Culty Fan Favorites | Ft. Amanda Montell, Evan Rachel Wood, and Eckhart Tolle

[00:00:00] The views and opinions expressed by A Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts. And don't reflect the official policy or position of the podcast, right Sarah? Correct. Any of the quote fire content, I prefer lava content provided by our guest blogger,

[00:00:13] sponsors, or authors of the opinion and are not intended to malign a religion, a group, a club, an organization, business individual, anyone or anything unless Sarah. You're a douchebag. Yeah, I mean pretty much. Also, we're not doctors, psychologists or wizards.

[00:00:29] We're just two non-experts trying to make you a friendly and formative podcast based on our experience that we've turned into wisdom. Okay. Good talk. Okay. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here. And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC.

[00:00:57] A podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side. We've been there and back again. A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult. And then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge.

[00:01:09] And the whole thing was captured in the HBO docu-series The Vow. Now in its second season. I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Skard, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:21] Look at us, a couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control. Oh, wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe. We got to schedule that that's separate.

[00:01:34] So it's two days? We got to hang out? We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium. It's still on that journey. And we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:01:46] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level market. This stuff really is everywhere.

[00:01:59] The Cultiverse just keeps on expanding, and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com. Hey, everybody. I hope your summer was deep like ours was.

[00:02:33] We are back in the ATL and we're working on some new episodes of A Little Bit Cultie coming in hot any day now. But first for our late summer time, we wanted to revisit our old episodes.

[00:02:44] Going back to the archives, get some mashups for some greatest hits for you. But before we do that, Sarah, of course, has some housekeeping. Don't you, Sarah? I'm curious as to why you say that in that voice. That's what I want to know.

[00:02:56] But I do have some housekeeping, actually. Thanks, Nippy. Thanks for passing me over the mic. We will be announcing our live event very shortly, just hashing out the details over here in the A Little Bit Cultie studio. Secondly, if you would like to see us in person,

[00:03:08] I will be doing a Q&A with Dr. Shafali. The information for that event in October is on our website, littlebitculti.com, slash sponsors, as well as an online event, which is free. Please check those things out. That's all the housekeeping I have.

[00:03:24] And just a reminder, these mashups are so awesome. I personally have really enjoyed putting these together for you all. And I promise we will be back with some all-new cult-busting content. And we are still dropping fresh new episodes every week over on Patreon in the meantime.

[00:03:39] And until we meet in the feed again, here is our very first summer remix featuring some of our personal favorite interviews of all time. If you're a cult member, you hate them. But if you're a fan of Little Bit Cultie,

[00:03:53] you can't help but love the three cult-busting guests we are featuring on today's episode. First up is Amanda Montel, a writer. The No-Tell Montel. A writer, language scholar, and the author of two critically acclaimed books, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and Words Slut, favorite book title ever.

[00:04:09] A feminist guide to taking back the English language from Harper Wave. Her books have run praise from The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, and others. And Amanda is currently developing Words Slut for television with FX Studios.

[00:04:21] Amanda's writing has been featured in Marie Claire, Cosmopolitan, Teen Vogue, Refinery29, and Who, What, Where, where she formally served as the features and beauty editor. She is also the creator and co-host of the comedy cult podcast Sounds Like a Cult.

[00:04:37] Next is actor, activist, and epic badass Evan Rachel Wood, whose impressive AF resume also includes most likely to be hideously trod by Marilyn Manson's dance of the world. If you've seen the HBO Max miniseries, Phoenix Rising, please do if you haven't,

[00:04:53] which chronicles her fight to break away from the rocker formally known as Brian Warner, you've already seen the cult-y shit around that whole situation. We caught up with Evan to talk about her journey to hell and back,

[00:05:04] how she's doing now, and why she won't ever stop blowing the whistle on complete mindfuckery. As a note to our listeners and our lawyers, Mr. Manson has repeatedly denied multiple sexual assault allegations from multiple women and is currently suing Evan for defamation over the accusations.

