Patreon Unlocked: Tia Levings on Escaping Tradlife

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[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_08]: This podcast is for informational purposes only

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_08]: and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_08]: The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_08]: the official policy or position of the podcast

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_08]: and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization,

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_08]: business, individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm Anthony, air quotes, Nippy Ames.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_08]: And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_08]: A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_06]: for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty,

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_06]: you're already prime recruitment material.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_08]: You might even already be in a cult.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Oops. You better keep listening to find out.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_06]: All right, we're going to try something a little different this week.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_08]: How about a welcome back first?

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome back, everyone.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to try something a little different this week.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_08]: We know we've mentioned Patreon occasionally.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Just a little bit.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Patreon.com slash A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_08]: But we feel like we should talk about it more because not only is it

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_08]: essential in keeping this podcast going,

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_08]: thank you to those who are already supporting us there.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_08]: But it is also where some of our best interviews live.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like a live jam session with our guests.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Sometimes guests have already been on.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, think of it as a little bit culty unplugged.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Like a little more loose.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_08]: A little less scripted.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_06]: We unplug our electrics.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_06]: We bust out the acoustic.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_08]: A little bit like Eric Clapton.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, there you go.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Except Tia Levings.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you remember Tia Levings?

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I hope so.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_08]: One of our favorite people in the whole world.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_08]: One of our first times we ever got to interview somebody in person.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_08]: It was a two-parter that we recorded last year live here in Atlanta.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Please go back and check it out.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_08]: But during that interview, we mostly spoke about her role in the docu-series,

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Shiny Happy People.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_06]: That's the one about the reality TV mega family, The Duggars.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_08]: And everyone's all excited about The Duggars and Shiny Happy People.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_08]: But we couldn't really get into her story and the book

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_08]: because it wasn't out yet.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_08]: So we brought Tia back to do a live Patreon episode

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_08]: because she's just released her book, A Well-Trained Wife.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_08]: An incredibly beautiful written memoir about her journey

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_08]: to save herself and her family from the bounds of Christian fundamentalism.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_06]: And golf clap, everybody.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_06]: It just hit the New York Times bestseller list officially.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_06]: And we couldn't be more proud of her and her work.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_08]: So this week, we're bringing you an exclusive sample

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_08]: of our follow up chat with Tia Levings that we just did on Zoom.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_06]: We get the details of her story, the details that we couldn't get last time

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_06]: because they were in the book and talk with her about what it's like

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_06]: publishing one of the most successful books of the summer.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_08]: So please give it a listen.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_08]: And if you want more live episodes like this one

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_08]: and to participate in our interviews while they're happening,

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_08]: go to patreon.com slash a little bit culty and subscribe today.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Here's our conversation with Tia Levings.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Enjoy.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, how are you?

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Good.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Look at your beautiful book in the background.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_08]: She's so pretty.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_08]: She's so pretty.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_08]: She really is.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_08]: This is this is like one of the prettiest books that I've ever held in my hands.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Like we've got to.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, thump it.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_06]: I love the thumb.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_08]: It's got some.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_06]: We had our pillows under our Tia Levings books.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, it's just like the color.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Did you help design it or does someone else do it?

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, McMillan did it all.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't have anything.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I got to say I like it.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_04]: That's what happened.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, sounds familiar.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_08]: We got we went through that too, except I didn't like mine.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I got to say I'm not sure.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure about that.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_08]: They're like, that's bad.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_08]: It's what this one or this one.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's their job to sell.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_04]: So I acquiesced.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_08]: How are you doing with this exciting?

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Is it this is like pub week right now, right?

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_08]: This is yeah.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And well, no, it was the sixth, but yesterday was in the paper.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_04]: So in the New York Times, the actual print edition.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_04]: So I didn't know they announced that like 10, 10 days before it goes to print.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: So, I mean, all this all the online splash was already already happened.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_04]: But the print stuff is yesterday.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I mean, it's every day is a surprise.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I call it every day.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a new thing.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_08]: How has that felt?

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_08]: How has that felt to be a New York Times bestseller?

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Isn't that the dream right there?

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_04]: It is. It is on my vision board.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And now I get to put it on my victory board.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm super stoked about that.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And so there's a rightness to the feeling because I wanted this

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and I work towards it and manifested it that way.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_04]: So that part feels good.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: It's still getting some used to like getting used to saying

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_04]: New York Times bestselling author, because you get to say that forever,

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_04]: no matter how many weeks you stay on the list.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_08]: So yeah, yeah.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Or what your number is.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's that's fun.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's a lot of incredible thing for your resume.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_08]: And also, you don't even even if you never wrote ever again,

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_08]: which we know that's not already not the case.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I have a book due.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_04]: It's coming out in twenty twenty five.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So I have I have.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Are you traveling to get interviewed?

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Have you done any of that?

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_06]: No, I haven't.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_04]: That's that's one of the little ironies of this.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone keeps asking if I'm like going to go on tour.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And they were very specific.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_04]: They didn't want me to go on tour.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's actually it's like I keep questioning it.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, should I? Why?

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Readers expect it?

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's a lot of outgo for the author and most of the attendees,

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_04]: if the events are well attended at all, most of the attendees

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_04]: already bought the book.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's not a great return is from their standpoint,

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_04]: from a sales standpoint.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I think relationally, I would have a good return.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's less intrusive ways to achieve that.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_04]: So for now, that's what we're doing.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that could change with The New York Times.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that could change.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_04]: But that's been the plan going forward so far.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Podcasts, I think, to have kind of changed it as well.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I think you're reaching just as many of my more through podcasts,

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I imagine. Right from home.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And I've got a really from home.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Which makes me, you know, able to do the rest of the work that I do.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And my social platform takes it's a full time job.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_08]: So that's what we were.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Nippy and I were just brainstorming, assuming this goes great,

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_08]: which I think it will, that we could re-release

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_08]: maybe the best parts of our original interview with you.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, yeah.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Right? We did parts one and two,

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_08]: which was one of our favorite interviews of all time.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_06]: It was also in person.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Because it was in person.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_08]: But I remember it being hard because your book hadn't come out yet

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_08]: and we were kind of dancing around certain plot points.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_08]: And maybe it'll be...

