Holy Hell: Will Allen on Unmasking Buddhafield (Part 2)

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass, North. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit.

[00:00:14] North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

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[00:00:47] Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first

[00:01:02] goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:06] And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy.

[00:01:09] Sarah and I met on love in a quote self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult, called Nexium.

[00:01:16] Heard of it? We got out of there together and on our way out, we helped shut it down.

[00:01:21] Our journey as Nexium whistleblowers was captured in detail in a docu-series called The Vow on HBO

[00:01:26] and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:29] New York Times, babe.

[00:01:30] Right.

[00:01:31] Have you heard of it?

[00:01:32] Each week on A Little Bit Culty, we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers

[00:01:36] plus experts in things like cultic abuse and coercive control.

[00:01:40] We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians with wisdom to share on recovering from everything

[00:01:45] from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances with raging narcissists.

[00:01:49] There's always something to learn about the cultiverse.

[00:01:52] Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode of A Little Bit Culty dot com.

[00:02:13] Welcome back everybody. Thank you for joining us.

[00:02:17] Part two with our chat with Will Allen, the director of Holy Hell, a documentary that chronicles the culty-culty world of

[00:02:25] Boudha Field. And if you didn't listen to part one yet, you're going to want to back on up and do that before

[00:02:31] you listen to this episode. And if you haven't seen Holy Hell yet and you like homework, which seems like

[00:02:37] our listeners like the homework, we'll give you a gold star or a scratch and sniff sticker for watching

[00:02:43] Holy Hell as a companion piece to these episodes. Not really though, it'll be like a pretend gold star,

[00:02:48] scratch and sniff sticker, but visualize it in your mind.

[00:02:51] A like button is good enough, don't you think?

[00:02:53] A like button, yeah, just like it. Like, subscribe and share. Give us a review.

[00:02:57] But no, in all seriousness, one thing I really loved about Boudha Field is I really did feel

[00:03:02] similarly to the vow it really showed, I think, what drew people in, what was good and magical about it.

[00:03:07] And this week, I forget how it came up. Oh, I know why. Jess called me from Walmart and she was,

[00:03:12] you know, just chatting with me and saying, oh, I'm in Walmart.

[00:03:15] Walmart?

[00:03:16] Yeah. And all of a sudden, like this happens a lot, right? Where her memory comes back from our time in

[00:03:20] Nexium, which is largely like there's just these big blocks of like, I don't know what I was doing

[00:03:24] for two to three years. And it reminded me of that field trip we took to Walmart. Do you remember?

[00:03:29] I do.

[00:03:30] So this was for a program called The Source. It was an acting program that was mostly just

[00:03:36] Oh, shit. Love me.

[00:03:38] Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[00:03:39] Having fun, sir.

[00:03:40] It was just a regurgitated like different exercises from other, like, I mean, I have my BFA also known as

[00:03:47] a bachelor, fuck all in theater performance and I've been in acting classes for like two decades.

[00:03:51] So a lot of it was just regurgitated things pulled from other places.

[00:03:54] But one exercise that was actually really fun and hard was that we were doing this thing called

[00:03:59] the anti-face or the anti-face where like that you take your tendency, like my tendency is

[00:04:04] I'm very smiley and very personable. I like to connect. So I had to do the sort of the opposite of that

[00:04:09] and build a character instead of being like this happy person that I am.

[00:04:13] I had to take the antithesis of that, which was this sort of like grumpy bitchy, like shut down emotionally

[00:04:19] and then you had to go into...

[00:04:21] So basically me.

[00:04:22] You had to do me.

[00:04:23] We had to...

[00:04:27] Yes, well, this is the irony.

[00:04:29] So I had to walk into Walmart. I had to buy something. So I was looking for earplugs and I walked in.

[00:04:34] We could wish the listeners could see my face, but I had this like total frown on my face

[00:04:38] and was like, where's the earplugs? Where would I find the earplugs?

[00:04:41] Versus like if it was me, I'd be like, oh, excuse me.

[00:04:43] Do you mind telling me which aisle I'd find the earplugs?

[00:04:45] Like that's just probably to an like a fault, like I'm annoyingly positive, right?

[00:04:51] Even to the point where I was trying to do my anti-face and then afterwards I'd be like,

[00:04:54] I'm so sorry. I'm not being rude, but like I'm just doing an acting exercise

[00:04:56] and I'm actually really a nice person.

[00:05:00] And then I'd like walk around Walmart.

[00:05:02] We were there for at least an hour and I passed Nippy and he was walking up and down the aisles,

[00:05:07] like bouncing like with a total spring in his step, not his normal pelvis forward,

[00:05:12] cock shirt, you know, I'm a football player guy.

[00:05:18] And he was bouncing up and down with a spring in his step like Ned Flanders

[00:05:23] and just being like, hi everybody. Hi. How are you?

[00:05:26] Having a good day? Finding what you're looking for?

[00:05:28] It's just like really bright eyes and super perky.

[00:05:31] And then afterwards I was like, listen, I'm really not a nice person.

[00:05:35] I'm a curmudgeoning asshole.

[00:05:39] Where the fuck are the tube stocks?

[00:05:41] That was an exercise that I thought was like really interesting and kind of fun.

[00:05:45] Yeah, we laughed.

[00:05:47] We laughed and I think it sort of pointed out how we rely on certain, you know,

[00:05:51] physical traits about ourselves to maneuver in the world.

[00:05:55] So that was the awareness we got from that exercise

[00:05:57] and I hope that brings you awareness too.

[00:05:59] All right, I'm going to keep on trucking here.

[00:06:01] Oh, quick tangent.

[00:06:02] Nippy and I love seeing how you guys like to listen to a little bit culty

[00:06:07] while doing other things.

[00:06:08] And many of you have put in your stories,

[00:06:10] you living your life, folding laundry, working out,

[00:06:13] painting incredible works of art with a little bit culty in the background.

[00:06:17] So we thought we'd do a little contest.

[00:06:19] Please share you living your life and here's the deal.

[00:06:23] We have a very special gift for you.

[00:06:25] See what happened was I'm packing up, moving for this trip to Atlanta

[00:06:28] and I found a big bag of beautiful V-week shirts.

[00:06:31] Those are the t-shirts that we got during Vanguard Week over the years.

[00:06:36] And I don't think I want to bring those to Atlanta.

[00:06:39] They just don't pass the Marie Kondo test for me.

[00:06:41] They do not spark joy.

[00:06:43] But for those hardcore Anexian fans out there,

[00:06:46] maybe they spark joy for you.

[00:06:48] So we are going to run a little contest on a little bit culty Instagram.

[00:06:52] Please tag us in your stories listening to a little bit culty

[00:06:55] and we will give all the t-shirts away to those who post the best videos.

[00:07:00] Cannot wait to see what you come up with.

[00:07:02] I really hope that you enjoy these t-shirts.

[00:07:04] They certainly are stunning.

[00:07:06] There's a beautiful array of colors and you don't have to wear it.

[00:07:09] You could even burn it or just put it in your NXIM collection.

[00:07:13] You'd be surprised.

[00:07:14] This is truly historical items.

[00:07:17] In fact, there's a real desire in the museum community.

[00:07:22] There's going to be a collection of NXIM and other cult related historical items

[00:07:27] from other cults in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee at Alcatraz East

[00:07:31] including the original New York Times article, some t-shirts, some photographs.

[00:07:38] So there is a real desire for these items

[00:07:41] but they can be yours, dear listeners.

[00:07:43] So send us your stories, show us how you like to listen to a little bit culty

[00:07:47] and a V-week t-shirt from 2005 to 2016 can be yours.

[00:07:52] Yes guys, dreams do come true.

[00:07:54] Can't wait to see what you put together.

[00:07:56] On that note, part two, Will Allen.

[00:07:58] Reminder, we do care about your well-being.

[00:08:01] Again, if you or anyone you know needs support, please go to our show notes

[00:08:05] and we've included many resources to help you.

[00:08:07] All right, keep on truckin'.

[00:08:09] Keep on truckin', sister.

[00:08:10] Part two of our chat with Will Allen.