[00:05:20] Class act as always, Marilyn. He's claiming it's part of an elaborate organized act. Please note the conversations like the one you're about to hear can be traumatizing for abused survivors. Listen to this episode of caution, and if you or anyone you know needs support,

[00:05:32] see our site for free resources. Also please note that we love Evan Rachel Wood and believe her without any reservation. Finally, and perhaps most controversially is Eckhart Toll, who is widely recognized as one of the most inspiring spiritual leaders in the world.

[00:05:45] His international bestsellers have been translated into 52 languages, and we can't verify this, but he might be one of the most quoted and or misquoted contemporary spiritual gurus ever. Also for the record, our listeners have had a love hate reaction to this guest.

[00:06:00] We've never gotten more, oh my goodness, this was the best episode ever. And then at the same time, I- You guys are still on a cult. And I can't listen to this, and this was very, I get it, naturally triggering for people,

[00:06:12] especially if they were, if they got out of a spiritual cult because most spiritual cults speak about the same concepts. So remember, it's not necessarily the content, it's the leader and the abuses of power.

[00:06:24] We personally had a great experience, doesn't mean that that's the same experience for all. So if you were one of those people that were triggered when we dropped this episode, reminder, you can always skip it or fast forward. Well put, Cajos.

[00:06:36] Can't please everybody, let us know what you think. And without further ado, our favorite guests. The mashup number one. There's definitely a difference between like technical jargon and cultish language, but that's what I'm hearing in Nexium.

[00:07:01] It combined the language of so many different areas to create this next level wisdom that was actually kind of empty at the end of the day. So just to take what you just said and add to it because it was all those things.

[00:07:15] It was therapy and it said it wasn't New Age, but it was. Like they specifically said, you know, Wu Wu stuff can't be measured. This is science-based, but there was an emphasis in sort of like a,

[00:07:25] like there's a Buddhist element to it, like happiness is an inside job and nothing from the outside world will ever fill that void, which is, you know, there's some truth in that. So it's mystical and spiritual and science-based and it was also,

[00:07:40] even though they said they weren't, it was also an MLM. Oh yeah. Oh, this is my favorite part about it. Right? Favorite. Yeah. Right. Well, that's the thing is they specifically said it wasn't an MLM because, quote, MLMs are unethical inherently and this is ethical.

[00:07:56] I see this so much like someone will say things like, I wouldn't be a therapist if I were unethical. Like it's like, that doesn't make sense. MLMs will say this can't be a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal as if just because something is illegal means

[00:08:13] you aren't doing it. Like even if you didn't make no sense, it's like before marijuana was legal, I was still smoking it. Something does, can still exist and you can still be doing it. Even if it's illegal, you can even be doing it without the knowledge

[00:08:31] that that thing is illegal. Just naming something as ethical doesn't make it ethical. It's gaslighting too. Oh, well, sure. I mean, it's this campaign to make you mistrust your reality. People use the word gaslighting so willy-nilly on the internet.

[00:08:44] Like it has completely lost its meaning in some ways, but I think people just use it to mean like lying or mistreating other people in literally any type of way, but gaslighting for the record is this campaign to manipulate someone into

[00:09:00] mistrusting and questioning their own valid experiences, feelings, beliefs, and language completely is how that happens. Amanda, I think you'll get a kick out of this. Once the authorities were involved and Keith was on trial,

[00:09:14] there are still, and there still are to this day a small handful of loyalists that were holding on and trying to show the truth about Keith and how misunderstood he was and how in fact it was the prosecution process that was unethical.

[00:09:26] And when he was accused of these bad things, we heard that there was one particular person who was leading the charge and trying to rally people to come back into the fold and was saying to them, well, just because it's illegal, it doesn't mean it's bad.

[00:09:41] So just because Keith was being charged with illegal things and citing things like marijuana, like there was a time when it was illegal and it wasn't bad. So just because Keith had underage sex, does that mean it's bad? And that's ultimate gaslighting of the former members

[00:09:57] to say like, well, okay, yes, it's true. He's been brought to court for these things, but does it make it bad? The ultimate gaslighting using language have people question. Because he would play these like logic games that really weren't like valid puzzles.

