Cults at Work: Cameron Herold on Corporate Culture

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_06]: This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access. To powder skiing legacy.

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_06]: To independent spirit. North where easy to get to. Meets worlds away.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_09]: The views and opinions expressed by A Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_09]: Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met on love in a quote self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult called Nexium. Heard of it?

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_04]: We got out of there together and on our way out we helped shut it down. Our journey as Nexium whistleblowers was captured in detail on a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_09]: New York Times, babe. Right. Have you heard of it?

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Good morning.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Normally you start the podcast with, good morning. How are you?

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Is that what I sound like?

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_04]: No. I mean, nobody can imitate you.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know if that's a compliment.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_04]: We can imitate your pose. I have a good like Sarah Edmondson pose which you're not going to be able to see until we're on YouTube camera.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_09]: This was a fun episode to prep for and Nippy and I got to take a little break from the normal cult content prep and we watched season three of succession, right?

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_09]: To prep which we show that we love. We love and we thought like we're taking a break but it's also related to this episode.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_09]: And lo and behold, I don't want to give anything away but there's somebody who has initials tattooed into their forehead and guess what those initials are?

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_04]: What's here?

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_09]: K.R. Kendall Roy, the name of the lead in the, I'm not going to, I don't want to give it too much away but spoiler alert.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_04]: You kind of gave away a big, okay.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_09]: Spoiler alert. Skip ahead 15 seconds but I thought, is that like a nod to Nexium or is that just a total coincidence?

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I think Secession came out before all this chaos.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_09]: No, no. Secession season three came out after Nexium was in the headlines. They were filming this during COVID.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah but Kendall, the character was written.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_09]: I know but why did they put the initials on his head?

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Good writing.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Good writing. All right.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_09]: So our guest today, we met and have a kind of bizarre connection. I'll let him explain because I think it's kind of funny.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_09]: But Cameron Harold is, I've actually never met him in person even though he lives in Vancouver and I will blame the pandemic on that one.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_09]: And his busy travel schedule. He's always in various exotic places as a speaker.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_09]: He's actually known as the CEO whisperer. He's the founder of the COO Alliance, author of five business books including Vivid Vision and the founder of the Invest in Your Leaders course.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_04]: He's been paid to speak in all seven continents including Antarctica and is the former COO of 1800 Got Junk which was ranked the number two company to work for in all of Canada

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: and twice ranked number one to work for NBC. It even became a case study at the Harvard Business School.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_09]: He's coached dozens of real companies globally and is known for creating world-class company cultures.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_09]: The publisher of Forbes magazine, Forbes magazine, Alcum's Phil Circle said Cameron Harold is the best speaker I've ever heard.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Cameron has likely said this quote on stages hundreds of times and now regrets it.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Quote, to build an amazing company, it has to be a little bit more than a business and a little bit less than a religion.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_04]: It has to be in the zone of a cult.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_09]: He joins us today to talk about how and when company culture goes too far and becomes culty and what makes a company culture a healthy one.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_09]: Without further ado, Cameron Harold.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_09]: Good morning Cameron, how are you?

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Good, how are you? Good to see you guys.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Good to see you too.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_09]: It's taken a while for us to lock down this conversation but I'm so glad that we did because obviously there's lots to talk about.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_09]: For sure.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_04]: This one was a few months in the making right?

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I actually learned about Sarah before the vow even came out.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Christopher Bennett and I worked together 20 years ago back at Got Junk and Sarah and I were both on his podcast when he was running the Vancouver Film School.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_09]: You might want to tell this part.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_09]: What is our other connection other than the fabulous Christopher Bennett?

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_05]: So Edgar Boone and I, Edgar was a part of ESP which became next to him I guess.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_04]: He opened up Mexico.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_05]: So I met Edgar in 2007 at a program that the Entrepreneurs' Organization hosts at MIT and I've taught there for 15 years and Edgar and I were in the same class for three years at this MIT EO program.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_05]: So I knew Edgar well.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_05]: He actually brought me down to speak in Monterey.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I spoke in the Mexico City chapter for EO.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_05]: When this whole vow kind of came on, I was like totally engrossed in watching and then all of a sudden I saw this sign pop up with his name on a parking spot.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like what the fuck?

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And I had to go in and check to see if it was him and then all of a sudden he appeared on the screen and I just kind of froze.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_05]: It was a little too close to home.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you not know Edgar was part of ESP?

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_04]: We called it ESP then, we didn't call it next to him.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_05]: So I did know he was a part of ESP and I knew what ESP kind of stood for and it's interesting my ex-wife around 2017 did a landmark forum and she walked out at the end of the first day saying, you know, this is bullshit.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I hate all this blah, blah, blah.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think she could go introspective on it and she ended up talking about wanting to look at this ESP program that she'd heard about and I think she'd actually had heard about it through kind of some of the EO members that we knew from Mexico as well.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_05]: So we were very close.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_09]: For the audience that doesn't know EO is Entrepreneurs Organization, correct?

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a network of entrepreneurs all over the world and he would have tapped into that pretty strong as well.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I remember talking to him about it.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_04]: He came down and was running the New York City Center while I was there for a lot of it.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And so Edgar and I worked together, you know, here and there in New York.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_09]: He was a field trainer.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Great guy.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_09]: Great guy.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_09]: We were, I mean we used to be really close I would say and I'm devastated that we haven't spoken since shit hit the fan.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_05]: I sent him a message three days ago or four days ago telling him I was back on the podcast with you guys and haven't heard anything yet.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_09]: You probably won't.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_09]: You probably won't.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we've heard back and forth from each other.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_05]: This might close the door a little bit but I'm going to steal.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's try to keep the friendship going.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he's a good guy and I think like all of us, we had to reconcile something.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_04]: If you don't reconcile it, you're not willing to.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be a longer and more arduous journey.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's interesting that that's our connection.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_09]: But also when we were in Nexium, he was touted as like at least the story we were told is that he used to be, they called him like the Tony Robbins of Mexico.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_09]: And he was running personal development seminars.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_09]: And then when he came and did ESP, he said the rumor has it that he would said to Nancy, this is either a big piece of shit or it's the best thing in the world.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_09]: And by the end of his five days, he's like, this is the best thing in the world and I'm going to bring it to Mexico.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_09]: And so he was sort of like the head sales.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_09]: We called it a field trainer from Mexico and everyone that's in Mexico is there because essentially because of him.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_09]: And so I had heard at the time, like the numbers that was touted was that he was making like $75,000 a month because of the MLM structure of it.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_09]: He recruited so many people, recruited so many people and he was getting commissions from all those people.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_09]: It's hard to walk away from that kind of income and also to admit later, wow, you know, I made a lot of money off the backs of this pervert.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like it's harder to go, wow, I was wrong.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, both.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, knowing Edgar, I don't think him walking away from money and that thing would be his internal.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_09]: No, I know.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's more of like recognizing you backed the wrong, wrong horse.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_04]: So wait a minute, Cameron, since 2007, you've been in the purview of Edgar and Sarah kind of because you're in Vancouver and you never got the pitch.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_05]: I've also dodged landmark and Chip Wilson who started Lulemon and I are friends and a bunch of his very close kind of peers and I are friends.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And I've dodged, I've wanted to get involved because I've wanted to do this growth but now I'm terrified.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh no, we're going to do a whole separate episode on it and other Elgats large group awareness trainings in a separate episode.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_09]: But that is actually one of the things we want to talk about today is how these corporations use Elgats or like you'd call it like a business seminar.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_09]: As part of the company culture.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_09]: We're going to get into that before we do.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Nipi, you want to start with the first?

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I guess one of the things that we were thinking about in having this conversation was is having kind of a standard.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Are you familiar with Stephen Hassan's Byte model?

