Scientology SUCKS | Ft. Leah Remini, Mike Rinder, and Jon Atack

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access. To powder skiing legacy. To independent spirit. North where easy to get to. Meets worlds away. Go north to snow basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:26] The views and opinions expressed by a little bit cultier, those are the hosts. And don't reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:34] Any of the quote fire content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors, or authors of the opinion and are not intended to malign a religion, a group, a club, an organization, business individual, anyone or anything, unless Sarah... You're a douchebag.

[00:00:48] Yeah. We're not doctor, psychologist, therapist, license counselors, or shamans. Even though you kind of think you are sometimes. I'm like an urban shaman. Okay. Good talk. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here.

[00:01:08] And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.

[00:01:20] We've been there and back again. A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult. And then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge. The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow now in its second season.

[00:01:33] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:40] Look at us. A couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait. This does not count toward date night, babe. We got to schedule that. That's separate.

[00:01:53] So it's two days? We got to hang out? We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium. Still on that journey. And we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:05] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level marketing.

[00:02:16] This stuff really is everywhere. The Cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com

[00:02:32] What up, ALBC listeners? Back with another smash hit remix. Can you believe that people go on hiatus for their shows? By people that you met at other podcast shows? Who are these people? Clearly not professionals. I mean...

[00:03:02] I mean, we did take a break but the podcast kept going. Define break here, right? Did we not provide content weekly? We always provide content. Did we not provide Patreon content weekly? Always. I mean, so where's the break exactly?

[00:03:16] Well, we did take a little break with the live zooms with our guests this summer because we were on the go. But we're going to pick that up over on Patreon, wrapping up and circling back with all of our amazing guests from season five,

[00:03:29] which happened to be, I want to say like 40 or 50 episodes. Pretty much. We're going to come in strong with season six. No days off, Sarah. No days off. That's what Bill Belichick said after Patriots won the Super Bowl. Really? Yeah.

[00:03:42] We're going right back to work. No days off. No days off. Okay. No days off but we did take a little hiatus and in that hiatus we... Hiatus. We created something special for you.

[00:03:53] We are currently working on a fresh batch of cult busting brand new episodes with some stellar guests. But we wanted to continue to stir that proverbial pot a little more by revisiting some of our favorite culty topics.

[00:04:06] This one's very relevant because power force, Lea Remini is at it again. Thank you for creating and deciding to stand up against these bullies. I'm going to pump her tires a minute. Pump her tires.

[00:04:19] This is a woman that put all her money into the lawsuits to investigate, I think, what was going on at the police station. She put up like $50,000 of that and now she's filing another lawsuit. And it's all...

[00:04:30] I mean, talk about someone who's like, okay, I bet on the wrong horse. That horse is now abusing people and she's putting her time, energy and money behind correcting it. Everyone take a look at this woman.

[00:04:41] And people keep coming to us asking us to do more Scientology episodes. So we decided to put this mash-up together with some of our best content around this alleged cult Scientology, AKA the brainchild L. Ron Hubbard. Ugh, my ass is chapped already.

[00:04:58] You know it, you load it, you're right there with me. Maybe you just mock it from afar. But to be fair, unless you're a Scientologist, they think you're pretty silly too. So put that in your pipe. It's all even, Stevens. You don't have to smoke it though.

[00:05:12] Don't smoke it. We are diving deep into the danger zone in this episode featuring three top guns who have taken on the impossible mission of exposing Scientology, which we all know could be risky business. Let's see what you're doing there. I see what's going on here.

[00:05:25] Okay, enough Tom Cruise puns. Let's introduce a few good men and a super badass woman who you'll hear from on today's show. First up is the patron saint of cult busting, Leah Remini, who's tired as I have pumped previously

[00:05:38] and whose book Troublemaker chronicles her remarkable journey toward emotional and spiritual freedom from Scientology, both for herself and for her family. Remember, they stalk you. Next is Mike Rinder. Having spent his youth doing things like, for example, swabbing the decks of Elrond Hubbard's yacht.

