PATREON REPLAY: A Chat with Jon Bryant

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on The Icon Pass. Don't be considered legal, medical or mental health advice.

[00:00:33] The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything. Hey everyone it's Nippy here. Here's a replay from The Vaults that was originally broadcasted

[00:00:48] especially for our A Little Bit Culty Patreon crowd. You can get more of this kind of thing plus ad-free flagship episodes and other exclusive treats you can hang out with us on Patreon. Cult chilling. Sometimes we zoom, sometimes we make word salads. You never know.

[00:01:02] So come on over why don't you? All the cool kids are doing it on Patreon. Find us at patreon.com slash a little bit culty. Welcome JB aka Jon Bryant in overdue interview, correct, sir? We've been talking about this I think actually well since the podcast existed.

[00:01:18] Yeah I think so, yeah. Really it's the song existed and then the podcast followed. The cult existed and then the song existed and then the podcast came. And before that you existed. I did. You were here. For the round.

[00:01:33] On Earth and somehow you managed to find your way into this crazy group. So let's start there. Which leads us to the first question. And I think for our audience it'd be great to hear what were the rumblings of what was probably ESP and ethos to you originally.

[00:01:49] And then the song didn't really exist as a name as much as it was, hey there's this chorus. Like what was your like walking around Vancouver, heard about it, heard the buzz, got in and then you hit single.

[00:02:01] Well I first heard about it through someone very close to me, a family member. And I'll leave it at that. She brought it up to me probably back in 2016, 2015 maybe a couple of times in a year.

[00:02:14] She said hey you're an artist, you want to build your business, you want to build your identity, you want to know yourself better, you want to become emotionally intelligent, mature, improve your life in every way possible. I have something for you. Here's the pitch.

[00:02:28] So she pitched it like that. Yeah it was like this will help you in every way as a musician, as an artist, as an actor. And then I was like nah I'm good, I'll be fine.

[00:02:37] Then I went on a tour and it was always money for me because as an artist I'm always like when am I going to get the next paycheck? And I went on a tour and I did pretty well.

[00:02:46] And I had some extra money and she was like you should do it, you should just do it. Yeah you're right. She's like if you knew you could improve your life indefinitely and exponentially and it just cost you this much money would you do it?

[00:02:59] I'm like yeah I guess I would. Like it's not that much considering what she's proposing could happen. So that's how I got into it. Did it happen? Yeah totally. Thank you Vanguard. Thank you Vanguard.

[00:03:12] I always loved knowing was there one particular thing in the pitch that you were going for? Like I'm gonna pay two grand and I want to X. Like what is it that you were wanting to develop and all those things that was really your, what was your hook?

[00:03:24] Oh the hook was family member. Family is huge. Yeah I was like first thing I heard. I trust this person. The thing that got me it's kind of silly to think about now but I would have like really bad temper tantrums when I'd be driving.

[00:03:38] And I remember you were there. We were at JJ Bean and we were chatting and you said what makes you really angry? And I said parking tickets and making a wrong turn. I just lose my mind.

[00:03:49] I'm just like if I miss like an exit I'll just go crazy. Is that you too? Yeah not many things to stir in my calm. You've seen me in traffic. Honestly he turns into a different person. Yeah. So I get it.

[00:04:00] But I guess you never EM that Nippy when you were in next year. I'm gonna keep it. Keep it yeah hold on. It's not limiting me with traffic. I'm already limited being in traffic. But also back up interesting nugget there just remembering

[00:04:11] sometimes these memories come back when people remind me. We did so many enrollment meetings at JJ Bean. Okay. Yeah so that was like. That was the spot. We called it our office because we didn't have an office right.

[00:04:21] So we'd meet at JJ Bean and we sat and we'd try to elicit like you know what people were going for and what their limitations were. I remember you talking about traffic. I'm gonna tell our American audience what JJ Bean is.

[00:04:30] Oh so JJ Bean for our Americans and Europeans and Africans and Asians and wherever else you live other than it. So diverse. So diverse. I'm super inclusive. JJ Bean is like a local coffee roaster. So most people here would never go to Starbucks. But good.

[00:04:48] Oh it's really good yeah it's a local company. It's like a good Starbucks. Yeah it's like ethnically sourced and all that stuff. Also inclusive. Those blood words. And sustainable. Sustainable. Anyway. Farmed at table. Farmed at table, organic, non-GMO, artisanal. Okay.

[00:05:02] So we're sitting there and JJ Bean and so we say like this is for the low, low price of 2160 you too can overcome your road rage and be a successful artist. And that was the hook. That was the hook. That was it.