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_05]: I think you've talked about him on the podcast.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_05]: I've talked about it.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_05]: That doesn't every episode so yes.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_04]: He brought it together on the shoulders of some other people but in essence it's when groups try to control your behavior be eyes information when they try to influence the information and access their information that you have.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And then the thoughts they try to influence your thoughts encourage you know what's positive and negative thoughts are shut down and then the emotion fear and gaslighting yourself.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_04]: So they have a grasp on your emotions.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_04]: So in essence that's how they flex their control.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_09]: There's a spectrum of that just to clarify.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Most people come to terms of the fact that like what is a cult is very nebulous and we use the Byte model to say like the more of those things that they do, the more destructive it is and the less they do it's the less destructive.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_09]: And for example like if you can leave and not be shunned and you can like come and go as you please that's less of a cult than more of a you know there might be some other aspects that make it culty but it's not destructive per se.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_09]: So it's a spectrum for analysis just to back that up right?

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_05]: No it's funny I'm rolling some past companies through my head now and kind of going on the B part like where were we?

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Well that's the thing when does it be, I mean we want to get into when it becomes bad because if you're trying to build something behavior and it goes from as you well know

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_04]: incorporate settings to sports teams right?

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_04]: You need to have you know a sports team bought into the coaches philosophy if you will.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And if they're not and the behavior is contrary to what the inertia of the team is, you have problems making those distinctions is important.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_09]: You know our structure with survivors is how did you get in like what hooked you, how did you get out you know what were the red flags along the way, how did you wake up and how are you healing which is a different context for you

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_09]: because you're not a survivor per se but you did come to me with like okay I used to say that you need to have and we said this already in the intro but you need to have your company in the line of a cult

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_09]: and you don't do that anymore so can you take us back a little bit, can you give us like a little bit of your history what led you up to the point that you realize that you're not going to say that anymore just to bring our audience up to speed with who you are?

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah for sure so I was groomed as an entrepreneur, grew up in a family of entrepreneurs.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I did a talk that's on the main TED website about raising entrepreneurial kids so all I ever knew was being entrepreneurial or being an entrepreneur when I was 20 so I you know normal kind of jobs and entrepreneurial ventures

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_05]: when I was 20 I got involved in a company called College Pro Painters and College Pro went on to become the world's largest residential house painting company

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_05]: and the CEO and founder of College Pro who I'm still in touch with today Greg Clark used to say and I remember hearing it in 1986 when I got involved to build an amazing company

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_05]: it has to be a little bit more than a business and a little bit less than a religion and it has to be in the zone of a cult

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_05]: and I was like that's fucking cool. Like for me it was like that's amazing, I get it like cult culture that's so cool

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_05]: and I was 20 and I didn't understand what the bad parts of a cult were so I just thought that anything that we could borrow from cults or religions or groups was really cool

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_05]: in fact in 1998 I actually went to an Amway session, no desire to ever get involved in Amway

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_05]: and not just to watch a 5000 person session being run I was so blown away that by the end of the session I was standing talking to the CEO of Amway International

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_05]: because I was so blown and I'm like what the fuck just happened to me, like I just got pulled in again

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_05]: and then leaving there built another company with Floyd Autobody left there after about four years and came on as the 14th employee

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_05]: at a company that we built out called 1-800 Got Junk. We built that out to 3100 employees in six years

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_05]: we were on Oprah, lots of press and we ranked two years in a row as the number one company to work for in British Columbia

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_05]: my final or second last year at number two in all of Canada to work for

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_05]: so we had this amazing strong culture and then since then coached lots of companies and coached a lot of companies who have gone on to build fantastic cultures

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I coached Nurse Next Door who went on to be number one in BC, two companies that went on to be number one in Australia

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_05]: one that is number two on Glassdoor another number 12 on Glassdoor blah blah blah

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I've been paid to speak in 26 countries about building culture and I've used that phrase a little bit more than a business

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_05]: a little bit less than a religion until I saw the vow and now every time it starts coming out of my mouth it makes me sick

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_05]: and I'm scared of where or did we go too far

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Sarah I reached out to you even before, way before talking about the podcast

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_05]: before you started your podcast I actually wanted to hire you to come and work for one of my companies

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_05]: because I'm like you're such a great recruiter we have this group and I could bring you into the group

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_05]: you'd be an amazing recruiter like as long as we can get really close but never cross that line

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_05]: that's kind of where I am is toggling I think

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_09]: You're the perfect person to talk to about this because the people who I think do run corporations that are unhealthily

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_09]: culty or toxic whatever you want to call it wouldn't be able to come on this podcast and have it on as conversation

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_09]: I think when you say you feel sick saying it I think that's a good indication of you go like hey that's not right

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's also an indication of you're the type of person that's not going to go down the road of abusing the powers that you have as a result

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't think I ever abused them cognizantly but I'm curious whether we abused them without knowing

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_05]: thinking that what we were doing was building an amazing culture and then now looking back through a different lens going like

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_05]: was that okay like when we really push core values constantly and you mentioned core values in every meeting and you celebrate core values

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_05]: and you high five on core values you talk about core values in daily huddle is that culty or is that just a really good company

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Well let's figure it out right let's figure it out right now on this podcast

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_04]: These are the questions I mean I think they're oh this is so interesting so interesting

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_09]: Before you woke up what were some of the things you said you should have before you had that recognition that that wasn't a good thing

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_05]: So one very early thing in my career where I did something for the company and then was gas lit and I didn't understand it until the vow

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_05]: So I didn't understand it I felt bad at the time and I was pissed off at the time but I didn't understand it until 20 years later

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Nipah you'll probably identify with this 1994 and it was the Toronto Blue Jays were in Game 7 of the World series

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_05]: and the college pro international president's dinner was on the same night as Game 7

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_05]: My dad had four tickets for Game 7 and I said I can't go to the game

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_04]: This will be 1993

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_05]: 93 and I said I can't go to the game because if I go to the game then I'm gonna miss the president's dinner

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_05]: So I gave my ticket to my uncle I went to the president's dinner that night at the dinner

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I was talking to the CEO and I said told him what I did and he goes dude you're a fucking idiot like I totally would have gone to the game

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_05]: I was only 26 years old like I didn't know if he was serious or what was going on

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I did something that I didn't want to do for the good of the company because they didn't want to be shunned

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_05]: and then it felt like I had done the wrong thing anyway

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_05]: So that was an experience that and I love college pro

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_05]: I still talk about college pro painters to this day

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Amazing company I learned everything from it

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_05]: We then when we were building 1-800-GOT-CHUNK on purpose did stuff to create an amazing culture

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Like I wanted to create a magnet for employees

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_05]: So everyone wore branded clothing

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_05]: We taught people when you sit at an event where to put your jacket so the logo on the back of the jacket gets seen the most

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_05]: We gave everybody nicknames

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_05]: You guys know Christopher Bennett his nickname is high gloss

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_05]: He'll kill me for saying that out loud

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_05]: But I gave him the nickname in his group interview because he's high gloss

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_05]: We had sayings up on our company walls

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_05]: We pushed out the press like we leveraged the media

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Like we really understood how to how to get the message out and attract people in

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't think any of that was bad

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_05]: But we certainly ostracized people in a way if they didn't come to a company event

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_05]: We certainly like oh that guy doesn't wear the blue wig enough

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_05]: He doesn't wear the jacket he didn't get the nickname

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't think anything was done on purpose

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_05]: But I certainly look back now and say wow like if you're an introvert

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_05]: You wouldn't have loved our culture as much

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_05]: If you were just a good person doing a nine to five and you wanted to go home to your family

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And you didn't come out to every like handing out blue wigs to cheer on the Canucks

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_05]: You would have been ostracized

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_05]: So those are all things that I look back at now

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Well there's some ways to think about it

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And I believe when you watch someone like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_04]: They're very extreme to most people and what it takes to be successful

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Yet they understand what it means to be successful

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Right so they create an atmosphere and culture

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_04]: That most people who live in a mediocre realm or less than successful realm

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Are going to look at and say that's extreme culty or because they would never do that

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_04]: So it sounds like there's a level of commitment in a culture you're trying to achieve

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And say a sense of excellence which is I think it puts the exploration in a realm of capitalism versus cult

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I think the essence of an entrepreneur wants to create that entrepreneur

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_04]: To ensure their success the same way a coach is like

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_04]: You do the same thing every day at practice

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_04]: You do it hard and that's why a coach is there to push you to do it

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_05]: And I didn't ever want to build an average company

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_05]: You know I wasn't striving to be average

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_05]: It's interesting you keep mentioning sports because the assistant coach for the Vancouver Canucks

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_05]: The hockey team Mike Johnson at the time

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_05]: He and I were trading ideas with each other on how to actually take culture into the organization

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I was teaching him what we were doing in business for the Canucks

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_05]: And he was teaching me what they were doing with the Canucks to bring it into the business world

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_05]: They totally crossed over

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I was down visiting their offices

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_05]: It was really trying to understand how to build that magnetic force into your company

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_05]: And I know that we didn't do anything wrong on purpose

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm curious where companies do

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_04]: That's where I think the conversation has room to be stretched in the thinking

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like okay so we have this paradigm

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I think you can maybe make an argument has come really accepted in the capitalistic world

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I had a conversation with a friend of mine about how they live in Europe

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And they actually live life in a way that's very different than entrepreneurs

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And so for me it'd be what would make it bad and when does it go bad right Sarah?

