Jules Hartley: “Breath of Fire” and the Cult of Kundalini Yoga (Part 1)

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:24] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:25] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:00:30] Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:38] Every week, we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:49] For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows? You could already be in a cult. If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out.

[00:01:02] We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware, this podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners. So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself.

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[00:01:22] Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:39] Welcome back, everybody, to A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:42] Today, we are diving into yet another spiritual movement slash yoga discipline with a culty dark side.

[00:01:50] Surprise, surprise.

[00:01:51] It's called Kundalini Yoga.

[00:01:53] We have done one episode already on the Rama Institute, the cult within the cult.

[00:01:58] And today we are looking at its roots.

[00:02:01] As one expert called Rama, a photocopy of a counterfeit bill.

[00:02:06] We love this metaphor.

[00:02:08] Today, we are pulling back the lens to look at that fake bill, the whole Kundalini shit show.

[00:02:13] Kundalini is popular with celebrities, so you know it's legit.

[00:02:18] It's an intensive form of yoga based on breathing and meditation and promotes clean living, just like celebrities.

[00:02:25] Sounds great, right?

[00:02:26] Except Kundalini has an appalling history, both past and recent.

[00:02:31] Kind of like some celebrities.

[00:02:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:34] See what I did there?

[00:02:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:36] Yeah.

[00:02:36] For some backstory, Kundalini came on the scene in the late 60s, brought in by a supposed guru called Yogi Bhajan,

[00:02:43] a.k.a. YB, a.k.a. many other things that we'll talk about in the episode.

[00:02:48] He founded the Healthy, Happy, and Holy Organization, or 3HO.

[00:02:54] It basically became a hippie cult.

[00:02:56] Yogi Bhajan enforced total control over his followers with the usual what they ate, what they wore, and when they slept routine.

[00:03:03] He even doubled as a matchmaker and told his followers who to marry.

[00:03:07] Despite his legit business income, like from Yogi T, he coerced his followers into giving him donations,

[00:03:12] cash, real estate, businesses, whatever they had.

[00:03:15] So, again, like with all episodes, trigger warning, because besides financial abuse,

[00:03:20] many followers in recent years have accused Bhajan of severe physical abuse, including rape.

[00:03:25] Children who went to his schools were beaten and brainwashed into becoming his future servants.

[00:03:30] Girls who attended were groomed to join his staff of secretaries, which actually meant joining his harem.

[00:03:37] Sound familiar, anyone?

[00:03:38] Yogi Bhajan died in 2004, but Kundalini Yoga lived on.

[00:03:42] Some of his followers branched out, starting their own studios.

[00:03:45] When it comes to the most severe culty abuse, the Rama Institute picked up where Bhajan left off.

[00:03:51] Okay, a little more backstory.

[00:03:53] In 2013, Rama was founded by Katie Griggs, who called herself Guru Jagat.

[00:03:58] Its popularity with LA celebrities became a big draw.

[00:04:01] But Guru Jagat wasn't only interested in promoting clean living and meditation.

[00:04:04] She demanded total obedience also.

[00:04:07] She dished out verbal abuse when her demands weren't met.

[00:04:09] She separated her followers from their families, creating a social bubble that was hard to escape from.

[00:04:14] Ultimately, the yoga itself became a form of control.

[00:04:17] The breathing exercises gave people a sort of high that made them susceptible to her influence.

[00:04:22] And, like Yogi Bhajan, she coerced money from her followers and charged high fees for never-ending workshops and classes.

[00:04:28] We've been there.

[00:04:29] Though Jagat died in 2021, the Rama Institute is still going.

[00:04:33] To learn more about Rama and Katie, a.k.a. Guru Jagat, check out our podcast with Charlotte Medlock from Season 6.

[00:04:40] Our guest today is Jules Hartley, an actress and naturopathic physician who left Rama in 2017.

[00:04:46] She's featured in the new HBO docuseries Breath of Fire.

[00:04:50] Yes, of course, we watched it.

[00:04:52] It's about Guru Jagat, Yogi Bhajan, and the corruption behind Kundalini Yoga.

[00:04:57] Cannot recommend it enough.

[00:04:59] Very thorough documentary.

[00:05:00] That said, since the recording of this episode, we've been in touch with other ex-members of Kundalini who believe that there were very important elements missing from the documentary.

[00:05:10] And we hope to cover their stories in future episodes of A Little Bit Cult-y.

[00:05:15] Jules witnessed the corruption firsthand.

[00:05:16] She's here to tell us about her time in the whole Kundalini world and how she escaped its control.

[00:05:21] As a bonus, we'll also get into the media's portrayal of cults and their former followers.

[00:05:26] This is a good one.

[00:05:27] So, let's meet Jules Hartley.

[00:05:42] Jules, welcome to A Little Bit Cult-y.

[00:05:43] I'm just going to get right to you.

[00:05:45] How are you doing now that your personal trauma is part of a massive HBO docuseries?

[00:05:50] Yeah.

[00:05:51] What a strange experience, I'll tell you.

[00:05:54] I am not a victim.

[00:05:56] I am a thriving, surviving individual.

[00:06:00] And you're not getting paid for this.

[00:06:02] Let's just put that out there for anyone who's accusing you of rotting the whistleblower money train.

[00:06:07] Right?

[00:06:09] Yeah, I am not getting paid for this.

[00:06:11] Victim stories don't sell.

[00:06:13] Survivor and Thriver stories sell.

[00:06:15] And I did not get paid for the HBO docuseries.

[00:06:19] Nope.

[00:06:20] They do not pay.

[00:06:21] I got paid as a consultant, but I did not get paid for my actual on-camera time.

[00:06:29] They don't pay in documentaries.

[00:06:31] Nope.

[00:06:31] And it is a documentary.

[00:06:32] And I have not been paid for any of the podcasts that I've done.

[00:06:36] And I've done numerous ones at this point.

[00:06:38] So, yeah.

[00:06:39] Thanks for clarifying that.

[00:06:39] Yeah, for any Kudalini supporters out there that really want to, what's the word?

[00:06:45] Undermine, shame, discredit, Jules, I will verify that she's not getting paid.

[00:06:51] And furthermore, I'm not like trying to get famous off of this or trying to get, like, I'm now a doctor.

[00:06:56] I don't think that I'm going to be gaining patience by doing these podcasts.

[00:07:00] No.

[00:07:01] This is not my, like, this is not furthering my business.

[00:07:03] So you're doing this because you want people to know the truth about Yogi Bhajan and Katie Greggs, correct?

