Dinner for Vampires: The Star of a Cult TV Show on Leaving a Real Life Cult (Part 2)

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[00:00:24] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:25] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:00:30] Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

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[00:01:22] Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:40] Hello, everyone. Welcome back to part two of our episode with Bethany Joy Lins, aka Joy.

[00:01:46] If you didn't listen to the first one, this one won't make sense. So go back, listen to the first one.

[00:02:10] Do you think that being on one tree hell in some ways saved you from going deeper sooner?

[00:02:15] Or have you reflected on how that kind of kept you away from the worst of it?

[00:02:20] Or do you think it... How do you grapple with the two worlds and how that all happened?

[00:02:25] Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, it could go either way.

[00:02:31] It's one of those why questions that I don't know that I'll ever completely get an answer to, maybe in the afterlife.

[00:02:36] But I don't know if in this life I'm going to get a real actual answer to that.

[00:02:43] I think it could go either way. It could have been that it was great for me because it kept me in a place of still having access to a very grounded, real, genuine part of myself.

[00:02:57] As I showed up on set every day and interacted with people and got to do the work that I love and access that part of my creativity.

[00:03:06] And I had an active way to exercise me, like outside of this group, just me being me.

[00:03:17] But then I would go back to Idaho and then experience all of the things that I was trying to put on me and tell myself that that's what was true.

[00:03:26] So, yeah, it could have really saved my life that it kept me by the time I was ready to leave.

[00:03:32] I still had a whole backlog of experience that I had been living a very authentic version of myself while I was in North Carolina.

[00:03:41] But at the same time, it's that prolonged torture, the learned helplessness that I was going through intense trauma.

[00:03:49] And then I had a break and I was like, OK, maybe I really am me.

[00:03:53] It's OK. I can I can learn. I can grow.

[00:03:55] I love feeling alive while I'm working. I love the people I'm working with.

[00:04:00] And then I go back to Idaho, experience more heavy trauma, but then I get a break.

[00:04:05] And so that creates this long lasting trauma and PTSD rather than if I had just been isolated in Idaho, maybe three, four years.

[00:04:15] I would have been like, you know what? I hate this. My life is miserable.

[00:04:19] I don't want to be here anymore. I'm out.

[00:04:21] That's a good point.

[00:04:22] Right. So I really don't know.

[00:04:24] So it delayed your awareness. Yeah. It delayed your awareness.

[00:04:27] It sounds like.

[00:04:27] But we don't know.

[00:04:28] Did you see it as I'm free and I'm going back to trauma?

[00:04:32] Was it that explicit in your own mind?

[00:04:35] No.

[00:04:36] No. No. In fact, I started to really crave being in Idaho because a tree can only grow the fruit of that tree.

[00:04:45] So the narcissism can only breed narcissism.

[00:04:48] And so that's what was we were all being taught to be little narcissists versions of ourselves where I was so obsessed with my need to be told good and bad things about myself.

[00:05:03] I was so obsessed with my need to be that tight knit in community where I felt like I had value and looking for my value all the time from other people that were in that group.

[00:05:13] That I saw One Tree Hill as something that was taking me away from from that.

[00:05:21] And I resented it many times.

[00:05:24] In retrospect, I'm really, really grateful for it.

[00:05:28] But yeah, at the time, there were many, many days, many years when I just hated being in North Carolina and wished that I could just go home and be a part of this community that was constantly feeding my ego.

[00:05:42] Whether it was a boost or a teardown, it didn't matter.

[00:05:45] Or it was all about me.

[00:05:48] I'm thinking about the One Tree Hill experience.

[00:05:51] And first of all, I just have to say, like, I resent NXIVM because I didn't have time to watch television.

[00:05:57] And I wish that I had because I would have loved it.

[00:06:00] In researching this, I was like, oh, that's totally my kind of show.

[00:06:04] So I'm sorry that I missed it.

[00:06:06] No problem.

[00:06:07] Glad I know you now.

[00:06:08] Glad I know you now.

[00:06:09] So that's cool.

[00:06:09] Yes.

[00:06:10] And we can do Hallmark together.

[00:06:11] But you touch on this a bit in your book about your castmates starting to whisper and kind of gossip.

[00:06:18] And did anyone ever, for those who haven't read the book, did anyone ever come right out and confront you?

[00:06:25] Yeah.

[00:06:25] Craig Sheffer, who played Uncle Keith, he's one of the only people who probably could have done it because he's just such a jovial guy and such a thoughtful, poetic, loving soul who doesn't want to hurt the air he breathes.

[00:06:39] You know, we were sitting at a basketball game.

[00:06:43] We were filming a basketball game at Laney High School.

[00:06:45] And he was asking me all these questions about my family, my family, where I lived and what my life was like there.

[00:06:54] And finally, he just was like, you know, you're in a cold, right?

[00:07:00] And he was so sweet.

[00:07:02] And I had a huge crush on him, too.

[00:07:03] So I was just like, oh, no, that's so silly.

[00:07:06] Of course not.

[00:07:07] Of course I'm not.

[00:07:07] And it made me kind of sad that people couldn't understand the concept of community living, like people who just really loved each other and were willing to be that honest and real and raw with each other.