[00:05:54] Rinder eventually made it to the elite sector Scientology known as the Sea Org, eventually becoming Scientology's international spokesperson and the head of its office of special affairs, Big Red Flag. Then he escaped and became a fearless and outspoken ex-member.

[00:06:08] He's also a friend and somebody we admire more than words can express. And again, this is someone that was on the front lines, kind of the Marine Corps of the Scientology, flipped the script and he's doing the work to correct it.

[00:06:22] So another guy who tires, I like the pump as well. And our final one is John A. Tech. This is one of my kind of stealthy like sleeper episodes. It was in our early days and I loved our conversation with him.

[00:06:35] He's one of the only court appointed expert witnesses on Scientology. In his book, Let's Sell These People, A Piece of Blue Sky, about the early history of the church decided by academics all over the world.

[00:06:46] John was a public Scientologist for nine years, trained as a counselor and even did the secret OT levels, but ditched it when he discovered appalling aggressive behaviors towards members. In addition to his work podcasting as a Scientology myth buster

[00:07:00] and using his Instagram account to help educate people on overcoming things like manipulation, destructive cults and abusive relationships, he's written several novels including Voodoo Child, Slight Return, inspired by the life and downfall of Jimi Hendrix.

[00:07:13] So without further ado, please enjoy this Scientology Sucks Sorry Not Sorry, a little bit Calty Medley. If you don't, there's going to be days of thunder, heady. Oh. Like that? Yep. Like you said, the church determined your morality and they're making you numb to certain things.

[00:07:38] That started at what age for you? Well, my mother got in when I was, I think nine or 10 and the communication courses started then. We weren't going into Scientology at this point because we lived in, you know, a different city.

[00:07:53] We can travel to where the Scientology was, but when we got older, she started forcing us to get on a train to go there. But I remember my mother getting into Scientology. I think I was about eight or nine. Do you remember a self before that?

[00:08:08] Before you started taking like how you thought and felt about things at an early age and then how that may have been compromised? I was young and I just remember like growing up like a typical child, but feeling disenfranchised because, you know, my dad was there,

[00:08:23] but I don't remember him being there. He was, you know, Catholic. My mother was Jewish, but my mother wasn't really raised in any religion because her parents died when she was very young. But my grandmother was very Catholic and I remember going to church with my grandma

[00:08:38] and feeling safe. You know, she used to do the cross on my head at night and she made me feel like a child being protected. And I remember the difference between my grandmother who treated me

[00:08:52] and my sister like children and my mother who was talking to me like I was an adult. And I saw a change where my mother was like, you know, she gave us these little booklets and it had like basic morals like don't steal and don't do it.

[00:09:07] And I was like, well, yeah, I mean that's yeah. But, you know, like that's what I was doing. I was stealing, you know what I mean? I was like, that's what we do here. Like we steal leg warmers and we steal smurfs. Like that's what we do.

[00:09:19] We go to the stationary store and we steal things. Like, but, you know, then she started telling me like, I want you to tell me when you do bad things. And I kind of like that because my friends were rebelling against their parents and doing things.

[00:09:32] And I was like the good bad girl. Like I would stick up for people, but I wasn't really like the cutter of classes. You know what I mean? I really wouldn't like do that. But you know, the smoking and the smoking pot,

[00:09:45] I was like, no, you know, I can't if I smoke pot, my mother's going to be very mad at me. I did see a difference, which was weird because my mother was like not hitting us. Whereas my other, my friends' parents were hitting them growing up

[00:09:59] and my mother was becoming this more communicator which wasn't usual for our neighborhood. We have to be super careful when people do this with us too. We're not good out of it. And you know, and trying to find the silver linings,

[00:10:12] which for us is a really big fine line. I'm sure it is for you too. Like of course, and we talked about this when I did your podcast, like I've had to go like, okay, what was good from it so that I don't waste 12 years?

[00:10:23] But I have to make sure that those good things were not from Keith. I have to find their original source. So there was something good for you that your mom didn't hit you. That's not from Scientology. And that's what I've been doing too.

