Post Narc Therapy: Robin Stern, Dr. Ramani & Dr. Christine Cocchicola

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_04]: This winter, take your Icon Pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy,

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_04]: to independent spirit. North where easy to get to meets worlds away. Go north to snow

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_04]: basin. Now on the Icon Pass.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_07]: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical,

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_07]: or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_07]: policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club,

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_07]: organization, business, individual, anyone or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony,

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_08]: air quotes Nippy Ames. And this is A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_08]: things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors,

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_07]: experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_08]: live through them. Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_07]: the hard way. Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty,

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_07]: you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult. Oops,

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_08]: you better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_07]: Welcome back listeners. This week we've got another remix episode in your feed. Consider it

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_07]: as a summer smorgasbord of culty content to tide you over between new content and new

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_08]: episodes. Kind of like a chikootery board. Yeah, sure. Some goat cheese, some pickles.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay. You want meat on that, don't you? What is the meat of this episode? Would you say it's

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_08]: the therapy episode? Romani is always pretty meaty. This week, the meat of the episode,

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_08]: we're heading back to the therapist couch. So just lay back, get comfy because the

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_08]: doctors are in to talk about everything therapy, including how to heal from past

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_08]: trauma and dealing with those pesky narcissists in your life. And there's so many

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_08]: these days, aren't they? Just popping up like little moles. No, they've been there.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_07]: We're just catching. Today you'll hear highlights from past chats with Dr.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_07]: Robin Stern, Dr. Romani and Dr. Christine Cotillo. How's that make you feel?

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_08]: How's that make you feel? What is the meaning of that? Where do you feel that?

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_08]: First things first, we're sharing all things gaslighting with psychotherapist

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Dr. Robin Stern. And by all things, we mean all things. Dr. Stern literally

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_08]: coined the term the gaslight effect. Very impressive. Let's dive into it,

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: shall we? Dovin. Dovin. Well, it's very interesting that you say that

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: because right now I'm engaged in some research really to delineate the

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: different levels, if you will, of gaslighting along that spectrum from

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: something that's mild to something that's soul destroying. Right? Because

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes when I write about it or I speak about it, somebody will say,

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: well, that's not gaslighting because it's too mild or that sounds like

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just bad behavior. But gaslighting has several hallmarks, if you

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: will. So gaslighting is when somebody, it's an insidious type of emotional

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02]: abuse repeated over time in a power relationship. That's really important.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Repeated over time within a relationship where the one person has power.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: The person in power seeks to undermine your reality, your character,

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and sometimes leads you to second guess yourself to the point where you

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: feel like you're going crazy. So the gaslighter is seeking to sow seeds

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: of doubt by pivoting, by insisting that their reality is the reality

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and moving the conversation from taking responsibility or answering your

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: question or even seeing, agreeing about what's real out there to blaming

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you, deflecting responsibility and telling you no, your perceptions are

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: not accurate and in fact, there's something wrong with you. So does

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that sound like how people get into a cult?

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah. Well, we're obviously hearing this from the perspective of how it gets

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_08]: talked about mostly right now, which is in relationships and then politics,

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_08]: which we can talk about later. But obviously on a little bit culty,

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_08]: we're thinking about how all of this was done to us and to pretty

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_08]: much every survivor we've ever spoken to. And I think it's really

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_08]: important also for people to understand where it comes from. Can you

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_08]: take a little bit to where you got the term from the film and originally

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_08]: the play?

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. So the term gaslight effect is mine based on what I saw was

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: the impact of gaslighting over time in the patients I was treating.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But gaslighting, the term gaslight comes from originally a play,

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: 1938 by Patrick Hamilton that was made into a very popular movie,

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: 1944 gaslight starring Ingrid Bergman and Charles Boyer,

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: where the diabolical husband takes advantage of his adoring wife who puts

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: him on a pedestal and loves him and follows his every word.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And the diabolical husband is trying to,

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: we know as the audience steal her family jewels,

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: but what she believes is that he's just loving her.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And yet he keeps telling her things about herself that initially she

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: says, but don't be silly. No, I'm not forgetful. That's just silly.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: This is the way I would describe it in the movie watching the movie.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think she might even say, don't be silly. No, really?

