Jules Hartley: “Breath of Fire” and the Cult of Kundalini Yoga (Part 2)

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[00:01:22] Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:41] Welcome back, everybody, to part two with Jules Hartley on the world of Kundalini.

[00:01:46] If you didn't listen to part one, put it in reverse. Make it work.

[00:02:01] Well, that in and of itself is such a huge red flag that they're promising that you can have whatever you want. And even to say, like, there's a CREA for that. Like, the next time you say, like, there's a course, there's a workshop for that.

[00:02:12] There's a thing you can do for the thing you're struggling with that was, by the way, only there. It's the only place that offers it. So that's, those are red flags too.

[00:02:21] Yeah. In this idea of do this and then, and you can only get it here. That's supremacy. It's the us versus them, but also supremacy because we are better than everyone else. And not only that, but this is appealing to white people.

[00:02:45] Yogi Bhajan taught to white people. He had us wear all white. You know, it wasn't explicitly overtly racist, but the organizations were racist. There are reports of racism. There are blogs about it. There are people who have talked about it. It was very racist. But also, it's so judgmental.

[00:03:06] You're taught to judge yourself, but you're also taught to judge everybody else. And everybody else is inferior. And so in part of unpacking and coming out of this whole system of control that I was in is having to come to terms with the fact that I was attracted to this supremacy. And not only that, but this white supremacy. That was hard. That was a hard thing to reconcile.

[00:03:32] And I think a lot of people still are not able to kind of look at that.

[00:03:36] Definitely.

[00:03:37] People from your group or people in general?

[00:03:39] Probably both, but I'm speaking specifically to the group at this juncture. People don't want to talk about it. They're like, what do you mean supremacist? I'm like, it's baked in.

[00:03:47] I think now that you say that in any cult, if there's an us versus them and this is the only path, there is a built-in supremacy. Because we are the supreme.

[00:03:57] Yeah.

[00:03:57] We have the only way. And then throw in the cultural appropriation. And I don't, I can't speak.

[00:04:05] And so it becomes the white Jesus, the white savior thing. Okay. Because then furthermore, it's a whole bunch of white people going to India on these yatras, these spiritual trips. And then there's like, for example, Gurmukh has her orphanages in India. She's saving the children. Give me money to save the children. I need to save the children. We are saving the world.

[00:04:30] By doing this yoga, we are uplifting humanity. We are going to single-handedly save the planet because we are becoming bright white lights. Moral, spiritual, physical.

[00:04:44] For anyone who's listening from Kundalini, what Kundalini is, is not a technology. It's a yoga methodology. There's no technology. I said it again twice. What do you think of that?

[00:04:54] Yeah. I mean, it's like the idea of technology would be something that is assisting us to do something, a vehicle to get us somewhere. That's where it gets tricky. That's where it gets dicey.

[00:05:10] What if it's literally just moving your body, moving your mouth, you know, moving your lungs, your diaphragm? Like, break it down. Like, that's what it is. The rest of it and all this, like, mysticism around it, that's where it becomes problematic. Yes.

[00:05:27] So this is like – and I'm saying it because Scientology and NXIVM also refer to the tech, technology. But there's no machinery and equipment. It's a use – it's loaded language. It's loaded language to make it sound something that it's not. That's a red flag for me. Also, everyone referring to their teacher, their teacher, my teacher. Like, that's the attachment problem that we talked about earlier.

[00:05:49] Well, and it's also appropriation because in the East, that's how lineages were taught. Even in Indigenous American, you know, you have an elder in an oral tradition telling stories. I think this is very human. But at the same time, it becomes dangerous when the teacher is, you know, the person that you're deferring to for everything. Like, can we not make our own decisions?

[00:06:20] And the problem with Kundalini Yoga, as taught by Yogi Bhajan, is that the decisions are all made for you. It's plug and play.

[00:06:29] So, yeah. Tell us about that red flag. I mean, I just feel like this is such a good example of hypocrisy and you having a feeling of, hmm, something's not right here and trusting that, which I think is good. So what did you see there?

[00:06:42] Yeah. So I was friends with two of Hariji Won's longtime yoga students. We'd all done, like, the teacher training.

[00:06:49] Because, you know, every year there's another level one teacher training and everybody attends it again and again and again and again. And then there's all these level two teacher trainings that you attend again and again and again. So I'm seeing these people all the time. I'm seeing them at solstice. They're my friends. They're a couple. They've been married for seven years or so.

[00:07:07] And I run into the girl and I was like, so how's it going? She's like, well, you know, I'm going to be transparent. I'm divorcing my husband.

[00:07:18] What? Like, I thought you guys were, like, solid. Backing up the train a little bit, Hariji Won married together, basically five couples that were all about my age. He said, you marry you, you marry you, you marry you, you marry you.

[00:07:32] Wow.

[00:07:33] So he now has his own little community. Yogi Bhajan did the same thing, just on a much bigger scale. Arranged marriages. Put people together. And so now you're kind of, like, stuck, right, in this social structure within the community.

[00:07:49] So this was one of those marriages from Hariji Won, this couple. And it was kind of a shock. So I was like, okay. And then the divorce is, because I was friends with them, the divorce is finalized a few months later. Okay.