[00:07:21] And it's like, man, that's so sad that other people don't get to experience this level of emotional intimacy.

[00:07:29] Like, oh, it's so sad.

[00:07:31] But it didn't bump me at all.

[00:07:34] And I had other people.

[00:07:37] I think Paul Johansson probably said it, too.

[00:07:39] But he also is like my mom in that way.

[00:07:42] Like, he'd move in a little and ask some questions and say a few things that if I bristled at all, he backed off.

[00:07:49] And I think that's probably what most people did.

[00:07:51] And I don't think they ever really got concerned until probably halfway through the show, maybe season six or seven, when my depression became really apparent.

[00:08:02] And I was just so, so unhappy.

[00:08:05] And I was gaining weight.

[00:08:07] And I was just always alone, always emotionally unpredictable.

[00:08:14] And I think then there were probably some meetings behind closed doors.

[00:08:19] I know there was one for sure of people that were like, do we need to really worry about her?

[00:08:24] Like, I know she's in this little religious club, but like, this seems like it's getting pretty bad.

[00:08:28] What's going on?

[00:08:29] Do you think there's anything that anyone could have said at that time when you look back?

[00:08:33] No, because I didn't trust any of them.

[00:08:35] Right.

[00:08:36] That's the tricky part.

[00:08:37] Anything they would have said, I would have been like, you're not spiritual enough to understand.

[00:08:41] Like, you don't have these, you don't have these spiritual eyes to be able to see like I do.

[00:08:49] You don't know what I know.

[00:08:50] Yeah.

[00:08:51] Oh, God.

[00:08:52] The sense of superiority.

[00:08:54] Like, isn't it amazing how you could have such a sense of superiority while you also have such a deep sense of self-loathing and depression?

[00:09:01] And like, how the mind can have those two things coexist is really incredible to me.

[00:09:09] It is.

[00:09:10] It's actually studies on how it works.

[00:09:13] I mean, it's kind of identity politics.

[00:09:16] You see it right now.

[00:09:17] Yeah.

[00:09:17] There's a lot of that stuff that go on.

[00:09:18] If you identify with your belief system, you're in trouble in some shape or form.

[00:09:24] It may not manifest right away, but you'll look back.

[00:09:27] And I've looked back on things that I believed and just rolled my eyes in addition to being in a cult.

[00:09:32] Right?

[00:09:33] Yeah.

[00:09:34] You know?

[00:09:34] And in the last five years, I've been able to upgrade or I don't even know if it's upgrading or downgrading.

[00:09:40] So it's difficult.

[00:09:41] Only time will tell.

[00:09:42] Yeah.

[00:09:42] Time will tell.

[00:09:43] That's interesting though, though, because if you, how could you not identify with your belief system?

[00:09:48] Your belief, like what you believe in is, I mean, if you're just picking and choosing random things to believe, then you're really just believing in yourself.

[00:09:56] I don't personally feel comfortable.

[00:09:59] I mean, I'm so flawed.

[00:10:00] I don't feel like I qualify to be, like to decide what's true and what's not true.

[00:10:08] I'll just, clearly I'm way too easily swayed.

[00:10:12] Like, I feel like there's got to be a real examination of belief systems and following those trails.

[00:10:19] Like there's got to be so much logic applied, so much willingness to really, really examine and find what belief system is going to produce the most love, the most compassion, and all of those things, all of those good things.

[00:10:34] But we have to identify with our beliefs.

[00:10:37] What else do we do?

[00:10:38] There's power in I don't know.

[00:10:40] Yeah.

[00:10:40] I guess there's the difference of having beliefs versus I am my beliefs.

[00:10:44] Yeah.

[00:10:45] Right?

[00:10:45] And that's what I think where the identification comes from.

[00:10:47] It's like, I'm so in my beliefs that I can't even see that that's a separation.

[00:10:53] I'm a person with beliefs.

[00:10:55] Like I'm a person carrying bags that are beliefs.

[00:10:58] Yeah.

[00:10:58] And you could put one down or pick another one up, which I think is healthier.

[00:11:02] Well, if I show you information that your belief is not in reality, you don't have a problem with seeing that.

[00:11:09] You can set that bag down and pick up a new one.

[00:11:11] You could exchange the bag.

[00:11:13] And your pride isn't identified with, I need this to be right because I've doubled down on it so much, so much, so much, so much.

[00:11:19] Yes.

[00:11:20] That's well said.

[00:11:21] Yeah.

[00:11:21] Well, it really comes down, I think, to your self-image because then I'm prideful about fortifying my self-image and my belief system is what keeps it in place.

[00:11:30] And then if I find out I'm not who I think I am, it's when the shame comes in and all that stuff.

[00:11:36] Shame.

[00:11:36] Yeah.

[00:11:37] Someone said something interesting.

[00:11:38] People will forgive you for being wrong, but they're not going to forgive you for being right.

[00:11:43] Yeah.

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[00:12:17] So lately, Sarah and I have been hard at work writing our new book.

[00:12:20] My first, Sarah's second, as she likes to remind me.

