Justified Resentment: When AA Goes Culty with April McLean

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[00:00:29] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames.

[00:00:57] And this is A Little Bit Culty. Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week, we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way. For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows, you could already be in a cult.

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[00:02:08] Welcome back to a little bit culty everyone. Today, we are tackling a topic that is not only controversial, but it is also highly requested. Today we are covering Alcoholics Anonymous. AA. Also Nippy's initials. And our son's. Today's guest is April McLean, a blogger and former member of Alcoholics Anonymous. She's here to tell us about her experience with the program and the emotional abuse she faced in it. AA is basically a household name. You've probably heard terms like sponsors, 12 steps, sobriety chips.

[00:02:39] Practices for their members include admitting to a powerlessness over alcohol and embracing absolute sobriety. At its core, it's an addiction recovery program that leans on spirituality and self-help to get people sober. They aren't affiliated with any specific religion, but they encourage prayer and surrendering yourself to a higher power. They suggest members will have a spiritual awakening when they complete the 12 steps. Though AA has a handbook of basic tenets, it's actually a collection of independently run groups who aren't officially connected.

[00:03:09] There's no central leadership structure and methods vary a lot from location to location. That means there's no one to go to when abuse, if it happens, happens. We want to make it clear that we're not banging on the program as a whole. If it works for you, that's awesome. And we support you. I know friends that it's worked for. We encourage anyone struggling with addiction to seek help. Absolutely. One of the reasons why we've been a little hesitant to cover this in the past is we have friends and family who swear by this, and we do not want to take away their experience by any way, shape or form.

[00:03:39] In fact, we know that it can be life-changing, life-saving in some cases. But like any group this big, there's going to be bad actors. And April's here to share her personal experience with abusive sponsors. We hope that it helps other people avoid the same thing and gives them tools and red flags to look for if they're considering joining AA or some similar group. And April does a great job of explaining how it works or doesn't work. Let's welcome April McLean to our show.

[00:04:23] April, welcome to A Little Bit Culty. Hi, thanks. I'm glad to be here. I've been listening to you guys since before I even knew I was like in a cult. I just had like an obsession. Really? With cults. But yeah, like the cognitive dissonance that I had there was so strong that I didn't even recognize like, oh, this is my experience. Wow. So you were listening just because you were into cults. Yeah. Yeah. So we were on a hike, I guess, two days ago. Yeah.

[00:04:53] And I'm sitting there talking to Sarah about cognitive dissonance. And I'm kind of, cognitive is such a powerful thing because I still, I mean, you still have it even though you know you've had a situation where you've been in it. It's not like it's like, oh. It looks like it goes away. I cured my cognitive dissonance and I'm watching myself like kind of get tossed around by these ideas and recognizing the, recognizing the behavior feels the exact same as it did when we were in the cult about certain beliefs that I have. If that makes sense. Interesting. Yeah.

[00:05:22] Do you also experience this where you're trying to register? Like, is this a place where I have cognitive dissonance? Am I not seeing something that I need to be seeing? Constantly. Like, do you have that thought process? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's something I've been experiencing too. I'm just like constantly analyzing everything. I think that's good. Yeah, for sure. Take the climate that we've been in the last five years with how information has been thrown at us. I mean, Sarah can attest, I've been all over in every single issue trying to figure out like what feels right.

[00:05:51] And then am I vested in my own perspective? And it's just, it's a difficult thing. By the way, even the word vested is a nexium word. But it's a good word. It's a good word. Vested? Yeah. You're invested in your own belief to be right. But people normally say invested, saying you are vested. You have a vested interest. That's very nexium, right? I'm okay with that. April, do you say that? Do you say you were vested? I've heard it before, but only honestly in like religious circumstances. Okay.

[00:06:20] Like, don't they say something about like the power vested in me? Right? Like at a wedding. Yeah, you're right. The power vested in me. It's like a very weird ceremonial way to use it. Maybe I should reevaluate that. There's just, there's still lots of stuff to untangle. But let's go back to the beginning. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway. What's going on with your cognitive disinance? Okay. So you were just interested in cults, but you also happened to be in one. You didn't know that. Right. Right.

[00:06:46] But before that, what was going on that you got into an alleged one? Let's leave it at that. Let's start, let's start with who was April when you were searching? Or something that is a little bit culty. It's a little bit culty. We have a podcast about that. Well, okay. Tell us a story. My experience, right? So the, the group that I joined is like a cultic group of Alcoholics Anonymous. Okay. And I think AA has like a really good reputation, but it also has kind of a weird reputation, right?

[00:07:15] People join AA because they're alcoholics, right? Like they have a problem with drinking or whatever. And so my experience was that I was 25 and living in New York in 2016. And I had been like partying really hard. And like, just so you know, like why I was partying really hard. I've now realized this is why I was doing it, but both of my parents had passed away within like a five year period, like at that point. And I was like drinking in order to like not feel anything, right? Like it was like a coping mechanism.

[00:07:46] So I was doing it just a little too much and was really depressed. And so I, I was like looking for help, I guess, and not, I guess, but I was looking for help and, um, I had a friend who told me that if I was serious about getting sober, that I, I should join this group called the Atlantic group. And so in AA, there are different home groups and, um, there are thousands of them all over the world.

[00:08:14] And the Atlantic group is this really big group in New York city that is known for being highly structured and, uh, everyone there is like really happy and like really healthy and whatever. And I didn't know any of this. I just was told if you're serious about getting sober, go to this group. And so I ended up showing up there on a Tuesday night, which is when they have their really big meeting and, um, meeting people. They were all like dressed in suits and dresses.

[00:08:44] Like, I mean, it was like a business meeting, but in a church and I met a woman who became my sponsor there. And so my story actually has like three different groups, but like three different parts, if that makes sense. Um, so I joined this group in New York called the Atlantic group, which like with the sub stack that I wrote, I've had a lot of friends from that group reach out to me about my writing and be like, thank you so much for sharing this.

[00:09:13] This was my experience in the Atlantic group. But my personal experience in AG was that it wasn't as intense as my other experiences. I didn't have a Colty sponsor in AG, but it was like looking back very much into elitism. Their belief is that they, their purpose is to go to the other groups of AA and show them how it's done. Right. Like we really, they're the, they're the best one. Right. Okay.

[00:09:40] If you could just elaborate a little bit, you, you joined for a reason. Like, can you explain what the draw was? Like, did you have any particular, like, what was the feelings? Did you feel like excited to find people? Like what, what was going on for you when you joined AG? But what was the hook? Really? And this is why I'm saying there's three parts to it. Cause when I joined AG, I really was just joining something that I thought was going to help me. I was told it would help me. And I thought it would. And there were people there who were really nice. And at the time I had like pink and purple hair.

[00:10:09] It was like short, like I cut it myself. I had a septum piercing. I was very like punk rock. I was bartender at this place called Webster hall. So. Oh, I know. You know, Webster hall. Okay. Yeah. Cool. So this is all fits. Okay. So you got the piercing, the hair, the bartending. Right. And so I was like. The beast. No, but my brother did know her from her bartending days in New York, which is funny. So yeah.

[00:10:37] So I showed up to this church with everyone who was very much not like me. And I think I like inherently am a people pleaser. Like if someone says this is how things should be, I'm like, okay, let me align myself to that, you know? Mm-hmm. And so I went to this meeting. Everyone was nice. I knew I needed help. And there was this girl, Rachel, who was willing to help me. And I just felt like, okay, I guess this is what I need to do to get better, you know?

[00:11:04] So I really only joined AG because I needed help and they offered it. And they were nice about it. Question. Just peripherally and objectively, it sounds like Atlantic Group kind of has this cool feel to it that's appealing to it. Am I making that up? Or is that kind of like, this is the place to be. This is the one to be in, like as a lure. Yeah. I'm just wondering if that played into it in the same way. Like, hey. Yeah.

[00:11:30] I mean, if you go to like a typical AA meeting in New York City, it's just a hodgepodge of people. And people go to meetings and then they go home. And you might have a friend that you'd meet there, but that's kind of it, right? In the Atlantic Group, it was very cohesive. So everybody knew everybody. Everybody had a commitment at the meeting. Commitments are really big too, where like you have a little job at the meeting. So everyone had a commitment there and everyone was kind of in the same mindset.

[00:11:59] And I don't know, everyone was also like gorgeous. Like not super problematic on the outside. Like they, they seemed like normal people. And like, it's appealing. Especially when the rest of AA there's like, you know, I mean, there's just everyone in there. You got like the old man with like two teeth. I actually had a friend here in LA who, when he joined AA, he literally just had one big tooth right here. So joined AAG was super involved right away.