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_05]: It's interesting you bring up the Europe though because I've worked with companies in 26 countries

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And they don't love the North American culture idea

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't love it

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_09]: No

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I see that it works

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_09]: You know in researching this episode and looking at other companies that have that kind of moniker like Apple

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_09]: The cult of Apple

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Which by the way we had a former coach who was an Apple consultant with an Apple tattoo on their back

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Two of our got junk employees one of our employees Jesse Corzan had a permanent tattoo of the 1800 got junk logo

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And then Nick Wood one of our franchisees had the logo permanently tattooed as well

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And we thought it was a badge of honor like that's amazing look at these guys

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_09]: Definitely extreme

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_09]: And there's an article I read about how like what specifically about it makes it culty

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that one of the things across the board with all our episodes

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_09]: When we look at MLMs and now corporations is what you're signing up for what you're getting

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_09]: Is there any dishonesty about when you commit to say working for something like Apple or any company

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Is it laid out for you of this is what it's going to be and I think that's part of the thing that's I don't know

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_09]: If it's just shitty or culty or whatever you want to call it when you're signing up

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_09]: What I think would be more ethical and not culties to say this is what's going to be expected of you

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_09]: You're gonna have to put your family and everything else other than work as a lower priority than

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_09]: Working at Mac or whatever it is

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_09]: But I think that's that's one of the things that's problematic is that it doesn't happen that way

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_09]: Just like somebody who's groomed for sex trafficking

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Oftentimes that happens as they're signing up for a modeling class

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_09]: You know and the person who's running the modeling class is planning on sex trafficking

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_09]: You know tell them that

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_05]: I learned a concept called the reverse cell

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_05]: This is what I did when I hired Kimball Musk Elon's brother back in 1993

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Was I told him how hard it was going to be for him to be a franchisee for college pro painters

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_05]: That he almost didn't believe me and because I made the job sound so challenging and so brutal

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_05]: But if you do it, you're gonna have all these rewards

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_05]: He's like I need to do it sure enough. He did it and he's like this is really hard

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And so yeah, I did that all the time

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_05]: I told people how brutal it was going to be but they still wanted it

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Because we did a good job at making sure the magnet was strong

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_09]: So I think that's key into making it not

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Everyone knows in Vancouver because that's where Lululemon was founded

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_09]: That everyone in Lululemon takes landmark

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_09]: And that's you know, I think that's part of the we know that now

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know if that was part of the it was up front about like if you're going to work for Lululemon

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_09]: You have to take this personal development

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_09]: And I want to just do a little section deviation caveat about personal development

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Because in my part for this I spoke to Yanja Lalich and Pat Ryan

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_09]: Two of our experts that we speak to you about such things

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_09]: Both of them said that one of the major problems they saw with corporate culture

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_09]: That is cult is that there's this emphasis on these workshops

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_09]: And I know that you coach and you teach workshops

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_09]: I saw you I wanted your videos at a whiteboard and was like super triggered

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Because I just am so allergic to that stuff

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_09]: Not to say that it's all bad but like that's just where I'm at

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_04]: You have a whiteboard Sarah so you're not

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_09]: I even have a whiteboard but just the whole vibe of it is just ugh to me

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_09]: But I know that you're a good person and we'll get to that in a minute

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_09]: My point is that what's the problem with that is that things like landmark

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_09]: And other training seminars brings up a lot of personal stuff

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_09]: It's not appropriate in a workplace for your leader

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_09]: Your boss or your managers or whatever to know about like your childhood wounds

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah that's an area we never went

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_05]: We would coach people on their personal development plan

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_05]: On their goals, on their dreams

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_05]: We never went anywhere on their past or on issues or on their psyche

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_05]: We made everybody watch the movie The Vow

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_05]: A couple times and we brought people from The Vow up to speak

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Like John Astor, F and John D. Martini didn't speak

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Wait The Vow?

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_05]: We just thought that was like yeah

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Not The Vow I'm sorry the secret the secret

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_09]: I was gonna say this is the one time

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah we made everybody watch the show The Secret

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And we just thought there was some powerful stuff there around quantum physics and quantum mechanics

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_05]: But we never went anywhere weird with it for sure

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_05]: We certainly didn't have collateral on anybody except after a night out of drinking

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Right

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_05]: They had collateral on me at that point

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_09]: Well that is a problem in general like blurred boundaries

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_09]: And this is like just as a caveat we want to say for our listeners

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Again we're not saying this company is a cult

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_09]: And that's we want to give people tools to analyze things that they are in

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_09]: Or have been part of and so they can decide for themselves if they want to continue

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_09]: You know like is this a healthy environment? Is this what I want to do or not?

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_09]: But we're gonna do a whole other series on the LGATS

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_09]: On the large group awareness trainings

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_09]: But the other main problem with workshops in general

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_09]: Is that it's very broad stroke it's very paint by numbers

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_09]: And from what I understand with landmark there's a couple hundred people in a ballroom

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_09]: You're all going through the same process

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_09]: That can be very deep and triggering and bring up trauma and all sorts of stuff

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_09]: And it's like if someone has had a bunch of trauma they don't need to

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_09]: They can't be up on a stage talking about some personal thing right

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_09]: So there's a problem with the personal development component of what most of these cultie companies insist on doing

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_09]: If we're gonna look at the red flags for people to analyze that'd be a big one

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Well I think you hear you saying is there needs to be an explicit ask

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And expectations are clear on the subjects or the people that you were trying to

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Like here's what we're gonna do here's how we're gonna do it as opposed to some subversive

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah like when we would have all of our employees wear corporate branded clothing

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And you know we would give them these fleece jackets that had the massive letters on the back

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_05]: We knew we were getting advertising off of it but we weren't forcing them to wear it

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_05]: They were probably you know nudged and pushed to wear it

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_05]: But we just saw that as great gorilla marketing

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that cultie?

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_09]: I think the question is what happens if you don't wear it

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_09]: Do people get shunned or ostracized or like called out or teased

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_05]: No but the leadership team we would have thought that you're more bought in if you wore it than if you didn't

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's where I think there could be some gray area of I want approval from my

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_04]: My boss

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_04]: That glades from my boss

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I want them to see me as someone who's committed and a hard worker

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_04]: If I don't wear this are they gonna think less of me and that can be interpreted as little

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But it also might be true you're not bought it

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_09]: Well there is a structure like in any company there is an authority ranking structure right

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_09]: And that's the problem is that if somebody comes in and wants to please

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_09]: And is willing to do things to let go up the ranks

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_09]: That's on to a certain extent is on them but it's also as a leader

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_09]: They're specifically choosing people who are going to be obedient and fall in line

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_09]: That's where the abuse of power comes from is like if someone's gonna hire someone who they know they can manipulate

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_09]: So that they can have their needs met as the leader

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think a company would ever excel if that's who they were trying to hire either

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_05]: See there we go

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_05]: You just don't do well

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you're communicating as a leader that if you don't do this

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_04]: This doesn't happen a certain cancellation or they don't get to move up if they don't behave in a certain way

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_09]: And also from the research I did it seems like a lot of companies have a whole process around the enrollment

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Like the hiring process to begin with

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_09]: Like there's things that you look for in a potential recruit right from the beginning

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_09]: And just like tied into next year for a second

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_09]: You know we had the sashes right and in every training there'd be at least one