[00:12:23] And we're on a pretty tight schedule, right, Sarah?

[00:12:25] We are.

[00:12:26] We got a lot of writing to crank out.

[00:12:27] We're halfway through.

[00:12:28] We're getting there.

[00:12:29] Everything's due.

[00:12:30] ASAP, right?

[00:12:31] Rush, rush, rush.

[00:12:32] Go, go, go, as Sarah likes to say.

[00:12:35] We love the project, but with the podcast and parenting and sports and everything, keeping up with self-care routine has been, well, a struggle.

[00:12:43] It's an ongoing struggle.

[00:12:44] It's an ongoing balance, dare I say.

[00:12:46] And that's why we are both taking magnesium breakthrough every night.

[00:12:52] I steal Sarah's magnesium breakthrough.

[00:12:54] It's why my sleep has been a little bit better than yours, wouldn't you say?

[00:12:57] I have to hide it in the back of my drawer because I'm trying to hoard it for myself.

[00:13:01] I'm a bit of a bloodhound for magnesium.

[00:13:04] But I'm the one that really, well, I guess we both have a fair bit of stress and we have to be proactive about that.

[00:13:11] In fact, magnesium is responsible for over 300 body reactions and magnesium breakthrough is the only magnesium formula that delivers all seven different forms of magnesium, each with its unique benefits.

[00:13:23] One of them being feeling more calm, Sarah, centered and in control of our stress levels.

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[00:16:17] Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we?

[00:16:20] There were so many great moments in the book.

[00:16:22] I just loved it.

[00:16:23] Thank you.

[00:16:23] As you probably know from how many times I messaged you.

[00:16:26] Really good.

[00:16:27] Yeah, it's just so good.

[00:16:29] Specifically, I think our audience is really going to just relish it because

[00:16:34] it's so hard to go back.

[00:16:36] I was really amazed with how you were able to recount so many things in that decade that you were

[00:16:42] in the TV cult and the real cult and just writing those two worlds, which is really fascinating.

[00:16:48] And specifically sort of the thought process and your inner voice coming up and challenging things

[00:16:55] internally but not externally.

[00:16:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:57] Like, it's just hard to get back to those points.

[00:16:59] So we're not going to go into all the details because we want people to read the book.

[00:17:02] Yes.

[00:17:03] But whatever you feel comfortable with saying like what the final straw was that – because

[00:17:08] obviously things got, you know, worse.

[00:17:10] It was still a slow withdrawing.

[00:17:13] You know, it didn't happen all at once.

[00:17:14] It wasn't a big blow up.

[00:17:15] It was a slow step-by-step realization.

[00:17:20] I think one of the first steps was when two of the group members who were married had been

[00:17:29] secretly visiting a different church, like Catholic Church, for two years.

[00:17:33] And none of us had any idea.

[00:17:36] And it was like they had to do it in secret.

[00:17:38] They felt like they didn't want anyone to know, but they were exploring, as you said,

[00:17:45] Nippy, like the – being able to get new information and go, okay, well, what we're

[00:17:51] doing right now doesn't necessarily feel like that is the whole picture based on new information

[00:17:58] I've received.

[00:17:58] So I want to check out how other people are doing this and feeling fulfilled.

[00:18:03] So they started visiting Catholic Church two years.

[00:18:05] Eventually they decided to become Greek Orthodox and they left the group as a member of the

[00:18:13] church.

[00:18:14] So they were like, we're not going to still go to church with you guys, but we're all

[00:18:18] still friends.

[00:18:19] Like nothing's going to change.

[00:18:20] We just go to church somewhere else now.

[00:18:22] And I had no problem with it.

[00:18:24] It didn't even occur to me to have a problem with it.

[00:18:26] I was like, great.

[00:18:27] Like that sounds fun for you guys.

[00:18:30] And the leader, Les, really threw a fit.

[00:18:34] And then the other two leaders also had a huge problem with it.

[00:18:39] And I kind of got sucked into their perspective for a few months, but it just wouldn't sit

[00:18:46] right with me.

[00:18:47] And I credit a lot of that to becoming a mother in that moment because I had just become

[00:18:51] a mom.

[00:18:51] My daughter was months old, but I had gained this sense of it's that mother's instincts.

[00:18:58] It's the sense of like, there's this part of my life that I know no one can tell me how

[00:19:02] to do this.

[00:19:03] This is, this has to be me relying on myself, on my relationship with God directly.

[00:19:08] My husband can't tell me how to mother.

[00:19:10] These people can't tell me how to mother.

[00:19:11] I can get advice, but this really requires me being in touch with my instinct, which is

[00:19:16] something that I had really pushed out the window for the last 10 years.

[00:19:19] So having this, this connection to my own instinct combined with seeing my good friends step away

[00:19:28] from the group, seeing how so much of the group was reacting to that, feeling like the reaction

[00:19:33] wasn't right.

[00:19:35] And then starting to question that the more questions I brought out into the open, the more

[00:19:40] overt the opposition was to me from the leadership.

[00:19:45] And again, I was living in, I was very, very on the surface, living in the place of my instincts

[00:19:51] because of being a mom.