[00:07:09] Exactly.

[00:07:10] Okay.

[00:07:11] And other related, yeah.

[00:07:13] And other related.

[00:07:13] Other related shit show fiasco debacles related to the Kudalini 3-8 show.

[00:07:17] Well, that's important.

[00:07:19] It's important work.

[00:07:20] It is important.

[00:07:20] Yeah.

[00:07:21] And that's the payment, is knowing that you're doing something important.

[00:07:25] Am I right?

[00:07:26] All right.

[00:07:27] Let's kickstart it.

[00:07:28] Let's kickstart it.

[00:07:28] So your story is very much out there, right?

[00:07:31] It's in the doc and you've done a lot of podcasts.

[00:07:34] But let's sort of, before we get into the aftermath and everything that's happening now,

[00:07:37] bring our audience to this point.

[00:07:39] How did you get into Kudalini?

[00:07:41] What was the draw?

[00:07:41] What was the hook?

[00:07:42] What did you think you were signing up for?

[00:07:44] Yeah.

[00:07:45] So I was at a point in my life where I was experiencing a lot of, like, grief, a lot of

[00:07:50] fear.

[00:07:51] I was in my mid to late 20s.

[00:07:53] I had been through some really gnarly breakups.

[00:07:56] I'd experienced a death of friends, family members.

[00:07:59] I was in Los Angeles.

[00:08:00] I was fairly new to LA.

[00:08:02] LA is huge, overwhelming.

[00:08:04] I didn't have a support system there.

[00:08:06] And I did not have a spiritual or religious paradigm within which I was plugging in that

[00:08:13] I related to.

[00:08:14] I tried.

[00:08:15] I tried going to church again.

[00:08:16] I, you know, I was kind of searching for meditation, something that could kind of give

[00:08:24] me a framework within which I could understand some of these things that had been happening

[00:08:27] to me.

[00:08:28] And then, like, the bigger things.

[00:08:30] Like, why do people die?

[00:08:32] Like, what is this about?

[00:08:33] And where do I put my grief?

[00:08:35] What is grief?

[00:08:36] And I had gone to a few different meditation and yoga classes.

[00:08:40] And I had gone to this one that was kundalini yoga and meditation.

[00:08:45] And I had a very minimal somatic experience.

[00:08:50] And so then I told a friend about that.

[00:08:52] And she said, you need to come to this studio called Golden Bridge in Hollywood.

[00:08:58] And that was it.

[00:09:00] That was it.

[00:09:01] The class was a total vibe.

[00:09:03] I felt like I was part of something being there.

[00:09:08] It had all this energy around it.

[00:09:10] There was this lobby and cafe there.

[00:09:13] And everybody was talking afterwards.

[00:09:14] And everybody was so friendly.

[00:09:16] And it was just a very, like, high energy.

[00:09:20] Everybody seemed to feel good because they were – they had just done kundalini yoga,

[00:09:24] which does get you high, which we can talk about.

[00:09:28] And so it was just a bunch of people, like, basically at a party at 1030 in the morning

[00:09:34] on a Thursday.

[00:09:36] And I said, I want more of this.

[00:09:38] And that was that.

[00:09:39] Okay.

[00:09:39] So here's my question after that.

[00:09:41] I'm somewhat objective to yoga.

[00:09:43] I'm less.

[00:09:45] Sarah's in it.

[00:09:46] And I've done, you know, multiple yoga classes.

[00:09:48] But I've never really known the style that I've done.

[00:09:51] I've just gone in and kind of enjoyed it and stretched.

[00:09:53] That's really kind of how I looked at it.

[00:09:54] Like, I've done yin.

[00:09:55] I've done other types.

[00:09:58] Why kundalini?

[00:09:59] And, like, what is it – first of all, what is it, like, for the layman?

[00:10:02] And then why that – if you had done maybe other versions of yoga?

[00:10:07] Like, why did that one emerge?

[00:10:08] If that question made any sense to you at all.

[00:10:11] Yeah, yeah, it did, actually.

[00:10:13] And I – so to clarify, I had started going to Hatha Yoga when I was 15 years old.

[00:10:17] It was at the health club that my parents belonged to.

[00:10:21] And yoga was in all of the magazines, tabloids, in the 90s because people were doing it in LA.

[00:10:27] Celebrities.

[00:10:28] Okay.

[00:10:28] So I was like, I want to go to yoga.

[00:10:30] And I remember being there and just being like, wow, everybody's got, like, bare feet.

[00:10:34] Like, just, like, looking at everyone's feet.

[00:10:36] Because you don't see feet all the time, right?

[00:10:38] And, you know, the sticky mat and the whole thing, you know.

[00:10:41] But then when I was 18, I had moved to New York City and I had done a performance art workshop where we were doing some meditation because one of the guys who was teaching it had spent a lot of time in India.

[00:10:53] So then I was introduced to meditation at age 18.

[00:10:55] At age 19, I started going to hot yoga in the style of Bikram because there was a Bikram studio in the town that I was in.

[00:11:04] And it was great.

[00:11:07] The sweating thing, the whole discipline of it, the fact that, like, it's the same sequence every time so you can kind of see where your body's at.

[00:11:15] You can gauge.

[00:11:15] The whole thing.

[00:11:16] I loved it.

[00:11:17] But then I sort of just started doing more of vinyasa, like, at the gym, the vinyasa classes, the hatha classes.

[00:11:26] And I had a fairly robust practice with that, with vinyasa, for all through my early, mid-20s.

[00:11:33] But at that point, like I said, I had for a while been trying to find a meditation style or – okay.

[00:11:41] At one point, like, my neighbor came over.

[00:11:43] I invited her over for dinner.

[00:11:45] And she's like, Jules, what is that?

[00:11:47] And she's pointing to the corner of my little, like, dining nook in my Hollywood, like, ultra studio apartment.

[00:11:54] And it was a pile of pillows, like, couch pillows, like throw pillows.

[00:11:59] She's like, why do you have a pile of pillows in your corner?

[00:12:02] I said, well, I'm trying to learn how to meditate.

[00:12:05] Meditate.

[00:12:07] So I've, like, put the pillows there.

[00:12:09] So I'm like, maybe I'll, like, sit and meditate.

[00:12:12] And this is before I discovered.

[00:12:14] So I had been trying to find a meditation group or style or something.

[00:12:19] I really wanted to learn how to meditate.

[00:12:22] And the kundalini yoga class is very meditative.