[00:10:13] They just like sounded really good, but didn't mean anything. Like I was recently looking at Keith Ranieri quotes for like an exercise that I do on my podcast. And there was this one quote that I read. Oh God, what was it? It was like something along the lines.

[00:10:29] It was trying to do a sort of JFK, chiasmus thing. Like ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. It was like trying to do something like that,

[00:10:37] but it was like, you know, you can't have the fortitude to know what you're doing unless you can do it, you know, it was like something like that. And it made no sense. It sounded really good though. I have a whole imitation of him that I did.

[00:10:50] And as his birthday. I would love to. And it's just verbal diarrhea. Yes, he was so good at that. I wish just pissing on him. He was so good at that sort of like mind fuck of like saying something that sounds really sweet, but it like contort.

[00:11:03] It's like trying to play a logic game. Pick a subject matter. I'll do one. Okay, okay, okay. Pick something. Let's do food. It's interesting. You look at food and while it may nurture you in the physical level,

[00:11:18] one might also say that it can nurture you in the spiritual level. And those two things in conjunction can lead to an all knowing, encompassing thing about what it is that we call food. And you're like, and you're like, what the fuck? Like, you're like, what?

[00:11:35] Like just take a fucking bite. That reminds me so much of that like kid in school who would raise their hand after the teacher asked a question and they didn't know what they were about to say,

[00:11:47] but they just wanted to sort of like experiment with hearing their own voice. And like, we never know. This is the thing. This is the amazing thing about the human mind. We never know what we're going to say when we open our mouths.

[00:11:59] Like in a way, we don't have free will. Like I opened my mouth and I don't know what the fuck is going to come out. And it's amazing that we ever say anything that makes any sense, but it takes someone with a certain amount of hubris and megalomania

[00:12:13] to open their mouths on a stage on any topic and like wax authoritative on it in the way that he did. That's why I think anyone who runs for president has a fucking problem. A thousand percent. I agree with you. I completely agree.

[00:12:29] I think why the fuck would you want that job? And people, you know, this is so funny talking about social media and stuff. And what makes you think you're going to do something better than the... I'm so with you.

[00:12:40] People come before you and like, I think that's the blinking light. You're so right. We were talking about social media before and it's like, you know, we all again are being incentivized to create our own mini cults on Instagram, etc.

[00:12:53] And anytime this is only having a couple of times when someone has sort of like in earnest accused me of like building my own little cult on Instagram or whatever, it's funny because like the second you start to defend why you're not a cult leader,

[00:13:06] you immediately sound like one. Also, it's just like, honey, I am too lazy. I like to sleep too much and I don't... Yeah, like I just don't have what it takes to run for president or start a call or any of that.

[00:13:22] It's just like, I just want to be left alone. That whole exchange you just had, I actually had a question from your book. We call that word salad. I would wonder if that's a term that you use because I didn't hear it in your book

[00:13:33] or I didn't read it. Is that something that you're using your linguistic? Word salad, I mean in linguistics, like during my studies of linguistics, I would hear word salad in the content. I think there's a technical term for it that I'm, oh, that's escaping me.

[00:13:47] There is a technical linguistic term for word salad, but it applies to when someone has like a brain injury that affects the part of their brain responsible for... Oh, asphasia? It's something like that. And then like they... Like a stroke? Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:01] Or like a car crash or something and yeah, aphasia or apraxia. I forget. Oh my gosh, my linguistics professors would be so disappointed. But I know what you're saying. You'll sort of take like a grab bag of terms that don't really mean anything when you put

[00:14:19] them all together in that way but create this impression of authority. I mean it's kind of like what Trump would do. Like he just had this roster of loaded buzzwords that he would rely on and mix and match and it wasn't even about what he was saying.