[00:19:53] And I just, I could see it.

[00:19:55] I don't know why I could see it.

[00:19:57] Then it just, all of the things aligned.

[00:19:58] And I started to see that something was off and I stopped trusting less.

[00:20:04] I stopped trusting the leader as much.

[00:20:06] And then I started trusting him even less because he just seemed so emotional about things that

[00:20:12] were not a big deal and seemed so adamant about things that I thought were kind of gray areas.

[00:20:19] And I started to think for myself and that happened for another few months.

[00:20:23] Have you had the thought that that connection as a mother was your bio family, that you were

[00:20:28] replicating your bio family and your bio family actually helped you get your intuition back

[00:20:33] online?

[00:20:33] Oh, because she was now my bio family or that I was hers?

[00:20:38] Yeah.

[00:20:38] But yeah, like being, yeah.

[00:20:40] It's ironic that he was trying to separate the bio family and now your bio family was

[00:20:44] like, wait, bio family is actually really important.

[00:20:46] Yeah, it's super relevant.

[00:20:48] Yeah.

[00:20:49] You can't override nature.

[00:20:50] Yeah.

[00:20:51] So the less I trusted him, the more I started to trust myself and my own instincts and marriage

[00:20:57] was falling apart.

[00:20:58] The rest of the group was starting to fall apart because of a lot of fighting, a lot of,

[00:21:03] there were a lot of little things that had been brewing that were finally coming to a

[00:21:07] head.

[00:21:07] And I detail in the book, one of them, you know, there was a huge fight that broke out

[00:21:12] among the group at a softball game that we all-

[00:21:14] That was the craziest.

[00:21:15] I texted him, Sarah, I was like, did you get to the softball game or volleyball?

[00:21:19] Was it volleyball?

[00:21:19] Softball.

[00:21:20] Softball game.

[00:21:21] I was like, what's that?

[00:21:22] I know.

[00:21:22] That was one of the things in The Vow.

[00:21:24] I remember watching you guys all playing sports and I called a friend of mine who was in the

[00:21:28] group, the Emily character.

[00:21:29] And I was like, these guys all have the same playbook.

[00:21:32] Like even team sports, like make sure everybody's playing, you know, playing team sports.

[00:21:37] Yeah.

[00:21:38] So yeah, we had that.

[00:21:39] It was a softball game.

[00:21:40] The guys always did for years, but yeah, everything blew up there.

[00:21:43] I mean, it was a full, full brawl and I was just like, this shit is crazy.

[00:21:51] Like what is going on?

[00:21:53] And then I could really see the people who were acting like everything was normal.

[00:21:56] And I'm going, no, no, no, no.

[00:21:58] I saw it with my own eyes.

[00:22:00] I saw crazy shit go down with my own eyes.

[00:22:02] You can't tell me I didn't see that.

[00:22:04] You can't tell me it wasn't bananas and crazy and people acting a fool.

[00:22:08] Like I know what I saw.

[00:22:11] And there were enough moments of that, the happening over the course of probably six months

[00:22:18] that I finally got to the place where after the separation in my marriage and I started

[00:22:26] to see how everybody was behaving toward me.

[00:22:29] Cause I was still like, well, look, it's separated.

[00:22:32] I don't want to ask your family for advice for like a year.

[00:22:35] Let's just give it a break, but let's still, this is our family.

[00:22:38] These are our friends.

[00:22:39] This is our group, my tribe, blah, blah, blah.

[00:22:40] I was still there.

[00:22:42] And then once the marriage really fell apart and I started to see people who had been calling

[00:22:48] themselves my best friends for 10 years now showing up flanking my ex for, you know,

[00:22:54] exchanges like custody exchanges and watching them just try and intimidate me.

[00:22:59] And amazing, right?

[00:23:00] The anger that they felt toward me and the way that I was just like, this is on another level.

[00:23:07] I don't know what is going on, but I got to get out.

[00:23:11] Yeah.

[00:23:12] When did you go from this is toxic and I don't like it to this is a cult?

[00:23:15] Cause your dad helped you with that or had you put those pieces together?

[00:23:18] When did the cult word come into play?

[00:23:21] The, I mean, I was sitting in a therapist's office and she said, are we ready to call

[00:23:27] it a cult?

[00:23:27] I mean, that was, that was just a flat out.

[00:23:29] She was like, I, we really need to like make some progress here.

[00:23:33] Can you, can you call it what it was?

[00:23:34] Um, and it made me really angry and really embarrassed and felt ashamed.

[00:23:41] And I just wasn't, I was not, I was not ready to call it that because of all the things it

[00:23:45] must mean about me if I, if I got involved in something like that.

[00:23:49] So I couldn't possibly admit it until I, it probably took me a few days.

[00:23:54] And then I was like, all right, well, I certainly can't grow if I'm not honest.

[00:23:58] So, um, and, and I started to become comfortable with the idea, but my dad, he's an incredibly

[00:24:06] intelligent man, um, had been a journalism teacher and a Bible teacher and history teacher,

[00:24:12] world history.

[00:24:13] And always, I always grew up with him challenging my brain all the time, car rides to school,

[00:24:21] sitting around the house over breakfast cereal.