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not forgetful. And yet in the movie in about seven minutes and in

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: real life, it could be seven days or seven months.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You see her devolve from this strong,

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: confident shore of herself and her mind woman to

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: really second guessing herself and beginning to think, maybe he's right.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I am forgetful. And of course, in the intervening time in the movie,

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: he is stealing the brooch that he gave her as a gift. And he said,

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to put this in here. You can't wear it today because it's broken.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's just save it in here. And then she'll say, okay, of course.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. You remember I'm putting it in, in your bag.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And she would say, of course I remember. And I think she did say,

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: don't be silly. And then of course he steals it out of the bag.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And then she's looking for it and she becomes frantic and she becomes

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: exhausted from being frantic. And at the end of that scene, she says,

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Gregory, just his name in the movie. I lost it. Maybe you're right.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_08]: So she starts to doubt her own reality and which she orchestrated.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. Okay. Yes. He orchestrated the whole thing. And in real life,

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: many people are not quite that diabolical.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not out to steal your jewels, but they are out to insist.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Their goal is to have the power in the relationship,

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: to insist on their reality,

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: to make sure that your reality is their reality and you're joining them.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would imagine that I really want to hear about your experience.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know this is your podcast and you're asking me,

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: but I really want to hear about what happened and how you were

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: entreated into this relationship with this power figure.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely. We're also to solicit ourselves, happy to come on yours,

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_08]: to go into some of those details. I'm sure we will.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Some people say we talk too much in our podcast, so we try not to,

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_08]: but it's hard to not relate these things to our experiences.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I mean, it is our experience that is our lane,

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_07]: but in the Gaslight movie, it is a real insidious,

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_07]: like the person has mal-intent.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_08]: The intent to deceive.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_07]: The intent to deceive and there's a difference.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_07]: And I think most of our audience aren't people that have insidious intent if

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_07]: they're listening to our podcast,

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_07]: but there's certainly things that I recognize in your book.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_07]: It was like, I've for sure done that behavior, right?

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_07]: And I think more like my first couple of relationships where I just was not

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_07]: strong enough emotionally to look at something.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_07]: So I deflected and made it the other person.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_07]: And then when the relationship ended,

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_07]: I would argue a little emotionally more mature,

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_07]: looked back and was like, that was not cool behavior.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Cause I kind of knew I was wrong and wasn't strong enough to admit I was

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_07]: wrong. And I think one of the things we talked about in your book is a lot

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_07]: of times it's men that are doing this to women because I just wanted to

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_07]: have a persona of strength and me admitting weakness at that point

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_07]: would conflict with my ego.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_07]: So then I quote Gaslight the person to deny it.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_07]: And I don't think I had insidious intent other than I just wanted to

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_07]: fortify myself image to the person that, you know, so I think what are the

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_07]: distinctions between that and how do you think that sets up in our culture?

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Like where it's a lot of men doing,

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_07]: would you say that it's a lot of men doing it to women predominantly?

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I would say yes. Certainly in my own experience as a therapist,

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I've seen more women come in to talk about their gaslighting partners.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But before I go into that,

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to thank you and say that I love that you're telling your listening

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: audience that you were gaslighting people.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't know I was doing that.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't know it exactly.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And you couldn't have said it better than to describe that at a time

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: where you were uncomfortable or you couldn't say your feelings or you were

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: destabilized that you moved into gaslighting.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_07]: It was the only thing I knew how to do.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: As a way of managing the moment,

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: as a way of reestablishing your sense of self and your sense of power in

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that moment.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason that I'm calling that out in this way is that people say

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: to me all the time, are some men just born gaslighters?

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: The answer is no, they're not born gaslighters.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a socially learned behavior strategy.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And either you saw somebody doing it,

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you were a target of someone doing it or a victim of someone doing it to

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you, or you just happen into it.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Because at the moment you can't take responsibility.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't want to admit something.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You feel like you're on the spot and it's much easier to say,

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: what's the matter with you? You're so paranoid.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Or like, what's wrong with you? You're so sensitive.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And then of course your gaslight partner walks away

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: forgetting about what she just asked you about or accused you of,

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: or worried about, and is now thinking, oh my God, I'm so sensitive.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Sensitive and needy. That's me.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And needy. You're so needy. What's your problem?

