Gentle Souls: Esther Friedman on ‘School’

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[00:00:25] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:26] And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy, aims. All right, called to listeners. If you've been paying attention and I know you have, you'll recognize that we've already covered school before in our episode with Spencer Schneider, who detailed his journey back from the brink in his extremely readable memoir, Manhattan Cold Story, my unbelievable true story of sex, crimes, chaos and survival.

[00:01:40] Hi, Spencer.

[00:01:41] If you're listening virtual fist bump and listeners, be sure to check out that episode.

[00:01:45] If you haven't already, we'll little, live, love, love. And in paths, this episode is especially for you. So let's get into it, gentle souls and a little bit culty listeners.

[00:03:02] Here's our chat as Spencer Schneider. What I didn't know, and it's rare for me these days to read a cult memoir and find something totally new. Usually it's like, oh,

[00:04:23] that's the same. That's the same. That's almost seems like something out of, you know, a movie that doesn't exist in real life. But I think there's a shock in realizing, yeah, actually this person will squeeze everything out of me that they can. But I think for people who fit this profile of gentle soul that it's so far out of their conception

[00:05:42] of how people relate that it makes them quite vulnerable.

[00:05:45] Well, I think it's definitely important to bring up here and we're all gonna get along and everyone's gonna have everything that they need. And unfortunately, just not realistic, but there's nothing wrong with hoping for that. I know my growing up years were filled with people telling me I was too sensitive and I thought too much and I assume that that is true for many people who are really empathic.

[00:07:02] And the thing is, you can't because you have that empathetic aspect to you. And that's what they're manipulating. Yeah. It's an opportunity for someone who's got those sociopathic proclivities. It's like, I know how this person ticks. I know how to present myself to this person. And I know this

[00:08:20] person is going to extend the benefit of the doubt to me.

[00:08:23] I was going to ask this later, but since you where it's like you get enough evidence to go, okay, I've been having doubts all along and something niggly has been poking at me. And now I'm realizing that my doubts were right. Right, I wanna circle back to that. First, our audience knows we've already dug into this particular school, or called the school,

[00:09:41] or the Odyssey Study Group, or lots of different names,

[00:09:43] but let's just go back to the least the key moments

[00:09:46] following our podcast formula. So I had the therapy background before this happened, which includes a lot of talk about power differentials. So I say that because you can have the education and still stumble into these things. And I think it's important to recognize that. But I was very confused by my career choice because of many things, a lot having

[00:11:02] to do with being a general soul.

[00:11:04] I mean, a lot of what was implemented in work leaving that and I just can't figure it out. Then, you know, I'm heading into a breakup. So that's the lead up. And I am at Whole Foods, Feeling Sorry for Myself and picking up breakups next by the way because I was about to have a summit with my soon-to-be ex-boyfriend. And I'm standing in line,

[00:12:20] Feeling Sorry for Myself and this woman with her two kids

[00:12:24] and her husband standing behind me she was gathering the data. What would later become the secret files? Right? Yeah. Yeah. The one way data gathering. It was because she wasn't telling right? And it felt weird. So it was the seed of the cognitive dissonance that I will say, you know, I was aware of my cognitive dissonance from start to finish. And my emotional need really overrode that. So it was like a month long grooming of friendship. And then it really makes me laugh that at some point, because I was just pouring out my solar about all

[00:15:03] my problems and how I didn't understand the world., which is described more in the book. Then at the end of that conversation, Robert invited me to a quote-unquote free five-week experiment. So again, another red flag, but I was like,

[00:16:21] okay, why not? It can't hurt. It's free. I, a philosophy group, and it was based around what were pitched as ancient ideas that had been passed along through an oral teaching. And it was pitched as tools, you know, these ideas are tools so that your life is better. And the whole pitch about evolving,

[00:17:42] right? I mean, every cult kind of pitches this understated superiority, right? similar, we had to stand up and state our aims. My aim is to fill in the blank, do this thing for a certain number of times, it always had to be measurable, right? Us too. Yeah, if you're not measurable, you can't state it, because then how do you know you've achieved it? Right, right.

[00:19:00] Exactly.

[00:19:01] You have to be able to count it by the end of the five weeks. know, the initial months again, less slow boil, at least for me, was the love bombing was kind of extended. I almost feel like the love bombing extended through the first year for me. So I'm feeling shitty about myself and I'm surrounded by people who are supportive, who are cheering me on, who are kind, who are telling me how smart I am and how creative and how talented I am. And

[00:21:22] parts of me really made sense. They actually think that's true.

[00:21:23] I...

[00:21:24] Yeah, that's very good.

[00:21:25] Tengeling.