[00:10:34] And what's funny is, you know, the good parents who weren't raised in Scientology or cults or coming from abuse themselves, you know, I'm reading parenting books now, you know, and I'm sending it to my mother, you know, my mother's like, what the fuck you sending me?

[00:10:48] I'm too old. You're great. You're grown. I don't need to be a better parent to you. And you know, it's interesting because I'm like, I just never, I couldn't even imagine like I never saw this parents, you know, in myself or in my mother.

[00:11:01] And I was like, this is the way you're supposed to parents. I had no idea what's, what's that like for you now? Like as a, it's hard. It's hard because, you know, I go, God, I hope I didn't fuck her up too bad so far.

[00:11:14] You know, I hope I could, you know, reverse some of the damage. What does she think of what you're doing now? Like, does she, is she aware? Is she proud of you? What's the dynamic? Yeah. I think my daughter thinks that I'm, I'm tough.

[00:11:28] I think she's proud of me. I think when I first left, she heard me on the phone and she was, you know, 10. She heard me screaming and crying on the phone with somebody and she came into the room and she said, mom, you've left a, she said psychology

[00:11:44] because she didn't know the word Scientology. She goes, you left Scientology here and she had her finger on my forehead and then she said, but you have to leave it here and then touch my heart. Wow. I know. I'm going to cry. Wow. That's exactly what happened, Sarah.

[00:11:58] I started crying. Oh, my God. And she's right. But what we're talking about earlier, what I was talking about Scientology being your primary caretaker, you know, I left my parents, they raised me. Scientology raised me. It's always shocking to my, to my friends when I say I'm heartbroken

[00:12:15] over what they're doing. I'm heartbroken over what they're saying. I'm heartbroken by what they're doing to people who they know we're telling the truth and the response is usually, why are you shocked, Leah? Why would you be shocked? Why would you be heartbroken?

[00:12:27] I don't want to, because it's still somebody that raised me. It's still hard to see when they know they're doing the wrong thing. It's still close to my heart. It's a weird, it's, it's, it's weird. It's still something that I, I struggle with.

[00:12:42] It's like an apparent abusing you. You still love that parents, even though, you know, they're awful and doing bad things. I totally feel that. I feel that pain, like watching you in some of your interviews, like I cry deeply with you

[00:12:56] and I don't know if you haven't been through something like this. If people get that, you know, in the same way, but I definitely feel like, oh, I don't know. I mean, I'm curious. Do you ever bump into anybody and have like awkward moments?

[00:13:09] Yeah. And I use this, this analogy because I don't know, are you familiar with the pimp world? Sort of. Yeah. You know, like if you belong, I'm well versed, I'm well versed in the pimp world. But if you belong to another pimp

[00:13:20] and you know, pimp is driving by, you have to turn your back to that pimp and feel like you're with somebody else. Right. On a funny level, that's what happens. Like if I see them as like friends of mine that were the former godparents to my daughter

[00:13:35] or I was the former godparent to their child and friends of mine for 35 years literally turned their back to me and it's heartbreaking. That's the funny part, you know, that pimp references just to be funny but it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to see

[00:13:52] my goddaughter who lives in my neighborhood because I'm the one who suggested that she live in my neighborhood so that I could take her when her mother had to work and to be in a certain school district I wanted my goddaughter to be in a good school district

[00:14:05] and to see her, you know, growing up and I can't run to her, you know, when I'm getting coffee in the morning at my local coffee shop or I'm driving by and I see them walking, you know, going on a highway like it kills me.

[00:14:18] It's, they literally feel they can't talk to me. I consider my friends family and people who know me know that like I don't... You're loyal. You know, I have these big ideas, movie ideas, you know, movie moments that they would leave Scientology

[00:14:33] and I would be vindicated, you know and in the movie I'm like, yeah, so how does it feel now? But I know that's not me. I know I would crumble and accept them and do anything for them if they left.

[00:14:45] You know, I wish I was the person who said, fuck you bitch. No, you'd welcome them back with open arms. Yeah man, yeah, yeah, you know. I feel the same way of every single person that's still in. It's just not in my nature to turn you away

[00:14:59] and again somebody that I considered family, you know, these are people that I considered family. So, you know, it's hard, you know, I look through all my pictures a lot because I'm in constant need to organize pictures from my daughter who could give a shit but whatever.