[00:08:03] And then, like, a matter of weeks after that, it's announced by another one of Hariji Won's students on Instagram. Congratulations, Hariji Won and Mundave, the student of his who had just gotten divorced from the other student of his, who Hariji Won had married together.

[00:08:24] Congratulations on your marriage. Like, wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. I had to pull over the car when my friend texted me this image from Instagram. I was like, are you kidding me right now? And then all of a sudden, it was like, you know, the Polaroid is now coming into focus. And I can see, oh, because Hariji Won had been, for years, I'd been observing him kind of,

[00:08:53] you know, he would have a student of, you know, a student of, you know, a couple of months that he would be doing white tantric with, that he would be palling around with, that he would have come sit on the stage with him, that he would, you know, promote, that he would share a hotel room with on his yatra. And they were always beautiful young women.

[00:09:14] And so talking with some of them after the fact, and they were like, oh, yeah, he was always like wanting to give me a ride somewhere. He tried to kiss me. He was holding my hand. He was telling me how beautiful and great I was, you know, the whole thing.

[00:09:26] One of the people that he shared a hotel room with on the yatra and did a lot of white tantric yoga with was Amanda Chantal Bacon of Moon Juice in Venice, who was in, yeah, like kind of like partnership, allyship with Gary Jagat, Katie Griggs.

[00:09:43] So that's kind of fascinating. Sorry, Amanda Chantal Bacon. I'm calling it out.

[00:09:51] So you're back and forth between Golden Bridge, Rama, and you've seen the entire documentary, as have we, and it will be out in the world by the time this episode airs.

[00:10:01] Did they get it right in terms of highlighting, we don't have to get into all of it here, all of the abuse, all of the toxic atmosphere that she created in addition to the good stuff?

[00:10:13] Because clearly she created something wonderful that people were drawn to, but also there was a lot of toxic shit behind closed doors.

[00:10:18] Did they get it right? Did the HBO documentary catch it?

[00:10:22] Yeah, I mean, I think, so the series itself was slated for four one-hour episodes, okay?

[00:10:30] So they had a limited amount of time to tell this monster of a story.

[00:10:37] And I think in the picking and choosing and the selectivity of what they're actually going to include, a lot of the nuance was lost.

[00:10:47] So it's sort of a sketch or a skeleton.

[00:10:50] And so little details, you know, could be clarified and sharpened.

[00:10:56] I think in general, though, it's a good broad overview.

[00:11:01] Yeah.

[00:11:03] And I will say this, they had a very extensive legal counsel team.

[00:11:08] The reason this took so many years to get made was because they were fact-checking the legal process.

[00:11:17] I even wrote it down here because I spoke with one of the producers.

[00:11:21] The clearance counsel was so very thorough.

[00:11:24] They had so many people off camera that they did so many fact-checking calls with.

[00:11:29] I was one of them.

[00:11:30] I had to fact-check for a bunch of stuff.

[00:11:32] The process was so complex and so nuanced.

[00:11:37] You know, more so than any outsider could see.

[00:11:40] And HBO and Vanity Fair were not going to make something like this without extensive, extensive fact-checking.

[00:11:49] And there were a lot of things that they wanted to include, but they didn't have enough people and enough first-person, you know, telling of this is how it happened to me that they could include a lot of these details.

[00:12:03] So I will say that.

[00:12:05] There's a lot more that they just didn't even include because they didn't feel like it was watertight.

[00:12:10] That's smart on their part.

[00:12:11] And also the stuff that they did include, for me, was damaging.

[00:12:15] It was enough.

[00:12:15] It was enough.

[00:12:16] They didn't need to.

[00:12:16] They didn't need to include more.

[00:12:17] But I know for you, you're probably also thinking about the people who are still loyal and what they need to see in order to-

[00:12:23] Also, it's still going.

[00:12:24] To get out.

[00:12:24] But, okay, let's go back up for a second.

[00:12:27] Anything that they missed in terms of the Rama time?

[00:12:31] And, like, for people who haven't seen the documentary, what was Rama and what was your role in it?

[00:12:35] So Rama was this yoga studio started by Katie Griggs, who was a student of Hattie G1, who, remember, had been teaching at Golden Bridge initially.

[00:12:43] So Katie Griggs was another yoga student and another yoga teacher, just like me.

[00:12:48] And she developed this alliance with Hattie G1.

[00:12:51] I say they because he really was, like, this emeritus advisor telling her how and what to do with opening this studio.

[00:12:59] So she opens this studio in Venice, Venice Beach, California.

[00:13:05] And she got very, very excited, young, fresh, energized yoga students who were really into the yoga to work for her, to do Save It For Her, to ghostwrite for her, to help this whole publicity, you know, this hype machine that she was creating with social media.

[00:13:28] Instagram was just becoming a thing in 2013, 2012, 2013, this time.

[00:13:32] She really rode that wave, got, you know, the best marketing that she could, invested in that, got a lot of – she had a lot of articles published in Vanity Fair.

[00:13:43] And it's interesting that the documentary did not, like, actually show those.

[00:13:46] It's like, well, wait a second.