[00:08:13] Will you say it in your Ned Flanders way?

[00:08:15] Okay, keep on truckin'.

[00:08:16] Here's part two of our chat with Will Allen.

[00:08:42] Just like the game of hide and seek, the secrets in the silence.

[00:08:50] When you scream,

[00:08:52] Sinking down to the depths of the ocean.

[00:09:02] Nipi, remember when we were doing the prenatal classes together?

[00:09:05] I was pregnant with Ace.

[00:09:06] Yeah, we were not trying to stay.

[00:09:07] I just think it's funny but wait, they put us under that blanket

[00:09:10] and we're supposed to stare at each other.

[00:09:12] They called it the hot box of love.

[00:09:14] We were just staring at each other and it was very loving.

[00:09:17] It was intense and I loved it because I'm always like,

[00:09:19] let's connect.

[00:09:20] It's confronting because anything that's in there,

[00:09:24] especially when this guy, anyone, if you don't want someone looking

[00:09:26] and they think they see everything, it gets very confronting.

[00:09:28] Yeah, but that's something you can do with your partner

[00:09:30] is you can go under a blanket and create the hot box of love.

[00:09:34] But you shouldn't do that with a teacher.

[00:09:37] At a volleyball game.

[00:09:38] At a volleyball game or in a ballet class

[00:09:40] or at a yoga retreat or anywhere.

[00:09:43] So yes, boundaries and I think we're actually going to do

[00:09:45] a whole episode on boundaries down the road.

[00:09:48] A lot of my stuff will and kind of unpacking the whole thing

[00:09:51] and what happened is is resetting my boundaries.

[00:09:53] How did you learn what your boundaries were?

[00:09:55] I said a couple episodes that you don't know how much pain

[00:09:57] you're in until you're out of it.

[00:09:59] You don't know how your boundaries have been crossed

[00:10:02] until you kind of reclaimed them.

[00:10:03] Even just taking the five day and being open and vulnerable

[00:10:07] is like what's going on with me.

[00:10:08] And trusting that since the beginning is something that

[00:10:11] instinctively I was like, I'm not sure if I should do this

[00:10:14] but I trust this group.

[00:10:15] I can do this.

[00:10:16] I have kind of just been like, I'm not really going to do stuff

[00:10:19] like that anymore.

[00:10:20] You need to demonstrate to me first how much I'm going to

[00:10:23] share with you is kind of where I am as opposed

[00:10:25] to leading that in a lot of ways.

[00:10:27] And that's kind of where I am now and maybe that'll

[00:10:29] change, but I just feel more comfortable dipping my

[00:10:31] toe in getting more intel.

[00:10:33] We're not supposed to do anything we're not really

[00:10:34] comfortable with.

[00:10:35] And even me making a movie or Sarah and you guys coming out

[00:10:38] that never should happen until you're really ready for that

[00:10:40] to happen.

[00:10:41] And so you're never late.

[00:10:42] You're never late coming to it either.

[00:10:44] It's like, it'll come when you're coming.

[00:10:46] But you are kind of going there with yourself

[00:10:48] and you kind of guide yourself.

[00:10:49] Yeah.

[00:10:50] But the comfort thing is so key.

[00:10:51] Like you said, like learning to say no if something

[00:10:53] doesn't feel right.

[00:10:54] That got undermined with us right from the beginning

[00:10:56] because we were taught that feeling meant that we

[00:10:58] were growing, right?

[00:10:59] And that we had to embrace the discomfort.

[00:11:01] In fact, comfort was the enemy in next year.

[00:11:04] We were like, be some, if someone shows comfort over

[00:11:07] their growth, they were weak.

[00:11:09] They were not ready to grow for the straight path.

[00:11:12] It was like comfort.

[00:11:13] Like, oh, Sarah's choosing comfort, you know,

[00:11:15] wills bear very comfortable right now.

[00:11:17] Like, oh, yeah, sleep.

[00:11:18] Sleep.

[00:11:19] That is a boundary for me is setting what I need to

[00:11:22] be okay to be comfortable and to say no,

[00:11:24] if I don't want to do something.

[00:11:25] You know, you know what else I learned?

[00:11:27] And this is something funny.

[00:11:28] I think you might enjoy it.

[00:11:29] But, you know, here we were all of us in our group,

[00:11:32] always giving each other sat saying, which is like,

[00:11:34] if you're in your mind or you're having a hard time,

[00:11:36] well, it's okay.

[00:11:37] It'll go away.

[00:11:38] Just meditate.

[00:11:39] Stay here tomorrow's better day.

[00:11:40] You know, this is all part of the process.

[00:11:42] Okay.

[00:11:43] We kept each other there forever.

[00:11:44] We all kept each other there every time you wanted to

[00:11:46] go, every time a red flag came up.

[00:11:47] No, no, no, you're fine.

[00:11:49] You're fine.

[00:11:50] You're fine.

[00:11:51] So here we are.

[00:11:52] The group blows up.

[00:11:53] We're all misguided, misdirected.

[00:11:54] We're all lost, came out of it.

[00:11:55] And me and my best friends, you know,

[00:11:57] I went around the world.

[00:11:58] I did whatever I wanted to do.

[00:12:00] I wasn't asking permission, you know?

[00:12:02] But when it came down to all of my friends,

[00:12:04] we all looked at each other and said,

[00:12:05] we are not telling each other what to do.

[00:12:07] We are not giving unwanted advice.

[00:12:10] If you want advice about what you want to do,

[00:12:12] call me.

[00:12:13] I would love to talk to you about it.

[00:12:14] I am not offering you free advice.

[00:12:16] That's all we ever did is what friends do is they give

[00:12:18] you free advice, but you really,

[00:12:21] really shouldn't be giving each other advice.

[00:12:23] We all have to have permission to explore.

[00:12:26] That's the only permission we really need.

[00:12:28] And so we kind of freed ourselves up from it.

[00:12:30] Like, oh, I can't believe what you're doing and how that's

[00:12:32] not spiritual.

[00:12:33] Oh my God.

[00:12:34] What?

[00:12:35] We just said no, no, no, no, no.

[00:12:37] Yes.

[00:12:38] That's great.

[00:12:39] It's great.

[00:12:40] You guys established that boundary right away.

[00:12:41] That's a good reminder.

[00:12:42] And also I'll use this opportunity to apologize to any

[00:12:44] of my friends out there who I coached when all

[00:12:47] they wanted was someone to listen.

[00:12:49] So Nipi and I have certainly had to like,

[00:12:52] I'd be like, wait, do you want me just to listen

[00:12:54] or do you want advice?

[00:12:56] And I have to do that all the time because I would

[00:12:58] instantly go into coach mode.

[00:13:00] Let me help you.

[00:13:01] Let me come up with options and let's figure out how,

[00:13:03] you know, how you cause this and how you're going to fix it.

[00:13:06] Solve it.

[00:13:07] Yeah.

[00:13:08] So that's a really good reminder.

[00:13:09] And how else would you say like,

[00:13:11] have you been healing and what kind of advice

[00:13:13] would you give to people?

[00:13:15] I imagine this is how it is for everyone is you must

[00:13:17] throw the bath water out, you know,

[00:13:20] or the baby out.

[00:13:21] Yes.

[00:13:22] And that's hard.

[00:13:23] It's hard to do without throwing all of the water out, right?

[00:13:26] So I think I threw all the water out and I wanted to start over

[00:13:29] and I went to really explore what was real,

[00:13:31] what wasn't real, what was mine, what wasn't mine.

[00:13:33] What do I feel?

[00:13:34] You know, when I got out of the group originally

[00:13:36] at the first week or two when I was in LA in Hawaii,

[00:13:39] I really felt a sense of like,

[00:13:40] I can do anything I want to do now with my life

[00:13:43] and I hadn't a clue.

[00:13:44] I didn't know what I felt.

[00:13:46] I didn't know what was important to me.

[00:13:48] I'd given so many desires up.

[00:13:50] I'd given so many dreams up.

[00:13:52] I'd disqualified so many of my thoughts and my feelings.

[00:13:56] You know, I've been undermined so long.

