Holy Hell: Will Allen on Unmasking Buddhafield (Part 1)

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass, North.

[00:00:04] North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit.

[00:00:14] North where easy to get to, meets worlds away.

[00:00:20] Go north to Snow Basin.

[00:00:24] Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:26] The views and opinions expressed by A Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts

[00:00:31] and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:35] Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors, or authors

[00:00:39] are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:47] Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first

[00:01:02] goes to the dark side and takes you with it.

[00:01:05] I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:07] And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy.

[00:01:10] Sarah and I met on love in a quote self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult called Nexium.

[00:01:17] We got out of there together and on our way out we helped shut it down.

[00:01:21] Our journey as Nexium whistleblowers was captured in detail in a docu-series called The Vow on HBO

[00:01:26] and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:29] New York Times, babe.

[00:01:30] Right.

[00:01:31] Have you heard of it?

[00:01:32] Each week on A Little Bit Culty we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers

[00:01:36] plus experts in things like cultic abuse and coercive control.

[00:01:40] We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians with wisdom to share on recovering from everything

[00:01:45] from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances with raging narcissists.

[00:01:49] There's always something to learn about the cultiverse.

[00:01:52] Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode littlebitculty.com.

[00:02:13] Welcome back everybody.

[00:02:15] We have a very exciting episode for you.

[00:02:18] Yeah, we're shifting gears here a little bit from the teal swan.

[00:02:21] Debacle.

[00:02:22] Debacle to kind of another one.

[00:02:24] Let's be honest.

[00:02:25] Kind of another debacle.

[00:02:26] Actually these are all debacles really.

[00:02:28] I know but Jesus.

[00:02:30] This is a very special debacle for our heart because when we were first exiting Nexium

[00:02:36] we were introduced to the guest that we're about to have on today in his film

[00:02:41] and that film was a big part of our deprogramming.

[00:02:44] Holy hell and going clear where the two that I watched and was like,

[00:02:48] ah shit I was for sure in a cult.

[00:02:53] Nipi and I deprogrammed pretty quick but this film was,

[00:02:56] you know sometimes it's hard, it's really hard to admit.

[00:02:59] Like there's so much shame around being duped and it's hard to admit

[00:03:03] but when you see the processes of abuse in another context

[00:03:07] it's really hard to deny it.

[00:03:09] Like we were like, oh there it is.

[00:03:11] That's the same thing.

[00:03:13] Yeah at the same time it was, I don't know if validating is the word

[00:03:17] or reassuring is the word to think that like this goes on.

[00:03:21] It is something that is in the world and you're not the idiot etc.

[00:03:25] for falling for it or whatever.

[00:03:27] Right but thank goodness for all of this media out there

[00:03:30] that's exposing these groups.

[00:03:32] We actually haven't watched it yet

[00:03:34] but another thing came on our radar in the cultiverse.

[00:03:36] Many people have emailed us about the adaptation of John Crackauer's

[00:03:40] mini series Under the Banner of Heaven.

[00:03:43] Quick tangent away from our guests for a moment.

[00:03:45] Which we both auditioned for.

[00:03:46] Which we both auditioned for.

[00:03:48] I actually had a callback for the role of Brenda's mother.

[00:03:51] You got robbed Sarah, you got robbed.

[00:03:53] I feel like I got robbed when I had the callback.

[00:03:55] I was like this is my part?

[00:03:56] This is my part.

[00:03:58] I'd already read Under the Banner of Heaven

[00:04:00] because I was prepping for the episode with John DeLyn

[00:04:02] and I was like obsessed with the story

[00:04:04] and holy shit is that a heart breaking, I mean trigger, alert.

[00:04:08] Really graphic, really violent and horrific story.

[00:04:12] I just felt like given what I've been through

[00:04:15] and the fact that I already was researched on the topic

[00:04:17] I thought wow this is my role.

[00:04:19] I didn't get it.

[00:04:20] Maybe I just don't look Mormon.

[00:04:22] I don't look Mormon enough I think.

[00:04:23] Crackauer's a great author.

[00:04:25] For those of you who aren't familiar

[00:04:26] he did Into the Wild, Into Thin Air.

[00:04:28] And we'd love to have him as a guest putting it out there

[00:04:30] and we've had a lot of-

[00:04:31] He's probably not listening Sarah.

[00:04:32] John Crackauer, we'd love to speak with you.

[00:04:34] Call me.

[00:04:35] 6048-

[00:04:36] That's-

[00:04:39] We've also had a lot of support and general love

[00:04:42] because it was your birthday last week, Nip.

[00:04:43] It was.

[00:04:44] And one of our favorite things is somebody sent us a word salad

[00:04:47] for Nipi's birthday.

[00:04:48] A made up word salad about birthdays

[00:04:49] and we're going to save that for the word salad segment.

[00:04:52] That was a good one.

[00:04:53] I was impressed.

[00:04:54] But I think the most favorite thing that somebody sent me

[00:04:56] was this dream.

[00:04:57] I know you love hearing about dreams, Nip.

[00:04:59] I know that's like your favorite thing.

[00:05:00] A dream.

[00:05:01] Wait, I have a no dream policy in the household.

[00:05:03] I know, I know.

[00:05:04] That's why I have to call my mom to share my

[00:05:06] interesting dreams with her or write it in my journal.

[00:05:09] Maybe people can comment on this.

[00:05:11] I think dreams are really interesting but listen to this.

[00:05:13] They're interesting to the person telling them.

[00:05:15] Well, I found this one interesting.

[00:05:16] Listen, last time I dreamt that I was a nexium

[00:05:18] and Keith and Nancy sat me down

[00:05:20] and told me they wanted to carry Keith's child

[00:05:22] and I looked at them dead in the face

[00:05:24] and I said I'd rather shove my hand in a meat grinder,

[00:05:27] laugh my ass off.

[00:05:28] My dream self isn't usually so direct

[00:05:30] so it made me laugh that I'm so disgusted by Keith

[00:05:32] even my subconscious wants to tell him to fuck off.

[00:05:35] That's all.

[00:05:36] Thanks for all you do.

[00:05:37] Hope you're having a great day.

[00:05:39] Thanks, Gabrielle.

[00:05:40] I feel like she channeled me

[00:05:42] because I have dreams like this all the time.

[00:05:43] That was okay because it didn't go into some

[00:05:45] like big esoteric bay thing.

[00:05:47] That was pretty direct.

[00:05:48] I just love that our listeners are telling Keith

[00:05:50] to fuck off in their dreams.

[00:05:52] It just makes me happy.

[00:05:53] I know that's not at cause but that's okay.

[00:05:55] Anyway.

[00:05:57] Oh shit.

[00:05:58] Okay.

[00:05:59] That's a little inside joke for next-yammers.

[00:06:01] Next-yamers.

[00:06:02] Next-yamites?

[00:06:03] Expiens.

[00:06:04] Yeah.

[00:06:05] Let's get to our guest.

[00:06:07] Content warning.

[00:06:08] This episode contains conversations about sexual abuse

[00:06:11] and we want to be sensitive that content

[00:06:13] like what you're about to hear

[00:06:14] can be traumatizing for abused survivors.

[00:06:16] So please listen safely

[00:06:18] and if you or anyone you know needs support

[00:06:20] you can reach out to the rape, abuse

[00:06:22] and incest national networks

[00:06:24] RAINN.

[00:06:25] The organization provides free confidential support

[00:06:27] to sexual assault victims.

[00:06:28] Call RAINN's national sexual assault line

[00:06:31] 1-800-656-HOPE

[00:06:33] or visit the anti-sexual violence

[00:06:35] organization's website for more information.

[00:06:37] We put this info in our show notes.

[00:06:39] Okay about our guest today.

[00:06:41] Will Allen started making films at the age

[00:06:43] of 13 in Southern California.

[00:06:45] He graduated from Southern Methodist

[00:06:47] University in Texas with his film degree

[00:06:49] and shortly after college he ended up living

[00:06:51] in the South of California.

[00:06:53] After college he ended up living inside a guru-based society

[00:06:56] where he continuously created films

[00:06:58] about the secret world he was living in.

[00:07:00] After finally extricating himself two decades later

[00:07:03] he decided to use his archives of film footage

[00:07:05] to tell the complicated 20 year tale

[00:07:07] of his experience.

[00:07:08] He's kind of like the Mark Vicente

[00:07:10] of this particular group.

[00:07:11] Mark Vicente was the Will Allen

[00:07:13] of Nexium.

[00:07:14] His 2016 documentary Holy Hell

[00:07:17] explores the alleged cult that consumed his life.

[00:07:20] A group known as Bouddhafield

[00:07:22] listeners.

[00:07:23] Holy Hell was making its first splash

[00:07:25] right around the same time we were high-tailing at a Nexium.

[00:07:27] Will didn't just direct the documentary

[00:07:29] he lived it and filmed it for two decades

[00:07:31] so we watched it closely

[00:07:33] and it was like we said at the beginning

[00:07:36] very, very helpful.

[00:07:37] And we'll talk about why it was so helpful

[00:07:39] with Will in person shortly.

[00:07:41] Will joined the group when he was fresh

[00:07:43] out of film school looking for a community

[00:07:45] in a sense of purpose.

[00:07:46] And like so many of the stories

[00:07:47] in a little bit culty where people look

[00:07:49] for a normal healthy thing,

[00:07:50] he found it at first.

[00:07:51] It was good for a little while.

[00:07:53] Magical even.

[00:07:54] Will became the group's in-house documentarian

[00:07:56] and propagandist.

[00:07:57] He filmed hundreds of hours of footage

[00:07:59] of the group and became as close to Haime Gomez,

[00:08:01] the guru, at its center as anyone.

[00:08:04] I think it's Haime Gomez.

[00:08:06] Haime.

[00:08:07] Thank you sir.

[00:08:08] But it wasn't what it was cracked up to be.

[00:08:09] Among the accusations that linger over Gomez

[00:08:11] like a stinky cologne,

[00:08:12] one of the most horrible is that he used

[00:08:14] weekly hypnotherapy sessions

[00:08:16] as a way to procure

[00:08:17] and really to coerce his way

[00:08:19] to getting his sexual urges met.

[00:08:21] Holy Hell depicts these so-called healing sessions

[00:08:23] as a source of years of trauma and sexual abuse

[00:08:26] for many of the guru's young male devotees,

[00:08:28] including Will.