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah. And maybe we could have released the best of that.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_08]: And then this conversation like, where is she now?

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, how is it going since you published?

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Because that book was so...

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, obviously everyone knows that I loved it.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_08]: I've been talking about it nonstop and of course,

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_08]: blurbed it on the back.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you, by the way, for including me in your blurb list.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Again, I don't get to see that kind of stuff, but yeah.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, somebody approved it.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. I mean, I did approve it.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_08]: So, yeah, for those who are just sort of like shooting the shit

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_08]: while we waited for people to jump on,

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just going to give a little...

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_08]: The most updated bio we just got from your team.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Tia Levings is the, I want to cry, I'm so proud,

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_08]: New York Times bestselling author of A Well-Trained Wife.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_08]: For a memoir of escape from Christian patriarchy,

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_08]: she writes about the realities of...

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm like having trouble seeing through my happy tears.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_08]: She writes about the realities of Christian fundamentalism,

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_08]: evangelical patriarchy and religious trauma

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_08]: and is quoted in Salon and Huffington Post and Newsweek.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_08]: She also appeared in the hit Amazon docu-series,

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Shiny Happy People.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Based in Jacksonville, Florida,

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_08]: she's a mom to four incredible adults

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_08]: and likes to travel, hike, paint and daydream.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Find her on social media at Tia Levings writer.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Her second book, The Soul of Healing,

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_08]: which you want to hear about,

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_08]: releases with St. Martin Essentials in 2025.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_08]: So let me welcome you, my...

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_07]: She was on a little bit culty.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_08]: And she was on a little bit culty a couple of years ago.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_08]: I want to welcome you, Tia Levings,

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_08]: my artist, writer, mother, hiker friend to a little bit culty.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Hi. Welcome.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Hi. Thank you for having me.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Tell us what it's like to be in this world right now.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_08]: What's it feel like to publish?

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_08]: What's the response been?

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Give us a little update of what's happened

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_08]: since you were on a little bit culty,

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_08]: which is our last chat, I guess.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I think it was at almost two years ago.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I feel like it was pretty early in the journey

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_04]: or maybe it was last year.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Just last year. I don't know.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_08]: My sense of time is a bit warped.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_04]: That's the point.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_04]: The point is that time is warped.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just here now.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_07]: So it would have been last year.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, last year.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Last year. Okay.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. I just got back from Europe probably.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. I think time is loosey goosey.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I just try to be present in each moment.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_04]: As I was sharing a few minutes ago,

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_04]: there's a big piece of this that's very affirming

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_04]: because I knew when I set out to write this book

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_04]: almost a decade ago, over a decade ago,

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_04]: that I had a story that was timely

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_04]: and relevant to a wider audience.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I wanted it to be distributed

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_04]: to the widest audience possible.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And I hoped and prayed that it would be at the right time

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_04]: like in the cultural conversation,

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_04]: which just seems to be becoming more and more perfect.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I couldn't have known that the Tradwives

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_04]: would be a phenomenon now.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I couldn't imagine where we would be politically.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't imagine that Mike Johnson

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_04]: would be speaker of the house

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_04]: or that so much of the world that I came from

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_04]: and ran from is actually in our government.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_04]: So the timeliness is there

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_04]: and the letters that I get,

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_04]: the reviews that I get and the letters that say me too

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_04]: or this brought up familiar things

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_04]: or I didn't realize I was on the same track

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_04]: and with one small tweak could have had your same story.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_04]: That is all super affirming

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_04]: that I made the right choice.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_04]: This was a good decision.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_04]: It was worth all the sacrifice it took to get here

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_04]: for the big five publisher for the whole process.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_04]: When you write a book and then you bring it to press,

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_04]: you have a lot of options for how you wanna do that.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_04]: There are a lot of opportunities

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and we have more ways to publish a book now

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_04]: than we have ever had.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And I chose this with that intention

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_04]: and it's paying off that way with reader support.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's stoked, I'm stoked.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I wake up stoked, happy, excited, grateful.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_08]: I am so grateful as well.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_08]: But Nipi and I were just rereading some parts

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_08]: to refresh certain elements of your story.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_08]: And I realized that since interviewing you,

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_08]: even like for me as a friend and someone in the space,

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_08]: like A, I had not even heard of Tradwife.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_08]: Like obviously that's a new thing.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I'm not so anything it's a new on the zeitgeist,

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_08]: I guess, yeah.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Like it's a newer like ballerina farm

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_08]: and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_08]: That wasn't, I guess,

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_08]: and I've said this many times on the podcast,

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_08]: every time I do an episode

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_08]: and I feel like Nipi and I are like,

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_08]: is this really happening?

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Like this is happening.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And like, especially with your book

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_08]: when we're very similar ages

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_08]: and you're referencing Debbie Gibson

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_08]: and Fleetwood Mac and flowers in the attic

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_08]: and Jaws and ET and Greece and Princess Bride

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_08]: and all these things that I grew up with too.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm like, yet your life is so drastically different.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Right?

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Like it's so diametrically opposed.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_08]: But since I spoke to you last

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_08]: and now I feel like I've learned so much.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_08]: I've also been to Florida and Jacksonville since then

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_08]: and I can like picture and smell these places

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_08]: that you're talking about.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_08]: But so much has happened.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_08]: What's that like to ride that?

