It’s Not You: Dr. Ramani On Post-Narc Healing

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:30] A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:00:42] Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:46] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material.

[00:00:52] You might even already be an occult.

[00:00:53] Oops, you better keep listening to Find Out.

[00:00:56] Welcome to Season 6 of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:00] See you down, take down some fioshoes.

[00:01:05] You know I'm too weak in my love.

[00:01:09] I like all I can leave but no one knows.

[00:01:17] Welcome back everybody to ALBC.

[00:01:20] Our guest today is a friend of the show and someone we admire so very much.

[00:01:24] We got a chance to have her on a little bit culty last year to talk about her fascinating work and we jumped at the chance to have her come back.

[00:01:31] This time she's here with a new book that we've just read and adored and we can't wait to talk to her about it.

[00:01:37] She's a PhD, she's really a big deal.

[00:01:40] No, seriously Dr. Ramani Dervasala is a licensed clinical psychologist in Los Angeles, California.

[00:01:45] Professor Emerida of Psychology at California State University, Los Angeles and the founder and CEO of Luna Education, training and consulting.

[00:01:53] She's an author of several books including Should I Stay or Should I Go, surviving a relationship with a narcissist and don't you know who I am?

[00:02:01] How does they say in an era of narcissism, entitlement and insavility?

[00:02:05] Her clinical, academic and consulting work is all about the impact that narcissism and high conflict entitled and taginistic personality styles have on human relationships, mental health and society.

[00:02:16] She's been featured at South by Southwest, TEDx, Red Table Talk, the Today Show, investigation discovery and more.

[00:02:23] You can also find her on YouTube where she has accumulated millions of views on her videos discussing narcissism on her successful channel and social media at Dr. Ramani.

[00:02:32] She's a proud pod mama hosting the excellent navigating narcissism with Dr. Ramani and if you haven't heard that show already it's a must listen trust us.

[00:02:41] Get that in your ears, stat.

[00:02:43] Her new book released in February is called It's Not You, identifying and healing from narcissistic people.

[00:02:49] She wants you to know that healing and thriving after or even during a narcissistic relationship can be challenging but it is possible.

[00:02:57] Her newest book again, It's Called It's Not You, shows that the first step is to stop trying to change the narcissistic person, stop blaming yourself and start giving yourself permission to foster your autonomy and sense of self outside of the relationship.

[00:03:11] It's not digitty damn, this will be such a helpful episode for all of us.

[00:03:17] Let's get into it.

[00:03:19] Here's our chat with the amazing and insightful and ever so eloquent Dr. Ramani.

[00:03:25] Welcome back to a little bit called you. We've been so excited to have you on ever since we heard about your third book and this is the third book in the topic.

[00:03:45] You've written two amazing books already. Why this third where did this come from? Tell us about the origins.

[00:03:50] The new book It's Not You is a book on healing. So many, if not almost I'd say 80 90% of the books on narcissism are about narcissism.

[00:03:59] Right? About the narcissist. Let's understand the narcissist. The anatomy of a narcissist all of that.

[00:04:04] What we don't talk enough about is not only what it does to the people in their relationships but what you can do about it.

[00:04:11] Often we give this kind of advice, well they're never going to change so you have to leave.

[00:04:16] Leaving isn't an option for everybody and so it's not you is there's an old proverb that reads basically the tale of the hunt is always told by the hunter and never the lion.

[00:04:27] And we always think of a lion as fierce but actually the lion is the hunter's prey and the hunters at a market advantage

[00:04:33] and it tells the story the way they want. This is really meant to be the story of the hunt told by the lion or anyone who is actually being stalked and bothered and harassed and harmed.

[00:04:43] And so you know me Sarah, Nippie you both know me Sarah in particular you know that I'm not hopeful when it comes to this topic.

[00:04:50] I don't believe narcissistic people can change. This book is actually filled with hope because or as I don't have much hope for narcissistic folks I have tons of hope for survivors in every single day.

[00:05:01] I'm hearing about a person who's been through really terrible narcissistic relationships once they get it, once they heal, once they go to the process of radical acceptance, a grief.

[00:05:10] I see that something in them really they're allowed to actually slide into their individuated self and so there's a lot of hope but I think so much of the guidance out there

[00:05:19] I'll see these TikTok videos and everything. He's when our system is get out and what happens is if you can't leave but you have minor children you may not be able to leave for cultural reasons financial reasons

[00:05:29] whatever it may be folks who can't leave feel ashamed or I guess there's I'm going to suffer forever and I don't believe that I believe that even if you stay, there's a very very hope filled healing filled future.

[00:05:41] It's going to look different than for someone who left but it doesn't have to look any any less healthier.

[00:05:46] In addition to an amazing book you gave Sarah and I a lot of fodder for joking around and because we are we're reading it and we were calling each other and she called me up and I was like she said what do you think?

[00:05:57] Sarah I have so much compassion for your struggle or she's like what are you talking about? What are you talking about? Maybe you're the one.

[00:06:04] And I was like Sarah she called me and I was like he got into the part where she mentions you.

[00:06:10] We we have a good time here and separate separate no I like do take private clients anymore not anymore for exactly this reason you can thank folks like Nippy for that.

[00:06:23] All joking aside you know I was reading it and I was going to Sarah say oh my god I do some of these like I'm like I was some of it was kind of horrifying to be quite honest with you.

[00:06:32] And you know Sarah reassured me she's like you're a good person I was like thank you she's cutting me and all that stuff.

[00:06:38] You bring up an important point though right because I think that when people first of all I think the problem is is that we hear the word narcissists and we view it as a black or white.

[00:06:47] Yes you either are you it's not that simple right or we view it diagnostically which were even throwing that out completely but it's a continuum but it's also not just one thing.

[00:06:57] So just because maybe I don't know someone interrupts you or talks over you or maybe even monopolizes the conversation that doesn't make them a narcissistic person

[00:07:06] or they talk about their day first and may not wait to hear about your day that doesn't make them a narcissistic person.

[00:07:12] Now if that happened every single day every conversation was just about everyone they encountered maybe were smelling it but you got to have all the other stuff

[00:07:21] the entitlement and the variable empathy and the grandiosity and the control and the power obsession and all the stuff like again a carrot is not soup flower is not cake you need all the other stuff.

[00:07:35] And I think that healthy people who hear the content on narcissism immediately go to well I do that sometimes we all do these things sometimes we're we are human beings right by definition we're going to do these things

[00:07:48] the fact is though healthy human beings make amends they have self reflection you might turn to a spouse or partner and say yikes I will ask I talked about my day for 20 minutes and I didn't even ask you I am so sorry can you imagine a narcissistic person ever doing that in history never

[00:08:06] and that's the difference is that when we do have some slippage when we're not sort of being as interpersonally balanced as we can be that we we check ourselves and we check in with the people we care about and say I didn't get that right

[00:08:19] and I am sorry we actually take real responsibility nothing not things like I'm sorry you feel that way so we that there's a big difference.

[00:08:27] Absolutely just sitting the stage for our listeners that when we're talking about recovering from narcissistic abuse they can interplay that or interchange that with call recovery

[00:08:35] Absolutely I mean listen it's funny I just did an interview with with you on your doctor on your Lala to be week ago and we were talking about this and that the parallels are our eerie the the difference is

[00:08:49] it's probably a cultic structure is much more codified a narcissistic relational structure is often two people but you can have cults of two people look at Sarah Lawrence it's a cult of seven people

[00:08:59] cults can be quite small but the fact is is that all of the apparatus is the same if anything to me what a cult is is that you take all the narcissistic dynamics and it's really colorful like I watch the movie Barbie recently and everything was like color

[00:09:16] and then I watch Oppenheimer and everything was not color that's to me what a cultic narcissistic systems like it's everything bright color so every dynamic is just amped up the volume the color all of it so

[00:09:28] it's like things like collateralizing someone which happens in a narcissistic relationship is much more concrete in a cultic relationship so it's like you take it all and it becomes more it's almost like they give you a manual for the

[00:09:42] narcissistic relationship in a family or in a couple where it's not a again an organized cult you're sort of it feels different but it's exactly the same it has exactly the same effect

[00:09:55] and one could argue that the deep programming in essence we would have to do for somebody who's leaving a cultic system not to mention things like moral injury and all of that those are very very similar dynamics

[00:10:06] to what I've always observed in people who are leaving narcissistic relationships or have become aware of narcissistic relationship

[00:10:13] such a good point and will be referring people to episode one which we just relistened to to prep for this and it's so good

[00:10:18] it's like definitely one of our favorite flagship episodes especially with people are like told me about your podcast and they have no cult connection

[00:10:25] and I'm like this is one that like everybody can relate to it so helpful and truthfully when I started your book I was like oh my God I read so many

[00:10:31] books about this and since leaving I'm not going to learn anything new about narcissism but I did I did and two things

[00:10:38] I really would like to point out specifically in regards to our podcast is the concepts of breadcrumbing and future faking in euphoric recall

[00:10:46] those three things before we get into healing I think is so important in regards to like in terms of the recovery understanding the harm that narcissists did

[00:10:54] either an occult or one on one can you explain some of those terms

[00:10:57] so breadcrumbing is this process and any narcissistic system cultic system it happens where the simplest way to put it is

[00:11:05] in the relationship you get indoctrinated into or teach yourself to get by unless and less and less

[00:11:12] and be willing to turn it into more and more and more so it would literally be the simplest example it would be somebody when a relationship with a narcissistic person who doesn't communicate is very shady

[00:11:23] it's very dismissive and that person comes home on time for dinner one day out of ten and the person relationship oh my gosh they came home for dinner

[00:11:33] I cooked for them like we're doing okay and so it is very much or the person will remember an event and give them a gift and say oh my gosh they remember they give

[00:11:43] they're such a good friend and so not only is most of the relationship characterized by neglect what it means is that even one tiny showing up

[00:11:52] gets overinterpreted overvalued the problem is over justified as a piece of evidence that this relationship is good or healthy or

[00:12:02] beneficent or this other person's okay and over time breadcrumbings are really insidious dynamic because for a lot of people it can start early in life

[00:12:11] like they get and because for kids kids have to make a relationship with a parent work including an artistic parent

[00:12:18] so the narcissistic parent can literally every so often look up from a newspaper and the kid will say my parent loves me

[00:12:25] and all the rest of the time be absent the child learns at a very early age that love and close relationships are transactional

[00:12:33] what do I need to do to make this person look over their newspaper and then that expectation gets taken into adult relationships

[00:12:40] but it doesn't just happen that way some people have perfectly fine family systems growing up

[00:12:45] but then they meet someone they craft a narrative about this is my person this person's great I'm really into this person

[00:12:52] and if that person's narcissistic and they've done sort of the four to six to eight weeks of love bombing

[00:12:57] and that's all the investment they were ever going to put in and then the devaluing happens

[00:13:01] the person has those couple of months of the love bombing to sort of draw from, if you will

[00:13:06] and then as the process of pulling out for the narcissistic person happens

[00:13:11] then the person is still holding on to that and in fact it cuts to the other topic you were asking about

[00:13:16] which is euphoric regal we can selectively it's an interesting kind of a twist

[00:13:21] in these narcissistic relationships. It's cognitive dissonance

[00:13:24] it's cognitive dissonance but it actually goes against what we know about human nature in a way

[00:13:30] because our brains, our nervous systems are actually developed to choose threats in our environment

[00:13:38] in fact we selectively remember bad things and there's an evolutionary adaptation to that

[00:13:43] if we can remember which bush had the poison berries we're going to be less likely to eat the poison berries

[00:13:48] if we remember which pathway took us down the you know the dangerous creek we won't go down that pathway again

[00:13:54] we are our sympathetic nervous systems our nervous systems in general monitor for threat

[00:13:59] and in fact when you look at some of the interesting work on mindfulness

[00:14:02] Rick Hansen's work is a great example he is somebody who said like listen part of what we need to do is mindfulness practices

[00:14:08] is train our brains to look for good stuff you know because we're so trained to

[00:14:13] in many if you will healthy relationships people will focus on the one fight they had three weeks ago

[00:14:19] but the other three weeks were great there's this weird interesting flip

[00:14:23] because of the trauma bond that happens in any narcissistic relationship

[00:14:27] which is that a person feels attached to someone where the relationship goes back and forth it's good

[00:14:33] and it's bad it's up and it's down and because there was a period of really good

[00:14:38] and oftentimes there's enablers who are signing off on that relationship

[00:14:42] oh gosh what a great relationship you have that the person is then trying to make sense of the confusion

[00:14:47] they blame themselves they get by on the breadcrumbs and they justify the behavior in the relationship

[00:14:53] and they keep falling back on just when they say this is really unhealthy

[00:14:57] but gosh we had such a good time in Miami three years ago

[00:15:00] and they'll selectively pull out those good memories euphoric recall

[00:15:04] so it's part of that whole trauma bonding mechanism but the breadcrombing is again

[00:15:08] it's getting by on so little and really crafting a narrative about how good it is as a result

[00:15:15] it's present in almost every narcissistic relationship I've ever seen

[00:15:19] after people get educated and they start to learn that this isn't healthy

[00:15:23] it's almost like a person who again I think any of us who are in a scarcity mindset

[00:15:27] and I think breadcrombing is part of a scarcity mindset

[00:15:30] and you don't think you deserve more because that's what the narcissistic relationship tells you

[00:15:34] you don't deserve more you're not enough how dare you ask for more

[00:15:38] how dare you have a need, how dare you have a want

[00:15:41] all of that gets taken away the person's sense of self gets taken away