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_08]: That's the truth is that I am needy.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Good for you.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_08]: And we've just come out of a cult also where like,

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_08]: we're not supposed to have needs.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_08]: So expressing them has been very difficult.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Both of us expressing needs to each other has been very difficult.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_07]: It was difficult before I was in a cult.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_07]: The times where I recognized, oh, I think I was gaslighting.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_07]: I guess my primitive term was I was being a little bit of a dick.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_07]: But basically I would feel weak and vulnerable.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_07]: And a show strength was to deny the reality of what was going on

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_07]: and make it about the other person or something to deflect me from

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_07]: looking at what I kind of was recognizing as true,

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_07]: but didn't want to own on the spot, I guess.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think to answer your earlier question, or at least to begin to,

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of men need to have that ideal, ideal self out front.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, of strength.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you're strong and you don't like being vulnerable.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of icky and other people may think it's weak.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And vulnerability means showing your insides to someone, right?

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to really feel psychologically safe.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you haven't grown up feeling like experiencing psychological safety

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and knowing how to maneuver when you feel at the edges of that,

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're losing it, it's hard to step into that.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So what happens if things go wrong?

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So it makes sense.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: People know kids and adults to come to their defensive behaviors

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: because we're smart. We don't want to get hurt.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We want to be self-protective. Right.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not always the most helpful, obviously.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would never use the term you did like behaving like a dick.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I would never say that.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's certainly not helpful.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_06]: My words, of course.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's certainly not pro relationship and also doesn't really

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: convey any information.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't help you to really name what you were doing.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. And so that you can do something about it.

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[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we?

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_07]: Like turning the heat up on the stove.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_07]: It's so interesting that gas

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_07]: lighting can take different levels and intensity, like a mild gas

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_07]: layer telling you their gas lighting is not that bad is in of itself gaslighting.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, the irony.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_08]: If you want to explore more of Dr.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Robyn Stern's study into gaslighting, check out her podcast,

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_08]: The Gaslight Effect from Casual Gaslighting to Full Blown Narcissism.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Our next clip is from our chat with Dr.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Ramani Dervisala, licensed clinical psychologist and YouTuber covering all

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_08]: things narcissism and more. She is legit the goat in this field.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_08]: She specializes in identifying narcissistic behaviors

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_08]: and how to heal from relationships with a narcissist.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Let's take a listen.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_07]: All joking aside, you know, I was reading it and I was going to Sarah.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_07]: I was like, oh, my God, I do some of these.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, I'm like, I was some of it was kind of horrifying,

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_07]: to be quite honest with you.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, Sarah reassured me she's like, you're a good person.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_07]: I was like, thank you.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: She's cutting me and all that stuff.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You bring up an important point, though, right?

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that when people first of all,

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the problem is, is that we hear the word narcissist

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and we view it as a black or white.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You either are you. It's not that simple.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Or we view it diagnostically, which we're even throwing that out

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: completely. But it's a continuum, but it's also not just one thing.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So just because maybe, I don't know, someone interrupts you or talks over

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: you or maybe even monopolizes the conversation.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't make them a narcissistic person.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Or they talk about their day first and may not wait to hear about your day.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't make them a narcissistic person.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if that happened every single day,

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_00]: every conversation was just about everyone they encountered.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we're smelling it, but you got to have all the other stuff.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: The entitlement and the variable empathy and the grandiosity

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and the control and the power obsession and all the stuff like again,

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_00]: a carrot is not soup.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Flour is not cake.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You need all the other stuff.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that healthy people who hear the content on narcissism

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: immediately go to, well, I do that sometimes.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We all do these things sometimes.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We are human beings, right?

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00]: By definition, we're going to do these things.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: The fact is, though, healthy human beings make amends.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: They have self reflection.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You might turn to a spouse or partner and say, Yikes.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I asked. I talked about my day for 20 minutes and I didn't even ask you.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I am so sorry.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you imagine a narcissistic person ever doing that in history? Never.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the difference is that when we do have some slippage,

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: when we're not sort of being as interpersonally balanced as we can be,

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: that we check ourselves and we check in with the people we care about and say,

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't get that right.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I am sorry.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We actually take real responsibility, not things like I'm sorry.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: You feel that way.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a big difference.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely. Just setting the stage for our listeners

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_08]: that when we're talking about recovering from narcissistic abuse,

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_08]: they can interplay that or interchange that with cult recovery.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. I mean, listen, it's funny.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I just did an interview with Yanya, Dr. Yanya Lalich a few weeks ago,

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and we were talking about this and that the parallels are eerie.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: The difference is it's probably a cultic structure is much more codified.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: A narcissistic relational structure is often two people,