[00:13:47] You guys had all these actual positive spin pieces on Guru Jugget in 2014.

[00:13:55] Like, you failed to mention the fact that you guys were on Team Katie.

[00:14:00] Like, you were really excited about it, too.

[00:14:01] Everybody was.

[00:14:03] She had this book that she published.

[00:14:05] Well, she had a ghostwriter for it.

[00:14:07] You know, she was always doing these speaking – she just became this – I don't even know.

[00:14:11] She became, like, a spiritual guru for this millennial population.

[00:14:17] You know, it was sort of these – I want to say, you know, her ideal – you know, her target was kind of this, like, mid to late 20s, female, urban, seeking.

[00:14:31] And this was, you know, around, like, circa, yeah, 2013 to 2017.

[00:14:35] And that was her audience.

[00:14:37] And it grew.

[00:14:39] It got very big.

[00:14:39] She had an online platform.

[00:14:41] Yeah.

[00:14:41] Yeah, she was well marketed.

[00:14:42] That's what Rama was.

[00:14:43] Yeah.

[00:14:44] Very well marketed, yeah.

[00:14:45] That's what they do well.

[00:15:16] Hey, Kalti listeners.

[00:15:39] Thank you.

[00:16:35] So my relationship to it, so I did some of the teaching for their sadhana, which was the morning meditation, the one that you start at like 4 or 4.30 in the morning that goes two and a half hours.

[00:16:49] I did not want to teach there regularly because I didn't like the vibe.

[00:16:54] I didn't like the vibe.

[00:16:56] Didn't really like Katie's vibe.

[00:16:58] I tried to talk to her a couple of times and she was very dismissive of me.

[00:17:03] I don't know if she felt kind of like threatened, you know, because I was another teacher and I was teaching classes, so I kind of had my thing going.

[00:17:16] I don't know.

[00:17:17] I mean, she just didn't – she was just like, I don't want you on the team.

[00:17:20] Like that was sort of the vibe I got from her.

[00:17:22] Every time I tried to talk to her and ask her, you know, could I lead a workshop here?

[00:17:25] She was just like, yeah, we don't do that here.

[00:17:27] And then two weeks later there would be a poster announcing the topic for the workshop that was what I had proposed to her.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:34] So I did the sadhana.

[00:17:35] I led that there a few times.

[00:17:37] But I was teaching at other places.

[00:17:39] I was teaching at UCLA for the yoga and meditation studies that the Kundalini people like to cite a lot.

[00:17:48] I taught them for five and a half years.

[00:17:50] I worked on those studies.

[00:17:51] I know how they went.

[00:17:53] I know where the money came from for those studies.

[00:17:56] It was a very extremely biased experience.

[00:18:02] I know how that all went down.

[00:18:04] I know who led the studies.

[00:18:05] I know her relationship to Tej and the whole system and the teachings.

[00:18:11] So there's that.

[00:18:12] And I kept going to Rama because I was going to Hariji Wan's classes.

[00:18:17] But then as soon as Hariji Wan had announced that he was married to this student of his who was basically my age.

[00:18:22] So it's like, wait a second.

[00:18:24] This girl who had a perfectly fine husband who's also a friend of mine is now married to our teacher who's much older.

[00:18:32] Like, what?

[00:18:34] And just like trying to like – because I like tried that on for size and I was like, ugh, shuddering.

[00:18:40] Like, no, this is wrong.

[00:18:42] I see what's going on here.

[00:18:43] So I stopped.

[00:18:44] I immediately stopped going to Rama at that point.

[00:18:46] And that was sort of the beginning of the end for me coming out as well.

[00:18:49] It was like the light was coming in through the door a little bit.

[00:18:52] Was that the final straw?

[00:18:54] No.

[00:18:56] The final straw took probably about two more years after that of unraveling.

[00:19:01] I hung on.

[00:19:02] I hung on pretty well.

[00:19:04] There was a lot of sort of last looks like, let me just try to go to one more Tej class and see how this goes.

[00:19:10] Let me just try to go to one more solstice and see how this feels.

[00:19:14] Let me just keep wearing a white headband because I'm sort of afraid to just have my head be open because you wear a turban.

[00:19:22] I don't know if you guys have seen the pictures of all the turbans.

[00:19:25] But, yeah, that's yogic technology right there.

[00:19:27] Yeah, that's some serious tech.

[00:19:29] So you have had these three strikes, but you keep holding on thinking it might get better.

[00:19:36] What was the final thing that caused you to leave?

[00:19:39] So at this point, I had been doing the admin, marketing, advertising, and registration for White Tantric Yoga LA,

[00:19:49] as well as heading up the facilitator seva for White Tantric Yoga at the solstices.

[00:19:57] So that was kind of the organization set up making sure that the woman who sits on the stage and facilitates the Yogi Bhajan videotapes,

[00:20:07] who traditionally these were secretaries of Yogi Bhajans.

[00:20:11] Secretaries meaning sexcretaries, meaning he had been sleeping with them for however long.

[00:20:16] They'd been groomed.

[00:20:17] They were part of his harem.

[00:20:18] How many?