[00:15:45] and the breadcrombing really kicks in

[00:15:47] so we heard the term breadcromb it was basically specifically directed at women by Keith

[00:15:53] and some of the illustrating's

[00:15:55] that's very that makes sense though

[00:15:57] it totally does he said women

[00:15:59] we dangle the breadcromb for the man

[00:16:01] and the man is always the one that's just kind of waiting for the crumbs that they

[00:16:05] grant us and they control it through sex

[00:16:08] okay so let me break down when Keith I want to just give you like I want to

[00:16:12] make a finer sort of observational point on that

[00:16:15] when Keith made this whole thing women breadcromb by dangling the little crom which like you said

[00:16:20] implied sort of sex and let his lack of capacity

[00:16:24] or lack of whatever you want to call it to access the sexuality offered by normal women

[00:16:29] right in exchange for not coercive way

[00:16:32] correct that is the most vulnerable narcissistic thing I've ever heard in my life

[00:16:36] totally right that is that whole I mean he he was an interesting hybrid

[00:16:41] of a mix between malignant narcissism communal narcissism

[00:16:46] and vulnerable narcissism forever viewing himself as a victim

[00:16:50] sort of and again getting caught in this kind of this sort of eddie in the stream

[00:16:55] of women are you know messing with me with their sexuality

[00:16:59] they won't give me what they I want it's in cell talk right

[00:17:02] all in science tend to be vulnerable and malignant narcissists

[00:17:05] he had the communal narcissistic peace because he got off on this idea of him being some sort of weird savior

[00:17:09] healer malignant narcissists because he's willing to exploit

[00:17:13] unfortunately he also was a psychopath because he has no remarks for what he did

[00:17:17] so it's like a dark trip where it becomes an interesting subtype

[00:17:21] and I've studied the Keith of it all very very closely is that he's a dark tetrad

[00:17:25] with the vulnerable narcissism which is an interesting kind of a twist

[00:17:29] they're usually not as victim me and incipit as he is

[00:17:33] and his insipidness and that idea of women breadcromb by doing that

[00:17:37] that's a unique twist in him and I think it's what actually gave him a lot of power

[00:17:41] this is a very physically unattractive emasculated kind of icky man

[00:17:47] I'm going to tell you I'm just sort of share a little nippy and Sarah

[00:17:50] when I watched the battle I remember watching Sarah's relationship with you

[00:17:54] and then I see these intercut with these images of Keith

[00:17:56] I'm like thank God Sarah got like a hot guy because ew this is the name of this group

[00:18:00] I mean you know it's like I mean really nippy's really

[00:18:03] is a handsome guy you're a beautiful woman but like your wedding pictures are like

[00:18:07] out of a wedding magazine kind of thing

[00:18:09] but when you could imagine nippy the kind of visual stimulus you were for someone like Keith

[00:18:14] because you were much more masculine you're much more physically strong

[00:18:17] you would get the girl and so for him

[00:18:20] incipit is the word that keeps coming to play and so he would create this

[00:18:25] he created this environment basically like many cult leaders do

[00:18:28] to be able to get sex but the entire construct they create

[00:18:32] you'll see this in a variety of cultic systems where this vulnerable narcissistic

[00:18:38] emasculated unattractive like man will view women as weaponizing sexuality

[00:18:46] when all they're doing is just sort of walking around the world and living their lives

[00:18:49] so he had that odd twist of the vulnerable narcissism thrown into the dark tissue

[00:18:54] how could you societal standards and norms that have little grains of truth

[00:18:59] and blow that up into some big conspiratorial conscious thing that women do

[00:19:05] which incidentally didn't really make sense to me

[00:19:08] but I went along with some of it because there were some grains of truth in it

[00:19:12] but I didn't see any of that particularly what he was saying as a personal problem

[00:19:16] yeah and I think we have to train ourselves to view these things as personal problems

[00:19:21] it doesn't you know it's just sort of that such an oppressive mindset

[00:19:25] for him to have had about women but when you and it's and again you're not mean people

[00:19:29] but anyone watching the show where at home we're not hanging out with this guy

[00:19:32] we're like you yeah and then it all had a greater context to it

[00:19:36] but that again that's that mindset that really drives that whole insolving

[00:19:40] and in fact not wanting to go too far of a tangent is this idea

[00:19:44] that a lot of people ask the big question is is narcissism on the rise right

[00:19:48] are we seeing more of it and I was talking to Keith Campbell

[00:19:52] who I think maybe you've talked to Sarah have you talked to him

[00:19:55] sexual Georgia he's a professor in personality and social psychology

[00:19:59] he's not a clinician but he's wanted to me the best expert on narcissism

[00:20:04] scientifically that there is out there he's at I guess at university Georgia

[00:20:08] and we had this interesting conversation he's written several books on the topic of narcissism

[00:20:12] and one of them back in 2012 was called the narcissism epidemic with a woman named Gene Twendi

[00:20:17] it was also a personality researcher and we were talking about this idea

[00:20:21] is it on the rise and him and I both agreed grandiose narcissism

[00:20:25] the sort of arrogant celebrity look at me pretentious

[00:20:30] do you like my sports car narcissism? Him and I both agreed that's probably been pretty stable

[00:20:36] the differences is that the internet has given them a different platform

[00:20:40] but anybody from back before internet days will say no I knew people

[00:20:44] that's right they just sort of showed off in a different way

[00:20:47] the vulnerable narcissism though is what I think and he both of us agreed

[00:20:52] is really on the rise and the vulnerable narcissistic people are incredibly jealous

[00:20:59] grudgingly entitled people so when they go on social media

[00:21:03] and they see beautiful women they quote unquote can't have but they believe our breadcrumbing them

[00:21:08] when they see people who have the job that they want or somebody whose hard work resulted in success

[00:21:13] somebody who is merely more attractive than them or has a better life than them

[00:21:17] it pushes their buttons like nothing ever before

[00:21:21] so these vulnerable narcissists were probably just doing something else

[00:21:25] and we didn't see them and now I think that even people have a seat of this

[00:21:29] it has blown up and that form of narcissism not only has gotten more dangerous

[00:21:34] it's the vast majority of internet trolls and cruel commenters

[00:21:38] anonymous sort of weird people on the internet

[00:21:41] there's more danger there because they're like time bombs

[00:21:44] because they really feel that the world has done them wrong

[00:21:47] would you say Jeff from Twin Flames is in that category?

[00:21:50] less so and I'll tell you why less so

[00:21:52] because I think he comes off much more clean communal

[00:21:56] and grandiose with a touch of molasses

[00:21:58] right because he's in an interesting sort of intimate relationship

[00:22:03] with a wife person or whatever that person is

[00:22:05] Megan Chalella

[00:22:06] yes right yes so many names

[00:22:08] is M.O. feels a little less vulnerable

[00:22:11] I have to be honest with you Keith it was dripping off of the vulnerable narcissists

[00:22:15] but for him it's more of a cocktail of the malignant the communal and the grandiose

[00:22:19] I mean there's no cult leader in the world

[00:22:21] that doesn't have a touch of the communal narcissism

[00:22:24] that's built into it

[00:22:25] and that's where when we think of the continuum

[00:22:28] a mild communal narcissist, a narcissist that gets their admiration and validation

[00:22:32] by doing stuff

[00:22:34] for like doing what they think are humanitarian

[00:22:37] teaching the world new age stuff you name it

[00:22:40] at the mild level these are people who do beach cleanups in a bikini

[00:22:44] and have to take pictures and look at me killing the bake kind of nonsense

[00:22:48] and then at the far end of the continuum are the cult leaders

[00:22:52] okay when we talk about severe communal narcissism

[00:22:54] that's such a great description

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[00:23:15] it's a lot of fun over there people

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[00:23:26] mine too to be honest but that's just life

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[00:24:30] hello culty friends Sarah here as you probably know about us

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[00:25:51] that's CHOMPS.com slash culty

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[00:25:58] happy snacking

[00:26:02] break times over people let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty

[00:26:06] it's a good one

[00:26:07] looking at specific therapeutic approaches or techniques that you've recommended

[00:26:11] survivors can you tell us about the tenant of radical acceptance and how that relates

[00:26:16] the radical acceptance piece is in its simplest form

[00:26:20] and I think unfortunately some people get so caught up in the simple they don't recognize

[00:26:23] it's got a lot more branches to the tree

[00:26:25] in the simplest form radical acceptance is that that real and final acceptance

[00:26:30] that the patterns the dynamics and the behaviors in your narcissistic relationship

[00:26:35] are not going to change. You'll notice I didn't say it is simply as a narcissist

[00:26:39] and going to change because I think it almost feels defeatist

[00:26:43] to people to and they feel like they're bad people for saying that

[00:26:46] but when we frame it as because really all that matters with the narcissistic person

[00:26:49] is their behavior right that otherwise they're not affecting us what's going on in their head

[00:26:53] unless the person to behavior is not our problem

[00:26:56] but so by making it the behavior I think I've found a lot of clients benefit

[00:27:00] from that slight distancing okay yeah everything they're doing is not going to change

[00:27:03] thank you but really the core of it said they're not going to change right

[00:27:06] so the radical acceptance is they're not you're not going to be the exception

[00:27:10] and whatever teeny tiny bit of change they may undergo is not going to be enough

[00:27:15] to turn this relationship around it's still going to be a very tense

[00:27:19] invalidating uncomfortable emotionally abusive relationship

[00:27:22] that's piece one of radical acceptance

[00:27:25] the second piece of radical acceptance though

[00:27:29] is that especially for people who can't fully leave these relationships

[00:27:35] right so people who for whatever reason so family member

[00:27:38] it's a marriage they can't get out of it's a job they can't get out of

[00:27:41] radical acceptance isn't a magic pill

[00:27:44] just because you radically accept that narcissism and its patterns

[00:27:49] and its behaviors and all that will not change not on your watch for sure

[00:27:53] and not on anyone else's frankly that it's not going to make it

[00:27:56] so that it doesn't hurt you anymore right

[00:27:58] so there's plenty of people in my world that are narcissistic

[00:28:01] I love a lot of contact with

[00:28:03] I've radically accepted but when they deliver a zinger it still hurts my heart

[00:28:08] I'm still me right I haven't become some sort of you know sort of stony closed-up ice person

[00:28:13] like I get hurt and then I think a lot of people are surprised

[00:28:17] like wait a minute I radically accepted this shouldn't bother me anymore

[00:28:20] I said I never said this wasn't going to bother you

[00:28:22] I said now we're telling you it rains in Seattle

[00:28:25] that doesn't mean if you go outside you're not going to get wet

[00:28:27] just because you know it's going to rain

[00:28:29] it's still going to affect you

[00:28:31] but it usually affects people differently

[00:28:34] people might take the stance of

[00:28:36] okay this isn't bothering me as much

[00:28:38] I was more prepared for this

[00:28:40] I wasn't as surprised by this

[00:28:43] like it can kind of take away some of the sting

[00:28:45] but for some people it's often a chronic grief-ridden reminder

[00:28:49] that it doesn't change so but radical acceptance is essential

[00:28:52] if you can't get there you ain't healing

[00:28:54] because as long as hope is on the table

[00:28:56] and the hope is about the narcissistic person changing

[00:28:59] or people will say I'm not going to tell anyone

[00:29:01] but I really think they're going to change

[00:29:02] you will not heal

[00:29:04] you really will not

[00:29:05] because you're forever having your heart broken

[00:29:07] and while the heart is going into any of that resilient

[00:29:10] right and I guess in the cult context

[00:29:12] or in that framework it's like the hope of

[00:29:14] whatever the leader is promising you

[00:29:16] it's going to be like this

[00:29:18] that you're always waiting for future-faking

[00:29:20] we have another nexium nerd tidbit for you

[00:29:22] I'm not going to mention names but there was

[00:29:24] is it in the vowel?

