Rude Awakening: Sarah Landry On Nithyananda & Other Nightmares (Part 1)

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass, North. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit.

[00:00:14] North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:27] The views and opinions expressed by A Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:35] Any content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors, or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:47] Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:07] And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met on love in a quote self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult called Nexium.

[00:01:17] Heard of it? We got out of there together and on our way out we helped shut it down. Our journey as Nexium whistleblowers was captured in detail on a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:29] New York Times, babe. Right. Have you heard of it? Each week on A Little Bit Culty, we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers plus experts in things like cultic abuse and coercive control.

[00:01:41] We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians with wisdom to share on recovering from everything from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances with raging narcissists.

[00:01:50] There's always something to learn about the cultiverse. Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode. Find us on Instagram and at ALittleBitCulty.com.

[00:02:01] Welcome back everyone. Sarah? Yes, Nippy. Another doc, another cult. Another day. Another day in the life of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:02:22] You know I look forward to this summer where we take a little break from the cult content. I've got some other shows I need to watch. I have nothing to do with cults.

[00:02:31] Even when we tried to watch Yellowstone and take a little break, remember that we're branding the ranchers?

[00:02:36] Yeah, it's just not a good one. No. I watched before you go to bed. Noted trigger alert there for Yellowstone fans.

[00:02:41] But I did just watch a doc on Henry Ford. That was pretty amazing.

[00:02:44] That was a nice break for you. I'm glad you had that. It was. I love that journey for you. Felt knowledgeable.

[00:02:49] And speaking of docs, we still don't know when season two of the vow is coming. I promise you guys will be like the second to know after we call my mom.

[00:02:56] Give her the heads up and then we'll post it on Instagram and honestly I will let you know like within minutes.

[00:03:03] We're not in it so don't get too excited.

[00:03:05] We're into the little bit is all we know but there should be much more interesting things than our journeys which are benign really compared to what other people went through.

[00:03:12] Some other housekeeping things. Again, thank everybody who entered the t-shirt contest.

[00:03:16] I love how this is housekeeping and our house is a mess right now. It's such a disaster.

[00:03:21] I'm just looking around. It's crazy. Moving is not fun.

[00:03:25] No. But Nippy will be in the U.S. and we'll send the t-shirts from there next week.

[00:03:29] Congrats to all those who won. And please do continue to send stories of you listening to a little bit Calty.

[00:03:35] We love seeing the driving of the tractors, the making of the donuts, the cooking, pushing your kids in the baby car.

[00:03:43] The best one though was somebody who shared that she listened to a little bit Calty whilst in labor and that really helped her get through it.

[00:03:49] Can you believe that? I'm like so honored to be a part of someone's birthing journey.

[00:03:54] That's intense.

[00:03:56] Yeah, it's intense. Also we should let you know we are going to take a little break for the summer.

[00:04:01] There may or may not be some bonus episodes dropping. Stay tuned.

[00:04:05] But we will be back in full force for season five starting with some amazing guests including very fascinating conversation about toxic spirituality,

[00:04:15] how to recover and how to not throw out the baby with the bathwater with Eckhart Tolle.

[00:04:21] So that was great. Did you enjoy that?

[00:04:23] Yeah, that was. It was our first live.

[00:04:25] Oh yeah, we got to do it with him in person.

[00:04:27] In a room with Eckhart. I worked really hard to stay present in the now. I was so tired after.

[00:04:33] Well also the room was so quiet because of the soundproof room and it just felt like a calming presence.

[00:04:39] He's so calming.

[00:04:41] Oh no, he really is.

[00:04:43] And then the other one that we're super excited about, two more I'll share with you to get you excited also is we have a two-parter for sure

[00:04:49] there's two hours worth of an incredible conversation with one of my personal heroes, Evan Rachel Wood,

[00:04:54] who we have been supporting and following since she publicly named her abuser over a year ago.

[00:05:00] And the other little tease we'll share with you is we have a fascinating interview with Dr. Romani,

[00:05:07] who is a narcissist expert and I think you all are going to love that combo.

[00:05:11] She's great. And if you have a chance, look her up before and just, I mean her TED Talks only like 10 minutes

[00:05:17] and it's so good she just drops knowledge for like, what was it, five, ten minutes right Sarah?

[00:05:23] She goes off. It's like a guitar solo. It's so good.

[00:05:26] So stay tuned for season five but for the finale, something that we felt was important because there's a doc out right now.

[00:05:33] And just to heads up this episode does get into very gritty territory.

[00:05:38] There will be discussions of alleged sexual assault and child abuse. Listener discretion is advised.

[00:05:43] To paraphrase a headline from a 2020 gizmodo investigation piece by Jed O'Bombe,

[00:05:49] our guest today, quote, helped build a shady guru's YouTube army and now she's his fiercest critic.

[00:05:57] But who will believe her? End quote.

[00:05:59] Well, we do. We fucking believe her.

[00:06:01] At just 24 years old, Sarah Landry found herself hooked by the teachings of self-proclaimed Hindu guru Nithanyanda.

[00:06:07] He talks about animal rights and the need to go beyond the social conveyor belt of school, work, marriage, family and death.

[00:06:13] And his philosophies on creating conscious communities, they all drew her in like flies to honey. Moldy toxic honey.

[00:06:20] At Nithanyanda's instruction to recruit more people in, Sarah started a YouTube channel in 2011 and built up a following of over 50,000 subscribers,

[00:06:29] many of whom became new devotees and paid copious amounts of money to attend his programs.

[00:06:34] But at 2018, Sarah found out that although the organization claims to be ahimsa nonviolent,

[00:06:40] it was hiding a sordid stew of allegations, rape, violence against children and criminal fraud.

[00:06:45] Scared for her life, she stayed silent until 2019 when at last she realized she couldn't keep that to herself anymore

[00:06:51] and blew the whistle through Facebook posts and YouTube videos.

[00:06:54] Since then, she's been retaliated against with outlandish claims that she too is a rapist or a Vatican-paid double agent.

[00:07:01] The whistleblower fallout has been real.

[00:07:03] She joins us today to talk about her journey and why she's not going to stop working to de-platform culty characters like Nithanyanda,

[00:07:09] who's currently reported to be on the lam and hiding out in India and others like him.

[00:07:13] So this is something I just want people to put into context as well before we get into this.

[00:07:17] This guy, who's quote on the lam according to India Times, has his own island now called Kaleesa.

[00:07:24] It's his own country, right?

[00:07:26] This is a guy who's supposedly on the lam from the FBI in Interpol.

[00:07:29] Interpol issued something that's called a blue corner notice.

[00:07:32] That allows Interpol to locate or identify and gather information on this guy, right?

[00:07:36] So supposedly he's dodging that, has a country, has a website selling his videos and paraphernalia and merch.

[00:07:44] And his country has its own passport and flag which admits you to the country 11 dimension and 14 locusts.

[00:07:52] Interpol and FBI can't find this guy.

[00:07:54] So you're expecting us to believe this guy is accused of rape and all these things as his own country and website.

[00:08:00] So enjoy this one because this one's absurd in a lot of ways.

[00:08:03] Without further ado, here's our guest, Sarah Landry.

[00:08:07] Welcome Sarah.

[00:08:21] Thank you Sarah.

[00:08:22] Hi Sarahs.

[00:08:23] Hi.

[00:08:24] See what I did there?

[00:08:26] Yeah.

[00:08:27] This episode is nippy and the Sarahs.

[00:08:30] We may refer to ourselves as Sarah E.

