Page Turner: Spencer Schneider on Writing His Way Out of ‘School’

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[00:00:36] Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors, or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:47] Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:07] And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met on love in a quote self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult called Nexium.

[00:01:16] Heard of it? We got out of there together and on our way out, we helped shut it down. Our journey as Nexium whistleblowers was captured in detail on a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:29] New York Times, babe. Right. Have you heard of it? Each week on A Little Bit Culty, we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers plus experts in things like cultic abuse and coercive control.

[00:01:40] We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians with wisdom to share on recovering from everything from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances with raging narcissists.

[00:01:49] There's always something to learn about the cultiverse. Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode. Find us on Instagram and at ALittleBitCulty.com.

[00:01:59] Welcome back everybody. Who do we got today, Sarah?

[00:02:19] We have a very exciting guest but before we get into that I have a little bit of housekeeping.

[00:02:23] Oh boy.

[00:02:24] First of all everyone thank you so much for entering our t-shirt contest. I cannot believe the demand for Vanguard Week t-shirts.

[00:02:32] I'm sad to see them go a little bit. They've been collecting dust in my closet for a while.

[00:02:35] We have about 15 of them between Nippy and I. The only problem is that mine are extra small and Nippies are extra large.

[00:02:42] So I can't guarantee for those who won t-shirts congratulations. You lucky winners.

[00:02:46] Sarah won to Salmon eBay.

[00:02:48] I would never sell them on eBay.

[00:02:49] No, we should do a contest. She's like Nippy I can get thousands for these.

[00:02:53] And I was like Sarah, it's not about money.

[00:02:55] No.

[00:02:56] Actually the opposite happened. The opposite happened but I'll let you guys be the judge of that.

[00:03:00] Speaking of judge, we had our first incident on our social media this week of having to block somebody.

[00:03:07] And I wanted to just say it here that we don't like to do that and we're totally happy to have people on our Instagram, social media, Twitter who don't agree with us,

[00:03:18] who have alternate opinions to us, who question us, totally no problem.

[00:03:22] Blocking I've always said in the past can be a little bit culty if you don't agree with somebody and you just block them.

[00:03:28] That's not cool. But we also have personal boundaries about being treated respectfully and having civil discourse on our platforms.

[00:03:36] Anything you want to say about that Nippy?

[00:03:37] I agree with you.

[00:03:39] Great. So interestingly of all the groups that we've covered, we've never been fair gamed by the Scientologists,

[00:03:47] by the Mormons, by the J-Dubs. Nobody.

[00:03:50] I mean people, you know, have been upset but no one's fair gamed us.

[00:03:53] We this week definitely noticed that the Teal Tribe is not happy with our coverage of her.

[00:03:59] And fair enough, I get it. But the vitriol and the character assassination that we've been under was quite alarming.

[00:04:05] It wasn't that alarming? It was about two or three people.

[00:04:08] Okay. Well, I was alarmed. No, I wasn't alarmed. You're right.

[00:04:11] It was more just like we're at a stage in our lives and we don't need to deal with that.

[00:04:15] It's not about blocking to cancel.

[00:04:17] It's not about blocking when people are going to insult us and attack our character.

[00:04:21] So it needed to be said.

[00:04:23] Some of the letters you got personally, I think, sounded a lot like how we used to sound.

[00:04:28] Yeah. So I get it. Like, you know, we've been there.

[00:04:30] But I think what's interesting about this particular series is that the people who follow Teal,

[00:04:35] who are loyal to Teal are telling us how everything was taken out of context

[00:04:38] and that it was all editing and that's not what the retreats are like.

[00:04:42] And they're unwilling to look at, you know, the stuff that might be bad or maybe unhealthy.

[00:04:46] Interestingly, the people that have left and journalists and people who are following Teal

[00:04:50] felt that the series was softball and they didn't even address some of the more egregious allegations against her

[00:04:57] and they wondered why. So we have both sides here.

[00:05:00] Which may have some upsides too because you just don't want to club people over the head

[00:05:04] who are getting ready to get out of a traumatic experience

[00:05:06] and hopefully planted enough seeds for people to make an informed decision.

[00:05:10] Yes, totally. And point being, I feel like we've covered her enough.

[00:05:13] We're moving on. We're moving on to other cults.

[00:05:15] See you Teal.

[00:05:16] See ya. Good luck with it all. I wish you all the best. Love and light.

[00:05:19] Namaste.

[00:05:20] So, our guest today is named Spencer Schneider

[00:05:24] and he's the author of Manhattan Cult Story,

[00:05:27] a nightmarish cautionary tale about an ultra-secret organization

[00:05:31] that has allegedly engaged in forced adoptions, arranged marriages,

[00:05:35] public humiliation, forced labor,

[00:05:37] all under an oath of total secrecy

[00:05:39] and under the control of a brilliant but demented cult leader

[00:05:43] posing as a teacher of ancient knowledge.

[00:05:45] It's a gripping, page-turning and creepy read.

[00:05:48] Spencer Schneider is not a novelist.

[00:05:50] He lived the pages of Manhattan Cult Story for nearly 23 years.

[00:05:54] After being recruited into a secret society known simply as

[00:05:58] School, led by a charismatic and some say sociopathic actress,

[00:06:02] Sharon Gans, who passed away in January of 2021.

[00:06:05] School counted some hundreds of well-educated

[00:06:08] and well-healed New Yorkers as fervent followers.

[00:06:10] He writes,

[00:06:11] We were your accountants, your money managers,

[00:06:14] lawyers, executive recruiters and doctors.

[00:06:16] We owned your child's private school

[00:06:18] and sold you your brownstone,

[00:06:19] but you'd never guess our secret lives.

[00:06:21] Now we lived in a kind of silent terror and fervor

[00:06:24] and there are hundreds of us.

[00:06:25] Spencer joins us to share more about his journey back from the brink

[00:06:28] and what he wants you to know about School now.

[00:06:31] Without further ado,

[00:06:32] Spencer Schneider, cult survivor

[00:06:34] and author of Manhattan Cult Story.

[00:06:36] Spencer Schneider.

[00:06:55] Hello.

[00:06:56] Welcome to a little bit culty. Finally.

[00:06:58] I feel like I've been living in your head for the last 48 hours.

[00:07:01] I'm thrilled to be here. Very excited to be here.

[00:07:04] I just have to tell you,

[00:07:05] normally when we prep a podcast where someone's written a book,

[00:07:08] one of us reads the book and the other person doesn't

[00:07:10] so that we can ask different questions

[00:07:12] and come at it from like knowing and not knowing.

[00:07:15] No, we both read your book.

[00:07:16] I insisted that Nipi read your book.

[00:07:17] I tore through it.

[00:07:18] Because I mean partly just because it's such a good book

[00:07:21] but also because there's so many similarities

[00:07:24] and I always find it very healing to make the correlations

[00:07:28] and see the pattern in someone else's group

[00:07:30] and be able to like go through that with somebody else.

[00:07:33] I think it's always cathartic

[00:07:34] and I thought it would be also helpful for Nipi,

[00:07:36] which I think it was.

[00:07:38] Yes, it was for sure.

[00:07:39] It's always good to hear people's interpretation

[00:07:42] of the similar abuses and put language to it

[00:07:45] because language is all we have really.

[00:07:47] And so the way Sarah describes something,

[00:07:49] maybe I describe something and you describe something

[00:07:52] or different perspectives of the same abuse

[00:07:54] and it always deepens my understanding of it

[00:07:56] when I did articulate it in a certain way.

[00:07:58] So I got that from your book for sure.

[00:08:00] That's great.

[00:08:01] That means so much to me.

[00:08:02] First of all, I'm totally honored,

[00:08:04] totally honored to be on this podcast with you guys

[00:08:07] because I'm in awe of what you did.

[00:08:09] It's also good.

[00:08:10] You know, I feel like related to you

[00:08:11] because we went through something similar,

[00:08:13] so similar.

[00:08:14] It's good.

[00:08:15] It gives me hope for myself

[00:08:17] and for everybody else who's been in situations like this.

[00:08:20] So I think when people listen to this,

[00:08:22] they'll hear similarities, you know?

[00:08:24] For sure.

[00:08:25] Undeniable.

[00:08:26] I do feel that family relation,

[00:08:27] but not in a culty way.

[00:08:28] Not in a like, oh, your family,

[00:08:30] now I'm going to love bomb you.

[00:08:32] Also partly like the secular Jewish background,

[00:08:34] the sort of overall desire for more,

[00:08:37] you know, more meaning,

[00:08:39] connection with people, community,

[00:08:41] which actually leads me right into the first question.

[00:08:43] What did you think you were getting involved with?

[00:08:45] What was the hook for you?

[00:08:46] One of the things I really loved was the step by step,

[00:08:48] which you don't have to do here on the podcast,

[00:08:50] but you really brought the reader.

[00:08:52] You brought us through that process of

[00:08:54] you weren't like, sure, I'll do that.

[00:08:56] Like you said, know it first,

[00:08:57] then you kind of felt bad that you should maybe

[00:08:59] just give it a try.

[00:09:00] Right.

[00:09:01] Right?

[00:09:02] Obviously, like the premise of this whole thing is

[00:09:04] that it was secret.

[00:09:05] This group was secret and it was presented to me

[00:09:08] as an esoteric school where people could come

[00:09:11] to develop themselves along a

[00:09:15] ancient body of thought that went all the way

[00:09:18] back to Plato.

[00:09:20] So it wasn't just presented to me that way out of nowhere.

[00:09:24] I had known this guy named Bruce for a few months

[00:09:28] and he was a bartender at a bar where my band was playing.

[00:09:32] I was 29 years old.

[00:09:33] I was a lawyer.

[00:09:34] I was working really hard in a law firm.

[00:09:37] I had no social life, really,

[00:09:39] other than playing in a band at this point

[00:09:42] because I was just, you know,

[00:09:43] I was working 80 hours a week.

[00:09:44] You remember what it was like when you were 29?

[00:09:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:47] You know, and you're ambitious and, you know,

[00:09:49] you want some fun and I really wasn't looking

[00:09:52] for anything at this point,

[00:09:54] but I was looking for some fun in the sense

[00:09:56] of playing in my band.

[00:09:57] And so anyway, he was the bartender at this bar.

[00:09:59] We became friends.

[00:10:01] We chatted.

[00:10:02] He was a very impressive guy.

[00:10:03] You know, he was Ivy educated twice.

[00:10:06] He was an architecture school, smart,

[00:10:09] really good looking guy.

[00:10:10] He started asking to get together and have coffee

[00:10:14] and have lunch and he seemed to be pursuing me.

[00:10:17] It was a little weird,

[00:10:18] but you know, I was interested in being nice.

[00:10:21] And then finally one night he said,

[00:10:22] look, let's meet.

[00:10:23] I got to tell you something.

[00:10:24] I said, okay, fine, you know,

[00:10:26] I was suspicious, but I was curious

[00:10:28] and I met him and I could see how nervous he was.

[00:10:31] And he said, look, I have to tell you something.

[00:10:33] He said, look, this is something very special.

[00:10:35] I've never told anybody this before.

[00:10:37] I'm involved in, you know, esoteric school.

[00:10:40] And we had been talking along for a few months

[00:10:44] about like Play-Doh and philosophy

[00:10:46] and Shakespeare and art and music

[00:10:49] and things that I'm interested in.

[00:10:50] He vetted you already.

[00:10:51] Oh yeah, totally vetted you.

[00:10:52] Which you found out later.

[00:10:54] Which I found out later.

[00:10:56] But they had a very specific sophisticated method

[00:10:59] to both vet and lore and to keep it secret.

[00:11:02] So he swore me to secrecy.

[00:11:03] He said, would you like to come to this group?

[00:11:06] You know, it meets a couple nights a week.

[00:11:08] I think you'll get a lot from it.

[00:11:09] It changed my life.

[00:11:10] You know, I get now more what I want out of life.

[00:11:13] I said, no thank you.

[00:11:15] This sounds like a cult.

[00:11:16] Did you actually say the word cult?

[00:11:18] Oh yeah.

[00:11:19] Yeah.

[00:11:20] I was so offended that he would think

[00:11:22] that I would fucking go to his stupid little cult.

[00:11:25] I was so angry.

[00:11:26] I practically stormed out of there.

[00:11:28] And as soon as I got outside, I felt so bad

[00:11:31] because he was so nice about it.

[00:11:33] He was just telling me about this thing

[00:11:35] and you know, I felt guilty.

[00:11:37] And you know, here I am being, you know,

[00:11:39] a obnoxious New York lawyer.

[00:11:41] And I called him up.

[00:11:42] I said, okay fine.

[00:11:43] You know, let's me tell me more about it.

[00:11:45] And he told me more about it.

[00:11:47] He said just come for a month.

[00:11:48] You know, it's not a big deal.

[00:11:50] It's for free.

[00:11:51] And I said, fine.

[00:11:52] So what happened was he said before you come,

[00:11:55] he said it's not for everybody.

[00:11:57] May not be for you.

[00:11:58] But before you come,

[00:12:00] I'd like you to meet somebody else.

[00:12:02] I said, fine.

[00:12:03] A couple of nights later, we met at this very trendy restaurant.

[00:12:07] And I was like, who are we meeting?

[00:12:09] He said a friend.

[00:12:10] He wouldn't really tell me anything.

[00:12:12] And all of a sudden this very attractive woman

[00:12:15] comes over, taps him on the shoulder.

[00:12:17] They hug and they kiss and she sat down

[00:12:19] and all of a sudden I'm interested.

[00:12:21] He knew that I was interested in, you know, meeting women

[00:12:24] because I was single at the time.

[00:12:26] And they brought the nicest, hottest babe that they could.

[00:12:30] She wasn't like hitting on me or coming on.

[00:12:32] But I'm thinking, you know, if there's more like her at the group,

[00:12:35] I'll go.

[00:12:36] Now, by the way, Sarah,

[00:12:38] does this make me sound shallow and stupid?

[00:12:40] No.

[00:12:41] No.

[00:12:42] I don't think so.