[00:29:26] oh maybe it isn't the value right

[00:29:27] yeah it doesn't mean it's a name anyway

[00:29:28] I mean suffice to say we heard many stories like this

[00:29:31] but there was an incident

[00:29:33] I think it was actually in the second season

[00:29:35] where Keith would figure out your wants and needs

[00:29:37] and then just future-fake him

[00:29:39] he's like well you want a baby in there

[00:29:41] and point it to her womb

[00:29:42] you know stuff like that which is really cruel

[00:29:44] he featured a lot with babies

[00:29:46] well I mean I got called back to work on a future film

[00:29:49] you know so my career was future-faked

[00:29:51] this is where you're bringing up something so important

[00:29:54] because I think that we miss the mark-resistic people

[00:29:57] narcissistic people are incredibly socially perceptive

[00:30:01] and socially aware which goes against the grain of what we think

[00:30:04] we think they don't have empathy

[00:30:05] and they're socially unskilled

[00:30:06] and all that

[00:30:07] no they're very socially perceptive

[00:30:09] almost like this kind of creepy sort of emotional intelligence

[00:30:13] in that they'll spend time with you

[00:30:15] in fact it was Mark Vesente

[00:30:17] who on my podcast called it data mining

[00:30:20] he would say they're really good at data mining in that

[00:30:22] and this will happen outside of occultic setting

[00:30:25] they're on a first date

[00:30:26] and their questions which seem so interesting and curious

[00:30:29] and they want to know about you

[00:30:30] they're actually learning

[00:30:32] they're getting intel on you

[00:30:33] I call it casing the joint

[00:30:35] it's like watching the rhythms around a bank or a business

[00:30:38] to figure out when the doors are locked

[00:30:40] where what windows are left open

[00:30:42] so you know how to to burglarize

[00:30:43] and you know how to steal from it

[00:30:45] it's what the narcissistic person is doing

[00:30:47] they're figuring out what doors don't you close

[00:30:48] what windows are left open

[00:30:49] do you always turn on the alarm

[00:30:51] and then they figure out how they can get in there

[00:30:53] and do their harm

[00:30:55] and we don't think that most people are healthier

[00:30:57] I think no this person is curious about me

[00:30:58] I'm curious about them

[00:31:00] once they get this intel

[00:31:02] in fact my sort of favorite narcissist move

[00:31:05] is that they'll look at you

[00:31:06] like with their hand in their chin

[00:31:07] like this and say

[00:31:08] tell me your greatest fear

[00:31:09] oh my god

[00:31:10] you're like ooh this is intimacy

[00:31:12] this is intimacy

[00:31:13] and you start sharing all these fears

[00:31:15] and band and men

[00:31:16] or whatever it may be

[00:31:18] and they'll delight you

[00:31:19] and tell you some fear too

[00:31:20] so that you feel like they're in the dance with you

[00:31:22] and they have now put that

[00:31:23] in their little vault

[00:31:24] and whatever it is

[00:31:25] and it's not just a thing you're afraid of

[00:31:27] but it's the things you dream for hope for

[00:31:29] like you said

[00:31:30] I want a baby, I want to make a film

[00:31:31] I want to do this, I want to do that

[00:31:33] and they've listened to you

[00:31:34] and remember

[00:31:35] the people who are often very vulnerable

[00:31:36] to these relationships

[00:31:37] are people who may not have always felt seen and heard

[00:31:40] so now if you grew up with a parent

[00:31:42] who never saw or heard your dreams

[00:31:44] and there's an adult person who's doing this

[00:31:46] within the context of something that feels loving

[00:31:49] or oriented towards growth

[00:31:51] it feels like a miraculous experience

[00:31:53] so then when they make a promise around that thing

[00:31:56] the way the kid would have wanted the parent to say

[00:31:58] hey this weekend we're going to go to the park

[00:32:00] and throw the ball

[00:32:01] it's the same, it's the equivalent

[00:32:02] now it's just the adult equivalent of that

[00:32:04] it's the most deductive thing in the world

[00:32:06] and what the future fake does

[00:32:07] is it keeps someone on the hook

[00:32:09] because a lot of future fake stuff

[00:32:11] can't be produced in a day

[00:32:12] in an intimate relationship

[00:32:14] it would be like listen, listen

[00:32:15] I know we're not spending a lot of time together

[00:32:17] I promise you

[00:32:18] in about six months

[00:32:19] this promotion is going to get sorted out

[00:32:21] we'll spend more time together

[00:32:22] well you can't fast forward six months

[00:32:24] now you're in it for the six months

[00:32:26] a six month path

[00:32:27] six months path

[00:32:28] that's what they're not spending time with you

[00:32:29] the other big-future fake

[00:32:31] for people is

[00:32:32] I'm gonna go to therapy

[00:32:33] I'm gonna go to therapy

[00:32:34] no I know

[00:32:35] I haven't been great

[00:32:36] I'm gonna go to therapy

[00:32:37] well they're not gonna go to therapy instantly

[00:32:38] and it's not gonna work instantly

[00:32:40] three six months you hang out

[00:32:41] they go to their so-called therapy

[00:32:43] you have to take that on good faith

[00:32:44] nothing changes

[00:32:45] you've lost another six months

[00:32:47] this happens around kids

[00:32:48] this happens around moving

[00:32:50] this happens around marriage

[00:32:51] that have promotions

[00:32:53] and jobs with narcissistic bosses

[00:32:55] pick it

[00:32:56] the financing for a project

[00:32:57] whatever it may be

[00:32:59] or the loan you're gonna get

[00:33:00] from a family

[00:33:01] the list goes on

[00:33:02] and it's a way to keep you on the chain

[00:33:05] and it's a very classical tool

[00:33:06] in cultic systems

[00:33:07] what's a better future fake

[00:33:08] than a goals program

[00:33:09] yeah it was always

[00:33:10] perfect

[00:33:11] exactly

[00:33:12] I just had a memory of something

[00:33:13] I'm gonna share this with you

[00:33:14] but not this relationship

[00:33:15] a previous relationship

[00:33:16] I was I'm a big romantic

[00:33:17] I'm like a super cheeseball

[00:33:18] and I remember at our five-year

[00:33:20] five-month anniversary

[00:33:21] I like me too

[00:33:22] no you're not

[00:33:24] no you're not

[00:33:25] I'm just trying to get it

[00:33:28] yeah

[00:33:29] no he has it even fake

[00:33:30] but I can be

[00:33:31] no stop

[00:33:32] this is a previous relationship

[00:33:33] and I know he's not listening to the podcast

[00:33:35] because he's never listened to one

[00:33:36] but we're still friends

[00:33:37] anyway

[00:33:39] but he's going to listen to it

[00:33:40] shush

[00:33:41] and he got upset

[00:33:42] he was like

[00:33:43] uncomfortable with my gesture

[00:33:44] romance

[00:33:45] and he was like

[00:33:46] five months

[00:33:47] like I'm not celebrating five months

[00:33:48] we get to five years

[00:33:49] then we're gonna celebrate

[00:33:50] and trust me

[00:33:51] I went all the way

[00:33:52] to five years

[00:33:53] and I waited

[00:33:54] and we were gonna get married

[00:33:56] and he didn't produce

[00:33:57] the ring

[00:33:58] he likes got scared

[00:33:59] and anyway

[00:34:00] we broke up

[00:34:01] here we are

[00:34:02] I gotta step down

[00:34:03] I gotta be stooped in

[00:34:04] yeah

[00:34:05] with more promises

[00:34:06] with more promises

[00:34:07] is that that delivered?

[00:34:08] yeah

[00:34:09] it's delivered

[00:34:10] two beautiful babies

[00:34:11] and lots of good stuff

[00:34:12] here we are

[00:34:13] but anyway

[00:34:14] I hadn't thought about it that way

[00:34:15] till you said it

[00:34:16] that I was waiting

[00:34:17] because

[00:34:18] I don't think he was doing that

[00:34:19] I don't think he's on bad person at all

[00:34:20] but I'm saying

[00:34:21] I was talking about me

[00:34:22] like I was waiting

[00:34:23] for the five years

[00:34:24] and then we'll have romance

[00:34:26] right

[00:34:27] then we'll have romance

[00:34:28] and then the issue becomes

[00:34:29] is that the future fake is attacked

[00:34:31] now listen

[00:34:32] every time somebody tells you

[00:34:33] something is gonna happen

[00:34:34] in the future

[00:34:35] for example

[00:34:36] like hey

[00:34:37] in about a year's time

[00:34:38] when I'm done with my graduate program

[00:34:40] we will move

[00:34:41] well the graduate program is happening

[00:34:43] they will move

[00:34:44] and they're not doing other future fake things

[00:34:46] like they're stating that

[00:34:47] I'm in school

[00:34:48] school needs to end

[00:34:49] I need to live in your school

[00:34:50] but in a year

[00:34:51] absolutely

[00:34:52] let's look into the options

[00:34:53] and in fact

[00:34:54] I'm applying for jobs there

[00:34:56] you're seeing evidence of them

[00:34:57] that's not future

[00:34:59] but anytime somebody talks about the future

[00:35:00] that's not future fake

[00:35:01] it's usually a pattern

[00:35:02] and sometimes

[00:35:03] it starts much lower stakes

[00:35:05] right

[00:35:06] it's a promise that

[00:35:07] this weekend we're gonna run that errand

[00:35:08] we can come

[00:35:09] Aaron doesn't get run

[00:35:10] or we're gonna do

[00:35:11] you know

[00:35:12] we're gonna do this on Thursday night

[00:35:13] or whatever

[00:35:14] it tends to be low stakes stuff

[00:35:15] and people just view that

[00:35:16] as the stuff of relationship

[00:35:18] but what happens is

[00:35:19] you blink your eyes

[00:35:20] you look up

[00:35:21] you're like

[00:35:22] well six months has passed

[00:35:23] and about 10% of the stuff

[00:35:24] that was supposed to happen

[00:35:25] that would have been important

[00:35:26] for this relationship

[00:35:27] was never delivered on

[00:35:28] we don't tend to be

[00:35:29] that actuarial

[00:35:30] about our relationships

[00:35:31] we don't tend

[00:35:32] we listen

[00:35:33] we're about our businesses

[00:35:34] we're about to

[00:35:35] profit and loss

[00:35:36] we look at quarterly reports

[00:35:37] but what we don't do is say

[00:35:38] like how am I feeling

[00:35:39] but what has this last three months

[00:35:41] been like in this relationship

[00:35:42] on my feeling

[00:35:43] seeing and heard

[00:35:44] and good

[00:35:45] you know, for most people

[00:35:46] the answer is like

[00:35:47] yeah, no, it's all good

[00:35:48] and everything's balanced

[00:35:49] but for people

[00:35:50] these unhealthy relationships

[00:35:51] that would be a pretty

[00:35:52] harsh wake-up call

[00:35:53] but it's why future faking works

[00:35:54] is that most of you

[00:35:55] don't keep the data

[00:35:57] like that

[00:35:58] and how does that relate

[00:35:59] to the healing process

[00:36:00] in terms of understanding

[00:36:01] one's backstory

[00:36:02] just with what I just shared

[00:36:03] in my story

[00:36:04] like my backstory

[00:36:05] of like looking for

[00:36:06] connection

[00:36:07] and romance

[00:36:08] and like my childhood

[00:36:09] and like covering up

[00:36:10] the fear of abandonment

[00:36:11] backstory

[00:36:12] can you elaborate on that?

[00:36:13] I think that

[00:36:14] again there's a whole chapter

[00:36:15] in the book

[00:36:16] that's really devoted

[00:36:17] to this idea of understanding

[00:36:18] your backstory

[00:36:19] because balancing

[00:36:20] this idea of backstories

[00:36:21] and narcissistic relationships

[00:36:22] is a little bit

[00:36:23] it's tricky

[00:36:24] it's important

[00:36:25] yes, and I'll tell you why

[00:36:26] number one

[00:36:27] and there's an absolute truth here

[00:36:28] I don't like this idea

[00:36:29] that there are certain people

[00:36:30] out there

[00:36:31] that are more vulnerable

[00:36:32] and more sophisticated people

[00:36:33] we're all vulnerable

[00:36:34] you both of you

[00:36:35] were, I've been

[00:36:36] right and we're three

[00:36:37] very different people

[00:36:38] and the reason

[00:36:39] we're all vulnerable

[00:36:40] is that their tactics

[00:36:41] and their strategies

[00:36:42] are so societally valued

[00:36:44] and they work

[00:36:45] they're charming

[00:36:46] they're charismatic

[00:36:47] they're confident

[00:36:48] they're bespoke to you

[00:36:49] yes, that's right

[00:36:50] exactly, that's exactly

[00:36:51] what you are

[00:36:52] they're bespoke to you

[00:36:53] that's so well-put nippy

[00:36:54] they listen to you

[00:36:55] they're tuned into you

[00:36:56] they're so

[00:36:57] they're so

[00:36:58] sort of temporarily attuned

[00:36:59] and that is the attachment dream

[00:37:01] right

[00:37:02] that there is that moment

[00:37:03] we feel so seen and heard

[00:37:04] that's the infant dream

[00:37:05] you guys are parents

[00:37:06] right?

[00:37:07] you remember how important

[00:37:08] it was that the child

[00:37:09] you're everything

[00:37:10] to the child

[00:37:11] their attachments are being made

[00:37:12] on all of those attuned moments

[00:37:14] and so

[00:37:15] that we're all vulnerable

[00:37:16] what?

[00:37:17] where

[00:37:18] where the

[00:37:19] roads veer

[00:37:20] is who gets stuck

[00:37:21] that's where

[00:37:22] the vulnerabilities matter

[00:37:23] right?

[00:37:24] so everyone's going to be drawn

[00:37:25] to the shiny thing

[00:37:26] people might wonder

[00:37:27] why are people drawn

[00:37:28] to vulnerable narcissists

[00:37:29] with all their victimhood

[00:37:30] and all that

[00:37:31] some people actually love the idea

[00:37:32] of a project

[00:37:33] they love to rescue people

[00:37:34] for them

[00:37:35] love is a sort of

[00:37:36] sullen, sad,

[00:37:37] sad person

[00:37:38] like nothing ever

[00:37:39] goals my way

[00:37:40] and I'm going to help you

[00:37:41] so it's a bit of a

[00:37:42] rescue project

[00:37:43] but for some people

[00:37:44] that is very exciting

[00:37:45] and very seductive

[00:37:47] and so

[00:37:48] you know

[00:37:49] it's bespoke

[00:37:50] it's different for everyone

[00:37:51] but we're all vulnerable

[00:37:52] not all of us are

[00:37:53] as vulnerable

[00:37:54] to getting stuck

[00:37:56] right?

