Press Replay: Robert Gavin on the NXIVM Trials

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to snow basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:27] The views and opinions expressed by a little bit culty are those of the hosts, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast. No they don't. Any of the ridiculously thought provoking content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors,

[00:00:41] or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything. Also we're not Dr. Psychologists or her supreme holiness, Gwyneth Peltrow. GOOP!

[00:00:53] We're just two mortals, trying to make a gluten free, holistically helpful podcast that helps informs and entertains, and maybe moisturizes silky silky smooth. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here. And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC

[00:01:21] A podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side. We've been there, and back again. A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult, and then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge.

[00:01:33] And the whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow, now in its second season. I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Skard, the true story of how I escaped next to him, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:45] Look at us, couple married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night, or we interview experts and advocates in things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe. We gotta schedule that, that's separate.

[00:01:59] So it's two days? We gotta hang out? We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium, still on that journey, and we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:10] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics from everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level market. This stuff really is everywhere.

[00:02:23] The Cultiverse just keeps on expanding, and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com Welcome back everybody. We got the Gavin on.

[00:02:56] The Gavin? Is that your name for him? Yeah, he's calling him the Gavin, the RG. So we're gonna keep this intro short and tight because we have a long episode with somebody who we feel is an expert, not a survivor, but an expert.

[00:03:10] Robert Evans once said, there are three sides to every story. My side, your side, and the truth. Who's Robert Evans? It's Catherine Oxenberg's ex-husband. 48 hours they're married. That's all he's known for? Well, he was a producer in Hollywood, produced Chinatown. He was one of his first ones.

[00:03:26] There's a documentary called The Kid Stays In The Picture. Well thankfully for us, Nippy has learned that when it comes to him and me, my side of the story, pretty much always right. You know what happens when you're always right, Sarah? You can't learn. Right. Thank you, Vanguard.

[00:03:39] I'm not there, but for the most part in life, there isn't always one side. That's 100% correct or truthful all the time. That's where objective third parties come in. I'm kidding, Nippy. You're right sometimes, but whether you love it or hate it,

[00:03:52] the press has been perhaps the most crucial third party for world happening since, well, whenever the press was invented and of course there's no shortage of fake news out there. The main goal of the press is to, A, keep us informed about the Kardashians every move

[00:04:06] and B, keep society honest, investigating everything from corrupt governments to those cute little cliques we like to call cults. I'm happy to say I've never seen an episode of the Kardashians. I don't even know who the Kardashians are. I'm going to be honest. I don't have time.

[00:04:21] Are you being honest, son? You've never heard of the Kardashians? I mean, I've heard of them, but I don't know what they do or what the fuss is about. But we have so much cult content to adjust on a daily basis.

[00:04:30] They're the group of people that have basically proved to the world that attention is the best commodity for people right now. Anyway, I'll add it to my list. Okay. So Robert Gavin has been a news reporter for 28 years, having also worked for two years as an editor.

[00:04:45] Originally from Staten Island, Gavin began his career by covering the New York City Police and Fire Departments, the New York State Capitol, state and federal courts, various murder trials and cases involving terrorism, the mafia, street gangs, and political corruption. Does he look familiar to you, Nipi? Yes, Sarah.

[00:05:01] Did you meet him in person? I might have. Well, you were right this time. Rob Gavin began covering Nexium in 2005, which is also the year that I started. Coincidence? I think not. He was the editor at The Times Union, which has landed him on Dateline, Vice TV,

[00:05:15] and of course HBO's The Vow, the V-O-W. Robert's role in Nexium trials and their coverage has been a crucial part of bringing down Keith Reneary. And in general, there is so much to say about how important it is for the depressed to be getting these stories.

[00:05:27] Stories like the ones you hear in this podcast out to the public. And he has his own podcast, perfect for all you Nexium nerds out there called Nexium on Trial, which we'll put in our show notes. And we will be talking about in this episode.

[00:05:40] So everything comes full circle. And let it be known that one of my favorite interviews that I did with you, Nipi, is our episode on his podcast, which they ended up calling... Desperation is a stinky cologne. That was great.

[00:05:53] Matt is a direct quote from Nipi Ames in regards to how he feels about people who are still loyal. Ah, you know. So with this full circle episode, we would like to welcome to a little bit culty Rob Gavin. The RG. Rob Gavin.

[00:06:19] How you doing? It's good to be here finally. Welcome to a little bit culty. Yes, finally. Yeah. I feel like I'm a little bit spazzy because it took me so long to get on his technical. It was very... I'm very technically uncool, I guess.

[00:06:32] We're a little bit patient as well. Yeah, you guys are a lot of bit patient because I feel like I was... I think I need some personal growth training and how to use the internet. You know, I know a program that's about five days long

[00:06:44] and for the low price of 2160, you can work through your limitations around... Or you can just get a buck. Rob, what would it be worth to you if you could evolve all of your... We should take... We should take...

[00:07:01] If I could just do this, I'm willing to pay at least $70,000 a day. That's my final offer. You should take Rob through a five-day. I mean, it's funny, like I could sit there and joke around, but there's so many people that, you know, as you guys know,

[00:07:14] better than anybody who went into ESP, Nexium, with such great intentions and hoping that it was going to turn their life around. And for many people, it was something that helped them. And for a lot of other people, it seemed...

[00:07:29] And you obviously know this a lot better than I do, but the further they got into it, all of a sudden what they had in mind and what Keith Ranieri had in mind were two very different things. Very true. This is true. Sadly for all of us.

[00:07:43] But you know what? Before we get into your thoughts on this, which we obviously want to know, for our audience who might not be as Nexium nerdy as everybody is, as we are anyway, tell us a little bit about your history with the company, how you got involved.

[00:07:59] Like the cliff notes of Rob Gavin meets Nexium. Yeah. No, thanks so much. And again, thank you so much for having me here. Very happy to be here. So my first experience with Nexium was after I got to the Times Union in Albany.

[00:08:12] I mean, I had been a reporter. I mean, I've now been doing this about 28 years and I had worked in New York City, my hometown of Staten Island and also covered the state capital which brought me to Albany. And to make a long story short,

[00:08:25] I ended up working at the Times Union as an editor. And one of the people I supervised was a reporter by the name of Dennis Yusko. People who are familiar with Nexium and ESP will know that it was Dennis who was the first reporter that I'm aware of

[00:08:41] whoever wrote about Nexium. And it was about plans for before the Saratoga County Planning Board to build some sort of almost like a commune right there on the Mohawk River. And as time went on, Dennis covered more and more of Nexium.

[00:08:56] He thought there was something going on there. He had to fight. I mean, it wasn't like, you know, the day one he went in and said, oh my God, this is gonna be this huge story. So Dennis covered the early part of Nexium

[00:09:08] and then covered what we now know to be V-Week. And I, my first, my first impression was like, well, this is different. I'm like, what is this group? I remember a copy editor at the TU saying, oh another Nexium story. I love Nexium stories.