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but you can have cults of two people. Look at Sarah Lawrence.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a cult of seven people.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Cults can be quite small.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But the fact is, is that all of the apparatus is the same.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: If anything to me, what a cult is,

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: is that you take all the narcissistic dynamics and it's really colorful.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I watched the movie Barbie recently and everything was like color.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I watch Oppenheimer and everything was not color.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That's to me what a cultic narcissistic system is like.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's everything bright color.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So every dynamic is just amped up, the volume, the color, all of it.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like things like collateralizing someone,

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: which happens in a narcissistic relationship is much more concrete in a

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: cultic relationship. Does that make sense? So it's like you take it all,

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and it becomes more,

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: it's almost like they give you a manual for the narcissistic relationship in a

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: family or in a couple where it's not a, again,

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_00]: an organized cult. You're sort of, it feels different,

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's exactly the same. It has exactly the same effect.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And one could argue that the deprogramming in essence we would have to

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: do for somebody who's leaving a cultic system,

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: not to mention things like moral injury and all of that. Those are very,

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: very similar dynamics to what I've always observed in people who are leaving

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: narcissistic relationships or have become aware of narcissistic relationships.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Such a good point. And we'll be referring people to episode one,

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_08]: which we just re listened to to prep for this. And it's so good.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_08]: It's like definitely one of our favorite flagship episodes,

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_08]: especially when people are like,

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_08]: tell me about your podcast and they have no cult connection.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm like, this is one that everybody can relate to. It's so helpful.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_08]: And truthfully, when I started your book, I was like, oh my God,

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_08]: I've read so many books about this. And since leaving,

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not going to learn anything new about narcissism, but I did, I did.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_08]: And two things I really would like to point out specifically in regards to

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_08]: our podcast is the concepts of bread crumbing and future faking and

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_08]: euphoric recall. And those three things, before we get into healing,

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_08]: I think is so important in regards to like in terms of the recovery,

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_08]: understanding the harm that narcissists did either in a cult or one on

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_08]: one. Can you explain some of those terms?

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So bread crumbing is this process and any narcissistic system,

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: cultic system, it happens where the simplest way to put it is in the

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: relationship.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You get indoctrinated into or teach yourself to get by on less and

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: less and less and be willing to turn it into more and more and more.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So it would literally be in the simplest example,

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: it would be somebody who's in a relationship with a narcissistic person

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: who doesn't communicate is very shady. It's very dismissive.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And that person comes home on time for dinner one day out of 10.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And the person in the relationship is, Oh my gosh,

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: they came home for dinner and they loved the dinner I cooked for them.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Like we're doing okay.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it is very much or the person will remember an event and give them a

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_00]: gift and say, Oh my gosh, they remember the gift.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They're such a good friend.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And so not only is most of the relationship characterized by neglect,

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_00]: what it means is that even one tiny showing up gets over-interpreted,

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_00]: overvalued.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And the problem is over justified as a piece of evidence that this

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: relationship is good or healthy or beneficent or this other person's okay.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And over time bread crumbings are really insidious dynamic because for a

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of people, it can start early in life. Like they get,

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: because for kids,

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: kids have to make a relationship with a parent work,

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: including a narcissistic parent.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So the narcissistic parent can literally every so often look up from a

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: newspaper and the kid will say,

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: my parent loves me and all the rest of the time be absent.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: The child learns at a very early age that love and close relationships are

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00]: transactional.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: What do I need to do to make this person look over their newspaper?

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And then that expectation gets taken into adult relationships,

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: but it doesn't just happen that way.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people have perfectly fine family systems growing up,

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: but then they meet someone,

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: they craft a narrative about this is my person. This person's great.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really into this person.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And if that person's narcissistic and they've done sort of the four to six

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: to eight weeks of love bombing,

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's all the investment they were ever going to put in.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the devaluing happens.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: The person has those couple of months of that love bombing to sort of

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: draw from, if you will.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then as the,

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: as the process of pulling out for the narcissistic person happens,

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: then the person is still holding onto that. In fact,

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: it cuts to the other topic you were asking about, which is euphoric recall.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We can selectively,

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: it's an interesting kind of a twist in these narcissistic relationships.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_07]: Cognitive dissonance.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It's cognitive dissonance,

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: but it actually goes against what we know about human nature in a way,