[00:24:25] There was always some kind of critical thinking, problem solving question that he was putting

[00:24:31] to me to get those wheels in motion.

[00:24:34] And, you know, I mean, it just goes to show you can be a really amazing critical thinker,

[00:24:39] but if you've got a gaping wound that needs to be filled by community or whatever that

[00:24:45] childhood wound is, you'll push everything aside to be able to feel that thing that you

[00:24:51] feel like is going to fill that hole.

[00:24:53] Uh, nevertheless, my dad was so smart and had been doing research for so long and yeah, just

[00:25:02] showed up and was like, here's, here's all the information I could find on less on his

[00:25:09] family, on his former churches, on people who he's sued people that's have been, have

[00:25:17] sued him.

[00:25:18] Some people that have, there was a guy that was so upset by what he'd done.

[00:25:22] He, he painted less and his last name on is a, is a false prophet on the side of a bus

[00:25:28] and drove it across the country.

[00:25:31] Wow.

[00:25:31] Like people hate this man.

[00:25:35] And a lot of them were willing to talk about it.

[00:25:37] And my dad had found a lot.

[00:25:39] And it was really, really helpful for me as I proceeded into, um, into court.

[00:25:45] Where did that end up?

[00:25:46] Did you ever get any of your millions of dollars back or did you just let it all go?

[00:25:50] No, I have no idea.

[00:25:51] I mean, it could be buried in a hole in the ground.

[00:25:54] It could have all been spent.

[00:25:56] Uh, I really have no idea.

[00:25:58] What about the woman who gambled your money?

[00:26:00] Did she ever give anybody money back?

[00:26:02] No, no.

[00:26:03] She got a hug and, uh, and then, uh, was hired to, to be somebody's assistant again at one

[00:26:09] point.

[00:26:11] It was all just, it was all such a mess.

[00:26:15] For more context on what brought us here, check out my memoir.

[00:26:18] It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that found my life.

[00:26:23] I narrate the audio version and it's also available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores.

[00:26:28] And now a brief message from our little bit culty sponsors.

[00:26:30] And remember when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast.

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[00:28:29] So lately, Sarah and I have been hard at work writing our new book.

[00:28:32] My first, Sarah's second, as she likes to remind me.

[00:28:35] And we're on a pretty tight schedule, right, Sarah?

[00:28:37] We are.

[00:28:37] We got a lot of writing to crank out.

[00:28:39] We're halfway through.

[00:28:40] We're getting there.

[00:28:41] Everything's due ASAP, right?

[00:28:43] Rush, rush, rush.

[00:28:44] Go, go, go, as Sarah likes to say.

[00:28:46] We love the project, but with the podcast and parenting and sports and everything, keeping

[00:28:51] up with self-care routine has been, well, a struggle.

[00:28:55] It's an ongoing struggle, ongoing balance, dare I say.

[00:28:58] And that's why we are both taking magnesium breakthrough every night.

[00:29:04] I steal Sarah's magnesium breakthrough.

[00:29:06] It's why my sleep has been a little bit better than yours, wouldn't you say?

[00:29:08] I have to hide it in the back of my drawer because I'm trying to hoard it for myself.

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[00:30:02] If you're also trying to balance life's demands, give it a try.

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[00:30:31] stress-free days.

[00:30:36] Break time's over, people.

[00:30:37] Let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty.

[00:30:40] It's a good one.

[00:30:42] That's so wild.

[00:30:43] And no judgment.

[00:30:44] We had some very similar things in NXIVM.

[00:30:46] People were dropping balls everywhere and then they'd be like, yeah, we're growing humans

[00:30:50] and that requires failure.

[00:30:52] So that's...

[00:30:53] Yep.

[00:30:53] Yeah.

[00:30:54] Except when it's you.

[00:30:55] When you drop the ball.

[00:30:57] Oh boy.

[00:30:58] It was also similar.

[00:30:59] We found out how bad Keith was after the fact as well, which didn't help our shame.

[00:31:04] All the stuff started to come untangled way afterward for you guys.

[00:31:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:31:08] We watched The Vow and learned about him.

[00:31:10] No.

[00:31:11] After like episode three or four, we were watching shit going, huh?

[00:31:14] That was going on?

[00:31:15] When we blew the whistle, we knew what we knew, but there was so much more that we

[00:31:18] didn't know.

[00:31:19] And then everyone...

[00:31:20] We're kind of the first people through the door and then everyone started coming out

[00:31:22] and I think that was similar in your situation.

[00:31:24] Yeah.

[00:31:25] I have a feeling that that's probably the case in my situation as well.

[00:31:28] I mean, I think...

[00:31:30] I know there's a lot that I don't know.

[00:31:32] There were a lot of untethered trails that I just...

[00:31:36] There was no way for me to follow or the people would refuse to speak or...

[00:31:40] But at the end of the day, it felt like I had a child to raise and it wasn't...

[00:31:47] It wasn't my battle to fight, which is hard.

[00:31:52] Like I don't want him to do that to anybody else, but I don't know.

[00:31:56] Being public this way is part of the court thing.