[00:13:58] I didn't know and I thought,

[00:14:00] well, Will, you're just going to figure it out.

[00:14:02] You're going to go and try things and you're going to learn

[00:14:05] what you like and what you don't like.

[00:14:06] And that's what I'm doing still.

[00:14:08] That's amazing.

[00:14:09] I think we're all doing it.

[00:14:11] Yeah.

[00:14:12] And so we have self-discovery.

[00:14:14] If I find something I don't like, I don't do it again.

[00:14:16] You know, whatever.

[00:14:18] That's so key.

[00:14:19] I don't know if it's been as useful for you as it is for us,

[00:14:23] but like even just meeting you five years ago

[00:14:25] or four years ago when we first got out in LA

[00:14:27] thanks to Mark Vicente who introduced us.

[00:14:29] Which I want to get into at some point.

[00:14:31] I have a picture with us.

[00:14:32] Yes.

[00:14:33] Can you send that to me?

[00:14:34] I'd love to post it when we do this episode.

[00:14:35] You don't have to do it now,

[00:14:36] but it was just so meaningful for me to...

[00:14:38] I don't think you were there nippy, right?

[00:14:40] Like I had gone by myself to shoot something

[00:14:42] and just, you know, meeting you.

[00:14:44] We're in Venice.

[00:14:45] Yeah, we're in Venice just to feel like

[00:14:47] that we weren't alone.

[00:14:48] Because I think your film was really the beginning

[00:14:51] of a whole slew of what we now call

[00:14:53] the Golden Age of Cult Awareness, right?

[00:14:55] Because it was so well received

[00:14:57] and the people were punished for their experience.

[00:14:59] That was so important.

[00:15:00] It was so important.

[00:15:01] And the people weren't like looked at as crazy

[00:15:04] and whatever for getting involved in the first place.

[00:15:07] It was like, it really honored that human experience.

[00:15:09] But I just felt so good to connect with you

[00:15:11] and to feel like, you know,

[00:15:13] that we weren't alone.

[00:15:14] You understood.

[00:15:15] Understood, yeah.

[00:15:16] You were right in the middle of all that media blitz.

[00:15:18] Right.

[00:15:19] You were right in the middle of it.

[00:15:20] Yes, yes.

[00:15:22] It just come out New York Times and everything.

[00:15:24] Yes, I don't think that...

[00:15:25] And the vow hadn't come out yet.

[00:15:26] No, you hadn't made it yet.

[00:15:27] No.

[00:15:28] You were just starting.

[00:15:29] Yeah, well, you had a question about Mark V and Nip.

[00:15:30] Well, no, this is actually going there.

[00:15:32] How'd you guys connect?

[00:15:33] And then what was it like hearing Mark's story

[00:15:35] and then how were you able to guide him?

[00:15:37] And, you know...

[00:15:38] I'm not gonna say anything Mark hasn't said,

[00:15:40] but he found my film, you know, independently.

[00:15:42] He wasn't...

[00:15:43] He remember saying like,

[00:15:44] I don't think I want to watch a movie about this,

[00:15:45] but he started watching it.

[00:15:46] It's like, oh my God, this is us.

[00:15:47] This is us.

[00:15:48] This is us.

[00:15:49] Oh my God.

[00:15:50] So he had the kind of revelation,

[00:15:51] like this is what I'm experiencing.

[00:15:53] And he saw our resolve with it and he found me.

[00:15:56] He was at a party and he met my producer.

[00:15:59] Her name is Allie Jones.

[00:16:01] She's amazing.

[00:16:02] And she was my producer.

[00:16:03] Get it all out there.

[00:16:04] They met each other and they knew each other.

[00:16:06] And so he's like, I've got to talk to you.

[00:16:07] So I was working on the Leah Remini show.

[00:16:09] I was doing the second season of cutting, helping cut.

[00:16:11] Oh, wow.

[00:16:12] And then he came by my office or came by where they were over in Burbank.

[00:16:15] And I came out and I met him and Bonnie and one other person.

[00:16:18] And they just told me what happened.

[00:16:20] They told me they tried to download exactly what happened.

[00:16:23] And they're like, you know, he talked about what the bleep.

[00:16:26] And I knew that movie of course, because I had your role.

[00:16:29] I was like filming like you were filming.

[00:16:31] And I was filming like you were filming.

[00:16:32] And I was making him important.

[00:16:33] Like you were making him important.

[00:16:34] And you know, I want to talk about this.

[00:16:36] I want to...

[00:16:37] There's people still in it.

[00:16:38] And he has kind of brought the whole thing to me.

[00:16:40] I'm talking to you.

[00:16:41] He's afraid right now because I'm talking to you, you know?

[00:16:44] So you guys were all still in the middle of it.

[00:16:46] You know, they were...

[00:16:47] It was all hiding and nothing had been exposed yet.

[00:16:49] Oh, wow.

[00:16:50] And when he told you what he told you, did you immediately know like what you were looking at, what he was saying?

[00:16:56] Well, I didn't.

[00:16:57] I didn't.

[00:16:58] Because first he said it was a BS and...

[00:16:59] BS and D, how do you say it?

[00:17:01] BDSM.

[00:17:02] Thank you.

[00:17:03] He goes, I got into a BDSM call.

[00:17:04] I was like, okay.

[00:17:05] That was his first kind of definition.

[00:17:06] And women were abused.

[00:17:08] And then he did pull me aside.

[00:17:09] This is all like within 20 minutes.

[00:17:11] And he's like...

[00:17:12] And he goes, you know, how did you talk about this without people just thinking, you know,

[00:17:16] you were like crazy?

[00:17:17] Like, you know, why'd you do this?

[00:17:19] And I go, oh, why did you do this?

[00:17:22] I mean, you know, you were...

[00:17:23] Right.

[00:17:24] I was 20.

[00:17:25] You were 35.

[00:17:26] I was looking for God.

[00:17:27] You were going for something completely different.

[00:17:29] You have to wrap your head around why did you do that and what was that for you?

[00:17:33] Totally different from me.

[00:17:34] I mean, I was like...

[00:17:35] I felt like we were really dumb, naive and kind of like swept into this loving thing.

[00:17:39] You were going after something a little different.

[00:17:42] I go, how did you get into it?

[00:17:45] You know, I just...

[00:17:46] It was almost exactly the same because I was just the age difference.

[00:17:49] He was successful already.

[00:17:50] You know, we weren't really in our success yet.

[00:17:53] We were young kids.

[00:17:54] Great question.

[00:17:55] Yeah.

[00:17:56] I think what I'm trying to say is like we could get away with being forgiven a little

[00:17:59] bit easier, like our dissidents than maybe if we were all like in our 40s doing it.

[00:18:04] Although some of us were in our 40s doing it in 50s.

[00:18:07] I'm just saying that was my only difference is like, well, I mean, nothing wrong with

[00:18:11] what you did, but you just have to figure out how you got into it.

[00:18:14] Yeah.

[00:18:15] Which is I think part of what we all have had to do is like, what were we looking

[00:18:18] for?

[00:18:19] Which is where the knowledge is too.

[00:18:20] It is.

[00:18:21] It's not the same for everyone.

[00:18:22] It's not.

[00:18:23] I thought it was.

[00:18:24] I thought we were all there in our group for the same thing.

[00:18:26] But it's the same as that it's fulfilling a value or fulfilling a purpose for

[00:18:30] everybody or in some cases, gaining some or in some cases like a void.

[00:18:34] Like if you didn't have a family growing up and then you come into this and you're

[00:18:38] like, oh my God, this is the family I've always wanted or feeling like an outsider

[00:18:41] and then you're feeling accepted.

[00:18:42] And those things are so powerful to family feeling because even though I know we

[00:18:46] kind of say that lightly, but when I got into this group literally like a day

[00:18:49] after my mother was hysterical, it was so lovely to be around non-judging

[00:18:54] people who eventually we would tell everything.

[00:18:57] We all knew each other's life story.

[00:18:58] We never judge each other.

[00:18:59] And so that's what we want family to be.