[00:37:57] so the more secure

[00:37:58] attachment the person has

[00:37:59] from earlier in life

[00:38:00] they'll feel a little

[00:38:01] bit more stable

[00:38:03] on two legs

[00:38:04] to be able to say

[00:38:06] hmm

[00:38:07] this is not cool

[00:38:08] like this doesn't feel healthy

[00:38:09] or they'll have supports

[00:38:10] in their world

[00:38:11] but we'll say we're watching

[00:38:12] what's happening

[00:38:13] this relationship

[00:38:14] this doesn't seem good to you

[00:38:15] and there's a soft place

[00:38:16] for them to land

[00:38:17] that's obviously very different

[00:38:18] than somebody who might have

[00:38:19] grown up with an abusive

[00:38:20] environment

[00:38:21] or an invalidating

[00:38:22] environment

[00:38:23] where they're

[00:38:24] narrative

[00:38:25] their backstory

[00:38:26] as it were

[00:38:27] of I don't deserve better

[00:38:28] this is as good as it gets

[00:38:29] I'm lucky this person even shows up

[00:38:31] at least they are showing up

[00:38:32] I don't want to be abandoned

[00:38:34] and these back stories

[00:38:36] can be everything from

[00:38:37] whether or not we had

[00:38:38] narcissistic parents

[00:38:39] whether or not we experienced

[00:38:41] trauma

[00:38:42] or adversity in childhood

[00:38:43] it could have to do

[00:38:44] with some of the things

[00:38:45] inherent to ourselves

[00:38:47] are we optimistic

[00:38:48] optimistic people

[00:38:49] interestingly

[00:38:50] are a little bit more prone

[00:38:51] to getting stuck

[00:38:52] in narcissistic relationships

[00:38:54] because they're like

[00:38:55] everybody can change

[00:38:56] I refuse to believe

[00:38:57] that somebody can't

[00:38:58] change their behavior

[00:38:59] and they'll get caught on

[00:39:00] that optimistic thought

[00:39:01] loop for years

[00:39:02] thinking that something

[00:39:03] could get better

[00:39:04] people from happy families

[00:39:05] can sometimes get stuck

[00:39:07] in a way that's interesting

[00:39:08] because they believe

[00:39:09] in love

[00:39:10] their family might even say

[00:39:11] like oh they're

[00:39:12] sweetie

[00:39:13] you had such a good

[00:39:14] time at the beginning

[00:39:15] of your relationship

[00:39:16] just love them more

[00:39:17] you know what?

[00:39:18] I'll loan him money

[00:39:19] and it'll be you know

[00:39:20] maybe just having some

[00:39:21] financial pressure

[00:39:22] so the family

[00:39:23] might believe in the idea

[00:39:24] of healthy love

[00:39:25] they may not even

[00:39:26] have a paradigm

[00:39:27] for what a toxic

[00:39:28] relationship is

[00:39:29] I remember working

[00:39:30] with a happy family once

[00:39:31] I worked with the

[00:39:32] older parents

[00:39:33] of an adult

[00:39:35] daughter several times

[00:39:36] have actually done this

[00:39:37] work

[00:39:38] and I would struck every

[00:39:39] time where the parents had

[00:39:40] ridiculously happy

[00:39:41] marriage

[00:39:42] 40-50 years

[00:39:43] they didn't know

[00:39:44] anything else

[00:39:45] they thought marriage was

[00:39:46] great they thought

[00:39:47] family was great

[00:39:48] they thought love was

[00:39:49] great

[00:39:50] and then their kid

[00:39:51] meets a narcissistic

[00:39:52] big, shiny

[00:39:53] grandiose narcissist

[00:39:54] and when the thing

[00:39:55] headed towards divorce

[00:39:56] and the worst grandchildren

[00:39:57] these people

[00:39:58] literally thought

[00:39:59] their daughter

[00:40:00] would be able to go

[00:40:01] into family court and said

[00:40:02] he's really not a

[00:40:03] nice guy so I should have

[00:40:04] full classity

[00:40:05] and they were shocked

[00:40:06] when that didn't happen

[00:40:07] so there was a naive

[00:40:08] a day

[00:40:09] I was like oh that's

[00:40:10] how this works

[00:40:11] and they could

[00:40:12] and then obviously

[00:40:13] that was the whole

[00:40:14] weaponizing of the kids

[00:40:15] in a divorce multiple times

[00:40:16] I've seen this happen

[00:40:17] and these parents

[00:40:18] who are often in their

[00:40:19] 60s or 70s

[00:40:20] it's an absolute loss

[00:40:21] of innocence for them

[00:40:22] they said

[00:40:23] they didn't know

[00:40:24] there are people

[00:40:25] like this I'm like damn

[00:40:26] I would have loved

[00:40:27] to got the 70s thinking

[00:40:28] there was no such thing

[00:40:29] as a narcissist

[00:40:30] but it's actually

[00:40:31] really painful

[00:40:32] when it's your child

[00:40:33] who's encountering

[00:40:34] this for the first time

[00:40:35] so these back stories

[00:40:36] whether they're good

[00:40:37] things about us

[00:40:38] whether they're

[00:40:39] difficult parts

[00:40:40] of our histories

[00:40:41] whether we're prone

[00:40:42] to be a rescuer

[00:40:43] or an excuser

[00:40:44] or a justify

[00:40:45] or a forgiver

[00:40:46] people who are naturally

[00:40:48] tend towards forgiveness

[00:40:50] there's good

[00:40:51] research showing

[00:40:52] that this is great

[00:40:53] for forgiveness

[00:40:54] is the answer to everything

[00:40:55] hell no

[00:40:56] this is I am like

[00:40:57] anti-forgiveness

[00:40:58] when it comes to narcissism

[00:40:59] because we know

[00:41:01] that when you forgive

[00:41:03] a repeat offender

[00:41:05] so you forgive someone

[00:41:06] for doing something

[00:41:07] and they do the bad thing

[00:41:08] again

[00:41:09] it actually causes

[00:41:10] significant psychological harm

[00:41:12] to the forgiver

[00:41:13] we leave that piece out

[00:41:15] everything click for

[00:41:16] forgiveness

[00:41:17] it's all healing

[00:41:18] not so quick

[00:41:19] and because

[00:41:20] narcissistic people

[00:41:21] are repeat offenders

[00:41:22] forgiveness doesn't

[00:41:23] have a place here

[00:41:24] some people will say

[00:41:25] 20 years out of the

[00:41:26] relationship

[00:41:27] yeah I finally forgave them

[00:41:28] but I tell a lot of survivors

[00:41:30] many of you won't

[00:41:31] I say this as a survivor

[00:41:32] of multiple

[00:41:33] narcissistic relationships

[00:41:34] I've forgiven some

[00:41:36] there's some I will never

[00:41:37] ever forgive

[00:41:38] as long as I'm walking

[00:41:39] on this planet

[00:41:40] I will never forgive them

[00:41:41] for what they did

[00:41:42] don't keep me up at night

[00:41:43] though

[00:41:44] yeah you touched on a really

[00:41:45] good point

[00:41:46] one of the

[00:41:47] secret weapons

[00:41:48] that these narcissists

[00:41:49] have is

[00:41:50] that they're not

[00:41:51] just people

[00:41:52] can't project the

[00:41:53] depth of their

[00:41:54] narcissism into the

[00:41:55] person because they don't

[00:41:56] have it right

[00:41:57] people like to your point

[00:41:58] like if you don't have

[00:41:59] like if you don't even

[00:42:00] behave like that

[00:42:01] it's very hard for us

[00:42:02] to think that that

[00:42:03] yes that that's what was

[00:42:04] going on with Keith

[00:42:05] the entire time

[00:42:06] that was a very

[00:42:07] hard thing

[00:42:08] especially as we start

[00:42:09] finding out all

[00:42:10] other stuff

[00:42:11] but at the time

[00:42:12] we're like what

[00:42:13] this is what's going on

[00:42:14] in the psychology

[00:42:15] of the sky

[00:42:16] correct but I would argue

[00:42:17] the nippy though

[00:42:18] that we

[00:42:19] because we don't

[00:42:20] teach people about

[00:42:21] this they don't know

[00:42:22] now we can

[00:42:23] because we shouldn't

[00:42:24] have to be able to

[00:42:25] project the depth of

[00:42:26] in other words

[00:42:27] it doesn't need to be

[00:42:28] our refit-orn

[00:42:29] to recognize

[00:42:30] right we teach people

[00:42:31] this nobody's

[00:42:32] teaching people

[00:42:33] there's no

[00:42:34] important point

[00:42:35] in high school

[00:42:36] health classes where

[00:42:37] this is taught I

[00:42:38] actually approached some

[00:42:39] high schools they said

[00:42:40] this is too

[00:42:41] negative it's like my

[00:42:42] god drop calculus

[00:42:43] teach narcissism

[00:42:44] you would actually

[00:42:45] be saving more

[00:42:46] of the kids in this

[00:42:47] school who are

[00:42:48] never going to use

[00:42:49] calculus they don't

[00:42:50] teach it in most

[00:42:51] undergraduate courses

[00:42:52] in psychology

[00:42:53] don't teach it I was

[00:42:54] a rare bird that I taught

[00:42:55] it in my classes my

[00:42:56] poor students

[00:42:57] they were like everyone

[00:42:58] else is learning about

[00:42:59] schizophrenia but

[00:43:00] doctor

[00:43:01] no more nurses

[00:43:02] and I'm like I'm going

[00:43:03] to help you in the

[00:43:04] future and then

[00:43:05] graduate more importantly

[00:43:06] graduate training

[00:43:07] programs in psychology

[00:43:08] that train counselors

[00:43:09] and therapists zero

[00:43:10] when I went to UCL

[00:43:12] really it was the best

[00:43:14] educational experience

[00:43:15] of human being could have

[00:43:16] wanted clinical experience

[00:43:17] was great the word

[00:43:18] narcissism was not

[00:43:19] mentioned for the entire

[00:43:20] period of time I was in

[00:43:21] training from the day I walked

[00:43:22] into that graduate

[00:43:23] program to the day I finished

[00:43:24] my training

[00:43:25] hospital

[00:43:26] was a nurse is running

[00:43:27] it crazy

[00:43:28] no it wasn't that

[00:43:30] we don't talk about it

[00:43:31] and yet it is like this

[00:43:34] weird dark specter

[00:43:35] that actually impacts our

[00:43:37] ability to treat a whole

[00:43:38] range of mental health

[00:43:39] conditions

[00:43:40] we don't talk about it

[00:43:41] more importantly

[00:43:42] we don't talk about how

[00:43:43] it affects other people

[00:43:44] how would you know

[00:43:45] what narcissism is

[00:43:46] that Keith was a narcissist

[00:43:47] all of those things

[00:43:49] like why would anyone

[00:43:50] know that and that's why

[00:43:51] the education about

[00:43:52] some accurate education

[00:43:53] leaders of countries

[00:43:54] are narcissists

[00:43:55] yes they are more than

[00:43:57] ever more than they've

[00:43:58] ever been all

[00:43:59] authoritarian leaders

[00:44:00] are narcissistic

[00:44:01] kingdoms fall when

[00:44:03] the leaders when you have

[00:44:04] multiple or long term

[00:44:05] narcissistic leaders

[00:44:06] yeah

[00:44:07] and now a brief

[00:44:08] message from our

[00:44:09] little bit culty sponsors

[00:44:11] hello culty friends

[00:44:14] Sarah here

[00:44:15] as you probably know

[00:44:16] about us

[00:44:17] we are always on the

[00:44:18] go sometimes

[00:44:19] between the boy schedule

[00:44:20] the podcast and just

[00:44:21] life in general

[00:44:22] it feels like somebody

[00:44:23] permanently pressed the

[00:44:24] fast forward button

[00:44:25] we are still working

[00:44:26] on slowing down

[00:44:27] what we can but

[00:44:28] until we figured out

[00:44:29] how to bend the rules

[00:44:30] of space and time

[00:44:31] we still have to solve

[00:44:32] for snacks because

[00:44:33] no matter how busy

[00:44:34] or unbusy

[00:44:35] we are we still

[00:44:36] got to eat

[00:44:37] you know

[00:44:38] and as a mom

[00:44:39] I'm always searching

[00:44:40] for the healthy

[00:44:41] snacks on the go

[00:44:42] and to fill my

[00:44:43] pantry with things

[00:44:44] that the boys will

[00:44:45] actually eat.

[00:44:46] Luckily, chomps is

[00:44:47] that perfect snack

[00:44:48] and we can always

[00:44:49] keep them with us.

[00:44:50] We always have

[00:44:51] their meat sticks on

[00:44:52] hand in the car in my

[00:44:53] purse, my yoga bag

[00:44:54] in the boys'

[00:44:55] lunches, wherever they

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[00:45:45] time. Leaving

[00:45:46] a cult is stressful.

[00:45:48] Nippy's hair took

[00:45:49] a big hit. Mind

[00:45:50] too, to be honest.

[00:45:51] But that's just

[00:45:52] life. Stress

[00:45:53] and hormone fluctuations

[00:45:54] and all kinds of things

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[00:46:59] You've heard from our

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[00:47:01] back to a little bit Coltie

[00:47:02] shall we? Well, that's

[00:47:03] one of the things I

[00:47:04] think is the most

[00:47:05] important points. And then

[00:47:06] went into the healing

[00:47:07] process in a very tangible

[00:47:08] way because we talk a

[00:47:09] lot about okay, you have to

[00:47:10] heal from that. You've

[00:47:11] been abused. You've got

[00:47:12] to heal. What does that

[00:47:13] actually look like?