[00:09:25] And I was like, what's Nexium? And I didn't know how to pronounce it. I'm like, what is this group? But early on, some of the people that are now well out of Nexium were being quoted in stories defending it. And those are people who became definite victims

[00:09:40] of Nexium too. And maybe went in with the right reasons and are now out. This is probably like 2005, 2006. Dennis had been covering it since 2003. Over the years, I went back to reporting in 2007 and I started at times being familiar as everybody listening to this is aware,

[00:09:59] Nexium and the court system are very familiar with one another through the litigation. And there was litigation I covered going back at least as far back as I wanna say 2014, if not before that, in which there were lawsuits against certain people for allegations

[00:10:17] that they had gone into Nexium's private servers and computer trespassing. And there was a special prosecutor and I covered some of that case. And actually in 2012, get a little bit into the weeds, there was a race for district attorney in Albany County. And the candidate in the primary

[00:10:37] was guy named Lee Kinlan. And Lee used as part of his campaign, criticized the incumbent David Sores, because David had let Kristen Keith basically work in his office as a victim because Nexium in that case was being called the victim of the defendants including I think

[00:10:55] at the time they were on to say Joe O'Hara and other people at the time. Now that case ended up being dismissed, but at the time there were questions raised of like why is this current DA not doing anything about a quote unquote cult,

[00:11:09] why is he letting someone work there? I mean, and that's 2012. And the part that is still amazing to me, even though I was aware of Nexium and had written about it to an extent, I like everybody else read Secrets of Nexium.

[00:11:23] I was aware of the thing coming out. And when the series Secrets of Nexium came out and that's the series with Jim Adotto, Jennifer Gish worked on it, that we put out in February of 2012, when that came out, I said to myself,

[00:11:40] this is going to be an indictment within six months. I'm like there's no way that this group is surviving this. I mean, I knew a lot about Reneary, we had heard, and what I've talked to other reporters, but that was an eye-opener to me.

[00:11:53] And I was like wow, this is way beyond what I had even thought. And as everybody now knows, there was not an indictment in six months. In fact, it went the other way. I mean, it became more empowered and more powerful

[00:12:08] and really stood in there and flexed his muscles and got worse if you want to say. And the reality is that DOS, as we now know, as the government said at court, started in what, 2015? So three years later, you have what's now known as probably the most egregious,

[00:12:28] one of the most egregious parts of Keith Reneary's crimes is DOS. But at the time that series came out, you still had a couple of more months of, you know, Daniela still being kept in a room in Knox Woods.

[00:12:39] And I mean, to me, the part I constantly think about, because I'm in that area all the time and I drive around and I'm like man, how many times was I through this area? How many times was I right on, you know, was it,

[00:12:51] Fred the Butcher or was any of these places? And I was literally right there and this woman was like in a room a few blocks away from me. And how many times did we, you know, run into people? And there was a lot.

[00:13:04] I mean, it was, I think next year, it wasn't a secret, but I think it was an open secret that how relentless they could be against people, how quick they could be to go after people. And I think, I don't think there's any question.

[00:13:16] People were reluctant to go after them because of that fear of litigation. They were hooked up with, it seems, a huge number of attorneys in the Albany area, powerful attorneys, they had money. And I think there was that fear of, do you want a cult coming after you?

[00:13:31] And as a reporter, I can tell you, there's always that thing you're going to hear from a family member or a lover or a friend that oh, they're going to come after you. I mean, I used to write about the mafia, you know,

[00:13:43] in Staten Island and I've written about gangs, politics, and I can't tell you how many times people will say, oh, they're going to come after you. And as a reporter, you just kind of like, what? You have a job to do. You don't think about that.

[00:13:58] But you know, the historical, I guess, human nature would be, oh, someone's going to come after me and they're going to, they're going to come after you physically, right? Or they're going to try to scare you somehow. But next year went after people's finances.

[00:14:09] They went after people bank records. They went after people to ruin people through trumped up charges. So when you think about that and the things that I know, Sarah, you're all too familiar with that because it happened to you. People, them trying to set you up,

[00:14:24] you know, all because you were a whistleblower. And that to me is way more terrifying because it's not something that you think about. I mean, when you consider the fact that Nancy Salisman's basement that there were records of quote unquote enemies of federal judges,

[00:14:41] I mean, that is something, there's hardcore criminals that wouldn't do that. That wouldn't go after federal judges just out of their own fears that they're never going to get out of prison if they do that. And, you know, if you look at Keith Reneary now serving 120 years

[00:14:58] in prison, and I think there's sort of been this, I think in a lot of ways there's so much attention paid to DOS and rightfully so. I mean, the crimes are horrific. You're talking about sex crimes. You're talking about victimization of underage victims.

[00:15:15] You know, obviously a 15-year-old girl, but the financial crimes that the terrorism, so to speak, as some have called it by litigation, trying to get people charged with crimes to the court system and then what's happening now, you see next year's current attorney and attorneys,

[00:15:32] you know, to the extent next year is still around, have now decided to adopt the hey, we're victims of the court system. The court system is unjust. I mean, look, I mean, everyone has a right to make their case,

[00:15:43] but I think to a lot of people who have been either in next year or out or were observing it, it's like kind of like, you use this system to your advantage and now that it doesn't work, you know,

[00:15:55] you're like, oh my God, the court system is unjust. Make it stop. Yeah, the irony there is certainly not lost on us and also the fact that in the main tenet, as we all know of next year, there's no victims but now they're victims of this unjust system.

[00:16:14] It's amazing. Isn't that amazing? I know there's that, you know, there are no victims, there are no ultimate victims and anybody who listens to, whether it's on Twitter, whether it's in court papers, whether it's the words of Keith Reneary,

[00:16:27] he's unquestionably made himself up to be an absolute victim of the US government. And I think for the people who, you know, taught classes and went through those classes, they got to be like, you know, obviously as someone, you know, who ran this with intentions that,

[00:16:42] you know, I think a lot of people, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, I think most people went in next to him with a one notable exception, Keith Reneary, with good intentions. For sure, yes.

[00:16:53] They went in hoping to make the world a better place or make, you know, find something about themselves and I think that's one of the things that's really disturbing about this case is it's a betrayal. You're getting people to open up looking for help

[00:17:07] and they're using it as quote unquote collateral or whatever you want to call it against them. And that's long before we even get into DOS or anything like that. You know, I just think that so many of the women that were with Keith, when you hear them talk

[00:17:20] and you hear the experiences that they went through who were not in DOS, went through many of the same things. The psychological torture, the stories are all the same. Yeah. I actually noticed that was a comment on your podcast, Nextium On Trial, which we want to talk about

[00:17:37] and that was a comment that was made from you and your team on the podcast, your little trio there which was just great commenting on how what was revealed to be the truth of DOS was going on far before DOS was even a thing.

[00:17:51] It was just how he was with the women. It was just more fortified as a system and a number of people reached out that escaped. I won't say names here but one of his harem members that left shortly after we got there

[00:18:05] reached out and said what she read about DOS described her time as a member of his harem before this would have been like I think she left in around 2010 maybe? She left way before even DOS was a thing.