[00:19:01] Don't we wish we could talk to our mother and our father and our sister

[00:19:04] without them saying, you're not being the person I want you to be.

[00:19:07] You know, when you're with other people who don't have that condition on

[00:19:11] you, it's much more attractive and you're getting the same nourishment

[00:19:15] that you would want from your family.

[00:19:16] I can't even tell you how many people described their groups when

[00:19:19] things were good, when they were still enamored.

[00:19:22] They call it their chosen family and we even said that in the group.

[00:19:25] I just enrolled this filmmaker from LA.

[00:19:27] He's totally family.

[00:19:28] He's so family.

[00:19:29] You're going to love him.

[00:19:30] Like that's what we would say to it.

[00:19:32] And we felt that legitimately.

[00:19:34] Didn't we, Nip?

[00:19:35] And that's okay.

[00:19:36] I think that's a good ability to that.

[00:19:37] You know, there's a spirit, there's a connection that we all,

[00:19:40] you know, we don't always have it all in one person or one family.

[00:19:42] We can't expect that from a family.

[00:19:44] 100%.

[00:20:13] We tell our stories.

[00:20:14] We change the world.

[00:20:16] A little bit cult is proud to support the hashtag I got out project,

[00:20:20] which empowers survivors of cultic abuse to share their stories online

[00:20:24] as a catalyst for education, prevention and healing.

[00:20:27] Learn more about the hashtag I got out movement

[00:20:30] and find resources at I got out dot org.

[00:20:33] Meals bring people together,

[00:20:40] but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge.

[00:20:44] You can help by participating in Macy's annual feeding the hungry food drive.

[00:20:49] All proceeds go toward local food banks and families.

[00:20:52] Now through January 31st,

[00:20:54] you can purchase an icon in store or online

[00:20:57] or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags

[00:21:00] where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries.

[00:21:04] Together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's.

[00:21:19] I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time

[00:21:24] as I can outside of nature.

[00:21:25] Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it.

[00:21:28] Nature is a non-negotiable.

[00:21:29] Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me

[00:21:31] and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded.

[00:21:34] Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks.

[00:21:37] I try to not miss it

[00:21:38] and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around

[00:21:40] if I make it a priority.

[00:21:41] I get so much out of it.

[00:21:43] It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their world.

[00:21:46] It helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need

[00:21:49] and sometimes what I don't need.

[00:21:50] Like, I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:21:52] just because I hate to say no to people.

[00:21:53] You know what I mean?

[00:21:54] Thanks therapy.

[00:21:55] Thanks for helping me see that.

[00:21:56] And if you're thinking of starting therapy,

[00:21:58] give Better Help a try.

[00:21:59] It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible

[00:22:02] and suited to your schedule.

[00:22:03] Just fill out a brief questionnaire

[00:22:05] and get matched with a licensed therapist

[00:22:07] and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge.

[00:22:10] Look, even when we know what makes us happy,

[00:22:12] it's hard to say no to people.

[00:22:14] Even when we know what makes us happy,

[00:22:16] it's hard to make time for it.

[00:22:17] But when you feel like you have no time for yourself,

[00:22:19] non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever.

[00:22:22] Never skip therapy day with Better Help.

[00:22:24] Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today

[00:22:26] to get 10% off your first month.

[00:22:28] That's Better Help H-E-L-P dot com slash culty.

[00:22:33] The moment in Hawaii when you tracked him down.

[00:22:36] What that was like for you?

[00:22:37] That was a very tense moment for all different reasons.

[00:22:40] I mean, it ended up in the film.

[00:22:42] We shot that in 2015, right?

[00:22:44] A year before the film was out.

[00:22:46] And it was not the last thing I was filming.

[00:22:49] I was undercover there hiding from him.

[00:22:52] We had a lot of ways of following him

[00:22:55] so that we could show up on the beach by accident

[00:22:58] and have an accidental encounter with glasses

[00:23:01] that were like these with a camera, you know, an audio.

[00:23:05] And that was my plan for a year and a half.

[00:23:07] I was planning on this amazing conversation,

[00:23:10] eye to eye with him while he still trusted me

[00:23:13] because I hadn't done anything negative

[00:23:15] and ask him why, why, why, why, why?

[00:23:18] Just come on, lie to me, lie to me.

[00:23:20] The whole day went wrong.

[00:23:21] Three hours before we were supposed to leave

[00:23:23] all of our sunglasses weren't working.

[00:23:25] None of the glasses were working.

[00:23:26] None of the cameras were working.

[00:23:27] So, and now we worked on it for three hours.

[00:23:29] It was a Sunday.

[00:23:30] It was the last day we were going to see

[00:23:31] and we know he was going to the beach.

[00:23:32] I had my cinematographer.

[00:23:34] I had my troop with me.

[00:23:35] And all of a sudden we get a signal that he's leaving.

[00:23:38] So we're like, oh my God, we got to go.

[00:23:40] So we follow him to the beach.

[00:23:41] The glasses weren't working.

[00:23:42] I'm like, I'm not going to go say hello to him

[00:23:44] because I have no desire to see him.

[00:23:46] I'm only doing this for this moment to capture this

[00:23:49] because I want to capture him on film.

[00:23:51] And they go, well, then she goes,

[00:23:53] why don't you just put your iPhone in your pocket?

[00:23:55] I'm like, I'm not gonna put my iPhone in my pocket.

[00:23:56] She's just dropping your pocket.

[00:23:58] I'm like, I don't want a vertical image plus.

[00:24:00] I have been waiting for this moment forever, forever.

[00:24:03] You know, she goes, just do it.

[00:24:04] So I tore a whole mic shirt.

[00:24:06] I taped this thing on vertically.

[00:24:08] Yeah, vertically on my boot, on my chest, my boot.

[00:24:11] And I had a hole in my shirt.

[00:24:13] And that's why I was super nervous.

[00:24:15] I was wired.

[00:24:16] I walked out there and the first thing my feeling was

[00:24:19] is he looked at me and he looked down at my chest

[00:24:23] with his little camera sticking out.

[00:24:25] And I thought, well, there it goes.

[00:24:28] There goes my secret film.

[00:24:29] There goes my secret camera.

[00:24:31] There goes my everything.

[00:24:32] And I go, just get out of here.

[00:24:33] Just get out of here.

[00:24:34] This is not what you wanted to do.

[00:24:35] This isn't what you want.

[00:24:36] You don't want to be here.

[00:24:37] I'm not here to apologize.

[00:24:38] I'm not here to hit him.

[00:24:39] I'm not here to do anything.

[00:24:40] I just want to ask him some questions, you know?

[00:24:43] And have him tell me the way that he used to lie to me.

[00:24:46] I want him to lie to me again, right?

[00:24:48] So the audience can see what it's like to have a narcissist

[00:24:51] just lie to you, right?

[00:24:53] To your eyes.

[00:24:54] Act.

[00:24:55] Yeah.

[00:24:56] So I didn't get that shot.

[00:24:57] Instead, I got this low angle of his eyeball.

[00:24:59] So we were at, so I was like, so furious.

[00:25:01] I got home.

[00:25:02] I was like, okay, we're not using that footage.

[00:25:04] I just got out of there as fast as I could.

[00:25:06] I go, no one's ever going to see this footage.

[00:25:08] So we got home back here.

[00:25:09] We were cutting the film and I kept going, I'm going back.

[00:25:11] I'm going back.

[00:25:12] I'm going back because he doesn't know I'm making the movie yet.

[00:25:14] They go, this is fine.

[00:25:15] Just use what you have.

[00:25:16] So we cut it together this way because it really is unresolvable.

[00:25:18] There really is no resolve in this conflict.

[00:25:20] There isn't any way.

[00:25:21] There isn't anything we can say to a narcissist that's going to make him go,

[00:25:23] I'm so sorry.

[00:25:24] I didn't mean to.

[00:25:25] Yeah.

[00:25:26] Nothing.

[00:25:27] And so that was the ending and it was great to watch it at Sundance on big screens

[00:25:30] and his eyeball ends up in like the far left corner of the screen.

[00:25:33] And there's palm trees over here.

[00:25:36] It's not my shot, I imagine.