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_09]: If there's a 30 person training one maybe two people who'd be like what you want me to wear a sash

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Usually somebody who was already very successful in their life already an entrepreneur in their life

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_09]: And they were like fuck this or they'd grown up like Jehovah's Witness

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_09]: Or they'd grown up in a setting that was a potential call and they saw the red flags

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Either way one of those people would say that and we would let them leave

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_09]: And Keith would say it's good that you got them out because they'd be a bad apple

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_09]: And that he'd call the sashes the guardian at the gates

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_09]: And we thought it was because they couldn't pay tribute to what he had built

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_09]: Because the sashes were like the ranking system of one's growth

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_09]: If they weren't willing to call him vanguard it meant he was suppressive

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Or it was another issue

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, but by point being that now I see it is he's weeding out the non-compliance

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_09]: He was weeding out somebody who wasn't going to go along with it and be like you know more malleable

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_09]: We tell our stories, we change the world

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_09]: A little bit culty is proud to support the hashtag I Got Out project

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_09]: Which empowers survivors of cultic abuse to share their stories online

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_09]: As a catalyst for education, prevention and healing

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Learn more about the hashtag I Got Out movement

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_09]: And find resources at IGotOut.org

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[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_04]: You know I was thinking about it just the other day

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_07]: You were thinking about the chicken salad?

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[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_04]: No disrespect to you

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean I'm gonna try to not be offended but I get where you're coming from

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, just maybe I manifested it but it turns out

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_08]: He's manifesting now

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[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I was taught back at College Pro Painters and I carried this forward with virtually every brand that I've tried to build into these magnets

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_05]: One of the traits you hire for is affiliation

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_05]: People that want to be a part of a group

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_05]: And those are people that were a part of their church group, they're a part of student council

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_05]: They were a part of a team, they were in scouts or fevers or whatever, girl guides

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And if you can get people that like to be a part of those groups

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Which was me all in my whole life

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Like I said to you at some point

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like if I had met you two, I would have been so deep into this

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Like because it was so up my alley

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Like I would have been chasing down the next green sash or whatever like was above

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_05]: That's been my, I was like the top cub, the top scout

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Like the top of student council president of my fraternity

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Fuck it was like bring it on, I wanted to be in all of it

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And I didn't see any of that

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_05]: But so I've taught companies to recruit for that

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Because if you hire people that want to be a part of a group

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_05]: They'll wear your branded clothing, they'll come to your retreats

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_05]: They'll come to social hours, they'll be at the company picnics

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't see it, I didn't and don't see anything wrong with that

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Unless you're doing it to the detriment of their family or

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Right

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_05]: I still think that's a good trait, isn't it?

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I would say absolutely

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_09]: I have the trait too so I think it's good

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_09]: There are downsides to it so let's figure that out right

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_04]: You know if you look at a great politician

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_04]: They see the office as something that they serve

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And they become great statesmen

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Right

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's for whatever it is that they're doing

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Bad ones want the office for themselves

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And the office is to serve them

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_04]: So I would make a case that yeah

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I would make a, I mean narcissists and all those people

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Like they have a front of this group that's all these things

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And he's serving it

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_04]: But if you're truly a good leader

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_04]: You recognize how you serve it

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And that company should be a reflection

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Or take on the personality of a leader done right

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Right so you're probably not imbuing it with any sort of abusiveness

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I agree

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Because there has to be structures and hierarchies in society

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And systems in society that do serve the purpose that they're set up for

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I don't think what you're doing is bad

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think so either

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm just gonna say like what was bad for me

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_09]: And this is like I think slightly different for you

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_09]: Cameron because you didn't get into a cult

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_09]: And I'm really glad I didn't meet you in 2010

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_09]: Because I absolutely would have recruited you

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Or vice versa

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_09]: But like

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_09]: That desire and I've had to do a lot of obviously self reflection in my healing process

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_09]: But my desire for community and my desire to belong

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_09]: And be a part of this thing blinded me

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_09]: That's what I had to come to terms with

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Because I was so bought into that whole thing

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_09]: I was like no that can't be bad

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_04]: No also you were used

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah but like we're looking at the whole dynamic of corporate culture

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_09]: And I know you haven't seen it Cameron

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_09]: But there's a movie The Circle with Emma Watson and Tom Hanks

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_09]: Which I think I saw when I was in Nexium

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm pretty sure

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_04]: We did, we didn't finish it though

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_09]: We didn't finish it because I don't think my opinion an excellent movie per se

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_09]: But I remember thinking she joins this company that's kind of like Apple

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_09]: And she walks in and it's like super tech

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_09]: And community and supportive

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_09]: And all these like they support her dad who's got MS

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_09]: And it's like your family now

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_09]: And I was like you know that's I can totally relate to her

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_09]: Like I would be fully bought in and I've had experiences

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Like when I walked into EA Electronic Arts here in Vancouver

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_09]: Doing voiceover and motion capture

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_09]: And seeing like the cafeteria

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_09]: Like everyone's playing soccer at lunch

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_09]: And it's a vibe and it's like this is fucking amazing

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_09]: Been there

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Right? Isn't it EA Amazing?

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_09]: It's amazing

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Right and also the Lululemon headquarters down in Kitsilano

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah we took people for tours to their Burnaby location

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_05]: And we would have people come into the tours of our Winnipeg

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Or got junk location to show them what amazing was

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah EA was spectacular

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I've been to the head offices of Google and Microsoft

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'll tell you Google is a culture

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Like a great culture

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Microsoft's like a morgue

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_05]: You walk through Microsoft's like there's no energy

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_05]: There's no enthusiasm

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like meh

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_05]: And Google you don't want to leave

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_09]: That's why I don't use any Microsoft product

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_09]: Right?

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_05]: But Google decided culture was critical

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And Microsoft never had the discussion

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Microsoft just always focused on product

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_09]: And it's definitely bleh

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_09]: It's for people who are bleh

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Sorry for my friends who use Microsoft

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_09]: But you are bleh

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Their offices are all single little offices

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_05]: They're like little tombs

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Or little little creamator

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Or ms morgues

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_05]: They're all they are

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_05]: You know they're these tombs

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_05]: And a single person beige offices in these halls

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And then you walk into Google and it's like open

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_05]: And there's energy and it's cool and it's fun

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And people it's the same people

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_05]: It's all computer engineers

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Right

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't think culture

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_05]: When people say oh it's the cult of Google

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_05]: No it's just a really fucking great company

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think there is

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_05]: I want to know what that line is

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Where they go too far

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_09]: I think one of the lines is when your

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Work life becomes the absolute priority

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_09]: To the detriment to your other values

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_09]: And that's not what you planned on

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_09]: And you get to the point where like

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_09]: You can't succeed in the company

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Unless you make that change

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_04]: That's every lawyer

[00:35:13] Right

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay this is great

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_04]: So wouldn't you say that excellence demands

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_04]: A certain amount of your time

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah but if you were agreeing to that

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_09]: From the beginning

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_09]: I think that's the part that's problematic

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Like when you're saying

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_09]: I am committing to this

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_09]: And I know that I'm putting it first above

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Anything else forever

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_04]: The caveat to that is

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's say Cameron hires us

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And he enrolls us into the vision

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Right

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And then we start to recognize

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I really want to do this

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm two years in

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I recognize you know what

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I need to spend X amount of more hours a week

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I really want to achieve this thing

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Do you want to

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Or do you feel like you have to

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_09]: Like are you coerced into it

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Even as we're going

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And we're building

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_04]: What we're building Sarah

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_04]: We start to recognize

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh I want to do this

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_04]: That's going to require a little bit more time

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_09]: We realize it takes more time

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_09]: When we decide that we're going to do it

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_09]: There isn't somebody above us

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_09]: Dangling something

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_09]: And abusing their power

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_09]: To extract something for us

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_09]: For their benefit

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Employees can quit

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_05]: And go to another company though

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_05]: It's much easier to quit a company

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_05]: And go somewhere else

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Than it is to quit a cult

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_09]: If you can't quit

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Or if you feel like you can't quit

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_09]: Or there's like

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_09]: Some major downside

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_05]: I've always had an issue with that