[00:18:18] Even we had one friend who left a long time ago said that he was poking her on Facebook and all the, like I saw that consistently like she was going on Facebook and just trying to have these what looked like benign conversations about their growth and their talents

[00:18:35] and bringing them to Albany, the process was the same. It's almost like a grooming of some kind and I think that's a word for a lot of people that they're not sure what it means and they'll say what does that mean to groom? Well, it means the process

[00:18:47] someone setting someone up for what they plan on doing and we saw it with Daniella. I use the term sexually involved but it's a term I almost not comfortable using because you have these are teenage girls they were, I'll use the term groomed

[00:19:02] so by the time they were involved with Keith I think the word involved almost has a sense of consent with it and I don't think, you know, certainly at the age of 15 I don't think anybody can say that her younger sister that that's consent

[00:19:15] and we're familiar with the trial so we saw the text messages between them and I think the toughest part I think when you look at these arguments now being made that Keith is a victim of being framed and the argument that he had this tempering going on

[00:19:32] look, I mean he can certainly make that argument and the courts can are I'm not here to make any judgments on things that have not been judged but certainly I will say that the argument to make that claim anybody who's saying like it's a fact

[00:19:45] oh my god and there's people who were saying like it is an absolute fact that expert testimony from someone who's being paid for it somehow that's just absolute that's gospel take it fact this is what happened the person who was the unquestionable victim of that sex crime

[00:20:03] you know of the child pornography count she says he did it so I mean you have an expert saying this didn't happen but she says it did oh but Rob she wasn't under oath when she said it therefore she must be lying well it's their crying coercive control

[00:20:19] for the admission of abuse and not recognizing that to your point about grooming it wasn't grooming it was coercive control that's what Keith was doing the entire time he was abusing you up pretending that you were agreeing to it and it's just bullshit

[00:20:33] yeah it's almost like in many ways this isn't a strong enough word for it but it's like a con it's a huge con and it's look over here while I'm doing this and then it's involving really some really sick things you know you're talking about

[00:20:45] there's a degree of sadistic sort of behavior there I think with Keith it's almost like the kid who wants to tear the wings off the bug you know or the fly and you know wants to enjoy it and we know this from testimony where he tells Mark

[00:21:01] the story about the psychopath and the student and then at the end it was the teacher who was the psychopath I think there's a degree with Keith where he's kind of telling you who he is and we saw it on the vow

[00:21:15] I don't think our audience knows so you were involved in the times union and then how did you get picked to cover the trial because you're one of the very few journalists Sarah Berman and you correct Sarah Berman, me definitely I would say Sonia Moggy from the CNN

[00:21:31] okay so how did you get chosen tell us about walk us through what the trial was like all six weeks please Rob for me I can tell you we had a number of reporters covering Axiom over the years and I've been the court reporter since 2007

[00:21:45] but when this went to case in 2018 I had been covering some of the federal court cases in Manhattan I covered some of the higher profile cases including Albany Joe Bruno's I covered both of his trials I covered a number of cases and starting on say 2018 there was

[00:22:03] a couple of political corruption cases including Joe Pococo the Buffalo Billion case and then Axiom was coming up the next year and I absolutely was interested in covering that and as the court reporter I said look I want to cover this

[00:22:19] and you know when we talked about it and they agreed I should cover it we had other people who had done a lot of really good work on it Brendan Lyons, Jim Medotto they mentioned Dennis Yusko Jennifer Gish had done a lot of writing with it

[00:22:33] as of 2018-2019 I've been the primary court reporter for the TU and I had been writing about it so I want to say around March April 2019 or maybe even before that we had a conversation about how I was going to go down and cover it

[00:22:51] so I was preparing for a few months before that certainly by April I remember going down at a pre-trial hearing and you know even being familiar with the case I wasn't entirely sure what to expect because I had been covering parts of the case

[00:23:05] for over a year before that directly I covered in 2018 I covered Allison Mack's first appearance in fact her mother was right in front of me in court and then I covered a couple other trials hearings in 2018 that's when everybody at that point nobody really

[00:23:23] had pled, I mean actually some of the charges had not actually been filed yet until the summer of 2018 that's the superseding indictment I got there as far as Brooklyn goes in April and then full time the trial started in May, I was one of the few people who

[00:23:39] was there every day, Sarah Berman was definitely there every day, Sony was there every day, people daily news, near post, near times were there every day it was I'll say, I've covered a lot of trials over the years going back

[00:23:53] I don't want to give away my age but I covered one of the Peter Gotti trials in 2004 so I've been covered trials for a long time but this was this was one of those trials where it's so big you have an overflow

[00:24:09] where they want to put other people you know so you got to get there early you want to make sure that the Japanese know you and this was such a high profile trial so when you go into a federal courthouse you got to go through metal detector

[00:24:23] as I think most people know but the Keith Reneary trial was so high profile it actually had the same security as earlier that year when El Chapo was on trial there's a second metal detector outside court which is very very unique, I can't think of another

[00:24:39] trial I've ever covered where they had that so not only do you have to go through one but two metal detectors so Keith Reneary got the same type of security as El Chapo which is kind of amazing I guess if you're a criminal maybe that's something

[00:24:55] to brag about opening statements they were intense they didn't follow the typical like most federal trials if you've covered a lot of federal trials and if there's any federal prosecutors listening I think they'll know what I'm talking about here it's almost every single case

[00:25:13] the opening statement will be this is a case about insert your crime this is a case about greed this is a case about theft blah blah wasn't like that with Nexium Tanya Hajjar who did the opening statement she really told the story and opened up this world

[00:25:31] of the three sisters and how they had all had different experiences within Nexium and they told the story of how basically Keith Reneary had taken advantage of them and branched out from there to talk about the case and I thought it was a very powerful opening

[00:25:47] and really showed people if you didn't know what this case was about that's what this case was about and Keith was sitting there and everyday Keith Reneary had he had a sweater and he had his little tie on so he had basically a different color

[00:26:05] like this here and then there would be the tie there and he looked very preppy so the pictures you see of Keith Reneary where he's got the long hair and I think there's even video of Keith where he refers to himself as looking like a

[00:26:19] cult leader with long hair but Keith at trial he looked like a college professor from the 80s he's always a few decades behind doesn't he yeah I think that's probably true he had his attorneys there he had Mark Agnephilo he had Paul Darinassian and then there was also

[00:26:39] two other attorneys who were both women there and Daniel Smith but I mean he had a lot of attorneys and I think when the trial starts the very first witness they called was a woman who had been in DOS

[00:26:51] I'm not going to say her name because I don't know how open she is about going public but she had been in DOS married by the way yes she was married woman who had been in DOS in that room who had been there

[00:27:05] it was clear she did not want to be there I was there wait Nippy you were there I was there for the first three days of the trial and then I left right after the metadata wait so did you guys meet Nippy and Rob did you guys meet

[00:27:21] I think we did but it was so I think the second or third day I met you in the park I think I passed you in the park I was laying in the park house it was a lot of people around I mean it was a jam-packed courtroom

[00:27:33] yeah because I mean honestly I wasn't until recently that I even mentioned Daniela because to me I didn't want to identify her sister but now they're all public so it's kind of like you know it was strange for me the fact that the names were being mentioned

[00:27:47] I thought that was kind of weird and not in court but in that people were mentioning it in print that was unusual that's not something I would have typically ever done I didn't do it I didn't even mention any of the names this is the golden age

[00:28:01] of cult recovery the more we speak up and share our stories the more we realize we are not alone your voice and your story can empower others this is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I Got Out movement

[00:28:19] learn more at IGotOut.org Meals bring people together but for many families fighting their next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through January 31st

[00:28:42] you can purchase an icon in-store or online or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp

[00:28:58] what are your self-care non-negotiables? maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting 8 hours of sleep that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:29:14] and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside in nature hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great