[00:12:43] No.

[00:12:44] It's a normal thing.

[00:12:45] I have a 29.

[00:12:46] If somebody did this to me again today,

[00:12:47] I'd show up at the meeting.

[00:12:48] Can I share something that I noticed about that meeting

[00:12:50] for your book?

[00:12:51] Yeah.

[00:12:52] Is that when she sat down,

[00:12:54] she pumped your tires or edified you and said,

[00:12:57] oh, Bruce told me wonderful things about you.

[00:12:59] So you then were inflated,

[00:13:01] love bombed or whatever.

[00:13:03] You were instantly,

[00:13:04] your first hit of validation in this case

[00:13:06] in the attractive woman.

[00:13:07] This is when it really began right there.

[00:13:10] That's what I noticed.

[00:13:11] That's right.

[00:13:12] I felt good.

[00:13:13] Yeah.

[00:13:14] It was like a stranger.

[00:13:15] I found your hook.

[00:13:16] It was amazing.

[00:13:17] And we were taught to do that also, right?

[00:13:18] In next year,

[00:13:19] I don't think we had it written down in the same way,

[00:13:21] but we were definitely trained in the exact same way

[00:13:24] to recruit,

[00:13:25] which included vetting to a certain degree,

[00:13:27] but also connecting with the person

[00:13:29] and building rapport with them

[00:13:30] and getting into their world

[00:13:31] and having them feel good

[00:13:32] and safe and comfortable.

[00:13:34] I still think that Keith spent some time in this group

[00:13:37] or new people that spent some time in this group

[00:13:39] because the similarities

[00:13:40] and the strategies were mind-blowingly similar.

[00:13:43] So you say you're going to do this class

[00:13:45] and you get involved

[00:13:47] and you do your month.

[00:13:48] What causes you to stay past your month?

[00:13:51] What was so great there that made you stay?

[00:13:54] Was it when you lost your job

[00:13:56] and then...

[00:13:57] Yeah.

[00:13:58] Yeah.

[00:13:59] So I'm summarizing a little bit.

[00:14:00] So you lose your job

[00:14:01] and you show up

[00:14:02] and then this group of people,

[00:14:03] and I really felt this,

[00:14:04] I was like this group of people rallied around you

[00:14:06] and supported you

[00:14:07] in a way you've never experienced before.

[00:14:09] How good that must have felt.

[00:14:11] Exactly.

[00:14:12] Like I wasn't inclined to return after the first night

[00:14:14] and I only went because out of an obligation.

[00:14:17] But like you said,

[00:14:19] I lost my job

[00:14:20] and I was completely embraced by these people

[00:14:23] in a way that,

[00:14:24] you know, nobody in your life would really do.

[00:14:27] In a public way also.

[00:14:28] It was a room with 60 people

[00:14:30] and they're basically strangers

[00:14:32] and they really are being nice to you.

[00:14:35] I mean they really were.

[00:14:37] Their motivations for the leaders were awful

[00:14:40] but the rest of the members were genuine

[00:14:43] and you felt it.

[00:14:44] So how could I not check this out?

[00:14:47] And it was a crisis period

[00:14:49] because I needed to start a new business

[00:14:51] and they were very clear

[00:14:54] that they were going to help me

[00:14:56] spiritually and emotionally

[00:14:59] with this goal that I had,

[00:15:01] which was to open a new practice.

[00:15:03] Bad timing.

[00:15:04] And bad timing for you.

[00:15:05] Good timing for them.

[00:15:07] Because they hooked a big fish.

[00:15:09] They got a lawyer.

[00:15:10] And if you could just backtrack for a second

[00:15:13] and all of these details,

[00:15:14] I found so rich in the book

[00:15:15] like the way that you painted the backdrop

[00:15:17] of Manhattan with the music

[00:15:19] and the sounds and the smells

[00:15:21] and just the whole vibe.

[00:15:23] I felt really transported there

[00:15:25] and I thought that was great,

[00:15:26] including your first time going up

[00:15:28] to the secret space

[00:15:29] in the fabric house

[00:15:30] in the industrial area

[00:15:32] with a elevator and a crank

[00:15:34] which by the way,

[00:15:35] first red flag, right?

[00:15:36] Like if you're going to a secret space

[00:15:38] where you have to take an elevator

[00:15:39] with a crank

[00:15:40] that maybe this is something

[00:15:42] you should look into more, right?

[00:15:44] Like for our listeners, right?

[00:15:46] No judgment.

[00:15:47] Listen, no judgment from us.

[00:15:48] I gotta say, I get it.

[00:15:50] If I'm 20,

[00:15:51] I'm gonna check it out

[00:15:52] and I'm gonna check it out

[00:15:53] under the guise of

[00:15:55] I'm just gonna see what this is.

[00:15:56] I'm not gonna spend

[00:15:57] exactly a year or two, five, ten

[00:15:59] in this thing.

[00:16:00] And that's the thing.

[00:16:02] That's the thing that I think

[00:16:03] everyone can kind of relate to

[00:16:05] with this is like,

[00:16:06] yeah, yeah, I'm in New York.

[00:16:08] I'm young.

[00:16:09] I'm gonna go just,

[00:16:10] what does this button do?

[00:16:11] Do you know what I mean?

[00:16:13] Yeah, it wasn't a big ask.

[00:16:15] I mean they weren't asking for money.

[00:16:17] Right.

[00:16:18] And I'll check it out, you know?

[00:16:20] There's no obligation.

[00:16:22] Exactly.

[00:16:23] The people who recruited me,

[00:16:24] they seem to have this intense connection.

[00:16:27] I was like, I want that, you know?

[00:16:29] I get it.

[00:16:30] Like for me and Daz,

[00:16:31] the thing that was appealing was

[00:16:33] there is something exciting

[00:16:34] about being a part of a secret group.

[00:16:36] Amanda Montell talks about that

[00:16:37] in Kultisch.

[00:16:39] It's like the secret club.

[00:16:40] That's a thing from childhood

[00:16:42] to be a part of a secret club

[00:16:43] that people don't know about.

[00:16:44] Like there's a real draw for that

[00:16:46] for I think for a lot of people.

[00:16:47] It's exclusive.

[00:16:48] It's exclusive.

[00:16:49] And there's a crank, you know?

[00:16:51] What are you gonna do?

[00:16:52] So I really loved how you painted the picture

[00:16:55] of how the community,

[00:16:58] well and by community,

[00:16:59] well first of all, a secret.

[00:17:00] So like outside of school

[00:17:01] you didn't acknowledge each other.

[00:17:02] You weren't allowed to fraternize

[00:17:03] without the leader's permission,

[00:17:05] direct permission.

[00:17:06] But in class,

[00:17:08] when you showed up,

[00:17:09] the community aspect of the support

[00:17:11] and the business dealings,

[00:17:14] like when things were good,

[00:17:15] what was good about it?

[00:17:16] Okay.

[00:17:17] A lot was good about it.

[00:17:18] And let's go back to secrecy

[00:17:20] and exclusivity.

[00:17:21] I'm a lawyer.

[00:17:22] I was a lawyer

[00:17:24] and a lot of people there had,

[00:17:26] you know, fancy jobs

[00:17:27] and they had this,

[00:17:28] they had that.

[00:17:29] I think everybody loved

[00:17:30] the secrecy of it.

[00:17:31] The reason for the secrecy

[00:17:33] was very diabolical.

[00:17:34] We'll get to that later on.

[00:17:36] But it was born of the paranoia

[00:17:38] of the leaders.

[00:17:39] By the way,

[00:17:40] we did not meet for a year.

[00:17:42] We did not meet the leader

[00:17:43] for a year.

[00:17:44] But what drew us together

[00:17:46] was the secrecy,

[00:17:47] which required us

[00:17:49] not to talk to each other

[00:17:50] outside of the group.

[00:17:52] We didn't know each other's last names.

[00:17:54] I didn't have any phone numbers.

[00:17:55] After class,

[00:17:56] which met at a secret location

[00:17:58] and you couldn't tell anybody

[00:18:00] in your life about this.

[00:18:01] I mean, if somebody asked me

[00:18:02] where I was going tonight,

[00:18:03] I would just make up some story.

[00:18:05] I wasn't married,

[00:18:06] but there was people

[00:18:07] who didn't tell their spouses

[00:18:08] where they were going.

[00:18:09] And that created a lot of problems.

[00:18:11] But I could only see these people

[00:18:13] who I got to like in class.

[00:18:15] So that was really a big thing.

[00:18:18] I wanted to see this one

[00:18:20] and that one

[00:18:21] and hear their stories.

[00:18:23] And I was excited to see them

[00:18:24] and could only see them then.

[00:18:26] They have a monopoly

[00:18:27] over these friendships.

[00:18:28] They control these friendships.

[00:18:30] And I love,

[00:18:31] I was fine with that.

[00:18:32] How was that enforced?

[00:18:34] Purely by insisting,

[00:18:36] convincing us

[00:18:38] that it was for our best interests

[00:18:42] to keep it secret

[00:18:43] and that nobody outside of the school

[00:18:47] would understand what you're doing

[00:18:49] and that it's an esoteric school

[00:18:51] which by definition is secret.

[00:18:52] And so that it would just,

[00:18:54] you know, ruin your experience

[00:18:55] if you told anybody about it.

[00:18:56] By the way,

[00:18:57] that in and of itself

[00:18:58] is a thought stopping cliche

[00:19:00] if you've been following

[00:19:01] our interview with Amanda Montell.

[00:19:02] Like, oh, it's an esoteric school.

[00:19:04] An esoteric by definition

[00:19:05] means secret.

[00:19:06] So therefore it's secret.

[00:19:07] Like it doesn't actually mean anything.

[00:19:10] Like we've just decided

[00:19:11] it's an esoteric school.

[00:19:12] Esoteric by definition means secret

[00:19:14] and only understood

[00:19:15] by a small portion of societies.

[00:19:16] Therefore it is secret.

[00:19:18] But like what makes it an esoteric school?

[00:19:20] You know what I mean?

[00:19:21] Like that it's circular.

[00:19:22] It doesn't actually answer

[00:19:23] but why is it an esoteric school?

[00:19:25] Right?

[00:19:26] Because we said it is.

[00:19:27] Because we said it is.

[00:19:28] Because we said it is.

[00:19:29] Because we said it is

[00:19:30] and it suits our purposes

[00:19:31] of operating onto the radar.

[00:19:33] And also it asserts another purpose

[00:19:35] which is it isolates you

[00:19:37] from people who you would ordinarily

[00:19:39] tell everything about

[00:19:40] and it creates fissures

[00:19:42] in relationships with the rest of your world.

[00:19:45] Keeping the secret has natural fissures

[00:19:48] and ripple effects, right?

[00:19:49] Correct.

[00:19:50] It has to.

[00:19:51] There's no way.

[00:19:52] There's no way to have that

[00:19:53] without affecting your relationships.

[00:19:54] And then that is something

[00:19:55] that I think is such a clear red flag

[00:19:58] in our episode of Alexander Stein

[00:20:00] who wrote terror, love and brainwashing

[00:20:02] if our listeners remember

[00:20:03] that was one of her key things.

[00:20:04] The leaders isolate you from your friends and family.

[00:20:07] That's like the first step, right?

[00:20:09] And this is also just to draw the parallel with Nexium

[00:20:12] in our mission statement

[00:20:13] we had a line of

[00:20:14] I will no way speak of them

[00:20:16] or give others knowledge of them outside of.

[00:20:18] The information is confidential

[00:20:20] and from my use only.

[00:20:21] The information is from my use only.

[00:20:22] I will no way speak of it

[00:20:24] or give others knowledge of it outside of ESP

[00:20:26] so that had that tenant

[00:20:28] in the mission statement

[00:20:29] but then people would always say

[00:20:30] you know at the end of the five day

[00:20:31] when we're supposed to bring people in

[00:20:33] they'd be like

[00:20:34] so I'm not a secret

[00:20:36] but how do I bring people in without talking?

[00:20:37] Like people are always confused.

[00:20:39] It's a total counter command

[00:20:41] like two totally different things.

[00:20:43] Well then they'd say

[00:20:44] well we want you to share your success

[00:20:46] and bring people in

[00:20:47] but you can't tell them what you're doing here.

[00:20:49] You can't teach them the tech.

[00:20:51] Basically they said

[00:20:52] we don't want you to teach the tech

[00:20:53] because A, you're not trained

[00:20:55] B, you're gonna water it down

[00:20:57] C, you could hurt somebody.

[00:20:58] Right all these things they said to us

[00:21:00] The argument was you compromise

[00:21:02] the integrity of how the inductive nature

[00:21:04] of our curriculum

[00:21:05] The inductive nature

[00:21:06] like you wouldn't invite someone to a movie

[00:21:08] and tell them the ending right?

[00:21:09] So you can invite someone to a movie

[00:21:11] but you don't tell them what the movie's about

[00:21:12] you just say come trust me

[00:21:14] that's how that was sort of justified in our group

[00:21:16] Okay so that's total red flag

[00:21:18] I believe that

[00:21:19] didn't you believe that Sarah?