[00:12:29] What was your commitment? Did you do coffee or donuts or what was, pull chairs? No, I didn't. The coffee commitment was actually like very highly regarded. So I did not have that commitment. I was a greeter. So I would greet people. They had seven meetings a week. So they had a meeting every night of the week. And so I had a commitment at all the meetings. So I was a greeter at one meeting. I, you know, set up the chairs at another meeting. I think, oh, my first commitment at the big Tuesday night meeting was sweeping up the cigarette butts on the sidewalk.

[00:12:59] Also very important. Were you at all seven meetings weekly? Yes. And I actually went, I went to more meetings than that because yeah. Wow. There were also daytime meetings around New York that I would go to that weren't Atlantic group. Free labor. Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly right. Right. And the thing about AA is they have this tradition. They have 12 traditions and 12 steps. So the traditions help keep the meeting and the groups going.

[00:13:25] And one of the traditions is we are self-supporting declining outside contributions. Right. Which is we don't take money from other people. We support ourselves. We run the meetings. We pay for the meetings like everybody. Yeah. And so commitments are part of that. You know what I just realized is that I kind of take for granted that most people know what AA is. And I think I certainly do just from having, and by the way, I will caveat this 8,000 times during this episode.

[00:13:54] I've had so many family members and friends have really good results from AA and we are by no means condemning it or shitting on it overall. We're just looking at what are the aspects that are problematic, blah, blah, blah. I'm going to beat that to death. But. Exactly. Yes. But there's certainly certain, you know, images people have of AA from movies. I was actually in a Lifetime movie about an AA called My Name is Sarah with Jennifer Beal. Uh huh. Beals. Jennifer Beals, yes.

[00:14:22] About someone who fakes going to AA. Anyway. So like people have their own internal thoughts about what AA is, which may or may not be accurate. So let's just back up even a little further and say, when people go to an AA meeting, what can they expect? What's consistent, I guess, amongst all the groups? Consistent amongst all the groups is there's a group of people. There's a format to every meeting. Um, meaning you pretty much open the meeting.

[00:14:48] Somebody either shares their story or it's just a group discussion meeting where you'd like read a passage from the big book and everybody gets to share. And the big book is AA's. I brought mine just to show you guys, but it's AA's book of the 12 steps and the story of AA and what people use to work the 12 steps out of. So you go to the meeting and then everyone shares and then you all pray the prayer, like the serenity prayer at the end of it, right?

[00:15:17] Like God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. That whole thing. And, um, and then that's it. So that's typical in every meeting. I will say though in the Atlantic group and then later the Pacific group that I joined when I moved here to LA, cause there's the LA version. Um, they end every meeting by saying the Lord's prayer, which is very different than typical meetings. Is there pressure to share? At these groups? Yes. Not in normal AA meetings and normally meetings you can voluntarily share.

[00:15:47] I'll say this. If you go to an AA meeting where it's involuntary sharing, where they call on you and they expect you to share that's a red flag because it's, it's a way of getting you to conform to the group, right? If you feel any pressure to conform to the group, that's a red flag because the way AA was created to be was a totally voluntary like structure so that people can like heal from their alcoholism.

[00:16:15] And you're supposed to get to a point where you feel autonomous. Autonomy is supposed to be a really big part of AA, but in groups like the Atlantic group, the Pacific group, and the other group that I was a part of, you don't actually have autonomy. And I just want to say like for anyone listening that if you feel pressure to conform and you're not allowed to be your authentic self, like that's a red flag and you should probably find another group to join.

[00:16:43] Also, I would imagine people's impetus to drink is started through pressure. Yeah. So going to a place to not drink and feeling pressure to share is, I don't know, re-traumatizing or just not fun. Well, also it's a crossing of a boundary. If you're feeling like, I don't want to share yet. I mean, and is that, I think I have this from the movie where people stand up and say, my name is Sarah and I'm an alcoholic. And then they say, what happened? Is that, is that stereotype accurate? Okay. So that's correct. So they, they say their name, I'm an alcoholic.

[00:17:11] And then they can sharing be, is it like a couple of sentences? Is it long or is it sort of whatever somebody needs or what does it entail? It's pretty much whatever you want to share. Sometimes meetings have topics, but it's, it's a short form of your experience in AA, or it's how you were feeling that week. And so in a typical AA meeting, there's autonomy to share whatever you want to share. But in the Atlanta group, Pacific group, and especially in this third group that I was a part of.

[00:17:39] And that third group, by the way, I want to talk about because I was a part of it for four and a half years and it was the one I was in the longest. But there's a, there's a lot of pressure from the sponsors to share specifically. So I was told you share the message, not the mess. So if I shared an AA meeting, I couldn't share like everybody else. I had to share like I was recovered. Right. And that was something that my sponsor had me say is a lot of people, when they introduce themselves, they say it in different ways, right?

[00:18:08] Like I'm April, I'm alcoholic. I'm April and I'm, you know, I'm a real alcoholic. You know, there are people who say I'm April and I'm a recovering alcoholic. But in my group, once I finished the 12 steps, I was told to say I'm April and I'm a recovered alcoholic, which is not typical. Like you, you don't hear people say that because in AA, they think you're never recovered. Well, just going to say to me that that's always seemed like a bit of a red flag. Like maybe some people, like I think different, I don't know enough about, I'm not an expert

[00:18:37] on alcoholism, but I feel like some people, it is a lifelong battle and some people maybe party too much and needed some structure to get out of it. Like, it just feels like that's a label. That's not really helpful to say I'm an alcoholic for the rest of my life. Well, it reaffirms that you are. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? So I agree with you actually, and I wouldn't have agreed with you a year ago. A year ago, I would have thought, I so believed that when you come into AA, it's not by mistake, it's God ordained, right? Like this is meant to be.

[00:19:07] And if you're an alcoholic, because it says in the book too, it says like once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. And so that's like a widely believed thing that when you're in AA, you're always an alcoholic if you identify as one. But here's the tricky thing, right? You go to meetings and in order to be a part of the group and to be accepted, you have to identify as an alcoholic. Right. And in a lot of meetings, they're closed meetings, meaning that only alcoholics can attend.

[00:19:34] So if you're a new person, you walk into a closed meeting and everyone goes around the room because this happens at a lot of those meetings, goes around the room and identifies hi, April alcoholic. You would say hi, Sarah alcoholic. And then there's like this new person and they're like, hey, I'm Joe, I'm just here. You know? And they're like, oh, you have to say you're an alcoholic in order to be at this meeting. But if you don't, we can help you find another meeting that you can go to.

[00:20:01] And so I was talking to my mental health person about this last week. And she said that there's something about proclaiming something publicly that gets people to buy in more to what it is that the people are trying to sell. So if someone's at a meeting and they say like, okay, I'm April alcoholic, but they don't really know what that means. They don't really feel that's true, but they do it just to be a part of, they're more inclined to just go along with it in the end. Right. Especially if you're a people pleaser.

[00:20:32] Yes, exactly. Yeah. That's a problem for me. Well, someone who's not going to buy in is going to go to another group. So it's kind of a screener. That's true. Yeah. It's like a test. Yeah. It's kind of like how Keith used to have people like agree to wear the sashes on day one and people who had a problem with it. It was their issue. It was their issue and they could, you know, they could be asked to leave. Okay. So I, I want to talk about that because, so when I was in the Atlantic group, I was there for almost two years before I moved to LA.

[00:21:02] I had a friend from, I made a friend with this woman who moved from LA to New York, who was a part of the Pacific group, which was the West coast version of the Atlantic group. And she was telling me all about it. And I thought it was really interesting because they seem like she made it just seem really appealing. She made it seem like it's this group of people. They're all going to seven meetings. They've got seven commitments there. You know, there's this special women's meeting that the format was really intriguing to me.

[00:21:31] They had this thing every Saturday called the yard where people would meet at the founder of the Pacific group's house in Venice and they'd play volleyball together and have lunch together every Saturday morning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They had something called mountain high every year where on mother's day weekend, they'd go up to the mountains and they'd all like have this conference, you know, like, I mean, it just seemed like a really established group of AA.

[00:21:57] And so I came out here to visit family because I'm originally from LA and my friend came at the same time. And that's when I went to the Pacific group for the first time and their big meetings on Wednesday night. And I remember I went to the Wednesday night meeting, my friend, cause I was already thinking about moving out here. My friend introduced me to this woman who she thought would be a good sponsor for me when I move out here. And she goes and she introduces me.