[00:29:26] therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority I get so much out of it

[00:29:36] it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people

[00:29:46] you know what I mean? Thanks Therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give BetterHelp a try it's up to you just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge

[00:30:00] look even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy day with BetterHelp visit betterhelp.com slash culty today

[00:30:16] to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp H-E-L-P dot com slash culty you revealed that Keith went down on her and she had to talk about that in a trial I thought for sure similarly to how I thought when watching the van we'll get to this later

[00:30:34] that that would certainly be the straw that broke the camel's back for people who are still loyal or at the very least have the appropriate effect on them alas it's astounding there were many points of that trial where you would think anybody hearing it

[00:30:50] would be like are you kidding me every day and I think Nipi knows this from being there it was like every moment every day you'd say well I can't get any stranger and it would get stranger I remember one day being there

[00:31:04] and I thought it was going to be a procedural witness this is just going to be a witness to lay down some kind of foundation and it was the guy from excessive restraints or whatever I'm probably mispronouncing the name and they start showing pictures of like you know

[00:31:22] dog colors and there's like chains and you know dungeons and we're just looking at each other like I don't think we can say this on the air but we're like what the you can say anything you can let it rip

[00:31:36] here Rob this is not the times union podcast okay I was just like what the fuck is going on here it was bizarre and to put it mildly I was sitting there like why are we seeing this and party is like I don't know if I want to

[00:31:50] know why we're seeing this but yeah I could laugh but it was a very serious thing at being the foundation was being laid for and that was for when Lauren Salisman would get up there and Lauren would say that she didn't want to be

[00:32:04] in the cage and be punished for quote unquote indiscretions by Keith Ranieri I mean what if you think about it on the surface like you're like what part of that we're gonna put a cage in a strange house here in you know Sarasota County

[00:32:18] New York which is going to be our house you know and if you do something Keith doesn't want you're going to be punished I mean I think in a lot of ways you can make the case that Keith seems to really excel

[00:32:30] at getting people to do things that they would never want to do and there's things that have come out of that case that I don't think a lot of people may not be aware of I mean including the fact that there was testimony from India

[00:32:42] from Alistair Berge that Keith had himself and also directed Alison Mack to use the N word to a black woman in DOS and Michelle Hatchet which is your racism and it's just horrendous but as far as when you hear things in next to him

[00:32:58] it just kind of gets lost in the shuffle almost like you know the quote unquote enemies in Nancy's basement there's all these parts of this case that could just in and of themselves are appalling but when you hear everything it's very hard for

[00:33:12] a lot of it to overshadow other parts of it but I do think the branding and I think the fact that people were quote unquote slaves does I think that's it did get a lot of attention because it's it's bizarre but I think I think Nipi will

[00:33:26] support me on this in court as bizarre as the case probably sounded to people reading it stranger in person you know there was a lot of things there you know there's a lot of testimony in court sometimes where you hear

[00:33:38] someone saying something and they're like well you know we're gonna allege this person said this or the police officer said that he said this but in next to him we heard Keith saying so yes it's alleged but we heard tape of Keith Reneary telling

[00:33:52] Alison Mack what he wanted women to say when they were being physically we heard his voice over and over again so it's one of those cases where the crew you're gonna believe me or you're lying eyes and ears that's kind of I think why it was

[00:34:08] so hard for them to mount a defense I found that as time went on we did start seeing supporters of Keith Reneary in court I didn't really know who they were at first and then more and more they would they would appear there and honestly by the

[00:34:22] time you get to closing statements and I could talk about any witness because there was a lot of the you know witnesses were very powerful especially Daniela especially you know the actress Nicole I thought Lauren was I mean you want to talk about an effective witness she's about

[00:34:38] as effective a prosecution witness as I think I've seen in a case like that as far and I when I say a case like that because there aren't a lot of cases like next to him but in a racketeering case and I've covered

[00:34:48] organized crime trials and it shouldn't be lost on people that at the end of the day that's what Keith was charged with and that's what Tanya Hajjar and Moira Penza had said during their statements and opening an information that he

[00:35:02] is a crime boss and you sit there and you go crime boss well he sits there like he's an intellectual or his critics might say pseudo-intellectual but you know that's where he presents himself as but he's doing things that a crime boss does

[00:35:14] that's the con when you say that every day was like crazier and crazier do you have one or two particular moments that were like the craziest or anything that stands out other than what you shared to tell us is definitely a few of them that

[00:35:26] stand out one of them was when Daniela was talking about I mean she was talking about how at a point where Keith Reneary had not been speaking to her for months I've been avoiding her and accusing her of not doing what she should have been doing

[00:35:42] she falls asleep on the couch and she says he comes in and he hasn't spoken to her in months sees her there drops his pants while he thinks she's sleeping and basically and again you know he's in advance but this is what came out in court

[00:35:56] basically dropped his junk on her face for like you know X amount of missus sippy and just left it there and I remember her saying that and this the look of horror on her face I remember looking over at Reneary just thinking

[00:36:10] like are you kidding me the other one and this is not quite as I don't want to say it's any less appalling but it's lighter I guess in some ways and some ways maybe so there's testimony about Doss and the food habits

[00:36:26] I believe it was Lauren I could be wrong I think it was Lauren who testified this and if I'm wrong I apologize that you know might have been one of the other witnesses so there's testimony about the eating you know rules and you know what you can

[00:36:36] eat and can't eat so it comes out that Keith puts tells them they can't have anything to eat puts a pie in the refrigerator like apple pie or something and then puts a camera up there so when these women have to have like you know

[00:36:52] 500 calories or less a day this guy is putting like pie like right there and puts a camera and eventually one of them goes in has a slice Keith runs down and starts going going going going going going going going and making the oinky oinky noise

[00:37:08] after they did it and I just remember the way the testimony came out looking over at him and it just was like are you like could you really do that like what kind of a human being does this you know this sort of sadistic

[00:37:22] and you know in meanwhile came out that he's going to volleyball and they're showering him with chocolates and kisses it's not like Keith was you know based on everything we saw and I'm not wanting to talk myself here as far as

[00:37:36] I'm not the healthiest eater in the world but I think it's suffice to say Keith was not having less than 500 calories a day he was pudgy I know you haven't heard her episode with Karen and our audience has but I will just tell you there's another

[00:37:48] story in addition to that where she shares she and Keith set up the camera and then watch the footage together and saw Pam K. Fritz eating the cake she called it cake and then making out with Mariana on camera which then

[00:38:02] turned Keith on and then he went and had a threesome with them and left Karen in the living room so there's an addition to the story. Yeah there was a lot of testimony about Keith and threesome and yeah that I definitely definitely want to listen to Karen's

[00:38:16] podcast for sure what she was on there's a really appalling instance Daniella testifies about coming back and I think it's when she got back from Canada and Keith basically I don't want to say threesome but I don't know that she partook with this other person but basically he

[00:38:34] has her and her sister together and I remember she testifies and then she says that was Christmas and it's just like you know the horror of this situation I'll tell you the testimony of Daniella talking about trying to get out the fact that she was in the room

[00:38:50] the conversation about her dental problems the medical issues that were not being met the letters she wrote where she's writing in caps what the hell is wrong with you people I mean it's clear this is not something this woman's making up and then