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: because our brains,

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: our nervous systems are actually trained or actually developed to choose

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: threats in our environment.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact,

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: we selectively remember bad things and there's an evolutionary adaptation to

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: that. If we can remember which Bush had the poison berries,

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_00]: we're going to be less likely to eat the poison berries.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: If we remember which pathway took us down the, you know, the dangerous creek,

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: we won't go down that pathway again. We are,

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: our sympathetic nervous systems,

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: our nervous systems in general monitor for threat. And in fact,

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: when you look at some of the interesting work on mindfulness,

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Rick Hansen's work is a great example. He is somebody who said like,

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: listen,

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: part of what we need to do is mindfulness practices is train our brains to

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: look for good stuff, you know, because we're so trained to in many, if you will,

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: healthy relationships,

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: people will focus on the one fight they had three weeks ago,

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but the other three weeks were great.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: There's this weird interesting flip because of the trauma bond that happens

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: in any narcissistic relationship,

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: which is that a person feels attached to someone where the relationship goes

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: back and forth. It's good and it's bad. It's up and it's down.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And because there was a period of really good,

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and oftentimes there's enablers who are signing off on that relationship. Oh gosh,

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: what a great relationship you have that the person is then trying to make

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: sense of the confusion. They blame themselves.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: They get by on the breadcrumbs and they justify the behavior in the

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: relationship and they keep falling back on just when they say,

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00]: this is really unhealthy, but, but gosh,

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: we had such a good time in Miami three years ago and they'll selectively

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: pull out those good memories, euphoric recall. So it's,

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: it's part of that whole trauma bonding mechanism, but the bread crumbing is again,

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: it's getting by on so little and really crafting a narrative about how good it

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: is as a result.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's present in almost every narcissistic relationship I've ever seen after

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: people get educated and they start to learn that this isn't healthy.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like a person who, again,

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I think any of us who are in a scarcity mindset and I think bread

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: crumbing is part of a scarcity mindset and you don't think you deserve

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: more because that's what the narcissistic relationship tells you.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't deserve more. You're not enough. How dare you ask for more?

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: How dare you have a need, how dare you have a want all of that gets taken away.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: The person's sense of self gets taken away and the bread crumbing really

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: kicks in.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_07]: For more background on what brought us here,

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_07]: check out Sarah's page turning memoir. It's called scarred,

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_07]: the true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that bound my life.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_07]: It's available on Amazon audible and at most bookstores.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_07]: If you want to see that story in streaming form,

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_07]: watch both seasons of the vow on HBO.

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[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_07]: You've heard from our sponsors. Now let's get back to a little bit culty,

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_07]: shall we?

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_07]: It's always a pleasure to have Dr.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Romany in our show.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_07]: If you're interested in exploring more of her work around narcissism,

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_07]: pick up one of her two books, should I stay or should I go surviving a

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_07]: relationship with a narcissist and don't you know who I am,

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_07]: how to stay sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement and incivility.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_08]: And since this was written, I have been promoting her third book,

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_08]: which I love. And I think it's my favorite book of hers.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_08]: It's not you.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_08]: I think I recommended it to more people than any other book I recommended on

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_08]: this podcast, maybe other than Take Back Your Life by Janja Lalich.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_08]: A wonderful book for learning how to deal with narcissists and not just

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_08]: like cut them out of your life because they're everywhere on the spectrum,

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_08]: of course. And you have to learn how to navigate their behavior so you can

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_08]: be sane.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_07]: And finally, to top off our trio of therapy sessions,

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_07]: our final snippet comes from Dr.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Christine Cotchiola.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Our episode with Christine explored identifying and healing from coercive

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_07]: control.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_07]: That includes everything from emotional isolation and financial control to an

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_07]: abusive conservatorship a la Britney Spears. Here's Christine.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Can you define coercive control and what it means?