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's kind of similar to us

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_08]: like coming out after the hashtag Me Too.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_08]: It was like the perfect timing.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_08]: This is the perfect timing for your book.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Tell us more.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I put those cultural references

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_04]: and things in there as sensory anchors on purpose.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And they're working.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_04]: People are relating to the atmosphere

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_04]: that was influencing that development

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_04]: and growth and change and time.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think they're really important to me

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_04]: as a character in the story, as the narrator.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I was influenced by hurricanes and secular music

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and church culture and all those things

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_04]: came together to form me.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So I wanted my reader to feel like

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_04]: they were in that moment with me,

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_04]: which has been reflected in the feedback.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_04]: They do feel like they're on the journey with me

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and they feel inside the scenes

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_04]: and that's impacting them on a healing level,

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_04]: on a trauma soul identification level,

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_04]: which makes this different than a standard memoir

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_04]: or just the story of something that happened to me.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I really want there to be that discovery process

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_04]: and here for it for the conversation.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I didn't just write a book

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_04]: that I thought would sell well.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I think this is an important conversation to have

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_04]: as a traumatized generation.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, I'm grateful.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just grateful that everything has opened up

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_04]: that this is my full-time job,

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_04]: which is not to say that it necessarily is lucrative

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_04]: and to put my heart and soul into it

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and show up every single day with passion and empathy

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and do the things that other people might say,

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_04]: oh, I can't do that.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_04]: For example, like the way I show up online

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_04]: for social media, that's not everybody's cup of tea,

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_04]: but it's part of the work for me.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So to put myself out there this way,

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_04]: especially as somebody who didn't go to college,

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have an external education.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I used to stutter.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not good on stage.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I used to not be able to call for pizza.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Like that was how I didn't speak to people.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_04]: All of this puts myself out there

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and then I'm affirmed with this was a good decision.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_04]: This is helping people.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Grateful.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Have you had any pushback?

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Any haters?

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Very little and very little.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Knock on wood.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_04]: That's just the push.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to write that in,

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_04]: but I don't receive a lot of pushback, negative feedback.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_04]: There's like, you know,

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_04]: there's the expected troll here and there.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Goodreads comes with its own little can of worms.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_04]: People who are like make it their daily output

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_04]: to go crap on people's books.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Like there's little things like that,

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_04]: but I don't engage with that.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I have people send me the reviews they want me to read.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's fine.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's fine.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And safety has been fine and yeah.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Good.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, we have lots of questions since I read the book,

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_08]: because obviously it wasn't in this format

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_08]: when you gave it to me to read.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Did you change some things?

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Like, was it quite different or was it substantial?

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_04]: From a year ago, essentially the same.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_04]: It probably went through its line and copy edit stages.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Just like in the publishing process,

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_04]: there was a big issue in that they first assigned

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_04]: a line editor that didn't know anything

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_04]: about my background or that world or anything like that.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And they hacked it and argued with me in the margin notes

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_04]: about assault and mindset.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And if I ever had a troll on my shoulder,

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_04]: this editor took that position.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And it was an exercise in speaking up for myself

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_04]: with my team and saying,

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not even gonna touch this document

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_04]: because you should never argue with a survivor

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_04]: about their assault.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And they responded very quickly.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_04]: They reassigned it.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_04]: It was handled.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_04]: So I do think the draft that you had was pretty much the same,

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_04]: except for grammatical changes and little things.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if I'd been through the legal read yet.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_04]: The legal read was a four-day extensive.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_04]: They assigned a big New York team to go line by line

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_04]: after everything.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_04]: If there's a movie scene,

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I had to rewatch it and make sure it was verified.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_04]: If there's a quote, every single thing

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_04]: was one of the most grueling parts of bringing it to press.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Definitely not the fun part.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_08]: The reason I asked is that when I reread the end,

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_08]: there's just things like,

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_08]: maybe I didn't know the references

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_08]: because I was early on in our

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Christian fundamentalist understanding.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_08]: And hearing that Josh Harris,

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_08]: who wrote the books about purity culture, recanted.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_08]: That was news to me.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Can you tell us a little bit?

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he has extensively recanted.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And I have to say, respect for that.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_04]: He stopped print of his books.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_04]: He created a counter documentary addressing his damage.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_04]: He has done what he can do as a,

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_04]: well, I say he's a victim.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_04]: He does not promote himself as a victim,

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_04]: but he was barely,

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I think still a teenager when he wrote

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I Kissed Dating Goodbye.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_04]: He was definitely a vehicle of his parents.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And my position empathy towards him is

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_04]: that he was just as manipulated as the rest of us.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And one of the things high control religion does

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_04]: in this tradition especially,

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_04]: is it creates complicity very quickly

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_04]: so that you are tied and can't go anywhere

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_04]: because you too are guilty

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_04]: and you are now the perpetrator.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And I just have some compassion on young Josh.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_04]: He's done a lot as an adult to try

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and at least call out what was wrong about his work.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_08]: This podcast certainly would not be happening

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_08]: without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Are you with us?

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Come find us over on Patreon at patreon.com

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_08]: slash a little bit culty for bonus episodes,

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_08]: ad free and exclusive content

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_08]: and the occasional zoom with fan favorites

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_08]: from our past episodes,

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Q and A's and all sorts of goodies.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_08]: It's fun over there people.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Kia ora, I'm Anke Richter

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: who wrote the bestseller Cult Trip

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm bringing you an exciting event.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Get ready for D-Cult 2024

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: the first cult awareness conference in New Zealand

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: happening in Christchurch this October.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you worried about a friend or family member

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: who's in a group that may be causing them harm

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: or do you have your own story?