[00:14:34] It was about the delivery and about what the audience wanted to hear. Just going back also to the MLM thing, which we didn't really finish. That was what pulled for me your whole book together different concepts that I hadn't recognized their historical background in terms of MLMs, Christianity,

[00:14:52] the prosperity gospel, toxic productivity, dogma. I know this is a lot to throw at you but because that was really a big pull for me with next time, obviously meaning community that was the foundation but then it also became about being the best version of myself.

[00:15:09] You were never really allowed to stop. I mean you could but then you'd be shamed or punished. There was no vacation. Here's a thought terminating cliche. Why would you vacate from your life? Oh these are good. I just remembered that once.

[00:15:22] I was always doing two or three things at once. That's abusing language too. Yeah. 100%. Can you kind of give our audience understanding what the toxic productivity dogma is, the prosperity gospel, how those two concepts relate? Yeah of course.

[00:15:37] What we know as the American dream has evolved a little bit over the centuries but the MLM industry is basically like this blown out almost spoofed version of the American dream that ultimately derives from the same Protestant ethic and the same workplace history

[00:16:02] as our regular dignified labor market. This is the golden age of cult recovery. The more we speak up and share our stories, the more we realize we are not alone. Your voice and your story can empower others. This is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator

[00:16:22] of the hashtag I Got Out movement. Learn more at IGotOut.org. The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family but everything wasn't as it seemed. I just had a 12 year old boy still up here asking for help. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs.

[00:16:48] Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives. Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are your self-care non-negotiables?

[00:17:08] Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga. Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. I mean that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it? Well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:17:20] and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature. Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it. Nature is a non-negotiable. Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded.

[00:17:33] Therapy Day is a bit like my nature walks. I try to not miss it and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it.

[00:17:41] It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need. Like I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:17:49] just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean? Thanks Therapy! Thanks for helping me see that. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule.

[00:18:01] Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge. Look, even when we know what makes us happy, it's hard to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself,

[00:18:13] non-negotiables like Therapy are more important than ever. Never skip Therapy Day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culty. I understand that some of it is still not computing with my brain.

[00:18:31] It also seems intentional because there are so many studies about trauma now, so much brain science, so much evidence. We know sort of like a good time frame for how long it kind of takes to process and be able to come forward or to feel safe.

[00:18:48] I mean sometimes it takes people an entire lifetime. Sorry, this is my dog. But for the most part it's around seven to 10 years and we know that. So to have laws that are one to three years, it just seems a little intentional. It just seems a little like,

[00:19:04] oh we're just going to put a gain from this. Who stands again? And again, we don't think like this, but psychopaths do in that they're going to look up what the statute of limitations is and they're going to know, all right, I got a year.

[00:19:18] Oh man, I only got to intimidate this person for a year. Easy, easy for a psychopath to like scare somebody until the statute of limitations runs out, especially if you have collateral and you have power and somebody's scared of you. It's going to take a very long time.

[00:19:32] I had never considered really that collateral was a thing outside of Nexium because it just wasn't like, you know, it just was this crazy thing that he made up. Revenge porn. Yeah. And listen, what they had on me is nothing compared

[00:19:45] to what they have on some of the women, some of whom are still in because they haven't reconciled that they have been abused because they're still stuck in that shame. And I hope that they watch Phoenix Rising because I think that a lot of them could potentially,

[00:19:58] we call it waking up, you know, or snapping out of the dream or whatever you want to call it. It's so hard because when you're in denial, it doesn't feel like you're actively in denial. It's not like your white-knuckling at going, no, I'm not going to admit it.

[00:20:11] You know, you're genuinely like, you're like, no this is good for me. I chose this. I chose it. You're gone. I chose this. You're disassociated. I don't even think I could say the word rape for years. Like it just wouldn't even come out of my mouth.

[00:20:23] It's just, yeah, the reality is just too horrible, you know. I meant to ask this earlier, but when you were in, was there anything that people could have said knowing what you know now that would have gotten you out sooner?

[00:20:33] Or was it just like the path you had to be on? Man, honestly, like when I first saw the graphic for the cycle of violence, when I started to read about domestic violence and human trafficking, and when I realized that my situation was not only

[00:20:52] not just me and not unique, but there was like a textbook for it. There was like a how-to step by step. That would have done something. I think people approached me in a shaming way and in a what's wrong with you? How could you be with him?

