Recollected Self: Jaime Mahler on Breaking Toxic Cycles (Part 2)

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to snow basin. Now on the icon pass. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical

[00:00:31] or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson and I'm Anthony air quotes Nippy Ames.

[00:00:56] And this is A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:01:10] Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way. Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult. You better keep listening to find out.

[00:01:24] Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty. Hey everybody, welcome back to part two of our chat with the wise and wonderful Jamie Maylor. She's a licensed mental health counselor and author and the kind

[00:01:52] of influencer the world could use more of. You can find her on social media dispensing brilliant nuggets on trauma and toxic relationships at recollected self and you'll find more info on her in our show notes.

[00:02:02] Before you keep listening, make sure you back up and listen to part one of the conversation if you haven't already. Happy listening to you and here's Jamie Maylor. Thanks again for listening to A Little Bit Culty.

[00:02:24] Thank you so much for coming back to tell us about the book. In the last week's episode we heard your story and your journey in and out of the culty aspects of Catholicism and then you took space to figure out

[00:02:36] what happened to you. And I'm sure a lot of other things happen along the way but eventually you decide to write this book, Toxic Relationship Recovery, which we loved and I feel like we're going to be recommending it to a lot of people.

[00:02:47] Similarly to Take Back Your Life by Yanya Lalich. It's not cults, abusive relationships go hand in hand. It's the same dynamics just a small cult of one or a big cult of many people, thousands, millions. The

[00:03:00] dynamics are the same. So first of all why did you decide to write the book and also why focus just on abusive relationships and not mention cults? Was there a decision? Yeah so it's funny I don't use the word. I'm trying to

[00:03:11] think if I use the word narcissism at all in the book. I might use it once. I purposefully didn't use certain terms. Cult wasn't really coming across my radar because I know that that actually is a great expansion for the

[00:03:22] demographic of people that it would relate to but I know that narcissism is this trendy word and people like to use it in different ways. The reason I actually didn't use this word even the word cult I understand that. I try to

[00:03:33] not say that word but it's like people love to immediately categorize those thoughts. Like they go narcissism, cult, categories. And so it's hard for people to create the nuance or the gray area of some of these terminologies and so not that we have to not add that

[00:03:51] language for when it's supposed to be there. Call a cult a cult, call a narcissist or narcissist tendencies what they are yet what I've noticed in the collective culture is that people will hear one word and they'll immediately

[00:04:05] go I'm not part of that. I'm not part of that system. I couldn't be exposed. My partner's not in that category or I'm not part of a cult or like similar that parallel right but when you explain it without using those definitive

[00:04:22] categories people can arrive to those conclusions themselves. So for anyone who's questioning whether or not they're a part of a narcissist system or a cult system if we use that terminology because you know someone if you listen to my story I know that I was trained to

[00:04:41] immediately say that's not part of my story. Right. Right. So I would immediately bypass a book that had those terminologies right except if I was like I don't know this this behavior doesn't seem right and I started reading about those behaviors

[00:04:57] there is a higher likelihood that I'd be able to draw a conclusion that I am a part of a system that has these attributes then it's almost like I don't want people to bypass the opportunity to learn if that makes sense.

[00:05:10] So when you asked about like why did I create the structure and like why did I you know what motivated me I realized that we collectively live in a lot of toxic systems we have a lot of toxic relationships a lot of toxic family systems and

[00:05:25] I really was trying to shoot the moon and I wanted each chapter to be hitting each category I wanted a toxic religion I wanted a toxic family chapter I wanted a toxic partner chapter and I'll never forget my publisher was like

[00:05:39] lol like like almost either that book is not going to be able to come to fruition or it's going to take you forever to write and also to be fair if I was going to do a book like that it would be

[00:05:50] triple the length and I would have took two years to write it right so they looked at me and they go listen we love this idea can we just categorize it deeper to something that's more

[00:06:01] you know of a niche topic which is partnerships and that's what for the listeners that are like I don't have a toxic partner right I'm going to speak directly to you guys right now most of us that

[00:06:11] don't have a partner that is like you know it you're like oh this feels healthy and I know that I'm not being coerced right I invite you to still consider the book because the ideas that are in this