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Like just quit

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like you know

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_05]: I can't move

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_05]: No you can

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_05]: You can just move

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Well there's some sort of force

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Or abuse of power

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_04]: That goes on

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And the other person doesn't know it

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll share something that actually has

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Divided families with company cultures

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_05]: And it is similar to

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I think what happens inside of a cult

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Like with Urim with Nexium

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's all of the acronyms

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_05]: And the phrases that mean something

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Inside of the company

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Or inside of the cult

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_05]: We had all of these things that we did

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_05]: And phrases that we used

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And you know

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_05]: If I said that we had daily huddle

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Near the garage

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_05]: And we were all wearing our blue wigs

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Saying who does what by when

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_05]: And finishing with our huddle

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_05]: You'd be like

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_05]: What the fuck are you talking about

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think the spouses and friends

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Felt like outsiders

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_05]: To the insiders of that culture

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Right

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Like also if you feel better about yourself

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_09]: Because you have that dialogue

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_09]: Or that lingo

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_09]: Right there's a righteousness

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_05]: No it wasn't a right

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_05]: I was just

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_05]: I was excited

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Because everybody else was in these

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Dead-end jobs

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_05]: And I always liked the companies

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_05]: I was building

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_05]: I've always admired companies

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_05]: That had strong company cultures

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay so let me devil's advocate that

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's say

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I hate to keep bringing it back

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_04]: To sports teams

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think it's a good thing

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_04]: When you go to a sports team

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll give you an example

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Strong right 82 cross shoot

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Z motion on A

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a language

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_04]: We all have

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_04]: When we get into a huddle

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And then clap

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And then go run a play

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And then we go home

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Take showers

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And we go with our families

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And we don't even talk about

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_04]: You know

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Strong right 82 cross shoot

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Right

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's why football teams

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Score more than soccer teams

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Because they all run around

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_05]: On the field without having a huddle

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_05]: You need to have a huddle

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't know what you're doing out there

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_09]: And we were all

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_09]: We had a huddle

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_09]: You know that

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_09]: You saw the huddle

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_09]: In our

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_09]: In the vow right

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_09]: We'd get together

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Put our arms around each other

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_09]: And say

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_09]: We are committed to our success

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Every day

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_04]: So when does it become

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you have a similar atmosphere

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Right

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Is it bleed into the personal life

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And then

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_04]: You know some people take their work home

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes for sure

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_05]: The good people would

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Or the people that want to excel

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_05]: In any company

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_05]: I think take their work home

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Our daily huddle

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_05]: You could go on YouTube

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And look at 1-800-GOT-CHUNK-DAILY-HUDDLE

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_05]: It's been written up in my books

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_05]: We emulated what was done inside of football teams

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_05]: We followed what Walmart would do with their daily huddles

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Which is kind of culty

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_05]: We had a company cheer

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_05]: We knew that we were raising the energy of people

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_05]: We did it at 11 o'clock in the morning

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Because it was the first period where people's energy dropped

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_05]: So we wanted to give them a spike before lunch

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Like it was all on purpose

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I know this

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_04]: True

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_04]: 11 o'clock is that witching hour

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah and 2 o'clock is the next one

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_09]: When we saw Out for Blood in Silicon Valley

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Have you seen that Cameron?

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Not yet, no

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay check it out

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if that's culty

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Or if that's just like fraud

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, here's what I wanted to bring up

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_09]: When they showed the corporate culture

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_09]: It's both

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_09]: When they showed the culture

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_09]: It was like oh my god

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_09]: That's just like

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_09]: They had these like retreats

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_09]: And that was like Vanguard Week

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_09]: And you know there's the people coming up on the stage

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_09]: And like rah rah in the audience

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_09]: And like you know getting everyone into it

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_09]: And like just the corporate

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_09]: It sounds a little bit like what you described Google as

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_05]: We had Brian at 1-800-GOT-CHUNK

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Road into the western base shore

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_05]: For our annual conference

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Riding on a real live camel

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_05]: That we brought the camel in from Albert Ims

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Swear to God, 2007

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_05]: He rode into the western base shore

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Riding a camel

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Because we wanted to talk about the humps

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And the ups and downs of being a franchisee

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Brilliant

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_05]: But again, we just thought that was an amazing

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Fun stunt

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Right

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_09]: So go back to Theranos for a second

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_09]: She was lying from the beginning

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_09]: She owned it in the things

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_09]: In the documentary saying

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm doing fake it till you make it

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Right and not like

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_09]: That's a major problem

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_09]: If the person at the top

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Is presenting one thing

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_09]: And actually doing another

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_09]: So I think like

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_09]: All of those things that you've mentioned

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Aren't problems in and of itself

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_09]: It's like are you doing it though

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_09]: For another purpose

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like if Cameron's starting his business

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And he has a culture that thinks

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_04]: They're in line with the vision

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And Cameron knows that's not true

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_04]: There you go

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I've actually codified something

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I have a registered trademark called the Vivid Vision

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Which is a four or five page description

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Of your company three years in the future

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_05]: And we try to share that with all

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_05]: The employees, customers and suppliers

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_05]: So everyone's bought into the future

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Into the dream of what we're building

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Excited about what we're building

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_05]: That's kind of culty, right

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_05]: But it's also powerful

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_05]: And it aligns people and it's amazing

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_09]: I watched your TED Talk about that

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_09]: And I have to tell you

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm pretty sure that Keith saw that TED Talk

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_09]: And stole it

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Because he has this thing

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_09]: Called Infinity Goals

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_09]: Which is very similar to your Vivid Vision

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_09]: And we were always writing out

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_09]: Our three year and five year

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_09]: In first person like

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_09]: I wake up

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_09]: I do yoga on my balcony

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Overlooking the water

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_09]: I have my raw food chef

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_09]: Preparing breakfast

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_09]: While my children are getting

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_09]: Tutored in Mandarin

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So Cameron, you contributed

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_04]: To our curriculum

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_05]: I can tell you where Keith learned it

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Because he would have learned it from Edgar

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I taught it to Edgar in 2007

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Originally it was called the Painted Picture

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_05]: And Edgar heard about it

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_05]: In 2007, eight, nine for me

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_05]: So he probably would have related it

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_05]: If they got to Keith that might be good

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_09]: Isn't this crazy

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_09]: The interwovenness of Nexium

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_09]: And Cameron Harold

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_09]: What would you say now that you

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Like you've been through this experience

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_09]: And you've watched the vow

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_09]: If people are in a corporation

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_09]: What would you say are some of the red flags

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_09]: To look for from the beginning

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_09]: With the steps along the way

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Or the behaviors or attitude of the leadership

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_09]: Or what not

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_05]: I think we're lucky now

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Because we have platforms like Glassdoor and Indeed

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Where we can actually read comments

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Of prior employees

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And we can see what people on the outside are saying

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Which we don't have with what you went through

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't have that platform

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_05]: But you can go on Indeed

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And read what all the former employees

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Have been saying about that jerk of a leader

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Or that horrible company

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that would be one place to go for sure

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_09]: I never heard of it, so that's great

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I would for sure try to really understand

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_05]: What the company vacation policy and our policy is

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I've always given all my employees

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Five weeks paid vacation

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And I make sure they use it

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Like I push them to actually take the days off

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think you want to make sure

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_05]: That you have that healthy balance

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, that's a good red flag to quantify

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_09]: So is there a place where you can air your grievances

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Without being gaslit?

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_05]: It's tough, right?