[00:08:29] Will joined us to talk about his experience

[00:08:31] of loving and then leaving Boudhafield,

[00:08:33] his recovery and what was really going on

[00:08:35] with all the fruit salads.

[00:08:37] That's not word salads, fruit salads.

[00:08:39] If you haven't seen it,

[00:08:40] be sure to watch Holy Hell.

[00:08:42] It is an excellent film.

[00:08:43] Without further ado,

[00:08:44] here's our chat with director

[00:08:45] and documentarian Will Allen.

[00:09:00] Well, first of all,

[00:09:01] let us welcome you to a little bit culty.

[00:09:03] Welcome to the podcast.

[00:09:04] Thank you guys.

[00:09:05] When we first started doing the podcast,

[00:09:06] and we put a list together of

[00:09:08] all the people we had met

[00:09:10] in the cult space since coming out.

[00:09:12] You were on that list right from the beginning

[00:09:14] because Holy Hell was one of the films

[00:09:16] that we watched.

[00:09:17] Holy Hell was one of the ones

[00:09:19] that sent me in my shame spot.

[00:09:23] I was like, oh no,

[00:09:25] I just saw all the same shit.

[00:09:26] I was just like...

[00:09:27] But it was so helpful, right?

[00:09:28] Obviously.

[00:09:29] It's all that gaslighting stuff

[00:09:31] that we can't see until you see it outside

[00:09:33] happening to someone else.

[00:09:34] Watching it for a second time,

[00:09:36] I was more figuring it out

[00:09:38] when I watched it the first time.

[00:09:39] And so, yeah,

[00:09:40] I got hits of all sorts of things,

[00:09:41] but then I got way more nuanced,

[00:09:43] way more like watching it the second time

[00:09:45] because I knew what I was looking at

[00:09:47] more so than the first time.

[00:09:48] And it was so good

[00:09:49] and so good to watch it a second time.

[00:09:51] Yeah.

[00:09:52] Especially because now we have names

[00:09:54] for those tactics.

[00:09:55] The first time we watched it,

[00:09:57] we were like, oh my God,

[00:09:58] Keith did that too.

[00:09:59] And oh, I totally feel that way.

[00:10:01] But now we're like, oh,

[00:10:02] love bombing,

[00:10:03] oh, boundary testing,

[00:10:04] oh, causing humiliation.

[00:10:06] Oh, like it's all very specific tactics.

[00:10:10] We watched it as patience

[00:10:12] the first time

[00:10:13] and then as clinicians

[00:10:14] the second time, I think.

[00:10:15] One review I had that said something

[00:10:17] like it was like blah, blah, blah,

[00:10:18] maybe so great.

[00:10:19] It almost seemed like a personal exorcism.

[00:10:21] And I'm like, wow,

[00:10:22] you know, I never thought of it as that.

[00:10:24] How long has it been now

[00:10:25] since it came out?

[00:10:26] It came out in 2016 at Sundance

[00:10:28] in competition there.

[00:10:30] And that film has done so well

[00:10:32] and I think is a part of many people's

[00:10:34] resource list.

[00:10:35] And how are you doing now?

[00:10:37] What's it been like

[00:10:38] that you've put your life out there?

[00:10:40] Oh, that was really very rewarding.

[00:10:42] That was lovely.

[00:10:43] It's only been great receptions

[00:10:45] for people.

[00:10:46] And every day we still get feedback

[00:10:48] from people who see it all over the world

[00:10:50] for the first time, right?

[00:10:52] So something about the film

[00:10:53] captured a little bit

[00:10:54] of the experiential

[00:10:55] that people can relate to

[00:10:57] whether they were in that kind of experience

[00:10:59] or not, just the abuse,

[00:11:00] the trust, the gaming,

[00:11:02] the imbalance of power in a relationship.

[00:11:04] People can relate to that

[00:11:05] even if they haven't gone through

[00:11:07] what you and I have gone through.

[00:11:08] So that keeps it alive, I think.

[00:11:11] And the conversations open

[00:11:13] on different levels for people all over.

[00:11:14] So I'm really grateful for that.

[00:11:16] That's kind of all I wanted

[00:11:17] was for it to have a great word of mouth

[00:11:19] and to reach people who needed to see it.

[00:11:21] Well, you for sure achieve that.

[00:11:23] Mission accomplished.

[00:11:24] For our audience who hasn't seen it,

[00:11:27] which I'm assuming will be very few

[00:11:29] by the time this comes out,

[00:11:30] but if there's anyone who hasn't

[00:11:31] or just to remind people,

[00:11:32] do you mind giving us a little bit

[00:11:34] of the cliff notes in terms of

[00:11:36] how you got in,

[00:11:37] how you found this community,

[00:11:39] what you were looking for at the time?

[00:11:41] Yeah.

[00:11:42] It's funny, I'll start at my college

[00:11:44] because that's when it started,

[00:11:45] but I talk in colleges now

[00:11:46] and that's the age group

[00:11:48] when we are most ready for the world

[00:11:50] and we're most expected to take on the world.

[00:11:52] And I just got out of film school.

[00:11:54] I was 22 and I really was burnout.

[00:11:56] And I remember not being ready

[00:11:58] to go just go right into a career.

[00:12:01] And my sister, I was really upset

[00:12:03] and I was gay, but it wasn't okay.

[00:12:05] It was 80s and AIDS was out.

[00:12:07] Everyone's starting to die.

[00:12:09] It was so scary.

[00:12:10] And my mom kicked me out of the house

[00:12:12] because she had read something I wrote.

[00:12:14] And the next day,

[00:12:16] my sister took me to a meeting.

[00:12:18] I met people who were not judging,

[00:12:20] who were open, there was no difference.

[00:12:23] I was being seen as like this divine thing.

[00:12:25] No one had ever seen me as like,

[00:12:27] I never felt beautiful until I went to this meeting.

[00:12:29] And I was like, God, this is amazing.

[00:12:32] I'm so far behind.

[00:12:33] I got to catch up.

[00:12:34] Let me start meditating now.

[00:12:36] So I really just kind of got on the train.

[00:12:38] I felt like that was the answer,

[00:12:40] the meditation part of it.

[00:12:41] And there was this teacher who was,

[00:12:44] we didn't really get to know him very well.

[00:12:46] At the beginning he was very aloof,

[00:12:48] he was very far away.

[00:12:49] He would show up and disappear.

[00:12:51] But there was a social proof of everybody in the room,

[00:12:53] including my sister,

[00:12:54] saying, he's amazing.

[00:12:56] He's my therapist.

[00:12:57] He's enlightened.

[00:12:58] He can help us.

[00:12:59] He can help you, that kind of stuff.

[00:13:01] So the social proof kind of,

[00:13:03] I never vetted it.

[00:13:04] I just believed my friends.

[00:13:05] I believed these people.

[00:13:06] No one was there to hurt us.

[00:13:07] And it was all about love and meditation,

[00:13:09] very Hindu based, very Eastern based,

[00:13:11] but included all the religions like from Christianity,

[00:13:14] everything he's pulled upon all the masters

[00:13:16] and gave it to us.

[00:13:17] And we loved it.

[00:13:18] And for the first three years,

[00:13:19] it was just like this little growing experience.

[00:13:21] I didn't know any abuse was happening, right?

[00:13:24] It wasn't there yet.

[00:13:26] I think your film,

[00:13:27] and we try to do this with every episode,

[00:13:29] and we always have to make the disclaimer.

[00:13:31] We're not trying to show what was good as an apology,

[00:13:34] but it's important to show what was good

[00:13:36] so that people see.

[00:13:37] What hooks you?

[00:13:38] Yeah, what was the hook?

[00:13:39] What purpose was getting fulfilled in me or someone else?

[00:13:42] And we all had different needs,

[00:13:44] but we're all getting some kind of purpose out of it.

[00:13:46] Well, to your point, I think, Sarah,

[00:13:48] what you're saying is recognize how the devil greets you with a smile.

[00:13:51] Yes.

[00:13:52] And the smile is filling your cup

[00:13:54] with what he feels like you need.

[00:13:55] So I think that is a precursor

[00:13:57] to what potentially can be abusive.

[00:13:59] Isn't it say everyone that's coming to help you

[00:14:01] is going to do that?

[00:14:02] But when it comes dressed up as help,

[00:14:04] it's a harder thing to make a distinction.

[00:14:06] I said this also when we interviewed a survivor

[00:14:08] from the Osho community,

[00:14:10] from the ranch in Oregon,

[00:14:12] like the good things on the outside of that community

[00:14:15] reminded me of what you showed in Holy Hell

[00:14:17] with people coming together and being in nature

[00:14:19] and holding each other and being in the water

[00:14:22] and being in the tree, like totally my jam.

[00:14:24] Not so much Nippy's jam.

[00:14:26] I went along with it.

[00:14:27] You know, I think it's important to go like

[00:14:29] there are certain things that weren't my jam

[00:14:30] that I was still stayed in.

[00:14:32] Yeah, I'm just saying like with Boudrefield,

[00:14:33] like they did things in nature

[00:14:35] and together that seemed really beautiful.

[00:14:37] And I could see if I was a little bit younger in the 80s

[00:14:40] or older in the 80s because I would have been like

[00:14:42] five when that was happening, right?

[00:14:44] I've been a bit older and been invited.

[00:14:46] I would have really loved that.

[00:14:47] So I get it.

[00:14:48] The things that we did at the time,

[00:14:50] I don't know, they seem very healthy

[00:14:52] and natural and conducive.

[00:14:54] It is true compared to how we were.

[00:14:56] I come out of college doing drugs and everything.

[00:14:58] So I mean, the whole thing was a big switch for me

[00:15:00] like healthy and do conscious things.

[00:15:02] You know, I think everyone on the planet

[00:15:04] should learn those things.

[00:15:06] That doesn't have to be in a group of any kind.

[00:15:08] It's just that he was our introduction to that.

[00:15:10] That was kind of it swooned us, you know,

[00:15:12] made it all so good.

[00:15:14] And I want to bookmark to ask you later

[00:15:16] and if you remind me to come back to like

[00:15:18] how you feel about that stuff now.

[00:15:20] But before we get to that, okay, so things were great.

[00:15:22] And again, I loved the film.

[00:15:24] I think similarly to the vow,

[00:15:26] I think it's so important to show people

[00:15:28] what you thought it was.

[00:15:30] Like what drew people and what was the hook?

[00:15:32] How did it feel to be part of that community?

