Patreon Replay: Sarah’s Mom Has Got It Going On

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical

[00:00:04] or mental health advice.

[00:00:05] The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of

[00:00:09] the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization,

[00:00:13] business, individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:24] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:25] And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy, Ames.

[00:00:28] And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:00:31] A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:36] Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories

[00:00:40] told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:00:42] Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:46] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already

[00:00:50] prime recruitment material.

[00:00:52] You might even already be in a cult.

[00:00:54] Oops.

[00:00:55] You better keep listening to find out.

[00:00:56] Welcome to Season 6 of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:01] Hey everyone.

[00:01:18] We have a special Mother's Day episode for you featuring none other than the Bubba Nader,

[00:01:24] AKA Sarah's mother.

[00:01:26] We aired this earlier this year on Patreon, but we wanted to unlock it for everyone far

[00:01:30] and wide because as the title states.

[00:01:33] Sarah's mom has got it going on.

[00:01:35] Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

[00:01:36] That's the name of the episode?

[00:01:37] It's like from the sun.

[00:01:38] Oh, it is?

[00:01:39] Is that what it's from?

[00:01:40] Yes, his mom has got it going on.

[00:01:41] Yeah, you know what that song's about?

[00:01:42] No.

[00:01:43] Okay, maybe I want to read the lyrics before you go name it a podcast episode after.

[00:01:47] You're going to blame Jess Tardy for that one.

[00:01:49] Oh well.

[00:01:50] We also wanted to highlight the fact that we've now made Patreon more accessible to

[00:01:53] everyone.

[00:01:54] Now you can get access to episodes like this one early and ad-free every month for just

[00:01:59] five bucks.

[00:02:00] That's a matcha latte, isn't it, Sarah?

[00:02:02] I spend more on a matcha latte than five bucks.

[00:02:04] You do actually.

[00:02:05] It's probably more like six or seven dollars.

[00:02:06] Yeah, no, it's absurd.

[00:02:07] It's not just one bonus.

[00:02:09] In fact, we'll be dropping four episodes exclusively on Patreon every month.

[00:02:14] Plus it's a good time over there, right Sarah?

[00:02:16] You're really selling it.

[00:02:17] It's so much fun over there.

[00:02:18] It is a good time.

[00:02:19] It's more casual.

[00:02:21] Sometimes we have guests like the one-

[00:02:22] We let our hair down.

[00:02:23] We have guests like the one you're about to hear and also one with my brother is in the

[00:02:27] works coming up.

[00:02:29] Never before heard from brother of Sarah Edmonds.

[00:02:32] We really tear through your family members on Patreon.

[00:02:35] There's your mom, your dad, and your brother.

[00:02:37] You're just exploiting the Edmondson Shapiro family over there.

[00:02:42] But most of the time it's just Nipi and I discussing the episodes.

[00:02:46] We discuss what's happening in the Cultiverse.

[00:02:48] We read letters from our guests.

[00:02:49] We play voicemail.

[00:02:50] Sarah smokes a pipe.

[00:02:51] She just hangs out and really lets it all out.

[00:02:53] I've never smoked a pipe.

[00:02:54] Actually, I've seen you smoke a pipe.

[00:02:56] Well, define pipe.

[00:02:57] I've never smoked a pipe.

[00:02:59] Well, if it had marijuana in it, you would smoke a pipe.

[00:03:02] This is not the place and the time.

[00:03:04] As everyone knows, I do.

[00:03:05] Your mom's going to be listening to this.

[00:03:07] No, my mom knows.

[00:03:08] My mom knows that I do gummies.

[00:03:09] That you smoke a pipe?

[00:03:10] No, that I do gummies.

[00:03:11] That's so racy.

[00:03:12] I do gummies.

[00:03:13] Okay, enough about Patreon.

[00:03:14] I can't really smoke anymore.

[00:03:15] It hurts my lungs.

[00:03:16] No, I can't either.

[00:03:17] Plus it's so passe.

[00:03:18] All right, enough about Patreon.

[00:03:19] But yeah, anyway, we do normally just Nipi and I talking about those things.

[00:03:22] We also read good and bad reviews.

[00:03:24] You see the segue where it says, but enough about Patreon?

[00:03:26] Oh yeah, but wait.

[00:03:27] Yeah.

[00:03:28] Anyway, all that for five bucks in our opinion.

[00:03:31] As my aunt Simone used to say, can't afford not to buy it.

[00:03:34] We should have aunt Simone on.

[00:03:36] Maybe we can.

[00:03:37] While we're at it.

[00:03:38] We'll see.

[00:03:39] We'll just have the whole family on.

[00:03:40] It's half of Canada, by the way.

[00:03:42] And the Patreon support from our amazing listeners keeps this show gumming to your podcast feed.

[00:03:47] So thanks everyone who's already joined us there.

[00:03:49] Can I throw some Canadian facts at people while we're talking about Canada?

[00:03:51] What about the circling back to enough about Patreon?

[00:03:53] Okay, but enough about Patreon.

[00:03:54] Let's talk about Canada.

[00:03:56] 50% of Canadians population lives within two hours of Toronto.

[00:04:00] And Toronto is the third or fourth biggest metropolis in North America.

[00:04:05] And 90% of the people in Canada live within two hours of the US border.

[00:04:09] And I think it is the biggest land mass country in the world.

[00:04:13] Nippies fact.

[00:04:14] And it only has 40 million people in it, which it recently passed.

[00:04:17] And that's as big as California.

[00:04:19] And California's GNP is bigger than Canada.

[00:04:21] Wild.

[00:04:22] Just become a state.

[00:04:23] One of those people in Canada is my mother.

[00:04:25] So back to the main event.

[00:04:27] There's our chat with the nameless Sarah's mom.

[00:04:30] Protecting her anonymity.

[00:04:31] I mean, if you want to search on my Instagram, you'll probably figure out who she is in about

[00:04:34] 20 seconds.

[00:04:35] Yeah, it will be hard.

[00:04:36] Here's our chat with my mom about NXIVM, about loving someone through a cult entanglement

[00:04:41] and the power of a mama's love.

[00:04:43] Enjoy.

[00:04:44] All right, here we are everyone with another very special episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:05:03] We get to grill Sarah's mom, aka Bubby, aka the Bubbinator, aka the Bubberama.

[00:05:11] Let's roll the dice.

[00:05:14] See what happens.

[00:05:15] Podcast history being made.

[00:05:17] Sarah, take over.

[00:05:18] And I'm sharpening my knives over here, Owen.

[00:05:22] Probably one of the most anticipated interviews of all time.

[00:05:26] People have been asking to hear from you, mom, because you and I have been on a journey.

[00:05:31] Am I right?

[00:05:32] We really have.

[00:05:33] We really have.

[00:05:34] And I feel like this is going to be really healing.

[00:05:36] Pretty sure I was there.

[00:05:38] Nippy was riding shotgun.

[00:05:41] Anyway, let me give a proper introduction.

[00:05:43] This is Ellen, aka my mama and-

[00:05:45] Bubberama.

[00:05:46] The Bubberama.

[00:05:47] And she's been my ride or die since literally day one.

[00:05:50] So I'm not only excited that she's visiting us here.

[00:05:53] I'm going to cry.

[00:05:54] It has been a journey.

[00:05:57] Okay.

[00:05:58] She's been visiting us here in Atlanta, but I'm also thrilled to finally have her on the

[00:06:02] show to talk about cats and crocheting and things like that.

[00:06:06] Crystals.

