting about listening to music and then they would go out to all the teenagers vehicles and take any CDs they found and like drill holes through them.

[00:31:32] So like it was very just like you're not allowed to do these things. Looking back, of course, so many Red Flags for me now it's like if you tell me what to wear, what to do, what I can't do, boom, I'm out.

[00:31:45] So those would have been the Red Flags to me. And then a lot of weird stuff happened too, like sexual because I think things were so over sexualized because of how we were blamed for things. And so it was always on your mind, like, am I showing

[00:31:57] too much? Am I doing this? And for the guys, it was this whole other thing. So I feel like that part of it was so damaging and now looking at like Red Flag, Red Flag, Red Flag, because

[00:32:07] I think, okay, if my girls were to be hanging out with so I would be alarms going off like crazy. So just so just weird stuff. Because you were worried that because it was so suppressed that like there'd be not good stuff happening.

[00:32:21] There was a lot of not good stuff happening a lot. I'm going through some stuff right now figuring some of this out. So I didn't have anything crazy sexually happen to me, but lots of stuff happened in the group and definitely

[00:32:34] in all the different assemblies and everything was very public. So if something happened and you were on the wrong side of the street, you're going to be up front. We're going to be talking about you for months. You're going to be marked, all this stuff.

[00:32:47] But then the worst part of it is the people that were leading and in control or if it was someone they liked, if something like that happened, it would be pushed under the rug. Someone that my age had an affair with a married man

[00:32:59] outside of the cult and it was pushed under the rug because of who her dad was. And I'm like, why aren't you on the stage? Why like what is going on here? So it just depends how you rate it. And our family did not rate real high.

[00:33:13] So there was a ranking system? Well, not technically, but yeah. Based on what? Whoever the leader liked probably who was giving him the most money. I don't know. And the structure of the leadership, there was a leader and then there was like a team around him. Yeah.

[00:33:25] So basically like one main leader and then leaders in each assembly, but I would say they all were under him. And then you would have like the leaders from each assembly like come to our assembly to give us a message and kind of share the wealth because

[00:33:39] it was so much knowledge to share with us. So much knowledge. Was there any knowledge there that was helpful or was it all like, did you throw it all out later? No, I pretty much threw it all out. Okay. All of it.

[00:33:52] And I was like, I'm going to go back and I, because people were like, oh, you were raised with the Bible. Like you must be so knowledgeable. And I'm like, I literally pretty much besides like your normal like Sunday school stories have no biblical knowledge at all.

[00:34:05] Because why? You would have to skew that biblical knowledge in order for you to take something that was and originally, well, like you said good in the beginning and someone comes in and says, Oh, I can abuse this to serve my needs or whatever.

[00:34:19] And a lot of those in the United States just different interpretations that claim themselves right and then persecute others for having different beliefs. And that's exactly how it is as we were right and everyone else was wrong basically. Us versus them. Yeah, always us versus them.

[00:34:33] Certainly no freedom of speech. No. Oh no, no, no, no, and especially as a woman. Yeah. I tried that once that didn't go so well. So lots of red flags looking back, of course, so many everything as far as getting out.

[00:34:46] Like I said earlier, I always had the feeling that I wasn't happy there. It wasn't right. I always stuffed my feelings because I had this big expressive personality and couldn't do anything with it. So we went through my husband and I about three years of infertility treatments.

[00:35:03] So that was a very lonely, lonely while we were in the cold, very lonely place to be because all of our relationships were very superficial. So we didn't talk deep. I mean, literally besides like the weather and what just happened at meeting and what we're having for lunch.

[00:35:19] We did not have deep relationships. So that we were keeping it very private and like it was just a very sad time for me. I felt so alone, so lonely. I also had this impeding feeling of guilt where this is my fault.

[00:35:36] Like I have sinned and done so many things wrong that now this is the result of it as God is not allowing me to have children. And I mean, that's what we did. We got married and we had kids. That was kind of just how it went.