[00:15:34] Because there seems to be like this moment

[00:15:36] in your film even said this, is that the crazy stuff

[00:15:38] is always outweighed by the amazing stuff.

[00:15:40] Right.

[00:15:42] It's like crazy grandma. We have crazy people now.

[00:15:44] But look at all this good stuff.

[00:15:46] Yes.

[00:15:48] Yeah, now you can do a good job

[00:15:50] of extending the respect to your subject.

[00:15:52] Well, we try to make it a human condition

[00:15:54] because we're all susceptible to impressions

[00:15:56] and only lack of information

[00:15:58] and weird decision making

[00:16:00] and things you decide when you're 20,

[00:16:02] you know, we were all...it's a human journey

[00:16:04] well put, yeah.

[00:16:06] So in all that good stuff, do you remember

[00:16:08] the first moment that you had

[00:16:10] that in retrospect now you'd see as a red flag?

[00:16:12] You know, there were so many of them

[00:16:14] and I was so well trained to like compartmentalize those

[00:16:16] and like to not...

[00:16:18] And that was part of the journey you don't question.

[00:16:20] Right.

[00:16:22] Those aren't really up for grabs. That's part of the mystery.

[00:16:24] So those are red flags. Now those are red flags, right?

[00:16:26] Yeah.

[00:16:28] So yeah, I had quite a few red flags

[00:16:30] but most of them didn't start until he pulled me in closer

[00:16:32] and I was like, oh, see, so I got really close.

[00:16:34] He started teaching me to do massage

[00:16:36] for his body which is non-sexual

[00:16:38] but it was still like a whole different field

[00:16:40] of knowledge for me. I was a filmmaker.

[00:16:42] So I started being his chauffeur,

[00:16:44] his practitioner, his body worker,

[00:16:46] I learned chiropractic.

[00:16:48] Fitting time around him close up, that's when the illusion fell.

[00:16:50] That's when the curtain fell

[00:16:52] and the awe...

[00:16:54] He was no longer the big wizard behind the curtain.

[00:16:56] It was this man, this very little man

[00:16:58] with a very big ego

[00:17:00] that he wrapped it all up in,

[00:17:02] well, this is just God being God-conscious.

[00:17:04] This is as God as God.

[00:17:06] We don't edit yourself. You don't have to change yourself.

[00:17:08] You just be who you are.

[00:17:10] So I had to accept him as who he was

[00:17:12] and he was a bit of a narcissistic tyrant

[00:17:14] and asshole

[00:17:16] and I started to take that as

[00:17:18] there's something wrong with me if I think that's wrong.

[00:17:20] Right.

[00:17:22] Everything that's wrong with him, you start taking it about yourself

[00:17:24] like what's wrong with me that I'm judging him?

[00:17:26] So all your flags were really self-problems

[00:17:28] and I was like,

[00:17:30] I'm not gonna see it again.

[00:17:32] It's your own limitation

[00:17:34] that you can't see that this

[00:17:36] Meglomaniac douchebag is trying to teach you something.

[00:17:38] I have a question there at the point

[00:17:40] which is interesting to me.

[00:17:42] There comes a point where I think the narcissist

[00:17:44] or whatever must realize

[00:17:46] he's not the persona he is to everyone else.

[00:17:48] Right?

[00:17:50] And when he invites you into his inner circle

[00:17:52] he must know that you're gonna see

[00:17:54] how he's not the persona that he boasts.

[00:17:56] Yeah. So how do you think he knows to do that?

[00:17:58] Because he watched me

[00:18:00] and I was a really, really, really,

[00:18:02] really good disciple.

[00:18:04] I was like one of those guys who helped everybody

[00:18:06] and if anyone, if there was service

[00:18:08] we'd have these things called service like someone's moving

[00:18:10] we need people to help them move. I'll help

[00:18:12] or I'll go and so I was like yes, yes, yes

[00:18:14] to everything and that was a quality

[00:18:16] that he liked is my understanding

[00:18:18] right because he even said to someone

[00:18:20] look at Francesco he says yes to everything

[00:18:22] and I heard that.

[00:18:24] I was like, oh, I guess I do.

[00:18:26] I mean because we were supposed to say yes to everything

[00:18:28] right and so I was good at it

[00:18:30] and I think he thought that I would be a yes

[00:18:32] man I imagine.

[00:18:34] My sister said it in one of our interviews

[00:18:36] that oh Will was so, you know, sweet

[00:18:38] non-confrontational

[00:18:40] That's what he abused.

[00:18:42] He abused that. He abused my trust, my innocence

[00:18:44] and my non-confrontational yeah.

[00:18:46] Yeah there was one moment when

[00:18:48] my trust was tested like you would if you're around somebody

[00:18:50] you know if I blew it

[00:18:52] and he said I'm never going to let you be around me again

[00:18:54] because you told that person about that thing

[00:18:56] you can never say anything

[00:18:58] to anyone about anything you hear

[00:19:00] otherwise you can't be around me

[00:19:02] and so at that point I just completely shut off

[00:19:04] and I cut off all my friends

[00:19:06] I couldn't tell anyone anything

[00:19:08] and I just became my own person observing all this

[00:19:10] and then the flags were

[00:19:12] things I would find and hear him say

[00:19:14] and how I would see him treat people

[00:19:16] it just didn't ring without everything else was happening.