[00:05:17] I was like this is a problem and I've had a temper growing up. I was homeschooled and I just got made fun of as a kid. So I kind of have a temper tantrum every time that would happen. And you know it was always this like thing.

[00:05:29] It was trigger. It was more like how'd it kind of interesting if I could like just stop doing that. Right. Like what a mind fuck. What a crazy idea. You know I don't have to live with this tantrum popping up every time something bad happened

[00:05:42] or something I made a mistake. All the things that promised were true and some of them were. It would be worth that. I still believe that if you could evolve any one of your limiting patterns it would be worth 2000. What were you going to say?

[00:05:56] Who ever said family member was did a really good job of you had trust and then just said well what if you could get rid of that would it be worth the cost. Yeah. I probably taught that family member how to do that.

[00:06:09] Those two things right there are kind of why someone would do it. Yeah. Because we believe that and that was our job is to isolate what somebody's main A their goals were. Right. What is it that you want and then what's stopping you from having that and sometimes

[00:06:23] it was just like trying to isolate one pattern. Yeah. One thing and then saying hey is it worth it to overcome that. Okay so then you did a five day first is that right? I did the five day yeah that's the only thing I did really.

[00:06:35] Right you didn't do ethos after? No I ran out of money. So we didn't overcome your financial limitations but did the five day address the issue that you signed up for. You know what it did I think it resolved a few other things that were going on too.

[00:06:52] I was dating Brie and who became my wife and at the time we weren't married yet but there was this ex of hers and every time he would come up in a conversation I would get really just there's this boiling anger that would

[00:07:05] just come out of me and I'd be so you know what I mean like this it's uncontrolled by C-Redd and it was nothing it just he just came up in conversation so that was one of the things that actually I was able to wipe out. Oh great. Completely.

[00:07:20] Did you have an EM about that? Yeah. Do you remember what was that and you don't have to share this but only if you're a solo client like do you remember what the sort of and I'm saying this because our patron audience always wants to know like you

[00:07:34] know what were the good parts about it like and so oftentimes when I try to explain what an EM is like is there's usually some belief that's like the underpinning of that reaction that kind of holds the whole thing in place do you remember what it was?

[00:07:45] I was explaining this to someone recently like maybe a few months ago in the process and I was like the process is really fuzzy right now because it was so long ago but the question of like what do you lose

[00:07:55] if you let go of this anger and hatred for this person. I was like oh I don't yeah it was a click and something happened where I some reason like an old car comes into my mind in the desert

[00:08:08] and like and I meet this guy and I'm like you know what you're okay man you know what I don't hate you know it was just it was in the palm desert and it was a Cadillac and we I don't know

[00:08:18] that kind of popped into my mind of like that just how I visualise because I tend to use imagery to represent moments like very profound moments where I'm letting go of something so that yeah that kind

[00:08:30] of popped into my mind just now of like it's just saying goodbye to that. That's great. Yeah letting go of that anger. I picture that now in a future music video. Yeah maybe. Yeah do you think? Yeah. We're gonna go down to Palm Desert. Talk therapy to art.

[00:08:43] Yeah well that's how it happens. I don't want to jump too far ahead to the song because lots of imagery there but we'll pause for a second so okay you did the fighting thing else from your five day that you remember that you never

[00:08:54] really talked about that like I you had a good experience overall right? Oh amazing yeah yeah it was great. I was hungry all the time and I had to be like should I go pee now or later or do I not pee? Always. And I got sick.

[00:09:10] Did you in it? Yeah I was in the bathroom twice. Really? Yeah yeah yeah at the center? Yeah. I got so sick but I was like I gotta push through like really making strides here you know that's the best. The bathroom would make you sick too.

[00:09:23] You puked and then we probably... The bathroom was basically a septic. Oh the bathroom was terrible. It was brutal. Going in the back. Oh my god it was like I'm sure I didn't help. No. Honestly it smelled like I was going into like raw sewage.

[00:09:38] Yeah no I know it's terrible. As you were. Any other like fun tidbits or like memories from the five day? Who taught your five day? His name was Alex. Alex? Jim Denegris. Jim Denegris. Do you know he's since passed? What?

[00:09:52] Yeah Jim passed away when did he pass away? August of 21. Yeah yeah he had a heart condition that Keith had convinced him was emotional. Oh my god. Yeah. Oh that's so sad. I know and he was such a good guy he was like he really cared.

[00:10:05] He was awesome. Yeah he really cared about people. He was a full on when you talk about being brainwashed like he was a full soldier for the mission you know. Yeah so he didn't leave he just stuck with Keith the whole time. Yep. Oh man.