[00:21:20] No yeah, no absolutely we all believed it

[00:21:22] I believed it

[00:21:23] Yeah

[00:21:24] You know it's step by step

[00:21:25] all of a sudden

[00:21:26] and I resisted the idea of secrecy

[00:21:28] when they first heard it

[00:21:29] but it started to make sense

[00:21:31] and they always said verify that this works for you

[00:21:34] if it doesn't work for you go

[00:21:35] but you have to verify it

[00:21:36] and you know

[00:21:37] they get you to enforce it Nipi

[00:21:39] because they make you think it's in your best interest

[00:21:42] and it was that simple

[00:21:43] so that's how they enforced the secrecy of it

[00:21:46] you know if people broke the rule

[00:21:48] they had to come in

[00:21:49] and do what did you guys do

[00:21:50] a breach statement or something like that

[00:21:52] we had to do a public confession

[00:21:54] in front of 60 people

[00:21:56] and it was humiliating

[00:21:59] and you were required to be truthful about everything

[00:22:02] which of course

[00:22:03] which is only for your benefit

[00:22:05] you know like for instance if after class

[00:22:07] there was a guy in class

[00:22:09] who after class

[00:22:10] walked with one of the women after class

[00:22:12] right and started like

[00:22:14] let's go out for a drink

[00:22:15] okay

[00:22:16] so she came back to class the next night

[00:22:19] and reported him

[00:22:21] for breaking the quote hour of silence

[00:22:24] and she was taken to Cape after every class

[00:22:26] these were all really smart people who I respected

[00:22:29] and if I ever had doubts

[00:22:31] I just had to look over

[00:22:33] and look at you know Mark or Karen

[00:22:35] whoever was there

[00:22:37] and see that they were doing the same things

[00:22:40] and they were following the protocol

[00:22:42] I figured why not

[00:22:44] it's good enough for them

[00:22:45] it's good enough for me

[00:22:46] right I think next time did the same thing

[00:22:48] they use certain people to

[00:22:50] give the validity

[00:22:51] you know especially once Hollywood

[00:22:53] sort of roped in

[00:22:54] and a lot of subtle name dropping

[00:22:56] and for sure when you're in a group

[00:22:58] where you look around

[00:22:59] and you relate to the people around you

[00:23:00] that makes you feel like okay

[00:23:02] if they're getting it

[00:23:03] then if I'm not getting it

[00:23:04] maybe something's wrong with me

[00:23:06] I'm gonna get it

[00:23:07] well there's a culture of fear

[00:23:08] that was created it sounds like

[00:23:09] yeah

[00:23:10] it was a very concentrated culture of fear

[00:23:12] that's why Keith wanted people to move to Albany

[00:23:14] because he would create it there

[00:23:15] but when we would leave that purview Sarah

[00:23:17] it was looser reigns

[00:23:19] but yours felt like your only relationship

[00:23:22] in the class was in that culture

[00:23:24] and then when you left that culture

[00:23:25] you didn't have that dynamic

[00:23:27] yeah there was no way to get away from them

[00:23:30] because look we met two nights a week

[00:23:33] and then it became more and more

[00:23:35] nights a week as the time went by

[00:23:37] and I eventually got married to somebody in the group

[00:23:39] and then my biggest client

[00:23:41] was in the group

[00:23:42] so I was surrounded by it all the time

[00:23:45] and these were true believers

[00:23:47] who were extremely devoted

[00:23:50] and to this day both of those people

[00:23:52] are still in the group

[00:23:53] wow

[00:23:54] that's wild

[00:23:55] it was all encompassing

[00:23:57] we never got away

[00:23:58] you couldn't get away

[00:23:59] you had people calling you every day

[00:24:01] to check in on you

[00:24:03] we were required to check in on other people

[00:24:05] there was no physical getting away

[00:24:07] or mentally getting away

[00:24:09] yeah it seemed like we'll get into this

[00:24:11] more later but the leaders really

[00:24:13] in creating marriages

[00:24:15] not only created marriages and partnerships

[00:24:17] that weren't healthy

[00:24:19] for various reasons like weren't good fits

[00:24:21] especially when you had a child with your wife

[00:24:23] and she wants to stay

[00:24:24] and then this is a red flag for later

[00:24:26] but I have to say it now

[00:24:27] so don't forget

[00:24:28] when she then promotes Beth

[00:24:30] to a higher

[00:24:31] in our situation would be a higher rank than you

[00:24:34] that was just so unhealthy

[00:24:36] and also that happened at a time

[00:24:38] when you guys were considering leaving

[00:24:40] that happened in our group too

[00:24:42] when that coup happened

[00:24:43] when Nippy and I left with a bunch of people

[00:24:44] there were people who were on the fence

[00:24:46] who were like wait branding what

[00:24:47] and some of those people got huge promotions

[00:24:50] and jumped stripes

[00:24:52] right and got big rank promotions

[00:24:54] and like were put on payroll

[00:24:56] and given a bunch of money

[00:24:58] and like they were basically bribed

[00:25:00] you know and that's what they did to your wife

[00:25:02] right they bribed her to stay

[00:25:04] that's exactly tell us the first major

[00:25:06] and the thing that I clocked in reading your book

[00:25:08] and I don't know if this is right

[00:25:09] but when you got accused of lying

[00:25:11] can you tell us the over the rainbow

[00:25:12] over the rainbow song moment

[00:25:14] because that was my first time that I was like oh dear

[00:25:16] here it goes

[00:25:17] so the first moment was

[00:25:19] we were preparing for a Christmas party

[00:25:21] and by the way just so you know

[00:25:23] Christmas party is ironic since all of the leaders

[00:25:25] were Jewish of this group

[00:25:27] and most of the people in the group

[00:25:30] were Jewish I think half Jewish

[00:25:32] and half Irish

[00:25:33] oh interesting

[00:25:34] right we're planning a Christmas party

[00:25:35] and some of us you know we were all

[00:25:37] assigned different tasks

[00:25:38] and supposed to do different things

[00:25:40] and mine was to be the DJ

[00:25:42] one of the leaders there had asked me

[00:25:44] to come up with a list of songs

[00:25:46] and I gave her the list of songs

[00:25:48] and she saw it somewhere over the rainbow

[00:25:50] and she said that song shouldn't be on there

[00:25:53] Fred who was one of the teachers

[00:25:55] hates that song

[00:25:56] he told you not to put that on there

[00:25:58] he didn't

[00:25:59] so I said he didn't

[00:26:01] you knew that he didn't

[00:26:02] he never said a damn word about anything

[00:26:04] he never told me what to put on there

[00:26:06] or what not to put on

[00:26:07] I just came up with a list

[00:26:08] and I thought some of your over the rainbow

[00:26:10] was a nice song I guess

[00:26:12] anyway she freaked out

[00:26:14] because it was on the list

[00:26:15] and then she freaked out even more

[00:26:17] because I denied having been told

[00:26:20] that it was on the list

[00:26:21] because I hadn't been told about it

[00:26:23] well she in the classroom shrieked

[00:26:25] liar

[00:26:26] she called me a liar

[00:26:27] and I'm like denying

[00:26:29] that I'm lying

[00:26:31] as I'm denying she went even crazier

[00:26:34] and crazier

[00:26:35] and got so angry

[00:26:36] it was so embarrassing and humiliating

[00:26:38] you know one of the tenets

[00:26:40] of the work which is what we studied

[00:26:42] which is the fourth weight Gertrude

[00:26:44] work

[00:26:45] was that other people see us

[00:26:47] better than we see ourselves

[00:26:49] we're always wrong

[00:26:50] in respect to our next step

[00:26:53] and especially teachers

[00:26:55] and leaders

[00:26:56] older students

[00:26:57] can see us better than ourselves

[00:26:59] and so this is one of the ground rules

[00:27:01] and I've only been in there

[00:27:02] for a couple months

[00:27:03] wow

[00:27:04] so it's a ground rule that basically

[00:27:06] other people know

[00:27:08] things better than I do

[00:27:10] and I came around

[00:27:12] to agreeing that she was right

[00:27:14] because of that was one of the rules

[00:27:16] the public humiliation

[00:27:18] and my own self-doubt

[00:27:20] I just all of a sudden said

[00:27:21] wait a second

[00:27:22] you know maybe I'm wrong

[00:27:23] I mean how many times in a day do you say

[00:27:25] maybe I'm wrong

[00:27:26] a lot

[00:27:27] we always do it

[00:27:28] we're not sure about things

[00:27:29] it's a healthy mechanism to have

[00:27:30] it's a good mechanism to have

[00:27:32] but they knew that this mechanism

[00:27:34] can be used against you very much

[00:27:36] and that's what happened

[00:27:38] and that was the first time

[00:27:39] I was really gaslighted

[00:27:40] heavy duty

[00:27:41] yeah it was such a great example

[00:27:43] of also how you explain

[00:27:44] the internal process

[00:27:45] of being like

[00:27:46] I know this didn't happen

[00:27:47] but I want this to stop

[00:27:49] I don't want to be humiliated anymore

[00:27:51] and

[00:27:52] it happened a lot in Nexium

[00:27:54] where people would give you feedback

[00:27:55] and I quickly learned

[00:27:57] that to defend in any way

[00:27:59] even if the feedback was

[00:28:00] totally off

[00:28:01] totally off

[00:28:02] that if I didn't say anything other than

[00:28:04] thank you so much for that feedback

[00:28:05] I will go journal on it

[00:28:07] or I'm going to go think about that

[00:28:08] or work on that with my coach

[00:28:09] anything other than that

[00:28:10] you were fucked

[00:28:11] right

[00:28:12] also not only say

[00:28:13] agree

[00:28:14] but

[00:28:15] your tone

[00:28:16] had to be

[00:28:17] in agreement

[00:28:18] and grateful

[00:28:19] yeah

[00:28:20] thank you

[00:28:21] and sound like you mean it

[00:28:22] so you end up lying

[00:28:24] in such

[00:28:25] you have to grovel

[00:28:26] basically

[00:28:27] and that's the only way there were

[00:28:28] a lot of groveling

[00:28:29] the fundamental problem

[00:28:30] with that dogma

[00:28:31] because it's not a rule

[00:28:32] it's dogma

[00:28:33] is that it gives your

[00:28:35] self-awareness

[00:28:36] over to someone else

[00:28:37] so

[00:28:38] if you're building your

[00:28:39] conscious in your own self-awareness

[00:28:40] you have to learn to trust

[00:28:41] the mechanism of what you're seeing

[00:28:42] correct

[00:28:43] and this basically says

[00:28:45] whatever you have going on with you

[00:28:47] that's well developed

[00:28:48] and you're witnessing

[00:28:49] you're experiencing

[00:28:50] is less valid than someone else's

[00:28:51] perception

[00:28:52] of you

[00:28:53] and your own self-awareness

[00:28:54] that's right for abuse

[00:28:55] in any scenario

[00:28:56] later you talk about

[00:28:57] even when you got out

[00:28:58] and we all know

[00:28:59] that you got out

[00:29:00] because here we are talking

[00:29:01] your sense of self was so eroded

[00:29:02] you were depressed

[00:29:03] and you were just lost

[00:29:04] and one of your therapists

[00:29:06] said something about like

[00:29:07] helping you understand

[00:29:08] the concept of like

[00:29:09] principle witness

[00:29:10] right

[00:29:11] like basically learning

[00:29:12] to trust your own experience

[00:29:13] again

[00:29:14] because basically what this did

[00:29:16] for you 23 years

[00:29:17] for us 12 years

[00:29:18] respectively

[00:29:19] is you're saying

[00:29:20] I don't know myself

[00:29:21] I'm coming to you

[00:29:22] to teach me how to grow

[00:29:24] spiritually, emotionally

[00:29:26] physically everything

[00:29:27] I'm handing that over to you

[00:29:28] as an authority

[00:29:29] because you're a higher rank

[00:29:30] and it's so right for abuse

[00:29:32] and there's nothing you can say

[00:29:34] as soon as you agree to that

[00:29:36] as soon as you agree to a system

[00:29:38] whether it's martial arts

[00:29:39] whether it's crossfit

[00:29:40] whether it's yoga

[00:29:41] whether it's military

[00:29:43] like any ranking system

[00:29:44] or the person above you

[00:29:45] knows better

[00:29:46] that's right for abuse

[00:29:47] and you reminded me

[00:29:48] of the first time

[00:29:49] I pushed back

[00:29:50] on that type of gaslighting

[00:29:51] was with

[00:29:52] a woman

[00:29:53] fellow green sash

[00:29:54] but had more stripes

[00:29:55] on her sash

[00:29:56] and she'd been in there longer

[00:29:57] and she's a mom

[00:29:58] and had four kids

[00:29:59] higher rank than me

[00:30:00] right even though I was

[00:30:01] a better recruiter

[00:30:02] but we're not going to talk about that

[00:30:03] anyway

[00:30:05] she's in Vancouver

[00:30:06] and we're supposed to spend time together

[00:30:08] and I'm opening a training

[00:30:10] and her partner

[00:30:11] was like running the training

[00:30:12] and I was like in the center

[00:30:13] and she's like

[00:30:14] you know I'm in Kitsulano

[00:30:15] it's an area in Vancouver

[00:30:16] you know let me know when you're done

[00:30:17] and we're like texting

[00:30:18] but basically what happened

[00:30:19] is that like she didn't get back to me

[00:30:20] right

[00:30:21] so I stayed in the training longer

[00:30:22] and then she was super

[00:30:23] in my opinion flaky

[00:30:25] and hard to communicate with

[00:30:26] over text which is fine

[00:30:27] and anyway

[00:30:28] long story short

[00:30:29] I ended up not coming to see her

[00:30:30] because she hadn't gotten back to me

[00:30:31] so I stayed in the training

[00:30:32] because I guess she's busy

[00:30:33] finally when we see each other

[00:30:34] she launches into me

[00:30:36] about how I missed an opportunity

[00:30:38] to build our friendship

[00:30:39] but basically not just coming

[00:30:40] and waiting for her to be done

[00:30:41] whatever she was doing

[00:30:42] staying in the training

[00:30:43] meant we had less time together

[00:30:45] and I was like

[00:30:46] I don't actually think that's true

[00:30:47] my friendship is important to you

[00:30:49] and I was willing to hear back from you

[00:30:50] and I didn't hear back from you

[00:30:51] I stayed in the training

[00:30:52] she just basically

[00:30:53] gave me the feedback

[00:30:54] that choosing materialism

[00:30:56] over humanity

[00:30:57] and how I would never be a good friend