[00:20:20] Oh, I mean, Tantric facilitators, I don't know, maybe there were about 15 or so.

[00:20:29] Maybe even less than that, maybe like 12.

[00:20:31] But women that Yogi Bhajan slept with, you know, could have been in the hundreds of the community, of the actual cult.

[00:20:40] Right.

[00:20:40] Um, yeah.

[00:20:44] So it was the middle day, the second day out of three at the winter solstice where I am heading up this facilitator seva.

[00:20:53] So this is like where you're taking care of the facilitator, like making sure she's driven around back and forth to her hotel,

[00:20:59] that she like, she's comfortable in this little house that we make for her, that, you know, she's being fed all the food she wants,

[00:21:05] that everything on the stage is perfectly set up.

[00:21:07] On and on and on it goes.

[00:21:09] And so I had, I just had a straight up panic attack, like right in the middle of this.

[00:21:16] And in Kundalini yoga, emotion is commotion.

[00:21:21] Like in Yogi Bhajan's system, you do not have any kinds of emotion.

[00:21:26] Like everybody is very flat and very neutral.

[00:21:29] And you're supposed to have space before you talk because space is the grace.

[00:21:33] Yes.

[00:21:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:35] And so, you know, here I am just literally having a panic attack, like crying out of my body, like just.

[00:21:41] That's spiritual bypassing.

[00:21:42] Yeah.

[00:21:43] I got it.

[00:21:45] Yes.

[00:21:45] It took one of the gals that was doing this seva, because I'm not getting paid for this volunteer work.

[00:21:52] It took one of the gals who I was doing this seva with, like she kind of like grabbed my hands, like gave me like some, it was like a crystal mala to hold on to.

[00:22:00] Like she kind of brought me back down to earth.

[00:22:02] I realized that I had been kind of out of my mind, like out of my body, having a panic attack.

[00:22:07] I was mortified.

[00:22:09] Absolutely mortified.

[00:22:10] But also like I kind of knew like I have to do something about this because this is sort of the ultimate, like you have broken.

[00:22:20] Something snapped inside of me.

[00:22:22] And I was so broken after that experience.

[00:22:25] I wasn't even able to go see my family for the holidays.

[00:22:28] Anyways, but also there's the teaching of Yogi Bhajan that you don't, like if you go see your family, you're going to revert back to all of your previous neuroses from your childhood.

[00:22:39] So I was just like, I can't, I don't have the bandwidth for this.

[00:22:43] I'm not going to go.

[00:22:44] So I stayed in Los Angeles and I just kept saying to myself, I've got to do something.

[00:22:49] I've got to do something.

[00:22:50] I actually found the Stanford studies because I was like, how do I get rid of panic attacks, anxiety?

[00:22:55] Found the Stanford studies on LSD and psilocybin microdosing for anxiety and panic attacks and saw, you know, in this published work that, you know, panic attacks were reduced by these microdoses of mushrooms.

[00:23:11] And so I talked with a few people who I knew were into like psychedelics about this at length.

[00:23:17] I mean, we're talking hours and hours of talking to people.

[00:23:18] I did a lot of research.

[00:23:20] Anyway, I obtained some psilocybin.

[00:23:22] I had this like very, very careful protocol with it following the Stanford studies.

[00:23:28] What it did for me was it shifted my perspective just a little bit, just a micro bit.

[00:23:35] And all of a sudden I was like, am I in a cult?

[00:23:39] I think I might be in a cult.

[00:23:41] So you had the language for cult?

[00:23:43] You had a language for cult immediately?

[00:23:44] People from my past.

[00:23:52] This group running around town with a white turban on my head, you know, touting the yoga, telling everybody how great this system is, recruiting people, right?

[00:24:02] I would run into people and they would say, you're in a cult.

[00:24:06] You realize you're in a cult.

[00:24:07] And I'd be like, I'm not in a cult.

[00:24:08] I know it seems like a cult.

[00:24:10] Like what we're doing seems like a cult, but it's not.

[00:24:13] Because the teachers would tell me this is not a cult.

[00:24:15] Like, I know it seems like it, you know, with this costume and, you know, all this like, you know, mystical stuff from the East.

[00:24:23] Like, yeah, but it's not.

[00:24:25] And so I was like, yeah, no, it's not.

[00:24:26] But then I was like, huh, could it be?

[00:24:30] Could it be?

[00:24:31] And so then, this is now 2017, I start researching more podcasts, looking at, you know, books and publications and just starting to listen to people's stories.

[00:24:42] I reached out to a cult therapist.

[00:24:45] She had a group that I could join for, you know, a nominal fee.

[00:24:48] I went to the group.

[00:24:50] I was terrified.

[00:24:51] Didn't say anything, but I listened.

[00:24:53] And I just started listening to other people's stories, including yours, because I found this podcast that you had done, Sarah.

[00:25:02] And it was, it just, it all became clear.

[00:25:06] The veil was lifted.

[00:25:07] Things started to fall.

[00:25:08] You know, all the pieces started to fit together.

[00:25:10] And then the real thing that happened was I sat down with two of his former secretaries who were friends of mine who I'd met through these events, you know, that I'd been going to, organization events.