[00:06:24] book are written in a way that you can generalize them to let's say a cult experience an MLM experience a experience with a friendship an experience of the family right so when you hear the terminologies that I use you don't have to keep it in the

[00:06:39] partnership because it really does expand to any system based on power and control absolutely I would go a step further sarah am I a toxic partner no do I have toxic behaviors yes and some of those toxic behaviors described in the book yes

[00:06:56] absolutely and vice versa I'll just say that if you just want language to quantify some of the times when you're not optimal right it doesn't mean you're a toxic person but we all have programming from our parents that's not optimal my parents aren't perfect

[00:07:09] right and there's some toxic you know I grew up with four boys in the south where our emotions weren't nurtured and we were told to go handle our own shit on our own that's toxic

[00:07:20] I mean for me because I had to grow up in adulthood and learn how to do that on my own I still have a tendency to do those things on my own so there's some great excerpts from your book that just go oh my god that's

[00:07:30] amazing into my first relationship when I was like 18 19 years old I could even go and say I was a toxic partner because I just didn't know how to handle it anytime someone tried to approach me I was like

[00:07:40] I'm strong enough to handle on my own and it took me about two three years to reflect on that first relationship and go yeah I was a dick you know and so you know right but I think the reason I was able to reflect on

[00:07:53] is because I generally have a disposition where I want to be better and I knew it was kind of a me problem right so I think that's my saving grace in terms of Sarah going no you're a totally toxic partner so I was just

[00:08:04] deflecting and I was immature emotionally but I was immature emotionally because I had some toxic upbringing in an atmosphere so don't go into it thinking oh my god I'm gonna find out I'm toxic you know for me it was like you put great language to just strategies

[00:08:17] that we all have and some shape or form that's awesome if you want that wisdom this book has it yeah I mean it is scary for people to think about this for a second right I tell I've talked about this in the past many

[00:08:30] people don't know my story I was one of those people that turned into a toxic partner I definitely did I really I'm being serious I really did I had a lot of the tendencies are in the book I still to this day

[00:08:42] have to catch when I go into a tendency of one of the things in my book and this is why I'm a big believer in language if we think about the word toxic if we even talk about the title people are

[00:08:55] like ooh toxic do we really want to do that you're kind of inherently injecting blame shame judgment guilt and I go listen I'm a believer in calling something for what it actually is because by doing that we can actually hold

[00:09:13] either the system or ourselves in the fullness of ownership of that behavior I am not saying I'm inherently bad that's not what I'm saying I've done very bad behaviors in the past and I try to keep myself in check yet I know that I have inherent dignity and

[00:09:33] worth and value right and so what I try to explain to people is I go listen we are a very complex nuance system here right we are experiencing a million different shades of nuance and gray and all these

[00:09:47] different things and what happens in that is that we have things coexisting inside of us we know that we have inherent dignity and worth yet we just said something really passive aggressive or blame shifting to our partner what are we going to do with

[00:10:00] that information we can either say I'm all good or I'm all bad or and this is the healing part of it you can ask yourself how do I experience those things coexisting and what do I

[00:10:14] want to do about it right do I want to say well I can't be an angel what do you want from me Sarah I can't be perfect I'm not a perfect partner if you want a perfect partner go marry the saint

[00:10:26] hope person over there right like and you're like okay hold on right and I actually talk about this in the book I go be very careful when your partner is projecting an all or nothing narrative because they are immediately trying to frame themselves

[00:10:40] as they're completely helpless in their own advocacy right they're saying well I can't be perfect so what do you want from me and when you have a trained emotionally skilled person on the other side of that conversation they can say I'm not asking you to be perfect

[00:10:54] I'm asking you to hold the implication of your behavior for moment so you can understand it's impacting our relationship that's what I'm asking of you I do still love you I do still care about you

[00:11:05] I know that you are a good person in the heart of your hearts and what just happened in that dialogue we need to untangle we need to untangle that because clearly that is an example of how we can start on a cycle of being very very

[00:11:23] harmful to each other and if we don't check that behavior we're going to normalize that behavior and I'm not willing to normalize that behavior I'm not going to normalize passive aggressive behaviors between the two of us I'm not going to normalize blame shifting or