[00:25:38] And the whole audience is like this.

[00:25:40] Yeah.

[00:25:41] Like looking up at the eyeball and I was like, wow, I got that so powerful just to see

[00:25:46] how much we wanted to see him, but you know,

[00:25:50] how they had to go look at him and how it was holding their attention,

[00:25:53] you know, at that time and the movie was so pin dropping.

[00:25:56] So it all worked out.

[00:25:58] Did people thought I was supposed to hit them.

[00:25:59] They thought, I'm feeling my day.

[00:26:02] It wasn't going to be any survivor of anything would look at that moment.

[00:26:07] And I mean, I know I certainly have dreams where I confront the leadership and

[00:26:11] there's some time is physical violence.

[00:26:13] Usually it's, I'm like, what the fuck?

[00:26:15] You know, and so in some ways I knew that you were nervous.

[00:26:18] I didn't know the whole backstory why, but I, you know, projected that of

[00:26:21] course, but in some ways it couldn't have been better because you caught

[00:26:26] him saying some bullshit about good and bad and being the best and also doing

[00:26:31] the eye gazing.

[00:26:32] He was trying to do it.

[00:26:33] Do you, I thought,

[00:26:34] even if I really had that conversation or you had that conversation with this

[00:26:37] type of person who's not only a narcissist.

[00:26:39] He's also my therapist for 20 years.

[00:26:41] He thinks he knows me better than I know myself.

[00:26:43] When I was leaving, when I did finally see him, like I made a movie before

[00:26:46] I left the group back in the day, I showed it and he wasn't in it,

[00:26:50] but he wanted to see it.

[00:26:51] And it was like the last day I was before I was leaving.

[00:26:53] I was on the beach.

[00:26:54] I was returning my calls and I'm like, I didn't say goodbye.

[00:26:57] I didn't say anything to him.

[00:26:58] And he goes, are you afraid I'm going to tell you what to do?

[00:27:00] And I go, yeah.

[00:27:02] He goes, that's just your mother.

[00:27:04] And I go, no, Andrea.

[00:27:05] I said, go, that's you.

[00:27:06] Oh, good.

[00:27:07] That is you.

[00:27:08] That's my mother.

[00:27:09] It's you.

[00:27:24] And you know what?

[00:27:25] That's a great idea.

[00:27:26] Thank you for that.

[00:27:27] And as we've gotten to know other podcasters and learn more about

[00:27:30] this whole podcast thing, we've been learning that it takes a whole

[00:27:34] lot of different resources and different sources of revenue

[00:27:37] and listener support to keep it rolling.

[00:27:39] Sponsorships and ads and the occasional appeal to

[00:27:42] amaze balls listeners like you.

[00:27:45] That's why we added a way for anyone who wants to support

[00:27:47] the show to do exactly that.

[00:27:49] You can go to a little bitculti.com slash support

[00:27:52] or the link in our Instagram bio or smash that link in our show

[00:27:55] notes to make a one-time contribution or a recurring one.

[00:27:58] We will pay your support forward with a galactic level of love

[00:28:01] and light and healing resources, of course.

[00:28:04] Again, it's a little bitculti.com slash support

[00:28:07] or check out the link in our Instagram bios.

[00:28:09] Next up, we really got to figure out what to call you,

[00:28:12] our listenership, ALBC nation, flying monkeys.

[00:28:15] We're going to have to workshop that.

[00:28:17] Thanks guys.

[00:28:20] The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family,

[00:28:23] but everything wasn't as it seemed.

[00:28:26] I just had a 12-year-old boy still up here

[00:28:29] asking for help.

[00:28:31] He's emaciated.

[00:28:32] He's got tape around his legs.

[00:28:34] Ruby Frankie is his mom's name.

[00:28:37] Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie,

[00:28:39] the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group

[00:28:43] that ruined lives.

[00:28:45] Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:28:50] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[00:28:52] What are your self-care non-negotiables?

[00:28:55] Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga.

[00:28:58] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep.

[00:29:00] That's my personal and everyone's dream, isn't it?

[00:29:03] Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables.

[00:29:05] Like, I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:29:07] and I'm spending literally as much time

[00:29:09] as I can outside of nature.

[00:29:11] Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it.

[00:29:13] Nature is a non-negotiable.

[00:29:15] Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me

[00:29:17] but not great, not myself, not grounded.

[00:29:19] Therapy Day is a bit like my nature walks.

[00:29:21] I try to not miss it

[00:29:23] and I know I'm just going to feel so much better

[00:29:25] all around if I make it a priority.

[00:29:27] I get so much out of it.

[00:29:28] It helps me put my worries and anxieties

[00:29:30] in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind

[00:29:32] so I can focus on what I really need

[00:29:34] and sometimes what I don't need.

[00:29:35] Like, I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:29:37] just because I hate to say no to people.

[00:29:39] You know what I mean? Thanks, Therapy!

[00:29:41] Thanks for helping me see that.

[00:29:43] And if you're thinking of starting therapy,

[00:29:45] you can start with a line designed to be convenient,

[00:29:47] flexible and suited to your schedule.

[00:29:49] Just fill out a brief questionnaire

[00:29:51] and get matched with a licensed therapist

[00:29:53] and switch therapists any time for no additional charge.

[00:29:55] Look, even when we know what makes us happy,

[00:29:57] it's hard to make time for it.

[00:29:59] But when you feel like you have no time for yourself,

[00:30:01] non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever.

[00:30:03] Never skip Therapy Day with BetterHelp.

[00:30:05] Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today

[00:30:07] to get 10% off your first month.

[00:30:09] That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culty.

[00:30:13] You don't really want to go up to battle

[00:30:15] with those kind of fucking bullshit mind games.

[00:30:19] If you listen to that podcast when he tells those people

[00:30:21] he's trespassing on their property in Hawaii,

[00:30:24] and he tells them,

[00:30:25] oh, you look so frustrated and upset.

[00:30:28] That's gaslighting someone.

[00:30:29] You're not acknowledging their feelings.

[00:30:31] You're ignoring their feelings,

[00:30:32] and you're trying to make them feel wrong.

[00:30:34] So yeah, I didn't want to have that conversation.

[00:30:36] None of our friends do

[00:30:37] want to have that conversation with them.

[00:30:38] You can't.

[00:30:39] That's exactly how I feel.

[00:30:40] I totally agree with that.

[00:30:42] When people say, if there's anything you would say

[00:30:44] to Keith right now,

[00:30:45] it's like I'd walk right by him.

[00:30:46] What's the point?

[00:30:47] It really is what the point is.

[00:30:48] Unless they really want to.

[00:30:49] Totally agree, Will.

[00:30:50] That is a good reminder.

[00:30:51] I'm going to make sure that it's in our show notes.

[00:30:52] The link to my favorite murder where they talk about

[00:30:55] how some people confronted Michelle, Andreas,

[00:30:59] Francesco, Bermuda, Bahamas, whatever his name is.

[00:31:02] They confronted him in Hawaii

[00:31:03] because that for me was like,

[00:31:05] I got to live vicariously through that moment

[00:31:07] even though it wasn't my cult leader.

[00:31:08] It was yours.

[00:31:09] I mean he's still out there doing it, huh?

[00:31:11] He is still out there finding it.

[00:31:12] But I have to say something for you guys real quick

[00:31:14] because you guys are using your voice now

[00:31:17] to do what you're doing

[00:31:18] and you're talking about this in a way

[00:31:19] you never could have when you were in the group.

[00:31:21] You never could have when you were a week out of the group even.

[00:31:23] And so when I had that moment in the film

[00:31:26] and I said,

[00:31:27] I really wasn't going to waste my voice on this little man.

[00:31:31] But I had my voice back

[00:31:33] and I made the movie.

[00:31:34] And that really what I was saying.

[00:31:36] I go, I didn't have a voice,

[00:31:37] but I go, I do have a voice.

[00:31:39] And I had my sister say, fuck you for me.

[00:31:42] She said, fuck you.

[00:31:43] She says it for me, thank you.

[00:31:45] I don't have to say that.

[00:31:46] I don't even say that.