[00:12:27] So it's kriya yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan.

[00:12:31] And now this incorporates basically three aspects.

[00:12:34] You've got breath work.

[00:12:36] You've got mudra or a position of your body.

[00:12:40] And then you've got mantra.

[00:12:42] So that's going to be, you know, repeated sounds.

[00:12:46] Either you're repeating them mentally and listening to them or you're actually chanting them.

[00:12:51] So these kundalini yoga classes will have these exercises that incorporate those three things

[00:12:57] in repetitive chanting, repetitive motions, and for longer periods of time.

[00:13:04] So it ends up being this self-hypnotic, meditative kind of yoga.

[00:13:12] Is that making sense?

[00:13:14] Yeah.

[00:13:14] Yeah, it totally is.

[00:13:15] It sounds like Bikram and Hatha were your gateway drugs to kundalini.

[00:13:19] Kind of gave you a foundation.

[00:13:22] Well, and you know, it's funny because Russell Brand describes it that way in his book.

[00:13:28] When you go to the class, they're saying – no, they are.

[00:13:32] They're saying this is – okay.

[00:13:35] The teacher will give all these quotes from Yogi Bhajan because they're in the manuals and the teachers teach out of manuals because it's all this prescriptive, instructive.

[00:13:44] You know, put your thumb here and then your pinky finger over it and then with these two fingers and then make a motion in a counterclockwise.

[00:13:52] Like, it's so specific and detailed.

[00:13:54] Wow.

[00:13:55] That will activate your hypothalamus to signal to your pituitary to awaken your second chakra so that you can clear energy of past lovers.

[00:14:10] So this is something that they told you to do as a means for a specific issue you may have had?

[00:14:15] Every single exercise is a prescription for an issue that you might have.

[00:14:21] And so one of the quotes from Yogi Bhajan about kundalini yoga was – he asks the question,

[00:14:27] okay, so if you have to go from Los Angeles to New York, would you take a donkey or would you take a 737 airplane?

[00:14:37] And of course, everybody's like, well, you know, might as well take the airplane.

[00:14:40] He's like, yeah, that's kundalini yoga.

[00:14:42] I mean, I think you've painted a picture.

[00:14:44] I think the thing that's really clear as I'm listening to you speak is that there are specific exercises to do with your body, with a mantra.

[00:14:53] And I've done it.

[00:14:54] Nippy has not.

[00:14:55] Nippy, you'd fucking hate it.

[00:14:56] I know you would hate it because Nippy hates anything in yoga that's not –

[00:15:01] However, what she's describing is our rules and rituals module.

[00:15:04] Everyone's susceptible in a certain way.

[00:15:06] I'm not susceptible in the yoga practice way.

[00:15:09] Well, and it was also, you know, the teachers are marketing themselves and they're trying to get students because they're trying to get money and, you know, make money.

[00:15:17] And you make money off teacher training.

[00:15:18] So whatever is the, you know, flavor of the month, the issue of the day.

[00:15:23] Okay.

[00:15:24] So you're having existential stress over an election season?

[00:15:30] There's a career for that.

[00:15:33] Come to our class.

[00:15:34] It's a special day.

[00:15:36] Every single time.

[00:15:38] So Golden Bridge.

[00:15:39] And you found your community and it was all the things that hit all those spots that you were looking for.

[00:15:45] And if I recall, you fast-tracked pretty quickly.

[00:15:47] Like you went right to the retreat.

[00:15:48] You did all the level one, level two, all the trainings.

[00:15:51] You were just like – you were a bit of a poster child for growth, sounds like.

[00:15:55] And I – okay, so I wasn't – I did do a deep dive pretty quickly.

[00:16:00] It just – it was a – it was an easy time in my life.

[00:16:05] I had been looking to take a vacation anyway.

[00:16:07] I was already planning on taking weeks off.

[00:16:09] And this festival that they do, they do two festivals annually, summer and winter solstice,

[00:16:15] which is basically a two-week camping – I don't even know what to call it.

[00:16:22] Like everybody works while you're there.

[00:16:24] Not everybody, but most people because you get an exchange, a discount in your ticket price.

[00:16:29] And it's part of the culture of being there.

[00:16:32] So it's this essentially like labor camp for two weeks.

[00:16:36] And the centerpiece of it is three days of this meditation called white tantric yoga.

[00:16:45] And that is sort of the ultimate hood ornament of this practice.

[00:16:49] It's the most mystical, the most rule-based, the most regimented.

[00:16:56] It lasts about 12 hours each day.

[00:16:59] And it's in this – these geometric lines.

[00:17:02] I almost want to like pull up a picture.

[00:17:04] You guys like Google white tantric yoga.

[00:17:05] You'll see like all these thousands of people in these lines.

[00:17:09] They would put like tape – they would measure it out on the floor.

[00:17:13] And then you're sitting with a partner.

[00:17:15] And you're meditating usually for 31 or 62 minutes at a time.

[00:17:20] And then you take a quick break.

[00:17:21] And then you come back to it.

[00:17:22] There are monitors all around the periphery to kind of keep the whole structure.

[00:17:27] If somebody has to get up and go to the bathroom, they have to like raise their hand.

[00:17:30] And then someone comes and sits.

[00:17:31] There are these big projections of Yogi Bhajan all around.

[00:17:35] You're following these tapes that were recorded of Yogi Bhajan giving the instructions for this.

[00:17:40] It's a very large indoctrination into – it gets you very spaced out.

[00:17:46] With the same partner?

[00:17:48] Uh-huh.

[00:17:48] In 12 hours.

[00:17:49] What if you don't like them?

[00:17:50] What if they have bad breath or they're gross?

[00:17:53] Can you switch?

[00:17:54] Well, so that did happen to me a couple of times.

[00:17:56] And I did.

[00:17:57] I was just like, hey, you know, I'm not feeling so great.

[00:18:00] I got to go.

[00:18:00] And then like I would just go, you know, around to where the portaloos were.

[00:18:05] And I'd be like, yo, do you have a partner?

[00:18:06] I need a new partner.

[00:18:08] But you're doing a lot of eye gazing with your partner.

[00:18:12] So it was this big – it was kind of like prom.

[00:18:16] Yeah.

[00:18:16] Because everyone's like, oh my God, who's your tantric partner?

[00:18:18] Because if you're sitting there eye gazing with someone for hours,

[00:18:21] and if it's somebody that you're into – I mean, so many actual couples and then marriages happened

[00:18:29] with white tantric yoga.