[00:22:25] She goes, Hey, like L this is my friend, April. She's from New York city and she's visiting and she's thinking of moving out here. And then L looks at me and she goes, hi, April. So good to meet you. So your name's April and you're from New York. And I was like, yes. And she's like, okay, great. Here's what I want you to do. Do you see that group of girls over there? And I was like, yeah. And she's like, okay, I want you to go over there and tell them that your name is April and that you're from New York. And I want you to get their numbers. Can you do that? And I was like, sure.

[00:22:55] You know, and I walk over to these girls and get their numbers and chat. And then the meeting is going to start. Sorry. My heart's like pounding as I'm sharing this. Um, the meeting's going to start. And then L walks by me and she goes, sorry, we didn't get a chance to talk. Here's my number. Call any time. And then I went and I sat down and I remember distinctively having this thought when I sat down and had a moment of quiet where I was like, why did I just do what that woman told me to do? That was so weird. Yeah.

[00:23:25] Like it was just the weirdest thing. So whatever the meeting happens. And then I ended up calling her the next day. Cause that's another thing in AA that you do. You call people when you're like having a hard day and you get to know them. And it's just like a way to have a support system. And then we talked for like a whole half an hour and it was like a really good conversation. And so anyway, this woman ended up being my sponsor when I moved out here. And so when I'm, you're talking about the sash to see if someone's going to wear the

[00:23:52] sash on the first day, this woman did a ton of willingness tests with me. And I believe that like the first one was that first meeting where she was like, can I get this girl to go and do what I'm telling her to do? And then I went back to New York and had, I was there for like another two months before I moved out here, but I was in contact with her at the time. And there was, um, a time I called her where, you know, I said like, I think I want to go drink. Like I just, I'm having a bad day, you know, whatever.

[00:24:21] And I was on the subway in New York city when I was texting her and she said, here's what I want you to do. Right. Her whole thing like is here's what I want you to do. And can you do that? Those were like phrases that she used, but she was like, get on your knees and say this prayer. God, please don't let anything get in the way of my spiritual experience. And I was like, okay, I will. When I get home, I'm on the subway. And she didn't text back. And I was like, sorry, I'm on the train right now, but I will. When I get home. And she goes, haven't you ever gotten on your knees in public for a drink?

[00:24:51] Which was like the most intense, like question, like, like kind of jarred me. But then I thought about it. I was like, like, I thought about what she said when she said, can you do that? And that the reason why that's important is because the phrasing of that is really tricky and kind of manipulative. Because can I do it? Yes. The answer to it is always yes, I can do it. And I couldn't honestly answer that and say no, because I could do it. And so I like quickly got on my knees and did it.

[00:25:21] And then I got back on my seat, like while I was on a moving subway train. And I said, I did it. And she's like, good job. Now go home and go to bed. And like that started a year and a half relationship with this woman where it was just like a lot of that. It was a lot of like, you do what I tell you to do. And the moment you like maybe deviate, there was a lot of punishment involved. This is just really, really fascinating and really, really articulate about your experience. I just realized that we didn't clarify for our listeners. What is a sponsor supposed to be?

[00:25:50] I know that you, you know, this is a good distinction. You didn't, this was not a normal AA sponsor relationship. What is a sponsor supposed to do? A sponsor is supposed to be somebody you meet with like once a week and you read the big book with them and they help you go through the 12 steps. So there's like worksheets and, you know, certain things that you do in order to go through the 12 steps. And that person being somebody who's gone through the 12 steps themselves helps guide somebody else through it.

[00:26:19] And it's just like a very simple like support person. So that's what the qualifications are is for someone to be a sponsor is they've had to have gone through it already. Yes. They can't be new to the program. Okay. Does a sponsor have a sponsor? They should. Okay. And normally I was just thinking about how it's hard for me not to compare everyone's experience to our experience, but when people came through our five day as a proctor, I'd be like, oh, you know, April's a new student. She's working through blah, blah, blah. I'm thinking of this other coach, blah, blah, blah.

[00:26:49] I'm going to pair them. They were called coaches, but really they were very similar to sponsors. It's kind of a sponsor. Yeah. And they would check in on them and go through the 12 point mission statement together. I got chills. I know. I mean, honestly, every time I hear about a new group, I'm like, I think Keith just cherry picked. Or he just knows the. He knows the formulas. 12 apostles, 12 steps, you know, blah, blah. I think that all of these people who run groups like this or who are cult leaders, you

[00:27:17] know, they all just take ideas from other people. Like, because even like anybody that I talk to who's been in a cult, there are so many similarities. It's like there's always not always, but so many of them have like a teacher that guides the student. They have in my group. It was willingness was a really big thing with willingness and honesty. So you had to be 100% rigorously honest and which is confession, right? In any other group, in any cult, it's that's a form of confession.

[00:27:46] So you would confess your resentments or sins or whatever, right? To your sponsor who would then, you know, tell you what to do. Or like the priest would tell that person, you know, like there's so many connections. I think. Are there red flags at this point for you? Do you, are you noticing them as red flags or are you just uncomfortable? I wasn't noticing the red flags because Elle's allure was when I, when I had texted her on

[00:28:14] the subway and said I wanted to drink. That's when she started establishing this like understanding in me that I was suffering from something called untreated alcoholism while sober, which is a term that her and then my other sponsor later on used. And she said that I was a stage four alcoholic and that I was going to drink and die unless I did all 12 steps exactly out of the big book, the way that she did them.

[00:28:44] And, you know, and so I had before I moved out here already been like groomed and brainwashed to believe that I absolutely needed to do the 12 steps and that there was something very wrong with me. And so when I moved out here, like that was my only focus was I need to do the 12 steps and have a spiritual awakening. That's the, by the way, that's the result of the 12 steps is having a spiritual awakening. And then, you know, everything's hunky dory.

[00:29:13] And so that was my main focus. So anything that happened as a result of like my relationship with her, I didn't see as a red flag because all I cared, all I thought was like, she's here to help me. I have to do the 12 steps. She, she has the answers and I need the answers, you know? And so I just like, I didn't think that the way she was treating me was problematic. I really thought like the issue was me. And she gave you your diagnosis too.

[00:29:42] And here's what you need to do to fix your brokenness. Exactly. I've also referred to her as being, um, kind of like a, uh, Munchausen's by proxy sponsor where oftentimes I felt like she was trying to make me sicker than I really was so that she could then come in and save me. Ugh. The overlaps between our episodes are just mind blowing right now. Did you hear our Munchausen by proxy episode? Yeah, that was so good. That was wild. I think I've listened to it twice. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.

[00:30:10] That I've had a lot of awarenesses since then about just, anyway, I'm tangenting. Let's take, stick on to your story. Yeah. Practicing with cameras. Yeah. Practicing. Okay. So, so you, so you're in this group for a year and a half, but then was it the third group that was the most culty or what? Tell us what we need to know about your journey of the three groups. Okay. So my journey of the three groups. So I was in Atlantic group in New York for a year and a half then, or for two years.

[00:30:38] Then I was in Pacific group in LA for a year and a half. And then I joined in, I guess I would say I joined it or started to join it in August of 2019. Hey, culty listeners. As you probably know, Nippy and I are working on a manuscript for our first book together. And as you probably also know, maintaining control is important to us.

[00:31:03] That's why we've decided to produce our book with the self publishing agency or TSPA. Unlike traditional publishing where you're often left waiting for months or even years to get your story out. The self publishing agency lets you take control of your timeline. You'll have complete creative freedom with insights and guidance from pros in the publishing world. So if you're like us and you have a story or a message that's burning to be told, we highly recommend TSPA as your go-to partner.

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[00:33:07] You've heard from our sponsors. Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we? Why'd you leave the middle group? So basically the issue was with Elle was that she would always threaten to fire me, which was, you know, end the relationship with the sponsor, sponsee. And it was always very dramatic. And I, by the end of that relationship, that year and a half was so like, not well, and I had only reached step 10.

[00:33:36] So that's an important thing too, is I had only reached step 10, meaning I hadn't finished all 12 steps. So the spiritual awakening wasn't mine. And we got to the point where she decided to let me go or fire me. And I didn't like try to fight it this time. And the thing about her is she's like very narcissistic. And I mean, if, oh, and I want to say this too, is if anybody wants to know more about

[00:34:01] my experience with her, I wrote about it extensively in my sub stack and it's called Recovering. And it's a multi-parted series where I describe my entire relationship with her. So if you want to know more details about that, you guys can go in there. But suffice to say, it was a very abusive, like traumatic relationship. And so she is very narcissistic, very sociopathic, probably borderline sociopathic.