[00:39:06] she talks about making it up route 9 at one point like near the Walmart nearly making it out and then goes back this person has nowhere she can go and I think part of the problem is that Keith set things up in a way so that

[00:39:20] I think he would I don't think he ever thought he would get caught I don't think you make videos of yourself and take the steps you take if you really think you're going to get caught and to be honest there was no reason given the fact that

[00:39:34] we the T.U. had written a huge series of articles on Nexium and Keith Reneary including the fact that he had sexual alleged sexual encounters with underage girl which by the way and I'm not trying to pick on someone who's still serving time here but

[00:39:52] Nancy Salisman during the vow in the second season talks about how oh my god we didn't know about this or at least gives that impression well this was all covered so this was known and it's not like he's a lower ranking member

[00:40:06] and a lot of people have told me when they were in Nexium they told us not to read you guys whatever if you were a lower ranking member I could kind of understand that you're being told what to do but Nancy was the president

[00:40:16] so you know she knew damn well what was in those articles so Nancy how she couldn't have known and what she was telling really the community that she was asking where the 17,000 people go well they left when child porn and branding was discovered

[00:40:36] FYI they didn't want to be associated with that but you were talking about how you didn't think it was possible that she didn't know about the sex like I said you have a huge series in 2012 about Keith Reneary being accused by multiple underaged girls of him sexually

[00:40:54] abusing them and I think if you're just sort of a regular student of Nexium you're someone who goes there and you have no reason not to believe what's being told you I think if they're saying don't read the paper, don't believe it I'm not saying that I wouldn't

[00:41:12] look at the paper but I understand why somebody might believe people telling them oh no there's a personal issue there, don't believe them blah blah blah but Nancy is the president of the company she knows Keith and in fact she was there at the beginning with him

[00:41:26] and when you're the president of the company are you not being told that this is being reported that this people out there saying the guy who you were involved with physically who's your business partner people saying he could be a pedophile

[00:41:38] and that doesn't you never hear of that I think that's a stress and you've probably seen the behaviors that the article is talking about oh yes and the fact that you reference the line in the Vow where Nancy says 17,000 people had good experiences where are they

[00:41:54] and this was something that my editor Casey Siler had mentioned a few times during our podcast but I think it's a legitimate thing to mention again is that I think one of the criticisms of the second season of the Vow is that

[00:42:06] the very last episode they did a decent job of showing really something I've been waiting to hear for the entire season and that is Keith and Nancy's words it's Keith's words which was the last thing I mean to get an idea of how

[00:42:20] powerful this is this is the last thing that jurors heard before they decided the case and that was Keith Reneary's own words talking about how young children are quote on quote perfectly happy having sex with adults and that it's quote on quote society

[00:42:36] that tells them they're wrong and you know we had earlier seen a video or heard Nancy speaking at a Genese meeting I don't think I need to tell your audience Genese was a woman's group within Nexium and she's at the Apropos restaurant on route 9 talking

[00:42:52] at a Genese meeting and she's parroting Keith's words and she's saying all those same words we later heard Keith say on video about quote on quote adult like children and let's say she never saw any of the other articles that came out about

[00:43:06] abuse let's say she never heard anything that language itself where you're saying children are perfectly happy having sex with adults I mean I don't think there's any context where you could read that and just not raise the question over whether this guy I don't know

[00:43:22] might have some pedophilia tendencies you know you're talking about age of consent in places being 12 which is what he said I mean I gotta be honest with you I've been covering courts a long time and I could be wrong I don't know where he's talking about

[00:43:36] the age of consent is 12 never heard of that you know and if there is lots of places I don't think anyone should ever go to hey there listener hope you're enjoying this episode and that you're taking deep breaths when we cover the

[00:43:50] enraging stuff that cult jerks are up to let it out as in the yoga practice inhale positivity exhale negativity that's for you Sarah we got this no hooking it out all you will hoaxers and if you need some helpful resources on the topic of cult recovery check out

[00:44:04] our website at a little bit culty.com and now here's a brief message from our sponsors the frankies were a picture perfect influencer family but everything wasn't as it seemed I just had a 12 year old boy appeared asking for help he's emaciated he's got tape around his legs

[00:44:43] Ruby Frankie is his own friend and he's been a part of the cult and he's been a part of the cult and he's been a part of the cult and he's been a part of the cult Ruby Frankie is his mom's name Infamous is covering

[00:44:59] Ruby Frankie the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts Rob can I jump in here for a second not as a defensive thing but because obviously Nancy but for somebody like myself

[00:45:20] or maybe somebody who was around I never thought that's what he was saying when you take a clip like that and you play it it's so obvious knowing what we know now it has to be said that he was much slicker

[00:45:34] than that he was much sneakier than that it was always in the context of we're doing thought experiments we are looking at boundaries and concepts around law and ethics and how do we determine these things like for example and then also consent

[00:45:54] like it's thrown in the mix with a bunch of stuff where we're all kind of sitting there going when's lunch you know what I mean? I'll add to that the examples he gave like you said through a bunch of them were extreme that's an extreme one

[00:46:08] but for him it was particularly designed to address the concerns of the people he was abusing who were in the room at the time so you might see it as like that's a fucked up example but there's one of many and I can understand the principle

[00:46:26] or the process he's asking us to evaluate but he's doing it for Mariana who might be uncomfortable for Danny who might be uncomfortable for Nancy who might be uncomfortable with what she's seeing he's doing it to minimize the abuse that he's doing

[00:46:42] remember he would come in with a curriculum the curriculum wasn't for us the curricular was to keep the people he was abusing comfortable with the abuse that was going on and then he would have to have them normalize it because we were peripheral and those were his targets

[00:46:56] that's a really good point I think he has a few people it's almost like a dog whistle you have a few people who you want to hear it my sense is that he had built up so much equity at that point

[00:47:08] that you think well he can't be all I know this guy he's not a pedophile he's just not as an example suffice to say Sarah and I didn't come out more prone to accepting sex and advocates for it right I think I speak for the

[00:47:22] quote 17,000 that went through right that Nancy lied to and I think Nancy had to be on board with that to keep everything that she had going I think that's what she ultimately was revealed in the vow but she couldn't all of a sudden do an about

[00:47:38] face and go wait Keith is this for the three underage girls that you're sleeping with right now I just don't and even if she did think that she couldn't do that she was too far in one thing that I am pretty convinced upon to is that

[00:47:52] after seeing some of the court filings and what not I do think Keith definitely victimized Nancy and I'm not trying to defend her I think she was probably subjected to some of the worst of him and there are things and even what came out

[00:48:08] in season two of the vow where she's talking about some of the things he would say and I know things that I heard other people there was some letters that were written which opened up to me a lot of circumstances in which the way he would talk

[00:48:22] to it was completely awful just absolutely awful worse than you know it was bombastique to say the least one of the things that you know that I put it in context or put it in the process that Sarah and I had

[00:48:34] to go through Sarah and I had to reconcile as did many other people what I call reconciling your delusion and that requires a certain amount of emotional bravery to go in and go oh my god I was complicit here and that sort of things we were peripheral

[00:48:46] and we were targeted differently than Keith the people in his inner circle have the most shrapnel in them and Nancy was in a position where head she could have kept the thing going and not been forced by the charges by maybe shame from other people to go in