[00:31:59] You know, your lawyers were probably right at that time.

[00:32:02] It would have been very hard to prove coercive control and manipulation.

[00:32:05] Yeah.

[00:32:06] Because it looks like you made choices.

[00:32:08] You know, they don't understand how you were manipulated into those choices.

[00:32:12] You don't really have a choice.

[00:32:13] And there's a paper trail of your choices.

[00:32:15] Yeah.

[00:32:16] But you did...

[00:32:17] They were smart.

[00:32:18] But the book will help, I think.

[00:32:19] How did you decide to write the book and how has that been for you?

[00:32:24] It came up...

[00:32:25] I mean, I've always written chapters and songs and poems and...

[00:32:29] Like it's...

[00:32:30] Writing about this has been a catharsis for me for a long time, but it always just ends up in a drawer.

[00:32:35] I wasn't necessarily trying to do anything with it.

[00:32:37] I just wanted to be able to take...

[00:32:40] Like harness my experience and do something with it that felt like it was out of my body

[00:32:45] and not just a big jumble inside my head.

[00:32:48] And then when the opportunity came up to write a book...

[00:32:51] I mean, it was literally a fan question on Drama Queens, my podcast, that somebody said,

[00:32:57] would you guys ever consider writing a book?

[00:32:59] Would any of you consider writing a book?

[00:33:02] Because Hillary had written rural diaries.

[00:33:06] And so I think they were asking Sophia and I...

[00:33:09] And I just kind of offhandedly, I was like, well, yeah.

[00:33:11] I mean, it was in a cult for 10 years.

[00:33:12] I sure would have a lot to say.

[00:33:13] But maybe one day I'll get around to it.

[00:33:16] But I had mentioned that I was in a cult before and I had...

[00:33:20] Like there were places I had talked about that.

[00:33:22] So it didn't...

[00:33:23] The reason I said it that way was because I thought everyone had already heard it and it

[00:33:26] wasn't of any real interest.

[00:33:28] So I just kind of blurted it out and it got picked up by every news media outlet around the world.

[00:33:36] It was unbelievable.

[00:33:37] And my manager's calling me like, you need to consider this.

[00:33:42] Okay.

[00:33:44] Yeah.

[00:33:45] And I wrote a book proposal.

[00:33:47] Just like, okay, if I'm going to do this, I want to do it in a way that is most helpful.

[00:33:53] I'm not trying to get revenge on anyone.

[00:33:56] I'm past that point in my life.

[00:33:57] I'm not trying to enact justice.

[00:34:01] That's another song for another day.

[00:34:03] Like I am just wanting to help people.

[00:34:06] And so how do I tell this story in a way that is respectful of my daughter, respectful of

[00:34:13] her father, respectful of the fact that there are so many people who were involved in this

[00:34:20] group who are still around today.

[00:34:22] And some of them haven't processed that.

[00:34:25] Like some of them still won't call it a cult.

[00:34:27] Like they just are like, it was just an unhealthy dynamic and we're not in that anymore.

[00:34:33] And that's their journey.

[00:34:34] I don't want to, I'm not trying to like, for people who have experienced narcissistic

[00:34:40] abuse, I want this to help them.

[00:34:43] If you haven't experienced it, I want you to read this book and know how to not go through

[00:34:48] it by spotting signs ahead of time.

[00:34:50] And that's really my aim.

[00:34:52] So I did my best.

[00:34:54] I think you did a great job.

[00:34:56] Thanks.

[00:34:56] I thought it was great.

[00:34:57] Yeah.

[00:34:57] And the day that the news outlets picked it up, we also got inundated because all of our

[00:35:01] audience was like, Bethany Joy Lentz is talking about you, A.

[00:35:06] And B, you have to have her on.

[00:35:07] I'm like, oh, I know.

[00:35:08] We are in touch.

[00:35:09] Yeah.

[00:35:09] I was like, who me?

[00:35:11] Yeah.

[00:35:12] So that's so great about the book.

[00:35:14] And I can't wait to also, I'm going to re-listen to it because you narrate the audible version,

[00:35:18] right?

[00:35:18] Yes.

[00:35:19] And like, obviously it's so cool because you have the skills to do that.

[00:35:22] I hope so.

[00:35:23] I mean, there were like 12 people in a room talking to each other at the same time.

[00:35:27] So I really should have thought of that when I was writing the book.

[00:35:31] Oh, I didn't have thought about that.

[00:35:32] All the voices.

[00:35:33] That's really hard.

[00:35:35] Did you have like different kind of voices or like intonations for less?

[00:35:38] Oh yeah, you know, Pam is just such a high, she's, she is so soft and gentle.

[00:35:43] And I just love when Pam talks because it is so welcoming.

[00:35:49] And, you know, Les has got this real Midwest, you know, vibe.

[00:35:54] And he just really wants everybody to know how humble and just like one of the guys, you

[00:36:01] know, he's just so easy to listen to.

[00:36:05] I had fun with it.

[00:36:06] But I mean, I tried not to do it in a way that would be distracting or weird, but you

[00:36:10] know, I wanted it to be enjoyable to listen to and not confusing.