[00:11:36] deflection so if I see any of that I'm going to ask you I'm going to invite you really I'm going to invite you to have those things coexist and hold space for what that means and why this is so complex you know Sarah's asking about

[00:11:51] the healing process the reason why this gets so complex is because many people are trying to do this work where they're just getting to the point of emotional skill development and then they see the opportunity for growth and they're realizing they're slowly growing and their partner

[00:12:12] it like they're they're like catch up catch up with me come on you know come on you can do this right like you got to learn this stuff too and in the book I call it emotional piggybacking I go just because you go to therapy does not mean

[00:12:27] that your partner de facto is healing that's not happening right it's it's not happening just because you've learned emotional skills does not mean that when you go back into that household they're going to understand how to dialogue about difficulties right and like nippy

[00:12:44] here's a great example you were talking about like how emotional like stuntedness or neglect or whatever it's like okay well right you talk about what happens when someone never got taught the skills to dialogue about their emotional experience of course you're 18 years old and you're showing up with

[00:13:01] behaviors that you're not happy about when you know in your middle life like you're sitting there like what why didn't I do that right but it's because if you sit there you look at a child and you go

[00:13:11] why are they so unskilled why can't they ride the bike I can ride the bike with my eyes closed what are you talking about and I go this person never got taught any of these skills so clearly it does you zero justice to shame that child

[00:13:26] for not having a skill it doesn't excuse going back to the other parallel it doesn't excuse someone being destructive and violent or emotionally neglectful or abusive right it doesn't excuse that you're allowed to call that into the consciousness and be like hey

[00:13:41] you're hurting me right you're allowed to say that but you expecting that they're going to have the right strategy on the other side of that you have to do an inventory ask yourself is this person showing the emotional skills that if I say something and I bring

[00:13:56] it into the consciousness of this of our of our relationship if I bring it up is this person showing skills around emotional navigation right have you ever seen them emotionally navigate through a very difficult situation and some people like no I have seen it

[00:14:15] so I'm gonna try to you know reiterate that you know I know you're capable let's practice this right but then what happens with people who are in partnerships with this they like learn these skills you know they

[00:14:26] read the book right and then their brain goes okay well I know it so clearly they're gonna need to respond to me in a better way and I go you're doing like almost like the what is it the horse

[00:14:39] before the car or whatever like that and now whatever that is but it's like they don't even have the language to describe what's going on so all they have is everything in the first part of the book which is

[00:14:50] you're threatening me I got a deflect I got a blade shift I got to do this here's my caveat or question to that number one can I request that there's a 30 minute lag period before the feedback and the request

[00:15:01] of listening to let tempers flare down to our audience this is directed at no one in particular and secondly what I hear and what I kind of have experienced in all these things just with like Sarah and I have many friends who have relationships

[00:15:17] consistently what here is someone does a step in that direction and they try to introduce it to their spouse and their spouse just doesn't want to hear it they don't want to hear they have these flaws and then

[00:15:29] I think ultimately in some cases there's expectations being thrust on this person and they're not ready to hear it how do you suggest someone navigates that particularly when the nature of the relationship was set up on them not being that person

[00:15:44] right because if the nature of the relationship was unconscious like you guys just happen to start dating or you guys just happen to end up together you happen to have a kid together right I go that's a lot of unintentional binding together right you're realizing

[00:15:57] that you're getting deeper and deeper into this relationship to each other but it's not conscious decision-making about that so if you get to the second half of the book I do it I don't know it's probably like half the chapter I talk about the standard survey which is

[00:16:12] I basically outline all the different facets of your life and I go start developing how you want to communicate as a couple right so how do you want to add joy or playfulness to your life

[00:16:24] how do you want to dialogue about emotions how do I like what you just didn't if it was a great example you said I would prefer that's a standard you're like I would prefer a space for processing so if

[00:16:36] something happened I am coming to my partner and I'm saying I know that I will be able to process something better if there's slightly a gap or even a little bit of time which is usually an indicator I mean I'm not gonna sit here and like

[00:16:52] I'm not gonna sit here and like you know on my little arm chair but usually you see you can this is therapy for us go for it this podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing supportive generous patrons are you with us come find us over on Patreon at