[00:18:30] It was like the big dating event.

[00:18:35] Hey, Kalti listeners.

[00:18:36] As you probably know, Nippy and I are working on a manuscript for our first book together.

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[00:19:35] Enjoy!

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[00:21:38] with cutting-edge AI technology, unlocking your strongest creative potential.

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[00:22:39] Now let's get back to a little bit culty.

[00:22:41] Shall we?

[00:22:43] I had an experience on that second day of white tantric yoga.

[00:22:47] Perhaps this was an actual kundalini rising, a physiological...

[00:22:53] I am not exactly sure what was going on.

[00:22:56] I had been sleep deprived.

[00:22:57] We're at 9,000 feet in the mountains of New Mexico on summer solstice.

[00:23:02] The sun is really, really high.

[00:23:04] Everybody's wearing all white.

[00:23:05] So your whole visual field almost like turns blue, like you're basically blinded by all

[00:23:11] this field of white.

[00:23:12] You're chanting, you're hot, you're sweating, you're delirious.

[00:23:16] And all of a sudden I had it like felt like a kaleidoscope, you know, very psychedelic.

[00:23:21] And it rearranged something.

[00:23:23] And I went back to LA four days later and I got invited to a party up in the hills.

[00:23:29] And I was at the party and everything felt different.

[00:23:33] Colors looked different.

[00:23:35] People felt different.

[00:23:36] Something was rearranged in me.

[00:23:38] Okay.

[00:23:39] I know that sounds super woo-woo and super mystical.

[00:23:42] And maybe it actually was kind of like a nervous system.

[00:23:46] I don't know, you know, maybe like a minor, like a hormetic kind of situation, right?

[00:23:52] Where it's almost like a small injury and then I recalibrate.

[00:23:57] But either way, I felt different.

[00:23:59] And so I was a believer.

[00:24:02] Right.

[00:24:03] And that's what people said.

[00:24:04] That's common.

[00:24:06] Yeah.

[00:24:06] Just a quick thing.

[00:24:07] Do you think that there may have been a physical thing, but then also confirmation bias?

[00:24:12] Like you wanted to believe that you were having a shift and so you felt like there was – do

[00:24:17] you think there was any part of that as well?

[00:24:19] Like a psychological affirmation that you were looking for a shift?

[00:24:23] When you're with 2,200 other people that are saying this is the best thing you could possibly

[00:24:28] do to clear out all of your past subconscious traumas, like scrubbing the dirty dishes in

[00:24:37] the sink and you're getting down to the lower layers and everything's going to be sparkling

[00:24:42] clean.

[00:24:43] And this is what everybody's talking about.

[00:24:46] Yeah.

[00:24:47] I was like, yeah, get it out.

[00:24:49] Get all these crappy memories of my ex-boyfriends out.

[00:24:52] Get all the icky trauma of rejection in Hollywood out.

[00:24:56] I want it done.

[00:24:56] I want it out.

[00:24:57] Okay.

[00:24:57] So really shiny.

[00:24:59] I see the appeal.

[00:25:00] I see the draw.

[00:25:02] But what was the dark side?

[00:25:03] And when did you start to see red flags?

[00:25:05] And what were some of the things you saw?

[00:25:06] Okay.

[00:25:07] So one thing about this community of Kinalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan and the empire,

[00:25:16] right?

[00:25:16] Let's just call it the community, the global community that he created.

[00:25:19] There was always infighting.

[00:25:22] So there was always like people were always arguing over money, power, and control.

[00:25:29] I wonder why, you know, coming from top down.

[00:25:33] So Golden Bridge was started by a woman named Grimok and her husband, Guri Shabit.

[00:25:39] Let's call them Mary and Charles because that's their legal name or previous legal names.

[00:25:44] That's so much – it's so boring.

[00:25:47] Mary, Charles.

[00:25:48] And they had two teachers there named Tej and Hadi Jiwan, aka Sharon and Steve.

[00:25:55] And so they had a little infight circa early like January 2013.

[00:26:04] And Steve and Sharon decided to leave Golden Bridge.

[00:26:10] Now, Steve and Sharon were – Tej and Hadi Jiwan – were the biggest money draw.

[00:26:14] Like they were bringing in hundreds of students at events weekly.

[00:26:19] And they didn't like the fact that they were only getting paid a flat rate of $1,000 per workshop.

[00:26:25] Because ticket prices were like, let's say, $40, $50 times 300, do the math.

[00:26:30] So the money was going back to Mary and Charles.

[00:26:33] And Mary and Charles were like, you know, you guys are under contract with us.

[00:26:39] And Tej and Hadi Jiwan, Sharon and Steve, had also started their own teachers training on the west side of LA that was very hush-hush and secretive.

[00:26:47] Because they were only supposed to be doing teachers trainings at Golden Bridge.

[00:26:51] Because teachers training is the big draw.

[00:26:54] Because it's $3,500 per student.

[00:26:59] So what happened is this year, I had done teachers training with Tej and Hadi Jiwan the year before.

[00:27:05] But so now it's 2012, 2013.

[00:27:08] And the teachers training was getting like 300 people, 200, 300 people showing up at the workshops that Hadi Jiwan would put on.

[00:27:16] So this was like Friday night, Saturday night.

[00:27:18] There would be these just a la carte.

[00:27:20] You could only attend like part of the teachers training.

[00:27:22] You didn't have to go to the whole weekend.

[00:27:24] Like all day Friday, all day Saturday, all day Sunday.

[00:27:25] You could just go for like a couple of hours and do the big meditation with them.

[00:27:30] And pay cash.

[00:27:32] It was kind of a donation thing or like suggested 50 bucks, whatever.

[00:27:36] Anyway, hundreds of people.

[00:27:37] Word gets back to Golden Bridge, Mary and Charles.

[00:27:40] They're like, what's going on?

[00:27:42] You're only supposed to be doing teachers training with us.

[00:27:45] They were like, we're not under contract with you.

[00:27:47] Y'all are taking all of our money anyway.

[00:27:50] And so they split.

[00:27:50] So at that point, Tej started her own studio called Nine Treasures.

[00:27:56] And Hadi Jiwan was just teaching out of his apartment in Santa Monica, Venice.

[00:28:02] But then this girl, Kundalini Katie, a.k.a. Guru Chug It, who had been hanging around on the scene and starting to hang out more and more and more and more with Hadi Jiwan,

[00:28:14] kind of says, you know, I've been thinking about maybe starting my own studio on the west side.

