Hey, Hun: Emily Lynn Paulson on MLMs and Other Lies

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to snow basin. Now on the icon pass. The views and opinions expressed by a little bit cultier, those are the hosts.

[00:00:31] And don't reflect the official policy or position of the podcast, right Sarah? Correct. Any of the quote fire content, I prefer lava content, provided by our guest blogger, sponsors, or authors of the opinion

[00:00:43] and are not intended to malign a religion, a group, a club, an organization, business individual, anyone or anything, unless Sarah? You're a douchebag. Yeah, I mean pretty much. Also, we're not doctors, psychologists or wizards.

[00:00:56] We're just two non-experts trying to make you a friendly and formative podcast based on our experience that we've turned into wisdom. Okay? Good talk. Okay. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here. And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to

[00:01:20] A Little Bit Cultie, aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side. We've been there and back again.

[00:01:29] A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult, and then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge. And the whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow, now in its second season.

[00:01:41] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:48] Look at us, couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe. We gotta schedule that, that's separate.

[00:02:01] So it's two days? We gotta hang out? We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium. Still on that journey, and we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:13] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level market.

[00:02:24] This stuff really is everywhere. The Cultiverse just keeps on expanding, and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com

[00:02:44] Hello everybody, welcome back to this week's episode of A Little Bit Cultie. It's a podcast about cults. And other things that are culty. We just had such a fun interview and Nippy's like, I felt a little bit bad because he was a little left out.

[00:03:11] Oh, it was girlboss time. It was hashtag girlboss hashtag boss babe. I kind of feel like by the end of it, we came up with a new definition of what it means to be a girlboss. Which was?

[00:03:21] Well, people are going to listen to the episode to find that out Sarah. That's so true. Stick around and find out. But don't buy now. Cash me outside, how about that? Oh my God, really? Dr. Phil is like...

[00:03:29] If you don't know what that is, just Google cash me outside, how about that? Today's guest. Today's guest. Tell us about today's guest, Nippy. Is Emily Paulson. Emily Lynn Paulson. Emily Lynn. She's a badass boss babe. I know I'm saying this tongue in cheek.

[00:03:42] But you could have been her and she could have been you in their organization's respective organizations. We are each other's doppelgangers in another parallel MLM cult universe.

[00:03:51] I was so excited when we connected initially over the social meds and still the met in person, but I feel like we're friends. You'll see in the video if we posted on Instagram that we also have very similar matching haircuts,

[00:04:02] which means that we would have been very easy. She means very little. But no, it means we would have recruited each other easily for sure. That was the boss babe cut, like the Rachel in the 90s. Yes. 100%.

[00:04:12] She's walking in and saying, can I get the boss babe cut? It's a look. It's a vibe. It is a look. As most of you know, we've done some episodes on multi-level marketing. Sarah, why don't you take it from here?

[00:04:24] Yeah. So for those who don't know what it is, it's a term used to describe businesses that involve selling products to family and friends and recruiting others to do the same. Emily will give another example. We'll dig deeper.

[00:04:34] We're going to unpack it and circle back and unpack it some more. Okay. That's enough. Too much packing. This is good to know for today's episode during which we'll be talking to Emily Limpulse and the author of Highlight Reel, Finding Honesty in Recovering Beyond the Filtered Life

[00:04:48] and her forthcoming book, Hey Hun, Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and Other Lies Behind Multi-Level Marketing out in May of 2023. Emily is here to tell us about the very thin line between MLMs and cults. Well actually, Emily says that they're one and the same.

[00:05:04] It's actually a $180 billion industry of legal and illegal pyramid schemes that governments both support and protect. Even the UN takes money from MLMs. When she's not writing books, Emily is busy giving TED talks or spending time with her five kids and husband in Central Oregon.

[00:05:20] I think mothers of five kids are the actual boss babes. Y'all, I hope you have as much fun as we did. So without further ado... Emily Lynn Paulson. Welcome to Emily Lynn Paulson, the bossiest of the boss babes.

[00:05:45] That's what your title is going to be. What do you think of that? Oh, I love it. Yeah. I'm so glad to be here. The final boss. Are you glad to be here? We're so glad to have you. Yes. I was trying to think...

[00:05:56] I was telling Nippy about how we met, like I know not really in person, but when did we actually connect was the real question? I started listening to your podcast and got your book and obviously I saw the vow. So it just kind of all worlds collided

[00:06:09] when I realized that Nixium was an MLM. I initially saw your New York Times article, right? So I knew all that, but everything was like, sex cults, sex cults. And I didn't understand that it was an MLM until I started watching the vow.

[00:06:25] And then of course I just fell into the rabbit hole of your podcast. But wait Nippy, we have to address Nixium wasn't an MLM because MLMs are unethical. Right. Oh yeah. Totally. Well, and they're not pyramid schemes because pyramid schemes are illegal. Because pyramid schemes are legal. Yes.

[00:06:38] Yeah. This was one of the first things... I don't know if you know this but I didn't get into it in my book but that I was in an MLM before Nixium. No, I did not know that. Yes. Yes, I was.

[00:06:47] And I don't talk about it too much because I still have family members in it. But it did make me like ripe for success because I already had a lot of the sales skills. Well, and then did you think, oh, it was just the wrong MLM?

[00:07:00] Like this one will be the right one. Well, not only that, we were told that it wasn't an MLM. Of course. Which is the biggest red flag of all. Like if someone says this isn't an MLM and it clearly is, like that's the biggest red flag. Yes.

[00:07:15] But this was a different era of MLMs. Like my mom signed me up when I was in university in 97 and I didn't really start like working on it to like 2001 or two. But I only did it for a couple of years. This is before your era

[00:07:26] where it was like all about hashtags and social media and the wine and the whole gestalt of that. When it was just like you invited someone over to your house or they hosted a little party for you. I mean, it could only infiltrate so far.

[00:07:41] Social media really made it blow up. Yeah. You had a different experience in that way but there's so many overlaps in broad strokes that I feel bad in advance for Nipi because he's just like... Yeah, I'm gonna be the robot just kind of chime in here and there.

[00:07:56] But I do have some questions. Well, I just want to know had you guys met while we were in our perspective MLMs who would have enrolled? Oh, I think Sarah... You're a formidable foe in this one. Yeah, I think Sarah would have enrolled me because I was very...

[00:08:14] I think you're attracted to what you're attracted to and I think Sarah's personality in general I'm like attracted to that, right? Like in general as a human being and I think attached to the possibility of community, possibility of growth, possibility of friendship.

[00:08:34] I mean, that's what I was looking for when I joined so I... No question would have been the one to join. I would have been in Sarah's downline. Oh yeah. So it would have been Sarah and MLM. Yes, and I would have scooped her up.

[00:08:46] She's exactly the bright light we were taught to look for. I know, I know. Bright light and also big network and her why was strong. My why was very strong. Yeah. God, all these things it's like I'm trying not to like throw up in my mouth

[00:09:02] when I say them back, but it's so true. It's all of that was just... It's all the same stuff. It's all the same stuff. Yeah, but you got to talk about it to get rid of the gag reflex. Yeah. I think.

[00:09:13] Because it becomes less cringy when you humanize it. And that's totally why I loved your book so much because you really just took it all. You take it all on the chin. Like so many people would duck and run. Oh shit.

[00:09:27] But maybe that's also why we're meant to be friends because we're just going to like bear all. Well, that's how you turn your story into wisdom. You have to eat the crow. And then I think once you tell the story where you're emotionally honest

[00:09:40] and you take responsibility for what you did it then allows you a certain credibility in the space where people go, oh this is a person who's turning what they recognize they participate in to wisdom for other people to not do the same thing. Yeah.