[00:25:23] I met one of them and then she introduced me to another one.

[00:25:26] And, you know, I mean, that's really cool.

[00:25:28] Like, oh my gosh, these are like, you know, Yogi Bajan's former secretaries.

[00:25:31] Like, oh, what an honor, you know.

[00:25:33] I was super excited.

[00:25:35] And one of them, she was like, hey, you know, I've been working on a book.

[00:25:39] It's an unpublished manuscript.

[00:25:40] I'd love to just get your feedback.

[00:25:42] Could you read this section for me and just tell me what you think?

[00:25:45] And she hands me her laptop.

[00:25:47] I'm like, sure, yeah.

[00:25:48] Fine, I'll read it.

[00:25:49] I'm sitting there reading it.

[00:25:51] And this was the manuscript of Pamela Dyson that she then published at the end of 2019 called White Bird and a Golden Cage.

[00:26:00] And that was, yeah, and that was sort of the catalyst for the community because this book details her sexual relationship with Yogi Bajan.

[00:26:10] In a very, like, non – I'm not a victim.

[00:26:15] Just telling you what I went through.

[00:26:17] Anyway, so I read that.

[00:26:20] And, I mean, I'm utterly shocked.

[00:26:23] And these two women, these two former secretaries, they had, like, you know, albums full of pictures of their time with Yogi Bajan and their time doing the yoga and working in the ashrams and on and on.

[00:26:34] And I'm looking at this and I'm just like, oh, my gosh.

[00:26:38] You know, this is just – and it just all came together.

[00:26:43] You know, what I'd learned from hearing other people's stories and then noticing and starting to recognize the patterns and then understanding.

[00:26:51] But it still took me a while to stop doing the yogic practices, the meditative practices, the mantras.

[00:26:58] Took me a while to stop wearing all white.

[00:27:00] Took me a while to stop wearing a headband on my head.

[00:27:02] It takes a while.

[00:27:03] No, admitting you're wrong is hard.

[00:27:05] And I still have shadows of that stuff.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:08] Yeah.

[00:27:08] That was actually something that I was quite struck by in the documentaries, the number – how a lot of the survivors talked about, even once they left, just not knowing how to live.

[00:27:17] You know, and we had our own version of that in terms of, like, what am I going to do with my time and what do I believe?

[00:27:20] But I didn't have so many of the same prescriptives about, like, you know, do you shave or not shave or are we vegetarian or not?

[00:27:28] Like, there's so many life decisions that have been made for you.

[00:27:32] And you, you know, you as somebody who are, you know, bought into it as a later adult, but, like, imagining being raised in it and how that's just next level.

[00:27:41] You know, we could probably do a whole year of episodes with ex-Kundalini members that have contacted us because there's so many people that are waking up.

[00:27:52] For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page-turning memoir.

[00:27:56] It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life.

[00:28:00] It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores.

[00:28:03] Highly recommend, of course, because she's my wife.

[00:28:06] And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culti sponsors.

[00:28:09] Remember, when you support our sponsors, you support our podcast.

[00:28:19] Break time's over, people.

[00:28:20] Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culti.

[00:28:22] It's a good one.

[00:28:24] I'm just curious, how has the response been from the community?

[00:28:29] It's still an active community.

[00:28:31] It's still going.

[00:28:31] It's still going.

[00:28:32] Have people been talking about it?

[00:28:33] Is there, like, Reddit forums about the documentary?

[00:28:36] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:37] And I mean, mind you, I'm not plugged into the ones that are sort of people who are really deep in right now.

[00:28:44] So I'm only getting kind of snippets.

[00:28:46] Like, there's a podcast that somebody sent me where they're talking about it.

[00:28:50] These are current practicers.

[00:28:52] It has been wild on my end.

[00:28:54] I had somebody email my work, somebody who I'd forgotten.

[00:29:00] Like, I was like, whoa, I forgot you even existed.

[00:29:02] A lot of people are kind of come out of the woodworks.

[00:29:05] I'm just like, whoa, who is this person?

[00:29:08] Like, I see the name and I'm like, does that even look for me?

[00:29:10] All these people have been contacting me that I just completely forgot even existed.

[00:29:15] Who are then sharing their stories of, wow, you know, now I'm realizing that, you know, this was the system of power abuse control.

[00:29:23] It's so sad.

[00:29:24] There's all this grief.

[00:29:25] What do I do?

[00:29:26] There's a bunch of that.

[00:29:27] There's, like, people reaching out from high school and earlier.

[00:29:30] There's a couple Punjabi people have reached out to me.

[00:29:34] A couple people who I thought were friends started to, like, actually just blocked me out of the blue.

[00:29:39] So I think it's triggering a lot for a lot of people who were related to the community, but then also people who've known me.

[00:29:46] I think within the community, so there's those of us who have recognized that this was a system of power abuse and control.

[00:29:54] And there's been a lot of discussion around the documentary and how tragic a lot of these things are that the documentary brings up.

[00:30:06] And so sort of unpacking, parsing apart, giving voices to second generation children, people sharing how they got involved, you know, what the red flags were for them.

[00:30:16] So there's a lot of sharing of that in forums.