[00:34:28] I only say that because she really gets a joy out of like causing people pain. She genuinely laughs about it and really enjoys it. And that for me, just from my understanding of what's like sociopaths are is they don't have any empathy. They have everything's kind of a game to them. If that makes sense. I mean, I don't know if I'm even allowed to say this, but yeah. Okay. So I, when we ended that relationship, I didn't really feel super safe in the group anymore

[00:34:56] because she may, she would ice me out and I had friends stop talking to me suddenly and it just didn't make sense. Like they wouldn't talk to me anymore. And I, I just, I still, to this day, don't have confirmation that she told them things about me, but I have a feeling that that's what happened. And so it just felt like a not so safe group to be in. So, but I was still going to the meetings.

[00:35:21] And then in August of 2019, I met this new sponsor P. And so the interesting thing about P is that P sponsored L a long, long time ago. P was the one who took L through the steps. So for me, my mindset was, I only got to step 10. I have to finish the steps or I'm going to drink and die.

[00:35:48] I have to do them this way because nobody else does the steps this way. That's what L would say all the time too. It's like, no one does the steps this way. Like we're so lucky and not everybody can do the steps this way kind of thing. So it was very, very elite, very like special. And so I decided to just go to the source and I did. And so I met P and at first she couldn't work with me. She didn't have the availability.

[00:36:16] And so she tried to get me to like do work with her sponsees, but it didn't work out. Cause I was just like, this isn't what I want. Like they weren't as dedicated as she was. And I'm kind of extremist where I'm like, if I'm going to do something, I want to do it like the best and with the best, you know? And so it was from August of 2019. Hold on a second. I just had an awareness. Cause I think we're very similar.

[00:36:44] I think that the people pleasing is a, it goes in hand in hand with that trait. Yes. Right. Let's all right. Like we, we want to please people, but we also want to like go up the straight path, finish the same thing. So I think that's the best way to do it. I think that's the best way to do it. I think that's the best way to do it. I think that's the best way to do it. I think that's the best way to do it. I think that's the best way to do it. Absolutely. Just, just pointing it out for me and you. It's such a good point. And it feels so good, you know?

[00:37:11] And I've actually, I've shared this with friends since leaving these groups. The hardest thing for me since leaving has been realizing that I don't have a way to tangibly tell that I'm doing well in life right now. Right. Cause in these groups, like, you know, you're doing well because it's set up that way. Right. You're able to know like, oh, well I just finished the 12 steps and now I'm sponsoring people. And there's so many ways to, to see that you're a good person. Right.

[00:37:40] You show up for your commitment on time. You're a good person. Right. Like all these little gold stars along the way. And I feel like since leaving, I don't have the gold stars that I can get. It's just like figuring out how to live life by myself, you know? Cause life isn't measurable in that way. Right. Like we call the straight path measuring your internal growth, which has never been done before. Right.

[00:38:05] And the straight path actually, I mean, in the 12 steps, I was just thinking about, I'm curious, what's the difference between a healthy AA group and a non-healthy AA group? How do you know you've completed a step? Like I'm looking at some of them, you know, honesty, faith, surrender, like who decides when you've completed a step that you now have faith? What's the measurable result? Well, there, well, that's interesting. Um, so I'll start by saying that. How do you know?

[00:38:32] Like by explaining how, you know, you finished a step is in the book. It just tells you very clearly if you do these things, then you move on to step two, then you move on to step three. Like there are very clear instructions. Okay. Through the book. But like surrender, like if I say, yeah, I've surrendered, I'm surrendering to a higher power. Okay. Who's going to deny that? Could the coach say, could the sponsor say, no, I don't think you have, you need to surrender more? They could, but that would be problematic. Yeah. Healthy. So that gets into what's healthy and what's not healthy.

[00:39:01] Healthy sponsorship, healthy AA will allow you to determine that for yourself. Okay, good. If you feel like you've surrendered, then you've surrendered. You can intuitively tell that. And who am I to say otherwise? But these problematic sponsors, L and P, they both actually, I was sent back to other steps if they felt like I wasn't actually on that, like doing well on that step. So, and that would be like the unhealthy version of it.

[00:39:31] Okay. So let's go back to P. So now you're in this third group. Are we naming that group or not? There's not a name for it, but I'll say that it is an invite only AA meeting that when I started going to it, they had it in person in Agora Hills, Calabasas area. And now it's on Zoom, but they still meet around the neighborhoods and go to different meetings in Malibu together and whatnot.

[00:40:01] But there's not an official name for it. What's the vibe? Paint the picture. Okay, my first experience of going to that meeting, I'll share because I feel like it really paints the vibe. So this is August of 2019. I'm driving in the mountains of Agora, you know, down Mulholland Highway. Like it's just really stunning, really beautiful. And I'll say too, when I drove there for the first time, I passed a street called April Road. And I was like, it's a sign. It's a sign. I'm meant to be here. Oh my God. Oh my God.

[00:40:30] See, we're the same person. Oh my God. Yeah. So I pull up to this church and the church belongs to a famous person. And so that was like special. You know, we got invited to this chapel and I drove up. It's a really beautiful church on a hill. And then the meeting started and we all were sitting in a circle. And P has this very, and I'll say this too, P is Southern. So she's got an accent.

[00:41:00] And sometimes when I'm like describing things she says, I'll just like jump into the accent to like, I don't know, it just happened. So, but she's like very quiet and she talks like this. And so it was like, she was very calm and she had her big book. And, you know, like that was kind of the energy that she had and the meeting started and the meeting format was very special because we just like read a part from the big book.

[00:41:25] And she explained what it meant because she always read it and always explained it. And then everybody else got to share from their recovered standpoint, what their experience was with it. And so everybody, what's different about this meeting is that typical AA meetings, you'll hear a hodgepodge of different people having different opinions. Some people don't even share on the reading, like people just share about whatever.

[00:41:49] In this group, because you're supposed to share the message and not the mess, people only shared the solution, the message. And that was so appealing to me. But I felt and I remember feeling a like red flag, something's not right here feeling. And I felt really uncomfortable and I wanted to just get out of there at the end. And I remember I hadn't said goodbye to pee or thank you for inviting me to the meeting.

[00:42:19] And I was just starting to walk away and she's like, hey, thanks for coming. Good to see you. And I was like, thanks. Yeah, great. And she's like, see you next week. And I was like, I don't know, because I just wanted to leave. Like I was just done. And she's like, are you scared? And I was like, yeah, kinda. And I like went to my car and like drove away. And that was like, afterwards I kept thinking like that felt so culty. But like, I didn't know what a cult was. It was just like, if I was in a cult, that's what it would feel like kind of vibe.

[00:42:49] But also I was taught that I can't trust my own thinking. That was a big thing that I learned with Elle was the alcoholic mind is where the disease is centered. And therefore you cannot trust your own thinking. So you need to rely on the sponsor to determine for you what is true and what's not. And so I had convinced myself after that day that I was just being dramatic and maybe it was my disease trying to keep me from being in the solution. And so I ended up going back after that.

[00:43:19] So is that consistent with all the AA? Because they preach autonomy, but then you can't trust your own thinking. Or is it just this division of it? It's hard to say. Honestly, I think in this division, when you join a cult, like what you think you're joining, and then what you actually join are two totally different things. And you're told one thing, but then another thing ends up happening. In these groups, that was very clear, right? Like you're told to do these 12 steps.

[00:43:48] You'll have a relationship with God and be able to trust your thinking. But I think in most of AA, it's not as serious. Regular AA, normal AA meetings, they don't take it as seriously, if that makes sense. It's not as intense. And like they care about each other, but not in this crazy, intense kind of way. I guess the thing that always kind of strikes me, and as I think I've just mentioned to you, we did do an episode that we didn't release. We had some technical issues.

[00:44:18] But also, I feel like we weren't really able to clearly at the time say this is what's problematic about it. But one thing that always stuck out to me as a major kind of red flag slash this, I can't wrap my head around this, is what you just said. Like the goal is to be autonomous, but at the same time, you have to surrender to God. Like I don't know how to do both when I think about that.

[00:44:43] Like if I'm surrendering to a higher power, that means I'm not responsible for my behavior. I don't get like, I don't get how to do that. That's a really good point. That's like a very good point to make because that's actually true. Like how do you do both? God, that's such a good question. I grappled with that for so long because I remember thinking like being surrendered was a really big deal. Being willing and surrendered was a really big deal for me. And I was so obsessed with it.