[00:49:04] and go oh my god I was complicit here here and here really what I think the hard part is is reconciling you loud someone to treat you like shit for so long and I think once you do that I think what prevents people from doing that

[00:49:18] and admitting that they're in abusive regime and admitting that other people were abused is if you admit that other people were abused around you you have to admit that you were and I think that will keep certain people loyal and that's the hard thing to do

[00:49:32] it's a hard thing like the case that I had heard before this was a woman who stayed in a marriage that's traditionally the one that you know we all hear is why'd you stay why'd you stay why'd you say well I think this is very similar to that

[00:49:44] people feel like they can't leave an abusive relationship and then you gotta go own that you emptied all your years out and let someone treat you like shit and I think that's what the people that are still loyal haven't reconciled they're not willing to admit they're not emotionally

[00:50:00] brave enough to go fuck I let this happen and they don't recognize that once you swallow that pill that's the freedom because you can imagine the things we don't know that have happened I mean we'd be that was one of the things I always walk around with me

[00:50:16] the stuff that I think about the Nancy too isn't in the case of Nancy Salisman it's stuff she allowed him to do to her and the fact that he you know really the stuff he was able to inflict on the Lauren and I think in court watching Lauren

[00:50:32] testify it's similar to this Sylvie in this respect in that she clearly did not want to be there I mean and you could see this was someone and I know the judge got a lot of criticism for what he was saying and I think you can

[00:50:46] you could legally and he did make the legal case the kids attorney that the judge was out of line or whatever but if you're just looking at it from a human level and that you're taking the court aspect out of it yeah she I don't think anybody would

[00:51:00] sit there and say that this person was not completely emotionally unraveled on the witness stand and clearly you know is someone going to get like that over something that didn't happen I mean there are some parts of that testimony which I mean it was really ran the gamut

[00:51:16] from stuff that you just were like wow that's weird to stuff that was almost funny to stuff that was gut wrenching and I think specifically at the end I mean I thought she was a devastating witness for him. I was so grateful yeah so grateful that she testified

[00:51:30] if there was anything like she did everything in her power from my standpoint in terms of emotional bravery to redeem her own character I think maybe in the eyes of herself at least you know in spite of like everything that went down with us and the lies

[00:51:48] that were perpetrated after I saw how she was abused I had context and could understand a little bit and I think she did everything that she could to redeem herself by being emotionally brave and coughing up all the things that she had to go through

[00:52:00] to put Keith away. As far as walking the walk I mean I don't think and I know she got probation I don't know what more you could expect out of the witness than what the government got out of Lawrence Salisman

[00:52:10] I totally agree. I think there are times where people I mean I covered organized crime and I didn't cover this case but I saw this person testify I saw Sammy the Bull testify he's someone who had admitted to 19 murders and got like five years this wasn't a situation

[00:52:24] like that and it was as far as the level of closeness to the defendant but as far as like what she had done and what she got in return I mean she got five years probation but that testimony it opened the world of everything Keith had done

[00:52:42] in many facets across the board she was able to talk about his history she was able to talk about Doss she was able to talk about what it was like when he was arrested and that really I thought pretty incredibly devastating moment

[00:52:56] where she's basically ready to give it up for him give her life for him she's like I was there for Keith and then he's in a closet hiding and that's consistent with what I've heard about Keith I know of at least one person

[00:53:08] that went to you know we had a reporter who went to hand him court papers or something and he ended up running to the back of the line from what I understand so apparently that was not shocking to people

[00:53:18] who have dealt with Keith but I think it was shocking to Lawrence Salisman at that point in time I think everybody in that orbit will say that they needed some time to process what happened and to go through like what Nippy's talking

[00:53:30] about here about could I have done something more I think for Nancy it's the fact that in addition to herself it was that you know her kids got into next to and obviously Lauren got heavily involved and it was a career

[00:53:44] and it was a good thing on the surface but then you look at the damage and it's I think that's very tough and I but I do think the vow they didn't have that Keith Morrison type person there to go hey you kill him

[00:53:58] kind of thing but I was happy that they played the tape of Keith making those comments so there was able to show and I think they did ask Nancy why did you make those comments because that's the part that's the part I think for people

[00:54:12] watching are going to go what the hell like how can you make these comments and I think it's kind of like what you're saying like he had been laying out those words that you say for certain people I think as far as Nancy goes that's going back to

[00:54:24] 98 he's been doing that maybe before that you sat through every day of the trial and the vows season 2 as we know is so trial focused how do you feel the filmmakers did in terms of capturing not so much necessarily the facts because obviously

[00:54:40] they can't get six weeks of trial into six episodes but the feel or the main points or the vibe of the thing. You know I think it was tough there were things that they sort of made seem when quicker than they actually did

[00:54:54] there were things that took over a long period of time and that happens in movies that happens when you make a book into a movie or whatever I think Emily Saul did a good job of kind of talking about the perspective of a reporter who was

[00:55:06] there but I also think that they could have done more it's tough because you're not in the courtroom so it's not like you know they're not allowed to go in the courtroom I thought they did a good job at the end

[00:55:14] they're having the voices right but I think it's just a very tough to recreate that I thought they did okay with it but you know I just don't know if it's possible to recreate as much as you can that feeling of dislike every day and that

[00:55:30] he's in the courtroom that's the other part of it he's there so you're hearing all this stuff and he's ten feet away from you and you're hearing all this and you gotta look over every few minutes ago I was always looking over to see how Keith

[00:55:40] reacted to this stuff and a lot of times he'd be like this he just would be like he'd be like staring and he'd have that look of like almost like and I don't think it's a coincidence Keith had this look of like he's just

[00:55:52] an observer and I think he's very good at kind of separating himself from the situation and he said that when he was sentenced when Keith was sentenced he had that oh well you know I do take responsibility as the leader of the community

[00:56:04] like I'm just okay well technically I'll take you know what as the leader of the community I take responsibility these were my people but it's sort of like well you're separating yourself from the fact that this is all about you and at the end of the day

[00:56:18] yeah there were six defendants and obviously Claire Brompton got a very long prison sentence and has just lost her appeal but at the end of the day the next scene story is all about Keith Reneary and these were his philosophies these were his thoughts it's a good point

[00:56:32] does next see him happen without Keith Reneary? Of course not I mean you could argue for sure it doesn't happen with that Claire Brompton too but as far as the impact that it had you know we're Nancy but at the end of the day it's about Keith

[00:56:44] and I think him being in court I think that's the tough part of the Val, trying to put you in the courtroom it's hard to that part of him being there the jury being there you know the jury's reaction to some of the things being said the

[00:57:00] fact that at some point you had the last they'll say this for sure I thought one of the to me was you had people hearing the summations and people who had at that point been at a DOS and they were hearing for the first time

[00:57:14] some of that stuff I know India-Oxsonberg was in court and I know at one point she saw Nicole the actors and they gave each other a hug in the hallway and I don't know when they had less seen each other before that

[00:57:26] they were in court hearing and you know that Nicole had testified but she hadn't heard the other testimony they're hearing his voice and you don't know how much of this they've ever heard before and they're hearing him tell

[00:57:38] Allison Mack you know this is how it's supposed to go and I thought that video that audio of Allison listening to him you know you hear that and you kind of feel for Allison she's just kind of like you know that's the part of that trial where he's