[00:19:18] I really got a clear sense

[00:19:20] I'm rewatching it in a way that I didn't the first time

[00:19:22] just how much everybody

[00:19:24] was very proud to serve him

[00:19:26] you know and how

[00:19:28] like they really put everything

[00:19:30] aside and it felt really

[00:19:32] good to people. They didn't

[00:19:34] feel resentful at a time I'm imagining

[00:19:36] like they loved making the elaborate

[00:19:38] fruit salads and carrying the bags

[00:19:40] which by the way we have

[00:19:42] a whole list of things that parallel our experience

[00:19:44] yes

[00:19:46] and that was one of them

[00:19:48] he was always driven

[00:19:50] everyone cooked his food

[00:19:52] brushed his hair presented his clothes

[00:19:54] everyone didn't do a fruit salad

[00:19:56] that was that one person's way of expressing their

[00:19:58] exuberant love right

[00:20:00] by the way it was pretty fucking good

[00:20:02] those fruit salads were beautiful

[00:20:04] those fruit salads were amazing

[00:20:06] the last supper I was like

[00:20:08] holy shit how long did that take

[00:20:10] it was amazing

[00:20:12] I'm so glad you still have images of those

[00:20:14] now that you know about narcissistic abuse what do you now see

[00:20:16] I don't know if this is like it for you guys

[00:20:18] for you all but there was a constant fear

[00:20:20] that if you fuck up your out of here

[00:20:22] and that's going to be your downfall

[00:20:24] of your spiritual evolution

[00:20:26] whatever you're doing here

[00:20:28] you know your spiritual growth if you

[00:20:30] screw this up make one mistake you're out

[00:20:32] it was really scary because

[00:20:34] even though he never said that that was the feeling

[00:20:36] it was very Christian kind of over bear

[00:20:38] not that Christian's wrong but

[00:20:40] I was raised Catholic and then that bearing

[00:20:42] like I'm gonna sin or something

[00:20:44] even though we never talked about that so

[00:20:46] I was always on my best behavior because

[00:20:48] I didn't want any of this to fall apart

[00:20:50] I didn't want to tell anything that was gonna

[00:20:52] make anything ruffle anything he also made

[00:20:54] it really clear to me and tell me what you think

[00:20:56] about this as part of becoming a

[00:20:58] leader he made it really clear that his

[00:21:00] work with each of us was individual

[00:21:02] so if I interfered like if I interfered

[00:21:04] with your work Sarah and I said Sarah

[00:21:06] did you know that he's

[00:21:08] he would come back to me and say

[00:21:10] you are interfering with her karma

[00:21:12] you are

[00:21:14] fucking up her a chance

[00:21:16] to work with me

[00:21:18] and if you interfere that that's your

[00:21:20] big problem right so I would never

[00:21:22] interfere I would just let him do whatever he did

[00:21:24] with everyone else thinking that he knows best

[00:21:26] yeah my impression Sarah and

[00:21:28] because we were never in Keith's circle

[00:21:30] it never felt like that to me

[00:21:32] in our day-to-day but I do

[00:21:34] get a sense and impression of watching

[00:21:36] what went on in holy hell

[00:21:38] and what I've heard has gone on in Keith's

[00:21:40] center circle is those are very similar

[00:21:42] clients division Colts

[00:21:44] will separate you from society

[00:21:46] or they will alienate you but not

[00:21:48] literally they will they will figuratively

[00:21:50] do you from your parents and your friends

[00:21:52] and stuff like that right well mine

[00:21:54] mine was even a little worse because I got

[00:21:56] removed from my group my new group of

[00:21:58] friends like my new family

[00:22:00] you know I couldn't even be with them

[00:22:02] when they were what I really loved right

[00:22:04] yeah and so that the three years in I

[00:22:06] got removed I was just around him the whole time

[00:22:08] and that was like another level of being

[00:22:10] removed from even that society

[00:22:12] yeah so isolation within isolation

[00:22:14] yeah like to be said we thought we were

[00:22:16] kind of upper rank we were upper ranks

[00:22:18] but we weren't in our circle so

[00:22:20] we had certain privileges and we were part

[00:22:22] of certain meetings but we didn't live in Albany

[00:22:24] I wasn't part of Keith's harem

[00:22:26] but I did notice that you know

[00:22:28] with the women that were my friends

[00:22:30] my really good girlfriends I

[00:22:32] thought were good girlfriends they

[00:22:34] didn't share with me that they were in a

[00:22:36] relationship with him because same exact

[00:22:38] thing he told you and the others

[00:22:40] that other people can't know about this

[00:22:42] because they can't won't understand

[00:22:44] they won't understand it's not for them

[00:22:46] yeah they won't understand yeah

[00:22:48] yeah the first time he did this with me

[00:22:50] when he brought me into that relationship

[00:22:52] my teacher was like this with me

[00:22:54] it's very special right very special

[00:22:56] to your point Sarah the culture of fear

[00:22:58] that Will's describing you said you had

[00:23:00] many experiences of some of the

[00:23:02] women in that circle that felt like

[00:23:04] culture of fear right those had to check

[00:23:06] in and they feel like they were scared a lot

[00:23:08] they were always on high alert and

[00:23:10] there's so many things didn't make sense

[00:23:12] until we got out and we found out that all

[00:23:14] this sexual relationships was going on

[00:23:16] and I think that both

[00:23:18] of our respective leaders were

[00:23:20] very successful in compartmentalizing

[00:23:22] and making sure people didn't

[00:23:24] talk or share under

[00:23:26] the guise of they won't understand

[00:23:28] you're special this is just for us

[00:23:30] and so then people don't talk

[00:23:32] people don't share these things and if you ever did

[00:23:34] then you'd see the whole picture

[00:23:36] and the people who it's happening to probably

[00:23:38] don't recognize it as sexual abuse or abuse

[00:23:40] yet it doesn't fall into that level

[00:23:42] and this is how I realize this is after

[00:23:44] making the film I kind of finally wrap

[00:23:46] my head around the abuse and the level of

[00:23:48] unconcential sexuality

[00:23:50] that was happening how do you know

[00:23:52] that when you still don't even know who you are

[00:23:54] and you're still forming it well this is how I knew

[00:23:56] and I'm going to share this with you because anyone out there

[00:23:58] who has this experience might understand

[00:24:00] it if right after that act

[00:24:02] that you're having with that other person

[00:24:04] is like he would have this

[00:24:06] sexual relationship with me once a week

[00:24:08] and the tension that would build

[00:24:10] up to that night to that day

[00:24:12] was so intense and as soon as

[00:24:14] that was over something in my mind

[00:24:16] would say okay you're okay for a week

[00:24:18] you're okay for a week

[00:24:20] just everything's going to go back to normal

[00:24:22] you're okay

[00:24:24] and so I would forget about it

[00:24:26] he would act normal I would not tell anyone

[00:24:28] it would all be compartmentalized

[00:24:30] and then Tuesday would come around

[00:24:32] Thursday's coming and Wednesday

[00:24:34] would come I'm like oh my god tomorrow night

[00:24:36] and Thursday would come I'm like oh my god

[00:24:40] and then it'd be over I'd be like okay

[00:24:42] you're okay you're okay it's another week everything's back to normal

[00:24:44] so I never saw that

[00:24:46] I just saw that as my personality having a problem

[00:24:48] with something that I was being

[00:24:50] given right but that's

[00:24:52] abuse and that's what you need to listen to

[00:24:54] yourself if you are in any relationship

[00:24:56] with anyone and you're feeling like I can't do this

[00:24:58] then God it's over well

[00:25:00] you need to look at that

[00:25:57] what are your self-care non-negotiables

[00:25:59] maybe you never skip leg day

[00:26:01] or never miss yoga maybe it's getting

[00:26:03] eight hours of sleep I mean that's

[00:26:05] my personal and everyone's dream isn't it

[00:26:07] well I definitely have some non-negotiables

[00:26:09] like I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:26:11] and I'm spending literally as much time as I can

[00:26:13] outside in nature hashtag

[00:26:15] cold pools hashtag crushing it

[00:26:17] nature is a non-negotiable not enough time

[00:26:19] the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel

[00:26:21] not great not myself not grounded

[00:26:23] therapy day is a bit like

[00:26:25] my nature walks I try to not miss it

[00:26:27] and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better

[00:26:29] all around if I make it a priority

[00:26:31] I get so much out of it it helps me put

[00:26:33] my worries and anxieties in their rightful place

[00:26:35] and helps me clear my mind so I can focus

[00:26:37] on what I really need and sometimes what I don't

[00:26:39] need like I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:26:41] just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean

[00:26:43] thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that

[00:26:45] and if you're thinking of starting therapy

[00:26:47] give better help a try it's entirely

[00:26:49] online designed to be convenient flexible

[00:26:51] and suited to your schedule just fill

[00:26:53] out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed

[00:26:55] therapist and switch therapists anytime

[00:26:57] for no additional charge look

[00:26:59] even when we know what makes us happy it's

[00:27:01] hard to make time for it but when you feel

[00:27:03] like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables

[00:27:05] like therapy are more important than ever

[00:27:07] never skip therapy day with better

[00:27:09] help visit better help dot com slash

[00:27:11] culty today to get 10% off your first month

[00:27:13] that's better help H E L P

[00:27:15] dot com slash culty

[00:27:17] meals bring people together

[00:27:19] but for many families providing their

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[00:27:27] food drive all proceeds go

[00:27:29] toward local food banks and families

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[00:27:47] can you tell our audience