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Because so often people

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_05]: If the company gets bigger

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_05]: They try to go to HR

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_05]: And then all of a sudden

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_05]: You've got politics creeping in

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Because now you're talking to HR

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_05]: You're not talking to me

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Then people are worried to go talk to their boss

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Because if they do

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Their boss has now got a black mark against them

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_05]: That might not be good

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think it's really tough in the corporate world

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm not sure that

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a way around that

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Other than working for really good people

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Who really care about you as humans

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's I guess why people would

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_05]: You know what's the saying

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_05]: People don't quit companies

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_05]: They quit their boss

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_09]: There's a fine line because I think

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_09]: One of the things that is problematic

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_09]: If you can't express a different opinion

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Without being punished

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Like if conformity is the only option

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_09]: Then that's a huge red flag

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_09]: Like if you feel like you can't speak freely

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's true of sadly

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Of a lot of larger companies

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_05]: My fiance used to work for Ticketmaster

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And was always talking about the politics

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Sadly inside of the organization

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Where senior leadership would never truly

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Say what they felt because they were always having

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_05]: To try to stickhandle around

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_05]: All these other issues

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Which is I would die

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I would get slaughtered in a corporate world

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I actually at one point

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I coached the CEO of Sprint

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Who went on

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_05]: We talked about we work in the preview

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_05]: But he went on to become the chairman

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Of we work after the whole falling out of we work

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I would have gotten destroyed at Sprint

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I could never be a political person

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Right, I'm always this entrepreneurial environment

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think in a lot of companies politics

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_05]: When she get passed 200 employees

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I think politics is sadly part of the culture

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Sucks

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_05]: So having to be guarded around your boss

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that sadly just happens

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_04]: That wouldn't last long in that

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_05]: There's great companies out there

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_05]: That don't have that

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I haven't done enough of a deep dive

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Into we work

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_09]: I know there's a series about it

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_09]: And people have asked for an episode on it

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_09]: And Nipi had a membership here for a while

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_09]: That ended when COVID started

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_09]: And I love going there

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_09]: They had kombucha on tap

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_09]: It was such a dynamic place to work

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_09]: And share space with people

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_09]: And again it just seems like it came down to

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Some problems with the leadership

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_09]: I haven't done the deep dive on that guy

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_09]: But it's transparency, honesty, ethics

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_09]: At the helm is what's key

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_09]: And I think in our case

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_09]: When you have somebody who's claiming

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_09]: To be the most ethical, honorable man in the world

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_09]: And is actually quite the opposite of that

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_09]: Anything can be made okay

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Under that false premise

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_09]: And you wouldn't be able to know that

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_09]: Like, you know, if we believe

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Or project our honesty and good values

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_09]: And idealism onto the leaders

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_09]: Which I think is something that happens

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_09]: To understand, you know, projection

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_09]: And we talked about that

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_09]: In our episode of Mark Vicente

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_09]: If a leader knows that

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_09]: It can always be flipped back

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_09]: If you are to express something

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_09]: That is, say, a concern or something negative

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_09]: It can always be put on the person

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_09]: As that's just a projection

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_09]: But the thing that I'd want our listeners to know

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Is that we're always projecting

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_09]: We never know what's actually

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_09]: And this is something I learned in Nexium ironically

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_09]: But it's not from that

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_09]: It's from, like, you know, therapy

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_09]: And just basic psychology 101

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_09]: You know, like I'd be looking at you right now

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Cameron and you're sitting back

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_09]: And I'm going, oh, he's interested

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_09]: Or I could be like, oh, he's bored

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Or whatever, like my projection is

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_09]: I will never know

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_09]: If you're projecting, if I'm saying

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_09]: Something's not right here

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_09]: Or I have a concern about X, Y and Z

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_09]: The leadership can always say

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_09]: That's a projection

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_09]: That's one form of gaslighting

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_09]: Or what did you say to me earlier?

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Nipi, this is something we heard all the time in Nexium

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_09]: If I said, like, okay, I'm upset about something

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Or like, blah, blah, blah

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_09]: Nipi said, well, we have tools for that

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_09]: In other words, you can work on that

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_09]: Like go work on that

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Because your reaction is the problem

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_09]: Not the thing you're reacting to

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_05]: I was asked the other day

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_05]: If an employee wants to work on

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Little side business projects of their own

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Should you allow them to do that?

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And my quick answer was yes

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Because they're going to anyway

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_05]: And if you don't allow them to do it

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Then they're having to lie to you

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_05]: I think we have to actually

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Let our employees run side businesses

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_05]: We have to let our employees have normal lives

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_05]: We have to understand that

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes the reason they show up in the morning

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And they're not bought in

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Or they're not seeming interested

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Is because their spouse is fighting with them

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Or they're having a problem with their kid

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Or, you know, they're struggling with depression

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Like there's all this other shit

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think leaders tend to force

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_05]: The company values or the company agenda first

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Without thinking about the human

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's something to watch out for

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Keyword force

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_09]: If you're the kind of person like Cameron and I

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_09]: That we like these groups

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_09]: And we like to excel in the groups

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_09]: That that can potentially blind us

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_09]: To the perhaps not so altruistic intentions

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_09]: Of the leader

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_09]: That's one of my takeaways here

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_09]: With this

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's interesting

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Even in the franchising world

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_05]: One of the areas that many franchisors

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Are misaligned

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_05]: I was lucky to work with two of the best

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Where our franchisees also made a lot of money

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_05]: But often cases the franchisor

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Is only trying to do two things

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Sell more franchises

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_05]: And get their franchisees

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_05]: To do a lot more in revenue

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Because they make royalties off of that

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_05]: But they're not focusing on helping

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_05]: The franchisee make profit

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And they're driving the franchisee's

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Relationships

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_05]: You know

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Avoid your family

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Work harder

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Work weekends

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Work nights

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Come to the company

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Pick make fly the flag

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Drive the truck

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Only for the sake of the franchisor

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's dangerous too

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_09]: And I think probably like as a tip

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_09]: To our listeners who are trying to figure out

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Where they stand with a particular group

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_09]: Or company or whatever

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_09]: Is have they actually

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Done a thorough background check

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Nippy was doing some classes

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_09]: With Grant Cardone

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_09]: For real estate

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_09]: And then like somebody pointed out

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_09]: That he's also a Scientologist

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_09]: Right

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_09]: But he's not at front about that

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I bought the real estate book

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Well then I recognized

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Every other purchase was

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_04]: He was selling his sales pitches

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_04]: He wasn't actually providing

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_04]: It was purchase my sales pitch

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_04]: My sales pitch

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And where I kind of got

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_04]: The same intel on YouTube

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And then there's aggressive

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Follow-up phone calls from people

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_09]: I heard that guy calling you

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_09]: Asking to like sign up for something

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_09]: And you know once I've been in sale

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm like ew bar for Ramo

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Like it was like

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_05]: All of his programs are leading you

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Into the next program

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_05]: And right now his entire funnel

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Is leading into all of his real estate developments

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Everything's leading into

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Participating in his real estate deals

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Max out your credit card

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And invest in real estate

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_05]: It's really scary

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I've shared the stage with him three times

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_05]: At major conferences

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Where we both spoke

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Into the conferences

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_05]: It's horrifyingly scary

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_04]: He also shames you for not doing it

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_04]: He's like where are you going to put your money

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Here, here, here

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_04]: He's like boom boom

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And he tells you why they're all bad

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_05]: He doesn't deliver a lot of content on the stage

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_05]: He does

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Great business guy but dangerous

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah and look

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_04]: The book that I bought

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is like 199

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Or whatever it was

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_04]: With like you know it wasn't much

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Great beginners kind of like

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Content on real estate

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And the ecosystem and stuff like that

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_04]: But then I felt like anything past that

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Was the same thing that I just did

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So it had the same feel

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_05]: He's also teaching that

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_05]: You don't really have the skills

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_05]: To do real estate

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_05]: But if you put your money

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Into his real estate deals

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Then you'll do well

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_09]: That's why we added a way for anyone who wants to support the show to do exactly that.

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_09]: You can go to a littlebitculti.com

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_09]: Slash support

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Or the link in our Instagram bio

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_09]: Or smash that link in our show notes

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_09]: To make a one time contribution

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_09]: Or a recurring one

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_09]: We will pay your support forward

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_09]: With a galactic level of love and light

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_09]: And healing resources of course

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_09]: Again it's a little bitculti.com

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Slash support

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_09]: Or check out the link in our Instagram bios

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_09]: Next up we really gotta figure out

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_09]: What to call you

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Our listenership

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_09]: ALBC nation

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_09]: Flying monkeys

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_09]: We're gonna have to workshop that

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks guys

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[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Sarah you know that chicken salad I love?

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_04]: My favorite place here in Atlanta

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_07]: I sure do babe

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_04]: You know I was thinking about it

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Just the other day

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_07]: You were thinking about the chicken salad?