[00:08:33] Host of A Little Bit Cultie, Sarah L.

[00:08:35] The guest on A Little Bit Cultie today.

[00:08:37] You're going to figure that one out I think.

[00:08:39] Sarah where are you calling from?

[00:08:41] Where are you these days?

[00:08:42] I'm in Southern Alberta back in my hometown, a bit south of Calgary and long time listener, first time caller.

[00:08:49] So it's really good to be on the air with you.

[00:08:51] It's so wonderful to finally be doing this.

[00:08:53] I know we've been social media friends for a long time and I really commend all the work that you've done to expose the truth about your former guru.

[00:09:03] And your Twitter posts have been informative too.

[00:09:06] I'm rarely on Twitter but your feed comes across mine a lot.

[00:09:09] Yeah I think you both have inspired me a lot to be outspoken and just not bother about whatever counter attacks come from the cult but just keep telling the truth because it does reach people.

[00:09:21] It does.

[00:09:22] The irony is not lost on me.

[00:09:23] Yeah well bring our listeners up to speed and obviously we'll have mentioned the doc, the vice doc which we found educational but like really hard to follow in terms of I know you didn't make it so I'm not criticizing you.

[00:09:36] It's just there's so much.

[00:09:38] There's a lot of variables to overcome and watching it.

[00:09:41] Timeline ones is hard one for me when they go back and forth but I mean I got it.

[00:09:44] I get it.

[00:09:45] The timeline is hard but mostly I just found like compared to some of the other cult exposés that have been out there is that like a lot of what I think what's great especially with the vow is how they really show what was good about it, you know like what the draw was.

[00:09:57] And I felt like I got tidbits of that from you and also from Jordan.

[00:10:00] Yeah they threw us right into the trauma right away.

[00:10:03] Yeah versus like what was good before the bad shit started happening.

[00:10:07] Maybe you could take us back to that.

[00:10:08] Did they ask you about that the filmmakers?

[00:10:10] Not really no.

[00:10:11] I think the reason is it was made by Vice India not by Vice Global and specifically aimed at an Indian audience.

[00:10:20] So for the majority of people in India he's been a household name for like the past nearly 20 years.

[00:10:28] Got it.

[00:10:29] If it had been made for a Western audience it probably would have gone more into what were the draws, what was good about it.

[00:10:35] That's a good point.

[00:10:36] Yeah tell us about where you were at when you found him what was going on in your life and what did you think you were signing up for?

[00:10:42] Okay well it's funny I don't know if you remember Sarah but we discussed this like two and a half years ago once.

[00:10:49] And I remember you told me if you had caught me first you would have recruited me into Nexium and I kind of caught you.

[00:10:55] Absolutely.

[00:10:56] And I told you well if I had found you first I would have brought you to the Pionanda so here we go.

[00:11:02] Here we go battle of the bad gurus.

[00:11:04] Yeah battle of the gurus.

[00:11:05] Battle of the Sarah recruiters.

[00:11:07] Right.

[00:11:08] Yeah so at the time I had lived in Vancouver to attend art school at Emily Carr and I got a little disillusioned by the art scene because they were really pushing shock value disturbing subject matter which isn't what I was into you know I wanted to make beautiful things.

[00:11:27] And I'm not sure how familiar you were with Brandville Island but it's like an artist even.

[00:11:32] Yes.

[00:11:33] Oh yes.

[00:11:34] We live near it.

[00:11:35] 20 minute walk from us.

[00:11:37] Oh it's my fate I probably walked past your place to get to school because I'd walked from my apartment on Heather Street down the seawall.

[00:11:44] Yeah so by going to school on Brandville Island I found the crystal arc and dragon space and all these really mystical little shops.

[00:11:53] I loved those places.

[00:11:54] I used to work with dragon space but my favorite place ever worked.

[00:11:58] I spent so much money there in the 90s.

[00:12:01] Thank you.

[00:12:02] So many crystals and tarot cards and I'm surprised we never met.

[00:12:05] We may have met actually.

[00:12:06] We may have met.

[00:12:07] I may have sold something to you and we just didn't know because we weren't in the cult yet.

[00:12:11] I feel like this is the beginning of a movie.

[00:12:13] We need to write something based on this the Sarah's and their different cults intersecting at dragon space.

[00:12:18] Actually that would be so cool right because we both got into these big cults and then we both became whistleblowers.

[00:12:24] I love it.

[00:12:25] I have goosebumps.

[00:12:26] Yeah.

[00:12:27] I love the origin of Brandville Island, the origin of whistleblowers.

[00:12:30] Yes.

[00:12:31] I like it.

[00:12:32] If you want to whistleblower you just go visit Brandville Island.

[00:12:35] Go visit Brandville Island.

[00:12:36] Dragon Space would love this if it's included.

[00:12:38] Go buy something from Dragon Space.

[00:12:40] So you were working there.

[00:12:41] You were disillusioned with art school.

[00:12:43] Yeah and so I felt like the beauty I was searching was more available in the spiritual world than the fine art community.

[00:12:51] So I started going to spiritual talks at Fanny and Books and things at the Buddhist Center.

[00:12:57] There was a Rinpoche who visited and he just seemed so fascinating.

[00:13:02] And one day I was on my way home from work and I just felt compelled to get off the bus and to go into a center on Broadway that had a sign that said free meditation.

[00:13:14] And it looked fairly innocuous.

[00:13:16] It looked like just the front.

[00:13:17] It was called Life Bliss Foundation.

[00:13:19] I got there.

[00:13:20] It seemed like synchronous perfect timing because as soon as I stepped up to the door, a lady opened it and said we're starting the meditation in five minutes.

[00:13:30] I was coming to lock the door but you're the last one to arrive.

[00:13:33] Come on in.

[00:13:34] That made me feel like it was predestined or something.

[00:13:38] And the meditation was wonderful.

[00:13:41] We sat in a big room.

[00:13:43] They were burning incense.

[00:13:44] There was really cool sitar music playing in the background.

[00:13:48] There was a fairly large crowd, mostly Indian people but a few Western people.

[00:13:53] And the meditation was like nothing I'd ever done before.

[00:13:56] And I think it would have been a red flag if I had known anything about Rajneesh and Osho because it was basically a hijacked version of his dynamic meditation.

[00:14:07] So it started with chaotic breathing, then intense humming and putting the attention in each of the seven chakras.

[00:14:16] Followed by this really beautiful Sanskrit chant that they told us to just sit in the space of listening.

[00:14:24] And this gives a connection to the guru who brought down this technology, who made this meditation available.

[00:14:31] Did they use the word technology?

[00:14:33] They used the word technology.

[00:14:34] Yes.

[00:14:35] A lot.

[00:14:36] Red flag.

[00:14:37] Red flag.

[00:14:38] Yeah.

[00:14:39] Technology is getting a bag wrap.

[00:14:41] Yeah.

[00:14:42] I remember they would tell us that Nithyananda's teachings are a technology stack for enlightenment.

[00:14:47] So very red flaggy.

[00:14:49] But at the time I had no idea.

[00:14:51] I just thought this feels good.

[00:14:53] I felt really energized after the meditation.

[00:14:55] I've been a strict vegan since the age of 13.

[00:14:58] So it was really cool for me that all the food they served us was vegan.

[00:15:02] And I liked that.

[00:15:04] They told us that this is a tradition for those who want to live a life of ahimsa, of nonviolence and compassion.