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Then join us for a weekend with experts

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: from around the world

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: with those who've left culty groups

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: can share their experiences

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and meet professionals who can help them.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Head to our website, decult.net for all the info.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Behind every door at Houston Methodist

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: you know what to expect, expertise.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether it's life-saving brain surgery,

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: your 3D mammogram that catches breast cancer sooner

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: or orthopedic specialists

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: helping you feel stronger than ever

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: with hundreds of doors across Houston

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you can get expert care everywhere.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the difference between practicing medicine

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and leading it.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Houston Methodist, leading medicine.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_08]: You've heard from our sponsors

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_08]: now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we?

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_08]: That's great.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, I've got some questions here

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_08]: but first a comment

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_08]: and this is so cool from Yara

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_08]: not a question but went to Audible to get your book

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_08]: and was already up as the first one recommended.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_08]: So that's so cool.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_08]: I love hearing that.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_04]: So fun fact, I can tell you about the Audible

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_04]: it's breaking the publisher's minds right now

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_04]: because it is outperforming the hardcover three to one.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't understand that

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_04]: because it's my first time ever recording a book

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_04]: but people love the audio.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_08]: I was gonna text you

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_08]: well, I've read it on the computer

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_08]: and then I'd listen to it just now to prep for this.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_08]: You did such a great job.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it was really good.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_08]: This is like what I do for a living

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_08]: as you know, voiceover and you really did

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_08]: it was just so well read.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_08]: It was just, you were so present

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_08]: and it was just like, I was blown away.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_04]: They give you a really great director

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and I had someone in my ear the whole time

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and we paced ourselves through the harder parts

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_04]: but I got to say it the way that I wrote it

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_04]: and I think that was important for my healing process.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, really grateful I got to do that.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Great and a note here from Eric

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_08]: who by the way did all those fun promos for us

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_08]: that you were appreciating.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you, Eric for helping us spread the word about this.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Eric asks, aside from your own,

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_08]: what's your favorite book, blog

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_08]: or other resource covering fundamentalism

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_08]: that was released?

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_04]: No, that's not fair, Eric, no.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_04]: That is a child asking who your favorite child is.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I don't pick favorites for that reason.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I love this.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, some of your favorites.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Some of my favorites, well, I'm on it.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_04]: That's one.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I like everybody that I've interviewed with, I think

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_04]: cause I don't say yes to interviews

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_04]: unless I really believe in their message

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_04]: and their work and their platform.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_04]: So gosh, it's hard to come to mind right now.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I was on indoctrination, I was on preacher boys,

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_04]: the new evangelicals, trust me, sounds like a cult.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, I have a very long,

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I've said yes to a lot of podcasts

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and what I wanna say at the bigger point

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_04]: is that we live in a time

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_04]: with more psychological awareness of what is going on

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and how it impacts us than any other time

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_04]: and we live with more access to technology

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_04]: and I'm just so grateful for all of it

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_04]: because when I came out, there weren't hashtags.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_04]: There wasn't social media really yet.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_04]: There wasn't this accessibility.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm getting ready to put up a deconstruction guide

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_04]: on my website that goes with the book

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_04]: and it was part of the pre-order package

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_04]: and so I'm gonna release it

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_04]: to the rest of the public now

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_04]: and that didn't exist.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I would have loved to have a deconstruction guide

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_04]: in 2007.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I just, I love this space.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I love that everybody is able to say the truth

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_04]: about their abuse out loud and bring it out into the light.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I think as soon as you say something in the light,

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_04]: it dissipates the power around it and we can deal with it.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm super grateful

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_04]: and no, I will not pick a single favorite ever.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Fun facts.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_08]: You mentioned Preacher Boys.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know if you know that Eric is-

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I do.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, you do?

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, okay.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_08]: I wasn't sure.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_08]: If you like Eric.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_06]: That was the wink and the nod Eric wanted.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I have a question.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_06]: How would you compare the movement

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_06]: to when you left into its inertia now?

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Is it going in the right direction in your opinion?

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Do you think people are becoming more aware?

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_06]: What's your overall, what's the temperature?

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_06]: How we doing?

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I have to take a breath

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_04]: because I am terrified of where it is right now.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_04]: The biggest villain in my story is Doug Wilson.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_04]: That was 20 years ago.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_04]: He was the villain in my story in my young adulthood

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_04]: and the reason why so many of the most horrifying scenes

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_04]: in my book took place.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And he is stronger than ever.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_04]: His platform moved from blogging onto YouTube

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_04]: and he has got stronghold in the patriarchal right

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and I think for all the visibility

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_04]: that it is stronger today than it was before

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and we can only fight it with awareness

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_04]: but in some ways that's scarier

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_04]: because you know what you're dealing with.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Like when I, for example, Project 2025,

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_04]: it's a 50 year campaign to make America

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_04]: a Christian nation.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Project 2025 is not its first name.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just its current name.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_04]: 900 pages of a manifesto written

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_04]: by 110 conservative organizations isn't new

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_04]: and it's not contained to this one candidate

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_04]: but the life that I lived in is what's in those pages

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_04]: and that is what's coming for us.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_04]: So the fact that it's scaled up so patiently

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and quietly to this point in time is terrifying to me

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_04]: because I know my enemy.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I know it very closely.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, scary.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_08]: What do you say to people

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_08]: who aren't taking that seriously in your opinion?