[00:28:21] Dollar signs.

[00:28:22] Ding, ding, ding.

[00:28:23] Hadi Jiwan's like, okay, I'm going to bring you under my wing.

[00:28:26] We're going to start a studio.

[00:28:28] Hadi Jiwan won't take responsibility for anything.

[00:28:30] He never owns anything.

[00:28:32] Even now, the Rama Institute, which is what Katie started with Hadi Jiwan, kind of overseeing it, even though his name wasn't like on it.

[00:28:40] It was under Katie.

[00:28:41] It was Katie's investment.

[00:28:42] It was Katie's loan that she took from her mother.

[00:28:47] I'll slow the roll.

[00:28:50] We see the pattern.

[00:28:51] But can I just interrupt?

[00:28:52] Can I just interrupt for one second?

[00:28:53] Because we're assuming, and we do hope that everyone's watched the doc, but not everybody will have, especially if they don't have HBO.

[00:29:00] Can we just go back just for a second?

[00:29:02] All of these people are all teaching Kundalini, but who is Yogi Bhajan?

[00:29:06] Oh, right.

[00:29:06] Okay.

[00:29:07] So, Yogi Bhajan, he came to the United States in 1960.

[00:29:11] YB.

[00:29:12] Okay.

[00:29:13] And for clarification, his birth name was Harbajan Singh Puri.

[00:29:19] Okay.

[00:29:20] A.K.A., later in his life, Siri Singh Saab, Bai Saab, Harbajan Singh Puri Yogi G Khalsa, in some iteration of that.

[00:29:33] And that was his title.

[00:29:35] So, some people called him Siri Singh Saab.

[00:29:37] Some people called him Siri Singh Saab.

[00:29:38] Bai Saab.

[00:29:38] Some people just called him YB.

[00:29:42] Harbajan.

[00:29:43] So, he came to the United States in 1968, 1969, started teaching yoga in L.A.

[00:29:48] It caught on with the hippies like wildfire because of this sort of mystical, magical combo of get high without the drugs, Eastern exoticism, I'll be your guru.

[00:30:00] And y'all can, you know, peace, love, light, happiness.

[00:30:05] You can take over the world, take over your own mind, like to get control of your own self with this technology.

[00:30:12] The whole thing just expanded.

[00:30:14] The hippie students loved it.

[00:30:17] They fed into it.

[00:30:18] It grew.

[00:30:18] It grew.

[00:30:19] He said, let's be fruitful and multiply.

[00:30:22] Y'all get married.

[00:30:23] Y'all have children.

[00:30:24] Y'all go make ashrams all over the country, all over the world.

[00:30:28] I'm going to put you here, put you here.

[00:30:31] I'm starting this office.

[00:30:32] I'm starting this branch.

[00:30:33] This whole umbrella under Siri Singh Saheb, a.k.a.

[00:30:38] YB, religious.

[00:30:40] So, he's got his – he started Sikh Dharma of the West.

[00:30:43] So, he's saying that he founded the Sikh religion in the West, which is kind of ridiculous.

[00:30:50] You know, federal designation of religious.

[00:30:52] That is ridiculous.

[00:30:53] Yeah.

[00:30:54] And then – and the title is kind of made up too.

[00:30:57] Siri Singh Saheb is this very – it's like the highest of the highest of the highest.

[00:31:02] And that was actually very controversial because Punjabi Indians, Indians in India were like, what is this title?

[00:31:10] Who is this guy?

[00:31:11] What is this group?

[00:31:12] He's bringing hundreds of Goree white people to India.

[00:31:16] This is a cult.

[00:31:18] What's going on here?

[00:31:20] And anyway, it was very controversial and I can get into all the Indian stuff.

[00:31:24] But – and he was from what is – it was called the Punjab or Khulstan.

[00:31:30] It got split in partition.

[00:31:31] He was from the Pakistan side, was a refugee in New Delhi, and then went back up to Punjab on the India side.

[00:31:39] But it is safe to say that he's abusing his ethnicity or leveraging it to fool people, correct?

[00:31:48] Leveraging it.

[00:31:49] Yeah.

[00:31:49] Absolutely.

[00:31:50] Okay.

[00:31:51] Well, and here's the thing.

[00:31:52] So, okay, bearing in mind he had that trauma coming of age, a refugee, you know, when he's 17 years old, 13 – whatever, during his teen years.

[00:32:03] That's intense.

[00:32:04] You know, he actually met his wife at the refugee camps in Delhi.

[00:32:09] And he had grown up going to – they were either Catholic or Christian, but they were white English, like, schools.

[00:32:16] So his teachers were white women, strict white women.

[00:32:19] So he kind of had that.

[00:32:21] He comes to the U.S., he's teaching yoga, and it's all these young white girls just flocking around him, like, wooing over him.

[00:32:32] That's an interesting one.

[00:32:34] He spoke the language.

[00:32:36] Like, what's any guy – what's any guy to do?

[00:32:38] Yeah.

[00:32:39] Sounds like a lot of other yoga teachers we know that will have been disgraced in the similar ways.

[00:32:45] I mean, disgraced themselves, not been disgraced.

[00:32:48] You know what I mean.

[00:32:48] Okay.

[00:32:49] So let's go back.

[00:32:50] Thanks for just jumping back in time.

[00:32:51] So you're taking these classes.

[00:32:54] You're all in.

[00:32:55] You've had these big changes.

[00:32:55] But I have to clarify.

[00:32:56] Oh, yeah.

[00:32:58] Yogi Bhajan died in 2004.

[00:33:00] So Yogi Bhajan is no longer alive.

[00:33:02] However, Yogi Bhajan did teach Mary, Charles, Sharon, and Steve.

[00:33:07] Gurmukh, Gurishabad, Tej, and Harijivan.

[00:33:09] They all took classes with Yogi Bhajan at some point and worked for him in dharmic work positions.

[00:33:18] Dharmic meaning under his umbrella of nonprofit, for-profit, religious.

[00:33:22] Somewhere they worked in there.

[00:33:23] Okay.

[00:33:23] Okay.

[00:33:24] Go ahead.

[00:33:24] And so now you're students of them, these direct disciples of Yogi Bhajan.

[00:33:29] Yes.

[00:33:30] And if you look back, what were some of the first red flags that you may have missed, knowing what you know now?

[00:33:38] So this thing would happen where I would have like a tremor.

[00:33:45] I would shake.

[00:33:47] I know I'm not the only person who had this experience because some of my friends also related that this would happen to them.