[00:36:14] So, you know, we messaged a bit about this when your tour started.

[00:36:17] How has it been like on your mental health to like keep talking about it?

[00:36:21] Like, has it been cathartic?

[00:36:21] Is it draining?

[00:36:22] How are you doing?

[00:36:23] I think about what you said though, in our text exchange, which was, you know, space

[00:36:27] it out.

[00:36:28] It's a lot when they're just one on top of the other.

[00:36:30] And so I've done that, which has really helped.

[00:36:33] Um, I even still sometimes though, like all week I've had two or three a day, which I thought,

[00:36:40] oh, I can handle that like two in the morning and one later on in the afternoon.

[00:36:44] But I did that Friday, no Thursday, Friday, Monday, Tuesday.

[00:36:50] And by Wednesday, I was really exhausted.

[00:36:54] I've been okay.

[00:36:56] It's, it can be, it's fine until suddenly it hits me.

[00:37:01] I think that's just my, I, yeah.

[00:37:04] I don't know if that's a trauma response.

[00:37:06] Yeah.

[00:37:06] Like you just are like, no, it's good.

[00:37:07] It's good.

[00:37:07] It's good.

[00:37:08] It's good.

[00:37:08] And then all of a sudden I'm like, oh my God, I need to cry, but nothing's wrong.

[00:37:12] But I don't know.

[00:37:15] I don't know what to do.

[00:37:16] Yeah.

[00:37:17] So I'm navigating it day by day and just trying to really listen to myself and take care of

[00:37:21] myself too in the process.

[00:37:23] I don't know.

[00:37:24] How was that for you guys?

[00:37:25] I mean, did you have a big press tour that you were constantly like having to space things

[00:37:32] out and, and cancel things because you were too exhausted or what?

[00:37:36] Yep.

[00:37:37] For my book tour, I actually had to cancel the Vancouver leg of it because I'd done New York

[00:37:41] and Toronto.

[00:37:41] And by the time I got to Vancouver, I actually was having on top of the exhaustion and sort

[00:37:45] of PTSD of like the reliving it.

[00:37:47] I was having a reaction to a sleeping medication that I didn't know till later was messing me

[00:37:54] up.

[00:37:54] So I was actually like kind of unstable on top of it all, which was awful and didn't figure

[00:37:59] that out till later.

[00:38:00] I actually thought I was having like a nervous breakdown versus like a medical, like chemical

[00:38:05] imbalance, which was really bad.

[00:38:07] That's so, and then there's the feeling on top of that, I imagine of like, the whole point

[00:38:12] is that you're trying to show that you're sane and you're, you know, this is like something

[00:38:16] that happened that you've come out of and you're healthy now.

[00:38:19] But if you still feel like you're loopy and like, you can't go out there looking like

[00:38:24] you're not totally well.

[00:38:27] Yeah.

[00:38:28] No, and I definitely was not, not well.

[00:38:30] And there's been different like kind of waves of it.

[00:38:33] There was like the first wave and it was like the New York Times and like that initial

[00:38:35] press and then there was another wave of it when I did my book and then another wave

[00:38:38] with HBO.

[00:38:39] So there's different stages of it, but I definitely have learned even back then, like you said,

[00:38:45] I mean, I was just, I was happy to do as much as we could to get the word out and the message

[00:38:49] out.

[00:38:49] But then I was like, I can't do more than one a day.

[00:38:51] Now I don't do more than one a week.

[00:38:53] That's good.

[00:38:54] Yeah.

[00:38:56] What is that main message for you?

[00:38:57] Like since you're, and it's so great that you, I know you have such a like devoted audience

[00:39:02] from One Tree Hill, like how amazing that you have this platform and you can be like,

[00:39:07] hey guys, you should learn from this.

[00:39:10] Like what's the main, what's the main nugget you would say to your, to, to your listener,

[00:39:16] your, your hate words, we're followers, but you know, the people that look up to you and

[00:39:22] follow you on Instagram, let's say that.

[00:39:24] And they're going to read your book and that's awesome.

[00:39:27] What do you, what's the main thing you want them to take away from it in terms of red flags

[00:39:31] and spotting things?

[00:39:33] Examine your belief system.

[00:39:35] Like it's, it's what we were talking about before.

[00:39:37] Like be willing to be wrong.

[00:39:41] Look at the fruit of what it's producing in your life.

[00:39:43] And it doesn't necessarily have to be your belief system about God.

[00:39:48] It could even just be what you're believing about the stories that you're telling yourself

[00:39:51] about certain relationships in your life that are producing bad, you know, I say bad fruit

[00:39:58] or like a bad patterns or negative output, negative feelings.

[00:40:04] You know, there's the things in your life where there's.

[00:40:08] Discord.

[00:40:09] No, I'm not so the word.

[00:40:10] Yeah.

[00:40:10] Discord's good.

[00:40:11] Like the places in your life where there's discord, consider it.

[00:40:15] Like really think critically.

[00:40:17] Don't just go along with whatever you're being told.