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Like how do you, how do you-

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't spend a lot of time with them.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_04]: When I hear somebody being distant,

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_04]: this is a self-care thing that I do.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I go find who's listening.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't spend any time with people

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_04]: who have their head in the sand

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_04]: or who want to Pollyanna it

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_04]: or just debate even,

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_04]: just wanna argue that it is what it is.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I am a person, human being with limited resources

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_04]: and I will spend that time with survivors

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_04]: every single day

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_04]: and people who are interested

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_04]: in taking survivors seriously

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_04]: and that will take up my whole time.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I won't have any time for the haters.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's where I spend my life.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Good, and how does that overlap with

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_08]: as we were talking about earlier,

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_08]: this new obsession with Tradwives and Ballerina Farm.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_08]: What's your take on that?

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_08]: And how like is it good that people are aware about it?

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_08]: Is it bad that it's become trendy?

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_08]: It's making my head spin to be honest.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_08]: I need your professional opinion.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, it's horrifying

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_04]: that she has 9 million followers

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_04]: but it's not anything new.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's the really important thing to point out.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I was a Tradwife, Tract short for traditional

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and that's what we called it in the 90s.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And we wanted to differentiate

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_04]: from the stay at home moms, the S-H-A-M's

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_04]: because they could be lazy on their couches

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_04]: and not do their laundry

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_04]: but we traditional wives and mothers

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_04]: weren't managing our homes

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_04]: and running it efficiently

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_04]: and obeying our husbands

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_04]: and doing the things.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And if we'd had social media,

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I would have been Ballerina Farm.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I did run a website called Living Deliberately

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_04]: and it had 80,000 hits a day

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_04]: which was the equivalent

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_04]: to a major social media platform

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_04]: back before algorithms and Panda

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_04]: and all the things with Google.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_08]: So I don't even know what Panda is, but yeah.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Panda was the name of the first big Google thing

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_04]: that took away our rank

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_04]: and it just reorganized the internet

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_04]: in a way that creators got a harsh awakening.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so when algorithms first came on.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_04]: So like those early adopters,

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, she's just the manifestation of that.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_04]: When I read the times piece,

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I, every single hallmark for the cult is there.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Like her children are in a school room

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_04]: being indoctrinated into a religious curriculum.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Her children, her older children

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_04]: are roasting chickens and taking like roasting dinner.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Like her little children,

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_04]: if you look at the ages of them,

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_04]: they're not, her oldest is not very old.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_04]: They're parentified, they're abused, they're neglected.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_04]: They've got lots of money and they're very pretty

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_04]: but she's showing all the signs of consumption.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_04]: She's exhausted, she sometimes can't get out of bed

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_04]: for a week at a time.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_04]: The same toll on her body

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_04]: that happens to every quiver full mother

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_04]: who's having repeated pregnancies

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_04]: eventually catches up with you.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And she has this really scary desperation

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_04]: when she's trying to defend.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I watched her defense after the times article came out

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and it was emphasizing how much she loves her husband

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and is still fertile and is still gonna have babies.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_04]: She's desperate for that relevance

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_04]: because she knows she's on the line of aging out.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_04]: That's what happens in patriarchy

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_04]: once you can't have any more babies.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And your husband wants to know that you're still fruitful,

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_04]: you're still in love with him

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and you can still keep having these babies

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_04]: and every alarm bell goes off.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So do I think it's a great trend?

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the extra attention it gets

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_04]: even through expose content is scary

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_04]: because young impressionable girls

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_04]: are still looking at that

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_04]: as a pleasant solution for their chaos and fear.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Like fundamentalism is so soothing

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_04]: because it gives you this nurturing, very simple formula

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_04]: that's gonna result in this happiness if you just follow it.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's very tempting to think

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_04]: that we can just simplify down

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and go back to the puritanical times

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_04]: because they were so good for everybody.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a comfort to that when the world is exhausting

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_04]: and you're tired and you can't afford groceries

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and healthcare is expensive

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_04]: and all the problems that they help generate,

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_04]: they make us tired and then we want that white content.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_04]: So I mean, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think my comfort is that trends spin themselves out

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_04]: and the more attention I think will build to a head,

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_04]: it will pop and then I'm hopeful

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_04]: that progress and science and intelligence

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_04]: and the fact that we've evolved as a human society

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_04]: that we like that.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_04]: We like actually being better than we were in the 1500s

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_04]: is gonna pay off ultimately.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Fingers crossed, the crusades are real.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I agree, yeah.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, those things, they have a shelf life.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Generally, yeah.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and the part that like,

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_08]: other than the obvious scary things,

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_08]: it's too bad that the aesthetic is so pretty.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know what I mean?

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Like the jam jars and the floral dresses,

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_08]: like I'm drawn to it.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Sure.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Just the aesthetic of it

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_08]: and then I'm like, wait, what if-

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't have six more kids in me.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Definitely, I mean honestly.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_04]: That's because you have a healthy respect

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_04]: for what it takes to raise a child

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_04]: and you haven't eliminated all the things

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_04]: that your kids need in order to pursue

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_04]: that one goal of having as many as you can.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_04]: The army for God.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_06]: They're actually doing the opposite,

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_06]: they're usurping their children's wellbeing

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_06]: for an image.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly, well said.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you for that.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_08]: We were gonna do a whole episode on Ballerina Farm

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_08]: but until she exits,

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_08]: it's can't win on the whistleblower.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_06]: I'll run this by you.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_08]: For her, I mean.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I kind of look at that

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_06]: and I imagine a lot of people look at that

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_06]: and judge it and think it's absurd

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_06]: and all that stuff.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm always kind of sensitive to doing an episode

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_06]: on something like that

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_06]: in the fear of giving it more attention

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_06]: than it should,

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_06]: particularly if it's gonna be doing it

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_06]: from a punching down kind of perspective.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_07]: Right.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_06]: You really want people, in your case,

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_06]: to really wring the wisdom and content out of it

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_06]: and bring that to fruition