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: What we know now in the field is that coercive control is the

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: foundation of literally any kind of abuse.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's certainly the foundation of most domestic abuse for sure,

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: because situational violence is something that occurs very rarely.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And it occurs when perhaps two people have a maladaptive coping that

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: is anger. And so they might hit or push when they're angry. Right.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But coercive control is everything else.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's based on this power and control.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And what I think you guys are trying to highlight and so many people are

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: talking about right now is that coercive control happens in systems all of the

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: time. And it is how people have power over others,

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: power over. And so, you know,

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: what I always tell my clients is that our goal is to have personal power

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: in relationships. That's not a bad thing. That's a really good thing.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But when there's inequality in a relationship and we see this,

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: of course, with, I mean, things like racism,

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: like this is an example of coercive control.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And so what we know is that it's often non-physical and

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that it is a psychological harm. And actually in the field,

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot of research that talks about it as psychological maltreatment,

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: not even just psychological abuse because psychological abuse,

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_01]: abuse actually means something that is overt,

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: something that we can see and neglect. Like when you think about child abuse,

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: right? Neglect is usually something that we can't see.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And we call it an act of omission because someone didn't actually supposedly,

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01]: supposedly by the way, intend to harm someone where abuse is usually

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: intentional.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so maltreatment covers both abuse and neglect.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And it is something that impacts.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I also try to veer away from emotional abuse. And I'll tell you why,

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: because emotional abuse is something that harms me emotionally.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It makes me afraid. It makes me anxious.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: All of those things that are going on, but psychological,

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_01]: when we use that term, it actually encompasses trauma on the brain.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So it not only impacts my anxiety level, my fears,

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: my sadness, those things,

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: but it also we know is actually changing the brain.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Like literally the organ of the brain is changing.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. I mean, it truly is remarkable when we,

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'll just segue for a moment into this whole idea,

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: which is really my area of focus is the impact on children. Right?

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So when children are coercively controlled,

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: how the developing like you guys went into this horrible

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: experience, but you were both adults when you went into it.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine a child and the developing brain actually being put into that kind

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of circumstance and how much trauma and long standing impact

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that has. So,

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: so the psychological maltreatment or abuse as a lot of people call it is the

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: gaslighting is manipulation, intimidation, isolation,

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: threatening behavior, diminishing you as a person,

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: taking away your autonomy. Dr.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Evan Stark calls it unknowing what we know. It's not so true.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_08]: I got chills when you say that and everything you just said in case our

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_08]: audience hasn't connected the dots yet,

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_08]: but all those things are the same thing that a cult leader does.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Exactly.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Cult of one.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Trauma on the brain.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes. And unknowing what we know, unknowing what we know, it's like,

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_08]: that's exactly, like this,

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_08]: we've always called it dismantling our intuition that we felt our

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_08]: intuition got dismantled.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_07]: It puts a lot of valuable language to things that a lot of people don't

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_07]: have language for.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. It truly is about like linguistically connecting people to their

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: experiences. So he has another great quote that I'll share with you.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like carpenter ants in a house slowly devouring.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you don't even know it's going on. You don't even see it.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't hear it. You don't see it. You don't know what's going on,

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: but then the foundation falls.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a stripping away of your autonomy and that happens,

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_01]: of course,

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: in domestic violence where one person has a position of power over you.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: That is exactly what happened in my situation.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Just slowly eroding away.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't even like to say self-esteem because frankly,

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I had great self-esteem in my career.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_07]: It's a great distinction. Yeah.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So some people may have some self-worth issues. That's certainly true.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I always say self-worth is a continuum. Listen,

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I may have low self-esteem in a crowd maybe,

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: but not in my work in a classroom or something,

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: which I don't have low self-esteem in the crowd by the way, pretty social.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, the point is, is that it's a continuum and it's not a blank,

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_01]: blanket effect,

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: but these abusers are actually just taking away our ability to know who we

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01]: really are. Who am I? I no longer know.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm a bad mother.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Would you argue that knowing who you are is sometimes hingent on being

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_07]: connected to them or through their filter?

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: If they are the person who is diminishing you all of the time,

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: even if it's covertly, you don't even know what's going on. Right?

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: The carpenter ants kind of thing, right?

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: If they are diminishing you all the time,

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: then aren't they the people that perhaps you're looking for for affirmation?