[00:47:14] You know, so where do

[00:47:16] you recommend for people

[00:47:18] who've been through these

[00:47:19] kind of things find

[00:47:20] a therapist and what to

[00:47:21] look for in a therapist

[00:47:22] to understand this part

[00:47:23] of the journey? So I'm

[00:47:24] going to actually turn this

[00:47:25] one around on you because

[00:47:26] the two of you have been

[00:47:27] threatened and I'm going

[00:47:28] to answer your question. When

[00:47:29] you were to look through

[00:47:30] your process of healing

[00:47:32] after all that you've

[00:47:33] experienced in a call

[00:47:34] to narcissistic system, if

[00:47:36] you were to zone in on the

[00:47:37] things that most

[00:47:38] facilitated your healing,

[00:47:39] what would those be? Well

[00:47:40] this was actually very

[00:47:41] self-reflected in reading

[00:47:42] your book because some

[00:47:43] of the things you suggested

[00:47:44] we did but just not

[00:47:45] with the helpful template

[00:47:46] of a book. Just from

[00:47:47] different things here and

[00:47:48] there, I think speaking

[00:47:49] to others survivors and

[00:47:51] being able to speak freely

[00:47:52] after we left after being

[00:47:53] oppressed and suppressed for

[00:47:55] so long to be able to be

[00:47:56] like, you know what? That

[00:47:57] thing that Nancy did, that

[00:47:58] was actually like really

[00:47:59] that was a really bitchy

[00:48:00] thing to say when she

[00:48:02] blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:48:03] Like we'd never

[00:48:04] would have said that before.

[00:48:05] That would have been

[00:48:06] sacrilegious, right?

[00:48:07] That would have been

[00:48:08] demoted and whatever.

[00:48:09] Like who knows what?

[00:48:10] But speaking freely, I

[00:48:11] mean just helped me a lot of

[00:48:12] things that I found for myself

[00:48:14] to like regulate my

[00:48:15] nervous system whether it

[00:48:16] is Epson, Salt, Baths

[00:48:17] or Hiking, Microdosing

[00:48:18] like things from me to

[00:48:19] chill the F out. And then

[00:48:21] also like the fresh start

[00:48:24] moving here was one final

[00:48:26] piece, you know getting

[00:48:27] out of the space where

[00:48:29] a lot of it happened in

[00:48:30] Vancouver where I can't

[00:48:31] even walk down the street

[00:48:32] without seeing somebody

[00:48:33] that either tried to

[00:48:34] recruit or I did recruit

[00:48:35] or family member of like

[00:48:37] it's just a lot of memories

[00:48:38] and good and bad, you know

[00:48:39] good and bad there.

[00:48:40] What else was most helpful?

[00:48:41] Talking to Dan Shaw right

[00:48:42] from the beginning who

[00:48:43] is an expert in

[00:48:44] narcissism and understanding

[00:48:45] the systems.

[00:48:46] You put a lot of good

[00:48:47] language to it.

[00:48:48] Yeah, you put a lot of

[00:48:49] good language to it.

[00:48:50] Things that I didn't

[00:48:51] understand for me was that

[00:48:52] YouTube video.

[00:48:53] Oh, and it was a

[00:48:54] YouTube video that was

[00:48:55] literally a cartoon

[00:48:57] and it was basically how

[00:48:58] you know you're an

[00:48:59] occult. And when I saw

[00:49:00] like the things.

[00:49:01] Oh, it's just a little

[00:49:02] later.

[00:49:03] It was it was tongue in

[00:49:04] cheek but I immediately

[00:49:06] had a full holistic view

[00:49:08] of how I had come off to

[00:49:09] other people about being

[00:49:10] righteous about what I was

[00:49:11] doing. And like that

[00:49:13] was a huge like shift

[00:49:14] where I felt it my gut.

[00:49:15] And then I read like for

[00:49:16] 60 90 pages a young

[00:49:19] you allow which is book.

[00:49:20] And I saw moral injury

[00:49:22] and that one sunk me.

[00:49:23] Yep.

[00:49:25] It's like education.

[00:49:26] It's like an

[00:49:27] I just went, oh my God.

[00:49:28] That's exactly what happened

[00:49:29] to me and then I went on

[00:49:31] just a journey of understanding

[00:49:32] it how I got

[00:49:33] understanding my blind spot

[00:49:34] and then it slowly evolved

[00:49:35] into like okay, I have

[00:49:36] wisdom now.

[00:49:37] I understand this.

[00:49:38] I know it looks like in

[00:49:39] the world and I can

[00:49:40] identify it and then I

[00:49:41] wanted to put language

[00:49:42] to what had happened to

[00:49:43] me. And so that when I see

[00:49:44] it somewhere else I can

[00:49:45] identify it and the podcast

[00:49:47] became out of it and I just

[00:49:48] try and stay in that lane.

[00:49:49] So in many ways, like

[00:49:50] you know, I'm not

[00:49:51] out of it and I just try

[00:49:52] and stay in that lane.

[00:49:53] So in many ways, like

[00:49:54] you said, Sarah, now it's

[00:49:55] all in a book, right?

[00:49:56] But the thing that you're

[00:49:57] sharing are very parallel to

[00:50:00] what's in the book.

[00:50:02] Talking to other people,

[00:50:04] having support who can

[00:50:05] listen to you in a validating

[00:50:07] way, having a therapist

[00:50:09] who gets a dance

[00:50:10] trust the best in the

[00:50:11] business.

[00:50:12] His book are to me, they

[00:50:14] are like scripture.

[00:50:15] I almost reread them every

[00:50:17] year because they're just

[00:50:18] so beautifully thought out

[00:50:19] Dr. Yonulolich's book is

[00:50:21] brilliant. I read those and

[00:50:22] they're, I think they're

[00:50:23] relevant also for tremendous

[00:50:25] relevance for narcissistic

[00:50:26] relationships. So you're

[00:50:27] talking about education

[00:50:28] and that might be watching

[00:50:29] videos that might be

[00:50:30] reading books and that

[00:50:31] education matters. You've got

[00:50:32] to get it in order to heal

[00:50:34] from it, right?

[00:50:35] You talked very interestingly

[00:50:37] Sarah about calming your

[00:50:38] nervous system, right?

[00:50:39] The sympathetic nervous

[00:50:40] systems, no joke, it's

[00:50:42] just, I always say it's like

[00:50:43] this great ADG system we

[00:50:45] have on our body that often

[00:50:46] malfunctioned. Like I have

[00:50:47] had sent those mouth

[00:50:49] button. I'm like, oh, come on

[00:50:50] now. There's nobody trying

[00:50:51] to get in. Calm the hell

[00:50:52] down.

[00:50:53] So it's that it's the

[00:50:55] alarm system that's only

[00:50:56] trying to do its job for

[00:50:58] you that we can receive with

[00:51:00] compassion. Like, oh, I see

[00:51:01] you. We can be curious about

[00:51:02] it. Like I see what I'm

[00:51:03] reacting to that we learn

[00:51:05] how our fight shows up.

[00:51:07] It's interesting. I was

[00:51:08] Dr. Janine Eficier who's

[00:51:10] phenomenal trauma

[00:51:12] theoretician and clinician.

[00:51:15] She did this beautiful work

[00:51:17] called Parns work, which

[00:51:18] actually Dan Shaw uses as

[00:51:19] clinical work. And what I

[00:51:21] really love about her theoretical

[00:51:23] frame is like for example,

[00:51:25] the fight response, right?

[00:51:26] We think of the you know,

[00:51:27] fight flight all of that in

[00:51:29] Dr. Fisher's model that

[00:51:31] fight response is actually

[00:51:32] things like recognizing

[00:51:34] the injustice. That's a part

[00:51:36] of a fight response, right?

[00:51:37] Because we're like our

[00:51:38] willingness to say like

[00:51:39] there were early even

[00:51:40] before you had kids

[00:51:41] number. There were days

[00:51:42] you're like, this is

[00:51:43] a cool like something here

[00:51:45] doesn't feel cool. That

[00:51:46] was a fight.

[00:51:48] Figure out what it was

[00:51:49] to you could feel it.

[00:51:51] Figure out what it was.

[00:51:52] Or you could feel it.

[00:51:53] And you felt it here before

[00:51:55] you got in here.

[00:51:56] And so that's

[00:51:58] automatic awareness being

[00:51:59] curious and instead of

[00:52:01] judging ourselves what's

[00:52:02] wrong with me, what a loser

[00:52:04] I am because I didn't say

[00:52:05] something. This is this

[00:52:06] nervous system of our sort

[00:52:08] of being an ally in the best

[00:52:10] way it can. And we

[00:52:13] can sort of embrace it

[00:52:14] really sort of infuse it

[00:52:15] with the self-compassion

[00:52:16] because a lot of folks

[00:52:18] who freeze, a lot of folks

[00:52:19] who are in cultic systems

[00:52:20] will get back to the moral

[00:52:21] injury. How could I have

[00:52:22] not said something for so

[00:52:24] long? What is wrong

[00:52:25] with me when we can put

[00:52:26] it in that context

[00:52:27] freezing and

[00:52:28] submitting.

[00:52:29] The survival response

[00:52:31] that it is just that

[00:52:32] the nervous system was doing

[00:52:33] what it was supposed to do.

[00:52:34] But it needs to be attended

[00:52:36] to breathing like you said

[00:52:37] walking but touching

[00:52:39] into our body even if

[00:52:41] it's just that grounding,

[00:52:42] touching your chest,

[00:52:43] feeling your pulse like

[00:52:44] it's here, it's all

[00:52:45] working. We're so

[00:52:46] disconnected from it being

[00:52:47] in nature. I always say

[00:52:49] rip the roof off.

[00:52:50] Like get out, I don't

[00:52:51] care if all you do is walk

[00:52:52] in the street for a minute,

[00:52:53] some air go out into

[00:52:54] the night sky,

[00:52:55] change the temperature,

[00:52:56] anything you can

[00:52:57] like to get to feel

[00:52:59] outside, ideally take a

[00:53:01] walk outside. All of those

[00:53:02] things really, really do

[00:53:04] matter that we can sort

[00:53:05] of get back sort of in

[00:53:07] sync with ourselves and

[00:53:08] pay attention to all

[00:53:09] of that. But it's a

[00:53:11] process and it's a process

[00:53:12] of very real grief that

[00:53:14] people forget this is not

[00:53:16] it's not a loss

[00:53:17] necessarily of a person

[00:53:18] though it may be but

[00:53:19] it's often a loss of

[00:53:20] ideals of hope,

[00:53:22] innocence of what you

[00:53:23] thought the world could be

[00:53:24] of you are different

[00:53:26] afterwards. You've also

[00:53:27] lost a former version of

[00:53:28] you like I said it's a

[00:53:29] loss of innocence and

[00:53:30] I that's why I was saying

[00:53:32] I envy those people

[00:53:33] talking to someone who had

[00:53:34] this really sort of

[00:53:36] warm, loving view of

[00:53:37] the world have very

[00:53:38] happily married

[00:53:39] parents and had a happy

[00:53:40] marriage. It was just

[00:53:41] recently I had this

[00:53:42] conversation. She had

[00:53:43] read my book, she said

[00:53:44] you know none of this was

[00:53:45] relevant to me but she

[00:53:46] said I saw the healing

[00:53:47] stuff actually allowed

[00:53:48] me to dig deeper and

[00:53:49] understand there were

[00:53:50] actually people in my life

[00:53:51] that were like this but

[00:53:52] by and large,

[00:53:53] women's life wasn't

[00:53:54] sort of riddled with this

[00:53:56] but when people really go

[00:53:57] through it, there was

[00:53:58] something either something

[00:53:59] get lost and we just

[00:54:01] have to adjust to that.

[00:54:02] You just touched on

[00:54:03] something really

[00:54:04] interesting when you said

[00:54:05] about adjusted.

[00:54:06] There's an injustice

[00:54:07] going on that you could

[00:54:08] feel and the mind

[00:54:09] fuckery of what we went

[00:54:10] through is we were in

[00:54:11] organization that you

[00:54:12] know that perpetuated

[00:54:13] the mind fuckery was we

[00:54:14] were in organization that

[00:54:15] flexed and boasted

[00:54:16] justice ethics and

[00:54:17] stuff like that.

[00:54:18] So there was a

[00:54:19] major confusion.

[00:54:20] Well, we were feeling

[00:54:21] couldn't have been right.

[00:54:22] We couldn't be aligned

[00:54:23] with something that was

[00:54:24] doing that.

[00:54:25] Well, also it was just

[00:54:26] a viscera. Like we were

[00:54:27] also trained well that's

[00:54:28] just a viscera.

[00:54:29] So it's really

[00:54:30] really really good

[00:54:31] awareness.

[00:54:32] Override the feeling.

[00:54:33] And that idea

[00:54:34] override the feeling

[00:54:35] that to me is always

[00:54:37] a cult 101.

[00:54:38] Right?

[00:54:39] I don't like, I mean

[00:54:40] like you are feeling

[00:54:41] right?

[00:54:42] This is a process and

[00:54:43] it will come

[00:54:44] and go but it is yours

[00:54:45] and nobody can make

[00:54:46] this be anything but

[00:54:47] what it is labeling

[00:54:48] something like a viscera

[00:54:49] and all of that.

[00:54:50] And then them sort

[00:54:51] of co-opting that's

[00:54:52] that process of

[00:54:53] subjugation that

[00:54:54] Dan Shaw writes about

[00:54:55] that in order to stay

[00:54:56] in a cultic or

[00:54:57] narcissistic system,

[00:54:58] you have to fully

[00:54:59] subjugate your

[00:55:00] entire sense of

[00:55:01] self and reality.

[00:55:02] It's like how

[00:55:03] you're a sense of

[00:55:04] self and reality.

[00:55:05] I almost viewed as

[00:55:06] like giving all your

[00:55:07] money to a really

[00:55:08] shady investment

[00:55:09] advisor. Like you

[00:55:10] give them every

[00:55:11] thing and they take

[00:55:12] it all. That's exactly

[00:55:13] what happens

[00:55:14] in the narcissistic

[00:55:15] relationship.