[00:09:54] I mean, I think throwing myself fully under the bus is like the way that I can tell the story without it being like, oh you're telling me what not to do or you're condemning me for my behavior. I mean, this is fully my story.

[00:10:10] And it's funny when, you know, the criticism which I don't read reviews or anything like that because just you just don't go there. You don't read the comments under the byline articles. You know, but the criticism that comes through is like, oh, but you were part of it.

[00:10:23] You know, you were part of it. You are scamming all these people which I know you've heard this before too. It's like, and now you're profiting off of it or whatever. It's like, I could have just quit and never said a thing but nothing changes that way.

[00:10:35] Like it doesn't change the fact that I succeeded, you know, air quotes or made money. It doesn't change the fact that I'm allowed to talk about it now. Right. And that's the only way anybody can be informed going forward. And you're actually one of the more qualified people

[00:10:50] to talk about it. Normally those people look at like you profited one way that was in your own admission egregious and quote unethical. And sometimes those people don't feel like you get to go thrive again. Only this time, you're taking the same skill sets

[00:11:06] that allowed you to thrive in one domain and putting it in another and you're turning it into a positive. So you don't ask for permission for those things. You just got to go do it. No, I have written a book before and it was very much, you know,

[00:11:18] this is all the shitty stuff I did when I was in addiction, right? I had the experience of being able to put that story out there and knowing that not only was it cathartic and helpful for me, but it did help other people.

[00:11:31] So I already knew going into this that I wanted to do the same thing on the same scale that I feel like I manipulated and harmed people unknowingly. I wanted to be just as loud the other way. Right? I feel like I've said the exact same quote,

[00:11:46] just as loud. Yeah. Yeah. This is my doppelganger. Well, listen, we're obviously big fans of the book and we'll be talking a lot about that throughout the podcast. But for those who are new to the scene here or maybe have been living under a rock

[00:12:02] and don't know what an MLM is, I mean, I actually still find that some people, they don't know the term MLM. Like they have friends who do it, but they don't know that's what it is. You want to give us a little cliff notes

[00:12:14] for the 12 people on the listening who are listening who don't know what it is? Yeah. Everybody knows what an MLM is, whether they know or not. Right? So it's basically an unsalaryed workforce who has to pay into a company to promote products that they don't get paid for

[00:12:34] unless someone actually buys them. So it's, you know, what you see on social media is be your own boss. You know, I've got my own business, my own small business and that's the exact opposite of what it is. It's a huge corporation

[00:12:47] and they make their money by collecting people. They have, you know, people buy in, buy a business kit and then the money isn't made selling products. The money is made by then getting more people to buy the business kit and buy into the business

[00:13:00] and you don't own your own business. You are just an unpaid contract worker. And so the way multi-level marketing makes so much money is that once you buy the business kit, they have your money. You never have to do anything and that's how these corporations thrive.

[00:13:16] They literally thrive because so many people fail and they have a, you know, 99.7 failure rate across the board, meaning people who purchase like lose money immediately. You're already in the negative and most people never actually turn a profit. Don't you wish you'd known all that

[00:13:33] when Becky invited you to have a drink? You know, I had, and I describe this in the book too, is I had an initial like, you know, I think we all have that little, oh God, it's one of those things.

[00:13:45] It's one of those things you see on social media. And in that time it was really booming, like, you know, 2013, 2014. It's like you saw MLMs a lot. And it was again, it's like you wouldn't know it was an MLM. It's just like, oh so-and-so has a skincare business.

[00:14:00] So-and-so has a supplement business. So-and-so is selling leggings. It's all this crap all the time, right? And you might not know what it meant at the time, but for me, I was like, ooh, do I want to be that person?

[00:14:11] But what got me was I did see that she'd gone on some fun trips. She was seemingly earning money. She was seemingly doing really well and having a lot of fun. And when I met with her, there were a bunch of people there.

[00:14:25] And it was like, oh, you know, so whether someone had said to me, oh 99.7% of people fail, I would have been like, but look, right? Like it was that cognitive dissonance of, but I see that she, someone I know, who I trust is doing well.

[00:14:41] And like, why would she lead me astray? So I don't know if knowing that, because I could have looked it up anywhere. Again, most of these statistics that I talk about in the book, they're all readily available. It's all out there and what keeps people stuck

[00:14:54] and continuing to enroll is that hope that maybe they can be the, you know, 0.3%. So highly recommend the book and all the juicy details. Will you give us a little cliff notes of what hooked you in terms of, and I always find this so interesting,

[00:15:11] and I think it's really, really important to you emotionally that that was a draw and appealing in terms of being a mom and all that comes with it. Yeah. I think that's the reason so many moms get roped in

[00:15:23] is because I was looking for something at that time. I didn't know what I was looking for, but I was at this point in my life where, you know, we just had our last baby. We've got five kids and we were done having kids.

[00:15:36] And I knew that going back to the workforce my husband had a demanding job. Child care for five kids would have been just stupid. And I didn't know if I had any other options, but I was in that place like,

[00:15:48] I think a lot of women are in where you just feel like you've lost your sense of self a little bit. So I didn't know there were any options out there for me. So when this was presented to me,

[00:15:57] I was like, wow, not only can I escape like tonight, you know, tonight I can get out and actually put makeup on and close on and leave my kids behind and go out and meet her for drinks.

[00:16:08] But gosh, this is like the hope that I can do this all the time. It was just that need for something outside of myself, outside of my mom life that I was really craving and it was bundled in with this possibility of also earning money and trips.

[00:16:24] And so it was just the hope of something outside of my life at the time where maybe I felt very overwhelmed. I felt underappreciated. Like I think a lot of young moms do. It just, I had a lot of hope that it could be the magic solution.

[00:16:41] I was just noticing it's one of the consistencies that we saw and the leggings, Roberta Blevins one. It seemed like there's fertile ground for moms in this. Oh, absolutely. And it capitalizes on and mom's capacity to network

[00:16:56] like there's a joke I have with like a lot of my male friends and be like, all right, I'll talk to Sarah. You talk to your wife and we'll figure out when we're going to meet next. And it's not a joke because they, they're the social coordinators.

[00:17:05] They do everything way more efficiently. And then, you know, reservations at that night. And it's like, so it seems like there's an infrastructure and like already kind of natural there that's capitalized on. Oh yeah. I mean, the mental load is huge.

[00:17:23] And the ultimate issue here is that there aren't system set up for women, right? There aren't women's unpaid labor carries our entire economy. Like I could go on about the patriarchy and all that shit. But it's because there's a lack of resources. There's a lack of choices.

[00:17:40] And so when you're given something that even if it's a really shitty choice, but it's there, it's going to look enticing. It's going to look like something. And I think MLMs do a really good job of not only filling those pain

[00:17:54] points of being the mom who's at home or being the woman who's struggling with her career and balancing home life and all that stuff. You feel like you're doing something wrong no matter what. You stay home if you work either way,

[00:18:05] someone's going to say you're doing the wrong thing, right? But it also packages all the pain points you have just as a female. Like, hey, do you need to lose baby weight? You know, have you put on some pounds? Have you whatever has your aging has your skin?

[00:18:18] Like you got some wrinkles, got some crow's feet. I didn't fix that too. So it's it packages all of these pain points into one, which is what makes it so predatory. And then it's your friend inviting you, right?

[00:18:29] Or your kid's teacher or it's these people in proximity to you that you feel like you can trust. And they're in a group and they wear cute little booties and cute little jeans and little hats. Like I've seen pictures and I'm like,

[00:18:43] if I was super lonely and wanting friends, I would totally want to be part of that. Now I'm like, ooh. Yeah. I mean, it does. Super cringy. It's like when you're changing diapers at 2 a.m. or whatever, like, and you see a picture pop up on Facebook

[00:18:56] of people on a cruise ship or whatever, it's going to draw you in no matter what they're selling. Damn Facebook. I mean, more Instagram now, but that's a real pain point for a lot of people. It's just the inherent FOMO of like, look what everyone else is doing.