[00:21:09] Why aren't you leaving? You're on drugs. It was very much sort of... That doesn't work? It doesn't work. No. Yeah, and I think a lot of people just thought I was on drugs and crazy, but there's usually an underlying cause for that.

[00:21:25] People don't just become drug addicts for fun. There's usually like some serious pain they're trying to escape from. And if people had come to me in more of a, hey, first of all, read this. Second of all, like especially...

[00:21:43] I don't know if you've ever watched the show Intervention, but you see the moment people decide to go and it's never when they're able to see the error of their ways. It's when the people around them are able to admit their dysfunction. I swear to you.

[00:21:57] And I think for me, if my family had come to me and said and not made it about me and said, hey, we're really sorry. I think that would have been a total game changer. It had been like, we're all gonna sort of take responsibility

[00:22:11] for our piece of puzzle here and the dysfunction that we modeled or the things that we taught you or we did not empower you. We did not give you a voice. We expected you to be an adult too soon. We did all of these things

[00:22:24] and we didn't do them on purpose. Like I love my family. I love my parents. I know the things that they did were not on purpose. But we all do dysfunctional things and it's how we repair those things, especially with our children, that really matters.

[00:22:39] And if you're not able to acknowledge those things, you keep somebody sick in a way. But if you're able to sort of free them from that pain and to acknowledge either your hand in it or what they're going through, then that does so much. For sure.

[00:22:54] It does so much. That's such good advice. I hope all the parents listening put that in their pot. I'm listening as a parent. It's not about blame. It's not like you were a terrible parent. It's not that. And that's like... You're human. They're human.

[00:23:09] Yeah, and I know my parents, when the documentary came out, it was hard for them. And I think it's still hard for them some days to feel like, I don't want to be portrayed in this sort of negative way

[00:23:20] and for the focus to be on all the things that I did wrong. And I just have to tell them, look, I could make another documentary that was about all the things you did right. For sure. Yeah, honestly. Like beautiful things. Clearly you did something right.

[00:23:31] I'm alive and I burnt it all to the ground. I'm back into that. I'm still a good person. Like you did good. There's a lot that you built because of them. So much that you built. I think if anyone's watching that, they're going to understand that these people

[00:23:44] who have been through some sort of trauma or they can recognize that your parents are human. They're good parents. Like we're all a product of our experiences and the time in which we were born and we're all doing our best.

[00:23:54] And I know that they both tried really hard. And in retrospect, can look back at some things and be like, oh my God. Yeah, of course that would wire you for this. Of course you didn't have a core identity

[00:24:05] and it was easy for you to fall into this stuff. Like you were controlled by adults, like your whole, like you were like a little puppet. So made sense. I actually think that was one of the most emotional, well, one of them, moments with your dad recognizing

[00:24:19] that he wasn't there for you when you needed him and that you taught him how to be there for someone and that helped him evolve his empathy. And I think it's true that there's a lot of people, myself included.

[00:24:32] I wouldn't have known how to be with somebody in trauma until I went through my own trauma. And now I know, you just show up. I even messaged you that when you first came out. It was like if I was there, I'd come by with some food

[00:24:41] and we just met on Instagram. But I would hold space and I'd bring you some matcha and whatever you needed. Totally. And you don't know that until you go through it. Like I've seen other people go through trauma before

[00:24:52] and like, oh, I guess I better just give them some space and like stay out of their way. But no, I mean, everyone needs different things, but at least to offer that. Yeah, because it's a very lonely experience. And at the end of the day,

[00:25:02] like people can hold your hand and support you, but you're doing it. You're alone at the end of the day. Like it's your brain, it's your soul, it's your trauma and you have to sort through it and you have to do the work every day.

[00:25:18] But yeah, people ask me, how'd you get through it? It's like, well, you know, you're never like, I'm through it. I'm done. You know, it's like it's work. It's work every day to fend off the panic and anxiety or the PTSD or, you know, repeating patterns.