[00:27:51] and bring us through the moment of actually

[00:27:53] deciding to leave

[00:27:55] I'll say the moment that I really

[00:27:57] actually had the power to leave was

[00:27:59] after he had already started to break up

[00:28:01] and all of my

[00:28:03] friends and family were departing half

[00:28:05] of us left half of us didn't half of

[00:28:07] us didn't know I was so bound to him

[00:28:09] like I was just like tied to him

[00:28:11] I had no money so I was

[00:28:13] with him until he went to Hawaii

[00:28:15] but I also had a little partner

[00:28:17] at the time I'd gotten to a relationship

[00:28:19] with him in the last couple years and he was

[00:28:21] like my strength and I was more

[00:28:23] in love with him than I was

[00:28:25] with anything that was going on in the group

[00:28:27] and I think my inner commitment

[00:28:29] to the group was to serve the group as a

[00:28:31] whole and when it started to fall

[00:28:33] apart and everyone started leaving

[00:28:35] I was done and I said there's

[00:28:37] nothing here to serve I don't believe

[00:28:39] this anymore this is all wrong you

[00:28:41] start to come out of the damage we're

[00:28:43] starting to come out of what's happening

[00:28:45] and letting it soak in and really

[00:28:47] that point because there was no one

[00:28:49] really left there

[00:28:51] that my brothers and sisters we weren't

[00:28:53] doing it anymore we stopped and that's what

[00:28:55] allowed me to get out because I thought I was there

[00:28:57] helping you know I thought we were all there

[00:28:59] helping each other and we weren't

[00:29:01] hurting each other yeah just a backtrack

[00:29:03] for a second what was the catalyst that

[00:29:05] caused the group to dissolve was it the people

[00:29:07] who were writing letters and trying to show

[00:29:09] shine light the letters really helped

[00:29:11] shine light the letters and people talking

[00:29:13] and starting to talk really really helped

[00:29:15] shine light there was a moment when I was

[00:29:17] in Hawaii with him when he said to me

[00:29:19] this is after 20 years of like me

[00:29:21] serving and 14 years of me

[00:29:23] driving him and taking care of his

[00:29:25] ass

[00:29:27] literally literally

[00:29:29] he looked to me in the backseat of the car

[00:29:31] I was driving the car and I told him

[00:29:33] I wanted to move out of the house I got

[00:29:35] listen we're in Hawaii I have me and

[00:29:37] Boyd are looking for a place

[00:29:39] and he goes if you've ever done

[00:29:41] service now is the time to do it

[00:29:43] I go what do you mean if I've ever done service

[00:29:45] you've ever done any service in your life

[00:29:47] now is the time to do it you can't leave

[00:29:49] if people see you leave I go listen

[00:29:51] if you can't keep people here

[00:29:53] I'm not going to keep people here

[00:29:55] they're not here for me they're here for you

[00:29:57] I'm leaving and that was when I told him I was leaving

[00:29:59] but he turned it into a

[00:30:01] I have service to do and that is to keep people

[00:30:03] there right that was like

[00:30:05] he thought that would be my thing

[00:30:07] like you can't do that it's gonna be a bad impression

[00:30:09] out there are you guys is this ringing

[00:30:11] true for you guys at all

[00:30:13] this kind of he's protecting his image he was still protecting

[00:30:15] his image he was still he was still trying to

[00:30:17] protect his image using us as human shields

[00:30:19] and I was like no

[00:30:21] no no it's over it's over

[00:30:23] you know yeah he recognizes your power

[00:30:25] at that moment I had the power

[00:30:27] the whole time I had the power

[00:30:29] the whole time and I didn't

[00:30:31] use it you did now I did now

[00:30:33] yeah but I mean at the moment I never

[00:30:35] thought I could just walk away and I'd be okay

[00:30:37] never

[00:30:39] well that's such a key part of the abuse

[00:30:41] is creating that belief

[00:30:43] and every single cult

[00:30:45] survivor we've spoken to has

[00:30:47] that I think it's called implanted phobia

[00:30:49] like what's gonna happen if you leave

[00:30:51] right like you're gonna I think many

[00:30:53] people said in your group that they would

[00:30:55] be dead within a year playing crash

[00:30:57] do thing

[00:30:59] aids you're gonna die if you're not with me

[00:31:01] all that grace is gonna like dissolve

[00:31:03] all that protection yeah we didn't have that

[00:31:05] ours was more like

[00:31:07] you'll never work through your issues

[00:31:09] we're gonna you weren't gonna die

[00:31:11] yeah same process

[00:31:13] yeah you're gonna go backwards you're not gonna

[00:31:15] you're not gonna achieve what you're trying to achieve

[00:31:17] whatever you know one of the things that Sarah and I were talking

[00:31:19] about or and pointed out to Sarah is

[00:31:21] you know why they need to humiliate

[00:31:23] and I think the humiliation

[00:31:25] you know we know that Keith

[00:31:27] attempted some things at the end to up the

[00:31:29] humiliation and I think the assumption

[00:31:31] in that is if people

[00:31:33] knew the truth about me

[00:31:35] they're gonna know the truth about you and it's gonna

[00:31:37] humiliate you so the reason I'm abusing you

[00:31:39] is to keep you in

[00:31:41] because if the truth comes out you're humiliated

[00:31:43] and I know you're afraid of humiliation

[00:31:45] so for instance remember when

[00:31:47] he was putting food in the women's mouths

[00:31:49] and they were like crying and they were talking about

[00:31:51] being humiliated I think what you're saying

[00:31:53] as a moment where he's shaming

[00:31:55] and humiliating you the shame

[00:31:57] it's a bond that's being created

[00:31:59] with him and

[00:32:01] their shame right

[00:32:03] so I now have the goods on you too

[00:32:05] so if I'm going down

[00:32:07] you're going down there is an element

[00:32:09] of once you're in you're in

[00:32:11] and that you're committed and if you're committed

[00:32:13] I go down you go down you protect me I protect you

[00:32:15] there is all of that in

[00:32:17] incessual but that is manipulative

[00:32:19] control you're right for sure also

[00:32:21] I'm not gonna be motivated to

[00:32:23] come clean with all this because it's humiliating

[00:32:25] I have to humiliate myself

[00:32:27] in order to hold this person accountable

[00:32:29] and I think that's a hard thing to do

[00:32:31] it's a brave thing to do but it's a very difficult

[00:32:33] thing to do because you have to eat your own crow

[00:32:35] and so I think all your subjects

[00:32:37] were brave in that and I think that was

[00:32:39] the most commendable thing about this whole process

[00:32:41] No it's true we're all part of that

[00:32:43] you know it seems like a shameful journey

[00:32:45] or some at some point because we all take on

[00:32:47] the crimes of the leader

[00:32:49] when they weren't really our crimes it's like

[00:32:51] I got out and I was talking to someone I had a

[00:32:53] psychologist after a while because a friend

[00:32:55] of mine had had her and he said he was suicidal

[00:32:57] I'm like well I'm not suicidal maybe I need to

[00:32:59] talk to her he goes you've been dealing

[00:33:01] with a narcissist this is in 2000 before I made

[00:33:03] the movie and I go well I need to talk to her

[00:33:05] since she already knows I'm dealing with a narcissist

[00:33:07] and it's damaging and so I saw her I asked

[00:33:09] her right away after a couple sessions I go

[00:33:11] I'm so worried like am I a narcissist because

[00:33:13] you know I spent so much time we all spent so much

[00:33:15] time around him and like following him

[00:33:17] and you know believing him

[00:33:19] and she's like no no no

[00:33:21] a narcissist would never even

[00:33:23] ask that question they wouldn't

[00:33:25] even assume that they could possibly

[00:33:27] be a defect of their they wouldn't even

[00:33:29] ask that I mean it's like never it's not

[00:33:31] even you know they don't even work on themselves

[00:33:33] on that level you know what I mean no because

[00:33:35] they're perfect yeah I thought it was interesting

[00:33:37] in your story and tell me if you remember

[00:33:39] this right tell me about this because

[00:33:41] Mark had told me this when I first met him

[00:33:43] and he had said that your teacher

[00:33:45] was so clever in the fact that he

[00:33:47] actually even had classes about narcissism

[00:33:49] what to look out for and this is

[00:33:51] what to look for you know and we kind

[00:33:53] of did that too we kind of laugh like yeah we

[00:33:55] thought about that but we're not you know

[00:33:57] and it was so clever to not have

[00:33:59] you look at him because he's self aware

[00:34:01] of it well we since learned that sociopaths

[00:34:03] love to do the thing that

[00:34:05] was it act in plain sight

[00:34:07] like talk to you like with a mouse

[00:34:09] in a cat yeah to do it right in front

[00:34:11] of you so you'd never suspect it yeah he

[00:34:13] taught us about narcissists he taught us

[00:34:15] about sociopaths and specifically how they

[00:34:17] would like people who are unethical

[00:34:19] suppressives sociopath people would

[00:34:21] create problems in the world

[00:34:23] that cost a lot of money and then also

[00:34:25] benefit from the

[00:34:27] cost of fixing the problems

[00:34:29] and that's exactly what he did to us

[00:34:31] he basically exposed these

[00:34:33] issues and we were apparently working

[00:34:35] on them as we become joyful and enlightened

[00:34:37] but really we were focusing so much on

[00:34:39] our shit on our

[00:34:41] patterns and our issues we were like

[00:34:43] we felt like shit and we also felt if

[00:34:45] we bought in which many of us did

[00:34:47] that we then had to keep paying to go

[00:34:49] on the path the straight path like fix

[00:34:51] our shit but like really we're not

[00:34:53] broken in the first place that's something that happened

[00:34:55] a lot someone brought it up in our art we had

[00:34:57] hypnotherapy with this teacher he was our

[00:34:59] hypnotherapist back in the day and we would

[00:35:01] work on we'd regress therapy go back to your

[00:35:03] child and kind of beat up whatever it was

[00:35:05] you didn't have the power to as a child

[00:35:07] perhaps as a baby or

[00:35:09] five-year-old you know you say fuck you

[00:35:11] fuck you or a 45 year old

[00:35:13] yeah

[00:35:15] well there you go

[00:35:17] here we were 45 years old

[00:35:19] still saying back to you back to you

[00:35:21] and this one girl goes every time he kept bringing

[00:35:23] me back to my fucking crib for 15 years

[00:35:25] every problem I brought to him

[00:35:27] he would say let's go back to the crib

[00:35:29] and she's like I don't want to go back to the crib it's not happening there

