Framed: Dr. C on Coercive Control and Family Court Trauma

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:25] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty. Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:49] For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows? You could already be in a cult. If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out. We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware, this podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners. So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself.

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[00:01:41] We have an episode today that might piss you off a little bit, and we hope it does, because maybe that will mean that you take some action, as we are inspired to do. Our guest today is Dr. Christine Cochiola. We like to call her Dr. C because it's easier. Dr. C is a college professor and social justice advocate with a doctorate in clinical social work. She's also a familiar face to the show. Last time Dr. C came on, she told us about how she survived a coercive controller and narcissistic abuser, her ex-husband, and the father of her children.

[00:02:10] Check out season five, episode 19 if you want to hear more of her story. Today, Dr. C is taking us on a deeper dive into how family life with a coercive controller can be like living in a cult. Yep, and it's not always easy to spot right away. It can be very insidious. It can include gaslighting, subtle belittling, diminishing a spouse to their children. These tactics aren't as overt as physical abuse, but they can be just as harmful, and we'll definitely get into the red flags.

[00:02:35] And the problems don't always end after escaping. Dr. C co-authored a book called Framed, Women in the Family Court Underworld. It's about our messed up court system and how navigating it can be harder for abused women than people realize. Of course, the biggest victims in all of this are the kids involved. We'll cover the long-term effects coercive control has on them and what parents can do to protect them. Dr. C has a ton of professional and personal experience with this, and we just adore her. Let's welcome her back to the show.

[00:03:19] Welcome back, Dr. Cochiola. Dr. C, how are you? I'm good. How are you? Thank you for having me. I'm so glad that we're able to have you back because I feel like we've learned a lot since we had you. I was on Dr. Laura Richards, and she said, where did you hear about coercive control originally? I was like, I think it might have been from Dr. Cochiola, I think. I think you were the first person to introduce that term, and now it's like we talk about it all the time in the podcast and our TED Talk. So let's start there for our listeners who didn't hear the first episode with you. Can you define it, and we'll go from there?

[00:03:48] Sure, and my definition of it has kind of evolved. So, yeah, so I used to – you know, I think when I – you guys know I've been doing this work since I was 19. I've been a social justice advocate working to support victims and survivors of all kinds of abuse, including, of course, most specifically children since the age of 19. You know, but I did what so many people have done historically is look through the violent incident model when we think about abuse.

[00:04:15] And so when I began this coercive control-like journey with Dr. Evan Stark and got my doctorate in it and really researched it, I was really looking through the nonviolent incident model, right, like beyond the violent incident model, but also looking at it through domestic abuse, like partnerships. And the reality is, man, I see it as the underpinning of all abuse.

[00:04:40] Like I just – like whenever someone abuses us, whether it's individually in like partnerships or it's in systems, if it's in governments, it doesn't matter if it's individual to individual or groups of people exerting power and control over groups of people. It's abuse that's based on power and control.

[00:05:05] I mean, like I look at racism, sexism, genderism, all of these isms, ageism. Like what is all of this about? Even like if a parent is disciplining a child and is abusive in that discipline, are they actually trying to have control over the child, right? And so I see coercive control as the underpinning of all abuse now.

[00:05:32] Like I've kind of evolved into this like I want people to see that if this is happening to you at work by an employer or if this is happening to you, you know, with a group of friends or, you know, racism again is such a great example of that, isn't it? Like racists want to exert power and control over individuals. I mean, the treatment of women in society.

[00:05:56] So, I mean, it's a pattern of behavior where one person or group of people diminish another person or group of people's autonomy, their agency. And it's a liberty crime. It takes away freedom, freedom to be who we truly are. So that's my long, short version of it all. I think that there's an awareness now, right, that, you know, I don't know about when you guys were growing up,

[00:06:23] but when I was growing up, discipline was much more about exerting power over, right? Yeah. Spankings. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. And maybe put downs or diminishing someone versus creating a space where our children learn that they have agency so that, frankly, as they develop, they continue to have agency in all of their relationships. Mm-hmm. Amazing. Well, we got right into it. I'm glad.

[00:06:50] But I have to say, Nippy and I have been reading this book, and thank you so much for sending it to me. We'll certainly be putting Framed on our Goodreads account and- It's infuriating. And talking about it in the podcast and promoting it because it's so important. But it's all, yeah, I was really, I've been in a really bad mood for the last four days since reading it. Just like so angry and frustrated. Nippy can attest to it. He's like, what's going on with you? I'm like, I'm just pissed. I'm so- This is before I started it. I said, what's going on over here?

[00:07:20] And then I started it. Yeah. It is really distressing. He started it after me. It's very distressing. It's really concerning. Yeah. I mean, it's really, I did a training in New Jersey to 150 advocates and lawyers a couple of weeks ago. And one woman who's an advocate at this particular agency, she's been a lawyer for 30 years. And she said, you know, can we talk about the book? And I said, sure. And she said, these are the worst stories you received, right?

[00:07:47] And I'm like, these are the stories I hear every day. I was sitting at my kitchen table last April. And I said, that's it. I have to get this out in a book. I have to. They're case studies. I have to do this. And, you know, it just was like, how do we get the word out there so that more people actually recognize that this is not an anomaly? This is, it's like an epidemic. It's pretty startling. Even she sought to minimize it. Yeah.

[00:08:17] This lawyer who's been working in the system for 30 years, she said, these are the worst stories. I'm like, no, they are not. These are the stories. These are the stories. And then I had an expert in the field, someone not necessarily an expert in course of control, but someone approached me and say, that first story, that's not course of control. And I said, yes, it is. And she said, I worry about putting everything under the auspices of course of control.

[00:08:45] And then we minimize the experiences of like people who are really experiencing it. And I said, I worry about not putting everything that belongs under course of control and then minimizing the experiences of victims. Because as you know, course of control doesn't have to be extreme. It can be very insidious and nuanced.