[00:19:09] And also like it's not real. It's not real. Sometimes, you know, sometimes there's some truth and like, okay, then maybe they're in, you know, the Bahamas or whatever, but like you don't know if they're happy or not. You don't know.

[00:19:20] That was actually one of the things in your book that I loved about like showing how what you posted on social media and that was going on all around you that really wasn't as glamorous, but nobody posts that because that would be stinking thinking. Right.

[00:19:32] There's always a shred of truth in everything, right? Even like, like Nexium, there were some fundamental things that were very interesting and helpful and good. And yet there are also a lot of things that weren't like that's what drew you in.

[00:19:46] Like the system as a whole was very flawed. And so all of these things that you do, it's like, okay, yes, I did go on a trip, but it wasn't really free and I got taxed on it.

[00:19:56] And, you know, I got drunk and all these other things happened and like it didn't really help, but what you saw on social media was very pretty, right? It's just not the whole story. Tell us about some of the red flags,

[00:20:08] some of the most cringy things that happened along the way that you didn't really understand what you were looking at until now. You know, looking back, obviously you can see a lot in hindsight, but even as I was going, even the first night when I signed up,

[00:20:21] I think it's not that you don't necessarily see red flags. You know, your intuition does pop up, but it's again what MLMs are really good at is squashing them immediately, squashing any of those thoughts and preempting any negative thoughts you're going to have before you have them.

[00:20:39] So they might say like, you know, here's the script, for example, like here's the script of what you should post on social media. Well, your immediate reaction is like, ew, that's not even my words, that's gross, but they'll say to you, okay, this is going to feel weird.

[00:20:51] This is going to feel weird, but this is how you step out of your comfort zone and this is how, so everything you do, then when you go into it and you're cold messaging someone and you know, you feel gross about it,

[00:21:01] you're like, oh, but they told me I was going to feel this way. So all of those intuitive feelings are squashed from the get-go and that is really dangerous because then you just lower the bar, right? You're like, oh, then you're just sending cold messages

[00:21:14] all the time, it's no big deal. It's not that you've grown or become stronger or whatever, it's just you've squashed your intuition even more and you have people all around you then who are doing the same thing. And so you're in this sea of people

[00:21:30] who are doing the same thing and then it just adds to that cognitive dissonance of well, they're doing it too and yes, it's not so bad. Now what you're doing is just normal, it's just normal like business stuff, right? Also you're in an echo chamber

[00:21:44] so you're going to get those people to reinforce it regardless. Yeah, and then they start with the if people do say something negative, if someone does come back to you, they're just a hater, they don't want to see you succeed. It's very black and white, it's never a,

[00:21:58] well maybe they just like you but they just don't want to buy these products, maybe they already have something they like. There's never any rational thought behind it. It's very much thought-stopping and if you hear a no, it means not right now.

[00:22:13] It means they just don't understand yet. They don't understand the benefit that they're going to get out of it. So just keep working, keep talking to them and if they say something negative about you they just don't want to see you succeed, they're just jealous.

[00:22:26] And we're going to play a little game shortly about how to handle some of those thought-terminating cliches and MLM sales tactics. Before you do, I want to mention a point that really stuck out to me that I hadn't considered before.

[00:22:38] Just in terms of how like this is a society where we're taught that like, you know, safe boundaries and no means no, especially as women, right? But here's a place where no does not mean no. Yeah. Tell us about that.

[00:22:51] There is a lot of internalized misogyny in MLMs. I mean there's a lot of internalized misogyny in our world, right? This, and so I think it just comes with the territory when you're with a group of pretty much all white affluent women that there's going to be internalized

[00:23:09] misogyny there. And so you have that as like the foundation and then you are told that you know best, you know, this company, this system, this team, this whatever structure that you're in is the best and it's the best thing for you. It's the best thing for everyone.

[00:23:28] Everyone should want to do this. And we know best. And we know best. And if they don't, if they say no, it's because they're not educated. If they tell you it's a pyramid scheme, they're not educated. They just don't have the information. So don't feel bad about that.

[00:23:41] They just don't have the information. So then when you say, you know, someone says no to you, someone says no to your opportunities, says no to your products, you automatically are like, okay, well it's not that they don't want them. It's that they don't understand them.

[00:23:54] They don't understand this company. They don't understand these products and they will. And so it's a very cringy when again you're taught consent and you're taught the meaning of no in your life. But yet you're supposed to never take no for an answer in this one avenue.

[00:24:11] It's kind of a mind fuck, you know. When you say internalized misogyny, you mean amongst the women enforcing it on the women? Oh, for sure. Yes, for sure. And I saw this many times, you know, in different things that have happened.

[00:24:24] I described one situation in the book where, you know, we were at a convention and someone had been, something was slipped in her drink and she had to go to the hospital. Nothing happened or thank God. But you know, this group of women were like,

[00:24:34] oh, but did you see what she was wearing? And so that, that kind of stuff where again, you're in this meritocracy where you are in charge of your own destiny and manifest your own, you know, all that stuff where it's your work

[00:24:48] that gets you to this place of success. And so if you do God forbid have, you know, you're sexually assaulted or something, then the mindset is, well, it must have been something you did. Like that, that's how fucked up it is.

[00:25:01] And how could it not be when you are supposedly in charge of your own success and in charge of whatever happens to you, you control your own destiny? Well, why wouldn't she be in control of everything that goes on around you

[00:25:12] and anything bad that happens to you must be your fault too. The other red flag that I saw, and I'm pretty sure this happened in RMLM too, although I didn't really make the connections till I read your book actually was,

[00:25:22] was the religious undertones or in your case overtones, that it's also a bit of a mind fuck because it's all your own destiny or the boss bait, but it's also God. Oh yeah, so how does that work? The religious manipulation.

[00:25:37] So again, if you don't succeed in your Christian, you're a faith filled person and this is God's plan for you and you see so many, so much of this in social media posts. Like I'm so glad God put this company in my life.

[00:25:53] I'm so glad God blessed me with this and Jesus, all this stuff, right? So if you don't succeed, what does that say about how God feels about you? If you believe God put this in your life, that's a whole nother level. Because obviously religion, believe whatever you want.

[00:26:09] I'm fully like whatever makes you happy, go to town. But religion in its worst manifestation can be very dangerous. We know that. We know that. And so you're adding that intent then to this business and of course I use air quotes because it's not a business

[00:26:24] but that's what everyone says. It just has all the markers of being potentially harmful, right? And you're going to take that on yourself that oh God must not love me very much because God wanted me to do this. Hashtag not blessed. Not blessed. Yes indeed.

[00:26:40] And that was also very cringy throughout your book in the best way possible as I was thinking about all the different people that I was overseeing and trying to help but also had my own intentions for them and one of the big red flags that I saw

[00:26:56] is just your recognition of seeing how like you are helping them but also like is it really what's best for them? Right. And like you guys have said this many times too is you really think you're doing that but nobody goes into these

[00:27:08] and they're like well I'm going to screw some people over and then I've got, you know, nobody goes into it like that. Everyone goes in thinking I have hope that this could work for me and I'm going to tell my friends about it

[00:27:18] because I have hope for them too. So yes, you're benefited from them joining them buying products, whatever. But I really did want my friends to succeed. I really did want that. So then when you see that it's not actually happening it's really hard because I'm like,

[00:27:34] okay I've done all the things and I'm succeeding and they're not. Why? Well I've been told it's because they're not doing the work. Well I'm seeing it with my own eyes. It's really hard to reconcile that. You made a comment in one of your interviews

[00:27:48] where in order for me to make money other people had to lose money. Which I think is kind of like that's a hard thing to sit by and watch when you're trying to help these people and you're recognizing that you are doing well because they're doing that.