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_08]: The crumb. A crumb. The crumb of affirmation. Yeah.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_08]: We've talked about that a few times in the podcast how Keith would dole out

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_08]: these little crumbs, little little crumbs.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you remember in season one of The Vow where Keith had me like up on,

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_08]: it wasn't stages, but it was in front of all my peers practicing the new sales

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_08]: pitch and you don't see the full thing,

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_08]: but it was going on for hours like drills.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_08]: And I was like determined to not give up and not cry and not be humiliated.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_08]: And I was humiliated. And then at the end he was like, good job.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_08]: It was like the only time I ever got a compliment from him.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_08]: And I, and it meant something to me and I can only imagine what it was

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_08]: like for the women who were with him, you know,

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_08]: and wanting that from in some of their cases, like their lover,

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_08]: but also the source of fixing everything.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_07]: But there was a level, I think you were susceptible to it though, Sarah.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_07]: So I think, and correct me if I'm wrong,

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_07]: that was the level to which you were susceptible.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_07]: The people who ended up being in his inner circle or maybe even targeted

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_07]: more or more susceptible because for various case by case

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_07]: reasons. And I was susceptible to a different degree.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah. I mean,

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_08]: I think I was susceptible to even just being like to getting on the

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_08]: straight path and like, and tell, please share your analysis Dr. C.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_08]: But what I resonated with hearing some of your other interviews is that

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_08]: I am accommodating and I am a fixer. And so, yeah, I saw you say,

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_08]: I heard you say that a couple of times. Talk to us about that.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So actually the research study that I completed,

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: it's called Perfect Prey. And the idea behind it is that,

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: so Jeffrey Young and Janet Glasgow do this 11 life traps book,

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and it talks about maladaptive coping schemas.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And because we all have them, right?

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we may grow up, it may be because of our development,

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: it may be how we're born. It might be culture,

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: but certainly in particular for women, there is a people pleasing,

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: like just how do we make everything right? How do we fix things?

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that maladaptive coping is called subjugation,

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: which you guys are familiar with, right?

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so our people who have that as one of their traits.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, Dr.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Sandra Brown calls it a super trait because it means that we kind of just want

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: everyone to be happy. You know, we're not like,

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: we're not making the neighbor cookies cause we're trying to kiss their ass.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We're making the neighbor cookies cause we think it might make their day,

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you know? Like that's just like how it is.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And so do those traits set us up to be

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: perfect prey? And the answer is a resounding yes.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And then would a narcissistic coercive controller ever be attracted to

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: anyone who doesn't have those traits? First of all, if I'm a narcissist,

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: then I don't like myself. I know that I'm not decent human being.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like who I am.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to surround myself with people who I do like so I can mirror

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that. Right? So there's that,

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but then am I going to be around someone who's going to maybe dictate to

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: me what to do or am I going to be around someone who's constantly trying

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01]: to make me happy and fix things. And so, you know,

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_01]: young and class go talk about these like identity characteristics. It's like,

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: it's totally is people pleasing to some degree.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's giving more than taking.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Think of all the people you know who are givers in relationships.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_01]: How readily have they been harmed by other people? Betrayed over,

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: betrayal trauma, right? Betrayed over and over again in relationships.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_07]: Like what you hear, do you? Give us a rating review and subscribe on iTunes.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Smash that subscribe button. You know, you want to.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_08]: We're so grateful to Dr.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Coach Yola for talking to us and how she felt so comfortable to share her

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_08]: personal experience.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Coercive control takes on so many different shapes and styles.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_08]: And when you're into it,

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_08]: it can be nearly impossible to identify like Christine's experience from cult

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_08]: leaders to partners or parents, coercive controllers walk among us.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay folks. There you have it.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_07]: Our quick crash course in cult psychology from a collection of past guests.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Our therapy session may be up this week,

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_07]: but we'll be back in your feed with new episodes very soon.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you all for listening.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_08]: And if you want some special bonus content,

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_08]: you know where to find us on Patreon where as promised,

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_08]: we have brand new exclusive interviews with former Nexium members that you've

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_08]: never heard of before. For all you Nexium nerds out there,

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Happy summer.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for listening everyone.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_07]: We're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culty now to discuss this

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_07]: episode. In the meantime, dear listener, please remember,

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_07]: this podcast is solely for general informational,

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_07]: educational and entertainment purposes.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_07]: It's not intended as a substitute for real medical science.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_07]: or therapeutic advice for cult recovery resources and to learn more about

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_07]: seeking safely in this culty world.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Check out a little bit culty.com slash culty resources.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_07]: And don't miss Sarah's Ted talk called how cult literate are you great

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_07]: stuff.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_08]: A little bit culty is a trace one 20 production executive produced by Sarah

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Edmondson and Anthony Nipty aims in collaboration with producer,

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Will Rutherford at citizens of sound and our co-creator and show chaplain

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_08]: slash bodyguard just temple tardy and our theme song cultivated is by

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_08]: John Bryant.