[00:06:07] There was a time that I was in a cult for 12 years and then blew the whistle and became

[00:06:12] a cult podcaster.

[00:06:13] But before all that, Nippy.

[00:06:16] People have been hounding us from all over the place to have this episode.

[00:06:22] So here we are.

[00:06:23] Welcome.

[00:06:24] Welcome, mom.

[00:06:25] Good to be here.

[00:06:26] How are you feeling?

[00:06:27] I'm really excited.

[00:06:28] You look a little nervous.

[00:06:29] Oh yeah.

[00:06:30] Here it comes.

[00:06:32] Obviously, we already know the answers to some of these questions, but I'm going to ask

[00:06:37] them again so we can get you on the record.

[00:06:41] Some of these things.

[00:06:42] Can you share with us your initial impressions of me?

[00:06:46] How awesome.

[00:06:47] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:06:48] Can you share with us your initial impressions?

[00:06:49] I think we need a whole separate show for that.

[00:06:52] We probably should.

[00:06:53] It'd be short.

[00:06:54] Can we share with us your initial impressions when Sarah first became involved with NXIVM

[00:06:57] and can you take us back to that?

[00:06:59] I was not there for that.

[00:07:00] I was there for a few minutes before I came into your life and changed it.

[00:07:03] For the better, of course.

[00:07:04] Like in 2005 when I first started taking classes, what was your first gut instinct?

[00:07:09] My first gut instinct was not positive.

[00:07:12] By the way-

[00:07:13] We know that.

[00:07:14] Mom, you do not have to be diplomatic with me anymore.

[00:07:16] For the record, for our audience, my mom was very gentle with her observations as to not

[00:07:21] push me away.

[00:07:22] I think she's still used to doing that.

[00:07:24] You can let your true authentic self come out.

[00:07:27] I'm not going to-

[00:07:28] Yeah, Vanguard's in jail.

[00:07:29] Vanguard's in jail.

[00:07:31] What was your first thought when I came back talking about- probably when I even told you

[00:07:34] I signed up before I even took it.

[00:07:35] Yeah.

[00:07:36] What did you think?

[00:07:37] The first things that I felt very cautious about was that this was the program, that

[00:07:42] this was the thing you've just discovered, that these guys were onto something that nobody

[00:07:46] else was.

[00:07:48] Teachers that I've had in my life are incredibly humble.

[00:07:50] When I heard that he was promoting that he was the smartest man in the world and that

[00:07:55] he had the highest IQ of anyone in the world, I was really concerned.

[00:08:00] First of all, I didn't believe it.

[00:08:02] How would he even know that?

[00:08:03] But who does that and why?

[00:08:06] And not the leaders or teachers that I respect who are more in the background and the focus

[00:08:12] is on the people that they're working with, not on themselves.

[00:08:15] So that was the biggest thing that I was concerned about.

[00:08:19] And to clarify for our audience, you had been in the personal development and would you call

[00:08:23] it transformation or self-awareness?

[00:08:26] What do you call the work you'd done up until that time?

[00:08:29] Humanistic psychology and personal professional development in this area.

[00:08:34] So what was it like when your 27 year old daughter told you that all that was bogus

[00:08:38] and found a better solution?

[00:08:40] In fact, not only a better solution, but the only solution.

[00:08:43] I think it's natural that your children are going to find different things or have a different

[00:08:47] view about things that you're doing or I'm doing as a parent.

[00:08:51] So it's more that this groups into presenting themselves as the only way.

[00:08:56] Because I remember they didn't seem to want to talk to other people about what they were

[00:08:59] doing that where there might be some commonality.

[00:09:02] It was all focused on getting people to sign up for this thing in which there was an incredible

[00:09:07] amount of pressure.

[00:09:08] So what were the biggest red flags other than the ones you just said?

[00:09:11] When did the bells really start to go off for you?

[00:09:14] Because I remember you took some trainings early on.

[00:09:16] Yeah.

[00:09:17] I first walked into the room with a giant picture of Keith, but I was very alarmed by

[00:09:25] the secret signals and hand shaking and bows.

[00:09:30] The fact that it was supposed to be mimicking martial arts, I did not buy that.

[00:09:35] I found it very concerning.

[00:09:38] I took my first five day and then you ended up taking the five day training.

[00:09:43] How did that happen considering you were already in line A?

[00:09:46] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:09:48] She would never say that.

[00:09:49] Yeah, I don't consider...

[00:09:50] I wouldn't ever want to say that I'm enlightened.

[00:09:53] Well, at that point you weren't promoting it.

[00:09:56] You were just taking courses and it was something you really wanted to do with me.

[00:10:02] And I wanted to do that literally to be with you because you're my daughter.

[00:10:05] And I think, well, maybe give this a chance and see what it is.

[00:10:09] And literally to have that experience with you.

[00:10:12] Yeah, I'm very curious too.

[00:10:15] And were any of your fears alleviated with the curriculum?

[00:10:18] You know what, when I did the curriculum all along I had red flags.

[00:10:23] My approach is, okay, I know who I am.

[00:10:25] I'm not going to get swept up in this.

[00:10:27] I'm going to see what this has to offer and experience it.

[00:10:31] And no, my fears were not alleviated.

[00:10:34] There were some very bizarre things in there, in the curriculum.

[00:10:37] Like what?

[00:10:38] I can't remember.

[00:10:39] It was a sleep curriculum.

[00:10:42] I recall you sleeping most of the time, Mom, which at the time only fortified my belief

[00:10:48] that you weren't open.

[00:10:50] You said you were open, but you weren't open and probably because you were defended because

[00:10:54] you believed your way was the only way because you're a therapist and therapists don't know

[00:10:57] what they're talking about.

[00:10:58] So that was my perspective at the time.

[00:11:00] Or the curriculum was boring.

[00:11:03] The curriculum was very strange.

[00:11:05] And it was like putting together things that you've heard of or studied or whatever in a

[00:11:10] different way.

[00:11:12] But some of it, I can't remember what they called what eventually became evident as sociopathy.

[00:11:16] Oh, being suppressive?

[00:11:18] Yeah, being suppressive.

[00:11:20] And it doesn't come as any surprise to me that this material was all scavenged from

[00:11:25] other people's legitimate work and approaches that they had.

[00:11:30] I remember my mom was the demo for the projection sourcing, which was basically a demonstration

[00:11:39] of how an EM works where you're mad at somebody else.

[00:11:43] Is this something you feel comfortable sharing or would you prefer to keep that private?

[00:11:47] I could share, try to share it.

[00:11:49] I mean, the people are very nice people there.

[00:11:51] And this woman was, I felt comfortable with her and I wanted to see what it was.

[00:11:54] I wanted to get something out of this.

[00:11:56] But what I felt, feel that my head got, they were trying to turn my head around about a

[00:12:02] very an experience with somebody I was dating at the time who was doing them very slimy

[00:12:07] things.

[00:12:08] And somehow turned around that it was actually me who was doing that.

[00:12:13] And then I thought, what?

[00:12:14] This is really confusing.

[00:12:15] This doesn't feel right at all.

[00:12:17] And it really affected me actually because I didn't have that word at the time, but playing

[00:12:22] around with your head.

[00:12:24] And I think this guy did something really bizarre and now I'm being told that I did it.

[00:12:30] Because you had like not spied on him, but you'd checked his like internet web history

[00:12:36] on your computer.

[00:12:37] That was on my computer.

[00:12:38] Ellen, busted.

[00:12:39] And so you had caught him and gotten mad about it.

