Quiet on Set: Kate Taylor on Nickelodeon’s Dark Side

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical,

[00:00:04] or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official

[00:00:08] policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group,

[00:00:12] club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:25] I'm Sarah Edmondson and I'm Anthony Air Quotes Nippy Ames

[00:00:29] and this is A Little Bit Culty. A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great

[00:00:34] thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real

[00:00:39] cult stories told directly by the people who live through them. Because we want you to learn a few

[00:00:44] things we've had to learn the hard way. Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into

[00:00:49] something culty, you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult.

[00:00:55] You better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:17] Welcome back to A Little Bit Culty everyone. Today we are diving into the dark side of Nickelodeon.

[00:01:23] Sometimes predators hide in plain sight, like on the set of your kids' favorite TV shows.

[00:01:28] Be warned that this episode explores the topic of child abuse. So please listen with care.

[00:01:33] Delving into the dark heart of the toxic and ultimately tragic culture on the set of

[00:01:39] some of the most popular late 90s to early 2000s Nickelodeon kids' shows.

[00:01:43] The whole awful mass has recently been brought to light in the Investigation Discovery

[00:01:48] docu-series Quiet On Set, the dark side of kids TV.

[00:01:52] It turns out that some of the same shows that launched the careers of mega stars like

[00:01:56] Ariana Grande, Amanda Bynes and Kenan Thompson also plunged some young actors into a lifetime of PTSD.

[00:02:04] Inspired by an expose originally reported by business insider journalist Kate Taylor,

[00:02:09] Quiet On Set reveals the heartbreaking ease with which a child predator named Brian Peck

[00:02:15] groomed and sexually abused at least one that we know of, young Nickelodeon cast member

[00:02:21] and got away with it. Well, he didn't get away with it, but you'll see.

[00:02:25] Despite some astonishingly overt problematic behavior, it went unaddressed for years.

[00:02:30] And incredibly, Brian Peck wasn't even the only pedophile on that set.

[00:02:35] The series also uncovers an on set environment teaming with gender and racial discrimination,

[00:02:40] sexual harassment, coercion, allegedly perpetrated by golden boy showrunner Dan Schneider.

[00:02:45] This all took place under the noses of parents and on the watch of network executives intent

[00:02:50] on promoting Schneider all the while counting their cash.

[00:02:54] Kate Taylor, who is also the executive producer of Quiet On Set,

[00:02:58] has worked as features writer for business insider for over eight years,

[00:03:01] exposing the nasty underbelly of epically toxic workplaces.

[00:03:06] We're looking at you, Brandy Melville, Subway and the set of America's next top model.

[00:03:10] Kate joins us today to discuss the Nickelodeon scandal,

[00:03:13] the impact of the series and the fraught path forward for Hollywood and child actors.

[00:03:18] How does something like this happen and how do we make damn sure it never happens again?

[00:03:23] How do we do more than just recover from this collective horror to make real lasting change

[00:03:28] happen? Much to discuss. Here's our chat about Quiet On Set with journalist Kate Taylor.

[00:03:48] Hey, Kate. Welcome to a little bit culty. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:03:52] I'm sure your life is just blowing up since you've exposed this whole

[00:03:56] shit show of a scandal. How are you doing, first of all, before we get into it all?

[00:04:01] It's been a wild, wild time of the last few weeks. I feel like I've been living with this kind of

[00:04:08] Nickelodeon, Dan Schneider weird reporting for two years now and it's just like been really

[00:04:17] an out-of-body experience seeing so much of what I've been reporting on and hearing about

[00:04:22] just reached such a wide audience. It's been really gratifying to see so many people respond to it,

[00:04:27] but also really, really surreal. I bet it's intense. Our audience certainly, even though it's not like

[00:04:34] a cult per se, reached out to us for a number of different reasons. As they do,

[00:04:39] God to watch this documentary and we're like, okay, it's on the list. As soon as we started

[00:04:42] watching, we were like, hey, holy shit. We're so mad. Our audience is educated to coercion.

[00:04:49] When they see coercive stuff, they let us know and then we go in with our acumen, if you will,

[00:04:55] and see it as well. How did you first hear about this? Tell us about your journey with this fiasco.

[00:05:01] In 2022, I was pitching some stuff to my editor and at that point there was already

[00:05:08] these online rumors about Dan Schneider where people were like, oh, what's up with the feet

[00:05:13] on these shows? What's up with these weird scenes? I went to my editor and I was like,

[00:05:19] this is a situation maybe where there's smoke, there's fire or maybe this guy just has the worst

[00:05:24] reputation for no reason and he should be vindicated and I should report on this and just be like,

[00:05:30] what's rumors? What's reality? I went from there and reached out to a ton of people who had worked

[00:05:35] on Nickelodeon shows as either child actors or as members of the crew or as writers.

[00:05:40] Pretty quickly it became clear that there were certain patterns of toxic behavior that,

[00:05:46] especially for the crew and writers, people who were adults at the time, were able to perceive

[00:05:52] and for the first time talk about for a lot of them. What are the first questions? How do you

[00:05:56] approach something like this? How do you vet it? You have rumor, you have maybe conjecture,

[00:06:01] but there's certain things that you feel are going on. How do you do it and what's the

[00:06:07] sensitivity that maybe you already had or had to develop over the course of inquiries?