[00:17:11] patreon.com slash alubit culty for bonus episodes exclusive content and the occasional zoom with our fan favorites from our past episodes it's a lot of fun over there people meals bring people together but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge

[00:17:32] you can help by participating in Macy's annual feeding the hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through January 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags

[00:17:48] where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's the frankies were a picture perfect influencer family but everything wasn't as it seemed I just had a 12 year old boy still up

[00:18:05] here asking for help he's emaciated he's got tape around his legs ruby frankie is his mom's name infamous is covering ruby frankie the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives listen to infamous wherever you get your podcasts you've heard from our sponsors now

[00:18:29] let's get back to a little bit culty shall we one of the reasons why I think we've endured it even before this podcast just now is like it's a fucking miracle we're still together given what we went through in the cult but also like nippy's background and my

[00:18:43] background are so different like him family of five boys can't express feelings you know getting hit and then me having like these two therapists been like tell me how you feel and what would you do different next time and like such different ways of processing

[00:18:56] emotions that we came together and we can even get through shit at all is if honestly it's a miracle right well this is a good example I'll talk about like a personal anecdote my husband is very my partner is very

[00:19:08] similar to it sounds like well I mean I can't say definitively but like nippy's processing like I know for a fact that he does better with space with the dialogue so he'll be like we're having a disagreement on something and you know

[00:19:24] he's like I don't have this figured out yet and I'm gonna need a little bit more time I'm the exact opposite my brain is already on fire and it already has all of these ideas which by the way I actually tell people we're talking about external versus internal

[00:19:38] processing or verbal versus like retrospective or reflective processing if you think about like those two things what's interesting is I've even made the case that I could have a rationale during an argument or a conflict or a dialogue

[00:19:54] and that isn't always my real truth so if you give me a day sometimes I'm realizing whatever I immediately had in that conversation wasn't actually truly reflective of what my real thoughts were on the matter right so if I'm like no you're just doing this because

[00:20:14] you you know like I don't know like say like a misogyny I'm like you're just doing this because you know it's easier for men to do this and that's why you want to do this and he's like that's not fair why are you saying

[00:20:24] that and I'm like you know what that's just my opinion blah blah and he's like you know let's let's take a day like give us a space blow about right so if he takes that day

[00:20:34] he'll be like I can see why you came to that conclusion it did look a lot like I was pulling like a misogyny card or whatever and this is what you need to understand so he'll be able to come to a conclusion of like

[00:20:47] what his almost objective was when he was describing the thing we were conflicting about right but then my brain typically goes and this is what I talk about with self ownership in the book I talk about

[00:20:58] a lot about self ownership self ownership is I took time I came back to that dialogue and I go I have a misogyny wound if I get really angry I will link it to like a patriarchy or misogyny wound

[00:21:10] and then I'll project it and so if you give me one day I usually can come back to my partner and go that was a wound and I was projecting on you and it wasn't reality it felt like reality when I was in the eight argument it wasn't

[00:21:25] reality I know that you're not misogynistic and I know that you are not advocating for the patriarchy it was my wound speaking and in that moment I was verbally processing with you but it was definitely a wound that was coming up and I was pushing it right back

[00:21:40] on you right and so this is one of those strategies what we just described think about how much skill it took it took the one person the one party to know that they are maybe more of an

[00:21:52] internal processor and then advocate for that and I'm the external power advocate I'm the external processor saying no no we need to process it right now right now to which Dippy's like feeling cornered and I'm like yes getting him tighter and tighter into the corner and

[00:22:08] and then he leaves to go process and my fear of abandonments triggered and then I'm already packing I'm packing because all or nothing we can't clearly navigate this so we might as well break up

[00:22:20] this has been a pattern and if this is too personal we could cut it out all I'm doing is just reconciling my pride at that point right I just like I'm just letting my pride calm down so I can come back and

[00:22:29] have a civil discourse no they comes back and I will say Nippy's really good at making things light but also using laughter or losing humor is a buffer and this is like a good thing anabetic humor is the Vaseline for social intercourse there

[00:22:45] Vaseline oh my god back after just before he self cleans and like says what he's recognized this is his apology Nippy go say it have you thought about your behavior so I know okay I say it like that yeah like if you thought about your behavior