[00:28:02] And that's the way the structure is set up. Talk about that. What was that process like? It was a long process, a very long process and once I finally got to that place and you know part of my story obviously is going through alcohol addiction

[00:28:17] and part of my awakening was getting sober and seeing that a lot of the amends I had to make were around this business and a lot of the things I'd been saying I couldn't say anymore and kind of aligning myself back with my intuition before I joined.

[00:28:32] When I joined obviously I was drinking wine when I joined right? So it was like my intuition came back online and I was able to understand what I was doing on a deeper level and yet still I was like okay but yet I've done all these things

[00:28:47] and I'm here, I'm succeeding and you know I still, I want to help these people succeed and so you see in the book it's like I put a lot of money back into the company I put a lot of money back into the people

[00:28:59] and I thought for a long time like how can I sell people this and then not stay? How can I not stick it out with them? Even if they're not succeeding now like I still believed it was possible on some level.

[00:29:13] There was just cognitive dissonance for a long time until it was just so obvious that it was not going to happen and it really was all of the people at the top every convention, every year was the same people. It was the same people in the stands

[00:29:30] watching and hoping. It never changed and if this possibility is available for everybody then you should see more people growing and more people rising at the top it never happened. So it was a very slow process and it was a slow process of knowing

[00:29:47] what do I do now? Because then you have people saying to you don't quit. The only way you fail is if you quit you built this. Why would you walk away from this? And it's like okay, I did and also when you're making money

[00:30:01] it's like how do you just walk away from it? Once you get acclimated to like you make the money you spend the money and again a lot of the money was going back into the system these trips, the car all this stuff

[00:30:13] it was like I had to close the gifts for my team. You got to pay to play. You got to pay to play. Yeah. And so it was slowly untethering myself from not spending as much I wasn't putting as much back into the system

[00:30:25] I really started distancing myself from it and again like asking myself how much money is worth feeling this way? Also you hadn't done the math yet and the profit and loss statement which I thought was really interesting. I was never encouraged to

[00:30:43] you were never encouraged to do a profit loss statement which should be like the first thing in a legitimate business it would be the first thing any business coach would tell you to do and even in the companies every MLM company has their own income disclosure statement

[00:30:57] every single one you can look it up yourself they're all abysmal they are all abysmal and your up lines the company will talk it away because they'll say well lots of people just join they buy the kit because they like the products they don't plan on selling

[00:31:10] they plan on making a profit but the thing is the company knows the company knows the number of people selling the number of people buying the number of people who are actively working and not working so they could disclose those numbers why don't they? Again because it's abysmal

[00:31:25] because most people lose money and it's really damaging because then there's this whole sunk cost fallacy right of you convince someone to join like hey it's a bigger discount whatever just join it'll be fine you know don't look behind the curtain and then they're like

[00:31:43] well I already spent this much money you know I already I'm already this invested in this way with these people with this money and then it makes it even harder to leave This is the golden age of cult recovery the more we speak up and share our stories

[00:32:00] the more we realize we are not alone your voice and your story can empower others this is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I got out movement learn more at I got out.org This episode is sponsored by better help

[00:32:23] What are your self-care non-negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep maybe that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it? Well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time

[00:32:39] as I can outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it Nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself, not grounded Therapy Day is a bit like my nature walks

[00:32:52] I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority I get so much out of it It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind

[00:33:03] so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean? Therapy, thanks for helping me see that

[00:33:12] and if you're thinking of starting therapy give BetterHelp a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge look even when we know

[00:33:27] what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like Therapy are more important than ever never skip Therapy Day with BetterHelp visit betterhelp.com slash culty today 10% off your first month that's betterhelp h-e-l-p.com

[00:33:43] slash culty The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family but everything wasn't as it seemed I just had a 12 year old boy still up here asking for help he's emaciated he's got tape around his legs Ruby Frankie is his mom's name Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie

[00:34:04] the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts in next year we called that buying back the dollar mm-hmm yeah there was a metaphor the same same metaphor of like you're waiting for the elevator

[00:34:24] and you could take the stairs but now you waited so long you keep waiting for the elevator and then you waste more time I forget how the dollar thing worked but it's something about like it's like a stock you invest in a stock

[00:34:34] but the ROI is not coming and you keep trying to pay more to get the dollar back but at a certain point you just have to cut your losses pay it well it's you know you got to spend money to make money that's what you're told is

[00:34:45] and there's all these stupid analogies on real businesses like oh well you have to if you had a store like a store on the street in your town and you opened it you'd have to pay rent right so so buying the products

[00:34:58] is just the rent on your business so it's like what but those things aren't equal but that's what you're told and it makes sense because you're like well that's true right I'd have to have a website and I'd have to have a store with rent and okay

[00:35:10] so I'll just buy all this shitty like college and pudding right like that that makes sense it doesn't make sense I was going to save it for the end but I feel like now we're just going to insert it right here

[00:35:20] because I feel like it would be fun so we're going to play a little game called what would you say now so Emily you're the MLM distributor and I'm your upline and I'm going to say to you what you just said

[00:35:33] so don't worry about the college and pudding like if you had a real you know an actual business you'd have to pay rent so it's the same thing what would you say now I would say no it's not go get therapy

[00:35:44] I was going to say go fuck yourself what I would do now with anything is ask more questions I would say explain to me how that's the same and spoiler alert they wouldn't be able to explain because it's not the same

[00:36:01] and then it would have the added benefit of them maybe going oh gosh I've been saying this and it actually doesn't make sense you know where did you get that information mm-hmm yeah yeah that's good I mean definitely asking questions is better than being snarky

[00:36:14] but I kind of feel like being snarky can you can you give me one now we'll flip the tables and I'm the I'm the distributor and you're the upline something about like okay wait I'm going to give you an objection I just don't feel comfortable calling these people

[00:36:28] because like they're my friends I don't really want to like get money from them and I just I don't like why don't want to do these cold calls well Sarah you joined me do you think I'm bugging you kind of yeah it's a bit annoying

[00:36:42] but you see how that has turned around it's like oh gosh then you feel bad right like I said that and you're right you aren't bugging me and so I'm not bugging my friend either they're common sales tactics were you guys giving common sales tactics

[00:36:56] yeah like give me the comfort zone one I want to respond to that so yeah so Sarah I noticed you I have not been I've been telling you to go live on Facebook and talk about your products I noticed you haven't and

[00:37:08] you know I know you feel uncomfortable but nothing nothing good happens in your comfort zone you know Emily I would agree with that when it comes to like you know maybe speaking in front of people publicly or like running a marathon or something

[00:37:20] but this is going as my intuition and that is the that's not my comfort zone that's my intuition so I'm going to listen to that and try a different career but I wish you all the best with yours how's that yeah

[00:37:31] then it would be like well you just you just don't want to succeed you must not really want this you know what you're right I really don't want this I don't want to be hustling eye cream out of my trunk for the next 10 years

[00:37:43] so I'm going to go you know pursue other options yeah I just what could you say to that what do you say to that what are their options Sarah I don't know anything but this anything but this pyramid scheme anything anything I mean

[00:37:56] when you look at the numbers anything with a minimum a minimum wage job would be more money than 99% of people are making for the amount of hours they're working like anything you could do anything I do think that's like the worst crime is that these people

[00:38:14] who aren't succeeding really think that they're not doing something like there's something they're not doing they're not trying hard enough they haven't found their they haven't found their Madison I love the names in your book by the way Becky, Madison, Vanessa like it's just so