[00:09:05] You know, I was in a relationship with someone for 35 years of my life, not recognizing because there was nothing very extreme until the end, until the post-separation abuse occurred. I remember when you told us your story originally on our podcast and what initiated this line of work for you. What's happened since then and now that's triggered the desire to write this book specifically? Is it the number of stories, the similarity of stories? What's happened for you? Yeah.

[00:09:35] Yeah. So I think what happened was I've always been like doing therapy and educating on this topic. But then I specifically began working with victims, survivors of coercive control. And, you know, you guys understand like this pathology of these abusers is their intent on revenge. And that often happens when a victim tries to escape. Right. And as you, you know, we reflect back on my story. My children were indoctrinated at a very young age against me. And I didn't know it.

[00:10:05] Right. So this is what abusers do is I believe that they capitalize on a vulnerability. And what's the most what's the thing most protective parents are most vulnerable about their children. Right. And how much they love their children. And so my abuser started indoctrinating my children at a very young age. Which unbeknownst to me, I thought I was still in a kind of loving relationship. I was still trying to make it work. And I did for quite a few years afterward.

[00:10:33] But then when I escaped or attempted to escape and then decided to go get my doctorate in clinical social work and focus on coercive control, I began working specifically in this population. And every story over and over and over again. It's like a parent would be accused of alienating their children from an abusive parent when actually the abuser was trying to do that to them. Like the whole Darvo thing. Right. Right.

[00:11:03] Denying and attacking that they were doing anything wrong and saying that the victim was doing it. And there was a fracturing of attachment. That's what I call it. Like abusers want to maliciously fracture the attachment between the protective parent and the children. And that is so harmful to the developing brain. And so my work started in this, you know, protecting children from abuse. And then all of a sudden full circle, even though I was doing it along the way, but full circle.

[00:11:32] Now I'm working with protective parents whose children are being turned against them and they're the protective parent. And abusers are getting custody. Like what? Like an abuser is getting custody? So then that was like, oh my gosh. The world needs to know what's really going on in the system. How the system is complicit in this. How the system is not protecting children from abusers. I mean, that's the line. How come the system is not protecting children from abusers?

[00:12:02] And how come? Like, how come? Because Nibi and I read this and we're like, what is happening behind closed doors that these judges are awarding custody to abusive, in many cases, most cases it seems, fathers. And how is it not being, like how has there not been like a whistleblower until now? Well, I think people have been talking about it and we know that it's been a problem. But it's hard. I think the issue is we silence victims, right?

[00:12:27] I mean, so if we know the court system doesn't believe when a woman comes forward and says she's a domestic abuse victim, right? When we know that, that's the case. She's disbelieved at 55% of the time. When she says her children are being abused, she's disbelieved of a rate of above 70% of the time. And when she says her children are being sexually abused, she's disbelieved at a rate of 85% of the time. This is a very large research study by Joan Maier. And so if I'm not going to be believed, what happens oftentimes is women just don't even share that.

[00:12:56] Like, what's the incentive? And frankly, if I do, and then he claims that I've alienated my children against him, when actually my children are afraid of him, right? But he says I'm an alienator. He gets custody upwards sometimes of four times greater. So it's better to be silenced. So victims are silenced. And then what happens is all of these stories are siloed instead of all of us coming together. And frankly, the problem is patriarchy.

[00:13:24] There's a ruling in 1607 in England that basically says that a judge, even if they act maliciously, they are not held to account. And that same ruling is in place across the world. Judges have judicial immunity. You don't go to trial when you're getting a divorce, right? A judge makes a decision based on the information they receive from court professionals. And if these court professionals are people who may be receiving extra money.

[00:13:53] Or frankly, I took the guardian ad litem training here in the state of Connecticut just for intel. And what was very evident to me is that if my bias is to protect children, which it should be, then I am not going to be called. I'm not going to be on the list to get called as a guardian ad litem. I'm going to have a reputation that I don't go for 50-50, that I don't ensure that fathers have time. And it's this idea of empathy, right?

[00:14:23] Like in general, you know, there is this idea that any time a father shows interest in his children, which is a wonderful thing and an amicable situation. But if I'm an abuser, I'm showing interest to harm, to weaponize. And there's no acknowledgement of that. I think that in general, you know, we believe as a society that every child needs two parents, that they need a two-parent home.

[00:14:49] And that if someone is expressing interest regardless of their pathology, then they deserve that. And we're not looking at the pathology. That's where I'm like always coming back to. How are we not looking at the pathology? Because frankly, that pathology, as you guys know, permeates all aspects of society. Like it's everywhere. It's in court systems.

[00:15:10] If I'm someone who can make money, if I can profit, you know, Dr. Romney, who is a dear friend and colleague, she wrote our foreword to our book. And she talks about the industrial divorce complex. There are multi-billions of dollars of money that are made in the process of people divorcing. And so if I can make money, then aren't I in some ways coercively controlling?

[00:15:36] Because I am abusing the system to get what I want out of it, right? And so and in that, who gets harmed? I mean, obviously, women, children, fathers, certainly. I mean, I have many clients who are, frankly, in gay relationships, but I also have fathers who are suffering this. The amount of harm that is inflicted onto men is not typically. It can be. But it's not typically the same extent because men are typically the money to parent.

[00:16:03] They have more money to invest in this process, but they also have more power in society. I mean, that's just the reality. And so, you know, knowing that there's money to be made off of this and that who is eventually the most harmed. I mean, the intergenerational trauma that can totally be prevented if we put children in safety versus putting them in harm's way.

[00:16:25] I can remember specifically after our last interview and you touched on the Amber Heard-Johnny Depp trial, and you said something to the effect of even the power dynamic of Johnny Depp being who he is and Amber Heard being who she is, even though she was a celebrity too. That whole dynamic is off, and there seems to be a large contingency of those types of relationships.