[00:10:18] And he died before he could wake up. That is so sad. Yeah. I know poor Jim. Yeah. We loved him he was one of Nippy's groomsmen at our wedding. Wow yeah yeah he was very sweet guy nice to me you know.

[00:10:30] I remember we went out for lunch one day you, me and him and a bunch of other guys and yeah he seemed just like a sweetheart. Yeah. Did you connect with anyone else there that or is it mostly we have our mutual friend your

[00:10:41] family member who brought you in? Yeah. So what happened after that do you remember what life was like after your five day? Yeah I remember going out my wife still gets mad at me for this. What?

[00:10:52] Oh because we went out for for tacos at this place on Davy and she's like so how was it and I was like well honey I can't really talk about this. Oh no shit. You were doing the top secret thing.

[00:11:04] I was like I'm not thinking it's like so funny but like I was being top secret I was like I could get I could get sued if I talk about this. This is pretty sensitive information. And do you really feel that you can get sued?

[00:11:15] Yeah because the legal stuff with this with like the brunfmans and all that I'd heard about it. I had actually researched a bit about it before I did it and I'd seen that they were out suing but yeah I did tell her like it was very cool

[00:11:29] and it definitely changed my outlook my perspective and I felt more like in control of my emotions and I understood who I was a bit better. Yeah. So it did bring some awareness to your life? Yeah definitely and it still does.

[00:11:43] Talking about things that you don't normally talk about tend to do that regardless of who it's with. Yeah. And then you credit ESP for it.

[00:11:53] Well I mean we know now that he took from a bunch of modalities and packaged together essentially like talk therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, neuro-logistic programming, Buddhism, some new age stuff. Yeah. Some what's that guys name David Hawking's power versus force. Yeah I read that. Great book. Yeah.

[00:12:11] Literally when I read it when we were out I found like two or three passages that were verbatim. Oh really? Taken from it, lifted from it. Yeah. Which is wild.

[00:12:21] I have to say we love it when we run into people who were like I didn't tell you this but I was at a birthday party for one of the kids and there was a parent there that I had totally forgotten and come to ESP and she was a bit weirded me at first because she didn't know like I didn't talk to her

[00:12:34] and she's like I just want you to know like it really helped me in my life and like no harm, no hard feelings for me. And like no great. I mean we love to know that there was some good that came out of it and most people.

[00:12:44] The further away from Keith you were the more benign this looked.

[00:12:47] It looked, I mean that's the biggest thing that he was able to pull off is like you go to Mexico, you go to LA, you go to New York, you go to the Vancouver centers and you just feel like there's a bunch of people that are talking about their goals.

[00:12:59] Benign. And that's kind of the genius of it if you're going to call anything genius. It made it look like a school and a business. Yeah. But closer to him you got a worse.

[00:13:09] So for all the comments from the Patreon people are please tell John Bryant we love his song. I love it. So I'm going to listen, best podcast theme song ever. Sandy Art, love that song. Just an under hill.

[00:13:19] What is your take on the weird ass Nexium acapella stuff? Are you familiar with that whole story? Oh no. That was before your time. We're going to do another episode on that but long story short in 2010.

[00:13:32] No before we got married so like 20, 2007, eight, nine there was a whole acapella trend like around the time of Pitch Perfect and there was big in the colleges and Keith created like an acapella event.

[00:13:37] In Albany and brought all these major acapella personas, leaders, whatever you call them to Albany to do this event. And really it was just another way for him to like source out college girls. Yeah.

[00:13:49] That was always a way like how can I tap into that group of hot colleges or that group of young women or that group of young women. He was basically a predator. Yeah. But you weren't around so he was like, oh, I'm going to be a predator.

[00:14:01] No comment. No comment. Okay, so you go back to your life. You use the tools. How did you first hear about the shit hitting the fan? My family member friend called me up. I remember the street I was on.

[00:14:14] I was on Clark driving my car and she said, hey, there's going to be some news coming out in the next few days. It's going to be a big hit. I'm going to be a big hit. I'm going to be a big hit.

[00:14:26] And she said, hey, there's going to be some news coming out in the next few days. It's going to be in the New York Times and it's not good. I'm like, what is it?

[00:14:34] She's like, I can't say anymore because I have the Bronfons after me and the Bronfons. They're just so scary. They are so scary. But yeah, I think I pulled over and I was like, Bree was in the car with me. I was like, what? I wonder what happened.

[00:14:49] And I was like, probably some sex stuff. That's what I'm about. I bet Keith is like, fucking beat me. Like yeah, he's doing something weird. It's funny that you came to that on your own without having ever interacted with him because you never went to Albany. No.