[00:31:47] But I make a movie.

[00:31:48] It's the same thing you guys are doing.

[00:31:49] You are making awareness of it.

[00:31:51] It's like supersize me.

[00:31:52] That movie made more changes in McDonald's

[00:31:55] than all the lawsuits, right?

[00:31:57] Right, education.

[00:31:58] Education exposing it.

[00:32:00] It helps people, makes people change

[00:32:02] and helps people give choice.

[00:32:03] Definitely more powerful.

[00:32:05] Thank you.

[00:32:06] It's definitely more powerful than hitting somebody.

[00:32:07] Well, yeah.

[00:32:08] Very true.

[00:32:09] Thank you for your film

[00:32:10] and I'm so glad I got to watch it in more time

[00:32:12] because I got so much out of it a second time.

[00:32:15] Yes.

[00:32:16] Thanks you guys.

[00:32:17] Thanks for bringing it up.

[00:32:18] And before we wrap,

[00:32:19] I have one more question.

[00:32:20] I noticed that Jared Leto is a producer

[00:32:22] and he's since started something

[00:32:24] that some say might be a cult.

[00:32:26] Do you know anything about this?

[00:32:27] Did you not know about this?

[00:32:28] No.

[00:32:29] I know he's fascinated with the subject

[00:32:31] and he's always been fascinated

[00:32:32] with cult leaders thinking wanting to play one maybe.

[00:32:34] We kind of thought he might want to play this.

[00:32:36] I guess at some point, you know,

[00:32:37] because he liked fascinating cult leader type characters.

[00:32:40] So you're saying that in his real life he's...

[00:32:42] Well listen, I haven't done a deep dive.

[00:32:44] I just, it's been brought to art

[00:32:45] because people email us all the time.

[00:32:47] You know, do this, do that episode.

[00:32:48] Like do this group.

[00:32:49] And people have said,

[00:32:50] are you going to do one on Jared Leto?

[00:32:51] And I was like, I haven't deep dived.

[00:32:52] I've done a little bit of research.

[00:32:53] Apparently it's,

[00:32:54] I can't tell if it's like a tongue-in-cheek thing

[00:32:56] like come to this retreat

[00:32:57] and I'm going to be your leader

[00:32:58] and there's a lot of white robes

[00:32:59] and he's a musician

[00:33:01] and I know he played also the,

[00:33:03] oh Nippy, what's his name?

[00:33:04] He's the guy who started, we work.

[00:33:05] Adam Newman.

[00:33:06] He played Adam Newman.

[00:33:07] Yeah, I'm watching that right now.

[00:33:08] Right.

[00:33:09] So like I don't know if this is him

[00:33:10] just like a media stunt,

[00:33:11] like a jokie thing or like a legit thing.

[00:33:14] So I don't know.

[00:33:15] I just thought maybe you might

[00:33:16] because he was your producer.

[00:33:17] I don't know if that will.

[00:33:18] Okay.

[00:33:19] Well then bookmark that and we'll...

[00:33:20] I'll do a deep dive.

[00:33:21] I know people who do that.

[00:33:23] Like definitely make a phone call.

[00:33:25] Perfect.

[00:33:26] And if he wants to come on our podcast

[00:33:27] we'll totally interview him.

[00:33:29] Will, I love you and your film

[00:33:31] at such a service,

[00:33:32] true service and not to any master

[00:33:34] but to actual humanity.

[00:33:36] So thank you.

[00:33:37] You know, we all learned one way

[00:33:39] not to do it

[00:33:40] and it pointed us all in a direction

[00:33:42] of how to do it I think.

[00:33:43] So that's what I think we can all be

[00:33:45] grateful for.

[00:33:46] That's right.

[00:33:47] I learned a lot of things not to do.

[00:33:48] That's right.

[00:33:49] 100%.

[00:33:50] Keep in touch please Will.

[00:33:51] Let us know about your upcoming projects

[00:33:52] and we adore you.

[00:33:53] Thank you so much.

[00:33:54] I appreciate that.

[00:33:55] Thank you Will.

[00:33:56] Thank you guys.

[00:33:57] Imagine yourself walking into a forest.

[00:34:01] You can see the path and the trees.

[00:34:04] High above you, the air is crisp.

[00:34:07] You are walking towards your happy place.

[00:34:09] Allegedly, allegedly say it with me.

[00:34:12] Anything said here on this podcast

[00:34:15] about alleged cults,

[00:34:16] alleged MLM schemes,

[00:34:18] alleged douchebaggery,

[00:34:19] mindfuckery, criminality,

[00:34:21] spiritual fraud or the like

[00:34:23] is offered purely as commentary

[00:34:26] because the views and opinions

[00:34:28] expressed on a little bit culty

[00:34:30] do not necessarily reflect on official policy

[00:34:33] or position of the podcast

[00:34:35] and any content provided by our guests,

[00:34:38] bloggers, sponsors or authors

[00:34:40] are their opinion

[00:34:42] and are not intended to malign any religion,

[00:34:44] group, club, organization,

[00:34:46] business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:34:50] So just let these words drift into your mind

[00:34:52] without needing to focus on any of them.

[00:34:55] You are great.

[00:34:56] You are capable.

[00:34:58] You deserve to be happy.

[00:35:00] Nobody's mad at you

[00:35:01] unless you're actually a narcissistic culty criminal.

[00:35:05] If that's you, cut that shit out.

[00:35:07] Don't be a fuckwad.

[00:35:09] But if that's not you,

[00:35:11] again, you are great.

[00:35:13] You are capable.

[00:35:14] You deserve to be happy.

[00:35:16] A little bit culty loves you.

[00:35:18] Thanks everybody for this special two-parter

[00:35:24] with Will Allen

[00:35:25] and we are going to put the link

[00:35:28] for the episode of My Favorite Murder,

[00:35:31] which has the full letter from somebody

[00:35:34] who did run into Jaime

[00:35:36] and some of his loyal followers out in Hawaii.

[00:35:39] I really recommend listening to it.

[00:35:40] It's just the first five minutes of the episode.

[00:35:42] It just really goes to show

[00:35:44] how even with all this information out there,

[00:35:47] all of these testimonials,

[00:35:48] all of these people saying,

[00:35:50] this happened to me,

[00:35:51] that people refused to look at it

[00:35:53] and stay in.

[00:35:55] It's crazy.

[00:35:56] It's not crazy because we used to have that.

[00:35:58] Well, there is an explanation for it, Sarah.

[00:36:00] Do you have an explanation?

[00:36:01] Which I think is a beautiful segue.

[00:36:03] Oh wow, I'd love to hear that explanation.

[00:36:05] It goes a little something like this.

[00:36:07] Okay.

[00:36:08] Are you back in the Ned Flanders voice?

[00:36:09] No, absolutely not.

[00:36:10] That guy's dead forever.

[00:36:12] For those of you who don't know,

[00:36:14] there's a guy named Leon Festinger

[00:36:16] and he's the guy who coined the term

[00:36:18] cognitive dissidents back in the,

[00:36:20] I guess the 50s.

[00:36:21] And he has a couple explanations

[00:36:23] as to why this phenomena exists

[00:36:26] and why people sometimes get radicalized

[00:36:28] or doubled down.

[00:36:29] And the precursors of it normally

[00:36:31] stem from the people are aware

[00:36:33] that they don't have evidence

[00:36:35] to stand on, right?

[00:36:36] And they know that the public perception,

[00:36:39] and I think this is the big one,

[00:36:40] they have a fear of looking ridiculous.

[00:36:42] That was ours when we were leaving.

[00:36:44] That was one of the first things I was like,

[00:36:45] oh shit, we got fucking dude.

[00:36:47] I gotta eat my crow, right?

[00:36:49] And so for people who are at this kind

[00:36:51] of stalemate or at this partner life,

[00:36:53] they get why the public perception

[00:36:55] is the way that it is.

[00:36:57] And they get why people see it

[00:36:59] and they avoid all the questions

[00:37:00] that expose that, right?

[00:37:01] So they refuse to put themselves

[00:37:03] in a position where they're not curating

[00:37:04] and creating the narrative

[00:37:05] or even rewriting it at its worst.