[00:31:00] if I couldn't be honest

[00:31:01] about what I really want

[00:31:02] like this whole fucking bullshit

[00:31:04] diatribe that didn't resonate

[00:31:05] in any way, shape or form to me

[00:31:07] and I just said

[00:31:08] listen respectfully

[00:31:09] I really disagree

[00:31:10] and she'd be like

[00:31:11] well you know

[00:31:12] I'm just trying to help you

[00:31:13] if you don't want to grow

[00:31:14] that's fine

[00:31:15] that's okay

[00:31:16] you don't have to look at it

[00:31:17] and that was something

[00:31:18] that I learned to say that also

[00:31:19] like it's okay

[00:31:20] like I'm just telling you

[00:31:21] what I see

[00:31:22] you don't take it or leave it

[00:31:23] which was sort of like

[00:31:24] a softer version

[00:31:25] of the gaslighting

[00:31:26] but you can give feedback

[00:31:28] in a loving way

[00:31:29] it's possible

[00:31:30] that is possible

[00:31:31] but what this gaslighting thing

[00:31:33] allows people

[00:31:34] allows people to be mean

[00:31:35] mean people to be mean

[00:31:36] with the guys of helping you

[00:31:38] right and it's interesting

[00:31:39] I guess one way that

[00:31:41] you could prove all that

[00:31:42] is when you reconnect with people

[00:31:44] after leaving the cult

[00:31:46] because those relationships

[00:31:47] then don't have any of those

[00:31:49] dynamics of control

[00:31:50] right

[00:31:51] and whatnot

[00:31:52] and so that

[00:31:53] you can open up to those people

[00:31:54] and they'll treat you

[00:31:55] empathetically like a normal situation

[00:31:57] but when you give up your

[00:31:59] your agency to anyone

[00:32:02] in a hierarchical situation

[00:32:04] even ones that are benign

[00:32:06] like college

[00:32:07] you know

[00:32:08] you give up a certain degree

[00:32:09] and you're open

[00:32:10] to learning

[00:32:11] and whatnot

[00:32:12] and those are benign situations

[00:32:14] and it's good for you

[00:32:15] to be open

[00:32:17] and accept criticism

[00:32:19] but those are benign situations

[00:32:21] and that's a natural good thing

[00:32:23] but when you're in a diabolical situation

[00:32:26] that you don't know about

[00:32:28] that you don't know it's diabolical

[00:32:30] it's really hard

[00:32:31] it's really hard

[00:32:32] it's really hard

[00:32:33] we even ask people

[00:32:34] the first day of the five-day

[00:32:35] people would stand up at the front of the room

[00:32:36] and they'd be like

[00:32:37] hi I'm Sarah

[00:32:38] I'm here because

[00:32:39] someone told me this is a great program

[00:32:40] and I really want to get more connected

[00:32:42] to myself and my goals

[00:32:43] and like work through

[00:32:44] blah blah blah issue

[00:32:45] and then the facilitator would say

[00:32:47] in what number are you

[00:32:48] from one to ten

[00:32:49] ten being

[00:32:50] tell me everything you see

[00:32:51] I'm here to grow

[00:32:52] give me all the feedback

[00:32:53] and you're basically

[00:32:54] giving them permission

[00:32:56] to do that

[00:32:57] one being I'm just

[00:32:58] abuse

[00:32:59] one being I'm here to observe

[00:33:00] don't talk to me

[00:33:02] right

[00:33:03] well who wouldn't want to be a ten

[00:33:05] I'm a ten

[00:33:06] I'm a fucking eleven

[00:33:07] no it's Spencer

[00:33:08] tell me

[00:33:09] I also said I was an eleven

[00:33:10] let me

[00:33:11] come on

[00:33:12] tell me what's wrong with me

[00:33:13] what the fuck is wrong with me

[00:33:14] every single training

[00:33:15] there'd be someone like us

[00:33:16] who'd say

[00:33:17] I'm an eleven

[00:33:18] everyone would laugh

[00:33:19] and every now and then

[00:33:20] there'd be like an eight

[00:33:21] and never anything less than that

[00:33:23] so people are saying

[00:33:24] from the beginning

[00:33:25] you're the authority

[00:33:26] I'm here to learn

[00:33:27] I paid money

[00:33:28] give me what you got

[00:33:29] right for abuse

[00:33:30] right there

[00:33:31] right in the wrong hands

[00:33:32] in the wrong hands

[00:33:33] yeah

[00:33:34] you're not signing up

[00:33:35] for an abuse program

[00:33:36] and then coming back

[00:33:37] you're signing up

[00:33:38] for people who've been

[00:33:39] the right hands

[00:33:40] are doing it

[00:33:41] you create buy-in

[00:33:42] and then

[00:33:43] whenever people want to abuse

[00:33:44] that mechanism

[00:33:45] it's bound to happen

[00:33:46] like I remember giving people

[00:33:47] feedback in those first five

[00:33:48] days that was really helpful

[00:33:49] for them

[00:33:50] I would deflect with humor

[00:33:51] and I would pull them aside

[00:33:52] and be like look

[00:33:53] you paid good money

[00:33:54] and I see every time we get close

[00:33:55] to something

[00:33:56] you kind of make a joke

[00:33:57] and you're a bit of the class clown

[00:33:58] right

[00:33:59] and the person would be like

[00:34:00] yeah that's sort of my shtick

[00:34:01] and I'm like well

[00:34:02] you can keep doing that

[00:34:03] or you can drop it

[00:34:04] and kind of we can get a little deeper

[00:34:05] what do you want to do

[00:34:06] that would be

[00:34:07] something that I might have said

[00:34:08] right

[00:34:09] in fact I remember

[00:34:10] saying it to somebody

[00:34:11] I did it all the time

[00:34:12] I mean we were always taught

[00:34:14] to help each other

[00:34:15] yeah

[00:34:16] and part of helping each other

[00:34:17] we had one day

[00:34:18] oh we had one time

[00:34:19] where we were encouraged

[00:34:21] to give five critiques

[00:34:23] to our friends

[00:34:25] about their essence floors

[00:34:27] I think you guys had something

[00:34:28] an essence floor also

[00:34:30] which was like

[00:34:31] their biggest weakness

[00:34:32] and like

[00:34:33] what all the other problems

[00:34:34] ran around

[00:34:35] it was called the life issue

[00:34:37] right

[00:34:38] right

[00:34:39] exactly

[00:34:40] and so we had that

[00:34:41] and we were told to tell

[00:34:42] our friends

[00:34:43] that was the best thing

[00:34:44] we could do

[00:34:45] was basically to give them criticism

[00:34:46] it wasn't called constructive criticism

[00:34:48] it was called criticism

[00:34:49] and they had a number of ones for me

[00:34:51] none of which are true

[00:34:52] but if you say any of these things to me

[00:34:55] they pushed a button so hard

[00:34:57] that I was not in control

[00:35:00] and was so susceptible

[00:35:02] to criticism

[00:35:03] I'm sure they had them for you guys

[00:35:05] oh yeah

[00:35:06] we're human beings

[00:35:07] everyone's got that

[00:35:08] everyone's got that nerve

[00:35:09] that's the human thing

[00:35:10] right

[00:35:11] exactly

[00:35:45] and so we had to do a

[00:35:49] the Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family

[00:35:52] but everything wasn't as it seemed

[00:35:54] I just had a 12 year old boy

[00:35:56] who appeared asking for help

[00:35:58] he's emaciated

[00:36:04] he's got tape around his legs

[00:36:06] Ruby, Franky,

[00:36:08] and I got out and I got out

[00:36:10] I got out

[00:36:11] and I got out

[00:36:12] and I got out

[00:36:13] and I got out

[00:36:14] and I got out

[00:36:15] and I got out

[00:36:16] and I got out

[00:36:17] and I got out

[00:36:18] and I got out

[00:36:19] and I got out

[00:36:20] and I got out

[00:36:21] and I got out

[00:36:22] and I got out

[00:36:23] and I got out

[00:36:24] and I got out

[00:36:25] and I got out

[00:36:26] and I got out

[00:36:27] and I got out

[00:36:28] and I got out

[00:36:29] and I got out

[00:36:30] and I got out

[00:36:31] and I got out

[00:36:32] and I got out

[00:36:33] and I got out

[00:36:34] and I got out

[00:36:35] and I got out

[00:36:36] and I got out

[00:36:37] and I got out

[00:36:38] and I got out

[00:36:39] and I got out

[00:36:40] and I got out

[00:36:41] and I got out

[00:36:42] and I got out

[00:36:43] and I got out

[00:36:44] and I got out

[00:36:45] and I got out

[00:36:46] and I got out

[00:36:47] and families. Now, through January 31st, you can purchase an icon in-store or online, or

[00:36:53] watch out for the blue feeding the hungry Shelf Tags, where a portion of your purchase

[00:36:58] will be donated to local pantries. Together, we can combat hunger in our local communities

[00:37:03] at Macy's.

[00:37:04] So, things are good. There's all these elaborate parties and you're feeling part

[00:37:11] of this elite group. What were some of the exercises that were helpful at first?

[00:37:14] I noted remembering yourself was something that you did. Can you give us like a

[00:37:18] day in the life in the secret group?

[00:37:20] A day in the life is a great question because that was the whole point of going

[00:37:24] to class at night, which was to use the ideas in your life. So during the day, I

[00:37:29] mean, I was a lawyer, other people were, they were entrepreneurs, they were brokers,

[00:37:34] they were this, they were that, and we were told to use the principles of the

[00:37:37] work in our day. One of the big ones that I loved was this idea of aim. So

[00:37:42] the idea was that in order to accomplish anything, anything to

[00:37:46] accomplish any goal, the laws of the universe were such that you couldn't

[00:37:51] achieve them unless you did something called remembering yourself.

[00:37:55] You may accidentally achieve something, but it's not with consciousness.

[00:37:59] It's not with awareness. So you needed to remember yourself, which I only

[00:38:04] realized, you know, after I left that it was never defined.

[00:38:08] There's no definition of it. And when we asked what it was, Fred, the

[00:38:12] leader would say, in fact, when he first introduced the idea, he said,

[00:38:15] what you have to do is you have to remember yourself in order to make

[00:38:18] an aim. And we would go like, could you tell us what remembering yourself

[00:38:23] is? And he would say in class, he'd say, it's when you remember yourself.

[00:38:28] And we would say, well, you know, what is that?

[00:38:31] You know, how do you do that? He said, remember yourself.

[00:38:36] He put his hand on his heart.

[00:38:38] I can totally picture that.

[00:38:39] Right. And then some of the older students would say, like, if I was

[00:38:43] asking that question and I was a newbie and an older student would say,

[00:38:46] Spencer, right now you're not remembering yourself.

[00:38:54] I would be like, great, great, we're getting somewhere.

[00:38:56] So we notice like to not remember myself.

[00:38:58] So how do you know? Let's do the.

[00:39:00] Right. Exactly. And then I'd say, well, I don't, you know,

[00:39:03] you're not explaining it.

[00:39:05] And then another student would say, well, now, Spencer,

[00:39:08] you're really outside of yourself right now.

[00:39:10] You're not remembering yourself.

[00:39:11] And then I'd be embarrassed and I'd sort of calm down and I'd say,

[00:39:16] oh, I know what you mean.

[00:39:18] And so right now I'm just basically humiliated into silence.

[00:39:22] Right. And they'd say that's remembering yourself.

[00:39:25] Because you're present. You're just present.

[00:39:27] You're just like, here I am. I'm present.

[00:39:28] I look present. I'm acting present.

[00:39:30] They're telling me I'm present.

[00:39:32] But really what I am is I'm exhausted because I can't fucking say

[00:39:37] what the fuck is going on because they've shut me down.

[00:39:39] Right. And now I think I'm remembering self.

[00:39:41] So basically remembering yourself is whatever they tell you what it is.

[00:39:45] It's being obedient. It's being obedient.

[00:39:47] It seemed a little bit too like, if I picture the hands on the heart

[00:39:50] is like what we call the next seem like being connected to yourself.

[00:39:54] Right. And they were always saying it's like pulling from Buddhism

[00:39:57] and like spirituality 101 and like some God forbid,

[00:40:00] like some Osho meditation or whatever.

[00:40:03] But like they were saying that's a good thing, right?

[00:40:05] To be present and to be connected with yourself

[00:40:08] and your true authentic self.

[00:40:09] That is a good spiritual practice.

[00:40:11] But the problem is they didn't they didn't tell you how to do it.

[00:40:15] So you were kind of faking it. Correct.

[00:40:17] For approval or just to fucking leave me alone.

[00:40:20] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:22] Like I said, thank you for the feedback.

[00:40:24] I'll go journal on that.

[00:40:25] Remember the one training where we had the experience?

[00:40:27] The experience.

[00:40:28] Oh, basically, they had us all in witness state.

[00:40:30] I was like, this is fucking bullshit.

[00:40:31] I've learned about it.

[00:40:32] What was it?

[00:40:33] You said kind of like a meditation thing.

[00:40:35] You kind of meditate and people will be like, oh, yeah, I see that.

[00:40:38] I just be like, give me a fuck out of here.

[00:40:40] Spencer, I've seen it in other modalities.

[00:40:42] It's basically what they call like the witness state or observer state.

[00:40:45] And they talk about this in other parts of the training too.

[00:40:48] And next year and then we're like something can happen

[00:40:50] and you can observe it.

[00:40:52] Like you're not in the drama of the movie.

[00:40:54] Like can you ever seen like a really, really sad movie

[00:40:56] and you cry but then you leave the theater and you're okay?

[00:40:59] Right.

[00:41:00] And they would talk about you can just sit in the theater

[00:41:02] and eat your popcorn.

[00:41:03] You can observe it like an observer eating pot.

[00:41:05] So they'd even talk about like eating your inner popcorn.

[00:41:07] Great tool.

[00:41:08] Well, suffice to say it's a nebulous description.

[00:41:11] Well, no, I mean, it's taught in a lot of modalities

[00:41:14] of different spiritual practices, the observer state.

[00:41:17] But like if you were to take me out of it and isolate us

[00:41:20] and we were to give Spencer a definition

[00:41:22] it'd be two totally different fucking definitions.

[00:41:24] Sure. Yeah, they didn't teach it properly

[00:41:25] and people were faking it for sure.

[00:41:27] My point being is it's related a little bit

[00:41:30] to what you talked about when they took you

[00:41:31] to that boxing ring and somebody said

[00:41:34] that you stop identifying with your body, right?