[00:45:12] I think I developed honestly like OCD, religious OCD, where I wanted to do everything absolutely perfectly and I had to be absolutely honest. So like I would even, anyway, I would confess things like I said I was going to go to the grocery store, but I stopped by the gas station first. So I was dishonest, you know, that kind of level of like really policing your own thoughts. Absolutely. Surrender is a really intellectual concept too. It is. Yeah.

[00:45:37] And so the thing that you would hear a lot in meetings and again, most of my AA experience is in these really intense groups. So like I've been to outside meetings, outside meetings, by the way, is like a phrase which should be a red flag, right? You cheated. There shouldn't be outside meetings because that implies that we are on the inside. But I would go to outside meetings and so surrender, like I would hear a lot of people say surrender is not an action, right?

[00:46:05] Because if you're trying to surrender, you're not actually surrendered. It's a state of being? Yeah. It's like a state of being. So it's almost as if you don't even have control over the surrender. Right. So then how could you be responsible for your choices? If I'm surrendering, then God's the alcoholic. Like I don't, you know what I mean? How do I, I think you're right. It's internal. It's a built in mind fuck. It's a built in gaslight that almost all of these groups have.

[00:46:32] Like the, the NXIVM equivalent just to draw a parallel is, you know, we're in a success program where we are there to be successful. However, when you are successful, then you're attached. You're too attached. Like there's so many like things you can't, like it just didn't make sense. Yeah. I'm with you. I get it. It sounds like once you surrender, you're really surrendering to at worst what your sponsor wants you to do. Yeah. I have a story about that actually.

[00:46:56] So my first time meeting with Elle for step work, I went over to her house and this experience was so like, it's talking about a mind fuck. So I went over to her house. We started reading in the big book and we read this part in the book that says the disease is centered in the mind. And in this session, she was like looking me right in the eyes and she goes, so the disease is centered in the mind. Where is the disease centered? And I would be like in the mind.

[00:47:25] And she just said it over and over. Right. So she was using repetition to like drill it into my mind that the disease is centered in my mind. Like, and she starts talking about, you know, the alcoholic is doomed apart from divine help. And just sharing all the things about like, if I basically, if I don't surrender, like I'm going to die. And then at the end of this session, she read from, I think it's like page 90 or page 96 of the big book. By the way, I like memorized the book. I was that intense about it.

[00:47:51] But she said there's a part in the book where it says, ask the man if he was willing to go to any lengths for victory over alcohol. And if his answer is yes, then his attention should be turned to you as a person who has recovered. So she read that and she goes, so are you willing to go to any lengths for victory over alcohol? And I said, yes. Right. Because I was. And also that was the only right answer.

[00:48:18] And she looked me dead in the eye and she goes, well, then it says here that your attention should be turned to me. And that was it. And it was like, OK, that moment, I remember leaving that session feeling dazed. I think I have a journal somewhere where I wrote about it and I was like, is this what it feels like to be healing? I didn't know what happened. But looking back, I was literally just in a brainwashing session. I was being, what is it? Undue influence.

[00:48:47] She's saying I'm the boss. Yeah, that was the, like she established like you now answer to me, basically, because you can't be trusted. So my overall impression is AA in the less intense group can have like some positive things like a gym membership. You go use the machines that you want and you leave. And if you get in the wrong group, you have a psycho trainer who's like, if you want to live and be healthy, you listen to me.

[00:49:14] And AA fails in having checks and balances throughout all their chapters or whatever you want to call them. And you're at the whim of a group that's like, hey, cool. Just come use us as you want. And this is how we interpret it. And how you doing? And you can kind of work out at your own pace. And then there's some people are just like, nope, not healed. Got to stay. And they like the power. So it's susceptible to people. A chapter can be susceptible to someone who wants to abuse power in that group. And you ran into a couple of those. Sounds like. Exactly.

[00:49:44] That's such a good way to describe it. That's my impression. Yeah. Talking about it for, and I've had some friends who've been like, yeah, it was great. And then I left and I was fine. Yeah. A lot of people have that experience when you're not in these groups and you, you are kind of indoctrinated to believe that you are now going to be dependent on this for the rest of your life. You know, if you're, if you're in a normal group, you get to decide for yourself what's good for you.

[00:50:11] And I think one thing I want to talk about too is yeah, these groups are not monitored by any sort of like directors. Yeah. Yeah. There's nobody monitoring these groups. Like I can't report L or P to any higher up who gets to decide whether they're allowed to be sponsors or not. Like that doesn't exist. Also, what do you, what are you going to report? Cause I'm sure they have a bunch of people who are obedient to them who are going to refute your story. It's kind of like the sexual abuse things.

[00:50:39] It's like, who's going to believe you if they have so many people vouching for them? It's a nebulous abuse of power, right? Exactly. Hard to put language to. And then go, no, I'm not. What would, what about when you were, did this and you were saying you're doing such great things? That's the nature of how these things work. She asked me to be her sponsor. Right. It's just like, it's tough. Yeah. That's such a good point. Yeah. So you don't, do you think that the call to an issue experience is a problem with AA itself or bad actors on a power trip within particular groups?

[00:51:08] I think the only problem with AA itself is that the groups are unregulated. Mm-hmm. I think that there needs to be some sort of regulation about these groups. If there's enough complaints made about a specific group or a specific person, like there should be allowed to be some sort of regulation there. And there's not. Right. I agree. But I do think that because in AA, the groups are autonomous, the groups are really the only

[00:51:35] autonomous thing, meaning that the groups get to decide how they want to function. So because of that, each group can be however they want. And so the Pacific group gets to run however the Pacific group wants to run. And so Pacific group was started in like 1963 by this guy Clancy Imusland and thinks Synanon, but a little happier. Okay. Because they were started around the same time.

[00:52:04] And if you've seen the Synanon documentaries, the leader of Synanon and his grouchy, mean, tough love like demeanor was exactly who Clancy was. And so a lot of people back in the day when they joined Pacific group, they liked the tough love. They thought that that was helpful. And actually a lot of the old timers, like the people who have like 40 plus years of sobriety were in Synanon. Yeah. And then moved to the Pacific group after Synanon stopped being a thing. There's a lot of overlap.

[00:52:33] There is a lot of overlap. So that just gives you an idea of the energy of the Pacific group and the intensity of it. And for those who don't know what we're talking about, watch the Synanon doc. We haven't done a Synanon specific episode, but we've talked about it a lot in relation to the, um, the spinoffs that came from it. A lot of the school programs. I say that loosely, but let me back up for a second. So when did all this emotional abuse and the manipulation from P, when did that cross the line? And how did you realize it wasn't healthy and get out? We didn't, we didn't finish your story.

[00:53:03] We just jumped to the end. Go for it. Well, I mean, I'll say because my experience with P was very different than with L. Right. So I finally was able to work with P and her condition was that I had to agree to, she made me wait a month to work with her and then said that I had to agree to one condition. And the condition was that if I had a problem with her or anybody in the group that I had to go to her about it and nobody else. And I was like, done. But like, what a way to keep me silent, you know?

[00:53:32] Like what a weird, like foreshadowing. Do you see that as a red flag? Now I do. I didn't at the time. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's a common thing amongst narcissists to make people wait. Well, both of those things, make them wait and also say, come to me. Don't go elsewhere. Right. Yeah. No, the waiting thing. I actually, I've talked to my mental health person about that and she's like, yeah, that's exactly what they do. I'm like, yeah, cool. Yeah.

[00:53:57] So basically like my relationship with her was because it was very much, what do I want to say? I want to say that in her group, there was a girl who was her like right hand when I first joined the group. And shortly after I joined that girl left and then I became like her right hand for the next four and a half years. Wow. Yeah. And, um, that basically looked like I got special privileges and I got to drive her

[00:54:26] to meetings and you know, she called me all day, every day and we text all day, every day. You know, it's like our relationship was so different than my relationship with L because L had a lot of boundaries and she just didn't want to waste her time. Like being friendly with me. Like she liked being really controlling, but with Pete, the control was so covert. She was also really good at putting down L and the Pacific group and saying how wrong

[00:54:53] it was and how wrong they are and making herself out to be the one who was right and who was safe. So when I joined this group and I started working with Pete, like I really believed that I was leaving all of that like abusive, problematic stuff behind. And so for the first year or so, everything was fine. I didn't have any like bad taste in my mouth about the way that she treated me about what we were doing in the group.