[00:15:12] And there were things that struck me as weird when I was first there that I pushed past my initial hesitation because I wanted to understand it.

[00:15:22] So the weird thing is everyone was dressed in white head to toe.

[00:15:26] And I thought that was a little weird.

[00:15:28] It was a little bit culty.

[00:15:29] And I didn't know that.

[00:15:31] So they told us that in the yoga sampradaya, the color white absorbs more energy and dark colors repel energy.

[00:15:39] And I was wearing a black shirt and they said you're closed because you're wearing black.

[00:15:43] So if you wear white, you let in all of this divinity.

[00:15:47] If you wear black, it's like you're closing yourself off.

[00:15:49] So I feel like even from day one, I started changing my wardrobe choices.

[00:15:55] I always wear my hair down in interviews now because they told us it curses people if they see the ends of your hair as a woman.

[00:16:03] And so always tie your hair up in a bun or wear it in a braid.

[00:16:07] Because if you wear your hair loose, whoever looks at you will have a bad day.

[00:16:11] So there were really weird little cultural things that I accepted them because I thought well this is just Hinduism.

[00:16:19] And I didn't know much about Hinduism other than that I thought the deities were beautiful and I liked the music.

[00:16:26] But yeah, I think where I was at in that time of life was seeking.

[00:16:31] You were early 20s, right?

[00:16:33] Yeah, I was 24.

[00:16:34] You know, I heard you say something run the reasons that you let it go is because you wanted to understand it.

[00:16:39] And I think that's a good kind of hook because ultimately I think what we find out is there's nothing really to understand.

[00:16:46] Exactly.

[00:16:47] You go into it quote open wanting to understand and there's nothing really there of substance to understand, which has you thinking that it's you.

[00:16:57] Exactly.

[00:16:58] You nailed it.

[00:16:59] Like they would actually say if anybody had a question, for example in the meditation halls men had to sit on one side women had to sit on the other side.

[00:17:07] And married couples would sometimes say hey like we came to this program together why can't we sit next to each other?

[00:17:13] And separate you.

[00:17:14] They'd separate us.

[00:17:15] If you attend a program with a best friend or a parent, they will give you a different roommate, not the person you signed up with because they didn't want you to talk to each other and vent your doubts or talk about hey,

[00:17:30] you know what I didn't really feel anything in that energy darshan.

[00:17:33] Did you they would put newcomers with long timers.

[00:17:36] We did that at lunches too.

[00:17:38] Yeah, we would do that at lunch.

[00:17:40] We go talk to people.

[00:17:41] We spread out we'd like divide and conquer.

[00:17:43] No, we were specifically like all the coaches go and like make sure that the new students weren't like huddling being like this is a bit weird right?

[00:17:49] We did that.

[00:17:50] So I guess my question, Sarah is did they overtly say hey, let's separate them for these reasons was that an open policy was like it was.

[00:17:59] They wouldn't tell that to you if you were signing up to attend a program.

[00:18:03] But the staff would know that.

[00:18:04] Yeah, and nobody was paid.

[00:18:06] It was all volunteers.

[00:18:08] So all the volunteers knew that all the they called them Audina bosses, the people who live in his Audinum, which is like a fancy word for ashram with the temple in it.

[00:18:18] So yeah, they would literally tell us if a family stays together as a family, if one of the kids has a temper tantrum and wants to leave, we lose the whole family.

[00:18:28] But if you separate them and the kid throws a tantrum and wants to leave the volunteers with that kid can calm the kid down and it won't affect the parents connection to.

[00:18:38] They would call him swamiji.

[00:18:40] My mom coined the phrase scammy G for him instead.

[00:18:43] So now I call him that.

[00:18:45] I like that.

[00:18:46] They would overtly separate people on purpose so that whoever had a doubt could be talked into believing it also creates division in the family because if one person's deeper in and the others like hold on a second, that's a problem.

[00:18:59] Yeah, I want to know a little bit more about how you got from just taking the classes to becoming a full devotee.

[00:19:06] What was the timeline for that?

[00:19:08] And you know, if you tell us the whole thing, but like what were the sort of major steps in your commitment?

[00:19:12] Yeah, it was very, very sudden for me.

[00:19:15] It was almost instantaneous because the day that I went in for a free program was a Wednesday and the following Wednesday, Nitya Nanda was physically in Vancouver to do a program in person for one day.

[00:19:28] And so I didn't have much time to think about whether or not I want to meet him or see him in person.

[00:19:34] It was like now or never.

[00:19:36] Scarcity.

[00:19:37] Yeah, it could have been his last world tour, which it was because he couldn't travel after the rape kids got filed.

[00:19:44] So yeah, from one Wednesday to the next Wednesday, I started watching all of his videos on YouTube.

[00:19:51] He had a huge library of discourses that he had given.

[00:19:55] And at first there was a bit of an accent barrier.

[00:19:58] I had trouble understanding what he was saying, but after watching maybe three or four videos, I could understand him really fluently.

[00:20:06] And in those days, like back in 2009, everything he'd recorded up till then was very humble and sounded very sincere.

[00:20:15] He wasn't preaching anything extreme like you have to become Hindu to follow him.

[00:20:21] What he said that really grabbed me at first was that there are multiple paths that lead to enlightenment.

[00:20:29] And each path is valid, each path is equal.

[00:20:33] Each religion and each teacher is like a garden.

[00:20:37] And the job of the seekers to visit each garden, pick the flowers that you love most.

[00:20:42] And with that you string the garland of your enlightenment.

[00:20:45] Oh, I love that.

[00:20:46] It was so beautiful.

[00:20:48] I'm sure he plagiarized somebody.

[00:20:50] I just don't know who yet.

[00:20:52] I loved it so much and I teared up and thought, well, this is what I've been looking for because I didn't like the traditions that boast exclusivity.

[00:21:00] Like it's this or nothing, all or nothing.

[00:21:03] And so he felt safe at first because of that.

[00:21:06] And when I went to his one day program, which was called Kalpataru, I was a little shocked by how many people were there.

[00:21:13] There were about five or 600 people in a big, it seemed like a wedding venue kind of a hall in Suri.

[00:21:19] And they had security guards guarding the stage because women were trying to throw themselves at him.

[00:21:25] Like people were literally standing up and trying to get onto the stage.

[00:21:29] So he had like a full security force hired, and I wasn't expecting that.

[00:21:34] And I remember the moment he entered the hall, I felt an energy which may have been placebo of fact it could have been my imagination.

[00:21:45] But I believed I felt something.

[00:21:47] And so the confirmation bias kicked in and I thought, well, he must be radiating something powerful because if he wasn't, why am I feeling this way?

[00:21:56] And so it was pretty quick that I became what they would call a devotee, like a follower who believes in him.

[00:22:03] And then flash forward a couple of years after I had attended a few more of the programs and gone to India.

[00:22:11] I think the day I became a disciple, which is devotee, like you believe in him and you worship him.

[00:22:18] Disciple, it's like you do what he tells you to do.

[00:22:21] So it's a more serious commitment.

[00:22:23] That happened for me when he went for a live video discourse.

[00:22:28] And at the beginning of it, either he cried or he pretended to cry, but he was like shaking and wiping his eyes and saying,

[00:22:36] there's nobody here to help me with my mission.

[00:22:39] People come to me, they take my energy, they take my teachings, they go back to the world.

[00:22:44] They benefit, but there's nobody here to help me enlighten humanity.

[00:22:49] And he made it sound like he was all alone in this and he started denouncing a lot of his inner circle people,

[00:22:57] like all of the Sanyasis who are sitting at my feet here.