[00:41:37] So you're like can experience pain

[00:41:39] and like not freak out about it?

[00:41:41] I mean, that's a legitimate thing.

[00:41:42] Great tool, great tool.

[00:41:44] Absolutely. Great tool.

[00:41:45] And I loved all these ideas.

[00:41:46] I loved my day.

[00:41:48] I loved trying to remember to myself

[00:41:50] and I love the ideas of AIME

[00:41:52] and I love this thing about not being identified

[00:41:55] with your body and who the hell wouldn't want

[00:41:57] to be in a great state?

[00:41:58] Yeah. I mean, it was an illusory thing

[00:42:01] because they really weren't showing you

[00:42:02] how to do any of these things.

[00:42:04] They were just basically criticizing you

[00:42:06] for not being able to do it.

[00:42:07] So, huh? I mean, it was just a mess.

[00:42:10] Huh is the right response?

[00:42:12] It was a mess.

[00:42:13] It grooms you.

[00:42:13] It grooms you also because when you do the boxing thing

[00:42:16] and you're able to go through physical violence

[00:42:17] and then you leave that going,

[00:42:18] I'm faking tough as nails

[00:42:20] and I just did this thing

[00:42:20] and you're elated on that.

[00:42:22] Cut to like a year later

[00:42:23] when you're invited to her private ranch

[00:42:25] for the retreat and you're asked to do

[00:42:27] like really hard physical manual labor.

[00:42:30] You've already been taught like, okay,

[00:42:33] I'm not my body.

[00:42:34] I'm not gonna identify with this pain.

[00:42:36] Oh, I like I'm hurting from head to toe

[00:42:39] from doing like a construction job

[00:42:41] that also you weren't trained for

[00:42:42] with your soft lawyer hands, right?

[00:42:45] You know, and then the next thing you know,

[00:42:47] you're like, oh, but this is an honor

[00:42:49] because like Sharon asked me to do it,

[00:42:51] which by the way, huge red flag

[00:42:53] and number one parallel between Sharon

[00:42:55] and more so Nancy, well, Keith too,

[00:42:57] but like both of them had minions around them

[00:43:00] at all times taking care of their every need

[00:43:02] and making sure that she had the coffee

[00:43:05] and that her hair was done.

[00:43:06] And it was a little less obvious

[00:43:09] than the way you describe Sharon

[00:43:11] being like brought in on the wooden platform

[00:43:13] and like hoisted into her lazy boy chair

[00:43:16] and her vodka and her flour.

[00:43:19] I mean, Nancy had her other thing.

[00:43:20] There was always a bouquet of flowers.

[00:43:22] Really?

[00:43:23] Yeah, always a bouquet.

[00:43:23] She always had a big bouquet of flowers

[00:43:25] and she always had like a microphone

[00:43:27] and lighting. On her birthday.

[00:43:28] Well, oh, then also by the way,

[00:43:30] like I was laughing about the lavishness

[00:43:32] displayed to your leader, Sharon, on her birthday.

[00:43:34] Nancy had the festival of flowers where...

[00:43:37] Oh gosh.

[00:43:38] Yeah, and because Keith had Vanguard Week

[00:43:40] which I think everybody knows about.

[00:43:41] But Nancy Festival of Flowers, which is a whole weekend

[00:43:43] where people had to fly from wherever they lived

[00:43:45] to Albany and spend the weekend with her

[00:43:47] and everybody bought flowers.

[00:43:49] Her whole house was filled with flowers.

[00:43:52] And I have to say, I'm really proud

[00:43:53] that I never once bought her flowers.

[00:43:54] I was like, this is an excessive amount of flowers.

[00:43:56] Like I rarely buy flowers anyway

[00:43:58] just cause they die so quickly.

[00:44:00] And I think they're expensive.

[00:44:01] I love them and I love receiving them.

[00:44:03] But like when I had a baby

[00:44:04] and there was like four bouquets of flowers,

[00:44:05] like, oh my God, like it just felt wasteful.

[00:44:08] You know what I mean?

[00:44:09] It does, right?

[00:44:10] It's so wasteful.

[00:44:10] And I just was like, this is ridiculous.

[00:44:12] I bought her other things.

[00:44:12] I bought her like a fancy $500 leather purse once.

[00:44:15] Like, you know, people were always trying

[00:44:17] to get her something that she would have, yeah.

[00:44:20] When Keith or one of them were in a room

[00:44:23] or is there somebody who's sort of waiting on them

[00:44:25] and getting them coffee

[00:44:26] and were you allowed to approach them?

[00:44:28] I mean, just like the impression I get

[00:44:31] from watching like the vow.

[00:44:32] I mean, in the beginning,

[00:44:33] Keith looks like a down to earth kind of guy.

[00:44:35] Like it doesn't look like people are waiting on him

[00:44:37] or anything like that.

[00:44:38] But by the end, obviously you think he's like

[00:44:40] the devil incarnate.

[00:44:41] Oh yeah.

[00:44:42] No, he never drove.

[00:44:43] There was always somebody driving him

[00:44:44] and all his meals were prepared.

[00:44:46] His clothes were laid out and bought for him.

[00:44:48] Somebody did his-

[00:44:49] Well, he had his harem.

[00:44:49] Yeah, he had a harem.

[00:44:50] Yeah, right.

[00:44:51] He had people competing for his attention.

[00:44:53] But how about like when he walked in a room?

[00:44:55] Yeah, he would walk in a room

[00:44:56] and people would kind of like part for him to come through.

[00:44:58] Depending on what room it was,

[00:45:00] like if it was a forum,

[00:45:01] which sounds like what Sharon did,

[00:45:03] this is people asking questions

[00:45:04] and then people being talked at.

[00:45:06] If it was a forum,

[00:45:07] we knew that we were gonna sit down for a forum

[00:45:09] and Keith would come always late by the way.

[00:45:11] And I thought he was late,

[00:45:12] problem solving the world,

[00:45:13] but he was actually just finishing whatever threesome

[00:45:16] he was just wrapping up.

[00:45:17] So he'd be late and then people always stood.

[00:45:20] If it was a formal setting like a forum

[00:45:21] or an in Nancy's case, a coffee talk,

[00:45:24] you were always supposed to stand

[00:45:26] if anyone of higher rank came in.

[00:45:28] And even in my center,

[00:45:29] like if I came in a green sash

[00:45:31] and as I was only green sash in Vancouver,

[00:45:33] people were supposed to stand.

[00:45:34] I did not enforce that.

[00:45:35] I felt very uncomfortable with it.

[00:45:36] Cause you're not a narcissist.

[00:45:38] Oh yeah, I hope so.

[00:45:39] And someone on our Instagram said

[00:45:41] I was a wee bit of a narcissist the other day.

[00:45:43] So I was like.

[00:45:44] Oh well, just a wee bit is okay.

[00:45:46] Hey look.

[00:45:47] Maybe I'm a wee bit of a narcissist.

[00:45:49] I don't know, I'm not associated with having narcissist.

[00:45:51] Well, you're a little bit culty.

[00:45:53] A little bit culty, a little bit of a narcissist.

[00:45:54] I mean, I'm an actor.

[00:45:55] I think what actor is not a wee bit of a narcissist.

[00:45:58] But like there's as we now know,

[00:46:00] there's like 52 types of narcissism and

[00:46:02] Like there's 46.

[00:46:03] 46.

[00:46:04] Okay.

[00:46:05] And we're gonna have an expert.

[00:46:06] There are.

[00:46:07] Yeah.

[00:46:07] 46 distinctions or maybe it's 48 distinctions

[00:46:09] of the term narcissist.

[00:46:11] Well, I mean, think about it.

[00:46:12] If you're like, if you're,

[00:46:13] if you're growing up a kid

[00:46:15] and you're getting attention from everyone

[00:46:16] and then you have to divorce yourself

[00:46:18] from being the center of attention.

[00:46:19] Yeah.

[00:46:20] And most of us outgrow it at a certain point.

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:24] So there's that type of narcissism.

[00:46:26] And then there's like narcissism where like you can't,

[00:46:27] you don't have empathy and you don't care about other people.

[00:46:29] And like then you throw a sociopathy in there.

[00:46:31] I mean, listen, I'm not an expert in this,

[00:46:33] but I've learned a lot in doing these interviews

[00:46:36] and like post-cult recovery.

[00:46:38] People throw around the word narcissism

[00:46:39] or narcissists really way too easily

[00:46:41] without really understanding the distinctions.

[00:46:43] I don't understand the distinctions.

[00:46:44] I don't either.

[00:46:45] We're gonna actually do an episode.

[00:46:46] That's a good idea.

[00:46:47] I do on an abusive level,

[00:46:48] like, but like the lower level ones

[00:46:50] of like you could have narcissistic tendencies.

[00:46:52] I could be narcissistic.

[00:46:54] I don't require like everybody to stand up

[00:46:56] when I walk into a room or, you know,

[00:46:59] force it upon other people.

[00:47:01] I just may talk about myself the whole time and stuff.

[00:47:04] Yeah.

[00:47:04] It's a spectrum I guess.

[00:47:05] It's a spectrum.

[00:47:06] Yeah.

[00:47:07] And you know, I got in trouble a number of times

[00:47:08] for not upholding like those rules.

[00:47:10] Like I remember Nancy came to the center once

[00:47:12] and she pulled me aside and, you know,

[00:47:14] gave me feedback about how people weren't paying her

[00:47:18] and Keith proper tribute at the center.

[00:47:20] We got that all the time.

[00:47:22] At the very beginning, we were told

[00:47:25] we weren't being nice enough to Sharon.

[00:47:27] Like there'd be parties, right?

[00:47:28] And people wouldn't go over to her

[00:47:30] because they were afraid of her.

[00:47:31] But they were like, afterwards they were like,

[00:47:33] where is your respect for Sharon?

[00:47:36] They sounded like they were kind of nice about it.

[00:47:37] Next to him, for us, they were fucking insane.

[00:47:40] They never yelled.

[00:47:41] Anger in that way would have been

[00:47:43] as form of reactivity.

[00:47:45] It would have been something more soft and subtle

[00:47:48] under the guise of helping you like.

[00:47:49] So it was passive aggressive.

[00:47:50] Passive aggressive.

[00:47:51] They pulled me aside and then say,

[00:47:52] what does it mean that you're unwilling

[00:47:56] to make Nancy your priority when she's in town?

[00:47:59] What does that mean about you?

[00:48:00] You know.

[00:48:01] And you'd have to say.

[00:48:02] I have tribute issues.

[00:48:03] I have authority issues.

[00:48:05] There's something that I'm seeing in Nancy

[00:48:06] that's actually within myself

[00:48:07] that I have been uncomfortable with

[00:48:09] and I have that thing in the box they'd call it.

[00:48:11] Like when you're projecting on to somebody.

[00:48:13] Like a lot of people would hear and meet Nancy

[00:48:15] and be super uncomfortable because she was so expressive.

[00:48:17] She was like, la la la la.

[00:48:20] And if people said anything.

[00:48:20] Yeah, she's nuts.

[00:48:21] No, she's nuts.

[00:48:22] And if anyone said anything, they'd say,

[00:48:23] well that's because you suppress yourself.

[00:48:25] That's your problem.

[00:48:26] You suppress yourself and Nancy's so expressive

[00:48:29] it brings up people's discomfort

[00:48:30] about how their own inability to be.

[00:48:32] She's inauthentic.

[00:48:33] Yeah, she's authentic and you're inauthentic

[00:48:36] and because she's so authentic it like triggering for you.

[00:48:39] Like it was always kind of.

[00:48:41] Exactly.

[00:48:42] It's the same thing.

[00:48:42] I gotta tell you we could have had

[00:48:44] like a cult exchange program

[00:48:45] like Nippy could have come over to my cult

[00:48:48] and I could have gone over to Nexium

[00:48:50] and we'd have been fine.

[00:48:51] We would have had a cult off.

[00:48:52] And you would have been fine.

[00:48:54] The other parallel that I thought was so funny

[00:48:55] the way that you described the parties

[00:48:57] and like the committees that would form

[00:48:59] to organize the food and the decorations.

[00:49:00] Like this was a thing for the festival of flowers

[00:49:04] for the big dinner.

[00:49:04] And we do like this thing called the follies

[00:49:06] where people would put on like skits

[00:49:07] and shows for Nancy.

[00:49:09] And she'd like come in and sit at the front

[00:49:11] and kind of watch.

[00:49:12] And there'd be like lanterns and candles

[00:49:15] and the expense of like plastic silverware

[00:49:18] that was silver like plastic silverware.

[00:49:20] So it looked pretty still like

[00:49:22] because you can't have that much cutlery

[00:49:23] for a hundred people, right?

[00:49:25] I was like, oh my God,

[00:49:26] I'm from Vancouver where we recycle

[00:49:27] like the tiniest bit of paper.

[00:49:29] And I'm like, oh, this is so, so much excessive stuff.

[00:49:33] But the point being is that the lavishness

[00:49:36] to all of these parties and it was always an honor

[00:49:38] like nobody got paid for this.

[00:49:39] There was always what they called like work exchange

[00:49:41] and I was shocked by how much free labor Sharon

[00:49:44] and the leadership got from people

[00:49:46] who were brought in to like basically

[00:49:48] build her multiple homes.

[00:49:49] She had home as all over,

[00:49:51] where was it in upstate New York,

[00:49:53] Montana, the Hamptons, Mexico.

[00:49:56] The Plaza Hotel.

[00:49:57] Oh, and she lived in the Plaza Hotel

[00:49:58] which Nipia to tell me was very fancy

[00:50:00] because I didn't really know.

[00:50:01] Yeah, she had an eight and a half million dollar apartment

[00:50:04] that was purchased by other people.

[00:50:06] And all the participants paid

[00:50:07] most of them paid in cash and she was,

[00:50:09] I mean talk about tax evasion.

[00:50:12] Oh yeah, major tax evasion

[00:50:13] which I get into in the book.

[00:50:14] But basically half of the money that she got

[00:50:17] in later years was checks and the other half was cash.