[00:15:14] I told you we're the same person. I showed her the other day. I have every dress. I have every dress of this kids, you know, first five birthdays and like, you know, NASA like fucking sealed dresses from every birthday. You know, I print photos out

[00:15:28] and I label, you know, first birthday, second birthday, third birthday. You know, first time you ate, first time you said something cute. First, like everything's organized. So I'm looking through all these photos and I'm like all of my memories are wrapped up in Scientology. That's hard. And Scientologists.

[00:15:47] It's really hard. Yeah, you got married when you guys were in, right? You had your babies when you... it's just so many memories are wrapped up in such an awful time of your life. Is there anything that you would look back on and like, mis-elements?

[00:16:02] Is it just friendship? Is there anything else that feels like you wish you could just extract that or...? No, it's, you know, we felt that we were part of something bigger than ourselves, right? We thought we were not just actors anymore. Look at us. We're saving mankind.

[00:16:17] We have purpose. We have a mission. The sense of community. Now we have to not look at this time and our energies as wasted, but finding the purpose in the pain. We tell our stories. We change the world. A little bit culty is proud to support

[00:17:03] the hashtag I Got Out Project, which empowers survivors of cultic abuse to share their stories online as a catalyst for education, prevention and healing. Learn more about the hashtag I Got Out movement and find resources at IGotOut.org. The Frankies were a picture-perfect influencer family,

[00:17:26] but everything wasn't as it seemed. I just had a 12-year-old boy still appeared asking for help. He's emaciated. He's got tape around his legs. Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives.

[00:17:48] Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. Meals bring people together, but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge. You can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry Food Drive. All proceeds go toward local food banks and families. Now through January 31st,

[00:18:08] you can purchase an icon in-store or online or watch out for the blue Feeding the Hungry Shelf Tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries. Together, we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's. What gets pounded into you

[00:18:26] in organizations like Scientology or Nexium or the Jehovah's Witnesses or whatever is, if you are out of step with the rest of the gang, it's on you. There's something wrong with you. It's not something wrong with the organization or the teachings or the principles. It's you.

[00:18:49] And that is a very, very powerful control mechanism over people. Extraordinarily powerful and, you know, the big realization that people have when they leave and they start talking to others who have been through similar experiences is, yeah, actually it wasn't just me. Yeah, there is actually something wrong.

[00:19:11] Yes, you know, it's not what did I do to pull it in. It's what the fuck are they doing to cause people this harm. And I think that's the other thing that the Aftermath Foundation provides is linking up to people who have similar experiences

[00:19:29] to be able to start peeling away the onion of nutty think that you get ingrained with. And, you know, we even help people if need be to go to a therapist who has experience in dealing with cults because that's another thing that we have found is general therapy

[00:19:51] doesn't hack it. No, they don't know what they're looking at. Exactly. And they also tend to ask questions that can be triggering if they don't have the cult training. Exactly. So anyway, I hope that answers your question. It does. And it's something we really want to do too.

[00:20:07] I don't know if it's a thing we can join you with or just learn from or something, but we can save that for another day to talk about. But I really like I feel the need for it. Not just for Nexium, but just so many people

[00:20:17] reaching out to us from so many different places that I'm like, I don't know where to send you and we have some resources, but like I want to help, you know, like you, I want to help and I don't

[00:20:27] feel like I can, other than sending them a list of resources I feel kind of tied. Well, also we're raising two kids. Nippy, I totally understand it. I wanted to say to Sarah, Sarah, look, I understand that dilemma. I understand a lot of people reaching out to you.