[00:37:07] And there's three things that cause that.

[00:37:09] There's sharing failure

[00:37:11] and sunk cost fallacy.

[00:37:13] And then there's sharing hardships.

[00:37:15] So with sharing failure,

[00:37:16] perfect examples is the one we did

[00:37:18] on Fellowship of Friends

[00:37:20] with Richard Burton, right?

[00:37:21] When they have a doomsday scenario

[00:37:23] and they have a date,

[00:37:24] normally you would think

[00:37:25] that when the date comes and goes

[00:37:26] and you're still alive

[00:37:28] that people will go, shit,

[00:37:30] that was dumb.

[00:37:31] But no, it actually gets them to double down, right?

[00:37:34] And the bonds increase

[00:37:36] after they share the failure.

[00:37:37] It causes them to double down

[00:37:38] or triple down on their viewpoint

[00:37:40] in fear of public embarrassment.

[00:37:42] Didn't he also infiltrate

[00:37:43] that particular group?

[00:37:45] Well, no, Leon Fessinger did one in the 50s.

[00:37:47] He didn't infiltrate Fellowship of Friends.

[00:37:49] I'm just giving example of the ones that we've described.

[00:37:51] So for example, sex acts too

[00:37:54] are a great way to humiliate people

[00:37:57] so that if they go against their narrative,

[00:38:00] they have to own that they were humiliated sexually.

[00:38:02] And that's a big one.

[00:38:03] It can happen to men and women.

[00:38:04] In a lot of our interviews,

[00:38:06] even in our scenario with the blow job scenario.

[00:38:08] You might want to summarize what that is

[00:38:10] for somebody who doesn't know

[00:38:11] the blow job scenario.

[00:38:13] What was that about?

[00:38:14] When Vanduush got everyone down to Mexico.

[00:38:17] Before he was arrested.

[00:38:18] He had what's called a recommitment ceremony.

[00:38:20] And this is what Lauren testified in court

[00:38:22] that there was a blow job ceremony

[00:38:24] where eight women were going to have the blow job

[00:38:26] and based on the book of Doss or whatever it was.

[00:38:28] But my point is, is that they do these things

[00:38:31] because after you're humiliated sexually,

[00:38:33] you're not going to turn on the person

[00:38:35] that got you to do it.

[00:38:36] You're sharing in the failure.

[00:38:37] So you have this group of people

[00:38:38] that are fear of being wrong

[00:38:40] and publicly embarrassed.

[00:38:41] And all they have is that faith

[00:38:43] in this thing that they've committed to

[00:38:45] because there's no real foundation to stand on

[00:38:47] and it leads to kind of a radicalization

[00:38:49] in their belief system or what looks to it.

[00:38:51] What another precursor

[00:38:52] or another symptom of that is what I've noticed

[00:38:54] is their behavior gets way more dogmatic and vitriolic.

[00:38:58] What goes on in order to maintain their self-image

[00:39:00] is that their morality is taking a backseat to their dogma

[00:39:03] and so they're fighting to keep their self-image a lot in this.

[00:39:06] And you know, look,

[00:39:07] we all have these in petty fights in our lives

[00:39:09] but this is one on a grand scale

[00:39:11] because you know, they feel like it's tooth and nail

[00:39:13] when really all they have to do is pivot,

[00:39:15] eat their crow and they're free of that prison of thinking.

[00:39:17] Which leads us to the sunk cost fallacy.

[00:39:20] So this is when you've invested all your time, emotions

[00:39:23] into something and you can't admit

[00:39:25] that you wasted your time and resources on something.

[00:39:27] So they have to make up something of value where there is none.

[00:39:31] And you see this kind of in relationships with people,

[00:39:33] you see, oh yeah, he's a good dad

[00:39:36] or she's a good mom

[00:39:38] but they're really in a relationship

[00:39:40] that probably isn't healthy

[00:39:41] but they have to make up the value to justify.

[00:39:44] I think we had a module where it talked about buying back the dollar.

[00:39:47] You can even see it in stock investments.

[00:39:49] Well, I invest so much time and resource in the stock,

[00:39:52] I have to keep it in the hopes that it goes up

[00:39:54] and they're inventing value.

[00:39:56] Like waiting at the elevator,

[00:39:57] like after you've waited for a certain amount of time

[00:39:59] you wasted so much time,

[00:40:00] you don't want to leave because...

[00:40:01] You don't want to take the stairs.

[00:40:02] You take the stairs

[00:40:03] because like it's going to come any moment.

[00:40:04] I'm going to get my value any minute.

[00:40:06] Although I think there's a little bit more at stake than...

[00:40:09] Yeah, but what I'm saying is it's like it's everywhere.

[00:40:11] It's like in little things with the elevator,

[00:40:13] it's in huge things like not being able to

[00:40:16] or willing to admit you're part of something bad.

[00:40:19] You can't go there in your brain

[00:40:21] because what does that mean about you?

[00:40:23] If you missed all the red flags and...

[00:40:24] Well, what does it mean that you did with your life?

[00:40:26] We had that too.

[00:40:27] Like do you remember when a group of people left Nexium in 2009

[00:40:31] and first of all we didn't even speak to them

[00:40:33] but why they left because they were being dishonorable.

[00:40:35] I know if you can't relate to this

[00:40:37] then you're purposely not trying to relate to it.

[00:40:40] A lot of people left

[00:40:41] and then the group that was still loyal in Nexium, this is 2009

[00:40:44] and we were part of that.

[00:40:45] We felt righteous and we were rewarded.

[00:40:48] We were noble for our loyalty

[00:40:51] and we all got promoted and everyone...

[00:40:53] We got access to things we didn't have access before.

[00:40:56] They had separated the wheat from the chaff.

[00:40:59] Yeah, so the third one is sharing hardships

[00:41:02] and I think this is the one that you should explain

[00:41:04] because I think this is what the branding ceremony was.

[00:41:06] It was the basis of trauma bonding

[00:41:08] and truthfully, I'm going to put this in my book, I think

[00:41:11] that the people I was branded with, the women

[00:41:14] weren't my close friends.

[00:41:15] They weren't the people that I was already tight with

[00:41:17] and Nexium there it was kind of random

[00:41:19] and afterwards I felt totally bonded

[00:41:21] in a way that I never would have imagined before.

[00:41:24] I felt like these are my sisters.

[00:41:26] I would go through anything for them.

[00:41:27] I think Van Duce did that on purpose 100%.

[00:41:30] It also increases your loyalty.

[00:41:32] I mean like Lauren, I think this is where Lang Lauren was brave

[00:41:35] and she did the right thing because I think she...

[00:41:37] When she got on the stand, she really nailed this

[00:41:39] but it created tighter bonds between you guys.

[00:41:41] So if you had that and the Sunk Cost Fallacy

[00:41:44] and the failure...

[00:41:45] Exactly.

[00:41:46] And 12 years and your livelihood caught up into it.

[00:41:49] It's quite a pivot

[00:41:50] and they think you're the one with weak character.

[00:41:52] I just wasn't radicalized.

[00:41:54] Right.

[00:41:55] That's the adhesive to this radicalization

[00:41:57] is you have sharing of failure,

[00:41:59] Sunk Cost Fallacy and sharing of hardships.

[00:42:01] Yep.

[00:42:02] If you go back and watch Holy Hell

[00:42:03] or listen to that first five minutes of my favorite murder,

[00:42:06] you can kind of understand why people would stay loyal

[00:42:09] to somebody like Jaime Gomez or anybody

[00:42:12] because of what it means about you as a person.

[00:42:16] So please be compassionate when people don't wake up

[00:42:19] as quickly as you hope they would.

[00:42:21] And speaking of which, Nipi and I realized

[00:42:24] that we've actually been awake now.

[00:42:26] That's what we call it.

[00:42:27] We've been out of Nexium for five years.

[00:42:30] Five year anniversary?

[00:42:32] Well anniversary.