[00:23:05] and then we hug her when I do it but I think what's great about it is it defuses the situation what's not great about it is that we don't always get to the root of what happened we kind of like brush it under the rug and move

[00:23:15] on because we have kids and blah blah life happens yeah I mean life happens well this is what I would point out this is what I would point out I like that you guys are using like this for a life example

[00:23:23] I would point this out it takes two people to own how they're processing notice this okay so if I can own I know that in the moment I process in vivo I practice in the live reality of

[00:23:36] the moment of the the occurrence right what ends up happening is like I said sometimes I have clarity sometimes I don't have clarity so I'll just say wounded things and my partner's like do you really believe that you really believe that I'm misogynistic and I'm like I don't

[00:23:53] know what to think this is all like this is what it feels like sometimes right and he and he walks away really hurt because he's like I know in the heart of my art that's not who I am and you're like

[00:24:04] aiming me to be this like villain and I go right and that's why it takes two parties to own what's happening he's realizing clearly Jamie's in this external processing moment and I can't do this in this moment I

[00:24:18] don't even have the tools right now I need to like a moment to think so he might be like I need to take back not because I'm trying to abandon you and we've actually used that word before he'll be like I'm not leaving this conversation

[00:24:29] I'm needing time for this conversation that's it I'm not leaving it I'm not abandoning it we will be able to readdress this I need to calm down and then figure out what I did exactly exactly and then on the

[00:24:44] counterpoint this is what I would say on the counterpoint so if we're talking about the trauma recovery model in the book one of the key components is self-ownership what I'm talking about with self-ownership in this example that we just talked about with you too

[00:24:56] if you can own the fact that both of you have unique perspectives going on during that conflict what starts happening is you don't have to compete against each other you don't have to make nippy into an external processor

[00:25:11] and nippy you don't have to make her into an internal processor right all you're doing is actually looking at each other and saying both of our processing styles are valid and we have a responsibility

[00:25:27] to try to figure out how to navigate between the two of those and when you have two partners that are willing to do that serious magic can happen because now you look at each other with respect that you are a unique individual that has a unique processing power

[00:25:43] and that both parties are being responsible for how those two different things can cause harm or cause healing for more background on what brought us here check out my page turning memoir it's called scarred the true story of how i escaped nexium the cult that bound my life

[00:25:59] it's available on amazon audible and at most bookstores and if you want to see that story in streaming form you can watch both seasons of the vow on hbo meals bring people together but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge

[00:26:16] you can help by participating in macy's annual feeding the hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through january 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags

[00:26:32] where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at macy's this episode is sponsored by better help what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss

[00:26:48] yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep i mean that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well i definitely have some non-negotiables like i'm in vancouver right now and i'm spending literally as much time as i can outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it

[00:27:03] nature is a non-negotiable not enough time the fresh air and the trees around me and i start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks i try to not miss it and i know i'm just gonna feel so much

[00:27:14] better all around if i make it a priority i get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so i can focus on what i really need and sometimes what i don't

[00:27:25] need like i don't need to be overbooking myself just because i hate to say no to people you know what i mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help or try it's entirely online designed to be convenient

[00:27:37] flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge look even when we know what makes us

[00:27:47] happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy day with better help visit better help comm slash culty today to get 10 off your first month that's better help

[00:28:01] h-e-l-p dot com slash culty break time's over people let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty it's a good one i actually saw one of your instagram little videos which i thought was great is that healthy relationship you

[00:28:15] is something like you enjoy each other in a toxic relationship you endure each other and i thought that was really brilliant and i mean probably moments of both but like truthfully i think with us and

[00:28:26] maybe sidebar we can hire you to clean up some stuff because i think that like what's left over and we've talked about this in couples counseling but i don't think i really saw it as clearly as we did here in relation to

[00:28:36] the cult conversation is that we're fucked from the beginning because day one of the five day with nexium is let's look at needs desires preferences and they break it down if you buy into the model needs are survival food shelter water anything else is a non-integrated fixation right