[00:12:42] And that's what you use as your projection sourcing.

[00:12:44] And then the sort of thesis was, well, because you'd been spying on him, you were the one

[00:12:48] actually that was being slimy.

[00:12:50] And that's just like such a great example, no, terrible that it happened.

[00:12:53] And I'm so sorry that happened to you, but it's such a perfect example of what gaslighting

[00:12:57] looks like.

[00:12:58] Oh, actually the problem's within you because you're the one that's going behind his back

[00:13:02] and checking up on him.

[00:13:03] Yeah.

[00:13:04] And at the end of that first five days, I got a major pressure to sign up for the long

[00:13:11] program, I can't remember what it's called again.

[00:13:14] I've blocked that out.

[00:13:15] The 11 day.

[00:13:16] Oh dear.

[00:13:17] Was that me who pressured you?

[00:13:18] No, it was one of your team there.

[00:13:21] I think it was Barbara Boucher.

[00:13:22] Yeah.

[00:13:23] And it was a lot of pressure.

[00:13:25] And they also said you couldn't get out of it.

[00:13:27] And then right after that, I decided to look it up online and every single thing that I

[00:13:32] had either brought up or experienced was there.

[00:13:34] And I thought, I don't feel good about this.

[00:13:37] And so I tried to get out of it and that was very difficult.

[00:13:40] They made it seem like this is my only opportunity to resolve all my health issues.

[00:13:46] And it was not a pleasant kind of pressuring and wasn't what they said would happen if

[00:13:51] you decided you didn't want to sign up for it.

[00:13:53] So I was concerned.

[00:13:55] I have a question.

[00:13:56] Yeah.

[00:13:57] So I show up halfway through Sarah's experience here to this thing.

[00:14:02] And Sarah at this point.

[00:14:03] I was a year in.

[00:14:04] But like, I didn't really start going out to Vancouver to 2009, 2010.

[00:14:07] I don't think I met your mom till probably 2010, 2011.

[00:14:10] No, you would have met her in 2009, whatever later.

[00:14:13] Before we were dating, she was waving at the door and wouldn't come in and say hi to people

[00:14:16] because she was appropriately weirded out.

[00:14:18] What?

[00:14:19] What was I doing?

[00:14:20] When you came in, you came into the, when it was down on at that hotel, the level 2A.

[00:14:24] Yeah.

[00:14:25] That was 2009.

[00:14:26] Okay.

[00:14:27] And that was the first time I met her.

[00:14:28] But the first, well, I met her, but then she picked us up at the airport.

[00:14:31] I think that was like 2011.

[00:14:32] We had a big fight.

[00:14:33] No, you and your mom had a big fight.

[00:14:34] Yeah.

[00:14:35] Yeah.

[00:14:36] I think your mom won.

[00:14:37] I remember.

[00:14:38] At this point, Sarah's deep in, she's having success in the organization.

[00:14:41] She's having what looks like external success by running a center and starting all those

[00:14:46] benchmarks are being hit.

[00:14:48] But I imagine at this point you're having conversations with other family members.

[00:14:52] What their impression of what she's doing is, we're not an axiom.

[00:14:56] So basically there's some chatter going on behind the scenes.

[00:15:01] How are you continuing with that?

[00:15:02] And how would the other family members continue with that while Sarah was what looked like

[00:15:06] living her best life?

[00:15:08] Because it's hard for you to reconcile.

[00:15:10] Sarah's doing well, happy, thriving.

[00:15:12] And then behind the scenes, you guys are having these conversations.

[00:15:16] Talk to us about that.

[00:15:17] Actually, we weren't having those conversations.

[00:15:19] I wasn't talking to other family members.

[00:15:21] Yeah.

[00:15:22] Not at the beginning.

[00:15:23] Yeah.

[00:15:24] But I didn't want to betray you or cause any problems for you.

[00:15:28] So I really feel that I kept it to myself more.

[00:15:31] Maybe a couple of close friends I told about it.

[00:15:36] This podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons.

[00:15:40] Are you with us?

[00:15:41] Come find us over on Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty for bonus episodes,

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[00:15:51] It's a lot of fun over there, people.

[00:15:59] This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[00:16:01] As you can probably imagine, being in a cult for over a decade took a toll on some of my

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[00:18:44] Break time's over people.

[00:18:49] Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:18:52] It's a good one.

[00:18:53] I know your dad and my dad bonded over the fact that it was a cult.

[00:18:58] Were you privy to those conversations?

[00:18:59] No, I didn't know anything about that.

[00:19:01] Yeah, apparently.

[00:19:02] Well, I've since spoken to my dad and he's like, yeah, I love Jack because I guess my

[00:19:05] dad's like, you mean like it's a cult?

[00:19:07] And Jack's like, you got that vibe?

[00:19:08] I knew that's what they were bonding over at the time at the wedding, but I wondered

[00:19:11] if you were-

[00:19:12] No, I wanted to hear more about that.

[00:19:14] That's the extent of it.

[00:19:16] I think your dad and my dad are very throwback kind of guys.

[00:19:20] And they're just like, what is this?

[00:19:22] Kind of like how I was at first and how a lot of people were at first.

[00:19:24] And we were all sensitive to the impression it had on people.

[00:19:27] I'm just wondering what conversations may have had behind the scenes.

[00:19:30] Because I know some of your extended family were like, yep, it's a cult.

[00:19:33] And we're like happy to see us out.

[00:19:35] We didn't know that till recently.

[00:19:37] I was very careful because I was conscious of Sarah's relationships with family members

[00:19:43] and I didn't want to be saying anything negative about her to them.

[00:19:48] So I wasn't sharing that with them maybe on occasion, but why did you think that I was?

[00:19:55] We didn't.

[00:19:56] When did you start to consult?

[00:19:58] I know that there was a point to maybe have an intervention.

[00:20:02] Oh yeah, that's right.

[00:20:04] One of them who was living in town was becoming concerned and the main person I had discussions

[00:20:10] with was with your dad.

[00:20:13] I'm not sure whether I want to talk about that here because that's his story.

[00:20:16] Regardless, I think what's fair to say is that different people weren't sure how to handle

[00:20:20] it and it also seemed that they were confused because even though they thought it was a cult

[00:20:24] or something was weird about it, I apparently seemed to be doing great.

[00:20:29] So what was that like for you?

[00:20:30] I started to have external success in the outside world is what we'd call it.

[00:20:35] Was that conflicting to your feelings that I was involved in something bad?

[00:20:40] My life looked good on the outside.

[00:20:41] I was worried about it because I thought you were being groomed, especially by Nancy who

[00:20:45] I had a very negative impression of right from the start.

[00:20:49] Tell me your favorite Nancy story.

[00:20:52] I can't remember.

[00:20:55] Can you tell me what my favorite story?

[00:20:56] Go off, go off Ellen.

[00:20:57] This is your opportunity.

[00:20:58] My mom still thinks she's going to get sued.

[00:21:00] You could just say in my opinion and in my experience first.

[00:21:03] You can say whatever you want.

[00:21:04] But I literally, I just don't think that Nancy was genuinely interested in me.

[00:21:10] And let's have lunch, we're in similar age group and I really think that because I was

[00:21:14] so suspicious of it that she was suspicious of me and that's what I think.

[00:21:19] So very hard to form a real connection with her.

[00:21:22] But I think the worst thing was when you called her your second mommy.

[00:21:27] I'd like to publicly apologize for that to you, mom.

[00:21:30] I think it was first.

[00:21:31] Don't you dare.