[00:55:16] It's the basis of

[00:55:17] identity politics as

[00:55:18] well loyalty to the

[00:55:19] party, that sort of

[00:55:20] thing.

[00:55:21] And then the perception

[00:55:22] that they are just,

[00:55:23] right? Because by

[00:55:24] definition all

[00:55:25] narcissistic relationships

[00:55:26] are unjust because

[00:55:27] they're asymmetric.

[00:55:28] There's always a

[00:55:29] power difference

[00:55:30] in these relationships.

[00:55:32] And I forgot who it was.

[00:55:33] I don't remember if

[00:55:34] it was Janja or if it

[00:55:35] was Jennifer Fried.

[00:55:36] Jennifer Fried.

[00:55:37] Dr. Jennifer Fried is

[00:55:38] actually, she's

[00:55:39] fascinating woman who

[00:55:40] writes about this idea

[00:55:41] of betrayal blindness

[00:55:42] which has relevance

[00:55:43] to cultic system.

[00:55:44] But what she talks

[00:55:45] about is the legs getting

[00:55:46] knocked out from under

[00:55:47] the table. I believe

[00:55:48] it's her who talks about

[00:55:49] it. Like you have

[00:55:50] four legs.

[00:55:51] Table can kind

[00:55:52] of still stand with

[00:55:53] three. These

[00:55:54] relationships keep

[00:55:55] knocking the legs out

[00:55:56] from under the table

[00:55:57] when you're down to two

[00:55:58] the whole thing falls.

[00:55:59] And that asymmetry

[00:56:01] is that in the nature

[00:56:02] of these relationships.

[00:56:03] And that they only

[00:56:04] reason they work is

[00:56:05] that one person holds

[00:56:06] a lot more

[00:56:07] the power and they do

[00:56:08] that through things like

[00:56:09] triangulation and creating

[00:56:10] factions and creating

[00:56:11] gossip and sort of

[00:56:12] but they hold all

[00:56:13] the keys. They've got

[00:56:14] all the passwords.

[00:56:15] And the flying monkeys.

[00:56:16] Exactly. But they have

[00:56:17] all the passwords.

[00:56:18] Yes. Well, again,

[00:56:19] I loved the just very

[00:56:20] tangible steps for healing

[00:56:23] and not going to give them

[00:56:24] all the way here because

[00:56:25] people need to read

[00:56:26] this book. It's so

[00:56:27] important and so helpful.

[00:56:28] Is there anything

[00:56:29] that you can do

[00:56:30] to get into a little

[00:56:31] bit about becoming

[00:56:32] more narcissistic

[00:56:33] resilient or

[00:56:34] firewalling or some

[00:56:35] like strategies moving

[00:56:36] forward?

[00:56:37] Yeah. Thank you for

[00:56:38] bringing that up because

[00:56:39] that's really what it is.

[00:56:40] Like, you go through

[00:56:41] a narcissistic

[00:56:42] relationship, you heal

[00:56:43] from it but then

[00:56:44] you're still living in the

[00:56:45] world and the

[00:56:46] probability is very high

[00:56:47] unless you're going to

[00:56:48] lock yourself in a room

[00:56:49] that you're going to run

[00:56:50] into more narcissistic

[00:56:51] people. And some of

[00:56:52] the elements of being

[00:56:53] narcissistic resistant.

[00:56:54] This also is not easy.

[00:56:55] I'm going to say

[00:56:56] sounds easy but

[00:56:57] I'll tell you why

[00:56:58] it's not.

[00:56:59] A simple example would

[00:57:00] be discernment, right?

[00:57:01] Discernment would be

[00:57:02] paying attention to

[00:57:03] the somatic

[00:57:04] sensations you have

[00:57:05] when you're with

[00:57:06] someone knowing

[00:57:07] everything you know about

[00:57:08] all the manipulation

[00:57:09] and gaslighting

[00:57:10] and all the other

[00:57:11] stuff and paying attention

[00:57:12] to that future

[00:57:14] fake and breadcrumbing

[00:57:15] all the stuff we talked

[00:57:16] about but paying attention

[00:57:17] to how you feel.

[00:57:18] You know, I'm always

[00:57:19] struck in this wellness

[00:57:20] infused age where

[00:57:21] and how people are so

[00:57:22] careful about what they

[00:57:23] eat and what they drink

[00:57:25] and how they exercise

[00:57:26] and what their

[00:57:27] bed is made up.

[00:57:28] And I'm like, you

[00:57:29] know, Afo, you could

[00:57:30] throw away all that

[00:57:31] if you could just get

[00:57:32] good at discerning

[00:57:34] toxic people. I'm

[00:57:35] like, you can drink

[00:57:36] bread bowl for breakfast

[00:57:37] while I care but

[00:57:38] you, if you could learn

[00:57:39] how to discern on the

[00:57:40] toxic people that's more

[00:57:41] important and yet people

[00:57:42] invest so much time

[00:57:43] like was this

[00:57:44] peach harvested

[00:57:45] from a tree that has

[00:57:46] like, Richard

[00:57:47] got the door.

[00:57:48] I'm like, oh my

[00:57:49] god, look at this

[00:57:50] right by it.

[00:57:51] Whatever, no, no,

[00:57:52] it's about the

[00:57:53] discernment.

[00:57:54] He's going to

[00:57:55] get tricky.

[00:57:56] Okay, just had this

[00:57:57] happen recently with a

[00:57:58] few clients. They

[00:57:59] learned it, they got

[00:58:00] it, they're practicing

[00:58:01] it, they're doing

[00:58:02] great but the push

[00:58:03] back they're getting

[00:58:04] when they're being

[00:58:05] discerning. It's

[00:58:06] like when they say, you

[00:58:07] don't even

[00:58:08] be mean. They're not

[00:58:09] even saying, no, no,

[00:58:10] this doesn't feel

[00:58:11] comfortable or that

[00:58:12] entire interaction we

[00:58:13] observed felt toxic. The

[00:58:14] people around them who

[00:58:15] don't get narcissism

[00:58:16] are saying, well,

[00:58:17] golly, you sound

[00:58:18] very cynical or aren't

[00:58:19] we a skeptic or who

[00:58:20] who like, you know, you're

[00:58:21] a little bit of a

[00:58:22] dark cloud. You're

[00:58:23] a little bit of a dark

[00:58:25] cloud. So you, if you

[00:58:26] become discerning, almost

[00:58:27] have to tolerate this

[00:58:28] characterization of you as

[00:58:30] this sort of like not

[00:58:32] sunny person. This is my

[00:58:33] absolute reality. Like

[00:58:35] sometimes you might

[00:58:36] hear a come to the angel

[00:58:37] of darkness again. You can

[00:58:38] call me whatever the hell

[00:58:39] you want. You can call

[00:58:40] me the devil for all I

[00:58:41] care. But I'm

[00:58:42] discernment is everything

[00:58:44] that allows people to say

[00:58:46] I'm trusting this feeling

[00:58:47] and the analogy I always

[00:58:48] give is I always tell

[00:58:50] folks when you come out

[00:58:51] of a narcissistic

[00:58:52] relationship, I don't care

[00:58:53] if it's a cult, I don't

[00:58:54] care if it's a family, I don't

[00:58:55] care if it's an intimate

[00:58:56] relationship. If the

[00:58:57] relationship lasted a

[00:58:58] year or longer, you need to

[00:58:59] have a year, a year of, if

[00:59:01] you will. When I say

[00:59:02] solitude, I'm not saying

[00:59:03] you go off into an

[00:59:04] ashram somewhere, I'm

[00:59:05] saying that you don't get

[00:59:06] into a new relationship. You

[00:59:08] don't start a new

[00:59:09] relationship. You really

[00:59:10] sort of focus on like who

[00:59:12] am I outside of these

[00:59:13] relationships building

[00:59:14] up your subjective

[00:59:16] indivigrated sense of

[00:59:17] self? You do not join

[00:59:18] new organizations or

[00:59:20] anything like that. When

[00:59:21] you get through that

[00:59:22] year and you really sort

[00:59:23] of get to know yourself,

[00:59:25] just that experience

[00:59:26] grounds people but that

[00:59:28] idea of people telling

[00:59:29] you there's something

[00:59:30] not quite right about

[00:59:31] you. And then when these

[00:59:32] folks after that year, they

[00:59:33] go out and start dating

[00:59:34] again, right? And the

[00:59:35] discernment kicks in

[00:59:37] and they'll say I don't

[00:59:38] like this. This feels

[00:59:39] red flaggy to me and

[00:59:40] they'll say I don't know. I

[00:59:43] don't think I want to spend

[00:59:44] more time with this person.

[00:59:45] I have no doubt that

[00:59:46] some of these folks are

[00:59:47] throwing back fish

[00:59:49] that were big enough to

[00:59:50] keep. It's okay. That's

[00:59:51] okay. I'd rather they did

[00:59:52] that than the other way.

[00:59:53] And over time, they'll get

[00:59:55] more discerning. So discernment

[00:59:57] is a big one. And part of

[00:59:58] that discernment, it's

[00:59:59] about how you share of

[01:00:01] yourself. Like I think

[01:00:02] that we are in a very

[01:00:03] scary time, right? And

[01:00:05] it's sharing always has a

[01:00:07] place but it's watch

[01:00:09] yourself. Check yourself

[01:00:10] like if you got some

[01:00:12] weird spamming, send me your

[01:00:14] bank details, email, you

[01:00:16] don't send your bank details.

[01:00:17] This is the equivalent of

[01:00:19] not sending your bank details

[01:00:20] to some weird scam

[01:00:22] email. And so when you first

[01:00:24] meet someone new, you take

[01:00:26] your time. Now I've had

[01:00:28] clients be told they were

[01:00:30] closed off. I'm like that

[01:00:32] is not closed off. That is

[01:00:33] not giving your money to

[01:00:34] somebody who says that

[01:00:35] some random person died in

[01:00:37] Russia and has a million

[01:00:38] dollars for you. Like it's

[01:00:40] at the whole new level of

[01:00:41] discernment and it gets

[01:00:42] to the point where we do

[01:00:44] sort of feel like we are

[01:00:46] suspicious in a way we've

[01:00:48] never been. Again, people

[01:00:49] close off, they call us

[01:00:50] suspicious. They use

[01:00:51] adjectives that don't feel

[01:00:53] good but that level and you

[01:00:55] end up not having to be the

[01:00:56] popular person. I've had

[01:00:57] this happen where there was

[01:00:59] a committee I was once on

[01:01:00] it was many years ago and

[01:01:01] there was one guy who came

[01:01:02] in the room. Energy of the

[01:01:03] room changed. Such a toxic

[01:01:06] guy. He was coming closer

[01:01:08] where I was saying I got up

[01:01:09] and I moved to a different

[01:01:10] part of the room. It was

[01:01:11] like a three day meeting.

[01:01:12] They were deciding on taxis

[01:01:13] to go to dinner. I saw

[01:01:14] I'm going into a taxi. I

[01:01:15] moved to another. I wouldn't

[01:01:16] sit near him at dinner and a

[01:01:17] colleague took me inside and

[01:01:18] like you know it's coming

[01:01:19] clear. Like you don't want

[01:01:20] to sit near the person. I

[01:01:21] said no, I don't trust

[01:01:22] that person. Just something

[01:01:23] in my bones. I don't like

[01:01:24] it. And they're like oh

[01:01:25] come on. We have to give

[01:01:27] everyone a chance. I said

[01:01:28] I don't. And so time went

[01:01:29] on. Man people just kind

[01:01:30] of cut me slack because it

[01:01:31] was like sort of a

[01:01:32] voluntary thing. And it was

[01:01:33] like three four years

[01:01:35] later. I mean sometimes

[01:01:36] you've got to hold in for

[01:01:37] a long time where these

[01:01:38] chickens come home to

[01:01:39] roost and this person

[01:01:40] because he's gotten

[01:01:41] involved in it. He was

[01:01:42] such a narcissistic person

[01:01:43] and everyone in the group

[01:01:44] involved in them

[01:01:45] honestly except for me. And

[01:01:46] in fact when I took

[01:01:47] someone to sit and said these

[01:01:48] are my problems with this

[01:01:49] person. They're like they

[01:01:50] were treating me as a

[01:01:51] gase. Right? That day he

[01:01:53] really went a bridge too

[01:01:55] far. Again very

[01:01:56] involved and did something

[01:01:57] very inappropriate and got

[01:01:59] called out very, very

[01:02:01] publicly. Let me tell you I

[01:02:03] was a smuggish bitch

[01:02:05] and a fat people because

[01:02:06] I was like I've started

[01:02:07] right.

[01:02:09] You know, you're right.

[01:02:12] You're right because if

[01:02:13] this doesn't feel safe to

[01:02:14] you, it is not safe. I

[01:02:16] don't care if everyone's

[01:02:17] telling you this person

[01:02:18] school. They they

[01:02:19] might feel perfectly

[01:02:20] safe. That's their

[01:02:21] problem but that willingness

[01:02:23] to give ourselves

[01:02:24] permission to say that

[01:02:25] the emperor is naked as

[01:02:27] hell is what will save

[01:02:29] people in terms of this

[01:02:31] narcissism resistance.

[01:02:32] And once you've been

[01:02:33] through it, you feel it

[01:02:34] in your bones. You

[01:02:35] really, really do.

[01:02:36] I think that's the

[01:02:37] name for this episode. The

[01:02:40] emperor is naked as hell.

[01:02:41] Part two with Dr.

[01:02:42] Little Money.