[00:30:18] Then there's this group of people who are like, well, hey, I'm a yoga student.

[00:30:24] The yoga has been really powerful or good or I've liked it.

[00:30:28] What do I do now?

[00:30:30] How do I separate the teacher from the teachings?

[00:30:34] Can I separate the teacher from the teachings?

[00:30:36] There's that phrase being kicked around a lot.

[00:30:39] What do you think of that?

[00:30:40] They're inextricable.

[00:30:41] I mean, it's baked in.

[00:30:43] It's woven in.

[00:30:44] Okay.

[00:30:44] I think what people want, people want community.

[00:30:48] Okay.

[00:30:48] People want to move their bodies.

[00:30:50] It feels good.

[00:30:51] It's natural.

[00:30:51] It's like a human thing.

[00:30:52] Like we're meant to move around.

[00:30:54] People are stressed out right now for a variety of reasons and they want like an outlet, a release.

[00:30:59] And moving your body and breathing and some of these somatic exercises can be great.

[00:31:05] The problem is when, I'll repeat it, it's when it's so prescriptive.

[00:31:11] It's when it's like taught that you can only get it here.

[00:31:15] It has to be done this way and this is for this.

[00:31:19] So I'm not knocking yoga.

[00:31:21] I'm not knocking meditation.

[00:31:22] I think people want like, they want instructions for how they can meditate, for how they can move,

[00:31:29] for like they want a place they can go and do that.

[00:31:32] And I think that this, this kundalini yoga is taught by Yogi Bhajan.

[00:31:36] It was just so widely disseminated because of the ashram system, because of the way that it got developed initially, the 60s, 70s and onward,

[00:31:45] that it's sort of what's available out there right now in terms of Kriya yoga.

[00:31:52] I guess it's just, if you're going to do kundalini yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan, you need to understand that you are,

[00:31:59] you're paying a teacher who has paid a teacher trainer, who has paid KRI, the Kundalini Research Institute,

[00:32:06] who is paying whoever's above them and then the Sirius Singsab Corporation.

[00:32:10] So it's like all feeding in.

[00:32:13] If you are buying the manuals, if you are teaching it yourself, like you're feeding into the system.

[00:32:19] That's important to know.

[00:32:20] It's just rotten at the core.

[00:32:22] An enterprise.

[00:32:23] Even, even, and then the Yogi T thing.

[00:32:25] Yeah.

[00:32:26] It's an enterprise of abuse.

[00:32:27] Yogi T is still under this.

[00:32:29] Can we write to Trader Joe's and Whole Foods and whoever's selling Yogi T and let them know?

[00:32:33] Like that just seems like a first obvious step.

[00:32:36] It's got to start.

[00:32:37] I mean, ultimately, ultimately it's up to people.

[00:32:40] Whole Foods know that they're supporting a child abuser and sexual abuser.

[00:32:45] Like how?

[00:32:46] Write the letter.

[00:32:47] Is there a petition I can sign?

[00:32:49] I don't know if I have the energy to spearhead this, but I'll sign a petition.

[00:32:54] Well, or even just have, so it's now owned by East West Tea Company, but that's still under KIIT, which is still under SSC.

[00:33:01] So it's still under the same thing.

[00:33:03] So if that were to completely separate off and sort of become its own, great, fine.

[00:33:08] You know, if no, if no Dharmic people are working there anymore, if it's, if it's doing its own, but it's still under the lineage right now, you know?

[00:33:16] So it's still a portion of sales goes to the org.

[00:33:20] So I just think, you know, you can't really separate the teacher from the teachings in this particular way.

[00:33:30] If you want to do ecstatic dance, if you want to do meditation, if you want to take these exercises and kind of make it just that, exercises, and tell the people who you're teaching to just simply have an experience in their body of noticing how the exercise feels, great.

[00:33:49] But don't tell them what it's supposed to be doing for them and that they can only get it there.

[00:33:55] That's good advice.

[00:33:57] Yeah, I think there's a lot of people who, you know, maybe have opened yoga studios or they teach online.

[00:34:02] And so they think that this documentary is just trying to trash their business.

[00:34:08] I can see that point of view, you know?

[00:34:11] And so, of course, they're, they're defensive and doubling down.

[00:34:15] And it's a tough, it's an uncomfortable conversation.

[00:34:20] Normally, these things are the beginning of the end.

[00:34:22] Normally, once the doc comes out and the people blow the whistle, it's kind of the beginning of the end.

[00:34:27] Hopefully, that'll be the case.

[00:34:29] Yeah.

[00:34:29] And then the big ripple happened when Pamela Dyson's book came out in 2020.

[00:34:33] That was the big, the big ripple.

[00:34:35] But it's people, a lot of people, a lot of people left and a lot of people doubled down, if I'm accurate.

[00:34:39] That's about right, too.

[00:34:40] Yeah.

[00:34:40] Yeah.

[00:34:41] Yeah.

[00:34:41] And a lot of people left, but then they kind of sauntered on back.

[00:34:46] And then, you know, after the pandemic and things were open again, people started teaching a lot again.

[00:34:53] So there's still studios and classes everywhere.