[00:20:43] Please, please, you are doing an enormous amount already. Don't be burdened by the fact that you don't have the ability to devote your attention to every single person who reaches out. Look, I went through this for a long time and I finally reached the conclusion

[00:21:01] there is only so much that I can do. I can't answer everybody who sends me an email or a DM on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter and fully satisfy everything that they need. You, this podcast, this podcast is an enormous resource for people

[00:21:21] and your book is an enormous resource for people and my book is a resource and the Aftermath Show is a resource and we've got to devote our time and effort in my view to doing things that are able to have an impact on more

[00:21:39] than one person because if we focus on every individual we never get anywhere and you feel bad. You just don't feel bad about it. Please, don't. The philosophy I've tried to adopt is just dominate what's in front of you.

[00:21:53] If you can take care of what's in front of you it expands your sphere a little bit but I also can't help but think of that scene in Schindler's List with Liam Neeson at the end. It's one of my favorite scenes in any movie where

[00:22:05] he starts to recognize he had a gold pin on his uniform that could have saved 20 lives and like so there's that impulse, Sarah tell me if you can't relate when someone reaches out like while you have your kid, your torn was like

[00:22:17] okay I got my kid and I got one person. That's a good way to look at it is you have to build down on what's reaching more people I think. You were talking during the resources and helping people about people that leave Scientology and it got me thinking

[00:22:29] like after reading your book and everything that's going on in the media right now like when does Scientology get more sensitive to its attrition? They must know that people are leaving, they must know that the public perception of them isn't favorable. There's always a point where something crashes

[00:22:45] where they can't sustain kicking people out because they need members or that like where is it in that process and what do you see them doing to combat it and it's just bizarre to me how it keeps losing people but not thriving. Right, well let me answer

[00:22:59] as best I can Nippy. They are already extremely sensitive to the loss of public relations stature and the loss of membership and new people coming in. Unfortunately a part of the problem is that even though they are undergoing pretty serious attrition the information age and the internet

[00:23:23] in particular is information is poison to cults. It is what ultimately kills them and you know these days you go Google Scientology or Google Nexium the same thing it's just a world of shit. There's nothing good there. It's not doing well. Everybody knows it but Scientology

[00:23:43] sort of like those people that are left in Nexium. When the world starts caving in to a hardcore cultist that means we have to redouble our efforts. We become more hardcore because this is proof in our eyes that the world needs saving even more because

[00:24:07] look at all the bad stuff that's out there trying to stop us from saving everybody all the ignorant unwashed fools out there that don't know about Scientology or who are against Scientology. They all need to be saved and they are currently winning so we need to

[00:24:25] fight harder, we need to give more money we need to be more dedicated. I mean it's like the Jehovah's Witnesses and you know the end of the world is going to be on October 4th 1973 and October 5th they're all running around going see

[00:24:39] we were just tested by God we've got to redouble our efforts to save everybody because 1997 is coming and that's the next date and then when that goes by the inner core the hardcore fundamentalists get more convinced that they no matter what happens no matter how bad it is

[00:24:59] there is attrition like every incident there is some attrition but it also kind of hardens the inner core and in my view Scientology will finally be undone is the undoing of the tax exempt status and not because of the money but because of the transparency

[00:25:21] that it brings it will force or it would force Scientology to have to provide reports about how much money they get and what do they spend it on and if the world knew how much money Scientology gets and what they spend it on including

[00:25:39] rafts of lawyers and private investigators and harassing websites etc etc they would be outraged but Scientologists would also be outraged because they are told give us $100,000 or a million dollars or $50 or whatever it is and we are going to provide housing for the underprivileged in dark Africa

[00:26:05] nation in Africa and we are going to open schools and provide educational materials and they would find out that that is bullshit the things that are done are just PR opportunities with a video crew their staging shit to show them and pretending that they are spending

[00:26:23] their money on it and they are not and that to me would be what will undo Scientology entirely So what needs to happen for that to happen what is the next step? Well the IRS needs to review their tax exempt status and hopefully find that

[00:26:41] they are in violation of public policy it shouldn't be hard because I mean there is, I have talked about this a lot and there is stuff on my blog about it you know public policy is an issue that needs some clarification in the world of tax exemption

[00:26:57] but nevertheless the way that will happen is there is pressure put on the IRS and that pressure is either going to come from Congress or from big media and by that I mean like Wall Street Journal, New York Times demanding that something be done about this