[00:35:31] you are keeping us infantile

[00:35:33] you are keeping us

[00:35:35] small and back stuck

[00:35:37] by re recurring the problem

[00:35:39] over and over again never really getting

[00:35:41] us out of it that happens when you do

[00:35:43] excessive talk therapy you know are

[00:35:45] you really healing that and so you know

[00:35:47] we got a lot of benefit from him a therapy with the first

[00:35:49] five you know first couple years and the first

[00:35:51] couple sessions you get a lot of relief

[00:35:53] from any kind of self hypnosis you know

[00:35:55] that you've had your whole life yeah any sort of inquiry

[00:35:57] yes and that seems to be a through line

[00:35:59] to there has to be some sort of legitimate

[00:36:01] actual in our case mutually

[00:36:03] you know this therapy that's

[00:36:05] useful and you have these moments of release

[00:36:07] and then from then on you're trying to like get more of that

[00:36:09] absolutely right that's right chasing

[00:36:11] chasing the high first one's free

[00:36:13] the person wasn't free though yeah that's true

[00:36:15] it's $50 the other

[00:36:17] thing that makes it it's hard to get

[00:36:19] so see we weren't allowed to go to all

[00:36:21] the classes right away you had to wait you had to

[00:36:23] kind of you had to kind of like some

[00:36:25] people once we got to Austin they had to wait three years

[00:36:27] before they even got to meet them so

[00:36:29] that makes the prize so

[00:36:31] Jesus precious so once I got

[00:36:33] to go to class once I got to go

[00:36:35] movies with them the condition was

[00:36:37] once you get invited you can't quit so the

[00:36:39] value is so like so we

[00:36:41] went to class I went to class every week for

[00:36:43] 20 years these are acting classes you know

[00:36:45] we all did you couldn't quit if

[00:36:47] you didn't go one week it would be like what's wrong

[00:36:49] you remember how badly you wanted this so

[00:36:51] the scarcity mentality and

[00:36:53] then you have like embedded FOMO

[00:36:55] right it is FOMO and he's any uses

[00:36:57] that like that one woman in Miliana I

[00:36:59] think her Miliana was her name when when everyone

[00:37:01] was presented with the knowing and

[00:37:03] Jess our producer when she's helping us prep for this episode

[00:37:05] was like anytime knowing becomes

[00:37:07] a noun is like should be

[00:37:09] a red flag right yes

[00:37:11] it's interesting you say that he took it from the

[00:37:13] knowledge he got this techniques

[00:37:15] called the knowledge and he turned

[00:37:17] it into what he called a verb

[00:37:19] knowing okay it was a noun called

[00:37:21] the knowledge but putting a

[00:37:23] in front of it does make it a noun but

[00:37:25] the knowing itself is an I am

[00:37:27] you were like an ongoing living

[00:37:29] knowledge not like a solid ball so that

[00:37:31] was his twist got it

[00:37:33] it's a verb now it's a verb

[00:37:35] noun is what he's tried to make it

[00:37:37] title was a title

[00:37:39] right so everyone got the knowing but then

[00:37:42] a million I wasn't she wasn't quite ready

[00:37:44] and I just felt her

[00:37:46] deep inadequacy and how

[00:37:48] he used that and she stayed for

[00:37:50] so many more years to one day get the

[00:37:52] know it's just like what an asshole

[00:37:54] I was so mad and to have that pain

[00:37:57] that she talked about still be so active

[00:37:59] 1520 years later that's a PTSD trauma

[00:38:02] yes that how could someone who's supposed

[00:38:04] to be so you know aware and enlightened

[00:38:06] you know be so insensitive to everybody's

[00:38:08] true psyches their true developmental

[00:38:10] process you know what they need with

[00:38:12] them but this is her yeah she's been

[00:38:14] sad about that because it made her feel like

[00:38:16] she was rejected by you know everyone else

[00:38:18] is better than her forever forever right

[00:38:20] and I'm sure he did it in a very loving

[00:38:22] way so she couldn't feel

[00:38:24] like I would take that so personally too

[00:38:26] as I felt that pain but 17 years later

[00:38:28] when the group is falling apart then

[00:38:30] he said now I'm gonna give it to you

[00:38:32] now I'm gonna give it to you that is

[00:38:34] terrible yeah and then he goes he just

[00:38:36] threw it at her she was so every year

[00:38:38] even worse she's like wow I waited for this

[00:38:40] he treated me like that just to keep me

[00:38:42] like bound around his wing his finger right

[00:38:44] yeah that was that was terrible yeah

[00:38:46] so that's even insult to injury right

[00:38:48] absolutely I was actually curious so

[00:38:50] do you think that the hypnotherapy that he did

[00:38:52] was legitimate hypno because I do believe

[00:38:54] that hypnotherapy can be used as a good

[00:38:56] tool if you're trained properly do you think

[00:38:58] there was some good stuff in there at the beginning

[00:39:00] he did basic training back in the day and we all

[00:39:02] think he got his license back on like one of those

[00:39:04] ones that you get for quit smoking and he

[00:39:06] added his own like in thing to it

[00:39:08] but yeah you know he only probably

[00:39:10] trained a little bit never retrained

[00:39:12] never kept getting retrained never learned

[00:39:14] the new things we felt he was very limited

[00:39:16] after a while but yeah it was never

[00:39:18] the kind of hypnotherapy where I would

[00:39:20] be able to get up and not remember

[00:39:22] anything or become a chicken

[00:39:24] I've never done that I believe that

[00:39:26] for me I've never been able to become

[00:39:28] that you know I was always different

[00:39:30] type yeah that's different type I was always

[00:39:32] different type of hypnotherapy where you were always

[00:39:34] to be present and your mind gave you the journey

[00:39:36] yourself you know he kind of helped

[00:39:38] you it was always really lovely we all

[00:39:40] liked that was like the best part we all

[00:39:42] couldn't wait to get therapy you know

[00:39:44] to talk about our problems and he was a

[00:39:46] willing ear he loved to talk about him

[00:39:48] he loved to talk about it and helped help us

[00:39:50] so that was something that was helpful yeah

[00:39:52] I mean the cleansing sessions that seems

[00:39:54] quite similar to EM or explorations

[00:39:56] and meaning in nexium where we like

[00:39:58] looked at a past thing in your childhood

[00:40:00] and you know we like looked at it

[00:40:02] with a new data as they called it

[00:40:04] and since learn that's like basically therapy

[00:40:06] 101 yeah your mother didn't really

[00:40:08] hate you she was doing the best she could

[00:40:10] you know you just wouldn't stop pooping

[00:40:12] yeah well that was actually

[00:40:14] one of the questions like what if you knew

[00:40:16] then that that's she did it because she

[00:40:18] loved you you know yeah

[00:40:20] which is ultimately the arc of getting to

[00:40:22] know your parents afterwards

[00:40:24] and having hindsight you know I mean

[00:40:26] we all come to the awareness I think

[00:40:28] mom said to me I interviewed my mom's like

[00:40:30] well he just taught you to hate us I'm like

[00:40:32] well mommy didn't really teach us to hate

[00:40:34] you I mean he actually taught us to love

[00:40:36] you and to like you know it is not spending

[00:40:38] time with you you know

[00:40:40] just not to hang around you

[00:40:42] you could love them but also cut them out of

[00:40:44] your lives and shun them where do you

[00:40:46] think like the background of his knowledge

[00:40:48] you think he just like pulled from books

[00:40:50] he was a reader reader reader and

[00:40:52] he read Osho he read all of Osho's

[00:40:54] book I was gonna say

[00:40:56] there was a section

[00:40:58] in the novel in the

[00:41:00] movie with Osho because he would all

[00:41:02] read every morning night and day he'd outline it

[00:41:04] he'd have books that were covered in dust

[00:41:06] dust we had to put plastic

[00:41:08] covering so he could read his old books about

[00:41:10] Osho's books

[00:41:12] so he kind of if he would not allow

[00:41:14] us to read Osho because he was basically

[00:41:16] stealing his material and regurgitating

[00:41:18] it to us keeping

[00:41:20] certain things out just telling us what

[00:41:22] he wanted to tell us all the

[00:41:24] who ha's all the nature all the yes

[00:41:26] that's all Osho that's what I thought looking

[00:41:28] at it but then you'd also study books

[00:41:30] on acting class books that are

[00:41:32] you know different acting

[00:41:34] exercises he'd work it all in there so we

[00:41:36] were always exposing our ego and then

[00:41:38] having an exaltation type thing

[00:41:40] did you actually find some of the stuff

[00:41:42] that he stole I went and found

[00:41:44] some things and I some of it was like

[00:41:46] stolen verbatim you know I would watch

[00:41:48] him that he would talk for two and

[00:41:50] half hours or three hours sometimes like a

[00:41:52] passing I mean like he couldn't memorize

[00:41:54] there's there's jokes there's timing

[00:41:56] there's breaks everything leads to one

[00:41:58] thing it's like it's hilarious it's funny

[00:42:00] he jokes aren't easy to tell right

[00:42:02] you can tell a joke you can tell a joke with

[00:42:04] his broken English and it was funny

[00:42:06] I'm like where is he getting all this shit

[00:42:08] you know is it just coming through the

[00:42:10] universe or is he like copying somebody

[00:42:12] so that's a good question I think

[00:42:14] he was an actor he was trained to

[00:42:16] memorize so I think he memorized a lot of it

[00:42:18] jokes I know he memorized because those are hard

[00:42:20] jokes he just kind of like take it all in

[00:42:22] and and just regurgitate it did you

[00:42:24] ever see him planning this out yeah

[00:42:26] you did you know I never saw him memorizing

[00:42:28] no I had to be clear about that I never

[00:42:30] did it was a question I had up until the

[00:42:32] very end it wasn't until we were in

[00:42:34] Austin the last couple years

[00:42:36] he would give a big Christmas dinner

[00:42:38] it was the first time you'd see people

[00:42:40] and he would give a big the last

[00:42:42] supper message to everybody

[00:42:44] and I wasn't close to him at that point

[00:42:46] because I was such a rebellion he didn't

[00:42:48] have such a raised eyebrow

[00:42:50] and with everything he would do he would do

[00:42:52] a lot of things in private and he would

[00:42:54] go with Julie and the boy who did the

[00:42:56] fruit salads and help him memorize

[00:42:58] his hour long speech and my friend

[00:43:00] told me he goes oh he's in there memorizing

[00:43:02] I go is he really memorizing it

[00:43:04] he goes yeah

[00:43:06] and I've been right for 20 years and I

[00:43:08] didn't know he was memorizing it

[00:43:10] really hey a little bit culty

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[00:46:27] I was just looking at my notes

[00:46:29] make sure to miss anything and I wrote here

[00:46:31] same kind of therapeutic emotional release

[00:46:33] as Osho but Hipper and in the 80s

[00:46:35] yeah Osho came right before him

[00:46:37] we think he might have gone there

[00:46:39] but the whole thing with touching our forehead

[00:46:41] and putting his shot hits called Shakti

[00:46:43] like on our forehead

[00:46:45] I didn't know where that came from we all thought

[00:46:47] well he's enlightened he's doing this thing

[00:46:49] it wasn't until years later because we weren't allowed

[00:46:51] to watch Osho too much or read him

[00:46:53] when I started to make a movie

[00:46:55] and I started to put Osho in my film

[00:46:57] I saw Osho footage of him

[00:46:59] giving two people Shakti at once

[00:47:01] like touching their forehead two people

[00:47:03] and they're shaking and he's doing

[00:47:05] and I'm like oh my god Michelle saw that

[00:47:07] I can do that

[00:47:09] he was right

[00:47:11] what do you think was actually happening

[00:47:13] do you think people just want nothing

[00:47:15] I mean something's happening

[00:47:17] it's up to you

[00:47:19] nothing happened to me I just felt like I wasn't very open

[00:47:21] I'm so intellectual

[00:47:23] but sometimes I'd be like wow I was really blown away

[00:47:25] and I felt really peaceful

[00:47:27] the next day I felt overwhelmed with love

[00:47:29] for no reason and I would give some attribution to that

[00:47:31] I would say that's because of Shakti

[00:47:33] but really it's because I'm meditating all day

[00:47:35] you know I mean we kind of are that thing

[00:47:37] we are that chemical factor

[00:47:39] ourselves and I do believe

[00:47:41] there's like a tuning fork element to our lives

[00:47:43] like you know Nippy like if you were

[00:47:45] in a good mood you know you could hit your tuning

[00:47:47] fork and make Sarah in a better mood

[00:47:49] vibration can change things right

[00:47:51] I think that happens with people

[00:47:53] and I think that's kind of what we thought we were getting from him

[00:47:55] we were kind of vibing off each other

[00:47:57] yeah that makes sense but he took credit for it all

[00:47:59] like I

[00:48:01] for sure yeah yeah well I think

[00:48:03] I also have a key distinction between Osho

[00:48:05] and him is that

[00:48:07] Osho is also encouraging this release

[00:48:09] and free sex

[00:48:11] and that was part of the deal

[00:48:13] this seems like he wanted everyone to have this release

[00:48:15] but not the sex because he wanted

[00:48:17] to control that that's right

[00:48:19] it's even different than that

[00:48:21] let's say the narcissist will never ever go to jail

[00:48:23] because the narcissist will never get caught

[00:48:25] they don't want to go to jail so he was studying

[00:48:27] Osho's downfall

[00:48:29] Osho's downfall was all the rings

[00:48:31] all the rules, races

[00:48:33] all the sex

[00:48:35] all the people being so

[00:48:37] transparent

[00:48:39] we are not going to talk about sex

[00:48:41] we're not going to be transparent

[00:48:43] I don't want a lot of money and no one's going to know who I am

[00:48:45] so he took all of his teaching

[00:48:47] but he didn't he hid

[00:48:49] you were underground for six months right

[00:48:51] well I'm not underground

[00:48:53] well like you weren't around

[00:48:55] my question Will is

[00:48:57] the part that I'm interested in seeing these things

[00:48:59] kind of where I am and is now is

[00:49:01] at a certain point it is the emperor has no clothes

[00:49:03] and it seemed

[00:49:05] he was getting worse

[00:49:07] because you have 20 years of footage

[00:49:09] you could see like it was polished

[00:49:11] it was tighter in the beginning

[00:49:13] and then it started to crumble a little bit

[00:49:15] and I always wondered and I wondered this with Keith

[00:49:17] I wondered this with Jim Jones

[00:49:19] at a certain point it's obvious the emperor has no clothes

[00:49:21] at least to the viewer

[00:49:23] it's obvious to me too

[00:49:25] did he amp up? Yes

[00:49:27] because it makes things even more intense

[00:49:29] he amps up

[00:49:31] and he starts to increase his level of control

[00:49:33] increases

[00:49:35] I need to control this person

[00:49:37] not saying something to that person

[00:49:39] saying something to this person I need to control

[00:49:41] he started to control all of our lives in a much bigger way

[00:49:43] because I think he was losing control

[00:49:45] and we were all growing up

[00:49:47] too we're not supposed to be there for more than

[00:49:49] a couple years and something like that

[00:49:51] you know we were there all outgrew

[00:49:53] everything we were doing

[00:49:55] so he had to create new things, create new techniques

[00:49:57] here's the ascension

[00:49:59] now when I touch you you're going to smell something

[00:50:01] now you're like oh there's a whole new thing

[00:50:03] that you can't leave because I'm going to give you

[00:50:05] this new thing that I've discovered

[00:50:07] so he was creating his

[00:50:09] grandiosity or grandiosity

[00:50:11] more and more he had to keep reinventing himself

[00:50:13] to keep our attention

[00:50:15] it wasn't working for the older ones but it was working for the younger ones

[00:50:17] we've just been there for a little bit

[00:50:19] we're just coming in emperor's clothing is a great way

[00:50:21] of saying it

[00:50:23] Keith would release new curriculum

[00:50:25] just before we left people would ask

[00:50:27] how do we leave it was at one moment

[00:50:29] it was cumulative obviously like it does

[00:50:31] for everybody but one of the things that happened

[00:50:33] is that he introduced this university program

[00:50:35] he was like all these young people shouldn't go to university

[00:50:37] they should come to Albany and I'll teach

[00:50:39] basically everything you need for life

[00:50:41] in this university program and it was so expensive

[00:50:43] it was like wasn't it five grand a month Nip?