[00:16:49] The man is just in a position of power, and even just saying I'm interested in Amber Heard might have some implications in as well. We don't know. But aside from that, I remember making a comment in the podcast, even on a post, being like that was a pretty interesting illustration of how that could be just an abuse of power that all of us take for granted and don't even question. Right? And I got pushback on that, saying Amber Heard was an abuser too. She did blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:17:16] Well, you got the Amber Heard who was driven crazy by Johnny Depp, and Johnny Depp seemed to be cool and calm, and everyone loved him in the trial and all that stuff. But that's after he did the abusing, and then here we go again with the crazy woman narrative that seems to be fortified, and it seems to be fortified by women buying into it as well,

[00:17:39] because it's just such a whole culture of it that maybe their incentives are off too, or they're indoctrinated too to say, oh, there's another crazy woman or whatever. It seems to be an entire ecosystem of getting us back to kind of a central understanding of how it works, yet everyone seems to have the lack of understanding of how this abuse of power goes on.

[00:18:01] And of course, it's going to imbue our court systems as well, and then the incentives are going to be off within the court system, but it's an overall education that I think everyone needs to get with understanding. But I was really alarmed, like, here I am. Trying to understand it. A guy who grew up with four boys, you know, and certainly was in this culture where it was normalized, even participated in, trying to have an awareness about it and people not letting me have it. Absolutely. And I thought that was pretty like, wow, this is a serious problem.

[00:18:30] And frankly, had I not gone through what I had gone through, I don't think I would have had the eyeballs to see it. I would have been as dismissive as anyone else. So it's an understanding of how bad it can be. Yeah. I think Bell Hooks talks about that, right? Like, that patriarchy is this disallowing of men to question, like, their role in society. The moment that a man does that or speaks out about something or even just has a question about it. Like, there's a sadistic response by the patriarchy to shut you down, right?

[00:19:00] And then, of course, that, of course, happens to women. And then women. So, you know, to your point, the systems are not set up. They're set up by men. They were originally set up by men. I mean, you know, we could talk about the DSM-5. You know, the DSM set up by men, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, where we diagnose people set up by men. But people are indoctrinated into it and align with it and come to the rescue of perpetrators frequently, which is just startling.

[00:19:29] I mean, that's what happens. Instead of, you know, I get into these little things online and I'm like, meet me offline. I'm happy to have a discussion with you. Let's have a cup of coffee on a Zoom. Let's talk about your perspective and my perspective so that that way maybe I can learn. I mean, I'm sure we can both learn from each other. And instead, it's a visceral reaction. And that in and of itself is about exerting power and control over another person. Yeah. Social media is so terrible for that.

[00:19:56] It's just these little vicious quips where you don't actually get to evolve or expand your perspective, as you just said. Even when I hear, oh, it's the patriarchy, my back gets up a little bit. On a primordial level, my back gets up like, oh, it feels like, oh, here we're attacking men. That's right. And it's not an attack on men. It's just like, hey, explore. Attack on the system. Yeah. Yeah. It's not you. But the thing is, the thing that I feel like is like if you're a fish in water, you don't know that it's not an attack on you. It's an attempt to evolve it.

[00:20:26] That's right. And so you have to kind of like go, all right, there's a point here. They're not making this stuff up. Right. Right. It's like emotional. It's an emotional intelligence conversation, isn't it? And like we all are born with like these schemas in our life and in society. Men are born to believe certain things and they're groomed in a way and women are born in a certain way and then groomed in a way. Then add in all of the other systems at play. Like these schemas play out over and over again.

[00:20:53] To your point, I love that you just said your back does go. You know, you just you do get a little defensive because I think that that's what society expects of you. That's how society has trained in general men to behave. And I get nervous saying the word patriarchy. Like I almost get like a little like, all right, I'm going to say this. I'm warning you. You're not going to like it. I just had a class this morning and I was talking to my students about patriarchy. And it's like this isn't about men being bad. I think that's the implication.

[00:21:23] Yeah, right. It's about raising boys and girls in a way that there is equality. That there is no one, regardless of how you identify, that has power over another person. Just that's not not cool. Hey, Calti listeners. As you probably know, Nippy and I are working on a manuscript for our first book together. And as you probably also know, maintaining control is important to us.

[00:21:50] That's why we've decided to produce our book with the Self Publishing Agency or TSPA. Unlike traditional publishing, where you're often left waiting for months or even years to get your story out, the Self Publishing Agency lets you take control of your timeline. You'll have complete creative freedom with insights and guidance from pros in the publishing world. So if you're like us and you have a story or a message that's burning to be told, we highly recommend TSPA as your go-to partner.

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[00:23:23] You've heard from our sponsors. Now let's get back to a little bit Calti, shall we? What have you learned are some of the red flags that we can impart to our audience to look for in a relationship that might be based on coercive control? Sure, sure. So, I mean, you know, I always say that abusers don't show up with signs saying they're going to be an abuser, right? And I think that people are waiting for the physical evidence oftentimes. Like if he only hit me, right?

[00:23:52] Then I would know it was abuse. But the reality is, and you guys know this from, and so I did a cult training in Spain this summer and talked about children growing up in these cults because that's what it's like, right? You know, somebody loves you or cares for you or emboldens you in a way that helps your ego feel healthy and wonderful, right? And so that's love bombing, right? And it doesn't have to be very overt.

[00:24:19] Think about a parent with a child, you know, they might tell their child they love them, but it's not, you know, they're not constantly working to boost their ego. Maybe they're being helpful in that way, but it's not, it doesn't have to be overt. It can be very covert. And so love bombing is certainly one of the ways, gaslighting, right? I mean, I again, go back to children, like children growing up in these family systems are

[00:24:45] gaslit into believing that they have two parents who love them unconditionally. When actually the abuser doesn't love them unconditionally, the abuser is objectifying them and using them even for a period of time. I love when I like, like I hear from a mom, she's like, but he was such a good dad or she was such a good mom. Um, well, no, she was performing, you know, it's like, it's like the cult, right?