[00:50:21] They had two sets of books.

[00:50:22] Sharon, if I could just say this one thing,

[00:50:24] I mean she was not nearly as,

[00:50:26] although I wasn't there in the early days,

[00:50:28] I think there was much more sexual abuse

[00:50:31] in the early days

[00:50:31] and it was nowhere near on the scale

[00:50:33] of what your people suffered

[00:50:36] and the victims of Keith Riniere.

[00:50:38] But Sharon was diabolical

[00:50:41] and no problem breaking the law.

[00:50:42] It just didn't mean anything to her.

[00:50:44] No.

[00:50:45] When she told people, women in class,

[00:50:48] she would say, and this is my book

[00:50:50] if I could just give this one piece

[00:50:52] which is always so outrageous and sad to me,

[00:50:56] I'm ashamed because I'd just watch it.

[00:50:58] I didn't say anything.

[00:51:00] But she would say to women,

[00:51:02] oh you need to get laid.

[00:51:03] Now she spoke like a sailor

[00:51:04] which is also I don't think Keith did publicly but.

[00:51:07] He did, no he did.

[00:51:08] Oh he did.

[00:51:09] Not publicly, he held that off for a while.

[00:51:11] He waited to some of the trainings.

[00:51:12] But it wasn't till the later years

[00:51:14] in SOP trainings you talk about like,

[00:51:16] I saw that. Men just wanna fuck.

[00:51:18] I have a theory on that too.

[00:51:19] Which is?

[00:51:20] Well the inappropriate behavior

[00:51:22] is kind of boundary pushing, right?

[00:51:24] Okay.

[00:51:24] So they're expanding the boundaries

[00:51:26] of what's mostly uncomfortable for most people

[00:51:29] to make you neutral to things that normally

[00:51:31] are like hey I'm not talking about that

[00:51:33] in the name of growth.

[00:51:34] Right.

[00:51:35] So your boundaries are being violated

[00:51:37] under the guys that these are important conversations,

[00:51:40] these are things that we should have

[00:51:41] and sometimes that are.

[00:51:42] I think a lot of people

[00:51:43] when they hear about this stuff

[00:51:44] they're like but how could you have stayed

[00:51:46] and they don't understand the level

[00:51:48] of deep dependency of how the group is set up

[00:51:51] so that like your wife isn't

[00:51:52] and you're a lawyer

[00:51:53] and your top business client is there

[00:51:55] and like all of your source of income

[00:51:57] and it's a really hard thing to pull yourself out of

[00:51:59] so that when you see something that's not right

[00:52:01] you just learn to dismiss it.

[00:52:03] You're not even having rational thought.

[00:52:05] So you marry Beth and she's 42

[00:52:06] and she already has two teenage daughters

[00:52:08] and then all of a sudden Sharon calls you

[00:52:09] and says, you know I don't think

[00:52:10] you wanted to have your own child.

[00:52:12] Don't think that the best should get pregnant

[00:52:13] because she's older

[00:52:14] and like the baby might be unhealthy.

[00:52:15] I think that you should impregnate her teenage daughter

[00:52:18] which would have been incest with your stepdaughter.

[00:52:20] And obviously like that is heinous

[00:52:22] and you said no thank goodness

[00:52:23] and you were of right mind enough to say no

[00:52:26] but like you couldn't wrap your head around

[00:52:28] that this was like a reason to leave

[00:52:30] because it's all under the premise of

[00:52:33] again, she knows better,

[00:52:35] she's making a suggestion.

[00:52:36] Thank God you were able to draw the boundary

[00:52:38] and she learned that she couldn't do that with you

[00:52:40] and never brought it up again.

[00:52:41] But like somebody who's not in a cult might go

[00:52:43] but like that's so gross,

[00:52:44] why wouldn't you just leave then?

[00:52:46] And I think that you said it a number of times

[00:52:48] things like this and I totally relate

[00:52:50] is that there's this internal challenge you wrote

[00:52:52] I resented the pressure to do something

[00:52:54] I didn't want to do

[00:52:55] but I also felt guilty for wanting to resist.

[00:52:58] And I think that's how guilt is used to keep you in line

[00:53:02] because you've already bought into this premise

[00:53:03] because of the hierarchy

[00:53:05] that you don't know your own self.

[00:53:06] So if you have that doubt,

[00:53:08] you feel guilty that you're not like being obedient

[00:53:10] essentially at all times.

[00:53:12] Correct, correct.

[00:53:14] That's exactly right.

[00:53:15] So I guess my point is

[00:53:15] if you haven't gone through that

[00:53:17] you just don't know.

[00:53:18] You don't know what that's like.

[00:53:19] You can add a caveat Sarah.

[00:53:21] You don't have to know for yourself experience

[00:53:24] to know that it goes on

[00:53:25] and you want any more evidence than that

[00:53:27] you can look at the history books.

[00:53:28] People run into gunfire

[00:53:29] for the craziest reasons ever.

[00:53:31] One of the thought experiments I read in a article one time

[00:53:34] you could have been in pre-Nazi Germany

[00:53:36] with a 15 year old kid who in four or five years

[00:53:39] was putting another human being into an oven.

[00:53:41] How do you get to that point?

[00:53:42] Right, wow.

[00:53:43] How do you get to the point

[00:53:43] where you're obediently doing stuff like that?

[00:53:45] So if people want to interflex the front

[00:53:48] that they're not susceptible to it

[00:53:49] well maybe you're not and that's great

[00:53:51] but there's a lot of people in human history

[00:53:53] who have found themselves in situations

[00:53:56] far more egregious than we have who've been complicit.

[00:53:58] So understanding the mechanisms of that is important.

[00:54:01] Right, I mean we were victims in very extreme situations

[00:54:05] and that's one thing but Nippy's right.

[00:54:07] Amanda Montel's book which is so popular and wonderful

[00:54:10] because everybody can relate to those sort of cultish

[00:54:13] institutions that are going on.

[00:54:15] And she's great at just making it seamless

[00:54:17] and here's how they slip it in.

[00:54:19] Here's how it slipped into your day-to-day lives.

[00:54:21] Right, you know I don't think a soul cycle

[00:54:23] is malignant it's a money making operation

[00:54:25] and I actually don't know

[00:54:27] I guess it does have victims as well

[00:54:29] but it's not the same spectrum on the spectrum

[00:54:32] it's not mixing.

[00:54:33] No, there's more choice too.

[00:54:34] If you look at Stephen Hassan's continuum

[00:54:36] and the bite model. Exactly.

[00:54:38] There's extreme and not extreme

[00:54:40] and maybe you know less destructive

[00:54:43] and that's something we refer to all the time

[00:54:46] and it's super beneficial because people might look

[00:54:48] at something and not know what they're looking at

[00:54:51] but now because of all these books we have the tools.

[00:54:54] We do. Which is great.

[00:54:55] We do and I want to say to people

[00:54:57] who are out there listening

[00:54:59] you know to your listeners that there's no judgment

[00:55:02] and that's why I think it's so great that you speak out

[00:55:04] and that's one of the reasons I wanted to speak out

[00:55:05] is so that other people who are in this situation

[00:55:07] don't feel judgment about having been conned and duped.

[00:55:12] Hey a little bit culty listeners

[00:55:14] bless your little bitty hearts

[00:55:16] for helping support this podcast.

[00:55:18] You asked us to put a link up

[00:55:20] where you could make a one time

[00:55:21] or monthly contributions to help us cover the costs

[00:55:24] of taking this podcast from our living room

[00:55:26] to your earbuds and so we did and wow

[00:55:29] you weren't kidding around when you said

[00:55:30] you wanted to help this podcast

[00:55:32] keep on cranking out episodes.

[00:55:34] You stepped up. Thank you.

[00:55:36] In fact, in a relatively short time

[00:55:38] 70 of you have already chipped in

[00:55:40] and together the whole beautiful lot of you

[00:55:42] have covered the cost of making

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[00:55:46] That's pretty freaking good.

[00:55:48] You are amazing.

[00:55:49] Did you know that?

[00:55:50] And yes we're talking to you

[00:55:52] Veronica Wells, Annie Blake, Thomas Wicks

[00:55:55] and John Breen and you Kenny Bernstein

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[00:56:02] and you are rad.

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[00:56:10] That's just a few of you who are helping

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[00:56:21] a little bit culty tracking along.

[00:56:23] Thanks again.

[00:56:24] We adore you.

[00:56:33] Meals bring people together,

[00:56:35] but for many families providing their next meal

[00:56:38] can be a challenge.

[00:56:40] You can help by participating in Macy's

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[00:57:04] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[00:57:06] What are your self-care non-negotiables?

[00:57:09] Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga.

[00:57:12] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep.

[00:57:13] I mean, that's my personal

[00:57:15] and everyone's dream, isn't it?

[00:57:17] Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables.

[00:57:19] Like I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:57:20] and I'm spending literally as much time

[00:57:22] as I can outside of nature.

[00:57:24] Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it.

[00:57:26] Nature is a non-negotiable.

[00:57:28] Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me

[00:57:29] and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded.

[00:57:33] Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks.

[00:57:35] I try to not miss it

[00:57:36] and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better

[00:57:38] all around if I make it a priority.

[00:57:40] I get so much out of it.

[00:57:41] It helps me put my worries and anxieties

[00:57:43] in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind

[00:57:45] so I can focus on what I really need

[00:57:47] and sometimes what I don't need.

[00:57:48] Like I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:57:50] just because I hate to say no to people.

[00:57:51] You know what I mean?

[00:57:52] Thanks therapy.

[00:57:53] Thanks for helping me see that.

[00:57:55] And if you're thinking of starting therapy,

[00:57:56] give BetterHelp a try.

[00:57:58] It's entirely online, designed to be convenient,

[00:58:00] flexible and suited to your schedule.

[00:58:02] Just fill out a brief questionnaire

[00:58:03] and get matched with a licensed therapist

[00:58:05] and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge.

[00:58:08] Look, even when we know what makes us happy,

[00:58:10] it's hard to make time for it.

[00:58:12] But when you feel like you have no time for yourself,

[00:58:14] non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever.

[00:58:17] Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp.

[00:58:19] Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today

[00:58:21] to get 10% off your first month.

[00:58:23] That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com slash culty.

[00:58:29] I'm just gonna skim over

[00:58:30] some of the other red flags I saw.

[00:58:33] One was like the hypocrisy of the anti-materialism bullshit.

[00:58:37] Like you can't be materialistic

[00:58:40] and like ribbing on people for being superficial or whatever

[00:58:42] and then Sharon is the most materialistic, opulent.

[00:58:46] Drinks, right?

[00:58:47] And drinks.

[00:58:48] She said she drinks.

[00:58:49] Yeah, she was very unhealthy.

[00:58:50] She looked at.

[00:58:50] That was actually something that some,

[00:58:52] I think it was Marc Vicente told me

[00:58:53] when I laughed or Bonnie.

[00:58:55] Look at what they do, not what they say.

[00:58:57] So if they're saying one thing and doing another,

[00:58:59] that's a major red flag.

[00:59:01] In life, not just.

[00:59:02] Yeah, totally.

[00:59:03] And the pitting couples against each other,

[00:59:05] we talked about that.

[00:59:06] Reading that, it was obvious to me

[00:59:08] she didn't like seeing couples happy.

[00:59:10] She did not.

[00:59:11] She liked to make couples,

[00:59:12] but she'd like to control them.

[00:59:14] And being unhappy and was part of it

[00:59:17] because only she could make it happy.

[00:59:19] Right, right, right.

[00:59:19] You know, I was in a relationship that,

[00:59:21] although there was a lot of foundational problems,

[00:59:25] I mean, there were a lot of problems in it,

[00:59:26] but we did respect and like each other,

[00:59:29] but we weren't right for each other

[00:59:31] and happened very quickly.

[00:59:32] She's an excellent person who I care for very much,

[00:59:36] but we shouldn't have been married.

[00:59:37] And she also tried to put gay men

[00:59:39] with straight women to convert them.

[00:59:41] Is that right?

[00:59:42] Yeah, that's not a very good thing.

[00:59:43] No.

[00:59:44] She did that to her daughter.

[00:59:45] There were three straws for you that stuck out.

[00:59:48] Any of them in particular that you'd wanna share

[00:59:50] in terms of how you woke up?

[00:59:51] So the first one was as much as we tried,

[00:59:54] the marriage wasn't working

[00:59:55] and we decided to get divorced.

[00:59:58] The day after my ex-wife and I talked about it,

[01:00:01] I got a phone call from Sharon out of nowhere.

[01:00:05] And she knew all about this.

[01:00:07] I'm like, what?

[01:00:09] And she wanted to talk about us resolving our divorce

[01:00:13] and wanted us to come up to the plaza

[01:00:16] and work out a settlement agreement

[01:00:18] where all these terms would be hashed out.

[01:00:21] And that's when I kind of was like, wait a second,

[01:00:24] this doesn't sound right.

[01:00:25] I mean, it didn't sound right to me

[01:00:26] when she suggested incest, okay?

[01:00:28] But I was too like in a coma.

[01:00:31] Yeah.

[01:00:32] You were in a hypnotic trance from what I can see.

[01:00:34] I mean, I didn't do it obviously

[01:00:36] and it wasn't something I was even thinking about.

[01:00:39] And I pushed back

[01:00:40] and I am sure she recommended that

[01:00:43] and things like that to other people

[01:00:44] because she did have other people get into

[01:00:46] which I describe in my book

[01:00:48] into impossibly ridiculous situations

[01:00:52] that were immoral, illegal.

[01:00:55] But that first straw was when she insinuated herself

[01:00:57] into my divorce and wanted to set up a custody situation

[01:01:01] that would have been basically taking my son away from me.

[01:01:04] So that was straw number one.

[01:01:07] The other straw had to do with my business

[01:01:09] but the third straw was now that I was kind of

[01:01:12] awakening, waking up.

[01:01:14] And by the way, what the cult taught us

[01:01:16] was that we needed to wake up.

[01:01:18] That's why it's so funny

[01:01:20] because we were actually going to dead sleep.