[00:55:22] I felt safe. I felt like I was doing something really important. I felt like I was finally like getting from the source, the message of the big book and I was going to be really recovered after. And then where things started to take a turn was, I guess it was February of 2022. And like before this, I was so bought in. Like I didn't question anything. I was happy. I felt like I was really having a positive experience.

[00:55:48] And then in February of 2022, my best friend ended up dying of an overdose. And I happened to be the one to like go and check on her. And that experience was a very traumatic experience. Right. And so looking back, I can see that like I had a real life traumatic experience while being

[00:56:09] in this delusional group and it caused a divide in me where I was really suffering from that experience. But I also had to stay in alignment with what P and like the group was all about. So basically, when that happened, I met with P the next day and she said, or maybe it was a couple of days later. And I was really in shock at this point.

[00:56:38] And she goes, you know, I think she was trying to be supportive. I don't think she was actually. She, I'm trying to be nice. Um, she goes, you know, I was at a funeral one time and I heard a priest say, you got two days to grieve. And then after that it's selfish. Cause they're fine. They're, you know, they're in heaven. They're fine. And I remember hearing that and thinking like, oh, okay. Like that's the message. Like I've got two days to grieve. And after that, it's selfish.

[00:57:05] And I can't be selfish because then I'm going to drink and I can't be dishonest. Cause then I'm going to, you know, it's like all these things, all these underlying messages are going on while she's saying that, you know, like the nuances. So April, it's such a great example. Cause Sarah and I have had a couple of experiences in the last two years, three years where the greatest example of what an altruistic person group is can be demonstrated when a real life

[00:57:34] event stresses their character or their persona and it reveals how they react to it. And we've had a couple of those things happen in real life to us that we've had real world events happen. And these groups that claim to be altruistic, progressive, whatever. Don't handle it well. Don't handle it in the appropriate way. They don't handle it the way their persona suggests they would. Yeah. And it reveals what they're really about and the real dynamic of it.

[00:58:04] And you just gave it a really great example of how it's happened with a person, but we had a couple of incidents where we were just, we went and questioned and the responses demonstrated they weren't really what they said they were about. Hmm. And that's just a, it's such a good, good example that illustrates. That's a good way of explaining it. Thank you for that. Well, we had to have, we had to go through that. We were shocked. Yeah. You know, it was, it was with a group that claimed to represent. We didn't have to get into it. Yeah.

[00:58:33] It's just, needless to say, we were a little bit shocked. I'm taken aback by it. Yeah. Did that moment for you, was that the first sort of schism or red flag or beginning of the crumble or? Yeah, pretty much. The first major one that I could find. For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page turning memoir. It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that bound my life. It's available on Amazon, Audible and at most bookstores.

[00:59:02] Highly recommend of course, because she's my wife. And now a brief message from our little bit culty sponsors. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you support our podcast. We're Teresa and Nemo. And that's why we switched to Shopify. We're going to have to go back to Shopify. We've been using Shopify. We've used to use updates, which have often led to the shop that didn't work. Our new board is finally making our mobile app. And the illustrations of the boards are now very clear.

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[00:59:54] One thing I'll note too, like therapy, psych meds, all of that are demonized in this group by P, by L. Of course. They're not allowed. Yeah, exactly. Now I know that. Now I know that. But then I was like, yeah, because if you have the 12 steps, you don't need therapy. You have a spiritual awakening. It says in the book, if you straighten out spiritually, then you straighten out mentally and physically. So you just have to do the 12 steps and get spiritually right.

[01:00:23] And then everything else will fall into place. That was the belief. But when this happened with my friend Taryn, I was not doing well. But I had to pretend like I was doing okay. Right. Because I was already, I think I was at like step 10 or 11. So I should be in a place where I'm like spiritually fit. And I would go to pee about what was going on.

[01:00:49] And, and she would have these like lecture sessions with me where she would say, well, did you lie when you did your step two? Because you're supposed to be able to trust that God can restore you to sanity. Like, are you lying about that? Were you lying? And I was like, no, I wasn't lying. Like I was telling the truth. I just feel unsafe right now. And I feel like God's not protecting me and I don't feel close to God. And it's interesting because it's like, now I know that those are all effects of trauma.

[01:01:15] Like when you experience a trauma, you don't feel safe because the worst possible thing happened. And then your brain is like, well, if the worst possible thing happened so unexpectedly, it could happen now and it can happen now. And it's like, it's like a, a healing that you have to do to, to heal from that. But my experience is being demonized one because she doesn't have understanding of trauma.

[01:01:39] And like two, because it went against what she was all about and what she was trying to like pedal to people. And so anyway, I finished the steps and then the relationship between her and I just got very like problematic. And there was always like, you know, certain things that she would bring up. I've heard this from a lot of other people in cults too, that like the leaders or the teachers find one thing about that person and make it their issue.

[01:02:08] So my issue was dramatic, that I was dramatic. And so she would always throw that at me like, oh, you're being dramatic. You're drama. Don't bring drama. You're being dramatic, you know? And of course I would try to be like as quiet and good as possible because I didn't want to be dramatic. But I think it was because I, I'm somebody who like, when I feel injustice, I don't know how to not talk about it. Right? Like if I see injustice happening, I don't know how to not talk about it.

[01:02:33] So with Elle, when I was working with P, I wasn't allowed to talk about what happened with Elle. I wasn't allowed to tell people how Elle was. I couldn't warn people about working with Elle because that was causing problems. But internally I was like, but this woman is so harmful and she shouldn't be sponsoring. And like, I want to help people, but I wasn't allowed to.

[01:02:57] And so I think that was her way of trying to like quiet that in me so that when eventually things went wrong with her, I wouldn't do something like this and tell people about it. Speaking of which, is there any recourse for you to be doing this? Like, is there any, like, is there any downside? Have you, you've spoken up publicly, you have a substack. Has there, has anyone come after you? Are you okay with? Nobody's come after me. I've had a couple people get mad that I've talked about the Pacific group in a negative way. I've mostly had positive responses.

[01:03:27] The only reason I'm keeping names out of it is basically because I'm like nervous that maybe they'll get really mad and try to like do something legally or whatever. I don't know that they would, but yeah, so far I haven't. Better be safe with initials. I'm sorry I jumped ahead again. Okay, so this moment happens, you start to realize you can't keep on the happy face. How do you actually leave? When does that happen? I leave in February of last year.

[01:03:56] There was a six month period before that where every month it would be like a new thing where she would bring something up that it wasn't true that I was doing in order to like make me the bad person so that I was then more indebted to her kind of vibe. More discredit to you maybe. Yeah, maybe. I think it's just she. Anyway, it was like a six month period where every month something bad like something would happen. We'd get into like this argument and I would try to be like, but that's not what's happening.

[01:04:25] And then I would get in trouble for disagreeing and not being willing and whatever. I don't know how to explain that. That's okay. Well, that sounds. Well, you weren't being obedient. The beginning of the end. I wasn't being obedient. Think for yourself. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:04:56] And I would have been on Instagram throughout the year asking random questions. But they believe that what they do is the only thing that works.

[01:05:23] And you were like that they're delusional or something like that. Here it is. June 6, 2023. Is there a name for when someone repeatedly says they believe one thing but actually don't believe it? Like for instance, when someone says I'm for whatever works. But the reality is they don't think other methods actually work. So they seem like they're totally laid back but actually believe their way is the only way. And I wrote back delusional. I mean, I wish I had known that what you were going through. I probably would have put a little more thought into this. It was so perfect though. It really was.

[01:05:53] Because at the time I was just like touching it, right? Like I was touching the ideas that I was having and testing to see does this really feel. But I would always backtrack. There were times that last year where I would unfollow everything culty. I would stop listening to a little bit culty. Because I really thought at the time I'm deluding myself. I'm just getting attached to these stories and thinking that I'm in a cult. But the truth is I'm not. You know? That's what you've been trained. Yeah, you've been trained to doubt yourself.

[01:06:23] Right. Exactly. I didn't realize when you were messaging me here that you were still in. You were just aware that the first person was a problem. You weren't aware that pee was a problem. You were still in it then. Right. I didn't know that. Could you have gone to another chapter and then been like, oh, this works. I'm fine. And not really notice that the other people were being abusive or the contrast maybe would have made you seem? I wouldn't have wanted to. Go to another chapter or recognize it. Yeah. Because she liked her chapter until she didn't. It wasn't even that.