[00:27:15] or people on the House Ways and Means Committee or some other senior sort of political people start demanding that the IRS take a look at this and review the exempt status of Scientology. When that happens it will be easy for the IRS but the momentum of getting

[00:27:35] that sort of you know iceberg shifted in different direction is hard to accomplish But it just seems like they are so on everyone's ass like wouldn't that be such an obvious win for them to like release all this money? I don't know Well here is the issue Sarah

[00:27:51] there is a lot of law that has been created in the last 100 or 200 years surrounding the constitutional rights of religious organizations under the First Amendment and unfortunately in the United States the legal system is weighted with a a bag of gold on one of the scales

[00:28:11] and he who has the most money has the scales tipped most in his favor and almost all law that has been created with respect to the rights of religious organizations protect the rights of the organization and not the rights of the individual because typically it's individuals

[00:28:29] that sue the organization for the harm that has been caused to them. Typically the organizations bring in hundreds of lawyers and the little guy is left sort of holding the bag and that has created a body of law which is presidential and which is very hard to overcome

[00:28:49] and you know I've said many times that Keith Reneary's biggest mistake was not turning himself into a religious organization and he very well could have I mean he stole enough from Scientology he could have just walked in and said hey you gave Scientology exam status we're no different

[00:29:07] we got all our shit just like they have so that is a big part of the problem and really make you tighten up you know and remember a little bit culty loves you also come hang out with us on Patreon after you finish this episode

[00:29:34] it's fun over there fun is good and now here's a brief message from our sponsors this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting 8 hours of sleep

[00:30:09] I mean that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm in the city and I'm in the city and I'm in the city and I'm in the city and I'm in the city

[00:30:25] and I'm a non-negotiable like I'm in Vancouver right now and I am spending as much time as I can outside in nature hashtag cold pools nature is a none negotiables not enough time in the fresh air and axes and the trees feel not great not me not grounded

[00:30:44] therapy day is so much better I know I don't think I'm around and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need.

[00:30:55] Like, I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people. You know what I mean? Thanks, Therapy! Thanks for helping me see that. And if you're thinking of starting Therapy, give Better Help or Try.

[00:31:05] It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge.

[00:31:15] Look, even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non-negotiables like Therapy are more important than ever. Never skip Therapy Day with Better Help.

[00:31:26] Visit betterhelp.com slash culti today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culti. It's one of the things we really want to grill you about today and I know you talk

[00:31:38] a lot about this and you have so many papers you've written and interviews you've already done. We're really trying to take your wealth of knowledge and figure out what can we distill and share with our audience. Most of whom are recovering members of different groups.

[00:31:53] Most of them, you think? Well, just at least the people that we engage with on social media. There's a lot of people who are just fascinated by this topic, cults and abusive stuff in general and people who want to understand it so it doesn't happen to them.

[00:32:06] And there's also the component of all these things that go on are proprietary to cults and all that stuff. So the behaviors and abuses, I mean we say this almost every episode, aren't proprietary to cults and we want to draw the parallels between, I mean look out into

[00:32:21] the world. Yes. I was talking with Sarah last night. It's like I'd love to hear John just go off and through history, current and maybe future of all these people that have these human predatory traits and draw the

[00:32:33] parallels so that people can kind of get out of this bubble of thinking that they're alone in this cult con or whatever and recognize that we're all susceptible and vulnerable to it. Right? And the vast majority is that the vast majority of humanity are caught up in cultic

[00:32:48] behaviors. It's the other way around. Perhaps one person in 10 isn't. My wife, Singer wrote Colts in our Mids. She said to me, it's called Colts in our Mids because the society we live in is a group of interlocking cults. I take that point of view too. Yes.

[00:33:05] And I know that's what opening our minds really looks at is looking at all the overlap between authoritarian cults, MLMs, groomers, terrorists, radicalizers, pimps, abusers. It's everywhere. But before we get into that, and you've such a wealth of information and I really

[00:33:19] want to get into it all, but I also want to introduce our audience to you if they're not familiar with your work. And those who have been in this space, in this field for a while will already know you because of your prolific body of work.