[00:35:49] So I had a lot of guilt about that. And then again, it was just lonely. It was an awful, awful experience and just a very tough time. So we did that for about three years and then ran out of money. Cause that's expensive. It's very expensive to do.

[00:36:02] Very expensive, very expensive. Yes. And just the emotional toll. Oh my gosh. It is exhausting. And then also thinking it's your fault. It's horrible. It's a horrible place to be. Yes. Of course it's your fault. And I loved, of course it's my fault. Of course. Like why not?

[00:36:19] Everything was. I mean, you know, you could just, you wear a pair of sweatpants and you are not going to be able to have babies because God hates sweatpants. What's the retention at this point when you're going through this, right?

[00:36:31] Now do other people in the church know this and are they okay with it? They would have been okay with it. Again, these relationships were so super. We just, I didn't want to share it. To me it was this private.

[00:36:42] And I think probably part of that was the guilt. Like I don't want people to know that like God's doing this to me. Right. And cause then they might know of these other secrets I have. So we did try to keep it really private.

[00:36:54] You're kind of gaslighting yourself a little bit. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. It was not a good time. And it is, it's just such an emotional process anyway that having that extra guilt. And then to like, if you didn't go to meetings,

[00:37:10] like if you didn't show up, I was sick a lot and stuff and didn't feel like going. And I just had attitude towards the end about going anyway, but you would be like, Oh, why weren't you guys at meeting? What's going on?

[00:37:20] So it was just like, you could never relax. It was just always like, high, high stress. I feel like so then going through that on top of it was not fun. But then we decided to adopt. And even that was weird because we don't know anyone that's adopted.

[00:37:34] You know, we, you feel alone all over again. And so we had some crazy stuff happen and then finally we're able to adopt our first child who was a boy, we got him at a month old. And so we were parents and very quickly I realized like parents,

[00:37:53] you know, I don't know being a mom changed me for sure. And I'm like, okay, I'm basically going to be repeating what my parents did. Having not being able to explain things to me. And my parents would be truthful about it.

[00:38:07] Like we don't know why we believe like, we don't know, but we're still part of this group. And so I realized I'm going to have to do the same thing. I'm going to have to lie to my kid and say,

[00:38:15] Oh, mommy wears skirts because it's modest when I don't believe that. And that really for me was like, uh-uh, like I can't not do this. I cannot do this. And then during that same time or right around probably when my son was about one,

[00:38:31] a lot of the people in our generation started questioning things and started pushing back harder than ever before and kind of weren't going to give up. So then of course leadership starts marking people and starts working more people. And then we're like, you know what? Who cares?

[00:38:52] Like I'm still hanging out with so and so, even though they're marked because they're my friend. I'm not going to listen to you. So the markings became bad. Yeah. Yeah. There's no fear there when there's no fear behind it doesn't work. It took the fear away.

[00:39:06] It was just like, no, we don't care. Okay. Cool. Labeled them marked. They're still my friend. And actually they're having a much better life what they're doing. So that's basically what happened and people slowly just started quit going.

[00:39:18] So like my parents were some of the first that quit going because I again, I think they were always on their way out. And then we took a little bit longer because my husband's family stayed.

[00:39:27] I had huge attitude about going and everyone knew it, but eventually we left. I quit going to my husband quit going. And then it was very weird to be thrown into the real world basically because we had lived this life of basically being told what to do,

[00:39:43] how to act, what to wear, everything for our entire lives. And then suddenly we're like, oh, oh wait, we have to make our own choices and own decisions. And it was really scary because it was just a very odd feeling.

[00:40:00] I still to this day have a hard time making decisions. Yes. And it's like, you know, it's like, oh wait, I need someone to confirm this before I make this choice. I need someone else to like, okay this. I have a hard time with that.

[00:40:42] I just had a 12 year old boy still appeared asking for help. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs. Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives.

[00:41:06] Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. How long ago was this? When did you leave? It was 11 years ago. I was 30 years old. Okay. It's been 11 years still working on things. And did you actually move? Did you leave the area?