[01:06:52] It wasn't that I liked it. It's that I fully believed that they were the only right people. You were bought into that they were the only ones that worked. Yeah. That they were the only true. And that was something that P would say too, that she did the original plan of recovery. Okay. So she's selling herself as the best of all the chapters. Not all chapters claim that they're the only way. Right. So you ran into some abusive, dare I say, narcissistic personalities. Right.

[01:07:22] Yeah. I'm just going to finish my story. And then I want to quickly talk about red flags because there are a lot of groups in AA that are culty that I've met a lot of people. But so the end of the end was in December of last year, I had reached a point where I wanted to leave and I was gearing up to leave. And I think I might've messaged you or somebody, but I went on your website and the resources page

[01:07:48] and I found a counselor that I could talk to and reached out to them in December to set up a meeting. I'm just grateful for, honestly, grateful for like what you guys have done and what you've created because it's directly helped me. And I've heard so many episodes where people have thanked you for like saving their lives and like doing the vow. And like, it really is such important, helpful work. So thank you. You're so welcome. It's relevant in more fields than we anticipated.

[01:08:18] It's amazing. You know, what started is like, oh, I don't want to do this documentary. It's going to make our personal life. And then so we were able to turn into something positive. So thanks for saying that. That's cool. So I scheduled a meeting with the counselor from the website. And then I ended up meeting with P the day before I was supposed to meet with the counselor. And during that meeting, P apologized or made amends for all the things that I felt she was doing wrong.

[01:08:47] But looking back, I realized she only did that in order to like keep me. And I thought everything was fine. I was like, wow, I get to have autonomy. Like, wow. Because at that point I had no autonomy. I had to do everything she told me to do. Like, it was just so lock and key. I had to be this perfect little narcissistic mommy and daughter relationship. Right. I had to do I was a reflection of her. Like, I had to do everything she wanted me to do. I was criticized for things I wore, whatever. Anyway, so she apologized. And then I canceled the meeting with the counselor.

[01:09:17] And then that last from the end of December until February, like 13th of 2024. It was the darkest period for me where everything was okay for a week with P. And then there was a moment where she did it again. She found a problem with me and it was just repeating again. And I realized at that point, like I had no choice. Like it was either I need to submit or I need to, I just, I didn't know what to do.

[01:09:44] And so I tried really, really hard to do everything perfectly. And I'm so glad that I did because then in February, when we had one last argument, I realized there's nothing that I'm going to be able to do that's going to be good enough. And I'm either going to die in here because I'm like not going to be okay. Like I'm not going to be mentally well enough to stay here or I need to leave. And so then I reached back out to the counselor and made a meeting and then actually met with her.

[01:10:14] I remember I emailed her and I said, I'm really scared. I'm not going to meet with you again. Like I'm scared that I'm not going to show up again. And she was like, well, you know, let's just, you know, keep in touch and whatever. And so I ended up meeting with her and the session went really well. And one thing she said during that session was, you're allowed to have your own private thoughts and feelings. Because at that point I thought I needed to tell P everything. And so I felt like I was bad and wrong and like doing something mortally evil by having

[01:10:43] this session and keeping it a secret. And when Jen said, like, you're allowed to have your own private thoughts and feelings. I was like, I am like, it gave me the permission to separate just a little bit, be able to have a little bit of autonomy. And I left within like a week of that. She kind of helped me gear up to do that. And yeah, so I left in February of last year. How'd you do it? What'd you say? I tried to do it in a really nice way. I tried to be like, P, I love you.

[01:11:12] So like sent, like called her, text her all of this. Like, oh no, what it was, was I, I tried to say I needed a break for 30 days. And then I just wanted to like, not talk for 30 days and then see how that worked. That was going to be my ploy. It was, I was, cause every time I tried to leave before she would always draw me back in. And so I tried to do the 30 day break thing and she wouldn't give me the space. She kept texting me like during that time.

[01:11:42] And then I said, I basically just said, I think I want to move on and I have the text somewhere, but it's just. Not even respecting your boundaries though. Oh no, there were no boundaries with her like ever. And one thing too, that I've noticed that narcissists and like cult leaders do is they keep contact, constant contact so that the person doesn't have time to think for themselves. You know, if that makes sense. Yep. A lot of the experts that we've spoken to have said a great way to leave is just to find an excuse to leave.

[01:12:11] Like when I left because my grandfather was sick, which he actually was, it gave me like any reason to just be away from the group for a little bit, even if it's made up. Yeah. You know, I've got to go deal with, deal with this in emergency, even just whatever it is, whatever it takes. Yeah. So I had said like, you know, we need 30 days. She goes during your quiet time, you might ask if you have any resentments or fears around John. This is just a suggestion.

[01:12:36] Now John is her sponsor, which that whole lineage is like very like, we're the best. We know the, you know, whatever. And I just said, thanks. And then this is how I ended it. I said, is there any world in which we no longer are working together as sponsor and sponsee, but we can be friends? Cause in my mind, I thought our relationship was loving and honest and a real connection. And I didn't realize that she didn't feel that way. Right.

[01:13:03] So just to be clear, she was probably using all that and created that so that you would feel dependent. And it was all sort of mushed together. The sponsee, sponsee friend, you know, yes. So what did she say? Let's blur the boundaries. Well, she ended up calling me. And, um, anyway, I said at the very end, I'm going to move on from sponsorship. I period love period you. And she goes, I was suggesting for you to move on as well.

[01:13:31] I wish you the best radio silence for days. Like, and I was trying to text her like, love you, you know, kind of thing. Nothing for days. And then I finally, cause she wasn't responding. I was like, this is so messed up. I said, this is so sad, P. You are not who you say you are. I love you enough to tell you that I see your bright light and beautiful spirit, but I also very clearly see deep unhealed hurt inside you.

[01:13:56] So much sadness and so much masked rage and you hurt other people as a result of it. Those people eventually have enough and they move on. Not because you're not good enough and not because you're not willing to do the work, but because they are no longer willing to allow you to hurt them. I said, I would suggest you taking a look at this because I'm one of quite a few who have observed this in you and who love you deeply. And I said, I wish you healing with all my heart. She goes, I wish you healing with all my heart. God bless you.

[01:14:25] And that started a couple of days of her just going back and forth and being so pissed at me and she ended up telling people that I was unhinged and off the rails. And I mean, she to this day is still telling people that like I've lost my mind. Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah. Unhinged is such a great way to deflect. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's hard. I get really caught up in talking about it. So I apologize if I've just been so... No, that's what you're here for. That's what we're on in your story.

[01:14:55] Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so important. And again, like what a great, not great, a good example of how this type of relationship can become toxic and unhealthy. Just some sort of like structural questions I want to ask before we wrap up. A, doesn't affiliate with a particular religion, but spirituality is a cornerstone. How is it for somebody who comes from a different religion? Because there is a lot of talk about like, is it not Christian? Is it Christian? Like, is it God?

[01:15:22] Like what is, what's the relationship with religion and spirituality? It has a Christian foundation, but there is, in the book, there's a lot of talk about choosing your own higher power. So it's whatever you conceptualize as being a power greater than yourself. And so in Healthy AA, truly, you don't even have to believe in God. Like there's agnostic meetings, there's atheist meetings. So anybody from any religion can come in and that works.

[01:15:51] And we've already talked about how there's no official power structure of leadership and how that opens the door for potential abuse. One thing I remember when we prepped for the original episode is that another way that's open for potential abuse, which is not really your story, but I want to just mention, is how a lot of court orders for people who have DUIs or like some even domestic violence and alcohol mixed together, they get sent to AA. And now there's these like predators in these AA groups with a lot of like younger people

[01:16:19] who are more vulnerable and maybe looking for a connection with somebody in the group. Did you experience that as well? Yes. Okay. So other than what we've already talked about, that's also something that's a problem. Maybe we'll do another episode on that, but we've heard lots of stories in that dynamic. I'm sorry, I'm like power throwing the questions. It sounds like AA just didn't account for people with bad intent and has nothing to address people who come in and have bad intent. Yeah. Yeah, they don't. Because you're not, that's the whole thing too.

[01:16:49] You have to keep your eyes on yourself. You can't take another person's inventory is like a phrase. So if you have an issue with something that somebody is doing, you have to turn it on yourself and look at how it's affecting you and why you're upset about it rather than like focusing on their problems. Which is a great little protection against somebody who's being shitty. And the enterprise of AA. Yeah. Yeah. I'm probably going to get a lot of people saying that the reason I'm doing this is because I've got a resentment.