[00:21:26] Yeah, I still kind of believe something like that.

[00:21:29] I just did a meditation thing about the different monkey minds.

[00:21:33] I'm like, oh, there's my looking for the gold star monkey,

[00:21:35] and there's my planning control, the universe monkey.

[00:21:38] Like, that's not really me, right?

[00:21:40] That's just a strategy.

[00:21:42] Yeah.

[00:21:42] So that's the kind of thing I think where Nexium and school

[00:21:46] gave you some tools to give you a lot of awareness and insight, and they know you better than you know yourself. Oh, that's a sure reply. That's brutal. Yeah. And look, I came into the school feeling like there was something wrong with me because as a channel soul, I'd been told my entire life that I was too sensitive and I think too much and why can't I change that and why can't I be more tough?

[00:23:00] Was that the same thing as the Essence Flaw?

[00:23:02] I would say so.

[00:23:03] Yeah.

[00:23:04] I hadn't thought about it that way, Sarah.

[00:23:06] Can you explain to the audience This is actually the origin story that Robert told me when I met with him for the first time. You got to have a preamble in a pitch, right? Yes. Exactly. His preamble was that. We begin as essence in the story world. We really don't belong here, which was the thing that I know Lisa prepped him with because that was my ongoing kind of feeling.

[00:24:23] Like, I don't feel like I belong here. I don having with me. Therapy has been a great place to work through all that tricky stuff, and can help you in your relationships too, whether it's with

[00:25:41] your friends, your coworkers, your significant other them on hand when I do the snack, so that I am snacking on something clean with wholesome ingredients. And with chomps, I'm not just snacking.

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[00:27:06] and no unhealthy additives or sugar, snacking. You've heard from our sponsors. Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we? You've just mentioned a bunch of red flags, which leads us to the section of what we're somebody other red flags. We've just we've summed up this like, flop. The shelf is growing. The shelf is growing. We've got the secret files. There's a line in your book, which I really resonated with as well, which is because it's not that you didn't question it had been shut down.

[00:28:23] And what you'd said was, mostly I hierarchy exists and they know more. Yeah, absolutely. Well, they would have to, because it's how extreme belief systems get a foothold, religion and then there's always something that has omniscience that you don't and you're trying to obtain. Right, yeah.

[00:29:40] That's always vague.

[00:29:41] It's never explicit, right?

[00:29:43] It never is.

[00:29:43] And I think, you know, it's funny

[00:29:46] because I'll joke around and call my experience in all these terms. So any doubt that you start to have is evidence of your guilt to them. And they're pointing that out to you as you go along until you go, wait a minute, no, no, this is me. And what you're doing, and it takes a little bit for you to, if you put the trust in them, it takes a little bit for you to go, I have a shelf here, right?

[00:31:00] Yeah.

[00:31:01] Then that's the moment, at least, you know,

[00:31:02] in the conversations and experience I had,

[00:31:04] is you start to go, oh my God.

[00:31:07] Yes.

[00:31:07] You're the villain. For people who want to know your full journey and i think you articulate it so well and also at the book is so educational because you're relating it to all the things we talk about this podcast very specific dynamics. This is an example of isolation well even just the lack of reciprocity on obtaining information you know that that's weird but you're also feeling good because someone's interested in you love bombing there's a lot of things going on.

[00:33:26] this group at all. And for whatever reason, this is really early on, I told him, you know, I go to this thing every Tuesday and Thursday. And he said, like, you know, a good partner would,

[00:33:34] if this thing is helping you, it's none of my business, right? So throughout our dating,

[00:33:41] our engagement, our marriage, which happened in 2009 two and a half years in, that all started to unravel. And of course, at that point, you know, I thought, well, that's because I'm not trying hard enough, you can never try hard enough in a cult, right? So two and a half years in, on to the end, he was watching me decline, you know, I'm losing weight, I can't sleep, I can't think straight. Like,

[00:35:03] when you were talking before an IP, I would dug my heels and more. But I was at a crisis, a mental health crisis. If I had gone to an ER, trust me, they would have been like, we're going to check yet. So it was a Thursday. And then he said, I went to your checkbook and I looked at your ledger. And then he said, are you sure you're not being manipulated? And at that point, because I'm falling apart, I was like, I don't know. And if you have to say, I don't know, then you're probably

[00:37:40] being manipulated, right? It's strength to him. This is his business. So Insomnia, Insomnia, Insomnia, right? And then I think it was Monday morning actually at like, I don't know, it was maybe like 4.30. will regret leaving the source. And I'm like, yeah, but that's the source. I'm watching the source rise. And I'm looking at people walking their dogs, you know, I was done. Like, the veil had been ripped back. The curtain had been ripped away because I saw him as a con man, finally, in that moment. So, you know, that's enough, I think, to say

[00:41:41] about how my exit unfolded. so that I am snacking on something clean with wholesome ingredients. And with chomps, I'm not just snacking. I'm refueling. Their tasty meat sticks have over 9 grams of protein and no unhealthy additives or sugar, plus they are low-carb and keto-friendly, allergy-friendly, and don't contain any fillers, which is very rare for a meat stick. People read the ingredients of other competitors.