[00:21:32] It was never, no, you were always number one, but she was a second mommy to a lot of people

[00:21:37] and that's part of the gross dependency that she created and it's nauseating to look back

[00:21:41] on.

[00:21:42] Also, I do agree with you on, I do think she saw you as an obstacle in owning Sarah's time,

[00:21:49] production, et cetera.

[00:21:50] Yeah.

[00:21:51] Because you were a voice in her ear.

[00:21:52] Yeah.

[00:21:53] One of the things that I experienced at that time at V-Week when we had, I went to a meeting

[00:21:57] about the Rainbow Cultural Garden and for once I just didn't hold back and I asked all

[00:22:03] the questions and I was suspicious about that program.

[00:22:06] I had really big concerns and the leader got very mad at me.

[00:22:11] And then I think Sarah, you wanted to go tell Nancy about this and that-

[00:22:16] To the record, I don't remember wanting to tell on you, but it's also not outside the

[00:22:21] realm of possibility.

[00:22:22] So go ahead.

[00:22:23] Well, I think you said you should talk to Nancy about this.

[00:22:25] I may not remember it correctly, but from that point her displeasure with me was extremely

[00:22:31] evident and I was really uncomfortable.

[00:22:34] But one of the things, remember, I think the time you're talking about Nippy when I was

[00:22:38] at a, was it at a hotel downtown that you were doing something?

[00:22:41] And I was really upset because on Mother's Day, there was instead going to be a giant

[00:22:48] festival of flowers for Nancy.

[00:22:50] Oh, really?

[00:22:51] Yeah.

[00:22:52] That's horrible.

[00:22:53] Yeah.

[00:22:54] I remember that.

[00:22:55] What?

[00:22:56] Are you sure?

[00:22:57] I don't think that was what happened.

[00:22:58] In May?

[00:22:59] No, it wasn't taking place there, but I found out about it.

[00:23:00] It was going to be in New York.

[00:23:01] Yeah.

[00:23:02] It was going to be in New York?

[00:23:03] Yeah.

[00:23:04] It was in May?

[00:23:05] Yeah.

[00:23:06] Huh.

[00:23:07] You remember that?

[00:23:08] That must have been really upsetting.

[00:23:09] I remember, I thought, you know, we're going to be conflicting times, but I also had some

[00:23:11] experiences like the whole thing, like the ranking system.

[00:23:15] I remember one day I did not feel comfortable at the center, particularly when Nancy was

[00:23:20] there, but going in there and I had some pretty serious eye issues at the time, coincidentally.

[00:23:25] I didn't want to see certain things, but I remember it was your birthday and Mark's

[00:23:30] birthday and Nancy was there and I was placed in the back row, very back row.

[00:23:34] Because you were a white sash?

[00:23:35] Yeah.

[00:23:36] And I thought, what about the fact that I'm your mother and it's your birthday and I can't

[00:23:40] see anything?

[00:23:41] But it was the ranking system.

[00:23:44] Absolutely.

[00:23:45] I think, how do you rank people in this way?

[00:23:48] Like who has an absolute nerve to do that?

[00:23:51] That was something that really, and the sashes was something at the beginning that I was

[00:23:54] very uncomfortable with.

[00:23:56] I remember that.

[00:23:57] I remember that you really didn't like the mission statement.

[00:23:59] Oh, the mission statement.

[00:24:00] I consider it was like a prayer or something.

[00:24:05] Despite everything that they were saying about personal integrity and so on, people were

[00:24:09] asked to mouth this off even if you didn't believe it.

[00:24:13] And then I would be, I tried to come later so I wouldn't have to say the mission statement.

[00:24:18] This is where you and Nipi overlap.

[00:24:20] Nipi would avoid the mission statement at all costs.

[00:24:22] Wow, that's really interesting.

[00:24:24] Well, we'll have to talk more about that.

[00:24:26] Let's do it.

[00:24:27] Fire away.

[00:24:28] That's what this is.

[00:24:29] Well, because it's so important for me that everything I say, that my words and actions

[00:24:32] and belief match, and to be asked to say something when I don't believe it.

[00:24:37] And specifically to say, and I don't have the wording right because I'm trying to block

[00:24:42] the whole mission statement, but that you're going to spread his word or whatever to make

[00:24:47] it be as successful as possible.

[00:24:49] Do you remember the line that?

[00:24:50] Pledge to enroll as many people as possible within my success plan.

[00:24:55] I pledge to ethically...

[00:24:57] Shit, what was it?

[00:24:58] Oh, I forgot it.

[00:25:00] I pledge to ethically enroll as many people as possible within my success plan.

[00:25:03] I will always support the ethical something.

[00:25:06] People control the money, wealth and value and resources of the world.

[00:25:09] I will support the ethical control of these things.

[00:25:12] I pledge to enroll people in ESP and its mission for myself and to help make the world a better

[00:25:16] place to live.

[00:25:17] Thank you, Vanguard.

[00:25:18] You mean you weren't down with that, Ellen?

[00:25:22] No.

[00:25:23] It's so noble.

[00:25:24] Yeah, I just could not say it.

[00:25:26] It was bad enough that I was sitting there and don't get me wrong, I did admire how you

[00:25:32] threw yourself into it and became so successful within that.

[00:25:35] And I can see how it can happen.

[00:25:37] I was not being critical of you.

[00:25:41] I was just worried for you.

[00:25:42] Yeah, that's a great segue to that.

[00:25:44] I know the answer to this, obviously, but our listeners asked us to ask you, were you

[00:25:48] privy to the exit before it happened?

[00:25:50] How did you feel when I started to express doubts about NXIVM and ultimately decided

[00:25:55] to leave?

[00:25:57] Do you mean the moment when you, I think, yeah, what happened, you phoned me from New

[00:26:00] York and said that, I can't remember how much you revealed right away, but first of all,

[00:26:05] I was absolutely shocked and devastated and traumatized by the content and why you were

[00:26:12] leaving at that time.

[00:26:13] I was incredibly worried that you'd been through what you had, as any parent would be, when

[00:26:19] your child is harmed, there's nothing worse.

[00:26:22] I was beyond devastated and worried about you, and I was just so ready to welcome you

[00:26:28] back with open arms and thank goodness.

[00:26:30] And this is like the best news I have, that you were leaving.

[00:26:34] Not only leaving, but suddenly it was the most amazing experience.

[00:26:38] It was as if it wasn't just an inkling that something was wrong, suddenly you saw everything

[00:26:42] all at once.

[00:26:45] And yet your mind seemed to be in such great shape because as these ideas and templates

[00:26:50] were melting, it seems like, you were so intact in yourself.

[00:26:56] Your pure self was there and your intellect and your ability to figure out what was okay

[00:27:01] and what was not okay was not there.

[00:27:04] It's like this false self got created that wasn't you, it was somebody else's idea.

[00:27:09] It's terrifying actually.

[00:27:11] What's it like for you when I say that?

[00:27:13] No, I agree with you.

[00:27:14] I just remembering how you never said, I told you so, or you were just so relieved.

[00:27:20] Whereas there's been other incidents in the past where like, you told me not to park downtown

[00:27:27] because of the hockey games and then my car got burned in the riots.

[00:27:29] And you were like, I told you not to.

[00:27:31] And then I was like, mom, that's different.

[00:27:33] Traditional sort of mother-daughter dynamics.

[00:27:35] Here you just really welcomed me back, both of us back with open arms.

[00:27:38] Wouldn't you say, Nip?