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I think about it more than I'd like to admit

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I was thinking how great it would be

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_04]: To get that level of culinary satisfaction at home

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_04]: No disrespect to you

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean I'm gonna try to not be offended

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_08]: But I get where you're coming from

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay just maybe I manifested it

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_04]: But it turns out

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_08]: He's manifesting now

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[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_04]: What about the price?

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Here's the best part

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It's cheaper than any other delivery options out there

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[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Recyclable and reusable

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I know you love that

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_09]: I do

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[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_09]: That's the thing

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_09]: There's a trick

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_09]: There's always a bait and switch

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, you're just buying my book

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_09]: And at the end of the book

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_09]: You're gonna want to do more

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_09]: It's the same thing that I've seen with Landmark

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_09]: And again I'll do a deeper dive

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_09]: But it's like you're just taking this

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_09]: Three-day weekend workshop

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_09]: And in the end if you really want to grow

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_09]: You're gonna do the next one

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_09]: And the next one

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_09]: And the next one

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I would love to do that in our work

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I would love to do that personal development

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm terrified that I would get sucked into the next

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And the next and the next

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_09]: You know what somebody said to us when we left

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_09]: It's like it's one thing to take a workshop like that

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_09]: And use the tools in your life

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_09]: When the tools become your life

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_09]: Is the problem

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_09]: And that's what I see

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_09]: With all of these things

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_09]: Especially the large group awareness trainings

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_09]: Or the seminars

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_09]: And we've talked a lot about this in our last two seasons

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Is you know what's the hook

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_09]: And what does it actually end up being

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_09]: And if it is a lifelong program

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Something you could never graduate from Nexium

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_09]: There was always another sash

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that why all these groups are pointing to the one or two people

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Who are ever successful in their real life

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_05]: And Christian science must be good

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Because Tom Cruise is a member

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Or Hank Adams is a member

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_09]: I think so

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_09]: They did that with me too

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_09]: Like look at Sarah

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_09]: She used to be an out of

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_09]: You know living in a basement suite

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_09]: Spiring actress and now she's

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_09]: Making six figures and you know blah blah blah

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Sarah can do it anyone can do it

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_05]: We always did it with our franchisees

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_05]: You know I was one of the franchisees that they pointed to

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_05]: At college pro painters

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Having been so successful

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_05]: My sister was super successful

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_05]: And at 1-800-GADCHUNK

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_05]: We pointed to strangely enough

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Our number one franchisee

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Was a former college pro painter

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Person that I brought into 1-800-GADCHUNK

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Who became the biggest franchisee

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_05]: But I was always pointing to them

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_05]: As role models and leaders

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Not that you couldn't get there

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Because now we've probably got 50 franchisees

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_05]: That are doing what Paul used to do

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_05]: When I was pointing to them

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Well you aren't lying

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_09]: You can't get there

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_05]: But there was a bit of the fake until you make it

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't know

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I was pretty sure that we could get

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_05]: But we didn't have anybody else there except him

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_05]: So I was pretty sure I could get people there

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_05]: But I didn't know for sure

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_05]: But I felt like if they followed all these systems

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_05]: And they did, some most did I guess

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_05]: But you don't always know

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Well I think in our situation

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_04]: They knew for sure that you probably

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Weren't going to be able to do it

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Based on diagnostics wouldn't you say Sarah?

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah because even Keith even said

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_09]: In MLMs and multi-level marketing

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_09]: And pyramid schemes or whatever

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_09]: The average person can bring in 2.6 people

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_09]: To anything, the average

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_09]: That's the number in sales

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_09]: And next seem to be a sales person

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Which is where you could actually make money

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_09]: You had to bring in 6 people within 6 months

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_09]: So there's a time frame

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_09]: And if you went past that

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_09]: Like if you only got 5 in 6 months

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_09]: At 6 months you started again

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_09]: So it's like it was very, very difficult

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_09]: There was a handful of us that were salespeople

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_09]: A particular kind of person

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_09]: And I happened to be one of those people unfortunately

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Not a skill that I'm proud of in this context

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_09]: But it is a skill

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_09]: And maybe one day you will convince me to come

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_05]: So I wanted to hire you

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_09]: I could come work for your team

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_09]: No

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_05]: I think your podcast is doing too well now

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I think you're out running now

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_09]: Well we'll see, I like to multitask

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_05]: You're doing great

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_09]: You never know

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh yeah but like and this is in my book too

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_09]: Cameron where Keith admitted to me

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_09]: That it was all about creating the illusion of hope

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Right, my last conversation with him

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't imagine you saying that Cameron

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, no, no

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_05]: No and I did actually listen to your audio book

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_05]: It was fantastic, it was really strong

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_05]: The vow scared me to wonder

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_05]: If we'd ever crossed the line

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_05]: And I don't think we ever did

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I think the danger is that it could cross

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Companies could become either out of greed

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Or out of fear, you know

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Where the CEO is desperate

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Because they have everything on the line

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Or that you could cross the line

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_05]: You could go too far with culture

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_04]: We've had a few guests who are in positions of power

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And I've listened to a couple people that I know

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Because of what's going on politically

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_04]: They've stood up for certain things

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_04]: And as a result of standing up for certain things

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_04]: They've accumulated an audience that kind of follows them

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And reads their articles now

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_04]: And I've listened to them and consistently

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Through a lot of them

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_04]: They are all sensitive to the new found power

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_04]: That they have

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And what do you do when you realize

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_04]: What's your responsibility when you realize

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_04]: You have an influence over someone

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_04]: That you don't necessarily want

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Or quite understand

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And you're going to have a learning curve

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's say for instance you're in a position

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And someone really likes your seminar

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And they are willing to compromise

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe themselves

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Their time or whatever to get your attention

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And you see that

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_04]: What's your responsibility

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Does that make sense?

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And was it Natty Boltz-Weber was talking about

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Even how she looked at someone

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Can be misinterpreted

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_05]: It happened and happens for sure

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I think the fact that you're having the conversations

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And these people are having these conversations

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Is an indication of you're not the kind of person

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_04]: That wants to abuse

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Or is interested in abusing that position

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_05]: No, but not at all

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_05]: But I am definitely the kind of person

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_05]: That still believes that a great company culture

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_05]: From the outside

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_05]: People might say it's a cult

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And from the inside

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I think we have to be careful

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a good segue to your cult thing, Sarah

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_04]: What's the bad thing?

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_09]: We were taught in our first five days

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_09]: That people are going to say that we're in a cult

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_09]: And we were armed with the response

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Which is that when someone's accusing

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Something of somebody

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_09]: You say what it is

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Like if they're killing people

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Their murderers

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_09]: If they're stealing then their thieves

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_09]: But saying it's a cult

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_09]: Is just saying there's sort of this wash

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_09]: Of it's bad without actually saying

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_09]: What the bad thing is

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_09]: And so we were like what's bad

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_09]: But what we're doing

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_09]: We're wearing sashes

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_09]: We're happy

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_09]: We take long walks in the neighborhood

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_09]: And the neighbors don't like that

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_09]: Like okay, it's a culture

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_09]: It's a culture

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_05]: We play volleyball at night

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_05]: We don't sit and watch reality TV

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, like I'm in a cult

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_09]: Great, it's a cult of happy, successful people

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_09]: And I fucking love my cult

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_09]: That was my response

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Nippy, I feel like

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_09]: Normally we do word salad in the outro

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_09]: But I feel like you should share your word salad

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_09]: With Cameron because it's a good segue

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_04]: A prickly little word

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Which begs the question what is a cult?

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Does that imply something is bad?

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Is it always bad?

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_04]: If you murder someone

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_04]: You call them a murderer, do you not?

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_04]: When you call something a cult

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_04]: You call them that

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Because you cannot specify the bad thing

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_04]: If a group of people

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Get together with a common vision

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And we call them a cult

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_04]: In essence we hurt culture

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And ultimately we hurt society

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Man's creation

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a strong word salad then, right?