[00:43:01] Chomps only sources from farmers who raise animals humanely and farm responsibly, overpriced wireless providers. So when I first heard that Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at $15 a month, I thought, sure, okay buddy, what's the catch? But after talking to them it all made sense. There actually isn't one. Mint Mobile's secret sauce is that they sell wireless service online. They cut out the cost of retail stores and pass those sweet savings

[00:44:21] directly to you. And the quality is way better too. bit called the, shall we? So at this point, like, I imagine there's got to be a process of reclaiming yourself and your identity. I know this isn't the case for so many former members, but there's just so much that, again, you know, still lines up with my magical thinking. So it's still there.

[00:45:40] I think that's part of the general soul.

[00:45:42] But Chris and I drove from Massachusetts to protect myself, no one else will. And it starts with accepting that this is how I am.

[00:47:02] It's not going to change.

[00:47:03] And not only is it not going to change, it and other memoirs, but I'm sure you know as we all know here on this podcast

[00:48:21] that the world is still culting. The cult ofasana Nangrata. Yeah. You're a successful. Yeah. You actually did the work and you get shunned for doing the work. You know, Chris and I always joke that I graduated and then... Yeah....I graduated from school.

[00:49:42] Yeah, you did graduate. Actually, that reminds display, right? There's not going to be this, like, you'll have a private conversation. It's not going to be a group take-down or beating frenzy, as I like to call it. So those are a few things that jumped to mind for me immediately. But I think there's an end date is really important because, you know, a cult's not going to tell

[00:51:01] you we expect you to stay forever. We expect you to devote your life to this group.

[00:52:04] shame for asking questions and things like that. One of the things I also see as a flaw with both in terms of how they lost people is it really does seem difficult to maintain this type of

[00:52:10] secrecy or privacy and then also be in the quote, real world. That seems like it's both of their

[00:52:17] downfalls ultimately. If you have people on the outside going, what's going on there and what are

[00:52:22] you doing? As long as you maintain a foot in reality, there's only want to mistrust people, right? Like you don't want to look at every person as though they're going to take advantage of you. That's a real miserable life. But less as more, you got to let people prove themselves to you. So if I'm meeting someone, I'm not going to pour my heart out right away like I did with Lisa. Yeah. Well, been there.

[00:53:40] Yeah.

[00:53:41] You know, or if oversharing, you know, or if I'm having conflict with someone that I don't

[00:53:46] know that well, I'm going because blah, blah, blah. And really, all you need to say is, you know what I'd love to, but it's just not going to work. Yeah, you know, practicing. Yeah, practicing. It's a muscle. It's a muscle. You have to practice, you know. Yeah. And I think I've gotten pretty good at it, but I do fall. Look, it's my natural wiring. I fall

[00:55:00] back into it at times, you know, and, and than that. What he did is he never would say, how dare you or you are bad. It would be more like, what does it mean if, so that the person would have to say it themselves, oh my God, I'm selfish. But it was specifically, the question was, if you're a humanitarian and you want to help hungry people and you're a lawyer and you can make $200 an hour, what's the way to help

[00:56:25] most people?

[00:56:26] Okay, talk was more subtle. That was my only correction. It wasn't quite as blank. No, he wouldn't say, how dare you? That sounds like a Sharon Gann's quote, how dare you?

[00:57:41] Did she British?

[00:57:41] I pictured her in British.

[00:57:43] Oh my God, my theater nerd in me would have loved that group.

[00:57:46] I love the Shakespeare, that's mostly it. I mean, I'm still trying to be artistic and do music. And you know, that's just kind of the cherry on the top of the cake here. You know, that I do as much music as I can in between all of this obsessive cult. Whatever, fill in the blank, right?

[00:59:03] Advocacy.

[00:59:04] Yeah, it is.

[00:59:05] Yes.

[00:59:06] There's always, there's always more to do. You can also get more info on Esther in our show notes. If you're a Patreon member, let us know all your thoughts about this episode over on Patreon or leave us a voicemail at a little bit called t.com slash voicemail because we love hearing from you. And we love ratings and reviews because when we get ratings and reviews, the algorithm also loves us, I guess. So leave us a review, won't you?

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