[00:23:01] They're just here to escape the world and to eat the free food and to have the free accommodation,

[00:23:06] but there's nobody here taking responsibility.

[00:23:09] And they closed the curtain and ended the satsang, which is what his discourses were called really abruptly.

[00:23:16] And that whole night I couldn't sleep.

[00:23:18] I was thinking like how much do the people around him suck if he's crying over the fact that nobody's helping with his mission?

[00:23:25] I felt sorry for him.

[00:23:27] So the next day he gives a really short discourse and said,

[00:23:32] if you felt pained by the fact that I have no one helping in my mission,

[00:23:37] then that means you are being called to take it up as your mission.

[00:23:42] And the way you can do that is to bring 10 people to the next Inner Awakening.

[00:23:46] And of course that's a 21-day program.

[00:23:49] That's like their brainwashing mechanism is this Inner Awakening program.

[00:23:53] And it cost at that point $10,000 per participant.

[00:23:57] So he basically made all of us into overzealous salespeople

[00:24:02] feeling like we're charged with a divine mission to recruit people to his paid program.

[00:24:07] And I knew my family wouldn't be interested in going.

[00:24:11] I knew none of my friends could afford it.

[00:24:13] We were all, you know, ex-art school students paying off our student loans working retail jobs.

[00:24:19] So I thought the only way I can become his disciple and bring 10 people to Inner Awakening

[00:24:25] is through YouTube.

[00:24:27] So I started making YouTube videos talking about what I had experienced in India,

[00:24:32] kind of reading pages out of his books at random and saying like,

[00:24:36] look at this, you can open to any random page

[00:24:39] and the message will be something exactly pertaining to your situation

[00:24:44] which really caught a lot of people.

[00:24:46] And there were more than 10 who went to the next Inner Awakening from my YouTube videos.

[00:24:51] And so I started to get really encouraged by his organization to make more videos

[00:24:57] and to keep doing what I was doing.

[00:24:59] And for me, that was kind of fun because I could still live in Vancouver

[00:25:04] and do my thing and enjoy my life.

[00:25:06] And on the side just make a video once a week.

[00:25:09] So it didn't feel like he had overtaken my entire life

[00:25:13] until 2015 in May.

[00:25:16] It was the year my mom retired, so she said,

[00:25:19] okay, finally I've got time.

[00:25:20] I'm going to come with you to one of these Inner Awakenings.

[00:25:23] And from the day that we got there, I was exceptionally loved-bombed

[00:25:28] by the guru and by everyone around him.

[00:25:31] He called me to sit at the very center of the floor where he had his throne set up,

[00:25:36] the closest person to him.

[00:25:38] How did that feel?

[00:25:39] It felt really good at that time.

[00:25:42] Yeah.

[00:25:43] Because, yeah, I'd always been just an anonymous person in the crowd before that.

[00:25:47] I didn't know he knew me by name.

[00:25:49] Oh, okay.

[00:25:50] Yeah.

[00:25:51] So for five years you were just a devotee and then more of a disciple

[00:25:56] once you started doing social media for him.

[00:25:58] But you weren't having personal interactions with him?

[00:26:01] No, none at all.

[00:26:03] I had no personal interact.

[00:26:05] The only time I would have an interaction with him

[00:26:07] was during what they called darshan

[00:26:09] where people line up on either sides of the stage and one by one we go

[00:26:13] and he'd touch our third eye or put his hand on our head.

[00:26:16] So my only interactions were in the public space.

[00:26:20] Let me clear this up.

[00:26:21] So based on your YouTube videos, you were driving people-

[00:26:24] You were driving business to him?

[00:26:25] Yes.

[00:26:26] Yeah, so he knows who you are.

[00:26:27] Yeah, now he knows who you are.

[00:26:29] Before we get to this stage of it, can you just paint for our audience

[00:26:33] and for us too a little bit of-

[00:26:35] Or maybe this wasn't the case yet because you were still in Vancouver.

[00:26:38] What's the day-to-day use of these tools?

[00:26:40] Like what's your life like?

[00:26:41] You didn't live at the ashram at this point.

[00:26:43] So you weren't, between 2010 and 2015, you weren't at the ashram

[00:26:46] but like what's your life like in regards to how this works?

[00:26:49] Like are you showing up once a week?

[00:26:50] Do you do it all day long?

[00:26:52] Like what's it like?

[00:26:53] Yeah, so the way it would work for those of us outside of the Audinum

[00:26:57] we could work our jobs as usual or interact with friends and family as usual

[00:27:02] but every single day at 7 p.m. Vancouver time which was 7 a.m. in India

[00:27:09] he would do a one-hour live discourse that was mandatory for all devotees

[00:27:14] and so seven days a week, every single day no matter what I was doing in my life

[00:27:20] I knew I had to log into his page at exactly 7 o'clock

[00:27:25] and be there for an hour to watch his discourse.

[00:27:28] So it didn't leave much room for a social life.

[00:27:30] You can't really go out for dinner with people if you have to be home from 7-8 every day

[00:27:35] and we did that religiously.

[00:27:37] Nobody missed his so-called satsang

[00:27:40] and we would go to volunteer at the temple which in Vancouver we didn't really have a temple

[00:27:47] we had a center, a meditation center

[00:27:50] but that could be anything from arranging flowers next to the screen

[00:27:54] where they projected his discourse to welcoming in newcomers

[00:27:58] or distributing materials like helping with the printing for his pamphlets and brochures

[00:28:04] and in that sense even just being an outside devotee

[00:28:08] there was still a level of commitment involved

[00:28:11] we all felt like his teachings were working for us

[00:28:14] because people would get into a really happy state

[00:28:18] when the curtain would open and in this live video he would start talking

[00:28:22] there was something really charismatic about his way of speaking

[00:28:26] he had a way of talking about generalities that felt specific to you

[00:28:31] so he could be talking about how the world is looking to see what it can get from you

[00:28:36] but your enlightenment is what you can give to yourself

[00:28:41] and share with others and radiate it to raise the frequency of the world

[00:28:45] it was very, very general but we would each apply it to ourselves in a way that felt specific

[00:28:51] so after his discourses you'd hear people in the center saying

[00:28:55] wow earlier today I was talking to a friend about why this feels like that

[00:29:00] and he said it, he said it

[00:29:02] it's like people would think that he was telepathically hearing their thoughts

[00:29:07] and then saying it in the discourses

[00:29:09] Was there a particular, and I know it's hard to go back to when things were good and golden and shiny

[00:29:15] but if you were to summarize the pillars of the teachings

[00:29:20] like if I had met you and you tried to recruit me and like what's it all about

[00:29:23] like what's the goal of the company and what are the beliefs

[00:29:26] how would you have summarized that?

[00:29:27] I would have said it's an open framework of Sanatana Dharma

[00:29:31] where we can integrate the ancient teachings and the Vedas and the Upanishads

[00:29:36] and the Agamas but apply them to modern day life

[00:29:39] and what he would say is that in the ancient times when the scriptures were first brought down

[00:29:45] by the ancient Urişis and Munis and enlightened beings

[00:29:49] they were talking to a society in a sat-yuga

[00:29:53] which was like a golden era where everyone had a deeper connection to existence than people do today

[00:29:59] and that in the time since those scriptures were revealed

[00:30:02] humanity has fallen down into the Kali Yuga

[00:30:05] which is like an age of darkness

[00:30:07] and so people have lost their connection

[00:30:09] and we can read the scriptures but we don't understand how they apply to us

[00:30:14] and he was there to help his followers get what he called a yogic body and a Vedic mind

[00:30:20] so your body will become strengthened through the yoga and the satvic diet

[00:30:24] and your mind will be strengthened through the absorption of those scriptures

[00:30:29] and we believed it, I fell for it

[00:30:31] I really believe that that's what he was giving us

[00:30:34] Do you use any of those tools, technology, beliefs

[00:30:37] like is any of that still part of your life or did you throw it all out?