[00:06:12] I think it was really, especially for my original article, it was a real balance of kind of looking

[00:06:20] and saying, okay, well, I am talking to some people who have had really negative experiences with

[00:06:26] this person or with Nickelodeon. I'm also talking to former child actors who have nothing but good

[00:06:31] things to say about Nickelodeon and Dan Schneider. So kind of going in and trying to be like,

[00:06:37] both of these things can be true and the situations with coercion usually are true. There

[00:06:41] are people who have global experiences and people who have great experiences and often

[00:06:46] those people who have had positive experiences are used to negate other people's negative

[00:06:51] experiences. Right, some people targeted, some people not. Yeah, so I think that that was

[00:06:55] something that was a little bit of a learning on my first investigation, my first article.

[00:07:00] Can you give sort of a summary of who these key players are in the story?

[00:07:05] Yeah, so when I started reporting on Nickelodeon and Dan Schneider, it was essentially an

[00:07:11] investigation into a certain era at Nickelodeon where you have Dan Schneider as the show creator

[00:07:17] and he created some of these shows that were massive hits for Nickelodeon in the late 90s,

[00:07:22] early 2000s. So he was a head writer on all that when it originally started, but

[00:07:27] he really kind of started building this empire of shows once he was creating them themselves.

[00:07:32] So he has The Amanda Show, Drake and Josh, I, Carly, Victoria, Zoe 101, and all these shows were

[00:07:39] really important and successful for Nickelodeon at the time. And all of them were kind of aimed

[00:07:45] at preteen audience. There's a little bit of variety, some are for a little bit older,

[00:07:49] some are a little younger, but it's a pretty preteen audience. And this is also the first

[00:07:55] time Disney Channel and Nickelodeon are aiming at that audience in a really, really big way.

[00:08:00] So Dan Schneider becomes really an important player at Nickelodeon in kind of building this

[00:08:07] empire of shows and kind of continuing to find really talented child actors who go on to become

[00:08:15] incredibly successful, whether that is Amanda Bynes, who was first on all that. And then on The

[00:08:19] Amanda Show, Ariana Grande is a great example who is on Victoria's now as one of the most

[00:08:24] famous pop stars in the world. So he has, Dan Schneider has a great talent for spotting young

[00:08:29] talent. But as you talk to more people, some people are uncomfortable with scenes in the shows that

[00:08:35] they now feel they're pretty sexualized. And then you also talk to people who work behind the

[00:08:40] scenes. And they kind of describe Dan Schneider as essentially a toxic abusive boss in the workplace.

[00:08:46] Like when you started, you knew one thing. By the end, you knew like so much more.

[00:08:50] What's that journey been like for you?

[00:08:52] The journey from starting reporting to writing my investigation to the documentary coming out has

[00:08:59] been really wild where I think that it has gone from something where it becomes looking into one

[00:09:05] person to trying to kind of look at a wider system, where it's not just one person was failing

[00:09:12] child actors. It was several people were either exploiting child actors, sexually abusing child

[00:09:18] actors or just not supporting child actors and creating an environment where they could be protected

[00:09:23] as well as they should be. So knowing this, what actions do you think can be taken by networks

[00:09:29] to protect the actors? And also for parents whose children want to get into acting?

[00:09:33] Something that some of the participants in the documentary have talked about is

[00:09:37] how helpful it would be to have a sort of liaison. And different people have talked to me and

[00:09:43] kind of described this as different roles. Basically someone who is, works with the parents

[00:09:48] on set to just advocate for these kids. Something that I think gets a bit muddled in child stardom

[00:09:56] is that many people around children are incentivized to just keep this kid working.

[00:10:03] Families become financially dependent on a kid and becomes really, really difficult

[00:10:09] for them to speak up and push back. And I think having someone who works directly with these families

[00:10:13] to explain the financial realities of the situation, whose sole job is to kind of protect these kids,

[00:10:19] that would be a big step forward. Another thing that we've talked about is just not allowing

[00:10:24] child predators to work in the industry. Yes. Shocking. Which I think is something

[00:10:29] that is not just networks. Like we've heard Nickelodeon has said they've made changes

[00:10:33] since this time when they had actual child predators working here. They've increased

[00:10:38] background checks. But yeah, I mean the national legislation around this, it is essentially that

[00:10:44] a convicted sex offender can work with young children as long as there is a parent or guardian

[00:10:49] on set. Which as we've seen in this does not always fix this problem.

[00:10:53] These predators are very skilled at separating families. We've done a lot of interviews where

[00:10:58] a child has been in a seemingly safe environment. We've done the Boy Scouts,

[00:11:02] we've done religion, we've done obviously Nickelodeon. And if you're a child predator and

[00:11:06] you know there's a volume of kids there, that seems to be a place that they're going to go.

[00:11:10] And it seems to me that you need to anticipate that this is where the predators are going to go.

[00:11:14] Hearing Drake Bell's story was appalling to see how this guy just doubled down to get what he

[00:11:20] wanted in front of the parents. So that's a hard thing to combat because parents,

[00:11:26] the same way Drake and his dad had a pretty healthy relationship and it was still vulnerable

[00:11:29] to this guy's manipulation skills, predatory skills really. You have to look at that.

[00:11:35] That's what they have. Right? Yeah, Drake is a great example of his dad did everything right.

[00:11:41] He went kind of to production and said, hey, I'm uncomfortable with this. And he was just dismissed.