[00:40:20] Like you have a brain spend time really examining things and, and be, be humble enough to admit

[00:40:28] where your own blind spots might be based on those childhood wounds, those needs that we

[00:40:34] have to fill and be willing to admit that maybe some of the things that some of the stories

[00:40:41] you're telling yourself or the beliefs that you've set up are just trying to make yourself

[00:40:45] feel better to fill a void rather than being actually true or helpful.

[00:40:52] I mean, it's, it's a long, it's a long winded takeaway, but it's, it's just be willing to

[00:40:58] examine, be really humble and willing to examine what you believe.

[00:41:01] That's good advice.

[00:41:02] I mean, that was what I was hoping by the end of the book that people would recognize

[00:41:05] is the sense of what we were talking about, shame that everybody's making mistakes.

[00:41:10] All the time.

[00:41:11] We were all just human beings and we make mistakes and it's okay.

[00:41:17] And the more that you hold onto the shame about the mistakes that you've made, the more it's

[00:41:22] going to isolate you, the less likely you are to become open-minded and loving and accepting

[00:41:29] and empathetic of other people and their mistakes.

[00:41:32] Like, let it go.

[00:41:34] You just have to keep letting it go.

[00:41:35] Let the shame go.

[00:41:37] It's, it isn't your fault.

[00:41:38] And even if it is your fault, it's still okay.

[00:41:42] Yeah.

[00:41:43] It's such a fine line between like, I participated in this because of this part of aspect of myself

[00:41:48] or my upbringing or whatever versus I'm bad and it's my fault.

[00:41:51] Yeah.

[00:41:52] Like the blame.

[00:41:53] At worst you were targeted.

[00:41:54] Yeah.

[00:41:54] And that's another thing to know these, these people seek out people like us with these open

[00:41:59] wounds and trying to fill it with community or meaning or purpose or God or success or whatever

[00:42:05] it is that they're like, I have it.

[00:42:07] I know how to dangle it and offer it to you and it's going to be so good.

[00:42:11] Yeah.

[00:42:12] It's, it's amazing how, how that works.

[00:42:15] But I totally agree.

[00:42:18] I feel like we could talk for a long time.

[00:42:20] I'm also very aware of your schedule and wanting to make sure that you go for a long

[00:42:24] walk or have a hot bath or just take care of yourself.

[00:42:27] And I just want to thank you for your time.

[00:42:30] I just appreciate you so much.

[00:42:32] Thank you guys.

[00:42:33] I appreciate you too.

[00:42:34] I love, I love the work that you're doing here.

[00:42:36] And I love the sense of, uh, the sense of hope that you have, even just the title of your

[00:42:41] show.

[00:42:42] It's, it's like keeping this sense of humor about it that you can only have a sense of humor

[00:42:49] if you've let go of shame and if you feel hope, otherwise you just, it eats away at you.

[00:42:55] And so the fact that you're living from a place of lightheartedness, even though you can

[00:43:00] go to the heavy places is so, so huge for the people in these communities that are getting

[00:43:06] out and need healing.

[00:43:07] And I'm really grateful that you're doing what you're doing.

[00:43:09] And I'm so glad that we're friends.

[00:43:11] Same here.

[00:43:12] Thank you for saying that.

[00:43:13] Thank you for having me on the show.

[00:43:14] Thank you so much for coming.

[00:43:16] I really hope our entire audience gets this book, reads this book, shares this book.

[00:43:20] It's so important.

[00:43:21] And I'm so excited that your audience now will feel hopefully less ashamed to admit where

[00:43:27] they've been duped or they've been caught up in something.

[00:43:29] Doesn't even have to be a cult.

[00:43:31] Like you said, just something unhealthy, something toxic.

[00:43:34] It happens to everybody and you're shining a light on it.

[00:43:37] It's such a gift.

[00:43:38] So thank you.

[00:43:39] Thank you.

[00:43:40] Thank you so much.

[00:43:41] I'm really grateful.

[00:43:44] Do you like what you hear on a little bit culty?

[00:43:46] Then please do give us a rating, a review and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify or wherever

[00:43:50] you listen.

[00:43:51] Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it.

[00:43:55] Maybe they're in a cult.

[00:43:57] Maybe they're a little bit susceptible.

[00:43:59] Just share the love.

[00:44:00] Thanks.

[00:44:02] I don't think we could have asked for a better guest to kick off our new season.

[00:44:05] Thank you again to Bethany Joy Lenz for spending time with us and sharing her experience with us.

[00:44:10] If you want to learn more, we encourage you to grab a copy of Joy's new book,

[00:44:14] Dinner for Vampires at your local bookstores.

[00:44:16] If you're looking for more culty content, come join us on the Patreon.

[00:44:19] We are currently re-watching The Vow with a dear friend and talking to X and Xe members

[00:44:24] who have never told their stories publicly before.

[00:44:27] Yes, we are cold chilling over there on Patreon.

[00:44:29] So come join us.

[00:44:30] Till next time.

[00:44:49] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production.

[00:44:52] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames

[00:44:55] in collaboration with Amphibian Media.

[00:44:57] Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy.

[00:45:00] Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios.

[00:45:02] And our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder.

[00:45:05] Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.

[00:45:10] Thank you.