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_06]: and help them to be in a position

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_06]: where they can articulate

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_06]: how something like this happens.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And I feel like it's going through that,

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_06]: oh my God, rubber necking phase.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Right, right.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone loves to watch the car.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't do social media call outs.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't like calling out an active creator

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_04]: and punching them down,

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_04]: like you said, ridiculing them,

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_04]: judging them, pointing all that out.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I would much rather take something

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_04]: that's really cooked.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_04]: My experience is really cooked.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I can point out the parallels

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and then armed with that information,

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_04]: others can engage with that content,

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_04]: recognize the red flags for themselves,

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_04]: and then make that judgment as autonomous people

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_04]: instead of a bandwagon against someone.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Ultimately, Ballerina Farm's first captivity

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_04]: is within her own mind,

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_04]: and I'm not interested in making her life harder.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_06]: I think humor is a great tool

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_06]: for helping people come to awareness.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Obviously you wanna use it appropriately.

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think there was something on Trad Dads

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_06]: and it was making light of it

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_06]: by being obviously heightened version of it and absurd.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And there's a Jack, Andrew.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_08]: We just weren't sure if it was too soon.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Nippy and I are always like,

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_08]: but it's like we live in Saturday Night Live

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_08]: in our house and we're just coming up

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_08]: with these little sketches.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Like you didn't make my coffee.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Just making it totally absurd

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_06]: and having a Trad Dad movement

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_06]: just so it can bring,

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know, it feels a little too soon.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_06]: It made me uncomfortable.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I mean, that's good,

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_04]: usually satire right there

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_04]: and that comfortable onion feel.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_04]: There are real Trad Dads

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_04]: and it is the real hashtag.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh shit, is it?

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, is it really?

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I'd take care of doing that.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_04]: But I love them.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_06]: No, I don't think I'm gonna do it.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Laugh our truck.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_06]: There's real Trad Dads?

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there's real Trad Dads.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they're all about it.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And they're younger men from the bees.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm gonna leave it alone.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_08]: And are they like,

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_08]: they expect their slippers brought to them

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_08]: kind of Trad Dads?

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I call them the Theo bros.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I see them a lot in the Presbyterian world

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_04]: where they wanna sit and argue about the

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_04]: little details of theology

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_04]: and they wanna smoke their cigars

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_04]: and pass the whiskey

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_04]: and grow their beards really nice and thick

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_04]: and all the things.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the Joel Webbins of the world

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_04]: who wanna take away women's rights to vote

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and monitor their children's

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_04]: not-to-be habits. So they use theology to do it.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, oh yeah.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_08]: So they don't want women to vote.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Like this is, is this part of the manifesto?

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_04]: It is exactly what I lived through

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_04]: in that same reform tradition,

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_04]: which is if you look at how a patriarch runs their family,

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_04]: they scale that same method up into the government.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_04]: So if you look at how a patriarch's wife and children live

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_04]: then that's the plan for America's women.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_04]: They don't vote.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_04]: They don't have healthcare.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_04]: They don't have access to choices

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_04]: and education and agency and free lives.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Their dad is in control of everything

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_04]: until they're passed to their husbands.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_04]: That's the life of a patriarchal girl.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And I know it gets dark really fast,

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_04]: but when I see them talk about that now,

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_04]: it's like, oh, I lived that.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I know that's true.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_06]: How many of these people are holding office?

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Right now.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_06]: In what state do you know of?

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I don't have to confirm.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Are they over it with it?

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Do they hide it?

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_06]: What's the-

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_04]: That's why it's important to look at Project 2025

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and who's involved in those organizations.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_04]: The trail is hard to trace,

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_04]: but there's common denominators.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's always six degrees of separation.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_04]: For example, if you take Doug Wilson again,

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_04]: we look at him.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_04]: He's got a hand in the Baptists in Texas.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_04]: He's got affiliations with Bill Gothered.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_04]: He's got Mark Driscoll.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And then you get into the Texas,

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_04]: the little spider network,

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and you get into Alabama and Louisiana,

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Covenant Marriage, Speaker Johnson.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_04]: You get into Amy Coney Barrett on the Supreme Court.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_04]: You get into the organizations that founded Project 2025.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_04]: The biggest one, the Heritage Foundation,

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_04]: goes back 50 years.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_04]: So they've got their tendrils into everything

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_04]: from the homeschooling movement with Michael Ferris

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_04]: to all the Republican presidents since Reagan.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's just sometimes I wish I had a whiteboard

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_04]: with the strings so I could tie everything together,

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_04]: but they're all connected.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_06]: It's gonna be an important episode.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, maybe there's an episode to be done there.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_08]: John B was just saying there's a report in The Guardian

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_08]: that there's an Opus Dei connection to Project 2025.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_08]: We have not deep dived, so I don't.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm sorry to put you on the spot.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sure there's a lot of information.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Smarter people than I trace that.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_04]: But I believe it because I see it.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I see touch points and freckles of it

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_04]: when I'm doing my homework.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And then I just know,

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_04]: well somebody else has got that wheelhouse.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I stay in my lane, but I would definitely affirm that.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_04]: The Trad Catholic movement is part of the Trad movement.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_06]: The Trad Catholic movement is.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that's what I'm understanding

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_08]: from my little research is that it's the Baptists

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_08]: and the Catholics and the Gothards

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_08]: and all these people are kind of joining together

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_08]: to have that vote.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_04]: They originally unified under abortion.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_04]: That was the driver.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_04]: That's gonna start to splinter.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think we're gonna start seeing that splinter

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_04]: rapidly because Ro has fallen

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and their theological differences are going to come out

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_04]: because neither one of them thinks

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_04]: the other is a real Christian.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_04]: So once, and they all want dominion