[00:38:27] you're missing a Stephanie I feel like there should be a Stephanie in there you know what I mean yes no Karen I wanted Karen but my editor was like that is too on the nose you cannot use Karen I'm like Kimberly Kimberly is our Karen yeah

[00:38:44] what's happened to Kimberly she's still around sorry I just wanted to find out about Kimberly and then you can ask her oh yeah oh yeah heck yeah she's still around yeah oh no oh totally she did she was nasty you're salty she's nasty

[00:38:56] I'm salty because like I relate so much to Emily and you know our journeys are so similar and it's just like the characters are so similar but the sales thing I actually think that like it's just basic sales like MLM sales

[00:39:07] which I don't know if you know this but like Keith did door-to-door stuff he was in Amway for a bit encyclopedia, CBI was totally MLM and so all the sales stuff that he taught us came from all the different like basic sales things like even feel felt found

[00:39:22] yes you want to tell our listeners what feel felt found is feel felt found is yeah and again this is all stuff like tactics that work in you know just direct one-to-one direct sales not multi-level you know all these things are just sales tactics and there's they're legitimate

[00:39:38] and there's nothing wrong with them but they're co-opted to sell something predatory right that's what makes them it's like you said what is it like the tool in the hands of a chef or a murderer right yeah the knife is a knife

[00:39:51] yeah it's a different use of it but feel felt found is something you know even like with my kids could be like you know say my son comes to me is like I hate math math is hard okay well you know what

[00:40:03] I felt that way when I was your age like I hated math too and I understand how you feel like first is validating like I understand how you feel you know I felt the same way when I was your age but what I found is

[00:40:15] when I just worked at it a little bit every day it got a lot easier and then I started enjoying it so that's a very legitimate use of feel felt found it's like I am I've been there you know my experience is the same as yours

[00:40:29] and here's what's possible right so it offers that hope so in an MLM it's just used to squash very legitimate concerns right you don't want to spend $10,000 going to a convention yeah you don't want to spend $5,000 on leggings you know oh I felt that way

[00:40:45] I felt that way too I didn't want to spend $5,000 either so I understand how you feel but I found that by putting it on a credit card and hiding it from my husband then you know if you didn't know about it we didn't get to fight and then

[00:41:01] you know I lost my house anyway success like you know it's successful it's just a way to apply it to that situation so yes there's a point where like okay you can do feel felt found in these tactics and in your mind

[00:41:17] you're doing something positive for these people and now once you have the perceptual shift that I don't know if you felt this way you felt like you're being predatory or it didn't feel right did you feel like that there was someone quote above you that

[00:41:31] knew they were leveraging your goodness to go carry out making them money or promoting the company and did you have any kind of moment of trying to show them that or like I guess it's abusive hierarchy or abusive system but a lot of

[00:41:45] people aren't cognizant going I'm getting in this to abuse system like we said earlier but there must be someone who understands it's a kind of gag and keeps doing it and obviously when people leave they like you did

[00:41:59] they go oh my god this is a con this is whatever is that one person or is it just an assistant that people buy in and it isn't easy to pin on one person one entity etc is that question

[00:42:11] makes sense yeah it does I think there's different levels of knowing and different levels of denial right like I can say that about you know my own upline who was is like a lovely human being wonderful person legitimately wanted the best for me legitimately thought and still thinks

[00:42:29] that me being in the company would have been the best thing you know very much did not incur did not want me to quit because she really believed by quitting that was on where I fail that like she believed that and still does right so I think

[00:42:43] it's just the level of denial you know not not letting that little bit of critical thinking and that maybe I'm not right about this and then are there people with a level of knowledge for sure like I got to the point where I was like oh

[00:42:57] shit you know I know this is a scam now and and how do I untether myself at what level am I okay being involved and the added problem you know with that is once people get in that deep there then controlled in many other ways right

[00:43:15] like maybe again their church group is involved maybe their best friend is involved maybe their entire friendship circle is this MLM what do you do like I don't feel good about what I'm doing but if I quit I will lose all my friends or

[00:43:29] if I quit like I'm actually the breadwinner now you know I'm actually the one making money now how can I quit this and what do I tell my family like sorry you can't eat tomorrow right so there are absolutely people and the people I'm still in contact

[00:43:43] with who are like hoping to like when the lottery is thick and leave or you know just like taking steps to exonerate get out to excise themselves from the company or who never really fully bought all into it so I think it's just a balancing act

[00:43:59] of how in denial are you how much critical thinking do you still have how much control do these people in this company have over you and what are you willing to still do to be involved I think it's impossible to say it's going to be different

[00:44:15] for every individual person yeah certainly case by case do you find it frustrating like Sarah and I had a couple incidents with some people that have some one of a platform not that much but they have diagnosed our leave in a certain way that's like they've

[00:44:33] anointed themselves through their own anointment they're not really demonstrating it that how we left was the word they used but they were judging how we left right oh yeah oh self protective yeah but they're doing it from a place of their own echo chamber

[00:44:51] meaning so someone in your echo chamber who's validated all the time saying Emily is XYZ and my response was wait I'm diagnosing you it's not like I don't acknowledge your moral superiority that you've anointed yourself over me by saying I'm quitting as failing or whatever it is you

[00:45:09] heard it's like no you're still in your echo chamber and you're still anointed with your self anointment and now you're judging us like it doesn't have validity but because they're surrounded by people that keep validating them to your point they won't ever see it right there's so much

[00:45:25] there but no matter what you do I think you will be criticized because you know me speaking out you guys speaking out you guys just leaving it challenges everything everything that other people need to stay right because if they acknowledge anything you're saying like even the littlest bit

[00:45:45] of oh yeah they were you know that sucks that she was branded ouch you know like they can't acknowledge that or it will be again it'll be negative it will be giving validity to what you're saying and they will not look at it so

[00:45:59] I mean the second I left it was criticism of oh well why didn't you leave earlier and oh well why didn't you do this and why didn't you do that and it's like it's automatically going to be a defensive reaction because they need to dismantle

[00:46:13] you know me and my character what I'm saying or they don't have anything to go off of right yeah once they critique your character and not your behavior and your ideas you know that you're in a different conversation yeah ad hominem attacks yeah I don't participate in those

[00:46:29] because they're not having good faith conversations at that point yeah this episode is sponsored by better help what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep I mean that's my personal and

[00:47:10] everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time the fresh air and the trees

[00:47:24] around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it

[00:47:34] a priority I get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking

[00:47:44] myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule

[00:47:56] just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge look even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself

[00:48:08] non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy day with better help visit better help dot com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month that's better help H.E.L.P. dot com slash culty meals bring people together but for many families providing their

[00:48:26] next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating in Macy's annual feeding the hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through January 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue

[00:48:42] feeding the hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's it's funny the things people criticize like you know someone was like oh well you made all this money and

[00:49:00] sidebar any article any interview they're meant to be click baby right so the articles are always going to be like women make some million dollars and leave sir so people are thinking like I'm this person sitting on this pile of cash right like

[00:49:14] that's not exactly how it works it was over seven like six years like the money went all back to the system it's not like I have this pot of gold now that I'm like ha ha ha you know but people will just look at that and go

[00:49:26] oh well you scammed all these people you should have given that money back to them or you should have published this book for free it's like bitch like do you understand what it takes to write a book no it's like do you understand how money

[00:49:38] works if you get any of that shit just send me the link and I will jump in there and comment we should just have each other's back that way because I get it I don't think giving them a platform and acknowledging them and getting into twitter wars does

[00:49:50] anything no except raise their profile yeah we're in a day and age where attention is the commodity and normally people who build a skill set get the attention based on skill set and people have qualified journalism and degrees are being lumped in with

