[00:00.000 --> 00:04.080] This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be considered legal, medical,
[00:04.080 --> 00:08.260] or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official
[00:08.260 --> 00:12.240] policy or position of the podcast, and are not intended to malign any religion group,
[00:12.240 --> 00:15.120] club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.
[00:15.120 --> 00:28.400] I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Anthony “Nippy” Ames.
[00:28.400 --> 00:31.760] And this is A Little Bit Culty,
[00:31.760 --> 00:35.760] a podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.
[00:35.760 --> 00:40.240] Every week, we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real cult stories told
[00:40.240 --> 00:44.720] directly by the people who live through them. Because we want you to learn a few things we've
[00:44.720 --> 00:49.040] had to learn the hard way. Like, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something
[00:49.040 --> 00:53.840] culty, you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult.
[00:53.840 --> 00:58.960] Oops. You better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season 6 of A Little Bit Culty.
[01:14.720 --> 01:22.080] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Welcome back, A Little Bit Culty listeners. Please do
[01:22.080 --> 01:27.440] listen to this upcoming episode with care because it gets into the very dark topic of child sexual
[01:27.440 --> 01:31.920] abuse, but also know that it's got a whole lot of hope in it as well. We're sitting down with
[01:31.920 --> 01:36.160] Tom Crumman to learn more about his journey as a survivor of the horrors that have plagued the
[01:36.160 --> 01:41.520] Boy Scouts of America and his role now as an advocate and activist for safer communities and
[01:41.520 --> 01:46.160] kids. Tom was one of the brave whistleblowers who came forward to put a name and face to the
[01:46.160 --> 01:51.360] decades-long scandal within the Boy Scouts, a beloved American institution. And you can see
[01:51.360 --> 01:57.040] his story in the recent Netflix doc, Scouts Honor, The Secret Files of the Boy Scouts of America.
[01:57.040 --> 02:01.120] He's here to tell us more about his experience in the Scouts, about navigating the aftermath,
[02:01.120 --> 02:06.080] and his work today. These days, Tom serves as the executive director for the US-based
[02:06.080 --> 02:10.880] Keep Kids Safe movement and as chief of staff of the Global Brave movement,
[02:10.880 --> 02:15.360] both of which are on a mission to end sexual violence against children and adolescents.
[02:15.360 --> 02:19.280] This isn't an easy conversation to have, but with the pandemic of abuse going on,
[02:19.280 --> 02:22.240] it's very necessary. Here's our conversation with Tom Crumman.
[02:34.240 --> 02:38.240] Hey Tom, welcome to A Little Bit Culty. Good to be here. Excited to have a conversation.
[02:38.240 --> 02:38.960] Nice as well.
[02:38.960 --> 02:40.240] Welcome, welcome.
[02:40.240 --> 02:47.920] Truthfully, we postponed watching the Scouts Honor documentary till last night. Didn't want to mix that
[02:47.920 --> 02:52.960] in with our holiday season because it was a very well-made doc was also very upsetting.
[02:52.960 --> 02:56.880] To me, it was the most upsetting we've watched so far. We've watched a lot.
[02:56.880 --> 03:01.200] It's the type of thing that breaks your heart and hopefully it fills it back up with hope at
[03:01.200 --> 03:06.320] the end that it's only the start of the journey. So appreciate the fact that y'all took the time.
[03:06.320 --> 03:08.480] Of course, there's some heroes in that too.
[03:08.480 --> 03:13.520] You're one of them and working so hard as a civic entrepreneur and leader for two organizations on a
[03:13.520 --> 03:18.560] mission to end child sexual abuse and serving on the Scouts Youth Protection Committee.
[03:18.560 --> 03:20.560] Why did you get into this work? Can we start there?
[03:21.360 --> 03:26.800] Short answer is it didn't feel like an option. There's moments where you feel dragged into
[03:26.800 --> 03:32.720] something that's beyond whatever your plan would be. My original goal was to be a
[03:32.720 --> 03:38.800] doctor or just a general entrepreneur. As I was finding my way through the early stages of my
[03:38.800 --> 03:45.120] career, the Boy Scouts decide that they're going to file for bankruptcy. Suddenly, this memory,
[03:45.120 --> 03:50.400] this challenge, this assault I'd experienced during my time in the youth as a young Boy Scout,
[03:50.400 --> 03:55.680] that all gets pulled into the surface. I have no choice but to confront it head-on.