[00:15:07] What else would it be? Yeah, exactly. I was so obsessed with cults at the time anyways, even before leading up to it. I'd watched a lot of documentaries and I was like, I don't know. He's got the long hair. He's doing Buddhist stuff.

[00:15:19] He's recruiting a lot of beautiful women. I think there's something, some sort of sex thing going on. That's initially what I kind of thought. Then did you dismiss that thought or did you maintain that thought?

[00:15:31] Because I had that thought too in the past but then I'm like, well, but he's the most ethical man in the world. Right. How could he be kind of a doubler? Mess around with people. Yeah.

[00:15:40] I don't remember if I dismissed it, but I remember thinking that it might be some sex stuff. Right. I was just initially like, because that's the way a lot of them go. That's so true. Yeah.

[00:15:52] Well, I didn't know that you were so obsessed with cults and one of our questions from Jess was what is your favorite cult? Because everybody has one. Ooh, my favorite cult. Shoot, I don't know. Or your least favorite. My least favorite.

[00:16:06] The one that you're most intrigued by, I guess would be another way to say it. Yeah. The Haley Bob Comet, that one, is fascinating to me. That's the one with T and Doe and the Mars and the Nike. Yeah. Oh my God, my my blank. Heaven's Gate.

[00:16:21] Heaven's Gate. Yeah. That one's the one of the first ones I ever heard of growing up. So that one always just was infamous for me. That one was crazy. Yeah. We haven't done an episode on that mostly because there's not many people left to interview. Yeah.

[00:16:32] There's some people that were in it and left but that's on the list. There's just been so many other pressing ones. What's your favorite one? I mean, there's favorite in terms of like, I find there's so many parallels and it was interesting to learn about.

[00:16:44] It was probably Boudha Field from Holy Hell. Oh yeah. Yeah, that was just a great movie as well. Favorite's a tough word for me. The one that's still the most intriguing is how Scientology gets away with what they're getting away with. That. Yes.

[00:16:58] I was just thinking about that. The ecosystem to support the success of its leaders in spite of everything that's coming out and how there's no one to put the cuffs on the perpetrators. It's just how? Yeah. How? How do you do it? Where's David Miscavige's wife? I know.

[00:17:16] I don't know. Where's she been for the last 15 years or whatever? I don't know. Liorimity took like, I think, 50 to 100k a round money to hire an attorney to find out. She's on it. If you go to her Twitter account, she basically exposes everything that she can still.

[00:17:30] Nothing's on sale. And I think there's things in place that protect them. Yeah. Okay. I'm sure the question that all our fans want to know, what is the story behind the hit theme song cultivated? Well, actually, I was just thinking about this this morning.

[00:17:45] I want to play, can I just, I'm just going to grab the guitar real quick. I'll play you what it was, what it started as. Yes. Okay. So you hear that this is blown up? Yeah. And then you read The New York Times. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:58] And then you were inspired to write what we are going to hear right now? Yeah. I think it was like the next day. You just picked up a guitar and wrote this? Yeah. I was in a studio just not too far from here the next day.

[00:18:08] Because the reason I was on Clark was I was coming from that studio writing that day. And the next day I go back and I'm like, hey, I think this thing I was in is a cult. And he was like, oh no way, that's crazy.

[00:18:21] And so I explained it. He was like, yeah, maybe that's a cult, man. Anyway, so we started writing like a few songs. And like maybe this one came a little later because then the news came out. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:31] It wasn't too much longer after my friend reached out and let me know that something was coming out in The New York Times. I think it was like two or three days later that it all came out.

[00:18:40] And then anyway, we wrote a song and it started like on acoustic guitar really chill. Like... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then we wrote the song, demoed it. Oh, what are you more? I don't want it to be over. So it's a little bit happier.

[00:19:02] It was happier. It was like folky. Yeah. You know? I'd have to find it. It's a totally different chord progression. Totally different chord progression. And two. And different melody. But dad's a folk singer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:19:15] But I heard the song and I was like, I don't love this song but I love the... And so I went back the next day or something and when I was like, I don't love the song but I like this part.

[00:19:28] Can we just throw a drum beat to it? Mm-hmm. And then he puts a drum beat to it and we put it in and like that is, that's it. And then we got to do something with that. And then we wrote this, what became cultivated that day. Wow.

[00:19:40] Yeah. And didn't change it after that? Didn't change it after that. No. But the first song, it was a song and then scrapped that and then it became cultivated. How did you find out about it? I'm trying to remember. I think you just reached out and told me.