[00:50:06] people who just want quick bait yeah and you know Sarah obviously like having read the book like again I throw myself completely under the bus it's all my experience and you know I'm not condemning any one person or thing and so when I immediately see

[00:50:18] someone who's like oh I can't believe you write this you know you're shitting on other women or something automatically it's like oh you have no idea what's in the book it's interesting because the negative feedback I get is from people who would never read it

[00:50:30] anyway and so I can't even take those opinions they don't even go in my brain right well they're not based on you yeah exactly yeah and I think that's one of those things too those again these stop and cliches of like you know someone

[00:50:44] else's opinion of you is none of your business right and yes that is true to a point but the way it was co-opted in MLM was if someone criticizes what you're doing they don't matter instead of saying oh this is my mom

[00:51:00] maybe who you know or my sister who loves me and it's just giving me some feedback that you know maybe my posts are cringy you're supposed to just put that filter on it of oh your opinion does not matter your opinion is none of my business

[00:51:12] instead of being constructive feedback it's a very valid comment that to not take other people's opinions who don't know the situation but then it's applied to people who actually care about you and do know about the situation right I also find too

[00:51:26] the more you talk about it is more of an opportunity for you to demonstrate that you're not what's being said yeah exactly like again and this was something I learned in like the recovery process is you know the best strategy is change behavior and I can't do anything

[00:51:42] about the things I've done in the past I can't do anything about the fact that I joined good intentions or not that doesn't matter like I can't go back and do anything about it so all I can do now is try and help educate people that's it

[00:51:56] that's your immense well put your extraction for your waking up process wasn't you know one thing it was many things over time as it usually is many incidences on the shelf that eventually falls all of those things are very gripping in your

[00:52:08] book you're and you're it really is a great read and admittedly it's the first book I've actually read because it's not an audible yet it will be unaudible by the time people listen to this right because you're going to narrate it and damn you Emily

[00:52:20] I had to read your book the first book I've read in probably 15 years I have an incredible bookshelf but I only listen because I have like ADD I can't sit still but I finished your book and it's really good and that waking up process is very

[00:52:36] descriptive and I highly recommend people reading it for themselves and getting inside your mind all the different decisions you made people should read the book but if you want to give us a couple points of what eventually caused the shelf to break and how you escaped yeah

[00:52:48] so again you know I felt like my intuition came back online and a lot of the behaviors that I wasn't comfortable with like you know the cold messaging the obviously I couldn't like have drinks with clients anymore because like

[00:53:02] I wasn't drinking anymore so a lot of my behaviors changed but by the time that happened I had already assembled such a large team underneath me again once you get to that top of the pyramid it's not based on your own work anymore

[00:53:16] so I was still kind of floating as I saw things I didn't like because I kind of exited myself I was like okay I'm going to write my first book like I'm going to go into recovery advocacy I'm going to you know go into writing and I'm going

[00:53:30] to put this on the back burner and so I kind of thought I could just put this MLM on the back burner I'll just collect a check until it dries up that was like what I thought was going to happen but then the pandemic happened and that's when

[00:53:44] just the blatant there was so much predatory behavior around trying to recruit people into MLMs not just from my company but just across the board you know the FTC sent letters to so many companies because it was all this COVID misinformation like take

[00:54:00] this essential oil and it'll cure COVID or join this you know you lost your job that sucks here join my pyramid scheme like all of these just very predatory messages so that was gross to me and then again it was a lot of this co-opting beliefs of your

[00:54:16] uplines that were not vetted by you at all and I saw all of this you know anti-vax propaganda and again like you have your own beliefs about whatever you have beliefs about medical freedom that you have have your own doctor and your own research and you

[00:54:32] have come to these conclusions yourself like I'm not talking about you what I'm talking about is your upline says don't get the vaccine and then you don't and then you tell your team not to like that's fucked up it's the group think yeah and so it took this

[00:54:48] crazy turn and then all of this like you know again like political stuff and again it's not just politics it's not about the behavior it's about why you're believing those things and at that point I was like I cannot be involved

[00:55:02] in this and what was happening at the same time is I was still at the top doing nothing like I had gone offline I'd stopped like recruiting selling publicly people didn't even know I was like still involved in the company I so I just

[00:55:16] totally gone dark and I had still earned like the top title and I was like that's not right that's not right and and that that was it for me where I was like it really is not my own doing it is not on my own

[00:55:30] work it is not on my own accord and I cannot be associated with this like anymore for another second so good I'm looking at my notes there's a couple things that I wrote down like just as I don't have questions but I just wrote performative feminism

[00:55:44] Oh God yes can you just speak to that but like what does that mean to you so performative feminism is again like this girl boss hashtag boss babe be your own boss it's selling this dream that you can have it all right and then what's really

[00:56:00] there is your time is completely dictated by the company right you have to it's not that oh I can work this into the nooks and crannies of my life it's you have to hustle around everything else and you have to make it look like this is

[00:56:16] again it's that supremacy like this is where you want to be you want to be home with your kids and working to you want to have this financial freedom and yet you're like posting pictures in the hospital when

[00:56:28] you're giving birth because for some reason you have to work all the time it's deeply deeply anti-feminist to have no control over your time right and and feminism that doesn't include everyone is not feminism so these MLMs are not feminist on any level because they require

[00:56:46] a level of socio-economic status right you have to have money so it's not feminist it's not offering opportunities for all women when you are not available to all women right also it feels like it compromises the feminine spirit a lot of ways and yeah

[00:57:04] because there's the system of it's not collaboration it's competition it's elbowing your way to the top super catty super catty it's making money off of your friends it's collecting people like what is feminist about that nothing sounds like a bunch of alpha males fight exactly

[00:57:24] and that is what it's upholding ultimately at least you know it's sold it's like oh it's so funny how 9-5's like real jobs are maligned in MLMs like oh stick it to your boss no corporate America and their corporations these MLMs are corporations and not only

[00:57:42] are you not an employee who gets benefits in an actual salary you know maybe it's shitty benefits maybe it's a shitty salary I'm not saying corporate America is great but what I'm saying is these people actually get paid when you're in an MLM you're an unpaid 1099

[00:57:56] contractor and your money that you pay it's pay to play goes to a corporation right so it's just again it's that cognitive dissonance of you're supporting the man you're supporting the patriarchy you're supporting these white CEOs yeah and they are all white CEOs are they men?

[00:58:18] are they men that run it? look at any MLM almost all of them are the CEOs and the upper management or men yes that kind of answers the question I was asking earlier like are these people at the top totally cognizant

[00:58:34] that hey we're going to run this con here and we're going to leverage women's femininity call them girl bosses because we know that they can enroll and we know that there's these areas of vulnerability between this demographic you think it's that conscience?

[00:58:50] oh I think the people at the top there for sure I think the women because again it's 85% women are in these MLMs right and there's a reason for that because again women don't have a lot of options available especially you know women of child bearing years right?