[00:11:47] So I think that's something that a lot of people and people continue to say this watching Quiet

[00:11:51] On Set like where were the parents? And Drake's dad did everything a parent was supposed to do.

[00:11:57] If there were people in this situation who are kind of like, okay, here are the warning signs

[00:12:00] for grooming. If every time a child actor is working on these shows, kind of they were informed

[00:12:06] of these warning signs, I think that that could go a long way because I mean when you have someone

[00:12:12] who's good at manipulation, it is easy. And I think for parents, for coworkers,

[00:12:18] you want to see someone and be like, this is someone who just has genuine interest in my son

[00:12:22] in helping them mature and being a mentor. But when you kind of are told of these signs and

[00:12:27] say, hey, like, wow, this can seem like someone who's a nice person. These are also just typical

[00:12:32] hallmarks of grooming. It kind of will allow the red flags to become more apparent at times.

[00:12:37] Also, like such a clear thing for us to see how Peck dangled career opportunities. Where is

[00:12:43] he now by the way? Is he like in hiding I'm hoping or like what is he still out and about?

[00:12:48] He's not in prison or anything anymore. He is very difficult to get a hold of because he,

[00:12:53] while he continued to work after he was imprisoned for sexual abuse, he now is keeping a pretty

[00:13:01] low profile. The internet makes it so much easier for people to look up people who have been and

[00:13:06] convicted of these things. That's a great point. The internet makes it much easier to do some

[00:13:10] preliminary vetting, which brings up the question of the people who wrote letters of

[00:13:15] support for Peck. I've seen that some people have retracted their support. Has anyone doubled

[00:13:19] down that Peck is innocent? We haven't had people publicly doubling down, but I mean,

[00:13:24] we reached out to a number of big names who wrote letters of support. And not all of them have

[00:13:31] responded. James Marston, for example, still hasn't kind of released a statement around this,

[00:13:36] saying any further context around his writing a letter of support for Brian Peck. These

[00:13:41] letter writers met Peck themselves when they were teenagers. I believe James Marston met

[00:13:46] Brian Peck very, very early on in his career when he was still like an older teen. These are people who

[00:13:52] see Brian Peck as someone who was someone they met when they were very young and vulnerable. And I

[00:13:58] think it can be difficult to untangle those feelings of, oh, this was someone who was there for

[00:14:03] me when I was young versus this is someone who is praying on someone else when they were young.

[00:14:08] And we may never know. I believe after this documentary more people will come forward

[00:14:13] about Peck. This is not just Drake. He kicked the door down for that truth to be told.

[00:14:18] Yeah, it's, we will see. We will see if more people come forward. He has only been convicted

[00:14:23] of child sex abuse as it relates to Drake or not convicted. He pleaded no contest to child sex

[00:14:29] abuse as it was related to Drake, but there haven't been any other public allegations so far.

[00:14:36] But I mean, often in these cases you do see more people coming forward, either things related

[00:14:40] to Brian Peck or related to their own experiences as child actors with other predators in the industry.

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[00:17:15] We were both so shocked that he only got 16 months for such horrendous acts of sex abuse.

[00:17:19] And that it wasn't headlined more. Yeah that was something that I think Drake really struggled

[00:17:24] with at the time where he kind of was saying why wasn't TMZ writing about this,

[00:17:29] why wasn't this making major, major news? Have you looked into that?

[00:17:33] I think it's difficult to look into. We have no clear answers as to whether this was a cover-up

[00:17:39] or this was just pre-internet so TMZ was not as kind of like chasing down these leads in the

[00:17:45] way it might be now. I think that it's difficult to say if these were things that

[00:17:49] were purposeful or if it was just a different time. But yeah I think how we think about

[00:17:53] child predators in the children's entertainment industry has shifted because

[00:17:58] it was not something that was ever seen as like normal but we had these cases that were kind of

[00:18:05] swept under the rug. We're not receiving a ton of mainstream press when arrests were made at the

[00:18:10] time and I do genuinely think that that would not happen today.

[00:18:13] I agree. I know you said your DMs were pretty full. Have other people reached out to you

[00:18:17] with their story since without naming names of course? People have reached out and something

[00:18:21] that's been really depressing is that it's not just people in children's entertainment.

[00:18:25] I've had so many people across so many different fields saying we have a quiet onset in our industry

[00:18:30] as well where it's not just kind of Nickelodeon or not just Disney. It is across all of these

[00:18:36] different industries that involve children. There are so many different parents,

[00:18:40] kind of people who grew up in those saying oh can you look into this? Can you look into this?

[00:18:45] So yeah it's been an overwhelming response where it can be difficult thinking okay this is not

[00:18:51] a matter of a couple of bad apples. This is something where there are predators like this

[00:18:55] in many, many different fields that involve children. Yeah we've certainly seen that a lot on

[00:18:59] our podcast especially in sports. How do you take care of yourself in this because it's a lot.

[00:19:05] It's so traumatic. Yeah I mean it's something where I try when I am done reporting for the day

[00:19:10] to truly log off, be offline and if I'm reading books I tend towards things that are very

[00:19:18] kind of trashy. Trash novels, very low stress TV shows, a lot of great British bake-off vibes

[00:19:26] because yeah it's something where there's so many documentaries that I think they have a

[00:19:30] lot of commonalities and raise similar concerns to this but off the clock I am not watching those

[00:19:36] as much as maybe I could be. And how about Nickelodeon? Have you heard from them? Any

[00:19:41] of the executives? Yeah I mean we I reached out to Nickelodeon from my original article,

[00:19:46] the producers, the directors of the documentary reached out to them and I think that their

[00:19:52] pretty consistent statement through this has been like this was something that happened in the

[00:19:56] past but things are better now. Nickelodeon kind of cut ties with Dan Schneider in 2018 and yeah

[00:20:04] very very reasonable both in terms of PR and in terms of just wanting to feel like okay our

[00:20:09] current executives were not here when there were multiple child predators on set of these shows.