[00:19:52] Yeah. Yeah, you're like, I wrote a song. Yeah. I probably saw you at some point after and was like, hey, here's a song I wrote about... And I just loved it. Yeah. Like as soon as I heard the lyrics, I think I even cried the first time I

[00:20:06] heard it. I was like, it really viscerally captured so much of my experience for me and that was, you know, I got shared this with you when you first sent it. Like music has been a big part of my healing process and at the time

[00:20:20] we didn't even have a podcast, right? So we were in talks with doing, we had sold our life rights to a company that obviously never made it but I remember we were excited and sent the files to the company and they're like, great.

[00:20:34] Like this is, we're nowhere near doing the opening theme song but I'm like, this is the song because we were going to be EPs on it. We're going to be producers first. Like this is a song and we'd also just been watching Big Little Lies.

[00:20:45] So you watched that series with that song Cold, Cold Heart. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's such a gripping visceral theme song for that show and totally hooks you right away. And so, and I felt that same way about cultivated. So I said, please like let us have it.

[00:21:00] And then that didn't go anywhere. And then the vow came out and then the podcast emerged and then we were like, let's do this. Yeah. Yeah. That's the origin. That's where it came from. Yeah. I found a spot. Yeah man. Found a very well loved spot.

[00:21:15] Found a very well loved spot. Like our audience. In fact, the song was more important than our podcast for a minute. What do you mean? People liked the song. People liked the podcast for a minute. Who is this guy?

[00:21:24] Well a lot of podcasts have just like a jingle, you know, you can buy off a bank and I. They're literally like ding dong ding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just so generic. Super generic and we're like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, welcome to this podcast.

[00:21:41] You know, like I could write one right now just humming or something. I think you sent me one of them and I was like, no, this shit, this is not going to fly. We have to make the song like. Yeah. There's no way. It just fits so well.

[00:21:56] It fits so well and it made it more meaningful also because A, you were a student. Yeah. And B, the song was about. The origin is not wrong. Yeah. It's from our experience too so we can relate. Yeah. This is totally spontaneous. I hadn't thought about this.

[00:22:13] Feel free to say no because I don't want to put you on the spot. But can we like play a couple of the like maybe the either the chorus or some of like the bridge or something just to like break, just talk about it? Sure. The lyrics themselves.

[00:22:24] Yeah. Music focus and we're in a studio and you have a guitar. I wasn't anticipating this so I didn't tune. That's okay. Well, since it's been on the top of the charts, how many weeks was it? On the top of the charts? Yeah.

[00:22:38] Oh, it's never been on the top of the charts. Not yet. Not yet, no. But it's well loved in. Turkey. Countries such, yeah, countries such as Turkey. It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, Turkey for some reason just took off. Do you think it's how they consume music?

[00:22:52] Countries kind of disperse it and distribute it and consume it differently. You said it was on a playlist. It was on play. Yeah, big playlist there. And it just, yeah, for some reason it just really blew up. I actually heard it in the dentist office. No way.

[00:23:05] Getting my teeth cleaned and no one was there. And I was just sitting there like, it's my song. It's my song. It's something I'm all about. It's my song. And then the girl came back in and I was like, oh, this is a cry.

[00:23:17] You don't have an idea what just happened. That's my song playing. She's like, cool. Say it one more time. That's my song. Yeah, guys, that's my song. And that's what I, yeah. I may or may not put that on the internet because that's so awesome. Do it. Okay.

[00:23:36] So, Brick, give us like a little taste. Sinking down down to the depths of the ocean. Oh wait. It's a fixation cultivated now. You're asking for a promise I can't keep. Just like a game of hide and seek. Secrets in the silence. When you speak.

[00:24:04] I'm trying to find the key. Holy smokes. I don't remember the key either. You can help me there. Yeah, it's an E minor. This is really funny. I can go brush accent and pretend. That was E minor, is it? Turn it up to 11. It's great now. Keep going.

[00:24:20] Sausage act. There it is. Yeah, there it is. Oh, here it is. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Like every lyric is so. You're asking for a promise I can't keep. Just like a game of hide and seek. The secrets in the silence. When you scream.

[00:25:06] Sinking down to the depths of the ocean. Hanging on to it in my love. Find that goal of it all I could leave. But I know I won't. Yeah. That's so good. They have shivers. It's so, so good. Yeah, it's a dark song.