[00:59:08] so this is seen as an option so they are sold as like this is a way to be empowering this is a way to earn money for yourself but the people who are making money again are the people at the top of the pyramid

[00:59:20] the very few and the corporations and yes the corporations are completely cognizant of it like the reason they use an MLM model is because they make so much money from it and it's also funny that Reps will say like oh we're a billion dollar company

[00:59:38] we're a multi-million dollar company billion dollar company but it's the corporation that is earning that money it's none of the women that are doing all of the work okay are you familiar with Douglas Brooks? yes he talks about him in the book she quoted him

[00:59:54] okay so they're obviously abusing a power and you can quantify how they're abusing the power what have you noticed systems are in place that protect them from their inability if it's so egregious what they're doing this is like our third episode on MLMs and it's pretty obvious that

[01:00:10] there are systems in place where it's very hard to stop what they're doing so MLMs are they are protected on so many levels right they are protected politically there's a lobbying organization which probably no direct selling organization that supposedly it supposedly regulates MLMs it's the self-regulated body

[01:00:32] it does not regulate direct selling so they're still on almost 200 billion dollar industry so they're legal pyramid schemes it's huge and so it's bigger than Hollywood I know that's obsessed so the government supports them and protects them lobbyists, politicians are all tied up in MLMs and people don't

[01:00:56] realize even the UN takes money from MLMs right so there's too much political power again I think it all comes down to money it comes down to politics it comes down to the people who are involved that's why they're protected they don't have an incentive

[01:01:14] to say hey government go look at these things that we make lots of money off of and we get money for our campaigns and stuff like why would they go down that road and so the way that they're taken down or investigated

[01:01:26] is on a very small scale it's from the FTC like investigating one MLM like they investigate advocate and then they shut that down or they didn't shut it down but they took away the multi-level components or they investigated VEMMA and they shut that down

[01:01:40] so it's a very small scale or going after distributors that's the other thing is there were recently a few doTERRA representatives were fined like 15 grand for statements they made during the pandemic was the company fined? but the people were so the company then has this level of protection

[01:01:58] because they're just 1099 contractors they can just go well they're not employees we didn't tell them to say that right so they're just so protected at that level and there's no incentive and because there have been it was AMWAY versus the FTC it was the first big thing

[01:02:16] that the FTC tried to investigate AMWAY and because of the way that that turned out essentially every MLM has modeled itself off of AMWAY because they were allowed to stay in operation so all other companies really modeled and sell stuff

[01:02:34] so they can stay legal enough to stay in operation so there's a lot there's a lot to it that's why education is vital what chapter asked the most about the industry I think it's that meritocracy that you are blamed for you're rewarded for your own effort

[01:02:52] and blamed for your own failure and also it co-ops there's so many things to chat my ass this could be long but it co-ops so many of the things that are already over women's heads anyway and I say women because again it's mostly women we've got diet culture

[01:03:08] and all these other things that we're fighting against all the time that are just roped into this and again like mommy wine culture and all the stuff that I fell victim to that are just roped into this thing that is supposed to be empowering

[01:03:24] so it creates this cognitive dissonance that's very dangerous and then it's also again there's the financial exploitation if you're in a church group friendships and the way it just seeks to isolate you in an echo chamber that was a lot of things to chat my ass but

[01:03:42] when did you make the connection that it was a cult experience and how did you figure that out so I started listening to the dream podcast oh that's a good one and I was like uh-oh that was the first thing I was like oh god

[01:04:00] and then I just started kind of reading about cults and I read Ponzinomics which had a whole background of MLMs and so it was just slowly I really started understanding and then when I found the bite model you guys have talked about a lot

[01:04:16] I went down the list and I practically haven't memorized because there were so many things on there that I was like oh my gosh there is so much behavioral control so much emotional control there's so much information control there's so much thought control

[01:04:32] that almost every single thing on that checklist there was something I could identify with yeah that's when I knew it was a cult I was like I've heard this a lot recently and I'm sure you heard the answer not all MLMs are cults I said well

[01:04:50] if that makes you feel better to say that and we always talk about this in the podcast our mission is not to say you're in a cult and that's a cult it's what's happening in the group what are the systems of control what's the behavior from the top

[01:05:06] and is it problematic you don't even have to call it a cult they're abusing one of those things yeah I mean just looking at have I ever bought something that I didn't want to 100% yes have I ever spent time with people I didn't want to 100% yes

[01:05:22] have I ever been coerced to go to something oh yeah I didn't really want to go to convention but I was told that leaders show up yeah I was told to buy this thing because if I didn't I would set a bad example for my team

[01:05:36] was I forced to wear the same thing of everybody else well kind of we all were given shirts with the company logo on them and we were sent to these conferences where they were very scheduled and we didn't get to sleep or eat much

[01:05:52] once you really look into it and then ultimately and I know you guys have said this many times what happens when you leave it's not that it's bad to be involved in something that's a little bit culty but what happens when you leave

[01:06:06] I just wanted to check are you okay good wishes right good luck in your life or did they say you're a hater you're not showing up what's wrong with you what happens when you leave you're dead to me you're a hater it's not that MLMs aren't culty

[01:06:24] like they are to what level have you been coerced and to what level is your own intuition being squashed what do you want to do and have you even asked yourself that so again leaving that little window of what if I'm not 100% right about this

[01:06:44] what if maybe there's more to this what if my haters like might have kind of a point you also brought up a memory for me that I completely forgotten the most cringiest and I can understand why I blocked this out but the recruitment that goes along with both

[01:06:58] right but not only that but like fighting over people as if they're commodities and Nipi didn't have to go through this as much because you didn't really care too much about sales am I right Nip? like you're like whatever yeah I mean also I was kind of like

[01:07:12] it was just too awkward for you it was too awkward for you but you did recruit here and there I couldn't get over my limitations but like how many times especially with Vancouver being such a small city and also the acting community

[01:07:26] like there's only so many actors in Vancouver and people who know each other being like well I told them about it first and then there's a lot but I invited them to the intro session but I got them signed on paper like getting the person on paper

[01:07:40] like the application sign meant that you that was yours the person was yours like what do we owe them? seriously if there's one thing I could go back and like punch myself in the face over is those conversations I can't tell you how many times people

[01:07:56] who were on my team would but I talked to her first and she recruited her and you know fighting over who owns someone or she's brought products from her but she says she wants to join me and Jesus it's so and it just highlights that the financial incentive

[01:08:14] right like they don't care about you they just want your money that's all okay what do you say to people who like obviously if they know anything about you do their research they're not going to invite you to an MLM

[01:08:26] I'm guessing that you've been invited to an MLM I have actually I'm like are you serious or even just another something is there anything that you could say to people or that you would share with people to say to people if somebody invites

[01:08:38] them to like go for wine and check out a business opportunity yeah I mean I would say what's your level of friendship right that's the first place to start is this person even someone who's actually in my life or is it

[01:08:50] a friend like reaching out who I haven't seen for 20 years and that's the stopping point right I would say now like I would never even say yes to go meet Becky for wine right because I would set up that boundary of I know she's not wanting

[01:09:04] to have a friendship here okay so that's the first thing is just evaluate where that friendship is in your circle of people and then you know be compassionate like hey I'm happy for you that you're doing this you know I don't support MLMs if there's some

[01:09:18] other way I can support you you know please let me know in the future I like that when you get out yeah I'll be here to help you or here I'll be like here's my book here you go I think ultimately what as consumers you know

[01:09:32] anyone listening to this who is like oh I'd never joined an MLM or something but you know I might like buy a spatula for my friend who's selling pampered chef or whatever ultimately understanding that that is not support because at the

[01:09:46] end of the day your friend is getting very little of that sale whatever it is your friend is getting very little of that sale their upline's benefiting someone you don't know their upline's benefiting their upline's benefiting and the company's benefiting right so if you care about your friend

[01:10:02] ask what your friend needs like can I come over and babysit for you give you a guess card or something like there's ways to support your friends without keeping them more roped into the MLM because that's what you're doing if you're buying products from them

[01:10:16] so interesting so being a friend to them and giving them support in other ways and you know unfortunately sometimes this can make you a hater make you the unsupportive person but all you can do is just be the soft place to land when and if

[01:10:32] they ultimately do realize that you know they're in a harmful system and that's so much kinder than saying you're in an MLM cult and that's for dumb people or whatever yeah and I just imagine being that person and feeling like oh

[01:10:46] she's not into what I'm doing but she is so supportive and she does care about me and not feeling judged because I think your book also really explains the mindset of being in it and being in that right chest us versus them we're the best group