[00:25:13] They perform for us in a certain way so that they can have their needs taken care of, you know, manipulation and isolation is huge, right? And intimidation, you know, if you leave, this is what's going to happen. Or, you know, if you go to your mom's this weekend, well, you know, the victim mentality is Dr. Romney always talks about these abusers always take victim status, right? If you go to your mom's, I'll miss you so much, you know?

[00:25:40] So I'm like kind of talking about it in the context of children, because as you guys know, that's like my niche. Like I just, how do we begin to understand that if this is what we've experienced as adults, I was living in a cult. I was the scapegoat. What are the children experiencing and what is the psychological trauma to their brains? I mean, I say they have broken brain because like they literally don't even know what's happening to them.

[00:26:06] They know, they feel confused, but they don't know it's gaslighting. And maybe at some point the adult victim figures out that that's what's going on, but may stay for a period of time. But then is the adult victim also in some ways trying to keep equilibrium in the home and then also is in some ways gaslighting the child into believing the relationship is okay or the home is safe? I call intuition disintegration where it's like not gaslighting because that has malice intent.

[00:26:35] It's, it's, I'm going to, I'm going to make you believe that everything's okay, which means I'm going to disintegrate your intuition because in your body, you actually feel that things are wrong or unhelpful or, or inappropriate. And so, you know, obviously from there to maintain control, like that's how I obtain it. But then to maintain it, you know, it is this intensifying of gaslighting and manipulation and just creating a smaller and smaller world where victims lose their agency. Children lose their agency.

[00:27:05] I don't have a voice anymore in this relationship. I can't be who I am. I've lost my, I've lost liberty. I've lost my freedom to be who I truly am. And as you can imagine for a protective parent, not being able to parent the way that you had intended, not being able to love your children in the way that you had hoped to, that that's stolen from you when you're living with an abuser that is literally robbed from you.

[00:27:34] So, and then as you know, posts like, you know, how do they try to get it back when they've lost it? If you try to escape the relationship when the children leave, you know, that's the child who then is scapegoated, right? That's the child who is treated horribly. Or when the adult victim leaves, they are the, they are the abuser, right? That's the, that's a good one, right? They, yeah. Language is always the one that gets, and all these things, language gets hijacked. Right.

[00:28:02] And you talked about it in your book too, like how bad the term parental, and it's pseudoscience. It was made up by some kind of a whack job. That's a clinical term that we use around here. This is my term, whack job. Whack job. Tell us about whack jobs. I do think that there's a lot of people in the space, therapists and lawyers and stuff who are not up to speed because parental, like these terms keep, like there was a time when that may have been helpful and now it's no longer helpful, right?

[00:28:30] Like it's, you gotta be current. Sure, sure. Yeah. And I think, I think like, let's be clear, like alienation happens. Alienation is like a really great word. It fits really, really well. The problem is, is that is there a child who doesn't want to see a parent because of abuse that's occurred? Yeah. Or do they not want to see the parent because they're being told that other parent is abusing them?

[00:29:00] Like, like it's just so the way that this word can be used and harmful, right? So really, I mean, the way, the way I see it, again, I go back to my clinical, you know, work is that abusers will attempt to fracture the attachment with the protective parent. That is alienation. That is the term that we would use if we went to, you know, Webster's dictionary, right?

[00:29:24] But really understanding that, is it something bad that the protective parent is doing? Or is it something that they're doing trying to keep the child away from an abuser? They're not alienating. They're trying to protect. And so what we're not doing is unpacking why a child would behave that way. And I can tell you, these children talk about a cult. They come into therapy.

[00:29:48] They are blaspheming the protective parent because they have been so indoctrinated into a false belief or it feels safer to align with the aggressor. Yes. Right. Right. So how does an expert determine that? Like, are these experts in The Guardian, let's just call them gals, how do they get trained in these dynamics and to know what to look for? And are they incentivized to? They don't get trained. They don't. And that's the problem.

[00:30:17] I actually have a clinician training that's 14 hours long. It's for attorneys, coaches, and clinicians. And it's 14 CEs. And I talk about what are the best ways to help children in these circumstances. Because, you know, you can't deprogram someone. Deprogramming is like unless you can kidnap them and send them away, which is what, by the way, reunification camps are, which is not healthy. So we were in the car last night and Sarah and I have noticed a situation.

[00:30:46] There's a person in our community that Sarah and I have noticed has demonstrated some behaviors. And after listening to your book, I went to Sarah and I said, there's too many parallels between this person's behavior and what I'm seeing here. We saw behaviors socially that I thought were not okay. It felt like there was a dynamic of he controls the household. The wife seems super obedient.

[00:31:12] There seems to be restrictions on diets that are going on in the house. And I was totally convinced when I heard one of the scenarios in the book framed where one of the kids had like a skin disorder or something like that. And the father didn't seem to really be incentivized to diagnose it correctly. And then one of the children in this person's house has something like that. And the clinical explanation does not fit what the symptoms are. And there seems to be a narrative going around about the child that everyone's kind

[00:31:41] of socially accepting that. And my spidey senses are up just based on my knowledge, based on what I've seen and this person's temperament. He's charming, short temper. There's too many things that are lining up for me to like- I'm scared just talking about this. Number one, be silent about it. I'm not. I am. I could see him coming to the house with a baseball bat. And what would you... Well, I have one too. So what would you do? Shit. No, seriously.

[00:32:08] I mean, what does someone do who's peripheral to it, but has a knowledge base to see that like at least something's up. And listen, I hope I'm wrong. And I told Sarah, you know, last night when we're driving home, I was like, mark my words. You're going to hear something in the next two, three, four, five years in this household that didn't go right. What do we do? And what does someone do? And then what are the forces that they have to look out for in doing it?