[00:20:15] So I think that there has been some changes made but I think that children's entertainment in

[00:20:20] general like it's not like things are 100% fixed today. I think that there's a lot of new ways

[00:20:28] to that children kind of can be put in harm's way or exploited something that the directors

[00:20:34] have quite unset and I've talked about is like child influencers there's even less

[00:20:38] regulation there than you would find on any network show now. Wow I don't know if you probably

[00:20:45] definitely do not know this but we do have a film and television background ourselves and for a moment

[00:20:50] I'm going to tell you about later but for a moment our son dabbled when he was so a couple

[00:20:55] roles like a three five seven and we never pushed it on him it was just like and I was

[00:21:00] very clear after seeing certain friends go through what just other fucked up things

[00:21:05] about being child actors like what it does for entitlement and feeling so special and

[00:21:09] the money I was just like I don't really want this for him but he had an opportunity we took it blah

[00:21:14] blah blah anyway we were on set of babysitters club he had a like a recurring role in the babysitters

[00:21:19] club and Nipi and I were just talking about like obviously but one of us was there the whole

[00:21:23] time yeah this is after next year okay I never was considering like I needed to protect him from

[00:21:29] predators I was like I just need to make sure he knows what he's doing you know that he

[00:21:33] goes pee in between takes you know and eat something and like does his homework

[00:21:38] and Nipi said he was and I was like I couldn't believe that I hadn't even after going through what

[00:21:42] we've gone through I wasn't like on alert for sexual abuse do you know what I mean I was just

[00:21:47] on alert for someone giving him too much attention inappropriately I'm also the kind of guy I

[00:21:51] doesn't want to sit with his back to the door in a restaurant and I actually consider what

[00:21:56] would happen if someone came in the gun and how I'd protect my family so that's where I go

[00:22:00] you're on it you're always like I know what you have to do in these situations which is really sad

[00:22:06] like I think that's so many even Drake who I've talked to about this he's like if my son wanted

[00:22:11] to be a child actor like I wouldn't want to say no like there were amazing things like

[00:22:16] the creative outlet of being able to act as a kid like and being able to perform and being able

[00:22:22] to kind of be in the music industry like he's like I really loved a lot of those things and I

[00:22:26] wouldn't want to tell my son he could never do that but it is a really really difficult environment

[00:22:33] yeah absolutely what would you say you don't have kids right I don't have kids at this point but

[00:22:38] I don't know I mean I think that for me I would hope that I would be able to find a situation where

[00:22:44] I would I don't know what I would do if there's so many factors where like I've talked to other

[00:22:50] former child actors who had been like oh it was an okay experience for me because of X reason like

[00:22:56] oh it was okay for me because I was on a show that was publicly funded like a PBS show and that was

[00:23:02] a different environment than this or like I was okay because my parents had worked in the industry so

[00:23:07] they needed what to look out for I don't think that there's like a one-size-fits-all solution but

[00:23:12] I do think like we don't allow child labor in other industries like what makes entertainment so

[00:23:18] different that's a really good point it's a very good point well I can answer that probably money

[00:23:24] oh yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah which is difficult to grapple with where it's like okay then

[00:23:30] then where does that leave us so I think it's there's no one like black and white solution

[00:23:35] but I think that it's helpful for everyone who's involved to continue grappling with these things

[00:23:40] and thinking about them yeah it's also organic too I mean I don't know if it's proprietary

[00:23:45] to Hollywood but it seems like that's where a lot of this rot is I'm not saying that if it

[00:23:49] wasn't in a different state it wouldn't exist there but to your point when you're talking

[00:23:53] about social influencers like there's always going to be something that's going to allow this to permeate

[00:23:58] and there needs to be a constant education about really where there's kids and a lot of kids

[00:24:04] expect predators to show up yeah I think that some people like good people who worked in children's

[00:24:09] entertainment I think it's easy to be a little in denial where you're saying well like I would

[00:24:14] never think about kids that way like that's that's so horrifying like I want to leave

[00:24:19] away with it I know because it's people want to believe that other people are decent people like

[00:24:24] they are to the point of like I call all these supporters instead of condemning the letters of

[00:24:29] support you might want to look at how effective he is in getting that support because one of the

[00:24:34] things with these predators and one of the things in our situation with Keith Reneary is people

[00:24:38] are like how how and they're quick to dismiss well how is the great thing to look at because

[00:24:43] a lot of intelligent people don't see it and there's a reason they don't see it because

[00:24:47] these guys are very very good and and Drake's dad seemed really on it as on it as I think I would have

[00:24:54] been like this doesn't seem right this doesn't seem right and still he was able to do it in their

[00:25:00] face so I think lending more credibility to how good these people are doing what they're doing

[00:25:06] ought to be the focus as opposed to condemning the people that fell for it when you say

[00:25:10] I think that for the average person watching the documentary that is really probably the most