[00:57:52] saying how he thinks the branding should go and Allison is just going okay it's the most casual nonchalant nonchalant and it's just like he's giving like very specific and then he calms it at the end or something like that you guys do what you want

[00:58:06] it's like he's giving pinpoint directions and they're like oh whatever you guys wanted to along those lines something along those lines what about how he like totally gas lights her asks her what was important to you and then she tells him and then

[00:58:20] he goes well it's not just about you and she's like yeah she's like I know it's not just about me and she gets all hot and flustered I've been in that position with not necessarily him because we didn't have that kind of relationship but other high

[00:58:32] ranks and next to him where they would do something like that with me and I'd be like upset because I mean somewhere in me I knew that that wasn't right but I wasn't with it enough to go fuck you yeah that one astounded me when that

[00:58:46] came out in court I just sat there like the Keith for nearly just call her a nurse there's a few times I'd be sitting there and the reporters would be like yeah but he's specific because I've been around it he specifically said what was

[00:58:56] meaningful for you about the branding and then she shares it and he goes I'm not just talking about you like ask the whole group you think this is all about you she's like I know it's not about me there's no winning that was such a clear

[00:59:08] clear example of what it was like all the time all the time well I mean to me he's that when you hear him talk you can see he's someone who comes off well he's charismatic he comes off well he sounds like he's

[00:59:22] easy to talk to and he's that he's got a sense of humor so he's welcoming when people talk to him and I think that's the con is you think oh well this guy you know he just looks kind of like down he seems like a

[00:59:34] a tech guy maybe he's you know and then if he's being built up as the smartest guy in the world I still love the line where you know Mark is testifying I think it's the second day he talks about how built up Keith had been

[00:59:48] and then he goes this is the guy he's like it was kind of like this is him so he's built up and then they see him and he's just like oh you know he had been built up so much I talked to people

[01:00:00] who had been in there like it was like seeing a God I mean I think that's a Mark testified to if someone is talked up that much I mean it's just I think it's human nature you're gonna think they're I mean I remember

[01:00:10] when I was in high school I met people that were friends of my older brother and sister and they said oh this person so when you see them you're like oh my god I heard of this person oh my god they're so big and important

[01:00:20] they're really not but they've been built up for you you know and I think it's like that with Keith I think they had built him into something so big that he just has to basically go on autopilot at that point

[01:00:30] and he did and overall what were your other other thoughts from the vow knowing what you know like I love watching this stuff when you covered the trial and you're familiar with it you kind of can't get enough of it you just want to see

[01:00:42] especially things you hadn't seen before you know Nancy didn't testify so I was eager to hear anything I could from Nancy Salisman I was eager to hear there's always opinions and this particularly when there's people you've spoken to

[01:00:54] in person and then you talk to them on the air it's always you want to see how they come across it was interesting to me it's always been interesting hearing how people will say how people came across and I'd be like well actually they

[01:01:06] that's not how they actually were they were you know and it's not just this case but any case ever people get mad about people and then I'll be like oh they're actually not that bad or they'll say this person's good

[01:01:16] and I'll be like I don't know about that you know but I think in this case I think that you know a lot of the things that kind of stuck with me about this case whereas the fact that like I say every day there would be

[01:01:28] probably I probably could have written three or four stories a day from this case you would have something that was totally on your mind at noon and then at three you're like you almost forgot about it because like six other things came out

[01:01:38] it's so true I think one of the things too I think was when Keith was convicted to me it was like the scene I still remember was everybody across the street at the diner slash bar in Brooklyn and I don't think I've seen so many people

[01:01:54] who were you know it's almost like the end of Star Wars where like fireworks are going off because you had I think a lot of people for the first time could like relax that they felt this nightmare was finally becoming coming to an end and there were

[01:02:06] there were people in the restaurant slash bar who had been in DOS there were people who had been in an XCM they've been out of an XCM and I think they finally had something that I don't think a lot of them ever thought would happen had finally happened

[01:02:20] Keith was gone and he's not coming back and I think for people who are still loyal to him I think in a way I mean it's a credit maybe that there's not more people that are you know what I mean there was a powerful

[01:02:32] case it was a powerful enough people like you know such as yourself and I think other people out there have done a lot of talk about this so that people are not as in the dark as they were you know what I mean and they

[01:02:42] think Keith has come out one of the things that I think is kind of lost when you see people on Twitter and they you know as you know the social media in general can be accessible people just it's mostly that sports Twitter it's just people are just nasty

[01:02:54] so something as serious as this it's way worse but I thought it was interesting when you see someone for instance like Susan Dones has said very openly that and people then they people who are still loyal to Keith come out she's like we'll be there for them

[01:03:08] and she said that like absolutely as will we I think there's a fear of betraying Keith for whatever reason I'm sure there's fear I'm sure there is a lot of reason but you know you think about the people who were there and left

[01:03:22] I think at this point the longer you're in I guess the harder it is to leave but you got to think of the doubts that people have had and there's so many people who needed time needed several months before they can even talk about it

[01:03:34] the stuff that's happened or we don't know about since he's been convicted I mean who knows what's actually happened there I don't think and I could be wrong but you know I haven't heard that there's ever going to be another case brought

[01:03:44] I think initially I thought there could be I don't know that there's that desire I think one thing people don't realize is how much work it took to bring the first case I think Moira and Tanya are really pushed for it

[01:03:58] and obviously that was part of it too I think you know if there's part of an irony and Keith going down a trial it's that there's someone who you know has really been exposed as a real misogynist and there's these two women that are just

[01:04:10] you know along with Mark as well the other you know a prosecutor you know Mark Lesko presenting this devastating evidence you know the very kind of people he would try to take advantage of take classes and they're just absolutely just taking him down

[01:04:24] piece by piece. Tearing him a new one Yeah yeah and I think what we're seeing now is you're seeing last last gasp efforts and they hired an expert his name is I want to say Richard Kuiper I think his name is he's a former FBI agent

[01:04:38] he said that there was a tampering FBI tampering and they're you know they're pushing this now here's the thing where it gets complicated I think people are going to say if he lost his appeal and Keith did lose his appeal and it gets confusing if you're not

[01:04:50] used to the federal court system it's very confusing Keith Reneary lost his appeal Claire Bronfen lost his appeal I think Claire had some sort of credits she had some sort of program she has done so she's scheduled to be out on September 2nd 2025 she got nine months off

[01:05:06] yeah so she definitely got some time off there but she lost her appeal but next Tuesday Keith Reneary's attorney Joe Tully is going to be in the second circuit so people go wait a minute I thought he lost his appeal so gets a little

[01:05:20] bit into the weeds but they file what's known as a writ of mendamas I'm probably a mandamus I'm probably mispronouncing it but essentially that's something that asks the higher court to compel a lower court to do something and in this case they want the second circuit to compel

[01:05:38] Nicholas Beraufus who was the senior judge who presided over the Reneary trial they're saying he was biased against Keith and he needs to recuse himself and the reason they wanted him to recuse himself even though the trial is already over

[01:05:50] is they file what's known as a Rule 33 petition alleging all this stuff about you know that there was tampering and there was all this stuff and they want another judge to look at that and not Nicholas Beraufus who I think