[00:32:35] It says, if this gets legs or something like that, and how would you go about... Because most people go, that's not my problem. And then something happens and they go, oh, we saw this, we saw this. And like, I don't know, that's kind of where we are in this right now. And I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. Yeah, to your point, we need more people to be engaged in it, right? Versus saying an MP, right? Not my problem, right? We do. Yeah.

[00:33:03] I mean, I'll tell you a story about my dear friends who left me a note on my car one Sunday and it just said, stay strong. You are not crazy. You are doing the right thing. And your friends are here for you. Love you. And reach out if you need us. And that was it. That's all I got from them. Huge lifeline. Just to know that other people saw it, other people knew that something was wrong and they were acknowledging it.

[00:33:31] I mean, you know, some people may never talk to you again if you do that. That's kind of the risk we take when we try to reach out to people, right? I mean, but I think reaching out in an anonymous way, like because of your safety, I mean, to Sarah's point, you know, like you don't want to have an angry person at your door either. You have to take care of yourselves. But every victim and you guys like I know, you know this from being in the call, right?

[00:33:57] Every victim is just waiting for one person to help them gain clarity. One person to just turn the light on. Right. And even if you turn the light off for a little while, like the more that people are doing that for you, the more clarity you get. And that's, I think that would be the answer to Sarah's question about what we do when children like maybe or adults show up in therapy. I mean, you know, people go to therapy to get help. They might be anxious.

[00:34:25] This person you're talking about, their partner might be anxious, depressed, wondering what's wrong with them, why their partner doesn't agree with the medical diagnosis, whatever it is. And they go to therapy and the therapists, therapists are taught to validate people's experiences. That's the teaching. I can validate that you feel anxious and all of these other things. But here's my question. And this is like my life's dream is that every single time a client walks into a therapeutic

[00:34:54] office, we are first ruling out abuse. I don't care if the abuse happened in your childhood, happened in your dating relationships, in college, in your relationships that you're in now. I don't care. How are we not first ruling out abuse? Because then people show up in therapy and rather than a therapist like figuring out maybe I'm in an abusive relationship to this person's, the partner of this person's point, right?

[00:35:21] Like maybe I'm in an abusive relationship versus what ends up happening is, you know, maybe you just need to do more. Maybe if you weren't so frustrated by them not emptying the dishwasher or maybe need a second opinion on this diagnosis. You see what we end up doing with victims and survivors is we ask them to accommodate more when they already are F and accommodating everyone all of the time. And so a lifeline to your point, Nippy, is helpful.

[00:35:49] Having therapists who actually understand the underpinning of abuse, that's course of control that doesn't have to be overt, that a child might come into therapy and say, my mother, she's crazy. I can't stand her. I don't want to see her. Okay. Well, if a child is idealizing one parent over another, that's a red flag. So we need, I think, people to speak up.

[00:36:16] We need therapists to understand what indoctrination looks like, right? Like, I don't know if, you know, when you were in the call, if you went to therapy, was anybody asking you if anybody was coercing? Were you losing agency in your life? Did you feel like you didn't have a voice? Were you always being suppressed? Which you were, Sarah, very clearly in those, you know, like those are questions to be asking

[00:36:40] people, is there an abuser who's playing game with your life and you don't even know it? You don't even know it. Right. That's what I found so shocking about your book. Like, the domestic violence and the abusive content was not so shocking just because I've, you know, heard those stories before. But what was even more upsetting, not that that's not upsetting, but I was aware of that, but I was not aware that the family court system was not, I don't even know the term, not ethical, not knowledgeable.

[00:37:11] Incentives are up. The incentives, the patriarchy, all of those things. Like, every single story was like, you know, the woman saying, the final straw had happened, my shelf had broken, I was ready to leave, I knew it would be better if I left, I was encouraged to leave, I left, I fell for divorce, and then things got way worse, et cetera. Like, this is like the sort of the through line of all of these stories. And I was shocked. I had no idea. I didn't know anything about the family court system. Yeah. My Hill and colleagues talk at the, they call it the golden thread.

[00:37:40] Course of control is the golden thread that actually intensifies post-separation. And we know that from research, over 95% of cases, when the victim actually escapes, it actually gets worse. Which is just, to your point, like, a lot of people don't know this. They don't know. Well, they amp up. Yeah. They do. Their true character starts to come out. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're not in control anymore. And then they use the children. That's the worst. They tighten their grip on the children. We should be enraged.

[00:38:08] Nippy and I are always talking about, like, why aren't people more outraged about these things that go on? But why would you if you hadn't experienced it or read about it or it wasn't in your peripheral experience? Until it happens to you. Or something you know. Yeah. I mean, that's why we say this book is actually a book that every woman should read before she gets into a relationship. Like every young person. Because again, do we ever expect that we're going to be in an abusive relationship? Like, no.

[00:38:36] Nobody goes into a relationship thinking that the end of it, if I ever try to leave, escape, it's going to be horrifying. Nobody ever goes into it that way. So we all kind of need to have an understanding of what red flags are. And so many people in our audience are therapists. What's important for them to know? And what have you seen with therapy and how these cases are treated? Yeah. I mean, I think it's just, again, in a perfect world, therapists would be ruling out abuse when they meet with clients. It's like a first assessment.

[00:39:05] I mean, you know, when you go to the OBGYN now, they do a domestic violence assessment. And, you know, they're only looking for violence for the most part. But at least it's a start. Why aren't we going to therapy and actually having someone do Gottman's emotional abuse scale? You know, like doing a coercive control assessment. Like, we need to be talking about whether or not the relationship dynamics that people are engaged in are healthy or unhealthy.

[00:39:31] And then understanding that the children living in those family systems are experiencing the abuse in the same way as Dr. Evan Stark states in his book that came out last year before his passing. He says children are secondary victims, not because they're not harmed in the same way, but because they're used as the weapon to hurt the primary victim, the adult victim.