[01:01:23] But when I really saw what the hell was going on there

[01:01:26] I just saw Sharon treat someone like she normally did

[01:01:30] but like the anesthetic was worn off

[01:01:33] and I could just see how cruel, how mean she was.

[01:01:38] I had also met someone.

[01:01:39] I met a woman who I revealed my secret to.

[01:01:42] I had never told anyone for 23 years

[01:01:44] that I was in this group

[01:01:45] and somehow when I told her about it

[01:01:48] everything changed, you know?

[01:01:50] Broke the spell.

[01:01:51] Yeah, broke the spell.

[01:01:52] But that's true that you said

[01:01:53] never thought and thought about it

[01:01:54] that in many ways your dependency is a collateral

[01:01:57] because it's what's on the table.

[01:01:58] Like if I leave my photos could be exposed.

[01:02:01] If you leave you're gonna lose your business.

[01:02:03] So it's leveraged.

[01:02:04] And not only that, I had this emotional belief

[01:02:07] that they did this to you guys.

[01:02:09] My success, all the good things in my life

[01:02:12] were a result of what I got in school.

[01:02:14] I called my cult was called school.

[01:02:16] Everything that was fucked up in my life was my problem.

[01:02:19] It's because of you, yeah.

[01:02:20] Right, and so without them I wouldn't have good things

[01:02:24] and I'd be fucking my life up.

[01:02:26] Which by the way it's the exact opposite.

[01:02:30] And it's very hard to see that.

[01:02:31] Well, which leads us really well Sarah if you don't mind.

[01:02:35] Do the garfungle?

[01:02:35] Garfungle?

[01:02:36] Garfungle paradox.

[01:02:38] Yes.

[01:02:39] I read that and you put language to things

[01:02:40] in a different way that I had

[01:02:41] and yet do you mind explaining that?

[01:02:43] Please, yeah sure.

[01:02:44] So the garfungle paradox is the belief

[01:02:48] that your best days are behind you

[01:02:50] when in fact your best days are ahead of you.

[01:02:53] And when I got out of this cult,

[01:02:56] I mean the cult made you feel that if you were leaving

[01:02:59] you were almost like committing suicide.

[01:03:01] And they made you feel that those who left

[01:03:04] were killing themselves, killing their possibilities.

[01:03:07] In fact, I used to have dreams about people.

[01:03:08] I had some of my best friends in the world in the cult

[01:03:11] and they left and I couldn't communicate with them.

[01:03:14] They were cut off, they were outcast,

[01:03:16] they were in the wilderness

[01:03:17] and I'd have dreams of them being dead.

[01:03:19] Red flag.

[01:03:20] Red flags all over the places.

[01:03:21] We haven't even talked about all these red flags, have we?

[01:03:23] But in any event, the paradox is exactly

[01:03:26] that what the cult teaches you is wrong.

[01:03:29] It's the exact opposite, that's what a paradox is.

[01:03:32] And so why do we get the name garfungle?

[01:03:33] Well it comes from Simon and Garfungle.

[01:03:36] In the therapy sessions with my psychiatrist

[01:03:39] I would lament my business career was over

[01:03:43] because I was in a relationship with my business partner

[01:03:47] who stayed in the cult and we broke up

[01:03:50] that I was kind of like Garfungle.

[01:03:52] That he was like Simon, Paul Simon,

[01:03:54] I was like our Garfungle.

[01:03:55] And when they broke up, Paul Simon, he could go on.

[01:03:59] He had all these hit albums and whatever

[01:04:01] and then Garfungle you didn't really hear about it anymore.

[01:04:04] You know, he didn't have any hit albums.

[01:04:07] I mean, he didn't play guitar.

[01:04:09] He didn't have anything, you know?

[01:04:10] And he was only lucky to be in Simon and Garfungle.

[01:04:14] I mean, he was really just the second on the other singer.

[01:04:17] So my psychiatrist saw what was going on

[01:04:19] and he let me come to it on my own without telling me

[01:04:23] and by asking a lot of questions,

[01:04:24] which I describe in the book, but that's not true.

[01:04:27] I mean, Garfungle was and is beautiful singer

[01:04:30] who in fact Paul Simon looked up to

[01:04:33] as the superior singer.

[01:04:36] He sang the most beloved song, Bridge Over Trouble Water.

[01:04:39] It was written for Artie Garfungle to sing.

[01:04:42] So it's a paradox.

[01:04:43] They both went on to wonderful careers afterwards

[01:04:47] and it was just different, you know?

[01:04:49] He basically turned around my psychiatrist

[01:04:51] turned around my thinking.

[01:04:53] So that's the Garfungle.

[01:04:55] That was great.

[01:04:56] I really liked that part.

[01:04:57] Good, good.

[01:04:57] I really did.

[01:04:59] I go into my therapy because he really helped me a lot

[01:05:03] and I don't know if I would have made it

[01:05:05] without that kind of help because of suicidal ideations

[01:05:09] that I had, which I needed to address.

[01:05:11] And if anybody has them, they need to address that.

[01:05:14] Important.

[01:05:15] Because it's a permanent solution

[01:05:16] to a temporary problem.

[01:05:17] Right.

[01:05:18] Well, you and I had talked about this

[01:05:19] when we were chatting on the phone

[01:05:20] that I'd heard you in another interview saying

[01:05:22] that you didn't think that cult survivors

[01:05:25] needed a cult therapist to which I said,

[01:05:27] we'll discuss in the pod.

[01:05:29] It's a discussion that at a point where like,

[01:05:31] I disagree just from my own experience,

[01:05:34] but then I hadn't got to that point in your book.

[01:05:36] And I actually, I think that the person

[01:05:38] who you worked with did a great job

[01:05:40] specifically that they had trauma experience

[01:05:44] or experience of abuse.

[01:05:46] And really that's the key thing.

[01:05:48] Having someone who's cult aware,

[01:05:50] cult educated, it's a whole other level.

[01:05:52] And I just shared that like, you know,

[01:05:53] for me talking to people like Roseanne Henry

[01:05:56] who we're gonna have on our show

[01:05:57] and Dan Shaw who we already did have on our show

[01:05:59] who are cult experts who'd been in cults

[01:06:01] really, really helped me, right?

[01:06:03] But I also had a psychologist I'd mentioned

[01:06:06] in my book and the acknowledgement,

[01:06:07] it's Dr. Noah Sussween who was not cult aware at all,

[01:06:11] but was a great psychologist.

[01:06:13] And even from that perspective,

[01:06:14] asked me great questions

[01:06:16] because he really didn't understand.

[01:06:18] He's like, but wait, so like as an example,

[01:06:21] like, so you're taught that you only need food

[01:06:25] and shelter and water to survive

[01:06:28] and everything else is a desire,

[01:06:30] but what about things to like thrive,

[01:06:33] like connection and community?

[01:06:34] I'm like, oh my God, that's it.

[01:06:36] That's why the women were miserable in Albany

[01:06:38] because they weren't thriving

[01:06:39] because they were taught that anything

[01:06:41] other than like survival needs was unnecessary.

[01:06:44] And they felt guilty for wanting a career

[01:06:45] or wanting a relationship or wanting to have a connection

[01:06:48] because it meant that they were deficient

[01:06:49] and then they had to go spend a million dollars on EMs.

[01:06:52] So my point is just to backtrack like,

[01:06:54] my experience was that I needed a cult therapist

[01:06:57] and a regular psychologist and a couples counselor,

[01:07:01] which Nibb and I have now and we love,

[01:07:02] who doesn't have any cult background either.

[01:07:04] I think the most important thing is that you feel safe

[01:07:07] and you feel not judged

[01:07:09] and that you find somebody who will help you

[01:07:11] with whatever you need to be helped with

[01:07:12] that it's gonna be like Nibb always says,

[01:07:14] it's case by case.

[01:07:15] The main thing I think that's problematic

[01:07:17] when people go to a therapist

[01:07:18] after they've done something like,

[01:07:20] your work and our work doing the work

[01:07:23] is a personal development.

[01:07:25] So it overlaps with a lot of therapeutic language, right?

[01:07:29] So when you sit down in front of a psychologist

[01:07:32] who doesn't know next year or doesn't know,

[01:07:34] how do you say Gord Jeff?

[01:07:36] Gord Jeff.

[01:07:36] Gord Jeff or doesn't have that background.

[01:07:39] They may say something like,

[01:07:41] but what do you mean love?

[01:07:43] And I'd be like, ah,

[01:07:44] you can't ask me a meeting question.

[01:07:46] Fuck.

[01:07:47] That's the same thing.

[01:07:48] I was like, don't say that.

[01:07:50] That's like, and he would have to like jump around.

[01:07:53] But that's so true.

[01:07:55] So that's a real problem.

[01:07:56] People who come out of a personal development,

[01:07:58] therapy based spiritual or whatever call

[01:08:01] and they go to a psychologist

[01:08:02] and they may ask those similar questions

[01:08:04] because again, so much of our work

[01:08:06] was stolen from legitimate work

[01:08:07] and legitimate modalities.

[01:08:09] So it can be triggering.

[01:08:10] So I think those are the things

[01:08:11] that I'd want our listeners to know.

[01:08:12] Also, I think if the therapist

[01:08:14] can recognize they're looking at abuse,

[01:08:16] the sooner they recognize they're recognizing

[01:08:18] an abuse in any way,

[01:08:20] the sooner they're gonna help you.

[01:08:21] Correct.

[01:08:22] That's where I think it's applicable.

[01:08:23] It's exactly right.

[01:08:24] They'll figure out, like they'll ask you questions

[01:08:26] and they'll figure out, oh, this guy was abused.

[01:08:27] Now they have something to work with.

[01:08:29] So if they're not a cult expert,

[01:08:30] they're trained to do that and hear the abuse

[01:08:32] and that's where they can reintegrate your thought, I think.

[01:08:34] If you're listening to this

[01:08:35] and you're in a small town

[01:08:36] and you really like your psychologist

[01:08:37] or therapist or counselor or whatever

[01:08:39] and they're willing to educate themselves,

[01:08:40] give them take back your life by Yanya Lalich,

[01:08:43] combating cult mind control by Stephen Hassan.

[01:08:46] By Stephen Hassan.

[01:08:47] And Tara Love and Brainwashing from Alexander Stein

[01:08:50] and maybe one of Dan Shaw's books about narcissism

[01:08:53] and I think you're gonna be fine.

[01:08:54] Like those books will bring people up to speed,

[01:08:56] not saying don't get certified,

[01:08:58] but a lot of people are going into different educational

[01:09:01] programs about course of control

[01:09:03] and like psychotherapy with a background

[01:09:05] on cult education.

[01:09:06] Like this is changing right now.

[01:09:08] We have a therapist

[01:09:09] and this is one of the things that she was saying.

[01:09:10] She's like, you look at these dark people,

[01:09:12] these narcissistic, these people,

[01:09:14] they had a certain way of getting

[01:09:16] into people's psychologies years ago

[01:09:19] that have been kind of outed in a lot of degrees.

[01:09:21] So what she said she was seeing a lot of

[01:09:24] is a lot of them seeping into the spiritual world

[01:09:27] or the personal professional development world

[01:09:29] as a means to implement their abuses.

[01:09:31] So they've now poisoned a kind of domain

[01:09:34] where the checks and balances aren't what they were

[01:09:36] and they get away with nebulous language

[01:09:38] not defining their terms and everything

[01:09:40] and they seep into these things

[01:09:42] that are supposed to be beacons of good

[01:09:45] and everything and then that's how they twist it.

[01:09:46] She said she was seeing a lot of that particular

[01:09:48] because it's getting harder to do

[01:09:49] and now you have the internet, right?

[01:09:50] So now they're gonna have to adapt, right?

[01:09:53] Like these people are the kind of people

[01:09:55] that sit around and think of ways to do this.

[01:09:57] So now that they're getting this pushback

[01:09:59] and people are talking about it more,

[01:10:01] you're starting to see people in positions

[01:10:02] of power being outed with these behaviors.

[01:10:05] The consciousness level ideally is gonna

[01:10:07] probably get worse before it gets better

[01:10:09] but it's probably hopefully gonna get

[01:10:10] to a certain point where we can see it

[01:10:12] so they don't thrive and then they'll adapt to that

[01:10:14] and however that works.

[01:10:15] Exactly, it's just like you build a better lock

[01:10:18] and somebody else knows how to pick it.

[01:10:21] You could have said that and I wouldn't have.

[01:10:25] No, no, I like how you said it.

[01:10:26] I'm just repeating what you said.

[01:10:27] I mean, I like how you said it.

[01:10:29] It's good to speak to someone who is qualified

[01:10:36] to talk to people in bad situations

[01:10:38] and there's a range.

[01:10:39] I mean, I don't think I would have gotten out

[01:10:41] if it weren't for having read Rick Ross.

[01:10:45] I was in a situation where I needed real medical help

[01:10:48] also but I think reading about cults is damn good

[01:10:52] because it'll, like you said you had like an aha moment

[01:10:55] when somebody gave you one of these things.

[01:10:56] I'm sure you did too Nippy.

[01:10:58] You just say, oh wait, that was Sharon.

[01:11:03] It all comes together.

[01:11:04] I mean, I'm for the education.

[01:11:07] I don't think Sasan or somebody said

[01:11:09] it should be taught in schools

[01:11:10] or did you, somebody I was reading.

[01:11:12] Nippy's been saying that for a while.

[01:11:14] I'm with you on that.

[01:11:15] I think cult education, hopefully

[01:11:18] when the feedback we're getting seems to verify this

[01:11:20] but like through the podcast and all of these books.

[01:11:23] I mean, I'm five years out feeling pretty great

[01:11:25] and then I read your book

[01:11:26] and I'm again having more awarenesses

[01:11:30] and memories too.

[01:11:31] Cause like, when you're in that trance

[01:11:33] whatever you wanna call it state

[01:11:35] where you're just shutting out reality

[01:11:37] to make it work, right?

[01:11:39] To get the dollar back, to get your investment back.

[01:11:41] You miss stuff.