[00:42:33] Well May, June, we don't really have a specific date

[00:42:36] because it was kind of a clusterfuck of a month,

[00:42:38] but Nipi's birthday of five years ago,

[00:42:41] we were on our way to New York to blow shit up.

[00:42:45] Yep.

[00:42:46] And then June 1st, I went in and filed my formal complaint

[00:42:50] of you branded my fucking wife.

[00:42:51] Was that the day I went to the FBI?

[00:42:52] No, that was the day before.

[00:42:54] So that whole week, this is like five years ago,

[00:42:57] things were unraveling.

[00:42:58] We still didn't know how bad it was,

[00:43:00] but we knew that we were out and we knew that we had to figure out

[00:43:03] how to, I don't even think we knew that we're going to actively dismantle things

[00:43:06] at that point.

[00:43:07] We just knew that we were out.

[00:43:08] That was when the fight or flight started.

[00:43:09] I was like, oh my God.

[00:43:10] It's like New Year's.

[00:43:11] New Year's is a time for reflection on how was the year

[00:43:14] and did I accomplish my goals

[00:43:16] and what am I focusing on for this new year?

[00:43:19] So five years is at least for us has been a really,

[00:43:21] it's been a contemplative time.

[00:43:24] Especially from where we thought we might be five years from that day.

[00:43:27] We have beautiful boys.

[00:43:28] We have a thriving marriage.

[00:43:30] We have an incredibly exciting and meaningful now career in this podcast,

[00:43:36] which is crazy how it's gone from a hobby to a full-time thing.

[00:43:40] And we're actually achieving what we set out to do

[00:43:42] when we were young naive pups in our 20s.

[00:43:45] Oh, the little pup, the little pup named Nippy.

[00:43:47] Well, think about it.

[00:43:48] I mean, it wasn't stupidity.

[00:43:50] It was naivety.

[00:43:51] Yeah, and idealism.

[00:43:52] Yeah.

[00:43:53] And those are all human things

[00:43:54] to turn such a negative scenario into a positive has been a journey

[00:43:58] and it's been really fun.

[00:43:59] And how great to have, you know, this episode of Will Allen

[00:44:02] as part of our five year anniversary celebration

[00:44:04] because he was there.

[00:44:05] Right.

[00:44:06] With his film at the beginning.

[00:44:07] Yeah, that's right.

[00:44:08] I'd say about five years ago this week would be watching Holy Hell going,

[00:44:11] oh, shit, that's us.

[00:44:12] Can we do you imagine somebody, a little angel coming down,

[00:44:14] you're going to be okay.

[00:44:15] And in five years, you're going to be interviewing the director

[00:44:18] of this film on your podcast.

[00:44:20] That would have been weird.

[00:44:21] Yeah, it would have been bizarre.

[00:44:22] You know, and he spent 22.

[00:44:23] He spent a much more time than we did.

[00:44:25] He knows on a level that we probably don't.

[00:44:28] I feel like we really got some extra nuggets from him,

[00:44:30] especially the part about the boundaries with the eyes.

[00:44:33] I found that really fascinating.

[00:44:35] Yeah.

[00:44:36] Right.

[00:44:37] You know, every episode of it, we learned so much.

[00:44:39] How lucky are we that we get to have these conversations,

[00:44:41] share them with our audience.

[00:44:42] We get to learn.

[00:44:43] You all get to learn and can I share a couple tidbits

[00:44:46] of what's coming up?

[00:44:47] Oh, geez.

[00:44:48] Here we go.

[00:44:49] So here's some things.

[00:44:50] We are interviewing Dr. Natalie Feinblatt.

[00:44:52] A therapist and we're going to really get some nuggets from her

[00:44:55] about what's the difference between PTSD and CPTSD

[00:44:58] and share with you, our audience,

[00:45:00] some tangible tools on overcoming those things.

[00:45:03] We are interviewing an incredible specialist in narcissism.

[00:45:07] We felt like our episode with Dan Shaw is the tip of the iceberg

[00:45:10] and we'll be talking to Dr. Romani.

[00:45:12] That's coming soon.

[00:45:13] I can't wait for that one.

[00:45:14] Yes.

[00:45:15] And there was so much response from the deep end with T.L. Swan

[00:45:18] that we decided to also interview the director

[00:45:20] and the producer.

[00:45:21] So stay tuned for that.

[00:45:24] I don't want to pick favorites.

[00:45:25] I'm so excited to share that we spent two hours

[00:45:29] with my personal hero in this space currently,

[00:45:32] Evan Rachel Wood.

[00:45:34] Yeah.

[00:45:35] Also, you know, after reading some of this cognitive distance stuff,

[00:45:38] the Festinger stuff, I think we should send it to her.

[00:45:40] Yeah.

[00:45:41] I think she'd appreciate that.

[00:45:42] I think it's very applicable.

[00:45:43] So homework, if you haven't watched Phoenix Rising on HBO,

[00:45:46] please do that.

[00:45:47] That's your homework for this week.

[00:45:48] So that's a little summary of what's to come.

[00:45:50] And we thought we'd wrap up with some very, very special word salad

[00:45:55] from none other than Michelle slash Jaime slash.

[00:46:00] I'm going to do it as Jaime Gomez.

[00:46:05] If you can't stand naked in front of your master,

[00:46:08] you can't stand naked in front of God.

[00:46:10] Oh, shit.

[00:46:14] Can this just be a thing that we do now?

[00:46:16] What a way to get you naked.

[00:46:18] If you can't stand naked before your master,

[00:46:21] how do you stand naked before God?

[00:46:23] I mean, that's such a good point.

[00:46:25] You have to stand naked.

[00:46:26] I should say that to you, Sarah.

[00:46:28] If you can't stand naked in front of your husband.

[00:46:30] I stand naked in front of you all the time.

[00:46:31] If you can't do that, you can't stand naked in front of God.

[00:46:33] But why do you even need to be naked in front of God?

[00:46:35] Seriously, what's God up to?

[00:46:37] Oh, fuck.

[00:46:38] Oh my.

[00:46:40] On that note, thank you everybody for listening.

[00:46:43] Thank you for the support.

[00:46:44] Hi, man.

[00:46:45] Thank you for the donations.

[00:46:46] Thank you for sharing your episodes.

[00:46:48] Hi, May.

[00:46:49] Hi, May still living in Hawaii, by the way.

[00:46:52] Bye, May.

[00:46:53] Bye, May.

[00:46:54] See you next time.

[00:46:56] Bye, guys.

[00:46:57] Let's keep the conversation going.

[00:47:13] We'll be back soon with more episodes of A Little Bit Coltty

[00:47:17] with more experts and survivors,

[00:47:19] and sometimes experts who are survivors

[00:47:21] as well as some familiar faces from the vow from HBO.

[00:47:24] If you've got suggestions or questions on upcoming topics,

[00:47:27] find us on Instagram at A Little Bit Coltty.

[00:47:30] And for more background on what brought me here,

[00:47:32] my memoir, Scarred, the True Story of How I Escaped,

[00:47:35] Nexium, the Cult that Bound My Life,

[00:47:37] is available on Amazon, Audible,

[00:47:39] and where most books are sold.

[00:47:41] If you'd like to help us spread the word about A Little Bit Coltty podcast,

[00:47:44] please give us a five-star review and tell your friends to subscribe.

[00:47:47] Seriously, like take out their phone

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[00:47:51] We're also available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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[00:47:55] And if you're listening on a smartphone,

[00:47:57] tap or swipe over the cover art of this podcast

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[00:48:02] You might also find some offers from our sponsors there,

[00:48:04] and when you support our sponsors,

[00:48:06] you help us keep this podcast going.

[00:48:08] Just don't be a little bit culty about it.

[00:48:10] A Little Bit Coltty is executive produced by me,

[00:48:12] your co-host Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nipy Ames.

[00:48:16] That's me.

[00:48:17] Associate producer is Jess Tardy,

[00:48:19] produced, edited, mixed and mastered by Citizens of Sound.

[00:48:23] Our amazing theme song, Cultivated,

[00:48:25] is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Assalan.

[00:48:28] I'm Sarah Edmondson,

[00:48:29] and thanks for listening to A Little Bit Coltty.