[00:41:53] No, we stayed in the area and our assembly in our area completely dissolved. There was about two families left and they moved down south because there wasn't enough people to like have a meeting with. So you don't have the community in your area anymore? Uh-uh. That's great.

[00:42:08] We have lots of ex people in the area and some were friends with, but you know, life moved on and it was exciting. It was like we get to make our own friends. Oh my gosh. It was crazy. That's cool.

[00:42:19] Yeah, it's been an experience. It's been an experience. And then we ended up adopting, we went through the foster care system the second time around and adopted two girls, a sibling set or our son was seven.

[00:42:29] And the girls when we got them were two and a half and 14 months old. Wow. I'm going to cry. And I feel like we still have it adjusted. Like we are still like on this like, ah, yeah, but it's great.

[00:42:41] So the girls are eight and 10 now in our sense, 14 and every day's party. Oh yeah. That's great. But it's been a journey and all that's been super stressful and a lot, but the nice thing like when we adopted the girls, the difference was I had support system.

[00:42:57] I had my people and so it was pretty neat too. And I wasn't like, I wouldn't say, I mean, I don't think I'll ever be fully healed. It's always going to be a journey.

[00:43:06] But when we adopted the girls, I had enough of a change where I had that support and we were obviously out. So it was, it was much better. And then as far as the healing goes, it's just been a journey.

[00:43:19] It took, you know, people say, you know, was it so cool? Like you're out. Yeah. And I'm like, no, it wasn't.

[00:43:26] It was more like a slow process of like, ooh, I'm going to wear some baggy sweatpants and then, you know, progressed to my spanks leggings now and where I'll wear whatever I want and don't care what anyone thinks.

[00:43:38] Let me ask you what is the thing that you're most sensitive to right now? Like, like allergic to, I mean, well, yeah. Could that and just kind of like, no, that didn't feel right. That doesn't feel right.

[00:43:48] I have a couple of things that I have and just wondering, you know, yeah, that's a great question. I feel like for me it's any of the like telling me what to do. Like even my girls were just in theater and did this performance for the first time.

[00:44:02] And even like, I have to just chill out and be like, I am not in charge of the costumes. They're picking the certain things for a certain reason. And that's okay. Like it's okay that there are rules about the costumes.

[00:44:16] So it's like stuff like that will still get to me though where I feel like is there a reason they're making them dress like so I can get funny about and a lot of it has to do with like outward appearance.

[00:44:28] You know, because it took like again, it took a while to get to a place where I'm very comfortable. Now paint my nails whatever color I want at first it was like a nude color, you know, and then a light pink and now green.

[00:44:41] So it's kind of that it's any like, I just don't like that. I have a problem with authority still. I have a very skewed perception of authority in general. How is it for you to travel or like dealing with TSA?

[00:44:54] That's where I get my get really my bag goes out. I'm like, oh, it gets so indignant and rebellious.

[00:45:00] I don't have too much of a problem with TSA, but it's more the closer relationships I feel like than something like that because I definitely have the like ability to TSA person. You have nothing to do with my life so I can discount them what you're saying.

[00:45:21] Yeah, but it's more the closer relationships that will bother me and I'll be like, yep. And I'm going to step away from this one.

[00:45:26] And what about look if you look back at these 11 years, what are the things that have been most helpful in your healing process like any particular books or therapy or things like that? Oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean, one podcast have been amazing.

[00:45:39] I listen every single day to many different podcasts on healing and like these cool podcasts are amazing to listen to just for that. Again, the feeling of not being alone.

[00:45:48] The last two years I've really put in a ton of work and what happened is I started writing my book and I realize, wow, this is a lot of trauma here still. I like can't write sentences without just being in tears.

[00:46:02] So I realized I've got a lot more work to do before I decide to write this book because I want it to end on a healthy note. And then my social media platform, I was kind of thrown into it a couple videos go viral.