[00:25:15] helpful perspective because when you say like oh I would never do that I would never write a letter

[00:25:21] of support for someone like that you become blind to the ways that you might be manipulated to doing

[00:25:27] something like that it's like saying like oh I would never fall for like a scam it makes scammers

[00:25:33] more powerful but on the other hand I also understand why for the victim someone like Drake

[00:25:39] yeah for sure these names pop up that's like feels like such a personal deep deep pain and

[00:25:45] new thing to grapple with I would be passed off and I would let every single one of them know it

[00:25:50] we've had people stay loyal to Keith Reneary for years and eventually they call us and it's you

[00:25:55] know it's one by one and it feels very vindicating but also healing cathartic and I hope that he has

[00:26:01] that same experience eventually and I'm sure he will you produced Quiet On Set as well correct

[00:26:07] yes I was one of the executive producers on Quiet On Set which was really an eye-opening

[00:26:11] experience for me because I'd never been involved in a documentary in that way before

[00:26:15] now that it's done and we're at this stage would you change anything now that you know what you know

[00:26:20] it's one of those things where you can revisit a million decisions in your mind which I often do

[00:26:25] after every story I write publishes and I think for a documentary there's even more decisions

[00:26:31] and more things to weigh I think that all I can do is kind of be really proud of what we made

[00:26:37] and kind of the product we were able to put out and the response it's been able to receive and I think

[00:26:42] yeah I think I would probably drive myself crazy if I was thinking about anything that I would

[00:26:46] change it's such a communal experience it takes so many people kind of being willing to be vulnerable

[00:26:53] to make something like this and I think that all the participants had to be really willing to

[00:26:59] kind of be vulnerable to share their stories and then all the people behind the scenes the

[00:27:04] directors Mary and Emma were both like incredibly just talented and hardworking and having this come

[00:27:12] together and then everyone from the people who are editing it everyone who's shooting it on the

[00:27:17] day on the set like it just it truly takes a village it's really really incredible to see

[00:27:22] how these things come together. And how long was it from start to finish? My article published

[00:27:27] at the end of the summer in 2022 and we began working on the documentary pretty soon after that.

[00:27:35] Just curious if like when you started to see the certain patterns with Dan did the term

[00:27:39] cult ever come up in your discussions or in your writing? That's really interesting it was

[00:27:45] it was more coercion I have another documentary that I've now worked with in Brandy Melville

[00:27:51] a documentary on that which the cult came up a lot when I was reporting that story you know

[00:27:56] about this really kind of exploitative teen retailer for Nickelodeon I think that the idea

[00:28:03] of cult came up a bit but it was almost less a cult following for Dan because even though he had a

[00:28:09] lot of employees who followed him from show to show I think that a lot of them went in with

[00:28:14] relatively nuanced understandings and kind of like it wasn't that everyone who worked

[00:28:20] with him was like oh this person is perfect so I think that it was a little bit more

[00:28:27] yeah more kind of coercion less cult to me at least. Yeah all cults have coercion so yeah yeah

[00:28:38] For more background and what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called

[00:28:43] Scarred the true story of how I escaped nexium the cult that bound my life it's available on

[00:28:47] Amazon audible and at most bookstores if you want to see that story in streaming form watch

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[00:30:47] that's neutrophil.com promo code culty break times over people let's get back to this episode of

[00:30:54] a little bit culty it's a good one we took a couple of notes because whenever we watch something

[00:31:00] we was like right down the similarities just to kind of you know reference it for our listeners

[00:31:05] there were dynamics that were at play it specifically regards the hierarchy and people said like he

[00:31:12] owned my time and everyone being on eggshells and trying to please him specifically for knowing

[00:31:19] that they could be fired at a moment's notice like living in that fear state is very typical

[00:31:23] and that the person at the top sets the tone for that and that's that's the

[00:31:28] tyrannical yeah tyrannical I think that these people a lot of them kind of are like oh this

[00:31:32] doesn't feel like it has a hallmarks of a cult to me this feels like it has just is a bad job

[00:31:38] right but it is a job where people are expected to kind of be on call 24 seven if that's what Dan

[00:31:44] wants they're expected to kind of please Dan above everything else and again not everyone had these

[00:31:50] exact same experiences but something I heard pretty consistently from people who worked with

[00:31:55] him across the board was that kind of what he wanted what he thought was funny what he

[00:31:59] thought was right trumped everyone else what they wanted day to day creatively in general

[00:32:06] right you don't even have to call it a cult it's just a not healthy environment to the

[00:32:10] closer you get to the epicenter of it is where I think more coercion happens if you're targeted

[00:32:14] that way similar to the situation we were in you were targeted I wasn't yeah and I think it's

[00:32:19] interesting again because it's not that there was everyone had exactly the same experiences but

[00:32:25] again like you guys said kind of having the like both positive and negative and not never

[00:32:29] knowing what you were going to get is part of what makes people like that really powerful

[00:32:34] once someone has a dependency you know whether it be healthcare whether it be incentives and all

[00:32:38] that stuff or your income or income and you have a family and you have a job and you know

[00:32:42] about stuff getting up and leaving you know with two kids and a mortgage and all that stuff

[00:32:46] isn't easy so I think you're at the whim of someone A who knows that and knows that hey

[00:32:52] you know I can ask this guy X Y Z he's not going to not do what I'm going to ask him because

[00:32:56] he's totally dependent on me and then you know if I'm aware of that I can use that and abuse that