[00:39:54] And so really understanding that this is a family systems issue, that an adult victim is never at fault. And how do we help them gain agency and the ability to either stay in a toxic environment but navigate it? Because frankly, if you can see it, you can navigate it a lot better. If you're trauma-bonded and totally not seeing the abuse for what it is, then it's problematic, right?

[00:40:24] So if you can see it, maybe a therapist can help someone cope in that relationship in a way where they continue to give the children clarity about inappropriate behaviors instead of disintegrating their intuition. They continue to call out gaslighting. You know, they're able to navigate it in a way that children actually have more agency, right? And that they have more agency. Or if you're going to escape, this is what it might look like.

[00:40:52] And let me help you through that process. I mean, knowing, you know, this whole online world, you know, has got its positives and negatives. But what it does for victims and survivors is lets them know that they are not alone. That there's a whole world of people experiencing this. And there's something to be said about knowing that I'm not crazy, that my experience isn't like because I did something, you know, wrong. I'm not perfect.

[00:41:20] But that there's a whole world of people. And, you know, as I said, my Hill and colleagues call it the golden thread. I call it the dark thread. But when you read the stories in the book, you can see like the pattern. Like they do have a playbook. They have a playbook. And it is like a cult. And for children in particular. Oh, my gosh. Like just growing up with a parent that, you know, they're your caretaker. You're supposed to love them.

[00:41:50] But they're telling you bad things maybe about the other parent. And so then the betrayal trauma. Like I am now betrayed by this person who's the abuser because I've seen how they behave with my protective parent. And I know if I cross them. Oh, my gosh. I know exactly how I'm going to be treated. But also now that person is trying to create betrayal in me with the person that I should be able to lean on.

[00:42:16] And when it becomes a full on indoctrination, these are the children who show up in therapy hating their protective parent. The one parent who is safe. And they may not actually mean it, but they may. It depends on the level of indoctrination and how long it's occurred. And so how do we help them to gain clarity and have critical thinking skills? And what is their narration? Because they have a narration from the abuser. What is their story?

[00:42:45] How can we help them create their own story with their protective parent? For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page-turning memoir. It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life. It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores. Highly recommend, of course, because she's my wife. And now a brief message from our Little Bit Culty sponsors. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you support our podcast.

[00:43:19] Break time's over, people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty. It's a good one. So it seems like you've said it a couple times, like, you know, cult-like or culty. It seems like, and tell me if you agree with this, there's the cult of one in terms of the family cult that exists before the woman tries to leave in terms of, let's see, oftentimes they're isolated, right?

[00:43:43] The case you talked about where the abuser brought her to the compound in California and she literally was cut off from friends. And that seems to be consistent, being cut off from friends and family. Obviously love bombing, which you mentioned, creating a dependency. So often the woman's making babies and not earning money. What else are we seeing? If they could have a bigger cult, they probably would. The abuser? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:07] So they're just having this little family cult and keeping the woman dependent, isolated, and then also feeling low self-worth, right? Because of the gaslighting. And so that's all, that's all not cult-like. That is what cults do. It is. That's the same. Yeah. Right. And then take that child who maybe doesn't want to see that parent and then we send them off to a reunification camp. So what are these camps? This is the first time I... Yeah.

[00:44:36] Before, there is a distinction though, because you mentioned earlier, it's a lot of it's revenge motivated. When they leave, you mean? Yeah. With cult leaders, I look at revenge as a pretty low level emotion. With cult leaders, I think they transcend their revenge a little bit more and they have more of a diabolical because they don't feel as much, right? And a lot of them don't have empathy. So the revenge isn't something that they indulge as much. They're indulging more the power and the control of... Through revenge though, no?

[00:45:06] That's how I see it, Sarah. Yeah. I kind of see it. That's how I see it. So I think it's still diabolical. Like it's still... I feel like it's the same modus operandi. And the end result is that they actually have gotten revenge. I mean, I feel like wasn't there retaliation for trying to leave, you know, NXIVM, right? Yes. I think we're actually saying the same thing. The revenge is making sure that the mother who loves the children doesn't get to have them. I'm not saying that the cult leaders are devoid of revenge.

[00:45:35] I don't think it's the modus operandi as much as having the adoration. And I think there's revenge in how dare you leave me. Right. Well, it's also to retain my reputation, right? So like if I can make you look crazy, if I can make you look like the person who's alienated me from my children, if I could take custody from you, that is revenge. But it's about making me look like I'm an amazing dad or mom. Frankly, like I said, you know, like, you know, moms can do this to dads. They don't... We don't see it as frequently.

[00:46:05] And certainly there is less ability to exert the same power and control in a complicit family court system that's based on patriarchal norms. I mean, you know, that's a big sentence, but you get what I mean. No, I got it. It's all there. Yeah. I think we're actually saying the same thing. I think so. Yeah. It's like either you're doing the revenge to get the power or the power gives you... Like what comes first doesn't really matter. It's just they need to be in control.

[00:46:32] And revenges often take away the kids, even if the dad doesn't even love them or care about them and has never even shown interest in them. Right. And even if they have, they never truly loved the children. I mean, children, you know, develop, you know, most children need to... The ability for a child to be authentically themselves in their family system when they're developing is vital to attachment. And when children grow up in a family system where they can't authentically be themselves

[00:47:01] because they're regulating their behavior as a result of an abuser, right? And then they think the protective parent doesn't love them to the same extent or that they have to behave a certain way. They're not able to authentically be themselves. And in that, attachment is not fortified. And when attachment isn't fortified and when I can't be myself, I actually will be more likely to be in an abusive relationship and or more likely to take on the traits of the aggressor.