[00:46:13] So I was thrown into this like influencer, which I still can't even like handle saying that because I'm the most uninfluencer person there is.

[00:46:22] But I was thrown into this community all of a sudden and it started out as very humorous because humor is a huge part of my healing. And I put out one post where I talked about it was like one of those quick little tiktoky things.

[00:46:36] I talked about born in a cult dealt with infertility and adopted my kids something like that. And all of a sudden I'm bombarded with all these messages in all these different areas and I'm like, oh, wow.

[00:46:48] I feel like now I've been given this opportunity to be something a little bit more than just this funny person on the internet for these people.

[00:46:55] And that is truly where my healing like jumped up a whole level because it gave me this like again, I don't want people to feel alone going through these different times in life or feel like oh,

[00:47:07] I'm the only person that lived in this really weird group and I'm not sure what it was. I've had so many people reach out to me like I'm sure you guys get where it's like, oh my gosh, that sounds just like my group.

[00:47:18] So I feel like I've healed a lot just with the community that I now have there on social media. And I tell them all the time when I'm live I'm like, you guys have been here for my healing process really. And what happened is the pandemic hit.

[00:47:31] That's when the videos started going viral and I upped my therapy a whole lot because I realized I needed it and that helped. And then I really just dove into healing because I realized I never really healed like I read the books, listen to the podcast,

[00:47:48] but I never truly like accepted that I needed to heal more, I guess. And then also mental health because the pandemic just really for all of us that lived with it probably our whole lives, it really escalated it.

[00:48:02] So I ended up having to go on medication and it brought me to a place of understanding that I needed to accept help. I've always had a really, really hard time accepting help. And I realized okay, it's okay to have to be on medication.

[00:48:16] It's also hard to get help if you have authority issues too. And why would you? Why would you trust somebody to be like, here's what's wrong with you because if you feel like there's something wrong with you then you're back to the cult.

[00:48:28] And we hit all those things. And as a cult, you didn't have mental health problems. Looking back now we had very, very high level of mental health problems going on. It's inevitable when you're that suppressed and you're that... You can't be yourself. It's impossible not to.

[00:48:44] There's no way to just be a sheep to not be marked. No, it's really horrific.

[00:48:48] Also I'd imagine if you're leaving at the time you're having a child which by the way I didn't realize at the time but I was pulling back too and I had Troy which was three years before we left but I was like this is more important.

[00:49:00] This life and this connection is more important. I didn't realize it until later but I think when you have that and then you leave, you know those... Well you know this, you have three kids.

[00:49:10] Being a parent is so full on and you don't have time to think about your own... Like you're putting someone else first constantly, constantly, constantly.

[00:49:18] Now that your kids are a bit older it probably makes sense that you have the time and space to go, okay wait am I okay? And I think that's exactly right. I've been dealing with littles. Other things are at stake besides just your own well-being, your child's well-being.

[00:49:31] Right. Yeah.

[00:49:33] I do just the freedom and every day, every single day I'm thankful for not raising my children how I was raised because I've got some kids with some pretty strong personalities and I'm like there's no way I would spend the time in the morning making them wear certain things to school

[00:49:50] and have that be an important thing because like I am happy if we get to school and there's like shoes on the feet. I can't imagine being like sorry that skirt is too short you have outgrown it. Get a longer skirt at you know eight years old.

[00:50:04] So very thankful, very thankful. I'm so glad that you got out and... Oh yes. Are you tapping it all to the I got out? To the hashtag I got out? Yes I follow that because of you. Oh yay. I know, I know. It's amazing. Thank you.

[00:50:21] The important thing is like finding healthy new community you know that's not called T and I think that other thing you said that is so important that you probably didn't even realize when you were doing your social media stuff to connect with people that way when you can connect

[00:50:35] and share it really dissipates at least for me it's just dissipates the shame because so much of the shame and like I'm bad or I'm wrong or something not okay with me.