[00:33:01] similar atmosphere to hear it's like these kids want to be child stars if they want to have

[00:33:05] careers after that they know that I'm in control of that disproportionately to maybe even what their

[00:33:10] talent is so if they can use that or threaten them to be quiet or something like that they're

[00:33:16] going to do it because there's a lot of money and a lot of jobs and a lot of people dependent

[00:33:20] on that imagine quiet on set yeah yeah so I think building awareness to it is the first step

[00:33:25] I think that for children like you do not have kind of the understanding of workplace norms

[00:33:32] that you might have later on in your career also so you kind of become uniquely vulnerable

[00:33:37] and if there's something you don't like like there are so many people whose livelihoods depend

[00:33:40] on these shows like you could be putting dozens of people's livelihoods at stake and that is

[00:33:46] a lot of pressure to be willing to do when you're a teenager.

[00:33:50] My kid. Oh god I hadn't thought of that particular angle wow.

[00:33:53] Also your parents. Yeah I mean it's not uncommon for these parents to kind of

[00:33:57] give up one of them at least to give up a job to be there supporting their kid to be on set

[00:34:02] so that is a situation where your parent might have gone into debt to get you into this

[00:34:06] situation and that's not something you can just walk away from and have it be like

[00:34:12] something that rolls off your back super easily. True so many things keeping it all

[00:34:17] in place has there been any backlash for you or for any of the actors?

[00:34:21] To me like I think that any project like we should be open to receiving criticism like

[00:34:27] I always am willing to listen to that. That's healthy.

[00:34:30] And I think that that's kind of like the best way to approach it I'm proud of

[00:34:34] that we've been able to reach all these people but yeah I'm also definitely

[00:34:37] willing to listen to criticism. Did you have people on set to help support

[00:34:42] people like Drake when they were sharing their stories?

[00:34:44] I wasn't on set for all the interviews being done. You never want to put someone into a position

[00:34:49] where they're feeling re-traumatized and I think that that's hard to do as a

[00:34:52] journalist in general to kind of say hey can you talk about one of the worst things that

[00:34:58] happened in your life and we want to share this with the world.

[00:35:01] I think that just inherently that's a really really vulnerable position.

[00:35:05] I know talking with Drake he kind of was like I felt like you did this in

[00:35:09] the best way possible. I felt really comfortable but yeah I think that it's

[00:35:12] it's going to be a really difficult needle to thread no matter what.

[00:35:16] I always worry about that and that's not specific to Nickelodeon that's kind of

[00:35:19] any story it's hard.

[00:35:21] We feel the same way as interviewing people in a little bit culty with their trauma

[00:35:24] and we've learned a lot we've made mistakes. I mean I want to what I want to do is send

[00:35:28] them on a weak trip with you know massages and therapy and like.

[00:35:33] Exactly.

[00:35:35] The subjects myself included Sarah included you know we had had our boundaries

[00:35:40] crossed inadvertently in a lot of ways and re-establishing those while on camera

[00:35:46] with people who want our story sometimes it would just happen in real time right

[00:35:50] just go I'm out or I'd go hide behind the camera

[00:35:53] and go I just talked to them and I was like I'm not doing this right now.

[00:35:56] And for the record not with the vow the vow is always a very positive

[00:35:59] experience for us but there were some interviews where people were like

[00:36:03] so why do people join cults you know like do you really want to know?

[00:36:07] Even with people you trust.

[00:36:09] Even with people you trust you go oh this is a this is a territory

[00:36:13] and I would just go hey I think this is something that I need to just kind of

[00:36:16] like figure out for myself like they weren't pushy I just I didn't know

[00:36:20] I mean I was going through it and I didn't know what it was until it was

[00:36:23] crossed and I was like that feeling doesn't feel right I gotta I gotta

[00:36:25] look at this and I'll just go hide.

[00:36:27] It's so difficult as a journalist to be like hey like I need to ask these

[00:36:31] follow-up questions if you don't feel comfortable answering them

[00:36:34] you don't have to but like I also don't want to

[00:36:38] not ask something and then have a story out there and you being like oh you

[00:36:42] misinterpreted my words or like oh that wasn't the full story so it's

[00:36:46] it's hard to balance kind of be like I want to ask these questions

[00:36:49] I want to allow my reporting to take me wherever it goes

[00:36:52] while being like you don't have to answer this if this is going to

[00:36:55] kind of retraumatize you and put you in a hard situation I just

[00:36:58] never want someone I'm interviewing to feel like oh

[00:37:01] Kate didn't tell my full story because she didn't keep

[00:37:05] following up basically.

[00:37:06] Right that's a responsible thing to do.

[00:37:07] You're never gonna get it right.

[00:37:09] Yeah it's hard it's really really hard and like

[00:37:12] I think that it's a it's a difficult needle to thread no project it

[00:37:16] should be exempt from criticism but I think that it's it's something

[00:37:20] that in everything I work on I I want to be aware of.

[00:37:23] Totally I and I really respect that stance

[00:37:27] that you could be proud of your project accept criticism accept that some people

[00:37:32] you know might have a problem with it or a particular element of it

[00:37:36] we personally think it's just a really important story that needs to be told

[00:37:40] and my acting career started in the late 90s on YTV which is the Canadian

[00:37:45] Nickelodeon and a lot of those series ended up on Nickelodeon.