[00:25:38] It's dark, but like every line has like a, like takes me to a, if you have the same thing, well probably we're different things in our heads, but it takes me back to like a different moment or like a different angsty kind of,

[00:25:52] like the silence when you scream. You know, like I feel like there were so many times where I was like, where I couldn't outwardly express how I was feeling. Yeah. Because we were so suppressed and you couldn't go up and express anything because then you'd be complaining

[00:26:04] and you couldn't go down because then it'd be bad leadership. So we were with this toxic positivity of like, it's so great. Trapped feeling. Yeah. Sure. And sinking down. Which is cultivated, isn't it? It really is. We're all cultivated. Are you just bringing your Nigel St. Hubbins?

[00:26:21] Whenever you talk music, you have to do it. You have to do it with a British accent. You have to finish everything with a question, don't you? I believe you do, yeah. Right? For as I know, yeah.

[00:26:33] Well let's just finish the rest of the interview in an accent, shall we? We should have taken gummies for this. That could be part two. If our audience really loves this, the next time we run it, we will just get super high.

[00:26:47] We'll pop a gummy and just pop a gum. We should have John down for our live event. Oh yeah. In Atlanta? Yeah. We're having a live event this fall. Oh yeah. We don't even pick a date yet but we want to have some bangers there.

[00:26:58] Yeah or we could also combine it around like if you have a trip to Nashville or something. Yeah. We've met some really amazing... He seems like he should be the opening. Well for sure you'd be the opening. Can I? Obviously. I'm just gonna ask. Yeah.

[00:27:14] You sure you'd be the opening. I think you guys taught me to like just ask. Yeah, just ask. Just ask the question. Yeah of course. I would like to be a part of this. Oh yeah. No it would be so fun and then we could like film it

[00:27:23] and do all sorts of stuff with it. I had some more questions. Hold on one second. What would it take to get you to join an actual cult? Again, snacks, good music. Have you ever been close to anything else called tea? Yeah.

[00:27:35] I was in Mars Hill Church in Seattle. You were? Yeah. No way. That was in 2012, 13, 14. I was like an active member. Were you doing music? I was yeah. Yeah. Yeah I got... I went to it and I was...

[00:27:51] And I had gone in 2004 and five because I was part of this like discipleship training thing through a church. Anyway so I went to Mars Hill then and then when I moved to Seattle for a few years I married a woman out there who is not Brie.

[00:28:03] And then we divorced soon after and there's a whole like abusive kind of system that that church put me through when I went through that divorce which is a whole other story. But yeah, I was in Mars Hill and that was very, very culting and lots of abuse.

[00:28:21] How did you get out? That wasn't so hard because I had to leave... I just had to get out of everything that was a part of my life in Seattle. So everything that me and my ex-wife were part of I had to basically cut ties with.

[00:28:34] So it wasn't too hard but it was emotionally really hard. Yeah. Because I had grown up in the church and I always been considered myself somewhat of like a leader in the church I guess or in that world. And then to be ex-communicated and also seen as

[00:28:49] like a coward or like a failure in that world was just really like a bit of an identity check and I had to come to grips with this new reality and leave it and walk away from it. And was any of that informing the song? A little bit.

[00:29:06] I mean for that album called Classic I pulled from a few things a few experiences in my life but that cultivated was definitely more about Nexium than Mars Hill. It makes me wonder not that I'm trying to therapy you or anything because I'm not a therapist.

[00:29:21] But when I heard the song I was like I'm surprised how accurate it was given how peripheral you were and you weren't... You didn't experience it with a quote, you know, bad stuff. So I wonder how much of it maybe subconsciously was from

[00:29:34] Mars Hill which I have heard is and there's we haven't done a deep dive on it but it's been requested that we do an episode on it and there's lots of... I think there's a documentary out about it right now, right? Yeah.

[00:29:44] Also I think you underestimate like yes it wasn't part of the bad stuff but taking it five days there's bad stuff in it and once the band-aids ripped off you can kind of go back knowing the thing that you just went through was bad

[00:29:56] and have a set of eyes that filter for the things that might have been bad and abusive. Right? Yeah. And that can reform. Or subconsciously he was healing and allowing others to heal. Now you got me thinking. Yeah, I mean that cultivated...

[00:30:11] That whole album could have been just growing up in the church you see so much and I'd seen so many aspects of it. I've worked in it. I had also played in a Christian band years previous and seen every church in America and Canada

[00:30:23] like every type of church. How did I know this? I don't know. That's messed up that I didn't... I like... I missed this huge gap. Yeah, I have a good pulse and what they all look like and sound like. It's not that mysterious how these things work. Yeah.

[00:30:38] Have you heard our episode with Will Rutherford who is our producer but also was high up in a number of different evangelical... as a musician as well. I don't know. I don't think I have. I'll send it to you. Yeah, please do. He'll be listening to this.