[00:30:40] I don't really know, I threw it all out

[00:30:42] I realized that we can read a Vedic scripture and benefit from it

[00:30:47] we don't need a middleman

[00:30:49] you don't need some greedy guy who either wants to rape you or steal your money

[00:30:54] to be the intermediary between you and some ancient truth

[00:30:59] I didn't throw out Sanatana Dharma

[00:31:01] like I've always loved Hinduism

[00:31:03] from the time I was a kid and I had a vision of goddess Kali

[00:31:07] and that was kind of the beginning of my fascination with Hinduism

[00:31:11] so I've kept that but I've thrown away the way he would misappropriate

[00:31:16] or translate the scriptures to suit his agenda

[00:31:19] The con man

[00:31:20] The con man

[00:31:21] Take out the con man

[00:31:22] Yes, exactly

[00:31:51] We tell our stories, we change the world

[00:31:54] A little bit culty is proud to support the hashtag I got out project

[00:31:58] which empowers survivors of cultic abuse to share their stories online

[00:32:02] as a catalyst for education, prevention and healing

[00:32:05] Learn more about the hashtag I got out movement

[00:32:08] and find resources at I got out dot org

[00:32:38] hashtag crushing it

[00:32:39] nature is a non-negotiable

[00:32:40] not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me

[00:32:42] and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded

[00:32:45] therapy day is a bit like my nature walks

[00:32:48] I try to not miss it

[00:32:49] and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority

[00:32:52] I get so much out of it

[00:32:54] it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place

[00:32:57] and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need

[00:33:00] and sometimes what I don't need

[00:33:01] like I don't need to be overbooking myself

[00:33:02] just because I hate to say no to people

[00:33:04] you know what I mean

[00:33:05] thanks therapy, thanks for helping me see that

[00:33:07] and if you're thinking of starting therapy

[00:33:09] give BetterHelp a try

[00:33:10] it's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible

[00:33:13] and suited to your schedule

[00:33:15] just fill out a brief questionnaire

[00:33:16] and get matched with a licensed therapist

[00:33:18] and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge

[00:33:21] look even when we know what makes us happy

[00:33:23] it's hard to make time for it

[00:33:25] but when you feel like you have no time for yourself

[00:33:26] non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever

[00:33:29] never skip therapy day with BetterHelp

[00:33:32] visit BetterHelp.com slash culti today

[00:33:34] to get 10% off your first month

[00:33:36] that's BetterHelp H-E-L-P dot com slash culti

[00:33:40] Meals bring people together

[00:33:42] but for many families providing their next meal

[00:33:45] can be a challenge

[00:33:46] you can help by participating in Macy's

[00:33:48] annual Feeding the Hungry food drive

[00:33:50] all proceeds go toward local food banks and families

[00:33:53] now through January 31st

[00:33:55] you can purchase an icon in store or online

[00:33:58] or watch out for the blue Feeding the Hungry shelf tags

[00:34:01] where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries

[00:34:05] together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's

[00:34:10] so when do you go from devotee living in Vancouver

[00:34:16] to moving into the ashram

[00:34:19] during that May program

[00:34:21] where he pulled me to sit close to him

[00:34:23] and really love bombed me

[00:34:25] there was a night when one of the senior swamis

[00:34:28] on his personal team

[00:34:29] so like the really inner circle inner circle group

[00:34:33] pulled me aside at the end of the day's program

[00:34:36] and said why don't you sit with me let's have some coffee let's talk

[00:34:39] that felt very special

[00:34:40] that guy's name was Niana Swaroopa Swami

[00:34:43] and he is one of the people who died mysteriously

[00:34:46] after deciding to escape the cult

[00:34:48] I really still want to know what happened to him

[00:34:51] which is why I mentioned him by name

[00:34:53] but I felt like it was a very special thing

[00:34:56] because this is one of the people

[00:34:58] who stays with Nityananda physically

[00:35:00] like he lives in his room

[00:35:02] takes care of him feeds him washes up after him

[00:35:05] so it felt really cool that he wanted to spend time with me

[00:35:08] because he was usually not around program participants

[00:35:12] and he told me you know swami G is so excited that you're here

[00:35:16] he was telling everyone how lucky we are to have you

[00:35:19] as a part of this community

[00:35:21] what do you do in Canada

[00:35:23] so I told him like I make jewelry

[00:35:25] and I sell it on Etsy

[00:35:27] I'm really into crystals and I do tarot readings

[00:35:30] I love that kind of mystical stuff

[00:35:32] and he asked me do you think that you can

[00:35:35] enlighten humanity through that work

[00:35:38] and I said no I feel like I can share my joy for jewelry

[00:35:42] I might be able to inspire one or two people

[00:35:46] but I don't think I could enlighten humanity doing this

[00:35:49] so he said then why don't you become an Adi Navasi

[00:35:53] why don't you take the vow of Ramacharya

[00:35:55] in the monastic order

[00:35:57] and it's not that I had never wanted to do that

[00:35:59] I had actually applied for that in 2010

[00:36:02] when I attended my first program

[00:36:04] but the scandal happened

[00:36:06] and so all the applications were denied

[00:36:09] and we were told they couldn't take anybody

[00:36:11] at that point in time

[00:36:12] Backtrack for a second what was the scandal in 2010

[00:36:15] and how was it shared with you

[00:36:16] like what were you told was happening

[00:36:17] so in early February of 2010

[00:36:20] the entire country of India went crazy

[00:36:25] over a sex tape that got leaked to the media

[00:36:28] of Nithyananda getting like a blow job

[00:36:31] from an actress named Ranjita

[00:36:33] and we were all told that it's a morphed video

[00:36:37] that anti-Hindu elements had planted cameras

[00:36:41] in his bedroom

[00:36:42] and then using some kind of CGI

[00:36:44] made it look like he was having an affair with her

[00:36:47] but it wasn't true

[00:36:49] and that Catholic missionaries were behind it

[00:36:52] and they're doing an investigation to find out

[00:36:55] who had morphed this video

[00:36:58] they told us that the ex-disciples

[00:37:01] who were giving interviews with the media

[00:37:04] saying no this is real we took the videos

[00:37:06] they told us that those ex-disciples

[00:37:09] had attempted to extort money from them

[00:37:12] by saying if you don't give us money

[00:37:15] we're going to create a fake video

[00:37:17] and release it to the media

[00:37:19] so Nithyananda spun it in a way

[00:37:21] that made him sound like a victim

[00:37:23] sounds familiar

[00:37:25] for those of our listeners who haven't yet watched

[00:37:28] the vice documentary my daughter has joined

[00:37:30] a cult the sex tape

[00:37:32] I mean they didn't obviously share

[00:37:34] it looked like a cuttle tape

[00:37:37] it looks like a wrestlemania

[00:37:39] because I guess they're obviously not going to show

[00:37:41] the blow job on TV or in the documentary

[00:37:44] but it wasn't like oh sex tape