[00:37:48] Oh wow.

[00:37:49] So I did like are you afraid of the dark and Big Wolf on campus

[00:37:52] and student bodies this is like 1998 to 2001 2002-ish and those those shows

[00:37:58] were like the you know the Canadian equivalent of Nickelodeon and I

[00:38:02] had like the opportunities to go down to LA and like do LA and for a number

[00:38:08] of reasons I didn't and one of them was that I went down with my girlfriend

[00:38:11] Victoria Sanchez and we were in our early 20s and we like dropped off our

[00:38:16] headshots at Miramax to like maybe meet Harvey Weinstein you know

[00:38:20] and yeah which we didn't and like at Skybar where some guy was like telling us

[00:38:26] that he could cast us in his next movie with Leonardo DiCaprio but we have to

[00:38:29] go learn about it upstairs in his hotel room which of course you know we

[00:38:32] didn't do but I was also self-aware enough to know that I wasn't strong

[00:38:36] enough to be in Hollywood I just I'd felt that and somehow

[00:38:40] somehow avoided it but then of course you know five years later

[00:38:43] it happened back to you but it's it's so hard it's so hard and like I

[00:38:48] think that I would love to hear your thoughts on this because something

[00:38:51] that stood out from a lot of these former child actors with me both ones who

[00:38:55] have described having negative experiences and ones who said my

[00:38:58] experience tended to be pretty positive was that they felt like they were

[00:39:03] treated as and felt like they were adults from a very young age where

[00:39:07] from like 14 they kind of thought oh I'm all grown up like

[00:39:10] it's not a problem for me to kind of be having this older person flirting

[00:39:16] with me or having this older person kind of spend all this alone time with me

[00:39:20] because I am functionally an adult already which I think for a lot of them

[00:39:24] looking back they're like oh my gosh like now in a 14 year old child like

[00:39:28] that is a child but I think at the time working this

[00:39:31] this environment a lot of them felt like fully adults from a very very young

[00:39:35] age. I think that is one of the inherent

[00:39:38] problems with child actors is and also all of the attention.

[00:39:42] I knew at 14 I was dumb. Yeah.

[00:39:46] I was fully aware at 14-15 I am a dumb 14-15 year old kid.

[00:39:50] If you have like a I need to be special complex which is like part of my

[00:39:53] journey with Nexium big on set is like totally panders to that you have

[00:39:57] everybody putting up doing your makeup your touches your wardrobe do you

[00:40:01] need anything can I get you a bottle of water are you okay like you're

[00:40:05] basically a princess or a prince you know and that's like

[00:40:08] that in and of itself is not good for children just breathes this

[00:40:12] this entitlement. It's so hard to know like the solution because yeah

[00:40:16] so much of this is just the total environment for any like

[00:40:19] 14 year old when you're the center of this on set universe it's like

[00:40:23] oh wow like I am an adult I'm a breadwinner. Exactly.

[00:40:27] Is there anything that we didn't ask you that you feel like you want to

[00:40:30] share with our audience? I don't think so I mean for anyone who's

[00:40:35] listening to this and it hasn't watched the Daki series yet I would say

[00:40:38] five episodes they're all streaming on max if anyone wants to read my

[00:40:42] initial investigation on top of that that's on Business Insider

[00:40:46] from 2022. It's a lot of kind of similar reporting that we have for this but

[00:40:50] there's some things that I well on a bit more especially I think

[00:40:54] we had a lot in the documentary kind of on the earlier days at Nickelodeon

[00:41:00] I mean especially Drake being involved there was a lot that we focused on

[00:41:04] with his specific experience and my article has a little bit more

[00:41:08] on kind of the entrepreneurs later years at Nickelodeon but yeah if anyone kind

[00:41:12] of is listening to this and haven't watched and read that's kind of how you

[00:41:15] can learn more. And I would echo that and say anyone

[00:41:17] with children definitely give it a look you know these are the same kind of

[00:41:21] personalities no matter they're not just in Nickelodeon

[00:41:24] they're maybe at your schools maybe your YMCA's I don't know maybe

[00:41:27] you're coaching but you know get sensitive to that because I think

[00:41:30] your documentary does a really good job of like what these

[00:41:33] predators look and sound like they're very charming and they're very charismatic

[00:41:36] and they if you don't think you can be fooled I think that makes you susceptible

[00:41:39] so for that reason alone I would watch it. So what did you think of Dan Schneider's

[00:41:44] apology? The thing that stood out to me most about Dan Schneider's apology

[00:41:48] was what Giovanni Sanuels said in our fifth episode was that basically

[00:41:54] before he released the apology before the documentary even came out

[00:41:58] Dan Schneider reached out to Gio and said like you know what a great

[00:42:00] person I am could you kind of like come out and support me and that to me really

[00:42:06] speaks to the fact that Gio was very involved in this like her voice is in

[00:42:10] the documentary she talks about both the positive experiences that she had

[00:42:14] but also the experiences of discrimination she faced and I think that

[00:42:18] that to me is almost more significant than anything I could interpret on Dan

[00:42:23] Schneider's documentary and how Dan has interpreted criticism to him

[00:42:27] and how he sees people as supporting him or not supporting him I think that

[00:42:33] to go to someone who has worked with you who is in the documentary

[00:42:37] and kind of be going in with the assumption that they will defend you

[00:42:42] was to me really fascinating and really telling.

[00:42:45] Luck of awareness.