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and they're not gonna share it.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_04]: There's no world where you got Bill Gothard

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and the Pope on the same mountain.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_04]: That's not happy.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_08]: For more background on what brought us here,

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_08]: check out my page turning memoir.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_08]: It's called, Scard,

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_08]: The True Story of How I Escaped Nxivm,

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_08]: The Cult that Bound My Life.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_08]: It's available on Amazon, Audible,

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_08]: and at most bookstores.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_08]: And if you wanna see that story in streaming form,

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_08]: you can watch both seasons of The Vow on HBO.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Behind every door at Houston Methodist,

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you know what to expect.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Expertise.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether it's life-saving brain surgery,

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[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: than ever.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_00]: With hundreds of doors across Houston,

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you can get expert care everywhere.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the difference between practicing medicine

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and leading it.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Houston Methodist, leading medicine.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Kia ora, I'm Anke Richter,

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: who wrote the bestseller, Cult Trip,

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm bringing you an exciting event.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Get ready for D-Cult 2024,

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: the first cult awareness conference in New Zealand,

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: happening in Christchurch this October.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you worried about a friend or family member

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: who's in a group that may be causing them harm?

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Or do you have your own story?

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Then join us for a weekend with experts

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: from around the world,

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_01]: where those who've left culty groups

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: can share their experiences

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and meet professionals who can help them.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Head to our website, D-Cult.net for all the info.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Break time's over people.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a good one.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_08]: How many nurses does it take to change a light bulb?

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Destroy a world.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, we switched gears.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Eric asked, AKA Preacher Boys,

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_08]: when reading the audio book,

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_08]: was there a section of your book that you've found harder

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_08]: to get through than expected?

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Something you didn't consider

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_08]: as obviously traumatizing as other events in your book,

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_08]: but when reading it out loud hit different?

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_04]: There were two aspects.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I choked up a lot at the births of my children.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Those are the most emotional sections, I think.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And then I was very cognizant

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_04]: that our poor sound engineers

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_04]: had never heard of this world

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_04]: and they were in the other room sobbing.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And that was a thing to know

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_04]: that that was my first touch point

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_04]: with the outside world really,

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_04]: like somebody who's not on my social platform

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_04]: and hasn't been following this,

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_04]: has never heard of it,

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_04]: usually spends their day with celebrities recording music

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_04]: and other audio books.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_04]: They don't know what they're gonna get on any given day,

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_04]: but I knew they hadn't seen a story like mine come in.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And that was actually hard

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_04]: because there was that empathy of feeling,

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I wanna make sure they're okay while I'm reading.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Always a mama bear.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Let's see, what other questions do we have here?

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_08]: There is a debate about Gothered and the Pope

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_08]: on the sidelines here.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Let's see, these are more comments than questions.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Let me go back to like the book tour

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_08]: and everything that's happening right now.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, not tour, the book tour from your home.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_08]: I know you've done a lot of interviews.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Are you getting sick of talking about it?

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Are you still pretty fired up?

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's just going deeper.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Each interview has been very good

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_04]: at finding different issues to drill down on.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So we're not just hitting all the plot points and spoilers,

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_04]: we're actually honing in on something.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And because there was our individual interviewers,

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_04]: they all have their favorite point.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So we've got to cover like get really deep

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_04]: into like sex education or I don't know

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_04]: what was the other one.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_04]: We just did trust me.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_04]: We talked a lot about evangelical influences

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_04]: that were more mainstream,

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_04]: like Veggie Tales and Life Way and Rapture Trauma

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_04]: and like things that kids of the 80s and 90s

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_04]: can relate to that they wouldn't have realized

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_04]: had this more narrow outcome

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_04]: because they did things like one little change

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_04]: like deciding to go to college

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_04]: or maybe not being as such a goody two shoes

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_04]: about attendance and being there all the time.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Like one little change could have altered

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_04]: their entire outcome.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_08]: What's your least favorite question right now?

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_04]: I do not like interviews that want a play by play,

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_04]: blow by blow, go read the book.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Also there's a really wonderful contrast happening

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_04]: and I don't even know if I should say it

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_04]: but the female hosts are by and large

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_04]: way more prepared than the male hosts

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_04]: and I'm just taking notes on that.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, oh, they're sending me stuff ahead of time.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_04]: They've got prep questions.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_04]: They make sure that my appointments

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_04]: double, triple checked.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_04]: It's interesting to watch it happen

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_04]: and no two podcasts have the same process

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_04]: so that always keeps it really interesting.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_04]: They all have a different platform they wanna record on

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_04]: or time or warm up or green room.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, interesting.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_08]: We're both pretty prepared, would you say?

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you guys are great.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_04]: That's why I hesitated.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, well, they're not that.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_04]: You checked up mental health at 10.30.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_04]: You checked with me on my appointment time at 11.30.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_04]: You've promoted this on social media.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_04]: You got your shit together.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_04]: That's not what I thought.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_06]: She's more the social aspect of it.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I would call myself a little bit of the rudder.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you're doing great.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_08]: We definitely have different roles in our podcasts

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_08]: and sometimes they change but I think we both-

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm better at some things,

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_06]: you're better at some things.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, 100%.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_06]: So I stay in my-

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Wait, did Eric just apologize for something?

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_04]: What did he say?