[00:47:30] So when people say, how do you prevent narcissism? How do you prevent people from being abusers? You allow a child to grow up in a family system where they are able to authentically be their entire selves and have secure attachment to their parents, to their caretakers. When we rob children of that, when we take away, when we make them be with an abuser, we're actually creating like a trajectory of either being in a harmful relationship or becoming

[00:47:59] harmful in relationships. Or being a perpetrator. Sadly, I mean, that's like, you know, it's not black and white. You know, there's people who grow up in these horrific circumstances, of course, are very healthy. But we are setting children up for a greater likelihood to that trajectory. And, you know, to me, like, oh my gosh, if we could prevent people from being in abusive relationships and, by the way, taking on traits of an abuser, like, come on, this is not hard. Why aren't we keeping children safe? Yeah.

[00:48:29] Is that what your protective parenting program is all about? It is. It's therapeutic interventions to help protective parents ensure that their children, regardless of who else is in their lives, are growing up in a position of safety. But also helping protective parents have the right responses to their children. Because you could imagine when children are coming home dysregulated, overwhelmed, maybe taking on the narration of the abuser. The first reaction is to be defensive.

[00:48:57] And that's not helpful in those situations. That actually emboldens what I say the abuser is trying to grow in the child. The abuser wants the child to feel unsafe with the protective parent. The abuser wants the child to feel dysregulated. And so if we can respond differently, it's a different kind of parenting. It's an entirely you're parenting a child who's been abused. You know, I mean, I'll talk just briefly about reunification camps.

[00:49:23] So I have a mom whose children were taken away six years ago because she was accused of alienation. She had never kept the children from the father. They just didn't want to go. But but she never kept them. They went and they were young. They were like nine and eleven. And they were forced into reunification camp. And she did not see them for six years. And they finally have gotten a car and the ability to drive.

[00:49:47] And the son drove and drove directly to her house one day and showed up and angry as hell. Like, you know, still thinking the mother was a bad mother, but wanting to see her, was able to get the freedom to see her. And, you know, so this indoctrination that had occurred, his inability to attach to the abuser, living in a reunification camp, being forced to be with the abusive parent, like how much harm that created, right?

[00:50:16] Reunification camps are like indoctrinating a child into a cult, making a child believe that a parent they fear, whether they fear it legitimately or not, making a child believe that the parent they fear is someone that they have to love, that they have to align with. How are there no checks and balances there? How is there nobody just making sure that they're not being put into a camp with an abuser? How is that even possible?

[00:50:41] The laws on the books do not ensure that child safety is primary in any divorce or separating situation. We have Caden's law now that is being passed. And certainly reunification camps are being, the wording is that they should not be used and that we have to have experts in place to determine if a child should be having repair, some kind of therapy with an abuser. But again, who are these experts? Right.

[00:51:11] Do they understand coercive control? Do they understand that children could say they fear a parent legitimately and or be indoctrinated to say they fear a parent? Right. Yeah. How would you know which it is? Again, for me, it's not, for me, I don't think it's challenging. I think that we all need to look at, it goes back to the Amber Heard-Johnny Depp discussion, right? What are the foundational aspects of the relationship?

[00:51:37] And when it comes to, exactly, if there's a power differential, who has more of the power? And is it possible that that person's exerting power and control over the family system? Let's take a look. Let's unpack the language, the experiences that are going on. And then add in, if they're parents with children, what's the foundation of the parental subsystem? What's the dynamic as parents in that parental subsystem that's going on?

[00:52:06] And if there's one person who has more power, that's a red flag. That's like, hello, something's going on here. There's not equality. There's not liberty. There's not an ability to be myself, to authentically be myself in that family system. So obviously, we want people to read your book, and we will do our best to use our platform to get it out there. If someone's just hearing this and considering leaving a relationship, what are some of the

[00:52:35] things that you'd want them to know? And what are the first steps in getting out if they're leaving an abusively controlling relationship? Yeah, I would not tell the abuser that you're leaving them. Yeah. So get everything in place first. Have a safety plan. Know full well that you're going to be involved in probably a longstanding battle that this person isn't going to let go easily. And ensure that you're safe.

[00:53:02] Again, safety planning and have a safe place to go. But also be realistic. Like, you know, radically accepting that this person is harmful is really helpful in helping you to predict what they're capable of. I think what happens with a lot of victims and survivors is they, we are not the types of humans that imagine that someone could do something so horrible. Right? And so predicting that, radically accepting that that is the case, and then being able to predict what their next move might be.

[00:53:31] What's the most important thing to them, knowing that you may not keep your home, knowing that you're going to lose financial resources, just accepting that, but knowing that you will have autonomy after. You know what? As you're saying that, it makes me think that The Perfect Duo is your book and It's Not You by Dr. Romani, right? Those two. She and I were just at a retreat last week with 250 victims and survivors. My book was there and her book was there. And so many women were coming up and saying that they had experienced this.

[00:53:59] And to your point, it's this radically accepting that these people are capable of doing these harmful things. And she often quotes me because to your friend's point, she says that he loves the kids. And what I always say is that if someone ever abused you, they are abusing their children. They don't love their children. And that's a tough pill to swallow. But that, as you guys know, is who abusers are. They're charlatans. They pretend. They perform.

[00:54:28] And Dr. Romani is now quoting me and saying that because that's the reality. Anybody who abuses you is not a loving parent. They are not. I do think what you guys just said to sum it up, if you're not an abuser and you're not willing to do those things, it's extremely difficult to project that kind of intent into an abuser if you're not that way. And so they have the element of surprise or just that they have that element of surprise

[00:54:56] that they've been hiding with a facade that they've been selling a persona the whole time that you just, you actually get to know their true nature. Or they could just read the book and then there'll be no surprises. But even so, like, I mean, you've been surprised when like you see people in a situation, you're like, God, I never thought they'd react that way. Absolutely. I call it the three Ps. If you know someone's an abuser, predict how they're going to behave. Predict. So that you can better prepare and practice your response, right? So that you can better protect.