[01:17:18] That's probably from AA going to be the response that I get. But here's my, here's your response. You do have a resentment. Yeah. I have a resentment. It's grounded in reality. Yeah. I have a resentment. And it's grounded in reality. I like that. Yeah. You saying, them saying to you that you just have a resentment is them gaslighting you. And seeking to minimize your perspective. So yes, you're right. I do have a resentment. And it is that you did X, Y, and Z thing that is bad. And you would have it too. Yeah. And I'm calling it out. It's called a resentment.

[01:17:48] Truth and facts are on my side. I think the title of this podcast has to be something about resentment. I'm just, I'm just. I have a resentment. Surrender and resentment. Resentment? No. Surrender to resentment. No. It's coming to me. It's coming to me. All right. A couple more questions. Okay. Sometimes it's just like, it's a moment of brilliance. Inspiration. Divine inspiration. We've touched on the healing. I just want to ask, like, if you think that somebody wants to join AA and they want to have a healthy relationship, what kind of red flags should they look for?

[01:18:18] Be aware of. Yeah. Is AA salvageable? I mean, ultimately. Two separate. I think two separate questions. Someone's joining AA. They want to not drink. They want to find a group. What should they look for? What's healthy? What's not healthy? Okay. Healthy is if you go into a meeting and this might not feel healthy, but it is healthy. If you go into a meeting and people just say hi to you or say welcome, and then that's it, that's actually really healthy.

[01:18:44] If you're a newcomer going into a meeting, what's unhealthy is people flocking to you, asking you for your phone number, asking you a ton of questions about yourself, trying to get to know you really well, and then telling you like what meetings that you could or should go to next. And that's a red flag because somebody who's too overly invested in you right off the bat, that to me is what I've recognized in AA is a red flag. Like a love bombing? Yeah, it's love bombing. Yeah, it really is.

[01:19:11] Especially in Pacific group, they love bomb the newcomer. And then the newcomer is like the least important person because if you go to events, old timers are served by the newcomers. It's a whole thing. Another red flag would be if the group is talking about themselves being the most important or the last house on the block and all the, you know, everyone always ends up here or just talking about themselves in like an exclusive kind of way. That's a red flag.

[01:19:40] If there's elements of tough love, like if you feel like somebody's disrespecting you, they're disrespecting you and you should go somewhere else. Like you should trust your, trust your instinct because it's real. Like the whole time there were moments where I would feel a gut feeling, sick in my stomach, gut feeling, but I ignored it because I didn't know that I could trust myself, you know? And that goes back to what I was saying earlier because that's counterintuitive saying I'm

[01:20:08] surrendering to a higher power, right? You can't trust yourself and totally surrender to a higher power. That's the contradiction that I was trying to say. Oftentimes you're surrendering to a jerk. Yeah. Well, they're saying, yeah, exactly. They're putting themselves in the shoes of the higher power. Those are really good red flags. And I think we've talked a lot about other things throughout the episode that I think people can take away. And I'm, again, I'm being a little for time because I want to make sure we get this in one episode. No, I know.

[01:20:35] But so you found this great therapist on our resource page, but did you also, what else have you been doing for recovery and how have you been healing other than writing therapy? Well, the writing actually has been really helpful, but the kind of therapy I've been doing is like IFS therapy, which is really cool because it just is, it allows for me to feel more like a whole person. Like in the group, I was only allowed to be one specific way.

[01:21:03] And if I wasn't that one specific way, then I was bad and I needed to change. And the kind of work that I've been doing has allowed me to see all the different facets of who I am and how I feel and whatever, and accept it as part of myself. So it's been really powerful to do that. I moved far away from Calabasas. I have made friends with other people who've been cults online, which has been helpful. I've just been doing a lot of yoga.

[01:21:31] I'm also obsessed with something called the bar method right now, exercise, like super into it. Oh, obsessed. I'm going to go after this. If I come out there, can we do a bar class? Yes, 100%. Amazing. There's a really good studio in Hermosa Beach. This is not a plug, but just saying. We can bring our tote bags. Yes. I love to tote it. Don't join a cult. That April sent me. That's great. I love this so much. It's my prized possession. Tell us about your blog. That started as a joke. Yeah. My blog. My blog.

[01:22:01] So I wrote my blog when I first left the group. I wasn't sleeping. So I woke up at like 3 a.m. and I would just write, write, write. And so I ended up writing like 20,000 words about my experience just as like a journal. And I decided one day I wanted to publish it. And so I ended up publishing it in parts, just sharing my experience of being mostly in the Pacific group.

[01:22:29] This is actually my first time I've shared openly about being in the group with P. So, but the blog, I think really details all of the red flags and the negative experience that I had in PG. And you might be able to, if someone reads it, be able to read it and kind of deduce for yourself your own experience, right? Like in AA, a really big thing is they say, listen to the feelings, not the details.

[01:22:57] So find where you can relate to their feelings, not so much the details. So if you like read the sub stack, like see if there's any way you can relate to the feeling of it rather than like the specific details, I guess. Okay. And any, are you doing any other alternative recovery program or do you feel that you've recovered? I feel that my experience was I was somebody who needed to be in AA to stop drinking at the time. Right.

[01:23:27] And I'm now at a place where I don't feel like I need that support anymore. I'm, I've not the same person I used to be. So I feel like, yeah, I'm good. I don't need another recovery program, but I do want to say another red flag is when AA or somebody in AA says that AA is the only option for the alcoholic. That is a red flag. That's a huge red flag. Because that's not true. Yeah. There, there are so many options if you're struggling with wanting to quit drinking.

[01:23:56] Cause that's, I mean, that's the red flag to set you up for believing that like you got to stay there forever. And that's, it's just not true. I remember thinking that when I was in NXIVM because I knew people in AA and I was like, they're not recovered. They've just replaced their dependency on, you know, alcohol or whatever with this group. Hmm. And, and of course I'm doing the exact same thing in NXIVM. But also thinking that they were using fear to keep people dependent, which was how ironically

[01:24:25] NXIVM described what a cult was. Because if you leave, you're going to die or you leave, you're going to go back to being an alcoholic. So that's using fear to keep people dependent as a nature of what a cult is. Yes. And one last thing I want to say, I feel like the reason why a lot of people don't talk about AA being problematic is because there is an element where it's true. People who like, there are some people who leave and they die. My friend died of an overdose.

[01:24:53] Like I've seen it firsthand that people can leave and they can die. So they use that truth in order to keep everybody in. Right. And it's like a superstitious, it's a superstitious thing, but the truth is there's duality there. Yeah. Right. It's not so black and white. Yeah. AA can be really helpful and it can also be really problematic. There can be both.

[01:25:19] And I think that the black and white thinking is really problematic, but the truth is that both are true. Yeah. Well put. That's a great place to end. And I so appreciate your time. I'm assuming that on your sub stack, there's resources for people struggling with addiction or other place, things that you suggest. Funny thing you say that there isn't, but I will write a post about it. Okay, good. So we'll make sure to send people over there. Can people buy the bag there? I'll link it in there. How about that?

[01:25:48] I think it's going to be a hot commodity after this episode. Don't join a cult. Yes. Good advice. Anything else that we didn't cover or things that you want people to know about you? Where to find you? I'm on Instagram at April, M-A-E-M-C. And I am really grateful to be doing this podcast. And yeah, that's all.

[01:26:12] I'm so grateful that you came on and so beautifully articulated your experience. We did great. Yeah, you did great. This was so fun. Thank you so much. I wish you all the best in all your endeavors. Do you like what you hear on A Little Bit Culti? Then please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it. Maybe they're in a cult.

[01:26:42] Maybe they're a little bit susceptible. Just share the love. Thanks. April, thank you so much for talking with us. Recovering from addiction and emotion abuse isn't easy, and neither is talking about it. And you did a masterful job of doing it. Thank you. And for any listener struggling with addiction, we encourage you to seek help. There's always going to be assholes out there everywhere in the world, even on the road to recovery, but it is a journey worth taking.

[01:27:10] And for those of you who are listening and feel the need to write us about how AA has helped you, please save yourself the time. We understand the good of AA. Today, we talked about the bad, and we hope that that's helpful for everyone in their journey to give people the lens of what to look out for as they're on it. Hopefully, articulating how these abuses work can help AA become a better program for people where this doesn't go on. So stay safe, everyone. Take care of yourself. Until next time. Bye-bye.

[01:27:57] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production, executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames, in collaboration with Amphibian Media. Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy. Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios, and our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.