[00:37:47] it was like oh are they in the spoon

[00:37:50] so it's good to know what it actually was

[00:37:53] so that was released in India on TV

[00:37:55] and everyone went nuts for it

[00:37:57] and then it was denied but nothing happened

[00:37:59] he did get arrested so he fled his ashram

[00:38:02] I think a day or two before the tape was released

[00:38:05] because they had heard of an advance warning

[00:38:08] like one of his rape victims

[00:38:10] a lady named Artirao

[00:38:12] and one of his ex inner circle people

[00:38:16] who was his personal driver

[00:38:18] a guy named Lenin Karupan

[00:38:20] they had let somebody else in the organization

[00:38:23] know that they were going to take this measure

[00:38:25] if he didn't just own up to the public

[00:38:28] about the fact that he had sexually abused people

[00:38:31] and what they really wanted was for him to come clean

[00:38:34] like you know what you've gotten away with this charade

[00:38:36] for long enough you've conned people into thinking

[00:38:39] you're a celibate sannyasi

[00:38:41] we know you're not, you've hurt people

[00:38:43] they wanted like an apology

[00:38:45] I remember somewhere in that docu series

[00:38:47] Arti said that the reason she felt the need

[00:38:50] to release that video to the public

[00:38:53] was that when Nitya Nanda made it really clear

[00:38:55] that he is never going to take responsibility

[00:38:58] for his crimes

[00:38:59] she felt nobody would believe her

[00:39:01] that he's a rapist

[00:39:03] unless they could see him

[00:39:05] engaged in a sexual act with somebody

[00:39:07] even that's not enough

[00:39:09] it wasn't for a lot of us because we thought

[00:39:11] hey it's a morphed video

[00:39:12] why should I believe an anti-Hindu abuser

[00:39:15] so it's really disturbing that

[00:39:18] a lot of us didn't believe in that video

[00:39:21] I personally didn't even watch it

[00:39:23] because I didn't want to see something made

[00:39:26] to attack my guru

[00:39:28] everything you're saying is consistent

[00:39:30] with the nature of people

[00:39:32] that are under some sort of coercive control

[00:39:35] I mean we're talking about this last night Sarah

[00:39:37] one of the things about coercive control

[00:39:39] it has going for it

[00:39:40] is a lot of people think it's bullshit

[00:39:42] and that's why telling your story is so important

[00:39:44] but everything you're saying

[00:39:46] right Sarah?

[00:39:47] Yeah including like we didn't read a lot of the media

[00:39:49] against Keith because there was this whole

[00:39:52] teaching about like

[00:39:53] you had a thought object of somebody

[00:39:55] like what you think about somebody

[00:39:57] like I have a thought object of you Sarah

[00:39:59] of our brief interactions

[00:40:00] and what you've done in the media

[00:40:01] I don't know you that well

[00:40:03] but I have it like a thought of you

[00:40:05] and it's sort of like an object in my head

[00:40:07] and when you hear something negative about somebody

[00:40:09] your thought object changes

[00:40:11] right so even if it's not true

[00:40:13] like if I hear that you're actually an avid bowler

[00:40:16] you know

[00:40:17] and you're a bowling fiend or whatever

[00:40:19] I'm just trying to think of something that's not going to hurt

[00:40:21] my thought object of you

[00:40:23] even if you're like just kidding I'm not into bowling

[00:40:25] in my head I now have bowling linked with you

[00:40:27] so they taught us

[00:40:29] if you read anything negative about somebody

[00:40:31] or hear something negative you'll never be able to

[00:40:33] cleanse the thought object of that person

[00:40:35] so we were encouraged to never

[00:40:37] read the media because it's all the smear campaign

[00:40:39] that's dangerous because there's truth to that

[00:40:41] yeah yeah that is there is truth to that

[00:40:43] but there's the consistency of everyone being encouraged

[00:40:45] to ignore what's

[00:40:47] anything negative that's

[00:40:49] shared and I think that's just

[00:40:51] such a red flag

[00:40:53] for people if people are in something

[00:40:55] anything and media comes out

[00:40:57] and they're encouraged to not look at it

[00:40:59] that should be something to look at

[00:41:01] exactly

[00:41:03] Niti would do the same thing to all of us

[00:41:05] where he told us

[00:41:07] if we watch that morphed video

[00:41:09] even though it's not real

[00:41:11] we will see him as an ordinary man

[00:41:13] with ordinary lust and that

[00:41:15] that would interfere with his ability to

[00:41:17] transmit the cosmic consciousness

[00:41:19] to us and so it was this

[00:41:21] big fear in all of us

[00:41:23] that if we even accidentally see

[00:41:25] that video while walking down the street

[00:41:27] in Mumbai or something and we look into

[00:41:29] a shop and it's on their TV

[00:41:31] that would be detrimental to our

[00:41:33] Guru-disciple relationship

[00:41:35] so we not only didn't watch the video

[00:41:37] but we actively avoided exposing

[00:41:39] ourselves to any Indian media

[00:41:41] and it also became really

[00:41:43] difficult for us because

[00:41:45] 90% of the news was not in English

[00:41:47] it was in Kannada which is

[00:41:49] the local language where he had his

[00:41:51] Adinam or Tamil which is

[00:41:53] the local language from his birth state

[00:41:55] or Hindi or Bhujarati

[00:41:57] but there was very little English

[00:41:59] coverage of his scandal

[00:42:01] so even the few friends I had

[00:42:03] who tried to figure out what's the

[00:42:05] other side saying we couldn't

[00:42:07] there was a language barrier

[00:42:09] there's a word that you've used a number of times

[00:42:11] Adinam is that the same thing as an ashram

[00:42:13] or is that different? It is

[00:42:15] Adinam is more of a South Indian

[00:42:17] concept that refers to

[00:42:19] a Shyvite monastery temple complex

[00:42:21] so when there's an ashram

[00:42:23] and a temple combined in one

[00:42:25] so it's like a little self-sufficient

[00:42:27] spiritual community. It's like a

[00:42:29] kibbutz in Israel but with a temple

[00:42:31] and a guru. Yes.

[00:42:33] Yeah, there has to be a living guru

[00:42:35] there. Right.

[00:42:37] Sidebar, where did Eatprey love fall

[00:42:39] into total tangent?

[00:42:41] But I'm just like at the time of Eatprey

[00:42:43] love all kinds of women but especially

[00:42:45] white middle-aged women from all over

[00:42:47] North America go to India

[00:42:49] to like find themselves and get caught up

[00:42:51] like this. I'm just wondering.

[00:42:53] Eatprey love was published the year I found

[00:42:55] Niti and when I told

[00:42:57] the family that back then they didn't call it

[00:42:59] an Adinam yet, they called it an ashram

[00:43:01] so when I told them this December

[00:43:03] instead of coming home for Christmas I'm going to

[00:43:05] India to attend a program at this ashram

[00:43:07] my mom at first was like

[00:43:09] wait what? You have to come home

[00:43:11] for Christmas but one of my

[00:43:13] aunties who had read Eatprey love

[00:43:15] calmed her down and said no this is a really cool

[00:43:17] thing you should read this book you'll understand

[00:43:19] the journey your daughter is on

[00:43:21] and so that book was kind of like an

[00:43:23] anesthetic. Wow.

[00:43:25] I knew I brought it up for a reason it wasn't a

[00:43:27] EPL. EPL man.