[00:33:54] Whether it was in white tantric yoga or in the actual yoga classes, workshops.

[00:33:58] So I would shake and I would have this almost like buzzing.

[00:34:03] Like my nervous system.

[00:34:05] It felt like this.

[00:34:06] Like very – and it would be the kind of thing where I would not be able to find my car key.

[00:34:11] I wouldn't be able to find the ticket for the parking garage.

[00:34:14] I did a workshop, one of the very first workshops that I did with Tej and Hari G1 where I – it was one of their rebirthing workshops.

[00:34:24] And I was crying.

[00:34:28] You go and – so we went into it.

[00:34:30] It's a hypnosis.

[00:34:31] So we're doing that Kriya stuff, right?

[00:34:33] So you're chanting something.

[00:34:35] You're doing a repetitive motion.

[00:34:37] You've got very loud music.

[00:34:39] Maybe everybody's chanting together.

[00:34:42] Whatever it is.

[00:34:43] This is like for half an hour.

[00:34:44] So you're kind of in this like completely spaced out, hypnotized state.

[00:34:51] Hari G1 is also playing the gong which is like all this white noise.

[00:34:54] So you're just – you know, you can't concentrate on anything.

[00:34:57] You're completely out of your mind.

[00:35:00] Some people out of their bodies.

[00:35:01] Some people are crying because this rebirthing is calling up traumas.

[00:35:07] That's the whole thing.

[00:35:08] There's literally a narration that Hari G1 is reading or the teacher's reading on the stage that says, I need you to go back to this point in time in your life remembering the trauma, remembering the pain.

[00:35:19] While you're doing this exercise, while this gong is going, while this music is playing, like it's just like so much.

[00:35:27] And then the lights go down and you're supposed to like lie down, listen to the gong again, and then the lights flip on.

[00:35:34] You're supposed to sit up, sing this song called The Long Time Sunshine Song, which is all like – it's may the long time sunshine upon you.

[00:35:43] I know the song.

[00:35:44] All love surround you.

[00:35:46] You know, and it's just –

[00:35:47] Yes.

[00:35:48] It's like let's hold hands, peace, love, happiness.

[00:35:50] It's a nice song.

[00:35:51] You know, here we go.

[00:35:52] It is.

[00:35:53] It's beautiful.

[00:35:53] It is.

[00:35:54] It's kind of got like Irish roots almost, you know.

[00:35:57] It's – anyway.

[00:35:59] But – and then you're just like, now what?

[00:36:07] For more context on what brought us here, check out my memoir.

[00:36:10] It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life.

[00:36:14] I narrate the audio version and it's also available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores.

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[00:38:52] Break time's over, people.

[00:38:54] Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:38:56] It's a good one.

[00:38:59] From this first experience of a rebirthing that I had with that workshop, this was like

[00:39:03] the first time I'd done one of those.

[00:39:05] My makeup was like running down my face, my mascara, because I had been crying during the

[00:39:09] meditation.

[00:39:10] I wasn't really aware of it, but I had been.

[00:39:12] And then people were coming up to me, you know, after the whole thing is over, the lights

[00:39:15] are on, people are walking out now.

[00:39:16] And they're like, are you okay?

[00:39:18] I'm sitting on the floor, like kind of comatose.

[00:39:21] And they're like, are you all right?

[00:39:22] Like we'd see you've been crying.

[00:39:23] I was like, uh, I, uh, I mean, you just don't even know where you are, right?

[00:39:29] Like I, I just, I was so spaced out.

[00:39:33] I don't know how else to explain it.

[00:39:34] Like I just was so not even present.

[00:39:36] I kind of picked myself up.

[00:39:38] I started to like walk back to my apartment in Hollywood.

[00:39:41] And again, that like shaking feeling, but also just this like brain dead feeling.

[00:39:47] And I did remember being like, what is this?

[00:39:52] I don't know if this is good, bad.

[00:39:55] Like, I don't know.

[00:39:56] And I was unable to function for the next two days.

[00:39:59] I couldn't work.

[00:40:00] I couldn't, I just like sat there in my apartment.

[00:40:03] And so then I went to an event with the community two days later.

[00:40:07] And I asked another yoga student who I, you know, looked up to.

[00:40:10] He was a guy.

[00:40:11] He was a little bit older than me.

[00:40:12] And I said, what is this?

[00:40:13] What happened to me?

[00:40:14] And he said, well, I think you should go talk to Harijuan and Tej.

[00:40:17] Go talk to the teachers and ask them.

[00:40:19] And maybe they'll have some advice for you.

[00:40:21] So I did the next day.

[00:40:22] And they were just like, oh, just come back.

[00:40:24] Just do more yoga.

[00:40:25] That's just, you know, you're just getting used to this.

[00:40:27] Just keep coming back.

[00:40:28] It'll get better.

[00:40:30] So there was that.

[00:40:31] And then, um, in, so after this split, after Tej and Harijuan left Goldenbridge,

[00:40:39] Tej starts her own studio.

[00:40:40] I started going to those classes.

[00:40:41] I was working at Goldenbridge at the time.

[00:40:43] So I was kind of two-timing.

[00:40:45] I was like at Goldenbridge teaching, working.

[00:40:47] And then I was also going to these classes with Tej because I considered her my teacher.

[00:40:52] Anecdote, like side ellipses.

[00:40:55] I had, you know, growing up a troubled relationship with my mother.

[00:41:01] I had mother issues.

[00:41:04] Absolutely.

[00:41:05] I knew this.

[00:41:06] Years would go by where I wouldn't even talk to my mother.

[00:41:08] I would get very angry at my mother.

[00:41:10] I had a lot of anger towards my mother.

[00:41:13] And here is this woman who is giving advice and talking about love and making yourself better

[00:41:21] and also encouraging me, telling me how good I am doing as a student, as a yogi.

[00:41:27] And I developed this attachment, this conflation of how I was feeling, which was pretty high

[00:41:34] after the yoga classes, with this kind of grandma-like figure on a stage talking with

[00:41:40] all the spiritual wisdom.

[00:41:42] And I mean, it was an attachment trauma issue right there.

[00:41:46] It's very common.

[00:41:47] You probably know this now.

[00:41:48] Yeah.

[00:41:49] Like with cult figures.

[00:41:50] More so daddy issues, I think, than mommy issues.

[00:41:53] But you explained it really well.

[00:41:55] And I mean, you know, people will mention this on both sides with the Katie Griggs Guru

[00:42:01] Jugget thing as well.