[00:27:39] Yeah, there was none of that.

[00:27:41] That's not in you.

[00:27:42] It's not in your persona to treat people that way.

[00:27:45] Thanks for recognizing that, Nip.

[00:27:47] Well, it's easy to recognize.

[00:27:48] And we'll get more on that in a bit.

[00:27:51] Do you remember the moment she told you about being branded?

[00:27:53] I can't remember if you told me on the phone, but I remember when we dealt with it in Vancouver.

[00:27:58] When Sarah told me and you were in Vancouver at the same time, you were also talking to

[00:28:04] Frank on the Frank Report and were incredibly wired.

[00:28:08] And I was reading it for the first time in the Frank Report, I believe.

[00:28:13] And it was huge.

[00:28:15] Again, the biggest thing for me is my worry for you that you had been through that and

[00:28:21] just so happy that you were home and safe.

[00:28:25] And I was furious, absolutely furious at them and the position you were put in.

[00:28:31] You were put on a pedestal and you believed in it and you thought you were doing a good

[00:28:35] thing.

[00:28:36] And then the similar thing as I was talking about in that really minor incident of the

[00:28:40] EM where you're-

[00:28:43] Projection sourcing?

[00:28:44] Yeah.

[00:28:45] You're being told that you're this incredible teacher and leader, and at the same time they're

[00:28:52] manipulating you and undermining you and you're being used for other people's benefit.

[00:29:00] And I still get furious thinking about it.

[00:29:05] That's my daughter.

[00:29:06] That's my daughter who was harmed.

[00:29:08] I'm so sorry to put you through that, Mom.

[00:29:10] I'm so sorry you went through that, my darling.

[00:29:14] You came out so strong and true, your true self, and that's to have you.

[00:29:21] You were always there because we always stayed close.

[00:29:26] But you were back from, it's like the underworld.

[00:29:31] This is a question, Mom, from Camille R.

[00:29:34] Can you speak at all to the Nippy factor?

[00:29:38] When it comes to the NXIVM accident in particular, I can imagine you were relieved that Sarah

[00:29:42] had chosen a partner who would not only have her back in the moment, but was willing to

[00:29:44] burn it all down as a matter of justice.

[00:29:47] Was there any part of you that was worried that Nippy might act in a different way in

[00:29:50] that moment given the choices to blow the whistle or stay in?

[00:29:53] I wasn't thinking about it.

[00:29:55] I was so much in the moment and I was very impressed, Nippy, that you confronted Lauren

[00:30:01] in the way that you did.

[00:30:03] It was bullshit and you saw it for bullshit.

[00:30:05] You had so much had Sarah's back and you were completely clear about it all of a sudden.

[00:30:11] It must have been awful for you not knowing, not having this happen to her when you were

[00:30:16] right there and you really had her back.

[00:30:20] I think it gave her the strength to leave and go to Toronto.

[00:30:23] Was that at the same time?

[00:30:24] Am I right?

[00:30:25] Yeah, I don't really need a merit badge for doing the right thing.

[00:30:31] Anytime you get into the physical realm or anything, I think it warrants retaliation.

[00:30:38] Sarah actually asked me yesterday, what was it you asked me yesterday?

[00:30:41] Are you still mad?

[00:30:42] Am I still mad?

[00:30:43] I still think about 15 minutes with Keith Ranieri and what I would do to him.

[00:30:47] I don't talk about it that much and she was like, I'm surprised that's still in you.

[00:30:51] I'm like, you'd be surprised how much I think about it.

[00:30:53] I wake up sometimes and I wouldn't say fight or flight.

[00:30:57] That's a scratch I'll never be able to itch because I really want to beat the shit out

[00:31:00] of that guy, but he's getting his and I hope that he's having a miserable life in jail.

[00:31:05] And that's the only way I can keep my own kind of sanity around it because what I wanted

[00:31:10] to do and what I had to not do in order to go through the motions of justice was actually

[00:31:15] one of the more difficult things for me.

[00:31:17] But yeah, I think we made a lot of really good decisions in a short amount of time.

[00:31:20] No, I was just remembering around V-Week that last summer before it all came out and it was

[00:31:27] actually awful for me being there.

[00:31:30] And I remember it was V-Week that when I heard that he was having like an eight day later

[00:31:35] to be like 12 day birthday party for himself, I just thought that is completely bizarre

[00:31:40] in itself and I accidentally called him a megalomaniac.

[00:31:44] To me.

[00:31:45] To Sarah, yeah.

[00:31:46] Which I tried to refrain using that language because I knew it was just going to push her

[00:31:50] away.

[00:31:51] I'm just thinking that's when I picked up, I think my unconscious was picking up that

[00:31:55] something really weird was going on in that last V-Week.

[00:31:58] It was becoming really evident.

[00:32:01] And to me, there was something else going on there.

[00:32:05] I couldn't attend one of Keith's talks at night because I just thought it was such bullshit.

[00:32:11] It was just like, why are people lining up?

[00:32:13] This doesn't even make any sense.

[00:32:16] Is he doing it at midnight because that's when everyone's about to go to sleep?

[00:32:20] And then when Nancy did her little seminars, my eyes were closed almost the entire time

[00:32:25] because it didn't make any sense.

[00:32:27] These were these exercises that made no sense, but giving you the impression that there are

[00:32:32] these brilliant things and you probably just can't understand them because you don't have

[00:32:36] her wisdom.

[00:32:37] It's funny at that point we were skipping them.

[00:32:39] Yeah.

[00:32:40] By the end, Nippy and I were like, oh, Troy needs a nap.

[00:32:43] And then we'd all go nap and like miss.

[00:32:45] Yeah.

[00:32:46] V-Week definitely changed over 12 years, but you attended how many?

[00:32:49] Do you remember?

[00:32:50] I think three.

[00:32:51] Yeah, including the last one.

[00:32:53] And I think that's when you said to me that you thought that he was sleeping with some

[00:32:57] of the women and I just couldn't take it in.

[00:33:00] Do you remember how I responded when you said that?

[00:33:02] Yeah.

[00:33:03] What did you say?

[00:33:04] I don't remember.

[00:33:05] I just remember not thinking it was true.

[00:33:06] I just didn't think it was possible.

[00:33:07] Or maybe that it was their not your business, but I just picked up this incredible vibe

[00:33:12] from a few women who it turned out he was sleeping with.

[00:33:15] And we don't have to say their names here because some of them have since woken up.

[00:33:20] Not about them so much as I thought there's some weird sexual thing going on here.

[00:33:26] And it was awful for me because at that point, it was really obvious to all the in the leadership

[00:33:32] that I was very suspicious of things and a lot of them were really not talking to me.

[00:33:37] Do you think that's because you were a therapist?

[00:33:39] Yes, it could be.

[00:33:41] Yeah.

[00:33:42] And had you had any cult experience prior to NXIVM?

[00:33:46] Well, I was briefly introduced to one when I was 18.

[00:33:49] It's a personal development thing that turned out to be a cult.

[00:33:53] I was never called that but as soon as I realized I'd gotten out of it and living on the West

[00:34:00] Coast and having a practice for many years, you're going to run into people who've been

[00:34:05] in and out of these groups and even friends of mine.

[00:34:07] So I was familiar with them and knew about them and was attuned to them, but I was never

[00:34:14] in one myself.

[00:34:15] And did your perception of cults and coercive control change throughout our experience with NXIVM?

[00:34:20] I think the thing that's really, that I've really learned a lot about is the question

[00:34:24] of consent.