[01:10:58] and any one who questions it especially family members right there's also this element of like I'm going to prove you wrong you think I you think this is bad I'm gonna I'm gonna succeed at this I'm gonna get to diamond royal empress lady-in-waiting level yeah so ultimately

[01:11:14] if you like if you see someone falling victim to this you know the best thing you can do is just be the soft place to land because the like likelihood is that they're not gonna do well yeah can't say that I did that well when I left

[01:11:28] I was so angry yeah it's hard it is hard there is anger that realization of like oh my gosh I was brainwashed that sucks you know but ultimately I know that I looking back like the people who came at me and saying oh hey you're you know

[01:11:44] you're scamming people or whatever you know I would have thrown this book in a fire 10 years ago yeah thrown it in a fire right totally Nippy do you remember when we saw those we'd only been out for a year or so and we saw

[01:11:56] two people who were still in on the seawall on New Year's Day and I was like happy new years and they like ignored me and look like I might attack them to remember that inner peace inner peace and Nippy was like all calm

[01:12:06] and then I was so mad that they totally ignored me like these were friends of mine and then I was like shunning is not humanitarian and it's like you can't do that but I don't know fuck they're so hypocritical you can't be a humanitarian who shuns

[01:12:22] people he's they're shunning me because I left fuck you so yeah I know that left me I mean ultimately if someone else saying something about their own experience hurts you or invalidates you or makes you feel some sort of way you were either part of it

[01:12:38] or you're in denial yeah yeah well you ought to be curious yeah right you ought to be like hello tell me more yeah ask questions I wish I had been in this emotional state when I left so I could have been like I'm leaving

[01:12:50] now and I wish you all the best and I'll be here if you have any questions there was no chance no of course not I mean I was like no I mean but that's the whole thing that's what the calm accuser the narcissist calm accuser

[01:13:02] has going for them they make ad hominid attacks around your character and then when you respond in kind they go you seem to be quite in a lather about this and they make it about your reaction and that's compounding the abuse so it's it's it's complex

[01:13:16] it's more complex than people like to admit because they don't want to admit that that's possible but you know that's the power of that kind of narcissist you know person who's calm and disconnected because they can always look calm while you're

[01:13:30] pissed off and you're actually the one that's feeling and emotive and has empathy when you get pissed off and that's okay yeah and I think you have to get to some level of anger when you leave these things you wouldn't leave if you

[01:13:42] weren't like I was in that place for a very long time where I was like it's fine I hate it but like nothing it's fine I had to get to that point where I was like I fucking hate this I had to get to that point so

[01:13:54] I think that's it's a totally normal human reaction to feel angry and I think it's at times normal to go be angry I was more comfortable with that we all have our skill sets it's fine I guided my anger appropriately

[01:14:12] I think I don't think I put it in the wrong and I'm so glad you put yours into this book Emily because it really is a gift and I'm pretty sure I said something really wise about why your book is so great will you read it?

[01:14:24] Do you want me to read it? I love it Sarah I love it. So this book is a must read for all women especially those struggling with the deep ache to belong be successful or feel their self-worth Hey hun is at once a cautionary tale an educational service

[01:14:40] and a vulnerable memoir it's essential reading for anyone considering joining trying to escape or healing from the toxic culty structure that is MLM Sarah Edmondson I'm so proud of us No but seriously I'm proud of you but I got an episode

[01:14:58] that doesn't go by where I don't get emotional and the emotional is not self-aggrandizing which it may appear to be it's emotional because it's just like the recognition of all this shit that we've been through in different ways and to come out the other side

[01:15:12] and be able to support each other actually support each other in a true sense of the world we're not performative not in a gross way just like no you did the right thing and I can help bolster you a little bit

[01:15:26] in some way means a lot to me Yeah and I would say that's more hashtag girl boss than the other to button it up when you can promote someone else and know that it doesn't benefit you necessarily right like it's hard to come out of that

[01:15:44] it's hard to not see people as numbers after you've done that for a long time so to have interactions where it's like you know what I like post about your book because I loved it I'm getting anything out of you or whatever

[01:15:56] like it feels good to be in that place and doesn't it also feel good to see people and not like have an ulterior motive just like meet them be like oh where are you from not like what product could I sell you

[01:16:08] and for them to not think you have an ulterior motive I didn't realize how on edge other people were with oh god what's she going to try and sell me today totally totally all and the real friends that stuck it through those years are the ones

[01:16:22] you know you can hold on to god bless them really proud of you tell our listeners where they can find you and how important it is to pre-order which I didn't even know when I wrote my book oh my gosh yes so much

[01:16:34] that goes into it so you can get my book anywhere support your local bookstore I always suggest that they can get any pre-order you want it's available anywhere books are sold the big box stores too and pre-orders are really important because they show

[01:16:48] your publisher that people actually want to read the book and it goes into first week sales that your book can get promoted on lists and junk and all that stuff so it is very important so

[01:17:00] if you ever have an author that you love doesn't have to be me always pre-order their stuff what do you think Sarah want to be a boss babe still I do I think I'll pass I think I'll pass on the boss my brother Devin Edmond Sandilis in Vancouver

[01:17:25] loves to give my sister-in-law like boss babe paraphernalia just for fun like little notebooks that say things like hashtag crush it and you know you got this and live your best life live love love and I feel like I can't wait to

[01:17:37] yeah it's so I'm gonna send her a copy of this book those two are a bit younger than me I'm not gonna say how old or dates me but there's a certain demographic that's like all into the hashtag boss babe phenomenon like just thinking about

[01:17:49] what would have happened if nexium was more like even 12 10 to 15 years later there had been dead bodies we didn't use social media right oh you mean had it started started like 15 years later it's in 1998 if it started in 2008 or even 2013 it would have been a very different beast

[01:18:07] nope wouldn't have been in it well I also don't think it would have outlasted like just the tackiness with the sashes and one of the things I forgot to mention that she said in her book was that all of these

[01:18:17] MLMs had these crazy titles for the next level like Ruby director and Diamond tiara and some of them sound like the title of a hallmark movie you know Royals and Waiting or Lady and Wait whatever sounds like a hallmark movieist you know

[01:18:31] where my worlds collide but just thinking about how if Emily had been in nexium she for sure would have gotten to senior proctor or even counselor or senior counselor what do you think hard to say Sarah hard to say it'd be so checked out

[01:18:45] I just don't care about that this is not your world this is the hashtag boss babe worlds yeah it was but hey that's our hashtag boss babe well I do hope you find us on Patreon for the live zoom with her and

[01:18:57] it's gonna be due maybe we'll even invite Roberta Blovins and have like a little MLM three way oh my god I'm just gonna watch okay I'll be on mute I'll have a beer I'm just gonna watch boss babes boss out that sounds great don't forget to buy Emily's

[01:19:13] book check out her link in our show notes and just have a great day just go crush it got this no leaders lead leaders lead live your best life live second the ocean hanging on to the way to my love if I let go

[01:19:33] of it all I could leave but I know hope you like this episode let's keep the conversation going and come hang out with us on Patreon where we keep the tape rolling each week special episodes just for patreon subscribers and where we get deep into the weeds of

[01:19:54] unpacking every episode of the valve and if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet sweet swag or official podcast merch or list of our most recommended Colt recovery resources visit our website at a little bit Colt.com and for more background on what

[01:20:08] brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called scar true story of high escape nexium the cult that bound my life it's available on Amazon audible narrated by my wife and at most bookstores a little bit Colt is a talk house podcast and a trace 120 production

[01:20:24] we're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy aims with writing research and additional production support by senior producer Jess tardy we're edited mixed and mastered by our rocking producer will rather citizens of sound and our amazing theme song cultivated is by John Bryant

[01:20:40] in co-written by Nigel Asselin thank you for listening