[00:50:45] That's like that's the underlying doctrine of the group of all these groups doesn't matter if it's a religious cult personal development yoga cult they're saying hey you're going to get this amazing thing heaven on earth enlightenment blah blah blah but you're not good enough.

[00:51:01] In fact your shit really and then you walk away with it and even if you've left you got you got to deal with those feelings right right and it's not fun so when you find out a bunch of other people went through it too you go okay I'm not shit actually we've all

[00:51:14] been our brains have all been hijacked we've all been messed with mind fucked whatever you want to call it and doctorated brainwash cursive control blah blah blah blah someone else was messing with your belief system and you got to rebuild it

[00:51:27] and that takes time to people need people. Yes. And you know shame and guilt live in the dark. I've really felt for me talking and speaking this out has been so healing for me.

[00:51:40] It's like oh wow like you realize just talking it you know it's it's amazing because it's the opposite. It's the opposite of being in the dark you know it's bringing it out into the world.

[00:51:50] You use that you use that it's magical all the credit magical magical shanty pants one more final thought it happens to be anyone listening from your former group who is like what is that shanty pants saying on that podcast. What would you say.

[00:52:05] Oh there are what would you say to them. I say keep listening. Keep listening and you do you boo.

[00:52:12] I actually know there's people that like spy on me they won't follow me but they spy on me on Instagram so it's pretty funny it's pretty funny and I'm like I just getting more and more out there and I love it.

[00:52:23] I'm just like waiting to be like I don't know like attacked from this like in a bigger way I'm like ready for it. Yeah you're pretty invincible now we got your back. What are they going to do mark you mark you again. I'm so scared. Oh gosh no.

[00:52:37] So you know I'm just a point I don't care. I feel like this is my story and from our same group there are a lot of stories much much more awful than mine.

[00:52:48] And so I have no problem being out here and just sharing at least my story and always I always say whenever anything I do whether it's doing a funny video or speaking on a podcast if it can help one person it's worth all the time for me.

[00:53:03] If I can just help one person so I stick to that couldn't agree more. Thank you for sharing. Keep shining that bright light in the darkness. Thank you. I will. Yay. Hi guys.

[00:53:16] What do you got for me Sarah what really sticks out for me is that there's so many groups like this like people write to us all the time about their experiences and a lot of them are exactly like this a small little Bible study or a little Bible study.

[00:53:43] Or a little group, you know studying tarot or yoga or whatever and there's like somebody gets involved and just fucks it all up and suppresses people and makes women subordinate to men. Yeah, 1950s. We'll have that get out of the car sweetheart.

[00:54:01] You don't talk to me like that. You know on a spectrum we're prepping an episode with the asmin Muhammad who grew up in an extremist Muslim community, you know even more heightened but it's exact same women forced to be obedient and subordinate to men.

[00:54:15] So just to wrap it up here we're going to be linking out all of Shandy pants various social media channels for you guys to check it out there's a lot of funny content that you know frankly has nothing to do with cults.

[00:54:25] So if you're on cult overdose she's a good break right Sarah. Yes and some of our videos do have some culty content but either way check it out.

[00:54:33] You can come chat about it on the Instagram over on Patreon and you know the usual follow us on Facebook, Instagram, support our sponsors share the episode especially if you know somebody in a weird little Bible study group and they are taking things too far.

[00:54:48] You can just send them this and they can learn from it. Okay. Bye bye. Till next time. Bye bye. I'm hanging on to the way to my love. If I let go of it all I could leave but I know I won't.

[00:55:32] For the most of our most recommended cult recovery resources visit our website at a little bit culty dot com. And for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called Scar true story of high escape nexium the cult that bound my life.

[00:55:46] It's available on Amazon audible narrated by my wife and at most bookstores. A little bit culty is a talk house podcast and a trace 120 production. We're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy aims with writing research and additional production support by senior producer Jess tardy.

[00:56:02] We're edited mixed and mastered by our rocking producer will Rutherford of citizens of sound and our amazing theme song cultivated is by John Bryant and co written by Nigel Asselin. Thank you for listening.