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I was not talking about you either.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Eric did not prepare.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sure you prepared just fine.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_08]: You did fine.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Eric's also hosting like three podcasts at one time.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_08]: It's like a lot of podcasts right now.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Busy guy.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and posting our socials.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_08]: I actually had a thought that I hadn't really put

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_08]: together since our last interview, which is that I'm-

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Your interview was before you went across the ocean.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_08]: I remember that now because-

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_06]: You gave us an idea for a trip.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, cool.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_08]: We had talked about hiking, which we still have to do

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_08]: and you were telling me about your trip

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_08]: and I think I was communicating with you briefly

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_08]: while you were-

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, tell the audience about what you did.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, yeah, so the backstory of this

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_04]: is that husband 2.0 did not wanna be married

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_04]: to a writer and he did not realize this

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_04]: while I was writing the book for 10 years.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_04]: He realized this when I sold it and he knew.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_04]: His words to me were,

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't think you were that serious about it,

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_04]: which belies a bunch of belief.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you didn't think I could do it.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_04]: But I honored that.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_04]: He's older than I was and writing is very demanding

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_04]: and this work is very demanding

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_04]: and he is also very devout and really protective

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_04]: of his system of belief in the not all Christians

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of way, which is my number one piece

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_04]: of negative feedback that I detest

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and we'll talk about all day long.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_04]: But we were just very different people

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_04]: by the end of this process.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So I gave him the world's most amicable divorce,

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_04]: sent him on his way.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to process my grief over that privately

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_04]: and nervous system acclamation is my number one priority

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_04]: to myself right now for good.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I think in recovery,

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I've learned that I need to resist urgency.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I need to resist other people's timetables.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I need to take time to adjust to big changes and big news.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_04]: So I took my book advance

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_04]: and I booked a slow travel trip to Europe.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I took the Queen Mary across for eight days on the ocean.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Then I got on trains and I took them across England

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_04]: and then a ferry to France

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_04]: and then trains through Europe and Italy

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_04]: where I spent the summer with my son

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and my brand new grandson who is now a year old.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my goodness.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I have two grandsons now and a granddaughter on the way.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_04]: So what that trip allowed me to do

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_04]: was a whole bunch of things.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I got to grieve in private,

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_04]: let my nervous system adapt to my new status,

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_04]: protect my joy because I'd sold my book

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_04]: and I'd found success that I'd worked so hard for,

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_04]: see the world, expand my horizons.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Like there were a lot of things

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_04]: that happened in that trip.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_04]: But number one, I didn't have travel hassles

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_04]: or the congestion of just traveling by itself

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_04]: and compressing my poor little body

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_04]: in these time zones and all the things

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_04]: that happens when you travel.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Got to skip all that part and do it romantically.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_04]: It was great.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_04]: That's so great.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Highly recommended.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_08]: I think for me as someone who's also healing

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_08]: on my own timeline,

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm whatever even you telling me that

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_08]: thinking like, oh, I love that journey for her

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_08]: but like I'll never do that

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_08]: because that sounds like torture to be on a boat.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_07]: I was like, I'm all about that.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_08]: But interestingly in rereading it,

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm in a different place now

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_08]: and I've recently like this summer,

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_08]: a friend of mine was like,

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Sarah, you need decompression time.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_08]: You need to not pack your schedule so much.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_08]: You need to like do things for your nervous system.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_08]: And now I'm like, oh, I wanna do that.

[00:44:15] Yeah.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a spa and you can just walk

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_04]: and stare at the blue sea

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and there's no movement on the ship

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_04]: because it's the last ocean liner on the planet.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And so there's no rocking or swaying

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and you can just be in a way that like,

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_04]: there is a wifi signal if you must have it.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_08]: You like what you hear?

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Please do give us a rating, a review

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[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_08]: Smash that subscribe button.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_08]: You know what to do.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks everybody.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_08]: That was just a little taste

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_08]: of our in-depth followup interview with Tia Lovings.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Our Q&A session where we learned more

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_08]: about Tia's writing process,

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_08]: tradwife culture and her second book coming very soon.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And if you wanna hear all of that,

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_06]: you have to tune into our Patreon.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Could not recommend Tia's book more.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Get it on Audible.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_08]: She narrates it herself and does a stellar job.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's not all.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_08]: We sound like an infomercial over here.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Don't buy yet.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Right now on the feed,

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_08]: we're talking with Dr. Tabitha Chapman,

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_08]: a friend and former Nexium member.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_08]: So this week on Thursday,

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_08]: we'll be dropping part one and next week, part two.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_08]: And in this two-part interview,

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_08]: we cover her experience joining Nexium

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_08]: and her work in providing support now

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_08]: for ex-Cult members.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_08]: We've never had her on the podcast before

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_08]: and it will be a Patreon Nexium nerd exclusive.

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_06]: That's all happening on the Patreon feed right now.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So listen to the complete interview with Tia

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_06]: and participate in more interviews

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_06]: with some of our favorite guests during a power Zoom

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_06]: at 12 Eastern time on Mondays

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_06]: on our Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_08]: And just if we weren't completely clear,

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_08]: those are live so you get to ask questions.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_08]: We hope you enjoy and we'll see you there.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks again for supporting

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_08]: and making this podcast happen.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Till next time.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for listening, everyone.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_06]: We're heading over to patreon.com slash

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_06]: a little bit culty now to discuss this episode.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_06]: In the meantime, dear listener, please remember,

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_06]: this podcast is solely for general informational,

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_06]: educational and entertainment purposes.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not intended as a substitute for real medical,

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_06]: legal or therapeutic advice.

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_06]: For cult recovery resources

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_06]: and to learn more about seeking safely

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_06]: in this culty world, check out

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_06]: a little bit culty dot com slash culty resources

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and don't miss Sarah's Ted Talk called

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_06]: How Cult Literate Are You? Great stuff.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_08]: A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production executive produced

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_08]: by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nipy Ames

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_08]: in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_08]: at Citizens of Sound and our co-creator

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_08]: and show chaplain slash bodyguard Jess Temple-Tardy.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_08]: And our theme song Cultivated is by John Bryant.