[00:42:46] I'll just share with you quickly I was at first like oh wow he's changed

[00:42:49] he's owning his behavior he's he's apologizing he's

[00:42:54] knows he could have been better and then the end he says

[00:42:58] that he thinks there should be therapists on set and I was like yes and then he goes

[00:43:01] so that they can ask the kids and make sure that they really want to be there

[00:43:05] and then I was kind of like you know what that's not cool fuck you because

[00:43:08] he's saying it's really on them it's gaslighting actually it's on them to

[00:43:13] know that this is going to be tough and it's going to be a hard road

[00:43:16] and blah blah blah and you have to really be clear that you want to do it

[00:43:19] and and maybe that's true and they should have that conversation but

[00:43:22] also therapy to and like you said at the beginning they should have

[00:43:25] someone who's an advocate for to be there on set and to keep an eye out

[00:43:28] for these dynamics and to know what these things look like

[00:43:31] and to be checking in with the kids privately so they have a safe space to

[00:43:34] go yeah I didn't like it when he put his arm around me or asked for a massage

[00:43:37] or whatever so yeah he had me for a minute.

[00:43:41] I know and something else I would say is it was something where the

[00:43:45] directors reached out to Dan and he did not want to speak with

[00:43:50] the makers of the documentary about this and when he kind of

[00:43:54] released his apology video it was not with any journalist it was kind of

[00:43:57] with one of his former actors and it was released on his own youtube channel

[00:44:01] which to me I think that if you want to engage in this in a

[00:44:04] way that is a little bit more willing to kind of answer hard questions

[00:44:08] it would make more sense to speak with an actual journalist there.

[00:44:11] These types of people aren't going to put themselves in situations where

[00:44:15] they can't curate it and cure the conversation.

[00:44:17] He's still got to hold the power like think about it if he's power hungry

[00:44:19] he's got to hold the power as parents and as people in this space trying

[00:44:23] to shine light and expose abuses of power we were very grateful for this

[00:44:26] documentary so thank you. Yes thank you guys so much. Talk to you

[00:44:30] soon. Thank you. Take care. Bye bye.

[00:44:32] You like what you hear? Please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on

[00:44:36] iTunes or wherever you listen. Every little bit helps us get this

[00:44:39] cult awareness content out there. Smash that subscribe button

[00:44:43] you know what to do. So that was our interview with Kate Taylor and her

[00:44:49] conversation about quiet on set. We told you it would be

[00:44:54] intense. We also want to just touch a little bit further

[00:44:57] about what we mentioned on the topic of Drake Bell one of the victims who

[00:45:01] later became a perpetrator in 2021 he pledged guilty to child

[00:45:06] endangerment and a misdemeanor charge of disseminating matter harmful to

[00:45:09] juveniles. There's a longer conversation to be

[00:45:12] had here perhaps about the choice to not go into that in great detail

[00:45:16] and perhaps a conversation to be had about the child abuse cycles of

[00:45:20] victims who sometimes but not always also become perpetrators.

[00:45:23] We just wanted to acknowledge that because it's an important thing that

[00:45:26] we're not blind to and sometimes hurt people, hurt people, etc.

[00:45:31] And that's why we need to disrupt the systems that make these kinds of abuses

[00:45:34] about or possible. Anytime abuse overlaps with kids it's extra

[00:45:39] infuriating. We're going to go for a nice long walk and do some

[00:45:42] affirmations, breath work, kick some rocks, Nickelodeon just get it

[00:45:46] together. Hollywood do better, hashtag do better,

[00:45:49] hashtag what the fuck. Oh when they protect their money it's hard to.

[00:45:52] Hopefully we'll be chatting with Kate Teeler soon over on Patreon so don't

[00:45:56] forget to find us there. And remember we're a cult fighting

[00:45:59] content bargain now. All four of our bonuses every month are

[00:46:02] accessible for just five dollars a month and we keep it interesting over

[00:46:06] there with exclusive content behind the scenes stuff and you get to hear all

[00:46:10] new episodes early and of course ad free. Special thanks to Amanda Ambrose

[00:46:15] who stepped in to help us write and research this episode today.

[00:46:18] Fun fact she is just Tardi's first cousin, she also went to Harvard and

[00:46:21] also wanted to punch the TV screen and or ugly cry when she watched quite on set.

[00:46:26] Amanda we do feel you. We do. We wrap it up here thanks for everyone

[00:46:30] for listening. And for not joining a cult. Until next time. Bye.

[00:46:33] Sinking down to the depths of the ocean. I'm hanging on to the weight of my love.

[00:46:43] I find that girl all I could leave but I know I won't.

[00:46:52] Thanks for listening everyone. We're heading over to patreon.com

[00:46:55] slash a little bit culting now to discuss this episode.

[00:46:59] In the meantime dear listener please remember this podcast is solely

[00:47:03] for general informational educational and entertainment purposes.

[00:47:06] It's not intended as a substitute for real medical legal or therapeutic advice

[00:47:11] for cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world.

[00:47:16] Check out a little bit culty dot com slash culty resources and don't miss

[00:47:19] Sarah's TED talk called how cult literate are you great stuff.

[00:47:23] A little bit culty is a trace 120 production executive produced by Sarah Edmondson

[00:47:28] and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at citizens

[00:47:32] of sound and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard Jess Temple Tardy

[00:47:36] and our theme song cultivated is by John Bryant.