[00:34:55] And it's just, it's really easy, the whole, the way the space is set up with the stage, with the spotlight on the teacher, with the idea of, you know, teaching this, like, secretive, mystical thing from this, like, you know, unclear, shrouded lineage.

[00:35:11] You know, it's, it's all very, I think, you know, there's, there's a draw to it.

[00:35:16] Yeah, yeah.

[00:35:16] It's an act.

[00:35:16] And then the teacher can potentially manipulate.

[00:35:19] Yeah, it is.

[00:35:20] It's vaudeville.

[00:35:21] Yeah.

[00:35:21] The whole thing is vaudeville.

[00:35:22] Yeah.

[00:35:23] Yeah.

[00:35:23] So you've gone through this experience.

[00:35:26] You've healed, you've been healing and takes time, as you mentioned, and there's lots of nuance to that.

[00:35:33] You mentioned that the documentary overall covered the basics.

[00:35:37] What do you think's missing that they felt that they couldn't, you know, back up with legal stuff?

[00:35:41] Like, what would you want people to know from hearing this addendum to the documentary?

[00:35:46] I think that they tried in the best that they could to weave together this idea of that inextricableness, right?

[00:35:55] Of the Yogi Bhajan with the, because the documentary, the why for the documentary is what happened to Katie Griggs, a.k.a. Guru Jagat.

[00:36:04] Okay, so it's a documentary about Guru Jagat, essentially, you know, first and foremost.

[00:36:09] That's their question.

[00:36:10] But then, you know, they're trying to tie it in with everything else.

[00:36:14] They did the best they could with that.

[00:36:16] Yes.

[00:36:16] I just think it's, you know, a lot of people are saying, well, how are these two, you know, how is it actually even related?

[00:36:23] Is it even related?

[00:36:24] Isn't this a different time, a different era, a different person?

[00:36:26] And like I said, I just, I think that really, you have to understand that it actually is not because it's the same, it's the same teachings.

[00:36:38] Yeah, 100%.

[00:36:39] It is.

[00:36:40] Yeah.

[00:36:40] Yeah.

[00:36:41] So that's, that's the main thing, just the reiteration of that.

[00:36:44] And then, you know, again, I've kind of already mentioned like, okay, so other teachers, teachers in South America, teachers in Europe, you know, all this sexual abuse.

[00:36:54] Sorry, SA trigger, started coming out.

[00:36:58] So women telling the stories of how their teacher, you know, groomed and then slept with them.

[00:37:04] So it's not just this little group of Yogi Bhajan.

[00:37:07] It's not just this little group of Hari Juin with his students.

[00:37:10] It's systemic.

[00:37:11] It's happening everywhere.

[00:37:12] All these spinoffs, all these yoga teachers were doing the same.

[00:37:16] So I'm not saying that there aren't yoga teachers in the lineage of Kinalini Yoga that's taught by Yogi Bhajan that aren't good people.

[00:37:22] I mean, I'd like to think of myself as a good intentioned person, you know, but I have to say what this whole experience did was take away my, it took away my innocence and altruism.

[00:37:36] It took away my trust.

[00:37:38] It took away this, you know, can I, how do I actually help others?

[00:37:43] Because that was my intention.

[00:37:44] I want to help the world.

[00:37:46] Right?

[00:37:47] Like I'm selflessly giving in this seva because I want to give back.

[00:37:52] But that got abused.

[00:37:54] That got taken away from me.

[00:37:56] And I'm not the only one.

[00:37:57] Right.

[00:37:58] Moral injury.

[00:37:59] Yeah.

[00:38:00] The leaders are probably trained to look for people like you.

[00:38:04] And, you know, you're still you.

[00:38:06] Look at you.

[00:38:06] Become a naturopathic doctor.

[00:38:08] You're still helping people.

[00:38:09] And that's indication of you and your values and what they took advantage of because that's who you are.

[00:38:16] So I'm, yeah.

[00:38:17] And why you're still speaking out.

[00:38:19] I'll say something that might be able to help, maybe not.

[00:38:22] When Sarah and I joined, I think I speak for you when I say this, joined NXIVM, we were setting out to help people.

[00:38:28] Right?

[00:38:29] And.

[00:38:29] Yeah.

[00:38:30] It turned into this.

[00:38:31] So the fact that you were setting out to help people, the fact that it didn't happen in the way that you envisioned it, it's still happening.

[00:38:38] Right?

[00:38:38] So if you set out with that intent, sometimes you're not in control of how it manifests, I guess.

[00:38:43] I do think that because you weren't, again, it's not the trauma Olympics, but because you didn't have the same level of abuse as so many of the people at the inner circle.

[00:38:54] It's still different.

[00:38:55] But you were okay enough that you can do this because I think that a lot of people who do deal with sexual abuse and physical abuse and other types of abuse are so traumatized they can't speak publicly.

[00:39:07] It was heartbreaking watching some of the recounting on the documentary.

[00:39:11] And I'm sure there's many more people who would love to do that but just can't.

[00:39:14] Right?

[00:39:15] Absolutely.