[00:33:33] It's hard to ignore me. It's hard to ignore you. But for those who are new to the scene and who are just learning about this whole world like after the vow or after next scene was exposed, can you give our listeners like the short version?

[00:33:45] Because as you know, we ask all of our survivors of different groups. How did you get in? What was the hook? How did you get out and how are you healing with yours with Scientology from the interviews I've seen you do?

[00:33:55] You weren't one of the people who got abused and went and saw a bunch of the bad shit you left for different reasons. But could you give our listeners just the cliff notes of what you were looking for when you joined as a teenager to Scientology?

[00:34:08] I was looking for emotional equilibrium. It's that simple. I'd come home, I'd been off in Toulouse in France for six weeks, or I was meant to have some gigs. I was a professional drummer and I'd arrived there and found I'd been conned and got stranded.

[00:34:22] When I got home, the girl I'd been living with for 15 months had disappeared. You know, it took me four days to find her. And ultimately I found that she'd been shacking up with a friend of ours and she was on her way off to New Zealand.

[00:34:34] And I got a little bit upset. Right, Felizel. Fair enough. Fair enough. I talked to, you know, I knew I had a friend who was a psychiatrist who basically said, I can't talk to you. You're over 18, which wasn't very helpful.

[00:34:47] I went to my doctor who said, I don't know anything about this. And I talked to an Anglican priest and one day I went to a friend's house and there's this book called Science of Survival by Hubbard,

[00:34:58] which was actually written by Richard DeMille, the adopted son of Cecil B. DeMille, but put out under Hubbard's name. And that's why it's so much better written than any of the other stuff in Scientology. And it was a really persuasive argument about therapy.

[00:35:10] You know, it didn't get into all of the past lives and the little stuck spirits all over you and all of this supernatural part. I was desperate. So I actually asked around and nobody seemed to have heard about the scathing

[00:35:22] government report on Scientology that only been published three years before. Nobody seemed to know anything. So I went in and there were these lovely people there. We're all university graduates in creative things and they were really friendly and they really believed in it.

[00:35:36] They weren't trying to scam anybody. And so I just became immersed in it and I was just really lucky that I never became a living member. I stayed out in the outside world so I could switch languages and talk

[00:35:48] to Scientologists in their bizarre and elaborate load of language. I mean, there are two 600 page dictionaries of Hubbard's of Hubbard speak where he redefines words and makes words up all of this stuff. And I had nine years where I did 25 of the then 27 available levels

[00:36:04] of the Scientology Bridge. So I was clear and I was an operating Thayton level five. And you've got the other side of this and you don't tell anybody that it doesn't actually work. You don't have any supernatural powers. It's like the Wizard of Oz basically.

[00:36:20] And you can't say anything about that. So you have to keep pretending. You know, this guy David Miss Gabbage came along and various other bully boys. I was ordered to stop talking to one of my friends. You know, who worked very closely with Hubbard.

[00:36:32] I think I can say this now. The friend was Ira Chaila, who's quite rightly famous for his work on courageous followership and intelligent disobedience. Brilliant man. And I was told I couldn't talk to him. And I said, you know, I talked to whoever I want to.

[00:36:45] And I spent six months trying to get them to admit they'd made a mistake throwing Ira out and calling him a suppressive person, a term that traveled into Nexium, of course. Then I just went, I'm leaving.

[00:36:57] And I found myself at the middle of this swirling, you know, about half the members left between H2 and 84. And I was at the center in the UK about three months in, I got all this material about Hubbard and went, who's a liar? He was a cheat.

[00:37:10] He says honesty is sanity. He says the road to truth must be trod with true steps. And yet he contradicts himself. So from there, I became a hub for people who are leaving. I helped independent Scientologists, even though I didn't believe.

[00:37:24] And you know, Russell Miller came along to me who was the Sunday time with the Sunday Times in London. And signed me up to be the researcher for his great biography of Hubbard, Barefaced Messiah. What a wonderful title that is.