[00:25:32] And yeah, holding space for people is everything. Just like not trying to fix it. If you ask for this, it's a little different, but like sometimes I'll just need to talk about what I'm going through. I'll just need to talk about it with somebody

[00:25:45] and you know, sometimes the response is like, yeah, but you know, try to focus on some of the good stuff and like, you know, let's not dwell on this and let's, you know, let's move on from, you know, and you're like, I understand that's very well intentioned,

[00:25:56] but like I can't just move on. No. If I could just like flip a switch and just not think about this and be happy, like I would do it, but I just need to talk about it in process and if I need cheering up or distraction,

[00:26:10] I'll tell people I'll say, like please just come over and distract me. Let's just like have fun and I want to forget stuff, but sometimes you just need to sit in it and it's uncomfortable. It's very, very uncomfortable for people to sit in that with somebody

[00:26:22] because it's sad. It is. You know, it's not, it's not fun. I was actually really impressed with how clearly therapy, but also self-education you went through to even like the documentary really laid out the steps. You really laid out the love bombing

[00:26:39] and the grooming and all the tactics. Was there a particular resource in your therapy and your healing that led you to that or was it an amalgamation of different things? It was an amalgamation. There was a few people that really opened the door for me

[00:26:52] and Tandy Way Newton saw, she just, I wasn't, I didn't tell anybody what had happened, but just the same way you can spot a perpetrator easier, you can also spot a victim or somebody like going through it. And I think she just could see something. She felt it.

[00:27:11] And she introduced me to Eve Ensler who wrote The Apology and the Vagina Monologues and Desvidé and is just brilliant. She was the first person that I, well, one of the first people that I barely knew that I like told my story to

[00:27:26] and she was one of the first people that said, I believe you. And then I started sort of following her work and her journey. The Apology is an incredible book to read if you've been through a kind of trauma and had a reconcile with never getting an apology,

[00:27:43] never getting Josh to read that. It's like, oh, it's really good, really, really good, especially like, your perpetrator was like huge narcissist and like nobody else could see it. But yeah, and then I followed a lot of amazing advocates online and then I would reach out to them

[00:28:00] and then I would talk to them and learn from them. And I would go to like the California partnership to end domestic violence and California is amazing. I joined that. I would go to the talks and I would hear from survivors from all walks of life,

[00:28:18] different backgrounds, different communities, how the problem affects different people in different ways, sort of learning from the mistakes of the past, talking to perpetrators, talking to reformed abusers. It's like I kind of just like had to look at the scope of the issue from every different angle,

[00:28:37] especially when you're gonna pass legislation, you can't just be like, here's a law that works for me, a pretty white girl. It's like, no, like it has to work for everybody and so you have to study it from all sides and that helps just understand. Hey there listener.

[00:28:55] Hope you're enjoying this episode and that you're taking deep breaths when we cover the enraging stuff that cult jerks are up to. Let it out. As in the yoga practice, inhale positivity, exhale negativity. That's for you, Sarah. We got this. No hulking it out, all you will hulksters

[00:29:10] and if you need some helpful resources on the topic of cult recovery, check out our website at a littlebitculty.com. And now here's a brief message from our sponsors. Meals bring people together, but for many families, providing their next meal can be a challenge.

[00:29:27] You can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry Food Drive. All proceeds go toward local food banks and families. Now through January 31st, you can purchase an icon in-store or online or watch out for the blue Feeding the Hungry shelf tags

[00:29:43] where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries. Together, we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are your self-care non-negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga.

[00:29:59] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. I mean that's my personal and everyone's dream, isn't it? Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables. Like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature. Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it.

[00:30:14] Nature is a non-negotiable. Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded. Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks. I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel

[00:30:25] so much better all around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it. It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need

[00:30:35] and sometimes what I don't need. Like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people. You know what I mean? Thanks, therapy. Thanks for helping me see that. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online,

[00:30:47] designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge. Look, even when we know what makes us happy, it's hard to make time for it.