[00:42:02] You know, people would come who had mom issues.

[00:42:06] But so this becomes important because Tej would yell.

[00:42:12] And so Hari Jeevan would a bit as well.

[00:42:15] But she said this was exactly how Yogi Bhajan did it.

[00:42:18] And if you listen to enough Yogi Bhajan recordings, what were you going to say?

[00:42:22] This is the Saturn teacher thing?

[00:42:23] Yes.

[00:42:23] Yes.

[00:42:24] Yes.

[00:42:25] Major red flag.

[00:42:25] But it's also just-

[00:42:26] Explain to the audience what the Saturn teacher is.

[00:42:28] Yes.

[00:42:28] Please tell us.

[00:42:29] So Yogi Bhajan said he was a Saturn teacher.

[00:42:32] So Saturn is this big, slow-moving, heavy, very dense planet, right?

[00:42:39] And those who know things about astrology will talk about Saturn return.

[00:42:45] Because Saturn makes its return in its elliptical orbit every, what, 27 to 30 years, give or take.

[00:42:51] And this is usually a hard, heavy, dense time of if you are not on, you know, your destiny path.

[00:43:00] The universe is going to kind of pick you up by the back of your neck and put you where you're supposed to go.

[00:43:04] Guide you.

[00:43:05] Okay?

[00:43:06] Saturn return.

[00:43:07] So Yogi Bhajan said he was a Saturn teacher.

[00:43:10] So he would have this very heavy, you know, dense, destiny, re-guiding kind of teaching.

[00:43:19] So if he gave you advice, if he called you out, if he yelled at you, scolded you, then that was a download from the master.

[00:43:33] The same thing with Tej.

[00:43:35] Tej was doing the exact same thing.

[00:43:38] So I don't remember the details of the three incidents.

[00:43:42] But okay, so for me, I kind of have a three strikes, you're out rule in my life in general.

[00:43:47] So if someone crosses me once, I'm like, oh, maybe I'll give them another chance.

[00:43:51] They cross me twice.

[00:43:52] I'm like, oh, God, you know, usually it's a no, no.

[00:43:56] Maybe, like, I can leave the door a little bit open.

[00:43:58] But if there's a third time, like, absolute no.

[00:44:00] Okay?

[00:44:00] Three strikes, you're out.

[00:44:02] So with Tej, I don't remember what the exact first instance was.

[00:44:07] I think it was something to do with the air conditioner in her studio because I was working for her at her studio at this point.

[00:44:13] And it was very stuffy that day.

[00:44:15] It was hot and kind of humid.

[00:44:17] And we were setting up for the class before the class.

[00:44:19] I'd gotten there early to help set up.

[00:44:21] And I had adjusted the air conditioner so it wouldn't be as stuffy.

[00:44:26] Because it was gross.

[00:44:27] It was swampy.

[00:44:30] And Tej always came in after the class time was supposed to start.

[00:44:33] So if the class started at 9, she would arrive at 9.10.

[00:44:35] You know, everybody was – all the acolytes were waiting there, you know, on the floor, on the mat, like, excitedly waiting, this buzz.

[00:44:41] You know, so that she can then parade and sit on the stage, you know.

[00:44:45] Somebody brings her her coffee drink.

[00:44:47] Somebody has her bag for her.

[00:44:49] Somebody sets up her little – you know, it's this whole parade.

[00:44:51] It's this whole entourage.

[00:44:52] So, you know, we're all waiting there.

[00:44:54] She comes in and she's like, who changed the air conditioning?

[00:45:00] You know, and then somebody was like, well, I think Jules – she's like, Jules, how could you be so stupid?

[00:45:06] You're such an idiot.

[00:45:09] Are you dumb?

[00:45:10] You're the dumbest – you know, whatever.

[00:45:12] Just – and then she would use expletive words as well.

[00:45:16] And this is in front of, what, 150 students?

[00:45:18] So, you're mortified.

[00:45:21] I'm mortified.

[00:45:22] But I also have this attachment wound trauma stuff because of my mom issues.

[00:45:28] So, now my mom is screaming at me.

[00:45:31] I'm a child, right?

[00:45:33] I'm back being a small child.

[00:45:35] And I mean the intensity of that, right?

[00:45:39] The wounded relationship there.

[00:45:42] And so, you know, maybe I start crying a little bit.

[00:45:44] But then, you know, you just get on and you just do more yoga.

[00:45:47] You just do more work.

[00:45:48] You take it.

[00:45:49] It's a download from the master.

[00:45:51] And then after the class, everybody's coming up to me being like, oh my gosh, you just got a download from your teacher.

[00:45:58] You just got this spiritual download.

[00:45:59] You're so lucky.

[00:46:01] Because there was this culture of that.

[00:46:04] Everybody, you know, like, she paid attention to you.

[00:46:07] She paid attention to you.

[00:46:08] Do you realize how amazing and special that is?

[00:46:11] And meanwhile, I'm like, I don't know.

[00:46:13] That didn't feel good.

[00:46:15] I don't know that that felt so good.

[00:46:16] You know, and that was more than in the back of my mind.

[00:46:19] But yeah.

[00:46:19] It's very familiar.

[00:46:20] That's a great example of a red flag.

[00:46:22] And I hope everyone's listening.

[00:46:24] Everyone listening who doesn't think that's a red flag, take note because that's a really good indication of abuse.

[00:46:30] But also, like, A, the abuse, but then the way that cults twist it.

[00:46:33] So what a gift that she's helping you with your, you know, whatever you do wrong.

[00:46:38] They make abuse a gift.

[00:46:40] Yeah.

[00:46:41] The Saturn teacher is a real, just a real red flag.

[00:46:44] It's a built-in blank check for anyone to do whatever they want and to treat anyone the way they want.

[00:46:49] Yeah.

[00:46:49] And it's protective.

[00:46:51] Exactly.

[00:46:51] And so, you know, furthermore, like, you don't badmouth your teacher.

[00:46:55] You can't say anything negative about your teacher.

[00:46:56] I mean, people are literally going up and kissing her feet because that's like a South Asian tradition.

[00:47:03] You bow at the feet of your guru.

[00:47:04] But, I mean, everybody is doting.

[00:47:06] There's a line after the class.

[00:47:07] Everybody wants to talk to her, like, get a piece of the guru, the master's energy.

[00:47:11] It was like this with Yogi Bhajan as well.

[00:47:13] It was like this with Katie Griggs as well.