[01:06:04] they look at it and say this guy doesn't like he's not going to grant that they want another judge to do it but before they can get another judge to even look at it they have to have the second circuit allow that and

[01:06:14] it'll be interesting to see the arguments they make on Tuesday because that same court just rejected those a lot of those same arguments I mean I know in the initial filing they were talking about Lauren Salisman being cut off the long sentence for Lauren

[01:06:30] some other things there I don't know that that's going to compel them are they moved by the evidence of the FBI agents saying that there is not tampering look I'm not going to say it's you know I don't have an opinion on it because I'll see what happens

[01:06:44] I haven't actually seen how a judge looks at that and views it but is it the first time a paid expert has come forward in a case where there's been a conviction and said hey I think we could look at it this no that does happen

[01:06:58] just last week I looked at one that was filled out on behalf of a convicted axe murderer in the Albany area named Chris Porco and there was a very well-known pathologist named Cyril Wecht who worked on the JFK assassination I want to say

[01:07:14] he signed one but it'll be up to the second circuit and I'll be happy to cover whatever comes out of that and I always try to give people a chance to talk I mean I've always reached out to the Renieres attorneys and whatnot and the other people

[01:07:28] who are still loyal to him say look if you want to talk to me I'm happy to talk to you civilly you know and if you want to say your point you can make your case in court but at the same time you know

[01:07:38] you expect people to somewhat be consistent too just in general there are certain things at this point are established and I think it's established that next you use the court system to their advantage so I do think if you go out there and you say

[01:07:52] you want a fairness in the justice system it's a reasonable question to ask well next to him tried to get Barbara Boucher charged with extortion because she wanted her money back they tried to get Saratoga County to bring charges I mean Sarah you can talk

[01:08:06] about this more than I can I mean they tried to get you charged Robert none of this goes down this way if Claire Bromfman doesn't get on a jet a month after we leave to try to have Sarah arrested it was an arms race

[01:08:20] at that point we were forced to defend ourselves so then we had to counter and then this thing escalated and then we were like we have to go the New York Times now we have to do something that vindicates us you know so there's something

[01:08:32] as a record and then the arms race was on and they just kept escalating and they they escalated while they were their leader was raping teenagers that's why this thing went down by the way Rob she came to try to get me arrested because I

[01:08:46] refused to give back the student files which had everyone's address and credit card information and I just like Barbara asked for the money that I was owed which was somewhere about between $60,000 and $80,000 that they owed me I mean they sank themselves next year would probably still be going

[01:09:06] and they're like okay Sarah here's a check for $80,000 good luck with your life now that probably wouldn't have happened isn't that interesting and it's very similar to what Rick Ross has said that's the cult expert has said that he thought the two biggest mistakes

[01:09:18] Keith Reneary has made was one was picking a fight was with Catherine Oxtenberg really really underestimated Catherine Oxtenberg and the and the levels that she was going to go to to help her daughter and which I think is funny Rick Ross likes to say he goes he overestimated

[01:09:36] me he decided to make Rick Ross like public enemy number one so to speak you know I don't know the rankings of Keith's enemies but I got to think you know Rick Ross has got to be pretty high up there right up there with

[01:09:48] you know Edgar Bromfman and Tony Natali and everybody up there that he's got up there in the Times Union but Rick Ross has said if you know why is he concerned I mean you're worried about becoming known as a cult

[01:10:00] but you're going to spend all this time going after a cult tracker I don't know maybe leave that one alone maybe just you know sit that one out Keith you know and that's the funny thing is like he wanted to make a that's the other part

[01:10:12] that came out of trial he told Mark he wanted to make a documentary showing that a cult didn't exist and it's just like you're trying too hard you know like you try you're trying so hard not to prove you're not a cult member

[01:10:24] most people don't have to prove they're not a cult so if you're trying that hard I don't know maybe there's a little bit of consciousness of guilt there you know I'm glad that Nexium is the gift that keeps on giving for you

[01:10:36] thank you so much for coming Rob you are an incredible guest and we appreciate all your hard work and journalism in this crazy culty space of the Nexium debacle thanks so much and keep up the good work so we'd love to hear everybody's thoughts on this episode

[01:11:03] this is really a Nexium trial deep dive for you Nexium nerds out there I hope you've enjoyed it and we asked Rob what his favorite word salad was of all the word salads and trust me he he's like a wealth of knowledge on these topics but he said

[01:11:21] that he thought the most disturbing ones were from about adult like children that's in the vow and society and the flip of the abuser victim stuff which we've already covered and that's in the vow he's also fond of the one where Keith spoke about DOS having political

[01:11:37] candidates and about people dying for his beliefs all of that sort of out there and the one that's also out there and sort of key in the vow season two is the evidence from trial which I'm sure was planted but there was a

[01:11:53] the transcripts were planted the transcripts were planted and the audio was put together by AI I'm sure but there is an audio recording of Keith and Allison on a walk on January 9th I believe this is 27 scene and it's 6.59 in the morning and this

[01:12:13] is the conversation you see in the vow where Keith Reneary is trying to get Allison to come up with on her own how the branding should go but the key line that you see in the vow is he says they should probably say that before they're held

[01:12:27] down so it doesn't seem like they're being coerced. So what we're going to do now is a word salad but I'm invited to guest and I'm going to start it off with Vanguard and they should probably say that before they're held down so it doesn't seem like

[01:12:42] they're being coerced. Okay I don't know those are just thoughts. So you've okay so you've done it so you can go there easier and all of you have done it not just you so I'm not just speaking to you although

[01:13:00] I am speaking to you I'm also speaking to others through you okay I think that's it for now. Do you have anything else? I think one of the things that was so significant was that that Manny said to me when we were doing the thing was that

[01:13:14] think of your master and your love for your master and feel the pain and link it to your master. Yeah because pain is how we know how much we love so we know the depth of our love through pain. Right. There's no other way in the human condition

[01:13:28] so that can be something that they said they say initially and they feel the pain think of that love right and the love is greater than the pain even right. That's the pain that the pain is given you a measure of the love

[01:13:46] and the love is even further than that so although you're not you know although my body may be burned or tortured however my love is stronger right and it is the love of saints it is the love of the purest being that walked the earth

[01:14:00] and that are able to hold love even above life itself along those lines you see you guys figure it out after I just fucking gave you Oh my god. This is a six page transcript people. That's just like enjoy prison asshole.

[01:14:18] I'll see if we can get this online somewhere Oh we can post it on our Patreon put it on our Patreon. Yeah in the show notes and on the Patreon. Thank you everybody for listening I hope you enjoyed that word salad reenactment. That should have been

[01:14:30] in the lifetime movie if they if they'd put that in the lifetime movie it would have been a good movie. I don't watch it twice. I don't watch it twice. Alright. Till next time Bye bye. Bye bye.

[01:15:16] If you want to see more of our podcast, podcast, podcast, podcast merch or list of our most recommended cult recovery resources visit our website at alilibitculti.com And for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir

[01:15:30] It's called Scarred. The True Story of High Escape Nexium the Cult that Bound My Life It's available on Amazon, Audible, Narrated by My Life and at most bookstores. Alilibit Culti is a talk house podcast and a Trace 120 production with writing, research and additional production

[01:15:46] support by senior producer Jess Tardy who are edited, mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of Citizens of Sound and our amazing theme song Cultivated is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin Thank you for listening