[00:31:00] But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever. Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H-E-L-P dot com slash culty. Where most hierarchies have a system

[00:31:19] that weeds you out because you're not performing, I can say, oh, I can score 50 points a game, but when I go out there and don't do it, I'm weeded out. But with spiritual bypassing, because you can pretend, and it's not always obvious when you're not performing,

[00:31:32] particularly to your audience, depending on their level of consciousness, Keith outsourced the performance to his curriculum. So it took the responsibility of actually embodying what he says to us, and we weren't there enough to none the wiser. Does that make sense? And I specifically think

[00:31:47] he also read Eckhart's book underlines certain passages. How he did it was... Including there's a module he taught called What Is. And I'd read your books first, so I feel like when I went into next year, I was like, oh, this rings true to me. And felt right.

[00:32:03] Eckhart, prepped you? Eckhart, you prepped me for my cults. You didn't know that. I don't blame you. It's really... I love my life. Well, the good thing is you can... You can disentangle what was true, or it might have been second hand. Delivery didn't come from his own

[00:32:22] deeper realization. It was second hand, but nevertheless, it was health to a limited extent. It was helpful to people. But then it became more and more contaminated with egoic stuff in this case, as is often the case. And to the point, his inner circle

[00:32:39] got the most travel when the bomb went off. Yes. And then even the truth can be distorted when the ego comes in. So even a true thing can become distorted. But it's the confusion of the human form of the teacher with the deeper essence that comes through.

[00:32:56] I remember there... I met some people who were followers of a teacher in India called Papaji. Papaji, I don't think it was a cult. He was a genuine spiritual teacher, and many people were helped by him. And then as he grew older,

[00:33:12] his mind was no longer working so well. And he couldn't express himself clearly anymore. And the teaching became a bit muddled. And that couple of people who told me about this, they were close followers of him. They were thrown into great confusion and suffering because of that

[00:33:30] this is not a real teacher. They were so disappointed that after listening to this great teacher, suddenly the teaching became unclear and muddled because he couldn't deliver it. His mind was weakening. He could not deliver the teaching anymore. And they were in a deep crisis,

[00:33:48] these people who told him about it. They were followers of his. They doubted everything. The reason, of course, was because they had confused the vehicle with the essence that youth... The vehicle was the mind, an instrument or vehicle for delivering the teaching. And transforming the teaching into words

[00:34:10] and delivering it and emanating it. They confused that with that which spoke through the teacher. I sometimes compare the teacher, I even compare myself of I'm the window frame. The thing about the window frame is it lets the light come through.

[00:34:26] It's a window, the light comes through the window. What matters? Not the window frame. How do you deal with that when people see you differently and put you on a pedestal? Or what's your response to that interaction? Is it uncomfortable for you?

[00:34:40] Are you used to it by now? Well, I often talk about that not to confuse... Even one could say the power that sometimes comes through. Not to confuse that with the person. The person is no more than a temporary vehicle or an opening for it

[00:34:59] or a channel for it. And I continuously point it out. But some people do it anyway. They still confuse... Have this confusion. And in India it's the custom for... When they meet a spiritual teacher they kiss your feet. So when I went to India that happened quite often

[00:35:18] and at first very uncomfortable. This has been the custom there for thousands of years. India is just different. They haven't... Spirituality is like... It's in the air. It's everywhere. I'm not saying that every Indian person is spiritual. There's a lot of materialism there too now. But nevertheless...

[00:35:36] So I just had to accept it. I don't talk it personally. I realize it's acknowledging the spirit not the form. Acknowledging... By the way, I use that. Human being, I often use that expression. Your human being. The human is the limited. It is the body and the mind.

[00:35:56] That's the human you, the personality, the person. And the being is that which is... Which transcends that, which is the consciousness. So when they kiss my feet it's acknowledgement of consciousness, not the human. But it's so easy to succumb to that

[00:36:11] and let it go to your head and say I am special. In a way everybody is special but the ego always looks for specialness. The ego wants... It compares itself to others and it wants to be special, more special. It wants to be superior.