[00:34:26] And that is a very complicated question because I would have people saying to me, she consented

[00:34:32] to all of this.

[00:34:34] And it certainly was not my experience working with people or talking with people over the

[00:34:37] years that it's a very deep twisting of what consent means.

[00:34:44] I really have a lot of respect.

[00:34:46] You've worked with that, Sarah, because I don't think it was true consent.

[00:34:51] And yeah, my experience changes all the time, especially seeing what you two have been through

[00:34:55] and all the programs you've encountered.

[00:34:59] But I remember being fascinated and appalled with the Manson murders and Jim Jones.

[00:35:04] And I was incredibly knowledgeable about all those.

[00:35:09] For more background on what brought us here, check out my page-turning memoir.

[00:35:13] It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that bound my life.

[00:35:17] It's available on Amazon, Audible and at most bookstores.

[00:35:20] And if you want to see that story in streaming form, you can watch both seasons of The Vow

[00:35:24] on HBO.

[00:35:25] Sarah and I are big believers in reading the fine print these days because well, you

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[00:38:47] Now let's get back to a little bit Colti, shall we?

[00:38:51] This is from our listener, Margaret Mary Downey.

[00:38:53] Given your therapeutic training background, how do you think we could train therapists

[00:38:56] better when it comes to understanding Colts and cultic abuse?

[00:38:59] I did have some training in it and it was very valuable.

[00:39:03] I think there should be some training for therapists in this.

[00:39:07] The part that was valuable for me was when the people that I was working with or my teachers

[00:39:14] brought in somebody who had been in a cult and worked with them and showed how to work

[00:39:18] with someone who had been through a cult and got them to express their experience.

[00:39:24] They gave some really good guidelines about it.

[00:39:27] I remember I'm just hearing, if everybody is meant to be thinking the same way, then

[00:39:32] it's a cult.

[00:39:33] But a lot of different behaviors and being introduced to the personal experience of talking

[00:39:39] to people who've actually been through it and gone into one with all good intentions

[00:39:43] and then had a different perspective.

[00:39:45] A very hands-on personal experience.

[00:39:49] Our listener, Lindsay, wants to know, can you share any advice or insights you have gained

[00:39:52] from this experience that might help other families dealing with loved ones involved in

[00:39:56] similar groups?

[00:39:57] Well, I guess everybody is different and every family is different and every group is different.

[00:40:03] But for our particular family, we've always been so close.

[00:40:07] And I was determined that I was going to keep our connection and bond through all of it,

[00:40:13] that I would be there for you and support you as a human and yet be true to myself.

[00:40:19] If I thought something was off, I would say it, but not in a way that was going to push

[00:40:24] you away.

[00:40:25] So I could live with that.

[00:40:28] I was not that interested in, maybe I would do it differently and hopefully I'll never

[00:40:32] have another opportunity like that.

[00:40:36] But whether I would have tried to gather other people to help you get out of it, but I was

[00:40:42] concerned about interfering with your support systems and relationships by saying negative

[00:40:46] things to you about you to others.

[00:40:50] So it was a pretty isolated experience because yeah, isolating experience for me.

[00:40:56] One thing I'd say that I think you did really well is that you really kept the lines of

[00:41:02] communication open, even though you were judgmental.

[00:41:05] And I could feel that when you said things like megalomaniac, I knew that you weren't

[00:41:09] like totally on board with it.

[00:41:11] You weren't like around an axiom, but you weren't straight out, this is bad, this is

[00:41:15] a cult and you didn't push me away.

[00:41:17] So when I did figure it out, you were there for me and I could go to you and I felt safe

[00:41:21] to go to you.

[00:41:22] I didn't feel like that bridge had been burned, which I was really smart.

[00:41:24] I really could see how you would get drawn into it.

[00:41:27] And I found, tried to find ways to go to those V-Weeks so I could be with you guys and with

[00:41:32] Troy at that time when Ace wasn't born yet.

[00:41:34] I don't know if you remember this, but there was a time when I was out and you were relieved

[00:41:38] that I was out, but then I was on a new mission and that was the exposing NXIVM mission.

[00:41:43] And there was a time when we were deciding whether to be public in the New York Times

[00:41:46] and you weren't so keen on that.

[00:41:48] Do you remember that?

[00:41:50] Yes.

[00:41:51] How did you feel then?

[00:41:52] And do you still, I made the decision obviously, but how-

[00:41:55] I wasn't keen on that at the time.

[00:41:57] And you were like, are you sure you want to do this?

[00:41:59] And I felt very clear.

[00:42:00] And you've always been good at being, keep in mind, this is going to be out there, which

[00:42:06] I didn't really keep in mind.

[00:42:07] I just had to, I needed to stop the train wreck.

[00:42:10] But what was that like for you when we were, I was still very mission driven, but towards

[00:42:14] a different objective on the other side of it?

[00:42:16] It was a similar experience, but I was afraid for you for one thing.

[00:42:20] I didn't know what the repercussions would be.

[00:42:22] These people are dangerous as far as I'm concerned.

[00:42:24] I didn't know how you could be harmed either through lawsuits or anything physical.

[00:42:30] And I was very protective of you both, exposing yourselves and a lot of people were critical.

[00:42:37] I think that's changed over the time, but it was also in terms of our family, the timing

[00:42:42] was really difficult.

[00:42:44] Obviously you had to go with what you had to do with.

[00:42:46] I mean, I personally am so private and it was interesting when you guys wanted to be

[00:42:51] especially, well, say you Sarah, wanted to be so public about this.

[00:42:56] And personally, the way I was traumatized, I could not even stand to see the picture

[00:43:02] of the brand.

[00:43:03] It was hard to see it on your book cover.

[00:43:05] It was incredibly hard to see it on the front page of the New York Times and to know that

[00:43:10] everybody had seen this wound.

[00:43:12] I agree with you.

[00:43:13] I wish I had a different cover, but I don't know if I ever told you that the publisher

[00:43:17] didn't give me a choice.

[00:43:18] Oh really?

[00:43:19] No, I didn't know that.

[00:43:20] Yeah.

[00:43:21] I was looking for a different picture.

[00:43:22] Speaking of which, one of our listeners wants to know.

[00:43:25] Did you read Sarah's memoir?

[00:43:27] Yes, I definitely did.

[00:43:29] I think I was overseas somewhere and I read, I listened to it on the audio book.

[00:43:33] It was amazing.

[00:43:34] I was so emotional.

[00:43:35] You also helped write it.

[00:43:36] Yeah.

[00:43:37] And hold Ace while I was writing it.

[00:43:38] That's right.

[00:43:39] That was fun.

[00:43:40] Yeah.

[00:43:41] I was deeply involved in the writing.

[00:43:43] And who's your favorite Nexi member other than us and why?

[00:43:46] I have to ask.

[00:43:47] Is there anyone that you liked?

[00:43:48] Allie.

[00:43:49] Oh yeah, Allie was like your friend.

[00:43:50] People who were your friends before, who I had relationships with, especially Allie and

[00:43:55] Karen.

[00:43:56] I always found her easy to relate to and have had experience with her since.

[00:44:01] And for those who don't know who Allie is, I was her bridesmaid.

[00:44:04] She was my bridesmaid and she was at most of Troy's birth.

[00:44:08] She didn't stay for all 36 hours of it.

[00:44:11] She was there for the first 30 hours.

[00:44:13] And she took a nap and missed the big part of the show, but-

[00:44:16] I missed it?

[00:44:17] No, Allie.

[00:44:18] Oh, I see.