[00:30:53] Hi, Will. What's up, Will? I'm a really interesting faith journey. Through the whole thing, lots of overlap there I see. A couple post-Christians deconstructionists. Yes, exactly. Which is definitely kind of the culture right now and a lot of people deconstructing and still wanting to have a faith,

[00:31:13] something or a relationship with God or whatever you want to call it but not in the structure that they were raised in and trying to figure out how to do it. Yeah, it's a lot to navigate at 37. Yeah, 37. Yeah. Spring chicken. Justine Young Buck.

[00:31:29] But I also didn't know that you were married before. It's a whole pre-life that you've had. Anything that you noticed that's culty in the music industry which we were planning on doing a whole episode on but we haven't done yet. Without getting conspiracy theory, bro. Yeah, I know.

[00:31:46] Yeah, I think there are rabid fans that I would say are very cult-like in the way that they attack people that attack their leader. They're very defensive of Taylor Swift's fans. I love Taylor Swift. She's a great singer-songwriter artist and there are many other artists

[00:32:05] that have rabid fans but yeah, just that fandom seems very culty to me and then in the higher ups of labels and the way that they can kind of control artists and yeah, I've just heard really some horror stories of artists that'll get signed by a bigger artist

[00:32:20] or a bigger label. An artist who owns a label, they'll hire or they'll sign a bunch of artists that sound like that artist, the one artist. And then they'll shelve them. They'll give them 50 grand to record an album. They'll sign them in for like three or four albums

[00:32:35] which is about eight years of your life. So there's your career gone. So yeah, they'll shelve their whole thing so that they don't have any competition in that genre. Wow, that I'd never heard of. They did that in acting too. Yeah, that's true.

[00:32:48] They look like a guy that they're getting mine. Really? Yeah, those three or four that look like you or whatever. That explains my career. That's why I'm not famous. Well, everything's being decentralized now. So you kind of don't have... You still have to make wise decisions

[00:33:03] and understand the systems and the systems really aren't set up for your success. It's set up for their success. And a lot of those things right now because of technology are being neutralized which is why you see a lot of the fights that are going on right now.

[00:33:18] So there's positives to it. Well, for those people who don't know much about you one question that came up was what are your musical influences? So other than the church, how do you describe your music as a genre? Like what genre does it fit into? Indie singer-songwriter.

[00:33:33] Yeah, so it's not like mainstream pop and it's not fully folk so it's somewhere in the middle of that. So just modern folk or indie singer-songwriter would be how I explain it. But my biggest influences were Jeff Buckley, Bob Dylan, Neil Young, The Smiths. Yeah, those...

[00:33:50] I mean, there's so many. Joni Mitchell. Yes. But I'll go to some for lyrics. Right. Like for lyrical inspiration. Leonard Cohen would be a big one. No wonder. Yeah, he's the goat. And Bob Dylan. And Dylan, yeah. Two goats and Joni Mitchell. Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:06] And then for like music, if I'm like, I want to be inspired musically I'll listen to like Korean rockabilly or something just... Yeah, there's just a Korean rockabilly genre. Oh, that's just a genre. I'll just type it in and it'll be like, what's Korean rockabilly like?

[00:34:18] And then I'll just listen to that for a little bit and just try to... Switch it up. Yeah, just switch it up. Try to pull new ideas of like, okay, that sound or that rhythm or that tempo, you know, see what I can do in that world. Farron.

[00:34:30] Yeah. You know who Farron is? Farron? Yeah. No. Farron played at the folk festival and I grew up with Farron because it was just like a Canadian folk. Folk legend. And Sarah and her mom were like, you don't know who Farron is? I'm like, guys, come on.

[00:34:45] And then two people separate from my mom were like, oh yeah, Farron is epic. Farron is like a legend. So I'm at the folk festival. I'm like, Farron, everyone I got, she's an icon, you know, like I'm just, I have no idea she is. Icon.

[00:34:58] But he also didn't know who Rafi was when I met him. A lot of people know who Rafi are. No, he knows. I know. Yeah. Okay. But I'm Canadian. Yeah, yeah. But I'm Canadian. It's a really important part of that kind of sentence. I know a lot.

[00:35:10] I go to Sarah, I go Farron is like B.C.'s Bob Dylan. She's like exactly like B.C.'s straight face. I'm like, Sarah, I was totally joking. Nobody knows who Farron is except people here. Everyone was trying to act like she's this huge icon.

[00:35:24] I was like, you know, come on. And then there was the other one, Ray Cooter. You know Ray Cooter? Of course. Guitar legend. See? He taught Steve Vai. Okay, okay, okay. Maybe so. All right. This might all be true, but they were talking about Ray Cooter.