[00:36:28] Yeah we like to believe we're better than we really are. Yes, it's the ego search. It's a continuous search for superiority. Now every cult leader knows that because in order to manipulate people if he is very unconscious or she he instills this sense of specialness in the followers.

[00:36:44] And sometimes singles out certain followers especially once you have sex with somebody this person becomes you are really special and then he tells them why they're special because we had many incarnations together and finally we have come in whatever past lives. And it feels...

[00:37:02] The ego feels wonderful with it. I'm so special. I finally arrived. Everything makes sense now but unfortunately it was all manipulation and at some point they may wake up to that but while it was working this incredible sense of superiority over ordinary humans

[00:37:22] and sometimes cults have a sense of everybody who is not a member of this cult is inferior. And they all... Some Christian sects also have that belief they're all wrong except us. Only we are going to be saved. Only our group is going to be saved.

[00:37:39] Everybody else is lost. That will be lost. That's a red flag. That's been a few of our episodes. I call it moral supremacy. Yeah now the ego if the ego cannot be an ordinary let's not say other than the spiritual ego which can be enormously strong

[00:37:57] an ordinary ego seeks superiority either through your body if your body is stronger or better looking in other people's body then you can identify with that becomes part of your sense of self egoic identity or it could be your possessions that you identify with

[00:38:15] if you have more and better things than others that is the ordinary ego or your achievements I can do this but you can't social status that you identify with as yourself all this is egoic superiority seeking something to be superior and in some cases

[00:38:33] people when they think of ego they think of people who have big egos they think they are the greatest when in some cases that's true but an ego that believes to be a victim is just as strong as an ego that says I am the greatest

[00:38:48] and this is particularly these days very popular form of ego is victim identity the more you are victim the greater your sense of self and society recognizes that these days it becomes a great thing if you belong to a victim group be your given special status

[00:39:06] and you leverage your victimhood for power and yeah not that of course some people were victims some people were abused as children and so on so you were victims or groups of people were victimized there's not denying that but to build an identity around that

[00:39:23] that's the egoic trap Instagram and trust me it'll be a really good decision for you hope you liked this a little bit culty summer remix episode finally remixed and lovingly curated like a cult busting Shakutri board Shakutri board straight from our podcast archives to your AirPods

[00:40:09] we'll be back soon with all new episodes and in the meantime you can always find us over on Patreon it's patreon.com slash a little bit culty dropping new episodes every week this month we've included special guests in Vancouver with John Bryant who wrote our song

[00:40:25] cultivated our theme song for a little bit culty and a very interesting episode with Sandra Namoto one of our former members of the Nexium community in Vancouver and our very part-time virtual assistant who had some interesting nuggets to share about her time in Nexium especially one agent

[00:40:40] which we haven't talked much about check those out on Patreon it's kind of like we took the mics on the road and did our traveling show right we really did it was a traveling show and you can see that on Patreon or hear that on Patreon

[00:40:51] and as always you can leave us a voicemail at a little bit culty.com to give us feedback until then don't join the cult thanks everyone and wear sunscreen and stay hydrated you don't have to wear sunscreen it's optional this is what made me end up

[00:41:01] be fight about weigh in sunscreen or no sunscreen happy summer hope you like this episode let's keep the conversation going and come hang out with us on Patreon where we keep the tape rolling each week with special episodes just for Patreon subscribers

[00:41:33] and where we get deep into the weeds of unpacking every episode of The Val and if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet sweet swag or official ALBC podcast merch or a list of our most recommended cult recovery resources visit our website at a littlebitculty.com

[00:41:48] and for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called Scarred the true story of how I escaped Nexium the cult that bound my life it's available on Amazon, Audible, Narrated by My Wife and at most bookstores

[00:42:00] a little bit culty is a talkhouse podcast and a Trace 120 production we're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames with writing, research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy we're edited, mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of Citizens of Sound

[00:42:17] and our amazing theme song Cultivated is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin thank you for listening