[00:37:37] And he's an esteemed biographer Arthur Conan Doyle, Getty Hefner. He's wrote lots of biographers. And he took the manuscript that I couldn't get published, which would later become Let's Sell These People A Piece Of Blue Sky and took the bits he wanted.

[00:37:52] And we spent a year and a half interviewing more people, finding out more things. And he published his book. Then I got a deal from my book, which sadly initially didn't sell very well because his book had come out first.

[00:38:04] But it did become a bestseller in the end on Amazon. Sadly, the publisher then went bankrupt and didn't pay the royalties. Oh no. Such a great title. Let's Sell These People A Piece Of Blue Sky. Direct quotation from Ron Hubbard when he opened his first

[00:38:17] foundation in April 1950, he turned to the guy next to him, who I interviewed extensively. And he said, let's sell these people a piece of blue sky, meaning let's sell them bullshit memberships like the Sashes and Nexium. Let's make them feel they have an elevated status.

[00:38:33] And I spent a dozen years doing that. They harassed me to death through that dozen years. And then for four years beyond, I was sued in the US. I was sued here. Think about 10 court cases and all. I made precedents all over the world.

[00:38:47] For example, Let's Sell These People A Piece Of Blue Sky. Only two books that have been stopped from publication in the whole history of the United States. The other one was Victor Marchetti's book about the CIA. So Scientology managed to convince a judge to stop publication,

[00:39:02] presumably because of national security interests at heart here. And we got that overturned. And I had the same lawyer as Marchetti, Mel Wolfe, which was bizarre coincidence almost. And he was brilliant. He did a great job. This podcast is brought to you by Citizens Of Sound,

[00:39:20] a podcast production agency committed to developing and launching shows with gravity and depth. From conception to launch, citizens will partner with you every step of the way, whether you're an actor, business owner, doctor, fitness coach, hairstylist or influencer. Connection is the future of communication.

[00:39:36] Jump on board with Citizens Of Sound today and start your show. Go to citizensofsound.com and follow them on Instagram. And trust me, it'll be a really good decision for you. Hope you like this a little bit culty rewind episode, which has been ethically recalibrated and artfully

[00:39:53] remixed, especially for high temperatures and slow, lazy summer days. And if you still like Scientology, your eyes are wide shut. It's so good. See you next time. We'll be back soon with all new episodes. And in the meantime, you can always find us over on Patreon.

[00:40:10] That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty, dropping brand new episodes every week, special packages with signed books and A.L.B.C. merch and lip balm and stickers and treats from our sponsors and a little gift bag. If you join the inner circle, wink, wink.

[00:40:26] Yes, we're being kind of sardonic with that with all the names. Fanatic, loyalist, flying monkey, inner circle. Those are jokes just so you know, you're not really joining our inner circle. That would be culty. It would be, sir.

[00:40:37] You can also always leave us a voicemail at a littlebitculty.com to give us some feedback. We love feedback. Even shitty feedback. It fuels us or troll us on Instagram at a little bit culty. Don't kidding. Don't troll us. Just kidding. Don't encourage that behavior.

[00:40:51] Just kidding. Don't troll us because we're empaths. We take things personally. Until next time, don't swim in a full stomach. Don't forget to call your mom and don't join a cult. I like those. Bye. Bye. Magnolia. Hope you liked this episode.

[00:41:21] Let's keep the conversation going and come hang out with us on Patreon where we keep the tape rolling each week. Special episodes just for Patreon subscribers and where we get deep into the weeds of unpacking every episode of the vow.

[00:41:32] And if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet, sweet swag or official ALBC podcast merch or a list of our most recommended cult recovery resources, visit our website at a littlebitculty.com. And for more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page-turning memoir.

[00:41:47] It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life. It's available on Amazon, Audible, narrated by my wife, and at most oak stores. A Little Bit Culty is a talkhouse podcast and a Trace 120 production.

[00:42:01] We're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames with writing, research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy. We're edited, mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of Citizens of Sound. And our amazing theme song, Cultivated, is by John Bryant

[00:42:17] and co-written by Nigel Asselin. Thank you for listening.