[00:44:19] That's explaining who Allie is.

[00:44:20] You were there.

[00:44:21] Yeah.

[00:44:22] Allie is also Paige in my book and the first person I called when I realized another round

[00:44:25] of branding sessions were going to go on and the first person I was really honest with

[00:44:29] about what was happening.

[00:44:30] And we're planning on having her on the podcast if and when she is ready one day.

[00:44:35] Who did you loathe the most?

[00:44:37] I just don't feel like that's something I-

[00:44:38] That's fine.

[00:44:39] Want to go into.

[00:44:41] But one of the things that was the hardest and most confusing for me was that these people

[00:44:46] seem to be lovely, interesting people.

[00:44:49] But when you start talking, when I started talking to them, they had absolutely no interest

[00:44:53] in me, what I was doing, and only wanted to talk about the cult.

[00:44:59] So you couldn't actually have a conversation or anything meaningful with these people.

[00:45:03] Partly, I think because you're a therapist and we've been programmed to believe that

[00:45:07] your work had zero value.

[00:45:08] So don't take that too personally, mom.

[00:45:10] Yeah.

[00:45:11] You think so?

[00:45:12] Yeah.

[00:45:13] That took a while to unwind, right?

[00:45:15] For a lot of people that therapy is bullshit.

[00:45:17] But why do you think they really said that about therapy being bullshit?

[00:45:21] It was a threat to their dogma.

[00:45:23] Yeah, I think so.

[00:45:25] That they could be able to see through what they were doing, which actually was true.

[00:45:29] I didn't see all of it that they were doing.

[00:45:31] That would be impossible.

[00:45:32] Here's a question.

[00:45:34] What other things could you see me or us doing now that we're free and clear of NXIVM?

[00:45:38] Adam Grant, who is all about organizational psychology, I was just on his podcast, mom,

[00:45:43] suggested I should get my PhD.

[00:45:44] Any ideas from your professional and personal point of view as a proud mom and therapist

[00:45:48] who specializes in professional development?

[00:45:50] I don't think that's a bad idea.

[00:45:52] You're incredibly knowledgeable, both of you, about this now.

[00:45:55] And that would give you another level to explore.

[00:45:58] Like the striped path?

[00:46:00] A bit like the striped path.

[00:46:02] I think going and studying at a university is so different, although I don't want you

[00:46:07] to be put off learning.

[00:46:09] If you did do that, to really make sure it's people that you can really learn from and

[00:46:12] that you're studying all different points of view, which you should in a really good

[00:46:17] graduate program.

[00:46:18] If you don't decide to do that, you should be studying many different modalities and

[00:46:22] not just one.

[00:46:23] And that's the problem with this one.

[00:46:25] One of the things I really hated was saying that you're getting a practical MBA.

[00:46:30] That was the biggest load of shit.

[00:46:32] Practical MBA through the striped path that you'll never graduate from.

[00:46:36] You'll never get your MBA.

[00:46:37] Yeah, I think you could actually, you're a great business person.

[00:46:40] You could get an MBA.

[00:46:41] You were always good at coming up with backup ideas.

[00:46:43] When I was an actress, my mom thought I should do birthday parties, children's birthday parties,

[00:46:47] and also do the photos because I was a photographer.

[00:46:50] So my mom was always very creative.

[00:46:52] You really appreciated that at the time.

[00:46:54] A Disney princess at birthday parties was my...

[00:46:56] I should do that now.

[00:46:58] I don't think I'm too old for that.

[00:47:00] Thank you.

[00:47:01] Thanks for that.

[00:47:02] I didn't suggest going back to school.

[00:47:03] It's up to you.

[00:47:04] And a last note from a listener, Anna.

[00:47:06] Not a question, but a thank you.

[00:47:08] Thanks for loving Sarah through her whole experience and being part of the reason she

[00:47:11] got out.

[00:47:12] The world needs her and needs more parents like you who meeting cultic involvement with

[00:47:15] empathy instead of shame.

[00:47:16] Bravo to you.

[00:47:17] And I second that.

[00:47:18] Oh, one more question from our listener, Vivian, who wants to know, how are you doing?

[00:47:25] She writes, I remember listening to the CBC podcast with Josh Block and how he explained

[00:47:29] that you weren't ready to have your name out there.

[00:47:31] Do you still feel that way?

[00:47:33] And how are you now with this whole debacle, aka shit show, my words?

[00:47:38] I think I'm still recovering myself.

[00:47:41] It's this huge thing for me to be there for Sarah and Nippy and their family and their

[00:47:47] boys.

[00:47:48] And it's an honor and something that I can't tell you that means the most to me is to be

[00:47:54] with you on this part of your journey as well.

[00:47:56] I was there through the dark part and I want to be there and how happy I am as much as I'm

[00:48:01] able to through the light part.

[00:48:03] You're probably our greatest source of support, mom, both emotionally, physically with the

[00:48:09] kids and at times financially.

[00:48:13] Thank you for supporting us and loving us through it all.

[00:48:17] It's been a real blessing.

[00:48:18] I know a lot of people left with us that could not go back to their parents because there

[00:48:23] was too much shame in their parents saying, you know, just saying, I told you and how

[00:48:29] could you have been so stupid or things like that?

[00:48:31] And there's a very big difference between that you shouldn't leave your computer in

[00:48:37] your car and that you shouldn't join a cult.

[00:48:40] And I'm also just aware that it really was your journey.

[00:48:44] The only thing is that my journey then got caught up in that.

[00:48:46] So I'm still figuring out where my path is in all of this.

[00:48:51] It's just such a big focus to be there, be a parent and a guide in some ways and a support.

[00:49:00] What do you think the biggest thing that's been helpful in your healing is?

[00:49:04] I think it's really great that I can now talk about it to friends and family, support, friendship,

[00:49:11] my relationship with my family, especially all of you, just seeing how it evolved and

[00:49:17] coming from a very different place.

[00:49:20] When you go through a dark time with someone that's a very profound experience in life,

[00:49:26] it's terrifying, but it's also a privilege.

[00:49:30] And we've talked about light in the darkness and you really are that, Sarah.

[00:49:34] And I had to really work on keeping my light shining through this because at times when

[00:49:39] it was really scary.

[00:49:40] I love you so much.

[00:49:42] I love you too.

[00:49:43] I'm so proud of you, both of you, what you've done from this experience that you're helping

[00:49:47] so many other people because we do make mistakes in life, go down the wrong path that we regret.

[00:49:55] I've done that and I've learned from that.

[00:49:59] And it's a very human thing.

[00:50:00] Well, your empathy and support means the world to us both.

[00:50:03] We love you very much.

[00:50:05] Thanks for agreeing to do our podcast.

[00:50:07] This might be the banger.

[00:50:08] You have to explain what that is.

[00:50:10] Yeah, when something's great and hip, it's a banger.

[00:50:14] Isn't it also a kind of British sausage?

[00:50:17] It might be.

[00:50:18] I don't know.

[00:50:19] I don't understand that aspect of it, but it's fair to say Ellen gave us a banger.

[00:50:25] It's not a word for her generation.

[00:50:27] It is now.

[00:50:28] It's bangers and mash.

[00:50:29] People are asking, what have you learned about this?

[00:50:32] What have you gotten out of this?

[00:50:34] Ellen got a banger.

[00:50:35] No?

[00:50:36] No.

[00:50:37] It's not fair.

[00:50:38] All right.

[00:50:39] I can't agree when I don't know what it is.