[00:39:16] And that is an important thing that did get sort of left out of the documentary was there's a lot of people who spoke off camera that just were not ready to go on camera.

[00:39:26] And there's also another docuseries produced by Rick Rubin.

[00:39:29] It's called Long Time Son.

[00:39:30] It's another four-part, four-hour.

[00:39:32] I got to see the first two hours of it at South by Southwest.

[00:39:35] It's wonderful.

[00:39:36] It's got a very different tone than the Breath of Fire series and it's got different speakers.

[00:39:42] So that will probably be released at some point soon as well.

[00:39:46] Well, they'll have their day.

[00:39:47] One of the things we say to people that are coming out is take care of yourself first.

[00:39:52] The story can come later.

[00:39:55] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:39:56] And people don't have to share their story either.

[00:40:00] They don't.

[00:40:01] It's yours.

[00:40:02] You can do with it whatever you want.

[00:40:04] Amazing.

[00:40:05] Well, thank you so much for your time.

[00:40:06] I hope that you keep us posted as things unravel and progress.

[00:40:10] If they do, I hope they do.

[00:40:11] And I appreciate you being so open with your adventures.

[00:40:16] Thank you, Jules.

[00:40:17] I learned a little bit about yoga today.

[00:40:20] Thank you for your time.

[00:40:21] Thank you, Jules.

[00:40:22] Please keep in touch.

[00:40:23] Thank you, guys.

[00:40:24] And let us know if you're ever in Atlanta.

[00:40:26] And sat nam.

[00:40:30] Do you like what you hear on A Little Bit Culty?

[00:40:32] Then please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

[00:40:38] Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it.

[00:40:42] Maybe they're in a cult.

[00:40:43] Maybe they're a little bit susceptible.

[00:40:45] Just share the love.

[00:40:47] Thanks.

[00:40:47] Thanks.

[00:40:52] So, I almost feel like we could do a limited series, like eight to ten parts about Kundalini.

[00:40:57] There's so much to cover here.

[00:40:58] It's similar to Osho.

[00:41:00] Like, the stories keep coming out.

[00:41:02] Yeah.

[00:41:02] And many, many people have reached out with their personal stories of abuse, either by YB directly,

[00:41:07] or from Katie Griggs directly, or just things that they saw in the world of Kundalini.

[00:41:14] And at the same time, we have friends who practice yoga and still swear by it.

[00:41:18] I can't hear you say that.

[00:41:19] Even last night, someone was like, I do Kundalini.

[00:41:21] Yep.

[00:41:22] So, you know, it's fraught.

[00:41:24] And we just encourage people to do your research.

[00:41:27] And, you know, for me personally, if I was using a discipline that had an abuser at the helm,

[00:41:33] it would be very hard for me to keep going.

[00:41:36] But, you know, it's a personal journey.

[00:41:38] What do you guys think?

[00:41:40] Can you separate the tools from the abuser?

[00:41:43] I don't know.

[00:41:45] The debate continues.

[00:41:46] Well, if you want to see more to help with that decision, check out Breath of Fire on HBO.

[00:41:52] And as always, keep a healthy skepticism when someone calls themselves a guru.

[00:41:57] In fact, I think that's kind of a red flag, wouldn't you say?

[00:42:01] Yeah.

[00:42:03] Especially a 30-year-old white woman.

[00:42:05] I don't know.

[00:42:05] It just really...

[00:42:06] Yeah.

[00:42:07] I mean, I think yoga...

[00:42:09] What should you call yourself, Katie?

[00:42:10] Yoga Katie?

[00:42:12] Katie?

[00:42:13] That seems more plausible than a 42-year-old middle-aged...

[00:42:17] Troll that we followed.

[00:42:18] Yeah, that's true.

[00:42:19] Do you know what I mean?

[00:42:19] So people look at Keith...

[00:42:21] Yeah, people look at Keith and go, he's no guru.

[00:42:22] I mean...

[00:42:22] Most people follow Guru Jagat over Keith based on appearances.

[00:42:25] So I don't...

[00:42:26] I get it.

[00:42:26] And hey, no judgment.

[00:42:28] If I hadn't been in NXIVM, I would have been all up in that.

[00:42:30] Except I think everyone's got their own personal thing.

[00:42:33] Like a lot of people look at us and go, I would have been turned off by the sashes.

[00:42:36] I was very turned off by the turban.

[00:42:38] That was a no-go for me.

[00:42:41] Because I've been peripheral to Kundalini for many years now.

[00:42:45] Yeah, that atmosphere would...

[00:42:46] That's not where I'm susceptible.

[00:42:48] Yeah.

[00:42:48] Wearing white, I could deal with.

[00:42:50] I like wearing white.

[00:42:51] But turban, no thank you.

[00:42:53] Everyone's got their personal boundaries.

[00:42:55] Thanks for listening, everyone.

[00:42:56] Till next week.

[00:42:57] See you later.

[00:43:16] A Little Bit Culti is a Trace 120 production.

[00:43:19] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames.

[00:43:22] In collaboration with Amphibian Media.

[00:43:24] Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy.

[00:43:26] Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios.

[00:43:29] And our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder.

[00:43:32] Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.

[00:43:37] We'll be right back.