[01:02:44] And it's not that attractive

[01:02:46] to look at. I mean, if it

[01:02:47] was a hot emperor, I'd be

[01:02:48] like, I'm looking at you

[01:02:49] naked but keep walking

[01:02:50] there little guy anyway.

[01:02:52] Or bigger to panic. One

[01:02:54] of the things that was a

[01:02:55] real uh-huh for me and

[01:02:56] like I said admittedly

[01:02:57] I was like, okay, I've read

[01:02:58] so many books and narcissism

[01:02:59] like I okay. No, I was

[01:03:01] very looking forward to

[01:03:02] talking to you, but I

[01:03:03] wasn't sure how much more

[01:03:04] I would learn.

[01:03:05] Given that there's so much

[01:03:07] out there on narcissism,

[01:03:08] fair, right? One of the

[01:03:09] things I was like, oh my

[01:03:10] god, this is so helpful

[01:03:12] is looking at cognitive

[01:03:13] dissonance and how we can

[01:03:15] dismantle that with

[01:03:16] understanding all the

[01:03:17] multiple truths. Can you

[01:03:18] explain that a little bit?

[01:03:19] Cognitive dissonance

[01:03:20] and multiple truths.

[01:03:21] So, you know, Sarah,

[01:03:22] you bring up this idea

[01:03:23] of multiple truths, which

[01:03:24] to me is one of the

[01:03:25] jewels in this book, right?

[01:03:26] It was one of those

[01:03:27] little things. You know,

[01:03:28] it's like so much magic

[01:03:29] happens in the therapy

[01:03:30] room, you know, and it's

[01:03:31] a, this is one of

[01:03:32] the things that

[01:03:33] it was one of those

[01:03:34] magic that happened

[01:03:35] over and over again.

[01:03:36] And I think we live in a

[01:03:37] world where the way news

[01:03:38] is delivered, and internet

[01:03:39] works, and social

[01:03:40] media works is we want

[01:03:42] simple, quick, five ways

[01:03:45] to know you're in love, three

[01:03:47] ways to the four ways

[01:03:48] to that, right?

[01:03:49] And it's nothing

[01:03:51] nothing in the world of

[01:03:52] mental health or

[01:03:53] psychology, human

[01:03:54] beings is ever that simple.

[01:03:56] And the thing that makes

[01:03:57] narcissistic relationships

[01:03:58] and cognitive

[01:03:59] dissonance in any form

[01:04:00] is that you have to

[01:04:01] say that's the

[01:04:04] kind of problem.

[01:04:05] And I think that's why

[01:04:07] we are thinking in

[01:04:08] terms of cognitive

[01:04:09] dissonance, and cognitive

[01:04:10] dissonance in any form

[01:04:11] so difficult is that so

[01:04:12] many things are true at

[01:04:13] the same time. Human

[01:04:14] beings don't do well with

[01:04:15] cognitive inconsistency.

[01:04:17] We don't like it.

[01:04:18] And it makes us feel

[01:04:19] tense. And that

[01:04:20] tension makes us uncomfortable

[01:04:22] so when we're uncomfortable

[01:04:23] what do we want to do?

[01:04:24] We want to make ourselves

[01:04:25] comfortable, which means

[01:04:26] getting rid of

[01:04:27] the tension, getting rid

[01:04:28] of the inconsistency.

[01:04:29] So that's what cognitive

[01:04:30] to the dinner, I've heard that's not a very good restaurant.

[01:04:33] Because it would be terrible to think

[01:04:34] that they're about to have the best meal of the year

[01:04:36] and you can't go cause your kids

[01:04:38] and you can't really walk around saying,

[01:04:39] I hate my kids.

[01:04:41] And so as you land on like I don't,

[01:04:43] you know, I've heard the food's not very good.

[01:04:46] It's a good justification.

[01:04:47] It's a justification to remove that tension.

[01:04:50] Well, one of the challenges is not quite as simple

[01:04:52] as restaurants and babysitting, right?

[01:04:54] It's a far more complex issue

[01:04:56] and where people struggle.

[01:04:58] We even go back to moral injury.

[01:05:00] People feel like they're bad people.

[01:05:02] If they're thinking or saying bad things about their family

[01:05:05] or their friends or their spouse

[01:05:07] or their things that matter to them,

[01:05:09] they feel like bad people.

[01:05:11] They feel disloyal when they're doing that

[01:05:13] even when it's warranted.

[01:05:15] So one thing I've done with clients initially

[01:05:17] we just did with a piece of paper.

[01:05:18] Sometimes we did it on sort of zoom chat

[01:05:20] when it all went virtual

[01:05:22] but sometimes they do it on their own now

[01:05:23] which is we kind of literally kind of

[01:05:27] what you call brainstorm, a list and say,

[01:05:29] let's write out everything that's true

[01:05:30] about this relationship and you'll get lists like,

[01:05:33] I have a mother.

[01:05:34] I'm supposed to love my mother.

[01:05:36] I think my love my mother.

[01:05:38] My mother is a bitch.

[01:05:39] My mother is manipulative.

[01:05:41] My mother turns me in my sister against each other.

[01:05:43] My mother was never present when I was young.

[01:05:46] Sometimes I think my life would be easier

[01:05:47] if my mother is dead.

[01:05:49] I wish I loved my,

[01:05:50] and so you see how it all stacks up

[01:05:52] and the clients like,

[01:05:53] no wonder I'm such a mess

[01:05:55] because I love her.

[01:05:56] I hate her.

[01:05:57] She ruined me sometimes

[01:05:58] I wish she didn't exist.

[01:06:00] Oh my God, what a kind of person says that.

[01:06:02] And when the client sees the multiple truths all stacked up,

[01:06:06] it actually believe it or not

[01:06:08] instead of confusing them more,

[01:06:09] gives them tremendous grace

[01:06:12] and says,

[01:06:13] of course this is awful and terrible.

[01:06:16] And then in therapy what we do is we take that apart

[01:06:18] and we talk about number one,

[01:06:21] you know, it's okay to say those forbidden things

[01:06:23] like, oh, which this person didn't exist

[01:06:24] or wasn't in my life.

[01:06:25] It's not like the client is not harmful.

[01:06:28] They're just saying I just wish I never had to deal with them again.

[01:06:31] But this long list shows them,

[01:06:32] I love them, I hate them.

[01:06:35] They hurt me.

[01:06:36] I can't stand them.

[01:06:37] I'm supposed to like them.

[01:06:39] And when the client digs into that,

[01:06:42] they are then able to see because a lot of people will say,

[01:06:44] why is this radical acceptance thing taking me so long?

[01:06:47] Why am I not healing faster?

[01:06:49] And it's also painful

[01:06:50] because there's people out there

[01:06:51] who say in six weeks,

[01:06:51] I'll help you heal from your narcissistic relationship.

[01:06:54] Like, damn, if you could do that

[01:06:55] I would be thrilled to sign me up.

[01:06:57] It doesn't work that way.

[01:06:58] So that's one way to break through the dissonance

[01:07:01] is to actually be with the dissonance

[01:07:04] and see what it is.

[01:07:05] And I've just like that person to say,

[01:07:07] like how are you feeling knowing

[01:07:08] that they're having a great meal in your home with the kids?

[01:07:11] And the person might say,

[01:07:12] I resent my kids right now

[01:07:13] and that's an awful feeling

[01:07:14] and we could run with that feeling because that's okay.

[01:07:17] And once you can say it's okay to have any feeling,

[01:07:20] then the person can start then clearing the decks

[01:07:23] and seeing the clarity of this relationship

[01:07:25] with their mother has been unhealthy.

[01:07:27] Their mother was not present when they were young

[01:07:30] and although they have a million reasons

[01:07:32] for why they know that's why their mother

[01:07:33] was the way they were,

[01:07:34] ultimately they were hurt by their mother

[01:07:36] and that's the truth of the matter.

[01:07:38] Backstories don't excuse abuse.

[01:07:41] So when a narcissist person says,

[01:07:43] I had a terrible start in life,

[01:07:44] I was bullied, I was this,

[01:07:46] I was that I'm sad for them,

[01:07:48] I really am, that's terrible.

[01:07:49] It's not a license to go harm other people

[01:07:52] and the field of mental health

[01:07:54] and the world at large has rationalized

[01:07:56] narcissistic behavior by saying,

[01:07:58] but this, but that, you know what?

[01:08:00] If they are a sentient,

[01:08:02] the ambulatory human being,

[01:08:03] they can go get help

[01:08:04] because everyone else is getting help

[01:08:06] because of the narcissistic folks

[01:08:07] they can get their ass into an therapist's office too.

[01:08:09] That's great point.

[01:08:10] What does that person's journey look like

[01:08:12] if they have self-awareness

[01:08:13] that they do some of these patterns

[01:08:15] and they want to,

[01:08:16] I'm not talking about a Keith obviously

[01:08:17] but like somebody who sees themselves in the spectrum

[01:08:20] and wants to dig in,

[01:08:21] what is that a different book?

[01:08:23] Maybe.

[01:08:24] It's a different book and it's not a book

[01:08:25] I'm gonna write, there's, you know listen.

[01:08:27] I would, you know what one, it's interesting.

[01:08:29] And the last year I've been doing a lot more lecturing

[01:08:31] on addiction and narcissism,

[01:08:33] addiction and narcissism overlap

[01:08:35] something like 50, 60% of the time,

[01:08:37] a lot of overlap.

[01:08:38] In fact, the construct of the dry drum,

[01:08:40] you're true, you've heard of the idea

[01:08:41] of the dry drum, the dry drum,

[01:08:42] you're just a narcissist, right?

[01:08:43] A person is not fully sober

[01:08:45] and fully recovered until they've addressed their narcissism.

[01:08:48] If you read the big book,

[01:08:49] you go to 12-step,

[01:08:50] read the big book, book on narcissism.

[01:08:52] It's not even about addiction.

[01:08:53] So it's very fascinating to me how in some ways,

[01:08:55] some people argue 12-step may actually be the,

[01:08:58] because 12-step done right requires humility,

[01:09:01] accountability, addressing character defects,

[01:09:04] making genuine amends,

[01:09:06] not expecting people to come around,

[01:09:08] losing the defensiveness, losing the ego.

[01:09:10] That's all treatment of narcissism, right?

[01:09:12] And we see how well that works for folks.

[01:09:14] I mean when you,

[01:09:15] the people around town who tout being sober

[01:09:17] and like no, no, no, you're not,

[01:09:19] you are still as defended as an addict.

[01:09:21] So don't give me this, you're sober,

[01:09:23] you're not drinking, I'll give you that,

[01:09:25] are you sober? No.

[01:09:26] And that's definitely more of sort of the 12-step in language,

[01:09:29] but I think that all of these different models

[01:09:31] would argue that, listen,

[01:09:32] I don't even wanna talk in terms of unicorns

[01:09:34] because anyone listening so they might be

[01:09:36] my presence of unicorns.

[01:09:37] There are self-aware narcissistic folks out there

[01:09:39] and it gets interesting

[01:09:40] because the self-aware narcissist is an interesting conundrum

[01:09:44] because just because they are self-aware,

[01:09:49] doesn't mean that they're going to make the changes they need.

[01:09:51] They need to make it.

[01:09:52] And in fact, their self-awareness can make them self-righteous.

[01:09:55] Like I'm aware of my narcissism

[01:09:57] because I'm also mentally healthy

[01:09:59] but I've got it under command of them.

[01:10:00] Of course they would.

[01:10:01] No, you don't.

[01:10:02] Because what you're healing from,

[01:10:05] cause a lot of narcissistic folks,

[01:10:06] especially in LA are therapy junkies.

[01:10:09] They've got the therapist,

[01:10:11] they've got the life coach,

[01:10:12] they've got the psychedelic practitioner,

[01:10:15] they've got the men's group,

[01:10:17] the this group, the that group.

[01:10:19] And like they're whole, they meditate.

[01:10:22] Oh, they're on a juice cleanse.

[01:10:23] They're on a juice cleanse.

[01:10:24] Then they meditate.

[01:10:25] The meditations always near their beach house.

[01:10:27] I mean, they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[01:10:29] But the real work of it, right?

[01:10:32] Because narcissism does its harms to others

[01:10:35] by the reactivity they have in the moment.

[01:10:37] Not to obviously the things

[01:10:39] like the manipulation and all of that.

[01:10:41] It's the true, the genuine willingness

[01:10:44] in a compassionate, authentically empathic way

[01:10:48] to be aware of the other

[01:10:50] without dismissiveness, without contempt

[01:10:54] and not viewing the other as an egothread.

[01:10:56] I ain't seen that happen in my career.

[01:10:58] I have not.

[01:10:59] Where I have seen it kind of sort of happen

[01:11:01] is when you have a person who has a lot of narcissism

[01:11:04] but they have pretty severe PTSD

[01:11:06] cause those two things can look similar.

[01:11:08] They get really good trauma-informed treatment.

[01:11:11] They do their trauma and they address the PTSD

[01:11:15] but they also do address the narcissistic stuff.

[01:11:18] But with that trauma as part of the narcissistic origin,

[01:11:21] there's a lot more hope for a better outcome for them

[01:11:24] because there's a more better treatment target.

[01:11:27] But for other folks where it's not as clear

[01:11:30] as some of those early trauma targets,

[01:11:32] I think those other narcissistic clients,

[01:11:34] I'm not seeing the outcomes.

[01:11:35] Listen, I've worked for a long time,

[01:11:36] 20% of my clinical practice was narcissistic clients.

[01:11:40] Those hours made me feel like I was a shitty therapist.