[00:43:29] Reakin Havoc on the world

[00:43:31] through EPL. Maybe we'll have Elizabeth

[00:43:33] Gilbert on one day and

[00:43:35] talk to her about her effects in the world

[00:43:37] as an ashram supporter.

[00:43:39] Yes.

[00:43:41] Well Niti Ananda he told people

[00:43:43] that she was

[00:43:45] not a true spiritual seeker

[00:43:47] because a true spiritual seeker

[00:43:49] would have done eat love pray

[00:43:51] this was one of his disadvantages

[00:43:53] and he said

[00:43:55] eating is like the base human

[00:43:57] instinct survival need

[00:43:59] praying is the most divine

[00:44:01] human instinct where you connect with the

[00:44:03] cosmos and then love

[00:44:05] should come between those two because

[00:44:07] a baby is born and wants to eat

[00:44:09] matures a little once to fall in

[00:44:11] love and then matures even more

[00:44:13] and wants to connect with God so he

[00:44:15] told all of us don't read

[00:44:17] eat pray love because she's mixed up the order

[00:44:19] of course we'll make sure to pass

[00:44:21] that on to her if she comes on our podcast

[00:44:23] yeah you got it

[00:44:25] Hey a little bit cultie

[00:44:27] listeners bless your little bitty hearts

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[00:45:37] thanks again we adore

[00:45:39] you this episode is sponsored

[00:45:48] by better help what are

[00:45:50] your self-care non-negotiables

[00:45:52] maybe you never skip leg day

[00:45:54] or never miss yoga maybe it's getting

[00:45:56] eight hours of sleep and that's my personal

[00:45:58] and everyone's dream isn't it

[00:46:00] well I definitely have some non-negotiables

[00:46:02] like I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:46:04] and I'm spending literally as much time as I can

[00:46:06] outside in nature hashtag

[00:46:08] cold pools hashtag crushing it

[00:46:10] nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh

[00:46:12] air and the trees around me and I start to feel

[00:46:14] not great not myself not grounded

[00:46:16] therapy day is a bit like my nature

[00:46:18] walks I try to not miss it

[00:46:20] and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around

[00:46:22] if I make it a priority I get so much out of it

[00:46:24] it helps me put my worries

[00:46:26] and anxieties in their rightful place and helps

[00:46:28] me clear my mind so I can focus on what I

[00:46:30] really need and sometimes what I don't need

[00:46:32] like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because

[00:46:34] I hate to say no to people you know what I mean

[00:46:36] thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that

[00:46:38] and if you're thinking of starting therapy

[00:46:40] give better help a try it's entirely

[00:46:42] online designed to be convenient flexible and

[00:46:44] suited to your schedule just fill out a brief

[00:46:46] questionnaire and get matched with a licensed

[00:46:48] therapist and switch therapists anytime

[00:46:50] for no additional charge look

[00:46:52] even when we know what makes us happy it's

[00:46:54] hard to make time for it but when you feel

[00:46:56] like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables

[00:46:58] like therapy are more important than ever

[00:47:00] never skip therapy day with better help

[00:47:02] visit better help dot com slash culty today

[00:47:04] to get 10% off your first month

[00:47:06] that's better help H E L P

[00:47:08] dot com slash culty

[00:47:10] the frankies were a picture

[00:47:12] perfect influencer family

[00:47:14] but everything wasn't

[00:47:16] as it seemed

[00:47:18] I just had a 12 year old boy

[00:47:20] so appeared asking for help

[00:47:22] he's emaciated he's got

[00:47:24] tape around his legs

[00:47:26] Ruby Frankie is his mom's name

[00:47:28] Infamous is covering Ruby

[00:47:30] Frankie the world of

[00:47:32] Mormonism and a secret therapy group

[00:47:34] that ruined lives

[00:47:36] listen to Infamous

[00:47:38] I wear you get your podcasts

[00:47:40] back to the timeline

[00:47:45] anything else you want to share about how good it was

[00:47:47] like when things were like when I heard Jordan

[00:47:49] in the dock explaining the mission

[00:47:51] and like you just thought it was the best thing ever

[00:47:53] and like can you paint the vibes

[00:47:55] paint the picture for us about what that was like

[00:47:57] yeah the things that were good about it

[00:47:59] that made me feel like I was really

[00:48:01] meant to be a part of this

[00:48:03] were that I really loved

[00:48:05] everything about India I love

[00:48:07] the architecture of the ancient temples

[00:48:09] the way the deities look

[00:48:11] the clothing like you walk down

[00:48:13] any Indian street and

[00:48:15] half the women you see are wearing

[00:48:17] bright vibrant saris covered in

[00:48:19] rhinestones and glitter

[00:48:21] there was just something magical

[00:48:23] about the look, the aesthetic

[00:48:25] of India so I think I really felt

[00:48:27] for the visual glamour

[00:48:29] that was put on in India

[00:48:31] I love the music I love the

[00:48:33] sitar sounds it's just so

[00:48:35] different from what we hear on the radio

[00:48:37] here I started to believe

[00:48:39] that

[00:48:41] Nityananda was the one who was going to

[00:48:43] bring all the best things

[00:48:45] of India and make them available

[00:48:47] to those of us in the west

[00:48:49] so the way Jordan described

[00:48:51] how he felt like he found his tribe

[00:48:53] I felt that too because

[00:48:55] everyone who entered that

[00:48:57] audience whether they were Indian

[00:48:59] or western we all shared

[00:49:01] this common mission

[00:49:03] which was to enlighten

[00:49:05] the world and that's a red flag

[00:49:07] I've heard other guests of yours say this

[00:49:09] if your guru says that they are the only

[00:49:11] one who can enlighten

[00:49:13] the entire planet that's a red flag

[00:49:15] so Nityananda

[00:49:17] he radically shifted his

[00:49:19] deliverable like in the early

[00:49:21] days he said there are

[00:49:23] many paths each one is valid

[00:49:25] that shifted after the scandal

[00:49:27] I feel like if he was bad

[00:49:29] before that scandal he

[00:49:31] became full sinister

[00:49:33] after the scandal it's like

[00:49:35] he was overcompensating

[00:49:37] well that's the George Orwell quote

[00:49:39] about tyrants they use

[00:49:41] fraud and force and once the fraud

[00:49:43] is exposed they go full on with force

[00:49:45] that's exactly

[00:49:47] and they double down

[00:49:49] the thing that's most staggering about

[00:49:51] all of them is that even when they're caught

[00:49:53] they double down it's pretty amazing

[00:49:55] and also victimize themselves

[00:49:57] yes all of these

[00:49:59] spiritual structures have like some sort

[00:50:01] of construct about how being a victim

[00:50:03] isn't good and that

[00:50:05] there are no victims and you have choice

[00:50:07] and you have free will but the guru

[00:50:09] when accused of anything

[00:50:11] is a victim and always of a conspiracy

[00:50:13] exactly it's

[00:50:15] always a conspiracy against him of people

[00:50:17] who want to take him down and woe is me

[00:50:19] yeah I'm bringing this

[00:50:21] to the world and this is the slings and arrows that I

[00:50:23] endure and I expected it

[00:50:25] oh so you've listened to his discourse oh no that was Keith

[00:50:27] that's also Nityananda

[00:50:29] this is the manuscript

[00:50:31] for these things

[00:50:33] he literally told us like Sarah

[00:50:35] when you were saying

[00:50:37] nobody is a victim

[00:50:39] there was a whole special

[00:50:41] discourse that he gave

[00:50:43] about victim mentality

[00:50:45] and he said victim mentality

[00:50:47] is the lowest negative emotion

[00:50:49] you can fall into that will be

[00:50:51] like a black hole sucking other people

[00:50:53] down into your misery

[00:50:55] and that in reality

[00:50:57] you can never be violated because

[00:50:59] anything which you perceive as violating

[00:51:01] you is you violating

[00:51:03] that by your projection that it's violating

[00:51:05] you say that again

[00:51:07] that's word salad say it one more time

[00:51:09] you can never be violated

[00:51:11] anything which you perceive as

[00:51:13] violating you you are violating

[00:51:15] that through your projection

[00:51:17] which is saying that it has

[00:51:19] violated you

[00:51:21] gaslighting yourself so

[00:51:23] it's accusing you of doing the behavior

[00:51:25] that you're accusing someone of doing it

[00:51:27] which is abusive so the abuser

[00:51:29] the victim is the abuser

[00:51:31] it's a similar thing that we had

[00:51:33] he gave examples like part of the public shaming

[00:51:35] he had this thing he called the completion process

[00:51:37] what? it's called the completion process?