[00:50:41] Listen, when we post this on Instagram, you're going to wear our swag and all that stuff.

[00:50:44] We're going to tag you and all that stuff.

[00:50:47] Let's try this.

[00:50:48] Hey, mom, are you going to look drippy drip in the bling?

[00:50:51] I do know what bling is, but don't give me any sashes, please.

[00:50:54] Do you know what drip is?

[00:50:55] No.

[00:50:56] There's a lot of words here that we just got to catch my mom up on.

[00:50:59] Oh, this has been so fun.

[00:51:01] It's very healing.

[00:51:02] It's just fantastic.

[00:51:03] It's really healing.

[00:51:05] Give people context on that?

[00:51:09] Yeah.

[00:51:11] Ellen, I'm going to tease you a little bit in case you haven't noticed.

[00:51:14] Just for context, Ellen always has these random things when we're talking.

[00:51:17] She's like, it's just fantastic.

[00:51:18] It's very special.

[00:51:19] Remember when Troy was born?

[00:51:20] It was a magical moment.

[00:51:21] And then when we're talking about something, she'll be like...

[00:51:22] I think that they're a bit more sincere than that.

[00:51:23] It's hard to tell.

[00:51:24] And she's like, wow, that was very healing.

[00:51:25] I'm like, what are you talking about?

[00:51:26] We're just having a conversation.

[00:51:27] Well, when Troy was born was one of the highlights of my life.

[00:51:28] My favorite part about...

[00:51:29] Do you remember when Troy was born?

[00:51:30] My mom was like, I'm going to tease you a little bit in case you haven't noticed.

[00:51:31] I'm like, what?

[00:51:32] I was like, I don't know.

[00:51:33] I'm like, do I remember?

[00:51:34] I was fucking there.

[00:51:35] I'm sure you do remember.

[00:51:36] We went through it together, all of us, and it was amazing.

[00:51:37] Yeah, mom was there when Troy was born.

[00:51:38] I was also a banger.

[00:51:39] No pun intended.

[00:51:40] Anyway, all right, mom.

[00:51:41] Thanks, everyone.

[00:51:42] Thanks for listening.

[00:51:43] And do let us know what you thought.

[00:51:44] Hit us up on Instagram.

[00:51:45] Until then, call your moms, okay?

[00:51:46] Moms are precious.

[00:51:47] And we'll see you next time.

[00:51:48] Bye.

[00:51:49] Bye.

[00:51:50] Bye.

[00:51:51] Bye.

[00:51:52] Bye.

[00:51:53] Bye.

[00:51:54] Bye.

[00:51:55] Bye.

[00:51:56] Bye.

[00:51:57] Bye.

[00:51:58] Bye.

[00:51:59] Bye.

[00:52:00] Bye.

[00:52:01] And I hope that you guys have a wonderful night.

[00:52:02] And we'll see you next time.

[00:52:03] Peace.

[00:52:04] Peace.

[00:52:05] Peace.

[00:52:06] Peace.

[00:52:07] Okay, moms are precious.

[00:52:08] Moms are the best, and they take a lot of shit.

[00:52:09] They've taken a lot of shit, mom.

[00:52:10] And I hope that you feel like this episode maybe mends some of those wounds if they're

[00:52:12] still open.

[00:52:13] Because we love you, and we appreciate you, and we'll just acknowledge publicly, since

[00:52:17] this will be aired to a lot of people, that my mom knew it first.

[00:52:21] My mom saw it first.

[00:52:23] She knows the best.

[00:52:25] She's very wise, and we honor her.

[00:52:27] We love you.

[00:52:28] We value you, Нippy, come on, right?

[00:52:29] Yeah.

[00:52:30] We acknowledge you.

[00:52:31] What's the thing?

[00:52:32] I value, I acknowledge you.

[00:52:33] Yeah, I got this from a Curb Your Enthusiasm.

[00:52:37] We see you, we acknowledge you.

[00:52:38] I love you, mom.

[00:52:39] Thank you, love you too so much.

[00:52:41] Bubbs.

[00:52:44] Like what you hear, do ya?

[00:52:45] Give us a rating, a review and subscribe on iTunes.

[00:52:48] Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content

[00:52:51] out there.

[00:52:52] Smash that subscribe button.

[00:52:53] You know you want to.

[00:52:58] Thanks for listening everyone.

[00:52:59] We hope you liked that episode with Sarah's mom.

[00:53:01] It was a real banger, I thought.

[00:53:03] A banger?

[00:53:04] You can't reserve that.

[00:53:06] For actual banger.

[00:53:07] For actual, or just bangers

[00:53:09] and your mom in the same sentence don't work for me.

[00:53:12] It was a long time coming.

[00:53:13] Again.

[00:53:14] It's very healing.

[00:53:14] It was very healing.

[00:53:15] I think it was necessary.

[00:53:17] Can't heal the rupture.

[00:53:17] And mom, I love you and I'm so sorry

[00:53:20] that you went through all that.

[00:53:21] It must have been terribly difficult

[00:53:23] but as fortified by all the cult experts

[00:53:25] we've since talked to you,

[00:53:26] I think you did the right thing.

[00:53:27] Yeah, you did well.

[00:53:28] Yeah, you hung in there.

[00:53:29] We appreciate that.

[00:53:30] And so supportive, like so supportive from the beginning.

[00:53:33] So again, dear listeners,

[00:53:34] this has been a replay of a Patreon episode

[00:53:36] that we dropped earlier this year and we're excited.

[00:53:39] Enough about Patreon.

[00:53:40] We've really shaken it up.

[00:53:41] We are excited because we've really shaken up

[00:53:43] how we do Patreon to give everyone early access

[00:53:45] for less money.

[00:53:46] Now you get access to all of our bonus episodes

[00:53:49] every month for just five bucks.

[00:53:51] That's four a month.

[00:53:52] Call your moms.

[00:53:53] Call your mom.

[00:53:54] Get your four episodes direct to you, ad free every month.

[00:53:57] Thank you for loving us through this podcast gig.

[00:53:59] We appreciate you all.

[00:54:00] Call your moms.

[00:54:01] We'll be back soon with more episodes.

[00:54:03] Happy Mother's Day and call your mom.

[00:54:06] Call your mom.

[00:54:07] Call your mom if you're in Canada.

[00:54:08] Mom, I love you mom.

[00:54:09] Bye mom.

[00:54:10] Bye mom.

[00:54:11] ♪ Sinking down to the depths of the ocean ♪

[00:54:15] ♪ I'm hanging on to the wind of my love ♪

[00:54:19] ♪ If I let go of it all I could leave but alone ♪

[00:54:28] Thanks for listening everyone.

[00:54:30] We're heading over to patreon.com

[00:54:32] slash a littlebitculti now to discuss this episode.

[00:54:35] In the meantime, dear listener, please remember

[00:54:37] this podcast is solely for general informational,

[00:54:40] educational and entertainment purposes.

[00:54:43] It's not intended as a substitute for real medical,

[00:54:46] legal or therapeutic advice.

[00:54:48] For cult recovery resources

[00:54:49] and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world,

[00:54:52] check out a littlebitculti.com slash culty resources

[00:54:55] and don't miss Sarah's Ted talk called

[00:54:57] How Cult Literate Are You?

[00:55:00] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production,

[00:55:03] executive produced by Sarah Edmondson

[00:55:04] and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration

[00:55:06] with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound

[00:55:09] and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard

[00:55:12] Jess Temple Tardy.

[00:55:13] And our theme song Cultivated is by John Bryant.