[00:28:56] it's a desire i think i need a career i think i need this i think i need that some of that's true from a buddhist point of view nothing from the outside world causes happiness but like connection respect love need if i believe i don't

[00:29:11] have any needs and i'm in a relationship where like hey i'm feeling like disrespected or i'm feeling whatever and the answer is well that's just your deficiency and talk about this is one of the main

[00:29:21] nuggets i got from your book the internal dialogue of what we did for ourselves to shut that thinking down stop thought terminating cliche or just thought stopping that's just me being needy that's just me being needy fuck that noise right like

[00:29:36] this was the basis of i think a lot of our dynamics let me point out from the podcast say how vulnerable does that make you because if you're not sovereign over your own needs and desires then who could be but when we look at every detail it's like

[00:29:52] this is why i'm so passionate about self sovereignty i'm not trying to make people many gods what i'm trying to help people understand is self sovereignty is that i must embrace that i am a unique person with unique wants unique needs and unique aspirations or perspectives

[00:30:11] and so when i can create a standard like you just said hey nippy or you said sarah i would like you to give me a little more space that's not you being needy that's you being self sovereign you're actually owning

[00:30:25] the experience inside of you making what you feel need bad is making you somewhat into a robot and then a non-integrated fixation based on what standard what are you not integrated with what is the actual thing that we're supposed to be integrated with

[00:30:42] jayme i think we should do an instagram live where we like one by one go through some of the nuggets in your book and talk about how it like give real life examples about how the the dynamic happens in a cult and how it happens

[00:30:57] in a relationship and just so because what i loved about your book and i think it is brilliant that you didn't use those buzz words because you just gave examples really specific real life examples of what codependence is what a measurement is these terms

[00:31:11] that i think many of us know but don't really know and then how to use what i also loved is how to use radical self honesty to reflect and see where you did it and then also tools to not do it anymore and

[00:31:23] that's what i really really liked about your book but specifically for this audience like what are the correlations and i think a lot of the things stemmed down to what i just said which is that there's a belief that you don't really have needs

[00:31:36] and that's so toxic that the person in this case like with nexium the cult could always say anything that i'm experiencing like i'm not feeling safe right now or i'm not feeling connected or i feel loved or whatever

[00:31:48] that's just something i need to work on i need to go get an em like that's a that's a me problem and the fact of the matter is it's not black or white like

[00:31:55] you say in your book it's not one thing or the other it's possible that my needs aren't being met and i am needy because i'm used to codependency it could be both right right but also it starts with

[00:32:05] self-compassion like if you remember if you're told that you don't have needs like the parallel between my story if you go to part one of the podcast you know episode if you think about what we were told is

[00:32:18] my i was told my needs were demonic you were told your needs don't exist right and in a toxic relationship most people are either told i mean they're whether or not it's the religion angle most people are told your needs are either inconvenient or they don't fit

[00:32:37] the model of this relationship right so if you're like oh well i would like to you know not swear at each other i used this example a lot i would like us to not swear at each other when we're having a conflict

[00:32:49] well that doesn't fit my perspective of how i want to dialogue with you so your needs are getting bypassed for my perception of how i want to treat you right so if you think about that what's happening in a toxic relationship or a microscopic way is

[00:33:06] that i'm basically with each conversation asking you to bypass your inherent wisdom about what you need or who you are or how you self-express and i'm saying that doesn't fit my narrative of who i want you to be and this is why when you untangle from a toxic

[00:33:25] relationship most people are going i don't know who the hell i am i genuinely don't know who i am i don't know what i like i don't know what i don't like i don't know what i want out of a

[00:33:34] partner and i go that is such a sign such a deep rooted sign that someone spoke over your sovereignty possibly for years right and that's 100 what happened with us in nexium we were spoken over we weren't allowed to express and the other thing i think really

[00:33:51] was a correlation with the concept of charade just like somebody in a relationship being like oh like the shiny happy people or like in a relationship everything's fine we're fine it was the toxic positivity of being in a we were in a success program that

[00:34:03] taught the science of joy if you weren't joyful the tools weren't working i mean there were times when i did feel true joy but for the most part i was embodying the mission right and this is the same thing as what t lovings wrote