[00:35:37] Ray Cooterman or Ray Cooter? Ray Cooter, son is playing. Oh yeah. And I'm like, okay. Oh so Ray Cooter wasn't playing? No, it wasn't. There was his son. Which fair enough, but everyone was just acting like it was this like... The big deal at the Folk Fest.

[00:35:51] Big deal. It was just funny how I was like, when Sarah was like, yeah, I hear Farron's playing. She's like, yeah, it's Candace Bob Dylan. Like Sarah. I know, I'm just talking shit. But it all started with Rafi. But I will say Farron was good. Yeah. Is good.

[00:36:07] Okay. Check Farron out. How do you spell that by the way? F-E-R-R-O-N. Our Patreon fans are going to weigh in on this I'm sure, because they always do. Yeah. But where and where can people find you and what's the best way to keep in touch with you? Oh.

[00:36:22] Do you have like a newsletter? I don't have a current newsletter going out, but I have Instagram and I use that mostly, which is not much these days, but trying to muster the strength to jump on social media. Kids are on TikTok. I hear that, yeah.

[00:36:39] And I'm on threads in TikTok. What's threads? Somebody has invited me to threads. What is it? This is the new Twitter. Is it less volatile? For now. For now. We'll see where it goes. You've heard how I've described to our audience what Twitter is.

[00:36:52] It's the bathroom wall for social media. Yeah. It's the dumpster fire. It really is. No one's on there to listen. They're there to persecute you for having a different play system. Or fortify your own. They go to Twitter to fortify their own.

[00:37:06] Or to say for a good time call. Yeah, there's that too. Right. In the bathroom wall. That's what I used to say. For a good time tweet. So on so. So you're going to come to Atlanta and do our opening. And we'll get a date.

[00:37:21] We'll get a date. What's next for you now as a singer, songwriter, husband, artist? And you're acting too, right? I am, yeah. How's that going? Good. There's a strike now. I don't know if you... It sucks right now.

[00:37:33] I did a movie like a MOW couple of weeks ago. So that was good. And you were playing a singer? I was playing a singer and the best friend of the lead who, yeah. It was a supporting role.

[00:37:44] So you were like number four or five on the call sheet. Yeah. That's huge. In on that. Yeah. Oh yeah. It was great. Yeah. Honestly, supporting roles in MOWs are so great because you're not in every day. You get paid well.

[00:37:56] It's enough days to get a chunk of change. And you can learn a lot too about the film industry because you're like just there a lot. You're probably there at a lot of scenes. You don't have to do too much. You probably didn't have a lot to memorize.

[00:38:05] Am I right? Honestly, the three scenes I was in, my lines were all the same. Basically, I jump into the conversation between the two leads and I'm like, wow, Amelia, that's really cool of you. Thanks so much. And then I leave.

[00:38:17] All three scenes had the same kind of thing. It was so easy. And did you ever encourage them to date not to give up the chance? I didn't even get it. No. It was the same line. They didn't even need your advice. No, man.

[00:38:29] You just played the song. They knew. You set the tone. And you got to play a song. Yeah, it looks great. We were actually playing the song in the scene. And it was at your song? I wrote one of the songs actually for the movie. That's amazing.

[00:38:42] So it was cool. You had to be involved in that part because the label was like they reached out and then my acting agent reached out for the same movie separately. So then I got both to write a song for it and also to be in it.

[00:38:53] Yeah, paid for two skill sets. Yeah. That's so cool. Cash in. Yeah, cash in, man. Make that balance. Yes. Yes. Well, and can you work in the U.S.? How does that work when you do tours and stuff? Yeah, so I'm getting an 01.

[00:39:08] And then the plan right now is there's a friend down in the states that willing to let me sublet his place. So get down there. In Nashville? No, to LA. Okay. Yeah. So we'll see. Yeah, Nashville's on the horizon, but I think for this winter we'll do LA.

[00:39:22] Well, as soon as we are dialed into the agency in which we are not yet because we've been moving, we can also help there because... Oh, shit. Yeah. And you can come and do work in Atlanta. That'd be amazing. Yeah, that'd be still great.

[00:39:33] So thank you so much for letting us come and do this after two and a half years of talking about it. Yeah, we're cultivated officially. Yes, we're officially cultivated. We're fully cultivated. Thanks for having me. Thank you.

[00:39:45] And maybe we can at the end of this play the full song and we'll link to all your stuff in our show notes. Please do. Yeah. That's great. And we'll see you soon. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:43:17] Thank you.