[00:55:26] And if your children are coming home and you know they're going to that abuser's house and they're hearing all kinds of horrible shit about you, right? Predict what they're hearing. Come on. Like, predict it. You know that abuser better than anyone. Predict what he's saying about you. He says you're lazy. You drive a stupid car. Whatever it is. Predict it. And then prepare your response. So this is a tool I give to protective parents. Prepare how you're going to respond to that. If you could write all the things he's going to say about you on a board and then write

[00:55:53] your response and practice it so that when your child triggers you, you actually are regulated and you respond to them. You're not emboldening. The abuser is hopeful that kid comes home and triggers you. They are dying for that to happen. Because if you do that, you are actually fulfilling the prophecy that he has laid before. And I just used a Bible word, by the way. I love this. I learned every time we talked. I mean, there's so many action items at the end of your book, which I really appreciate.

[00:56:21] Not just to leave us mad, but to leave us with things to do. Yeah. Anything like if there's one thing. Send us home on a positive note. If there's one thing that somebody could do who's not in this situation but just wants to help, what could they do other than share your book? Yeah. So reach out to legislators that support child safety legislation. That would be key. Right? And also acknowledge that coercive control does not have to be physically violent. It can be.

[00:56:50] I mean, but if someone comes to you and they share with you that they're confused in a relationship or they're not sure that their partner, you know, they're wondering if they're being stalked or, you know, affirm for them. You know, like I think that that's really important because this abuse can be very insidious. And then victims, all victims have to do, you know, is get a little hopeful and they stay. Right? We have to help. We have to help people. That's a good point. Yeah. Have hope on the other side. Hope on the other side. Definitely. Yeah.

[00:57:19] That's the title of the episode. Oh, I'm going to cry. Love that. Love that. Love that I said that. Hope on the other side. There is hope on the other side. Freedom. There is hope on the other side, but there is. And I don't know why that made me cry. I think just because I tend to cry in these episodes. But also I think because obviously our cult stories are different contexts, but there is such parallels with, you know, the abuse that occurred in the cult.

[00:57:49] And then generally, I think because so many people in our situations, when they get out, the legal system does not work for them. We were lucky. And we were so lucky. Your situation is mind-blowing, honestly. It is mind-blowing that that was the accountability that he had. But why can I just ask for one? Yeah. Because the physical abuse was the symptom of the coercive control. And had there not been physical abuse, which I think our society is totally unacceptable

[00:58:18] of, and we have an apparatus to clamp down on that immediately. But the branding wasn't even part of the lawsuit. Like, the branding wasn't even part of the- But it's what- It's what- It got the law enforcement involved. It rang the alarm. It rang the alarm. I don't think you were going to go to the New York Times and say, this guy made me feel bad. No, no. You know what I mean? That wasn't going to happen. Why do you think it happened from your perspective? Why do you think we were so lucky? Oh, gosh. You know, I honestly, I try sometimes to figure it out.

[00:58:45] Why were you- I mean, I think you guys were really tenacious, all of you together. The knowledge of the branding, the knowledge of the branding. I do not know, though. I mean, for him to get that much time, I just was- I'm- like, I still am speechless about it. Because there's so many other experiences like that that don't happen in an infamous cult, and people are not held to that account, right? I mean, would you agree? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:59:15] We've heard of cases- Still. And some before and after were like, I still don't understand how- I think Moira Penza did a great job. Yes. And our judge- Well, that's it. Our judge was genuinely pissed off at what he saw. Stellar. That's exactly their- it's the judge. It's the judge. He was genuinely like, what is going on here? These people are competent. And then he was just like, this is disgusting. I think he had a moral outrage for himself. That was my sense.

[00:59:44] Which brings me back, like, full circle to framed, right? Because, I mean, how is it that there isn't a moral outrage? And this is the other thing. Like, we have an Ohio representative, like, a small, like, local representative whose daughter is experiencing this, and now he's angry. Like, we- like, it's- there's a lot of people who have experienced this, but we need people in positions of power, like a judge who's really angry and decides to make this an example. And that's what he did. He used this as an example. And now he's a hero.

[01:00:12] Has there been any celebrities that have gone through this? Yes. Any celebrities? Yes. Angelina Jolie, Sharon Stone. I mean, Sharon Stone lost custody after her- after the movie that she did, Basic Instinct. She lost custody after that? Because of the display that she had in the movie when she- yeah. Yeah. She lost custody. I mean, there's just so many. No. Yeah. Yeah. I did not follow that.

[01:00:40] I think Kelly Clarkson has gone through a lot of stuff in this similar vein. Reese Witherspoon. There's a lot. Yeah. We would love for someone to take this and hijack the book and just, like, make it- Mel B. Obviously not with children, but Mel B. God, how can we get this book to them if they're not aware of it already? We're sending it to them. Have you sent it to them? Yeah. Tag them on a post, too. We're sending it to them, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:01:07] Well, we'll make this a clip and tag them all in the post and say, let's get involved. What's the hashtag to use? Framed book. What's the Me Too equivalent? Framed the book? Hashtag framed book. Framed book. There's so- I could talk for hours. I'm sure you could, too. Next time in Georgia, we'll have coffee. Well, we will have to have you back. Okay. Let's keep in touch. All right. Thank you so much. So good to see you. Thank you so much for letting us know about this.

[01:01:36] Do you like what you hear on A Little Bit Culty? Then please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're a little bit susceptible. Just share the love. Thanks. Another case of where we could have talked to Dr. C for hours. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. We really appreciate your expertise and your experience.

[01:02:06] Hopefully, this conversation empowers any listeners who might be living with their own coercive controller. It's always good to be reminded of the relationship red flags. For more information and resources, you can find Dr. C's website in the show notes. You can also pick up a copy of her book, Framed, Women in the Family Court Underworld. And please do read this. Share it and review it. It's a very important book and needs to get out there. Stay safe, everybody, and see you next time. Bye for now. Sinking down to the depths of the ocean.

[01:02:49] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames. In collaboration with Amphibian Media. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios. And our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan. The