[00:51:39] he accused Teal Swan

[00:51:41] of plagiarizing him so that was another thing that happened

[00:51:43] oh I was going to say

[00:51:45] the glue-offs I want to see these gurus go at it

[00:51:47] oh let's pull them on a room

[00:51:49] total tangent

[00:51:51] side note I had a pitch

[00:51:53] for a reality show where I think they should get

[00:51:55] all of these people and put them on an island

[00:51:57] like survivor oh my god

[00:51:59] and each one has to

[00:52:01] wash each other and like the last gurus standing

[00:52:03] wins I love it

[00:52:05] it would be a 30 year show

[00:52:07] someone would have to die before they admit wrongdoing

[00:52:09] oh yeah definitely

[00:52:11] Teal Swan

[00:52:13] yeah Keith Reneary Tony Robbins

[00:52:15] I would bet on Tony Robbins

[00:52:17] yeah he'd win that guy's an endurance athlete

[00:52:19] he just he's up all day

[00:52:21] he's like it's your mother

[00:52:23] it's your mother

[00:52:25] and you're like fine

[00:52:27] he's like drinking charcoal water

[00:52:29] in the sauna

[00:52:31] he's like you got nothing on me

[00:52:33] yeah I could do this all day long

[00:52:35] excuse me I'm going to cold pool real quick

[00:52:39] we love cold pools just so you know

[00:52:41] we're not making fun of the cold pool but

[00:52:43] oh I'm a huge fan of the cold pool

[00:52:45] so that's my tangent I would love to meet that show

[00:52:47] happen and I did a podcast with

[00:52:49] a Canadian comedian guy and I brought that up

[00:52:51] and he said he actually has an agent

[00:52:53] who works with adult swim channel

[00:52:55] so he's like we could make it as a cartoon

[00:52:57] so that would be like a dream for me

[00:52:59] oh that is amazing

[00:53:01] right

[00:53:03] Sarah you can do some of the voice overs for it

[00:53:05] I would actually really like to play Teal Swan

[00:53:07] and by the way her followers

[00:53:09] I've never had a more aggressive

[00:53:11] group of people come after us

[00:53:13] just to explain how wrong we are

[00:53:15] and how she's not a cult and stuff

[00:53:17] and she's encouraging us to interview her

[00:53:19] and I think I want to

[00:53:21] I actually really want to have her

[00:53:23] like if I could have anybody on

[00:53:25] it would be Teal so just putting that there

[00:53:27] that would be the one episode I don't listen to

[00:53:29] I gotta tell you Sarah

[00:53:31] you might be on your own on that one

[00:53:33] well listen if it goes really bad

[00:53:35] we just don't use it

[00:53:37] it's not like it's live

[00:53:39] I would never do a live event

[00:53:41] what happens when she does her Jennifer Conley death stare to you

[00:53:43] I go that's not going to work on me

[00:53:45] I'll be like I know what you're doing

[00:53:47] I'm like that's an eye gaze

[00:53:49] and I'm not looking into your eyes

[00:53:51] and you can't get me

[00:53:53] imagine yourself

[00:53:55] walking into a forest

[00:53:57] you can see the path

[00:53:59] and the trees high above you

[00:54:01] the air is crisp

[00:54:03] you are walking towards your happy place

[00:54:05] allegedly, allegedly

[00:54:07] say it with me

[00:54:09] anything said here on this podcast about

[00:54:11] alleged cults, alleged MLM schemes

[00:54:13] alleged douchebaggery

[00:54:15] mindfuckery, criminality

[00:54:17] spiritual fraud or the like

[00:54:19] is offered purely as commentary

[00:54:21] because the views and opinions

[00:54:23] expressed on a little bit culty

[00:54:25] do not necessarily reflect

[00:54:27] on official policy or position

[00:54:29] of the podcast

[00:54:31] and any content provided by our guests

[00:54:33] bloggers, sponsors

[00:54:35] or authors are their opinion

[00:54:37] and are not intended to malign

[00:54:39] any religion, group, club

[00:54:41] organization, business individual

[00:54:43] anyone or anything

[00:54:45] so just let these words drift

[00:54:47] into your mind without needing to

[00:54:49] focus on any of them

[00:54:51] you are great

[00:54:53] you are capable

[00:54:55] you deserve to be happy

[00:54:57] nobody's mad at you

[00:54:59] unless you're actually a narcissistic

[00:55:01] culty criminal

[00:55:03] if that's you cut that shit out

[00:55:05] don't be a fuckwad

[00:55:07] but if that's not you

[00:55:09] you deserve to be happy

[00:55:11] a little bit culty loves you

[00:55:13] well that was fascinating

[00:55:17] we actually have

[00:55:19] a great niten yanda word salad

[00:55:21] but we're gonna save it for the end

[00:55:23] of episode 2

[00:55:25] hold on, it's gonna be good, it'll be worth it

[00:55:27] see you then

[00:55:41] let's keep the conversation going

[00:55:43] we'll be back soon with more episodes

[00:55:45] of a little bit culty

[00:55:47] with more experts and survivors

[00:55:49] and sometimes experts who are survivors

[00:55:51] as well as some familiar faces from the vow

[00:55:53] from HBO

[00:55:55] if you've got suggestions or questions

[00:55:57] on upcoming topics, find us on

[00:55:59] Instagram at a little bit culty

[00:56:01] and for more background on what brought me here

[00:56:03] my memoir, Scarred

[00:56:05] The True Story of How I Escaped

[00:56:07] Nexium, the Cult that Bound My Life

[00:56:09] is available on Amazon, Audible

[00:56:11] and where most books are sold

[00:56:13] if you'd like to help us spread the word about a little bit culty podcasts

[00:56:16] please give us a 5 star review

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[00:56:27] and if you're listening on a smartphone

[00:56:29] tap or swipe over the cover art of this podcast

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[00:56:40] just don't be a little bit culty about it

[00:56:42] A Little Bit Culty is executive produced by me

[00:56:44] your co-host Sarah Edmanson

[00:56:46] and Anthony Nippy Ames

[00:56:48] that's me

[00:56:49] Associate producer is Jess Tardy

[00:56:51] produced, edited, mixed and mastered

[00:56:53] by Citizens of Sound

[00:56:55] our amazing theme song

[00:56:57] Cultivated is by John Bryant

[00:56:59] and co-written by Nigel Asselin

[00:57:01] I'm Sarah Edmanson and thanks for listening to

[00:57:03] A Little Bit Culty