[00:34:14] in her book which hasn't come out yet about like she was more dedicated to the image the pr campaign of the relationship than the truth of the relationship because if i actually untangle this is a great

[00:34:24] parallel if i untangle what i went through people are like well did you experience joy and connection and community when you're deep into your you know cult like experience and i go yes and if i could speak to what it felt like in a general sense

[00:34:40] it felt like i was suffocating it felt like every time i try to express my humanity and tell people what really felt like to endure these things people were like that doesn't fit you aren't fitting in here if you talk about that that's a problem right and

[00:34:57] i go if someone's training you to basically rid yourself of your inherent wisdom throw up not a yellow flag throw up a full on red flag because that is a very problematic behavior and basically trying to indoctrinate you out of your own existence that's incredibly harmful

[00:35:18] and when it happens in a system like you experienced you know serenity it's exponential impact is just it's pure if someone asked me what pure evil is i say that i literally go when you reach the masses with something that inherently disrupted to the psyche

[00:35:38] i would never call wearing a spaghetti strap evil but i call that evil i'm with you on that now i am aware that i still had lots more to talk to you about so why don't we save we'll do a patreon episode with maybe audience questions

[00:35:54] and we'll do a live instagram or whatever whatever you have capacity for because i know your book just came out will have already introduced you in the introduction to the episodes of why the book so great and how it's helpful to

[00:36:05] us any last words of wisdoms for survivors and again lots of our audience our survivors and lots of our audience are just people who are interested in cults but everyone has a relationship in their life whether it's

[00:36:16] like a partner something more serious with somebody who's toxic in some way what's your advice to those people i think what i would leave everyone with is that when you start taking the relationship you have with yourself seriously that you can actually take yourself

[00:36:37] seriously your wants your needs your desires you can look at them with curiosity instead of criticism instead of cruelty and in my case instead of you know demonic possession right if you can look at yourself and say i'm not the enemy i'm not the enemy

[00:36:57] i have wisdom inside of me that is meant to guide me and my role is to develop discernment and moderation and anchor it into collective humanity so i can make sure i'm respecting other people but also that i'm respecting myself

[00:37:17] right this is the biggest thing is we get lost and people go go to the collective go to the collective go to look at everybody else and i go if you lose yourself when you're engaging in that this is how we don't recognize ourselves eventually

[00:37:33] we don't know who we are so start investing in the relationship you have with yourself start thinking about how you're engaging with yourself how are you taking care of your psyche and your body and your experience right once you can ask yourself that

[00:37:54] with curiosity not deprecation there is a lot of freedom on the other side of that i love that and i apologize for not asking you this first off how does that compare with your definition of

[00:38:05] a toxic relationship i mean the freedom you feel when you're on the other side of recovery i look at it as an imprisonment versus true freedom and what does that mean people are like what is true freedom mean and i go when you're locked in by other

[00:38:23] people's perceptions of you and by other people's narratives for you or other people's directives for you you're never going to be able to get to know yourself you're just falling in line you're just asking who am i someone

[00:38:37] tell me who i can be and i go that's gonna start feeling like a prison because eventually there's going to be a breadcrumbe moment there's going to be a moment of reckoning and your body's gonna say hey what they just said with

[00:38:48] that what that person just said what came out of their mouth that doesn't align with you that doesn't align with who you are and you can either fall in line or you can listen to your inherent wisdom

[00:38:59] and with like i just said those are this is the key points here you have to discern you have to anchor yourself in the collective humanity so in order to make sure you're not becoming another cult leader

[00:39:11] you have to also understand that you have to respect other people's humanity and their sovereignty i like to say in the book i'm not teaching you to have power over people i'm teaching you how to have power over yourself

[00:39:24] and actually harness your inherent power in the wisdom that's found within you right my goal is to not have anyone experience a recreation or a cycling of this experience and so when you become sovereign and your goal is to never speak over anyone else's sovereignty that

[00:39:47] allows the collective to be free but also be in community with each other think about that i want everyone to be in community people like oh my god you're acting like it should i not have a partner should i not have friends and i go

[00:39:59] that's not what we're saying we're not saying that at all we're saying in order for there to be a healthy community everyone needs to look at each other as though they are their own wisdom and when we look at each other