[00:50:45] five grand a month and you were doing

[00:50:47] like logic problems and geometry

[00:50:49] and shit like that

[00:50:51] and then you cobbled together

[00:50:53] thing of all the classes that already existed

[00:50:55] in ethos which was $300 a month

[00:50:57] but now it's university and like

[00:50:59] it's a commitment you're going to go up the straight path

[00:51:01] and I was as a salesperson I was supposed to sell it

[00:51:03] I didn't put anybody into it and I got shit for it

[00:51:05] we told people not to do it

[00:51:07] I told people not to do it like on the slide

[00:51:09] like on the DL like between you and I

[00:51:11] I would not spend five grand like go to actual university

[00:51:13] if you want to

[00:51:15] he was always trying to reinvent

[00:51:17] that was actually one of his downfalls

[00:51:19] he was trying to do these new companies

[00:51:21] and new like acting program

[00:51:23] and the ethical media program

[00:51:25] and the emotional bandwidth program

[00:51:27] what did he do with all this money though

[00:51:29] we don't even know

[00:51:31] none of it was in his name

[00:51:33] why was it so important for him to have more and more

[00:51:35] our teacher chose not to have money so important

[00:51:37] he came from a rich family

[00:51:39] so money really wasn't part of our spiritual

[00:51:41] didn't get mixed up in there

[00:51:43] it got mixed up in service

[00:51:45] and you give your time and your life

[00:51:47] I think that's how he secured service

[00:51:49] so if you were a student who really wanted to do

[00:51:51] the five grand a month thing

[00:51:53] you could come on an exchange

[00:51:55] and the exchange was labor

[00:51:57] so he threw out a curriculum that was

[00:51:59] half ass a lot of the times

[00:52:01] but in charge to high price

[00:52:03] because you are working off your five grand a month

[00:52:05] as a student up there

[00:52:07] you guys were way more accomplished than we were

[00:52:09] we were like 20 year olds

[00:52:11] we really didn't have a lot of money

[00:52:13] so he wasn't really able to milk us

[00:52:15] he didn't ask us for that kind of stuff

[00:52:17] we just didn't have that

[00:52:19] there is definitely a mixture of people in there

[00:52:21] that had a ton of money

[00:52:23] like people who were heiresses and billionaires

[00:52:25] when I started I was living in a basement suite

[00:52:27] I didn't have any money

[00:52:29] if you wanted to take training

[00:52:31] you were basically offered that opportunity

[00:52:33] like Nippy said it was an exchange program

[00:52:35] so in every training

[00:52:37] let's say there's 30 people paying six grand

[00:52:39] there'd be at least five or ten people

[00:52:41] running the training

[00:52:43] and zeroxing

[00:52:45] and taking it

[00:52:47] so he never paid staff

[00:52:49] well he may have paid the head trainer

[00:52:51] to teach it but the staff running it

[00:52:53] the people making it happen

[00:52:55] were there on exchange

[00:52:57] so they'd get the training for free

[00:52:59] they'd have to work the training

[00:53:01] be a participant of the training

[00:53:03] work their issues

[00:53:05] but then they would oh like

[00:53:07] then they'd have to then commit to doing that same thing

[00:53:09] that service or that exchange

[00:53:11] so they'd be training that they just

[00:53:13] it's so crazy because the hourly amount

[00:53:15] for the work was like 12 bucks an hour

[00:53:17] that's the crime right there

[00:53:19] it was brutal

[00:53:21] I mean the labor laws that Keith broke

[00:53:23] it's insane oh but it's an exchange

[00:53:25] you get something out of it

[00:53:27] you're learning how to be a coach

[00:53:29] you're learning how to blah blah blah

[00:53:31] which actually is a great segue

[00:53:33] I think I'm going to read you my little list

[00:53:35] of all the similarities

[00:53:37] if you don't mind

[00:53:39] and like it was so obvious

[00:53:41] well listen we'll have to tell you every guest

[00:53:43] we have in any type of cult

[00:53:45] there's certain cultic abuse things

[00:53:47] that are always the same right

[00:53:49] the love bombing, the isolation

[00:53:51] you know the creating a dependency

[00:53:53] all those things right but there was very specific

[00:53:55] things

[00:53:57] with Keith and do you call him Andreas or Michelle

[00:53:59] now in your mind

[00:54:01] that's a tough one

[00:54:03] we refer to him as Jaime, Jaime

[00:54:05] we like to go back to his given name

[00:54:07] I was going to say you got to go back there

[00:54:09] let's just go back to his given name

[00:54:11] he hates that too because he's like being like

[00:54:13] Jaime

[00:54:15] Jaime Gomez because it sounds kind of Mexican

[00:54:17] he's a little bit racist

[00:54:19] homophobic and racist yeah

[00:54:21] oh jeez that's a good combo

[00:54:23] a lot of people in next year we either call him

[00:54:25] Voldemort or Van Dush

[00:54:27] or Allen, his middle name is Allen

[00:54:29] Keith Allen Ranieri here's our list

[00:54:31] I'm just going to start with neither of them like fat people

[00:54:33] you get in shit

[00:54:35] you couldn't go up the stripe path

[00:54:37] there's one guy who was a four stripe coach

[00:54:39] when I came and a four stripe coach when I left

[00:54:41] 12 years later because he was obese

[00:54:43] drank too much coffee, lazy, satiative

[00:54:45] really good at the tech

[00:54:47] really good person, really like

[00:54:49] should have been a head trainer, should have been making

[00:54:51] a ton of money it was always broke because he was too

[00:54:53] fat to get promoted

[00:54:55] okay that's one, okay well I mean

[00:54:57] we already covered the secrecy like you can't tell anybody

[00:54:59] a lot of private relationships a lot of just like

[00:55:01] creating the honor of serving the master

[00:55:03] and we didn't use the word master

[00:55:05] privilege, we didn't use the word

[00:55:07] we used vanguard sir

[00:55:09] it was a privilege

[00:55:11] we call him by his name it wasn't until

[00:55:13] later that we started to

[00:55:15] actually use like guru

[00:55:17] maybe or master

[00:55:19] it was really uncomfortable

[00:55:21] well both of them would stand there and in their

[00:55:23] Keith called the sat sayings call them forums

[00:55:25] but he also did a similar thing that Haimi

[00:55:27] did of being like I'm not a guru

[00:55:29] I'm not a master please like I joke you

[00:55:31] like that sort of like this sort of

[00:55:33] fo humble you know

[00:55:35] the fo humble, the humble brag

[00:55:37] at the same time making sure all

[00:55:39] his needs are met by his minions

[00:55:41] and then having this the succession

[00:55:43] for Keith for Alan it was volleyball

[00:55:45] for Haimi it was ballet

[00:55:47] something that julie had said to me in our

[00:55:49] film he goes he lived like a millionaire

[00:55:51] and he goes he had people who

[00:55:53] washed his clothes did his food

[00:55:55] but julie was saying this to me I was thinking like

[00:55:57] I didn't understand what he meant like live like a

[00:55:59] millionaire like what's the benefit of that

[00:56:01] living like a millionaire not being a millionaire

[00:56:03] well now I understand you know

[00:56:05] I can't afford you know we all want to be able

[00:56:07] to afford chefs chauffeurs

[00:56:09] gardeners window washers

[00:56:11] tonel

[00:56:13] masseurs of course we all

[00:56:15] for us to afford that one we'd have to like

[00:56:17] have an amazing work and

[00:56:19] a lot of free hours and so he did

[00:56:21] he lived like that with no money

[00:56:23] exactly what you're talking about just from

[00:56:25] service but he lived like

[00:56:27] his lifestyle but never paid a dime

[00:56:29] right so maybe it's not even so much about

[00:56:31] the money he didn't abuse the money

[00:56:33] but he had all the perks

[00:56:35] yes it's another way of getting

[00:56:37] the lifestyle right

[00:56:39] smart smart yeah

[00:56:41] noted you have to be

[00:56:43] clever to do that yeah he was definitely

[00:56:45] very strategic and yeah I think we covered

[00:56:47] this already just the humiliation putting

[00:56:49] people in a situation to maintain the

[00:56:51] secrecy if you were to break secrecy

[00:56:53] will cause your own humiliation

[00:56:55] and it reminded me how after we had left

[00:56:57] he was hiding out in Mexico

[00:56:59] and he'd summoned basically the first line

[00:57:01] DOS members well it came out in the court

[00:57:03] transcripts through Lauren to be clear

[00:57:05] so this is what Lauren said as I understand

[00:57:07] it he was organizing

[00:57:09] a group below job session really

[00:57:11] yeah it's interesting to me after

[00:57:13] seeing the humiliation tactics yeah

[00:57:15] that he retreats to Mexico when one of

[00:57:17] the first thing he wants to do is have

[00:57:19] everyone recommit their vows and the way they

[00:57:21] have to do it is totally humiliate themselves

[00:57:23] oh my god that to me is the humiliation

[00:57:25] piece I was talking about earlier it's like

[00:57:27] you're not going to run from me after you

[00:57:29] just did this but also like logistically

[00:57:31] how do you get six people on

[00:57:33] one I don't

[00:57:35] take turns like how does that even work

[00:57:37] oh you take turns oh thank you will

[00:57:39] just look at Jaime right

[00:57:41] Jaime wasn't that ambitious

[00:57:43] early Jaime Gomez

[00:57:45] filmography might reveal

[00:57:47] that's true he had a few multiple

[00:57:49] counters speaking of which

[00:57:51] thank you for sending us that footage

[00:57:53] that didn't make it into the film

[00:57:55] I mean

[00:57:57] the porn that you included in the film was

[00:57:59] shocking enough but there's a lot of footage

[00:58:01] that didn't make it to the film I'm just curious

[00:58:03] how was that decided he was getting a work out

[00:58:05] and while he was having sex

[00:58:07] he was like oh yeah

[00:58:09] it's like multi-tasking

[00:58:11] I'm just gonna multi-task

[00:58:13] in all seriousness how did that footage

[00:58:15] separate from the porn which I can understand

[00:58:17] but there's a lot of really good footage

[00:58:19] that was even more damning on Jaime

[00:58:21] why was that cut

[00:58:23] or how why did that not make it into the film

[00:58:25] you sent me some links of like

[00:58:27] extra stuff about some of the things he had done

[00:58:29] how he had gone after his defectors

[00:58:31] and tried to harass people

[00:58:33] seeing him was fantastic and they let us keep the porn in

[00:58:35] even on their channel but