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a thousand islands

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_05]: It is

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_09]: Such the kind of shit that Keith would say

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_09]: And like I think I even said this

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_09]: In our first episode with Steven Hasson

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_09]: I said that about an acting group

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_09]: That I was a part of

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_09]: And we are going to do a full episode

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_09]: On this group at some point

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_09]: But I even said it

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_09]: Like before I did Nexium

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_09]: I was like oh yeah

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't take that program anymore

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_09]: It's kind of a cult

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_09]: And then afterwards it's like

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Wow I shouldn't do that

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Like that's not a good

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_09]: I should

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_09]: And then I started to say things

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_09]: Like it's very insular

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_09]: It pushes the boundaries

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_09]: Like once you're in it

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_09]: You feel very righteous

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_09]: There's kind of like this us

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_09]: Versus them

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_09]: Anyone who's not

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Like little did I know

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_09]: I was nailing the checklist

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Of what actually constitutes a cult

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_09]: But I wasn't using the word cult anymore

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_09]: Because I didn't think it was good

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_09]: Like Keith basically

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_09]: Programmed us

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Gas let you

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_09]: Gas let us to not use the word

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Because of the connotations

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_09]: Which is smart if we know the connotations

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Well it armed us with a good defense

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_09]: And it was a good defense

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_09]: If it was true that we were a humanitarian group

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_09]: Trying to do all the idealistic things

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_09]: We thought we were trying to do

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_09]: And Keith was who he said he was

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_09]: Then that would be true

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_09]: But the fact is that it wasn't true

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_09]: And it was a defense strategy

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_09]: It's a deflection

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_05]: May have been the intention

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_05]: In the first couple of years

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_05]: But he sure went off the rails afterwards

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_09]: No no he planned this from the beginning

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_09]: We have lots of data to prove that now

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_04]: You know one of the things

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Sarah and I were talking about

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Are these things conscious or unconscious

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think with Keith and Keith's case

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_04]: It was still the conscious thing

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_09]: It was very well planned out

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_09]: There are leaders of other groups

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_09]: That we've explored

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_09]: Who I really do think had good intentions

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_09]: At the beginning

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_09]: And then the power got to their head

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_09]: Or like women being thrown at them

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_09]: You know it's gonna have an effect

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_09]: If you're not a strong grounded person

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_09]: That's very different than a sociopath

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Who's planning out how they're going to

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_09]: Screw people out of their money

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_09]: And have a fresh supply of

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_09]: You know what

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that would be very true

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Inside of a company as well

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I think that the vast majority

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Of leaders that use company culture

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_05]: To build a great company

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_05]: That's what they want to do

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_05]: But it is that sliver

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_05]: That they're cognizant

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_05]: That they're using it and abusing it

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_05]: For sure

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_09]: That's a great note to end on

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I look forward to meeting up

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Anytime

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_09]: I'll let you give me the pitch

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_09]: To come be a recruiter for you

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Now that I'm a little less out of trauma

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Allegedly, allegedly

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Say it with me

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_09]: Anything said here

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_09]: I'll miss podcast about alleged cults

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Alleged MLM schemes

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Alleged douchebaggery

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_09]: Mindfuckery

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_09]: Criminality

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_09]: Spiritual fraud

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Or the like

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Is offered purely as commentary

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Because the views and opinions

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_09]: Expressed on a little bit culty

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Do not necessarily reflect

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_09]: On official policy

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_09]: Or position of the podcast

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_09]: And any content provided by our guests

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Bloggers, sponsors or authors

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_09]: Are their opinion

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_09]: And are not intended to malign

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Any religion, group, club, organization

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_09]: Business individual, anyone

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_09]: Or anything

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_09]: So just let these words drift

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Into your mind

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_09]: Without needing to focus on any of them

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_09]: You are great

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_09]: You are capable

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_09]: You deserve to be happy

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Nobody's mad at you

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_09]: Unless you're actually

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_09]: A narcissistic culty criminal

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_09]: If that's you

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_09]: Cut that shit out

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_09]: Don't be a fuckwad

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_09]: But if that's not you

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Again, you are great

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_09]: You are capable

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_09]: You deserve to be happy

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_09]: A little bit culty loves you

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_09]: I think we got a lot of good nuggets there

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_04]: He seems like a guy I could talk to for a while

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, we will. We're gonna double date

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_09]: One story I forgot about is

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's kind of crazy

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_09]: So the week that I gave birth to Troy

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_09]: So this would have been June of 2014

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_09]: I had the opportunity to go into Lululemon

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_09]: And pitch their team that did

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_09]: The personal development

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Because I'd heard that they wanted something

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_09]: That was more emotionally depthy than landmark

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_09]: And I went in and sat down

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_09]: With the head of the person that makes that decision

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_09]: With Nancy Salisman

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_09]: And we pitched them nexium

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_09]: And they were on board

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_09]: And they wanted to take it to the next step

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_09]: But what they asked for

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_09]: Was for, I think it was either a one day

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_09]: Or like a three day test

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Weekend, right?

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_09]: It was a weekend

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_09]: And they wanted it to be in Vancouver

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_09]: I believe and Keith was basically

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_09]: No, they have to come to Albany

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_09]: It has to be a 16 day

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_09]: And they were like, no

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_09]: And now I totally think that it was

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Because he just didn't want it to be at that level

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_09]: We were never ready to be

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_09]: At the Lululemon landmark level

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_09]: And we didn't even have the staff for that

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_09]: Like we didn't have enough head facilitators

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_09]: Or proctors to go to do that

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_09]: But he made it sound like

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_09]: They weren't willing to really invest

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_04]: It was always like that

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Anything that was going to reach

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_04]: What I think is next level peer reviewed stuff

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Because Tuck, business school

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_04]: I think someone at Harvard Business School

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Was interested and it was always the same problem

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_09]: Keith always kiboshed those big opportunities

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Keith would create conditions that were unreasonable

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_04]: To them so they would say no

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_09]: And I just remember on a personal note

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_09]: Feeling like so committed to the mission

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_09]: Because I was in recovery

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_09]: If you recall that was the first time

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_09]: I left my bed after giving birth

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_09]: And I was not in good shape

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_09]: I had a 32 hour labor

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_09]: And could barely walk

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_09]: And I managed to bring Troy into the lobby

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_09]: I think you held Troy in the lobby

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he was chilling

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Like I said, it probably still is

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_09]: A stunning building

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_09]: The architecture and I remember there being

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_09]: A lot of greenery and atriums

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_09]: And open space and light

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_09]: Imagine if our ESP center

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_09]: Looked as beautiful as this

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_09]: We would just thrive but alas

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank God it did

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_09]: Anyway, great chat, Nip

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_09]: Pleasure codificating with you

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_09]: Pleasure doing business

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_09]: We are committed to our success

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_09]: Bye everybody, thanks for joining us

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_09]: See you next time on A Little Bit Calty

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's keep the conversation going

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be back soon with more episodes

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Of A Little Bit Calty

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: With more experts and survivors

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And sometimes experts who are survivors

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_04]: As well as some familiar faces from the VAL

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_04]: From HBO

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_04]: If you've got suggestions or questions

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_04]: On upcoming topics, find us on

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Instagram at A Little Bit Calty

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_09]: And for more background on what brought me here

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_09]: My memoir, Scarred, The True Story

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Of How I Escaped Nexium

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_09]: The Cult That Bound My Life

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Is available on Amazon, Audible

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_09]: And where most books are sold

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_04]: If you'd like to help us spread the word

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_04]: About a little bit culty podcasts

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Please give us a 5 star review

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And tell your friends to subscribe

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Seriously, take out their phone and tell them to press subscribe

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_09]: Takes a second

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_09]: We're also available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_09]: And every major listening app

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_09]: And if you're listening on a smartphone

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Tap or swipe over the cover art of this podcast

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_09]: To find show notes and helpful resources

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_04]: You might also find some offers from our sponsors there

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And when you support our sponsors

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_04]: You help us keep this podcast going

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Just don't be a little bit culty about it

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_09]: A Little Bit Calty is executive produced by me

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_09]: Your co-host Sarah Edmanson and Anthony Nippy Ames

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_04]: That's me

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_09]: Associate producer is Jess Tardy

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_09]: Produced, edited, mixed and mastered by

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Citizens of Sound

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Our amazing theme song, Cultivated

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_09]: Is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm Sarah Edmanson and thanks for listening to

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_09]: A Little Bit Calty