[00:40:13] in community we can go i want you to be as free as me so i don't want my power to coerce you right and that's how we untangle these things we have to understand that it's people's

[00:40:28] attempt to have control over us that is leading to this like cyclical experience right but when we can stand in our own power and we can go all right it looks like you disagree with me wearing spaghetti straps i'm realizing that the spaghetti straps that i'm wearing

[00:40:48] are an expression of my style they're an expression of who i am which means that person that has a problem is probably not matching in your community does that make sense like they shouldn't be in the circle if they look at that as a thwarting

[00:41:03] of their own autonomy so you have to kind of like this is getting pretty complex and we'll definitely go into the live on this but when you get really deep into this it's really about anchoring inside of yourself because once you're anchoring inside of yourself

[00:41:17] you can speak with more authority and you can operate with more autonomy which i think is so beautiful and to wrap up i think what a lot of the new age groups do these days is they're promising that they're promising

[00:41:29] its sovereignty and they're promising empowerment and all these beautiful things but there's still a codependency on the group to provide those things sarah this is one of the things i want to add because you literally i have this i'm not joking

[00:41:42] this is the book this is the page i have opened i talk about there is a huge difference between some and facilitating healing and someone being the one and only source of that healing by bypassing personal ownership over recovery the codependency wound is not healed

[00:42:01] it's merely transferred to another source yep it's why people call top and we're gonna do a chapter of this in our new book and we're gonna quote our guests to reinforce the concept so we'll be sure to quote you for our chapter on codependency

[00:42:17] and called hopping in our future book coming soon i love that and where can people find you where do people find you jamie okay well if anyone wants to find me you can go to my website recollectedself dot com it's also on all social medias at recollected self

[00:42:32] and then you can find the book pretty much anywhere books are sold typically amazon barns of noble are the best but and audible jamie narrated herself and it's really really good yes i love audiobook so yes

[00:42:43] that's kind of my try and choose so go go check that out and your podcast called my podcast is unlearned if you are looking for an option on trauma recovery strategies kind of like what i've been talking about the strategies we go

[00:42:57] over typically every single episode so yeah that's a free option if you want to check out my podcast unlearned so many good resources we'll put it all in our show notes and we'll be posting soon when the lives and the

[00:43:08] patreon's and all the things will be happening thank you so much jamie you're awesome thank you guys i appreciate you like what you hear do you give us a rating review and subscribe on itunes every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there

[00:43:25] smash that subscribe button you know you want to i'm trying to record this outro and nippy is sick in bed and it's Thanksgiving week so i'm here by myself with ace ace what are you doing today are you building lego what do you think about toxic

[00:43:43] relationships who's your best friend nobody what about elmo say it anything you want to say to the a little bit culty audience okay here's a question do you like podcasts do you like lego do you like spider man

[00:44:01] do you like sitting with mummy in her office while she does her podcast yeah do you like julie's chocolates what do you like about them the taste the taste do they feel good in your in your belly

[00:44:14] because i like chocolate i like chocolate too i like kit kats you like kit kats me you know i like julie's chocolate better like julie's chocolate glow chocolate cat is yummy so that's my summary in all seriousness i've really enjoyed reading this book

[00:44:30] analyzing all my relationships not just the obvious ones and looking for some of these patterns and how i can evolve them i hope you do too please comment on our instagram and patreon if you're there and hopefully we'll have jamie back to discuss further on one of our

[00:44:44] live zoom q&a power hours over on the patreon bye everybody thanks for supporting a little bit culty see you next time if i let go of it all i could leave but i know thanks for listening everyone we're heading over to patreon.com

[00:45:13] slash a little bit culty now to discuss this episode in the meantime dear listener please remember this podcast is solely for general informational educational and entertainment purposes it's not intended as a substitute for real medical legal or therapeutic advice

[00:45:28] for cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world check out a little bit culty dot com slash culty resources and don't miss sarah's TED talk called how cult literate are you great stuff a little bit culty is a trace 120

[00:45:43] production executive produced by sarah edmondson and anthony nippy aims in collaboration with producer will reutherford at citizens of sound and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard jess temple tardy our show writer is holly zedra and our theme song cultivated is by john bryant