[01:11:42] Like the needle would move,

[01:11:44] but the little bit the needle would move,

[01:11:46] I'd notice it because I'm looking at it.

[01:11:48] It's like I'm looking at it under a microscope

[01:11:50] but the people in their lives absolutely were not noticing it

[01:11:54] and sometimes, cause I've largely shut down

[01:11:56] most of my practice with the narcissistic clients

[01:11:59] when I come back and I won't do, I give them referrals

[01:12:02] but they'll sometimes tell me their stories

[01:12:04] all these years later, it's really not changed.

[01:12:07] They're doing exactly the same things

[01:12:09] they may dress it up a little differently.

[01:12:11] But listen, I'm gonna put it to you

[01:12:13] the way I put it in the book.

[01:12:14] Sarah, you have a personality,

[01:12:15] maybe you have a personality,

[01:12:17] Dr. Romani has a personality, right?

[01:12:19] I know what mine is, I'm an agreeable introvert.

[01:12:21] That's all of me put together.

[01:12:24] I'm friendly and I'm nice to the president Starbucks

[01:12:26] and I don't honk at people in traffic

[01:12:28] and I always want to be alone

[01:12:29] and I'm so happy alone and I'm soozed

[01:12:32] and I love it and it makes me happy

[01:12:34] and I'm exhausted when I go to social events.

[01:12:36] What that tells me, if tomorrow someone said to me,

[01:12:39] Romani, you would be a lot more successful.

[01:12:42] If you were a bit more disagreeable,

[01:12:44] a bit more assertive, maybe even aggressive,

[01:12:46] you made your needs known,

[01:12:48] you put your needs ahead of other people,

[01:12:50] you sort of bossed your staff around

[01:12:51] a little bit differently like

[01:12:52] you could do this and you could level up,

[01:12:54] you could get to the next level,

[01:12:55] you got the content, you got it all.

[01:12:57] I couldn't do it.

[01:12:58] I've tried it every so often,

[01:12:59] a little bit of swagger

[01:13:00] and then I feel like I'm gonna throw up.

[01:13:01] I try to start your life.

[01:13:02] For some nights I have to go out to dinner for three nights.

[01:13:04] I'm similar.

[01:13:05] You would think I have the flu by that weekend.

[01:13:07] I'm a rack and so what is telling me

[01:13:10] is that no more could you turn me

[01:13:12] into a disagreeable extrovert?

[01:13:14] Why would you be able to turn the narcissistic person

[01:13:17] into an empathic, cuddly bunny?

[01:13:18] I can't change and in fact,

[01:13:20] well do me a world of good if I made some of these changes.

[01:13:23] It would be better for me to be out and network more.

[01:13:25] I know that this would be better for me.

[01:13:27] I'm not able to do it.

[01:13:29] I don't want to do it

[01:13:29] and I have a very flexible personality.

[01:13:31] Narcissistic person's personality is rigid like cement.

[01:13:34] I can't change, they can't change.

[01:13:36] So why the hell am I holding them to that standard?

[01:13:38] You said people with PTSD can evolve their narcissists.

[01:13:40] I'm just wondering is because the PTSD is coupled

[01:13:43] with humility because it's normally a humiliating event.

[01:13:46] Trauma is coupled with a little bit of humility.

[01:13:48] Well what we see though, Nippy,

[01:13:50] is that in some folks with PTSD

[01:13:52] and we saw this quite a bit

[01:13:54] with sort of veterans returning from wars

[01:13:56] is there'd be a clipping off of their original range

[01:14:01] and that would be experienced by others

[01:14:03] as a truncated empathy.

[01:14:05] Does that make sense?

[01:14:06] And so how much of that kind of narrowing

[01:14:09] that apathetic almost distant coldness was the trauma

[01:14:13] and how much of that was a narcissism?

[01:14:15] A lot of what we'd want to know is who went to war?

[01:14:17] What was this person like before they enlisted

[01:14:19] or were all into war?

[01:14:21] Because sometimes they say,

[01:14:22] this is not the person who came back.

[01:14:24] That was then we're talking more PTSD

[01:14:26] but if the person who went to battle was a dick,

[01:14:28] then what we're seeing is

[01:14:29] we might be seeing both patterns play out.

[01:14:31] But for those folks where people say,

[01:14:33] gosh they're so cold, they're so cut off,

[01:14:34] but they have the context of,

[01:14:36] for example, of war some other significant trauma.

[01:14:38] Like I said, that's where I'm seeing

[01:14:40] the narcissistic folks who have that trauma history

[01:14:42] and they commit to good legitimate trauma-informed therapy

[01:14:47] with a legitimate licensed clinician who knows trauma.

[01:14:50] I think that's the one group I see hope with

[01:14:52] and that's been my experience too.

[01:14:54] Segues Sarah here.

[01:14:55] Segues Sarah.

[01:14:56] Speaking of all of that,

[01:14:57] where do you recommend since you're not taking private clients?

[01:15:00] Read your book obviously.

[01:15:01] What specific support groups, communities,

[01:15:03] other resources for people seeking connection,

[01:15:05] understanding healing?

[01:15:06] We have a healing program for survivors

[01:15:08] of narcissistic abuse.

[01:15:09] It's not a substitute for therapy.

[01:15:11] I mean, people have more severe experiences

[01:15:13] that should be complemented with therapy.

[01:15:15] I have to say we have a very carefully curated

[01:15:18] and moderated community platform.

[01:15:20] A lot of people offer referrals there.

[01:15:22] I'm about to launch next weeks

[01:15:24] for a big continuing ed company,

[01:15:26] a 36 hour training on narcissistic therapists

[01:15:30] who want to work with clients experiencing narcissistic

[01:15:32] abuse, 36 hours.

[01:15:34] You can get a certification at the end as that runs through.

[01:15:37] So by the end of 2024,

[01:15:38] we're going to have the list of people

[01:15:40] who've done that program and that will then be able

[01:15:42] to go into a database for those therapists

[01:15:44] who want to participate.

[01:15:45] So at least we'll know people at least got 36 hours

[01:15:47] of exposure to some of these issues

[01:15:49] and care deeply about meeting these clients

[01:15:51] and not shaming them,

[01:15:52] but validating them and upholding their experience.

[01:15:55] Please share that information

[01:15:56] so we can share it with our network too.

[01:15:57] So anything else that we missed

[01:15:59] or anything you want to share

[01:15:59] and any misconceptions or burning things?

[01:16:01] Questions you asked were great.

[01:16:03] I think above all else,

[01:16:05] because I am like I said,

[01:16:06] a lot of people say I'm the most hopeless woman in that room.

[01:16:09] In this particular case,

[01:16:10] the hope I have for survivors

[01:16:12] of narcissistic relationships is unsurpassed.

[01:16:15] I am seeing survivors do amazing things every day.

[01:16:18] People who once they're led out

[01:16:20] of these mental prisons are creating

[01:16:22] their making music and film

[01:16:24] and visual art who are going back to school,

[01:16:27] who are starting careers they never dreamed

[01:16:29] they would have who are traveling alone

[01:16:31] for the very first time,

[01:16:32] who are finding their voice in a million different ways,

[01:16:35] even things as simple as,

[01:16:37] I don't know, going out to dinner by themselves,

[01:16:39] meeting up with friends,

[01:16:41] you can see the difference.

[01:16:42] I get these emails all the time

[01:16:44] and it is I know what's possible.

[01:16:47] People fall in love,

[01:16:48] people develop healthy friendships

[01:16:50] and relationships again, it happens.

[01:16:52] And I think that so much of the narrative here is doom and gloom.

[01:16:56] It's not doom and gloom

[01:16:57] if we can get people out of these situations,

[01:16:59] but this narcissism stuff all around us,

[01:17:01] the discernment and being able to give yourself permission

[01:17:05] to live in your individuated self,

[01:17:08] to honor yourself,

[01:17:09] to recognize those in authentic you buried

[01:17:12] under all that programming

[01:17:13] of a narcissistic relationship.

[01:17:15] The freedom is there

[01:17:16] and I've seen it unleashed in people all over the world.

[01:17:18] I love the Nelson Mandela quote that you had in your book.

[01:17:22] There's nothing like returning to a place

[01:17:24] that remains unchanged

[01:17:25] to find the ways you yourself have changed.

[01:17:28] And that lines up with how the book ends,

[01:17:29] which is the hero's journal,

[01:17:30] which is when you go through what you've got,

[01:17:33] what the two of you have gone through

[01:17:34] or many survivors have gone through

[01:17:36] that you really did go through hero's journey

[01:17:38] and when you finally did return, quote unquote home,

[01:17:41] you returned changed

[01:17:42] and that place might have remained the same,

[01:17:44] but you were incredibly different

[01:17:45] and I think that's the thing

[01:17:46] that all survivors need to remember.

[01:17:49] It's one of the reasons I like going back

[01:17:51] to returning to Vancouver

[01:17:52] because we go back once or twice a year

[01:17:55] and I'm like, oh my God, I'm different.

[01:17:57] And dare I say that this book is really the self

[01:18:00] or the antidote to all the future faking that we endured

[01:18:03] because this is future real hope.

[01:18:04] This is the real hope

[01:18:06] and the template to that.

[01:18:07] Thank you for that gift.

[01:18:09] Thank you, that was awesome.

[01:18:10] Thank you, thank you.

[01:18:11] So wonderful to see you too.

[01:18:14] Like what you hear, do you?

[01:18:15] Give us a rating or review and subscribe on iTunes.

[01:18:18] Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content

[01:18:21] out there.

[01:18:22] Smash that subscribe button.

[01:18:24] You know you want to.

[01:18:28] We love us some Dr. R.

[01:18:30] Be sure to get her book.

[01:18:31] It's not you

[01:18:32] and you will be glad you did.

[01:18:33] Link is in the show notes.

[01:18:35] And you know what?

[01:18:36] We're going to put this episode in our resource series.

[01:18:38] Do it.

[01:18:39] A thing we're offering new on our website

[01:18:40] a little bit callty.com slash resources.

[01:18:43] It's going to be a list of our top 10 episodes

[01:18:46] that we think are the most helpful to people

[01:18:48] who are looking for many therapy sessions

[01:18:50] and want to hear about different aspects

[01:18:52] of recovery after cultic abuse.

[01:18:54] These things are woven throughout our whole catalog,

[01:18:56] but very specifically this is an episode for narcissism

[01:19:00] or an episode about recovering from narcissism

[01:19:02] or for example, our episode of Rachel Bernstein

[01:19:04] about how family members can deal with loved ones

[01:19:07] potentially lost to the clutches of cultic abuse,

[01:19:10] hashtag.

[01:19:11] We're not therapists either.

[01:19:12] So we're not therapists, but we know some really good ones.

[01:19:15] You know what else is many therapy sessions?

[01:19:17] What may be hanging out with us on Patreon.

[01:19:20] Yeah.

[01:19:21] Come over there and find us at patreon.org.

[01:19:23] Although we're not therapists.

[01:19:24] No slash a little bit callty for every episode's weekly bonus

[01:19:28] drops and even some swanky perks like limited edition swag

[01:19:32] and invites to monthly zoom sessions, Q&As with us.

[01:19:35] Some people don't know what Patreon is

[01:19:37] and I get it.

[01:19:38] Got pencils anyone?

[01:19:39] Yes.

[01:19:39] Pencils, man.

[01:19:40] We got pencils.

[01:19:41] I know.

[01:19:42] Pencils for survivors.

[01:19:43] That's so great.

[01:19:44] That's a hot ticket item for inner circle members.

[01:19:47] And we answer a lot of questions.

[01:19:49] We listen to voice mails.

[01:19:50] We share what's happening in the cultiverse.

[01:19:52] It's much more casual and it's a lot of fun.

[01:19:54] It's coffee.

[01:19:55] It's coffee talk.

[01:19:56] It's coffee talk.

[01:19:57] It's fun and only on a little bit callty

[01:19:58] and it keeps this part in business.

[01:20:00] It's going to NPR vibe when you say

[01:20:02] where we talk like this.

[01:20:02] It sure does.

[01:20:03] Yeah.

[01:20:04] We announce our consonants really well.

[01:20:07] Thanks everybody.

[01:20:08] See you next time.

[01:20:09] I love it, culty.

[01:20:10] We'll be back soon.

[01:20:11] Shake and down to the depths of the ocean.

[01:20:15] I'm hanging on to the wind in my mouth.

[01:20:20] I like all I can leave but I know I won't.

[01:20:29] Thanks for listening everyone.

[01:20:30] We're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit

[01:20:34] culty now to discuss this episode.

[01:20:36] In the meantime, dear listener, please remember

[01:20:38] this podcast is solely for general informational

[01:20:41] educational and entertainment purposes.

[01:20:43] It's not intended as a substitute

[01:20:45] for real medical, legal or therapeutic advice.

[01:20:48] For cult recovery resources and to learn more

[01:20:51] about seeking safely in this culty world,

[01:20:53] check out a little bit culty.com slash culty resources

[01:20:56] and don't miss Sarah's TED talk called

[01:20:58] How Cult Literate Are You?

[01:21:00] Great stuff.

[01:21:01] A little bit culty is a trace 120 production

[01:21:03] executive produced by Sarah Edminton

[01:21:05] and Anthony Nippie Ames.

[01:21:06] In collaboration with producer Will Rutherford

[01:21:08] at Citizens of Sound and our co-creator

[01:21:10] and show chaplain slash bodyguard Jess Temple Tarty,

[01:21:13] our show writer is Holly Zedra

[01:21:15] and our theme song Cultivated Is By John Bryant.