[00:58:37] there was a couple things they said that we had to take out

[00:58:39] that they thought that just he could fight it

[00:58:41] he could fight and that was the letter

[00:58:43] there were things in the letter

[00:58:45] even though I sent up the letter because I had a good lawyer

[00:58:47] I mean theoretically I was following my lawyer

[00:58:49] I was following my lawyer's advice

[00:58:51] I was learning what I was doing

[00:58:53] and he says you know the letter was

[00:58:55] this letter came out stating

[00:58:57] accusing him

[00:58:59] of these things

[00:59:01] and these were the accusations

[00:59:03] he did do tax evasion but we were accusing him

[00:59:05] of tax evasion

[00:59:07] of having a felony record for hustling

[00:59:09] well we couldn't

[00:59:11] the scene that said well do you have proof on that

[00:59:13] or like no all that stuff has been reversed

[00:59:15] he goes well we really can't say it

[00:59:17] but the whole letter is like

[00:59:19] this letter came out and confused us because

[00:59:21] this person was saying we didn't know what was true or not

[00:59:23] it's part of the story like we didn't know what was true

[00:59:25] yeah they go well that's probably better if you can

[00:59:27] if you don't have proof of it you really can't say it

[00:59:29] and the other thing was there was a moment with my sister

[00:59:31] Sarah, Ameliana is my sister

[00:59:33] right I forgot that yes Ameliana is your sister

[00:59:35] yeah yeah yeah

[00:59:37] at the end of the last act in the third act

[00:59:39] she was given the knowing finally

[00:59:41] which was finally given the knowing after 20 years

[00:59:43] people are trying to hurt me

[00:59:45] people are trying to hurt your master

[00:59:47] and you need to stop them

[00:59:49] you need to make them go away

[00:59:51] and she goes and I mean he meant have them killed

[00:59:53] she goes I mean he meant have them killed

[00:59:55] she said it twice and they made us take out one of those

[00:59:57] they go you can't say what

[00:59:59] he meant

[01:00:01] you can't say what he meant

[01:00:03] so she goes he just say what he said

[01:00:05] and she can't say

[01:00:07] and I mean I guarantee you he meant

[01:00:09] have them killed so we took out the second one

[01:00:11] no no

[01:00:13] I go that's all we have

[01:00:15] it's like no we have to get out

[01:00:17] it still had the punch

[01:00:19] absolutely did

[01:00:21] and just to wrap up my list the other two things

[01:00:23] that were just to go back to that for a second

[01:00:25] is the abortions

[01:00:27] Keith instructed many abortions

[01:00:29] I mean I wept deeply at the end of your film

[01:00:31] specifically for the women

[01:00:33] who lost that opportunity because of this

[01:00:35] Jaime

[01:00:37] it's such a dessert

[01:00:39] so terrible what he did

[01:00:41] toy selfish toy selfish because

[01:00:43] it wasn't for their spiritual growth

[01:00:45] it wasn't that they weren't meant to be mothers

[01:00:47] or have this amazing divine experience

[01:00:49] raising two or three children

[01:00:51] that might have been in their cards

[01:00:53] he got in the way because

[01:00:55] children would have looked bad for him

[01:00:57] basically all about him

[01:00:59] it was just all about him

[01:01:01] so all the guidance he gave us for our lives

[01:01:03] were about him like what's going to keep me safe

[01:01:05] what's going to work for me what's not going to

[01:01:07] we can't have children here

[01:01:09] you don't need children

[01:01:11] and so wrong too like my spiritual growth

[01:01:13] has been the most

[01:01:15] heightened because of my children

[01:01:17] what a beautiful

[01:01:19] magnificent gift that I've had

[01:01:21] because basically I'm going to be presumptuous

[01:01:23] but you know tell me if it's true

[01:01:25] because I don't have kids but you know you get that unconditional love

[01:01:27] it's unconditional from you

[01:01:29] and that's kind of what we were

[01:01:31] manufacturing with him was like oh

[01:01:33] we love our guru unconditionally

[01:01:35] he wants you to love him like a child

[01:01:37] like you would a baby

[01:01:39] children would interfere with that love

[01:01:41] because they would take it away from him

[01:01:43] and they would put on a child where it should go

[01:01:45] well and you also start to experience for real

[01:01:47] what he's hypothetically telling you

[01:01:49] your experiencing

[01:01:51] you just reminded me that Keith actually taught us

[01:01:53] that unconditional love did not

[01:01:55] that that's actually unhealthy

[01:01:57] that you need to have conditions on love

[01:01:59] because otherwise if you have that with children

[01:02:01] it'll take away from holding them accountable

[01:02:03] maybe like there was a whole fucked up

[01:02:05] well the idea was his love is earned

[01:02:07] well those are two different things

[01:02:09] those are two different things though

[01:02:11] because we're all here breathing

[01:02:13] probably unconditionally

[01:02:15] so I mean we haven't really earned it

[01:02:17] let's see how steep goes with that one

[01:02:19] and the other similarity with many spiritual teachers

[01:02:21] is of course the eye gazing

[01:02:23] deep deep deep eye gazing

[01:02:25] I don't know if you remember the eye gazing

[01:02:27] in the vow where Keith meets Allison

[01:02:29] and stares deep into her eyes

[01:02:31] and she like dissolves

[01:02:33] oh yeah we've had a lot of experiences

[01:02:35] do you want to hear something you might not know

[01:02:37] I learned about our boundaries

[01:02:39] because I didn't know what boundaries were until my first relationship

[01:02:41] I was with a trauma specialist

[01:02:43] I was at his yoga retreat

[01:02:45] we were learning about boundaries

[01:02:47] and I was like what are boundaries

[01:02:49] he goes oh my god will

[01:02:51] boundaries

[01:02:53] so boundaries are first of all our space here

[01:02:55] these kind of boundaries

[01:02:57] so something else I read since that

[01:02:59] I've learned how to say no

[01:03:01] if something doesn't feel right

[01:03:03] is our eyes are

[01:03:05] our first line of

[01:03:07] defense or our first boundary

[01:03:09] is our eyes so

[01:03:11] when you're in the grocery store and you look at someone

[01:03:13] and you go hi and they look at you

[01:03:15] if they look down that's them saying

[01:03:17] I don't want you in me

[01:03:19] this is my boundary

[01:03:21] I'm not looking at you I'm not inviting you in

[01:03:23] I'm not saying hello to you I'm not whatever

[01:03:25] it's like I'm boundary your eyes

[01:03:27] to release that guard

[01:03:29] any of us and to let that come in

[01:03:31] you're really

[01:03:33] breaking all boundaries I mean you're letting go of all boundaries

[01:03:35] it's a huge thing you do with your

[01:03:37] lover you do with people you love

[01:03:39] you do with people you trust

[01:03:41] perhaps you know you do with people who you're in a relationship with

[01:03:43] you know that you're welcome

[01:03:45] but to do it with strangers

[01:03:47] and do it all the time and expect you're supposed to be like that all the time

[01:03:49] is like really

[01:03:51] well I think Steve was right like love with some conditions there

[01:03:53] imagine yourself

[01:03:55] walking into a forest

[01:03:57] you can see the path

[01:03:59] and the trees

[01:04:01] high above you

[01:04:03] the air is crisp you are walking towards your happy place

[01:04:05] allegedly

[01:04:07] say it with me

[01:04:09] anything said here on this podcast

[01:04:11] about alleged cults

[01:04:13] alleged MLM schemes

[01:04:15] alleged douchebaggery

[01:04:17] mindfuckery, criminality, spiritual fraud

[01:04:19] or the like

[01:04:21] is offered purely as commentary

[01:04:23] views and opinions expressed on a little bit culty

[01:04:25] do not necessarily reflect

[01:04:27] on official policy

[01:04:29] or position of the podcast

[01:04:31] and any content provided by our

[01:04:33] guests, bloggers

[01:04:35] sponsors or authors are their opinion

[01:04:37] and are not intended to

[01:04:39] malign any religion, group

[01:04:41] club, organization

[01:04:43] business individual, anyone

[01:04:45] or anything so just let these words

[01:04:47] drift into your mind without needing to

[01:04:49] focus on any of them

[01:04:51] you are great

[01:04:53] you are capable

[01:04:55] you deserve to be happy

[01:04:57] nobody's mad at you

[01:04:59] unless you're actually a narcissistic

[01:05:01] culty criminal

[01:05:03] if that's you cut that shit out

[01:05:05] don't be a fuckwad

[01:05:07] but if that's not you

[01:05:09] again, you are great

[01:05:11] you are capable

[01:05:13] you deserve to be happy

[01:05:19] a little bit culty loves you

[01:05:21] so that was part one

[01:05:23] launching part two

[01:05:25] before we do again happy birthday from

[01:05:27] me, Nip and from all of our listeners

[01:05:29] please share our birthday word salad

[01:05:31] yes thanks everyone for the birthday shout outs

[01:05:33] it was unexpected

[01:05:35] and really great to get

[01:05:37] Erica Mack 18 with the birthday word salad

[01:05:43] it's interesting a birthday should not

[01:05:45] signify our birth but yet

[01:05:47] the light that our energy has given to this earth

[01:05:49] we are born in a sense of clarity

[01:05:51] yet suffer in the process

[01:05:53] is not the truth but could be something

[01:05:55] more specific to that truth

[01:05:57] and the joy that's embedded in the idea

[01:05:59] we created for ourselves

[01:06:01] thank you, Erica Mack 18

[01:06:03] so good, Erica Mack

[01:06:05] that's so sweet of you

[01:06:07] we love our listeners

[01:06:09] love the interaction

[01:06:11] would you say this is a healthy community

[01:06:13] that we're building?

[01:06:15] careful Sarah

[01:06:17] let's talk to Will on part two

[01:06:19] see what he thinks about it

[01:06:21] see you soon, see you next time

[01:06:51] questions or questions on upcoming topics

[01:06:53] find us on Instagram at

[01:06:55] a little bit culty

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[01:07:35] a little bit culty is executive produced by me

[01:07:37] your co-host Sarah Edmondson

[01:07:39] and Anthony Nipi Ames

[01:07:41] that's me

[01:07:43] Associate producer is Jess Tardy

[01:07:45] produced, edited, mixed and mastered

[01:07:47] by citizens of sound

[01:07:49] our amazing theme song

[01:07:51] cultivated is by John Bryant

[01:07:53] and co-written by Nigel Asselin

[01:07:55] I'm Sarah Edmondson and thanks for listening to

[01:07:57] a little bit culty