[01:11:42] You're using a different part of your brain.

[01:11:43] Like you said something about like how you woke up

[01:11:46] and I remember something I shared with Nippy last night

[01:11:49] when we were waking up, like it happened in stages, right?

[01:11:51] Like we were gonna get out

[01:11:52] and then we're like, we can't just leave.

[01:11:54] Like we have to tell people.

[01:11:56] And then it was like, we can't just tell people

[01:11:58] we have to dismantle this, you know?

[01:12:00] And somewhere in there

[01:12:01] I reached out to Nancy to talk to her, right?

[01:12:04] And I left her a message where I was like, okay

[01:12:06] so I have Keith's initials on my body

[01:12:09] and your daughter did that to me

[01:12:13] and we need to have a discussion.

[01:12:15] And I was upset when I left her a voicemail

[01:12:17] and she never called me.

[01:12:18] And I found out later that she didn't call me

[01:12:21] and she played it for a number of people

[01:12:22] and said, why would she call me?

[01:12:24] Cause since I was so angry.

[01:12:26] So she didn't call me because I was so angry.

[01:12:28] I don't think I've ever said this publicly

[01:12:29] like kind of forgot about it

[01:12:30] but I was the golden child, right?

[01:12:33] Like I called her my bonus mom.

[01:12:34] She called me a bonus daughter.

[01:12:36] Michelle and Lauren were like sisters, you know

[01:12:38] in that way in terms of like

[01:12:40] I was elevated at an elevated position

[01:12:42] at certain points as one of the top recruiters

[01:12:44] not the whole time I was there.

[01:12:45] One of the most successful centers,

[01:12:47] I'm not trying to pump my tire,

[01:12:48] I'm trying to say like I was an asset

[01:12:50] to the community and to her company.

[01:12:52] What would have been a good business call

[01:12:54] at the very least. It would have been a good business call

[01:12:55] for her to care about her.

[01:12:57] Yeah, to at least call me

[01:12:59] and try to figure out what had happened.

[01:13:02] Like why she wouldn't say, oh my goodness you're hurt.

[01:13:05] Clearly there's been a miscommunication

[01:13:07] cause I actually don't think that Nancy.

[01:13:08] She's been desensitized.

[01:13:10] Well, she's been desensitized

[01:13:11] and she'd been you know, whatever too.

[01:13:13] But the point is that like I think

[01:13:15] it's good that she didn't call me back

[01:13:16] because has she called me?

[01:13:18] She may have been able to try to work it out

[01:13:21] and like it may have stayed internal.

[01:13:23] My point being is who knows

[01:13:25] she may have been able to keep a lid on it

[01:13:27] to the point we didn't go to the press

[01:13:28] or didn't go to the New York Times or you know, whatever.

[01:13:31] So it's actually good that she didn't call me

[01:13:32] but like, you know bad business move on her part

[01:13:35] pick up the phone.

[01:13:36] Could she have talked to you out of it

[01:13:37] if she called you back?

[01:13:38] That's the thing I don't know.

[01:13:39] Here's what I think.

[01:13:40] She didn't even know it existed.

[01:13:42] So I don't even think she

[01:13:43] She didn't know what she was looking at

[01:13:44] but what she was trying to talk her out of.

[01:13:46] Either way, she should have called to check up on me

[01:13:49] is my point like given our relationship

[01:13:52] and everything I've done for the company

[01:13:55] it's just absurd that like, look at that.

[01:13:57] That's a huge red flag.

[01:13:58] A normal person would pick up the phone

[01:14:00] and be like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what happened?

[01:14:02] You know?

[01:14:03] I see, I see what you're saying.

[01:14:05] I completely get, all right.

[01:14:06] So let me, I had a similar experience.

[01:14:09] I was in trouble.

[01:14:11] They were fucking with me.

[01:14:12] I was having big problems in my business, big problems.

[01:14:16] And I reached out to Sharon and I said,

[01:14:19] I'm having some problems here.

[01:14:20] And she said, I don't give a fuck.

[01:14:21] And she said, I don't give a fuck.

[01:14:23] Yeah.

[01:14:24] And that's the same thing as you had.

[01:14:26] It's kind of the same thing.

[01:14:27] That's what reminded me.

[01:14:27] That's what I'm telling you

[01:14:28] is that story in your book reminded me.

[01:14:29] It's unbelievable.

[01:14:31] What's the story?

[01:14:32] It's so similar.

[01:14:33] It's so similar.

[01:14:34] It's a gift like to write a book like this

[01:14:36] to put yourself out there to be out for public scrutiny

[01:14:38] is a gift for you to do it.

[01:14:40] And yeah, by the way, very brave.

[01:14:41] Very brave.

[01:14:42] Thank you.

[01:14:43] And it makes me feel given that we both come

[01:14:45] from this similar background

[01:14:47] that we should be true essence friends now.

[01:14:50] Ha ha ha.

[01:14:52] Actual essence friends.

[01:14:53] I know.

[01:14:54] But since you're joking.

[01:14:55] I know, sorry.

[01:14:56] You are my essence friend and maybe you too.

[01:14:59] Thank you.

[01:15:00] I don't know what that means entirely

[01:15:01] but I'm sure you'll find out.

[01:15:03] It was just a word that was used

[01:15:05] in both of our groups, you know?

[01:15:07] You know, look, here's the thing.

[01:15:08] My psychiatrist said this when I would jump at certain words.

[01:15:11] He'd say something and I'd say,

[01:15:12] oh no, we can't use that word.

[01:15:14] It was a cult word.

[01:15:15] Yeah.

[01:15:15] And then finally he said to me,

[01:15:16] he said, you know, think about this.

[01:15:18] I'm not saying we should think about it.

[01:15:20] You know, he's a nice Jewish guy

[01:15:22] and understands neurotic people like me.

[01:15:24] So he would say something like,

[01:15:26] you say, think about this, you know?

[01:15:28] There is such a thing as co-opting a word.

[01:15:31] Like for instance, the LGBTQ community,

[01:15:35] they use the word queer

[01:15:36] and that used to be an insult

[01:15:38] to gay people to be called queer.

[01:15:40] Now they've adopted it.

[01:15:41] If you remember Obamacare,

[01:15:43] they used to say that as a slur to Obama

[01:15:45] then he started using it.

[01:15:47] It was like, God, you know, it had no more power.

[01:15:49] So I'm happy to be your essence friend.

[01:15:52] Okay, good.

[01:15:53] We can co-op that word, we'll take it right back.

[01:15:55] I have one final question, writing the book.

[01:15:57] Thank you, end one chapter.

[01:15:58] It was about you wanting justice.

[01:16:00] Right.

[01:16:01] To me, that's one of the things

[01:16:02] in this whole entire experience

[01:16:04] that I've really felt motivated towards is justice.

[01:16:07] Talk to me about the desire for that,

[01:16:09] the origin of that and why?

[01:16:11] It's just my personality.

[01:16:12] I mean, I became a lawyer because I care about justice.

[01:16:16] I felt like I let people walk all over me for a long time.

[01:16:20] And then I realized like,

[01:16:22] I spend my business career fighting for people

[01:16:25] to get justice as best as I can.

[01:16:28] And the best thing I could do for myself

[01:16:30] is to get justice for myself.

[01:16:33] So my mission has been to get justice for myself

[01:16:36] and for everybody else that's in there.

[01:16:39] It's very, very hard to get people out of that cult.

[01:16:43] They will not take your phone call.

[01:16:45] They don't read anything.

[01:16:46] If they were to listen to this podcast

[01:16:48] or someone send it to them,

[01:16:49] what would you want to say to them?

[01:16:51] Well, so much.

[01:16:52] I guess one thing I would say

[01:16:53] is do you really think the leaders are your friends?

[01:16:57] You know, ask them for something

[01:16:58] that you really, really need and really, really want

[01:17:01] and see what they do and see what happens

[01:17:03] and see what kind of excuses they give

[01:17:06] for not doing it for you.

[01:17:07] Yeah, ask them something that inconveniences them for you.

[01:17:10] Right, I have managed to get some people out.

[01:17:12] Actually, I have a blog.

[01:17:13] That's great.

[01:17:14] Cultrevolt.com and some people have gotten out from that

[01:17:16] and few of them, they're like my best friends now.

[01:17:19] That's great.

[01:17:20] We joke, you know, and it's great

[01:17:21] and it means a lot to me to have done that.

[01:17:24] And I guess the other thing I was thinking about,

[01:17:26] you know, the best thing, they're very, very secretive.

[01:17:28] Nobody has written a book about them.

[01:17:30] The blogs that have been out there about them,

[01:17:32] besides mine, they're all anonymous

[01:17:33] except for Esther Friedman.

[01:17:35] People are just afraid.

[01:17:36] They're afraid to have their name out with this group.

[01:17:38] I wanted to lead the way and kind of be like a me too

[01:17:43] that other people from this group can speak out

[01:17:45] and I hope when the book comes out

[01:17:46] that people will step up and say,

[01:17:49] hey, this happened to me too.

[01:17:51] And the more people do that,

[01:17:52] hopefully it will shut them down

[01:17:54] because I'd like them to be shut down,

[01:17:55] but they're not, even though Sharon died,

[01:17:57] they're still very much around.

[01:17:58] I find that so hard to believe,

[01:17:59] given how hope she was.

[01:18:00] We'll see how long.

[01:18:02] Well, let me just ask you a quick question.

[01:18:03] There are still true believers in Nexium, right?

[01:18:05] Yeah, I mean less than 20 as far as we know.

[01:18:08] Okay.

[01:18:09] But I don't think it's like they're continuing the school.

[01:18:11] They think they're fighting for justice

[01:18:13] in a different way.

[01:18:14] Yeah.

[01:18:15] Spencer, thank you for writing this book.

[01:18:16] Thank you for getting out.

[01:18:18] Thank you for sharing your story,

[01:18:20] for fighting for justice.

[01:18:21] We need people like you.

[01:18:23] It's a pleasure as always.

[01:18:24] Thank you, Spencer.

[01:18:25] Thank you so much for having me.

[01:18:26] It was really fun.

[01:18:28] Imagine yourself walking into a forest.

[01:18:32] You can see the path and the trees,

[01:18:35] high above you, the air is crisp.

[01:18:37] You are walking towards your happy place.

[01:18:40] Allegedly, allegedly, say it with me.

[01:18:43] Anything said here on this podcast

[01:18:45] about alleged cults, alleged MLM schemes,

[01:18:48] alleged douchebaggery, mindfuckery,

[01:18:51] criminality, spiritual fraud or the like

[01:18:54] is offered purely as commentary

[01:18:57] because the views and opinions expressed

[01:18:59] on a little bit culty

[01:19:01] do not necessarily reflect on official policy

[01:19:04] or position of the podcast.

[01:19:06] And any content provided by our guests,

[01:19:08] bloggers, sponsors or authors

[01:19:11] are their opinion

[01:19:12] and are not intended to malign any religion,

[01:19:15] group, club, organization, business individual,

[01:19:18] anyone or anything.

[01:19:20] So just let these words drift into your mind

[01:19:23] without needing to focus on any of them.

[01:19:25] You are great.

[01:19:27] You are capable.

[01:19:28] You deserve to be happy.

[01:19:30] Nobody's mad at you

[01:19:32] unless you're actually a narcissistic culty criminal.

[01:19:35] If that's you, cut that shit out.

[01:19:38] Don't be a fuckwad.

[01:19:40] But if that's not you,

[01:19:41] again, you are great.

[01:19:43] You are capable.

[01:19:44] You deserve to be happy.

[01:19:46] A little bit culty loves you.

[01:19:51] Okay guys, so I hope you get a chance

[01:19:53] to read Spencer's book.

[01:19:54] I think you will all love it as much as we did,

[01:19:58] but before we send you on your merry way,

[01:20:00] Nippy, do you have any word salad for us?

[01:20:02] Yeah, Spencer gave me one

[01:20:03] that someone in his school used to say.

[01:20:07] This is specifically

[01:20:08] according to Gorgiev's apostle, Ospensky.

[01:20:11] This is Nippy sharing an email from Spencer,

[01:20:14] referring to Fred talking about

[01:20:16] what Ospensky said about Gorgiev.

[01:20:18] Okay, go for it.

[01:20:19] Here we go.

[01:20:19] Okay.

[01:20:23] In order really to observe oneself,

[01:20:25] one must first of all remember oneself.

[01:20:27] Try to remember yourself.

[01:20:29] When you observe yourselves

[01:20:30] and later on tell me the results.

[01:20:32] Only those results will have any value

[01:20:34] that are accompanied by self remembering.

[01:20:37] Otherwise, you yourselves do not exist

[01:20:39] in your observations.

[01:20:40] In which case, what are all your observations worth?

[01:20:43] Thank you, that'll be $5,000.

[01:20:46] Word salad.

[01:20:48] I love your word salad and I love you.

[01:20:50] And deuces.

[01:20:51] Have a great week everybody.

[01:20:53] See you next time.

[01:20:54] Let's keep the conversation going.

[01:21:01] We'll be back soon with more episodes of

[01:21:02] A Little Bit Culty with more experts and survivors.

[01:21:06] And sometimes experts who are survivors

[01:21:08] as well as some familiar faces

[01:21:09] from the vow from HBO.

[01:21:11] If you've got suggestions or questions

[01:21:13] on upcoming topics,

[01:21:14] please contact us at the end of the video.

[01:21:16] And we'll see you next time.

[01:21:54] Subscribe or swipe over the cover art of this podcast

[01:21:57] to find show notes and helpful resources.

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[01:22:03] you help us keep this podcast going.

[01:22:05] Just don't be a little bit culty about it.

[01:22:07] A Little Bit Culty is executive produced by me,

[01:22:10] your co-host Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nipi Ames.

[01:22:13] That's me.

[01:22:14] Associate producer is Jess Tardy,

[01:22:16] produced, edited, mixed and mastered

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[01:22:23] is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin.

[01:22:26] I'm Sarah Edmondson and thanks for listening to

[01:22:28] A Little Bit Culty.