[00:47:15] It's like this with Hari Jeevan as well because that's the culture around this.

[00:47:19] And then we were always scrambling.

[00:47:21] You know, you would be so lucky to be able to serve the master.

[00:47:25] If you get an opportunity to do free labor for the master, what a gift.

[00:47:30] That was next on my list, the red flag of Seva.

[00:47:33] Tell us about Seva.

[00:47:35] A.K.A. Slava.

[00:47:38] So Seva is willing, volunteering of your energy in a devotional manner to the cause.

[00:47:50] A.K.A. work for free for us.

[00:47:52] Yes.

[00:47:53] So there was a lot of Seva.

[00:47:54] I did a lot of Seva because I didn't have a lot of money.

[00:47:57] So if you don't have money, you do Seva so that you can participate in these things.

[00:48:02] And so there was this scrambling to try to get a better and better Seva position, whether

[00:48:09] that's for Grimukh or for Hari Jeevan.

[00:48:12] Whoever the teacher is, there's a scramble.

[00:48:14] And in that scramble, there was this culture of don't throw me under the bus.

[00:48:18] So I think the second strike I had with Tej, we would have these celebrations for the Sikh

[00:48:25] gurus.

[00:48:26] So Guru Ram Dass, the fourth Sikh guru.

[00:48:28] There was always this big hoopla and a special morning meditation or sadhana where we would

[00:48:33] chant this special mantra as Yogi Bhajan taught us to chant, all this whole thing.

[00:48:37] So we would bring a birthday cake because it was Guru Ram Dass' birthday.

[00:48:42] And the cake has to be cut with a knife.

[00:48:44] I was in charge of bringing the cake and the chai tea, basically, the Yogi tea.

[00:48:49] Um, and this was like a huge, you know, tea dispenser, like a big old sheet cake I had

[00:48:55] to, like the whole thing.

[00:48:55] It was a big operation.

[00:48:58] And I forgot a knife to cut the cake.

[00:49:02] So we had like a plastic, you know, like a butter knife, basically.

[00:49:06] Um, and I realized like just a few minutes before we're supposed to do the cake that I didn't

[00:49:10] have a knife.

[00:49:10] And I'm just like, oh my gosh, should I run home?

[00:49:12] Like what?

[00:49:13] And then, um, you know, I said to the other girls who were doing this, save with me, I was

[00:49:17] like, don't tell her that I forgot the knife.

[00:49:19] Let's just, um, you know, like don't, please don't, just don't mention my name.

[00:49:22] Like, I don't want to be called out.

[00:49:24] Of course, it's who forgot the knife?

[00:49:28] And then somebody's like, Jules.

[00:49:30] And then it's this, are you an idiot?

[00:49:33] How could you be so dumb as to not bring this on the most important day of the year?

[00:49:39] You're out of your mind.

[00:49:40] You're an egomaniac.

[00:49:42] You know, on and on.

[00:49:44] Got a download.

[00:49:44] Well, but she would do this thing where she would like point to like her 10th gate, like

[00:49:49] your crown chakra, like as if she was getting a download from the ethers, from the saints,

[00:49:55] sages, angels, Yogi Bhajan, Guru Ram Dass.

[00:49:58] They're telling me that you're an idiot.

[00:50:02] So I got thrown under the bus.

[00:50:04] That kind of felt like a red flag.

[00:50:06] Strike two.

[00:50:09] And then the third time was a woman had bought me one of those hibiscus iced teas from Starbucks

[00:50:14] and saved me a spot, saved me a yoga.

[00:50:17] It was like a full moon solar eclipse, like really packed class where like you have to

[00:50:22] like, I was running late.

[00:50:24] So like I asked my friend to save me a spot on, you know, so that I could actually join

[00:50:29] the class.

[00:50:29] And so I come in and I kind of sit down and we're sort of right near the front of the stage

[00:50:34] so Tej could see us.

[00:50:36] And I had that hibiscus drink, right?

[00:50:38] Like sitting there and I sort of moved it to the side of my mat.

[00:50:42] There was like a little corner where I could like put it.

[00:50:45] She interrupts her teaching to be like, why did you bring a red drink to this class?

[00:50:50] Are you stupid?

[00:50:52] And I'm like, I didn't get it.

[00:50:54] My friend got it for me, you know, like I didn't ask her to do this.

[00:50:57] She just did it like, cause she was trying to be nice.

[00:50:59] And I was just like, uh, so I'm trying to figure out what to do with this red drink.

[00:51:03] And so I sort of get up and I put it against the wall behind the stage.

[00:51:07] And she's like, don't put it there.

[00:51:09] That's the dumbest thing you could possibly do.

[00:51:12] And then she's like.

[00:51:12] She really didn't think you were very smart.

[00:51:15] She's just like.

[00:51:16] I don't know what it was.

[00:51:18] What is her deal?

[00:51:20] I don't know, but there were like 200 people there that day.

[00:51:23] And I just, that was it.

[00:51:25] So humiliating.

[00:51:26] It was.

[00:51:27] And, you know, and I was trying so hard to be this perfect yoga student and following the lifestyle perfectly because I thought that if I did, because the teachings tell you, if you do this, then this will happen.

[00:51:39] If you wear these clothes, then this will happen.

[00:51:42] If you do this meditation, this will happen.

[00:51:43] So I'm like, okay, I want to be rich.

[00:51:46] I want, you know, my, I want my perfect husband.

[00:51:48] I want, you know, I want to be this ultimate, like clear, like have like all these lifetimes of karma cleared.

[00:51:55] Like I was just trying to follow the teachings.

[00:51:59] And yes, I went kind of far into it.

[00:52:02] But I really, I really, I really, truly thought that if I did it, I would be, I don't know, some kind of superhuman being.

[00:52:12] If you like the show, please consider supporting us by giving us a rating, a review and subscribe on iTunes.

[00:52:17] Cults are commonplace now and we're looking at them all and every little bit helps.

[00:52:21] Hit that subscribe button so you don't miss an episode.

[00:52:28] Thanks everybody for joining us.

[00:52:29] Next week, we'll have part two with Jules Hartley.

[00:52:32] Until then, check out the documentary and let us know what you thought of the episode.

[00:52:36] Like, link, subscribe.

[00:52:37] You know what to do.

[00:52:56] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production.

[00:52:59] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with Amphibian Media.

[00:53:04] Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy.

[00:53:07] Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios.

[00:53:09] And our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder.

[00:53:12] Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.