[03:56.160 --> 04:04.240] And that's how you spark a new advocate is show a case of injustice, show an area where
[04:04.240 --> 04:11.360] something is going awry, where an organization is trying to move beyond a systematic,
[04:11.360 --> 04:16.800] constant issue within its culture and realize, okay, someone's got to speak up.
[04:16.800 --> 04:21.040] There's a few people doing it, but nowhere near enough and let's find our way.
[04:21.040 --> 04:28.640] So I've spent the past few years since around February 18th of 2020 figuring out how I can jump
[04:28.640 --> 04:34.800] in, where are those opportunities to get involved, whether that's assisting with support for other
[04:34.800 --> 04:39.920] people involved in the bankruptcy, or even stepping into other roles that I have now,
[04:39.920 --> 04:44.720] helping with the Keep Kids Safe movement to do national advocacy in the U.S.,
[04:44.720 --> 04:48.880] or serving with the Brave movement doing similar work at the global level.
[04:48.960 --> 04:50.960] We're getting a chance. We're seeing the momentum build.
[04:50.960 --> 04:55.520] I don't know if you know the format of our podcast. We start with how did you get in,
[04:55.520 --> 05:00.240] how did you get out type thing, but you've told it pretty well on the documentary.
[05:00.240 --> 05:04.480] What's the best way for you to tell it and would you feel comfortable starting
[05:04.480 --> 05:07.120] taking us back there and maybe giving the abridged version?
[05:07.120 --> 05:12.160] What did you think you were signing up for? What was the goal of the Boy Scouts when
[05:12.160 --> 05:13.280] you joined? How old were you?
[05:13.280 --> 05:19.440] So I've been involved in the Boy Scouts since I was a Cub Scout in elementary school,
[05:19.440 --> 05:25.440] stepping in in first grade and going through five years of different Cub Scouts, the Pinewood
[05:25.440 --> 05:31.520] Derby's where you're carving out little pieces of wood to go racing or small scale camp outs,
[05:31.520 --> 05:38.320] working on civic activities and youth leadership. And then as you transition in sixth grade going
[05:38.320 --> 05:44.240] into middle school, that's when this small world that I've been in with the Cub Scouts
[05:44.240 --> 05:49.600] became a whole lot bigger. And I entered into what's more commonly known as the Boy Scouts.
[05:49.600 --> 05:54.960] It's something that I joined because my dad, he was an Eagle Scout. He absolutely loved
[05:54.960 --> 06:00.000] everything about scouting. Both of his brothers had been a part of it. He was a volunteer throughout
[06:00.000 --> 06:05.200] my entire journey and brought me in. It's one of the biggest things that had bonded us.
[06:05.200 --> 06:12.080] And I could see scouting through his eyes. And for the most part, the image is really good.
[06:12.080 --> 06:17.760] If you hear the pitch for what the Boy Scouts of America is, sure, for sure. It has that weight.
[06:17.760 --> 06:23.680] There's a reason why it became the largest youth serving organization in the country.
[06:23.680 --> 06:29.680] There's a reason why it was founded by Congress under the title 36 and chartered officially by
[06:29.680 --> 06:38.560] Congress. It was this idea of how do we build a new generation of youth leaders that are focused
[06:38.560 --> 06:45.360] on building a better version of this country. And it's been described by many as the cult of
[06:45.360 --> 06:52.240] Americana. It's this idea of invest in civic leadership, invest in the next generation,
[06:52.240 --> 06:58.800] find ways to get connected to nature with camp outs or different activities or skill sets,
[06:58.800 --> 07:05.760] learning everything from first aid and emergency response to how do you give back in your community.
[07:05.760 --> 07:11.920] And that's a really powerful idea. And that's what I joined. And for the most part, that was
[07:11.920 --> 07:17.600] the experience for most people that go through the Boy Scouts. And I'm sure this is a trend that
[07:17.600 --> 07:24.240] y'all see with a lot of different groups that have that layer of cultiness. The vast majority is
[07:24.240 --> 07:29.680] good, but there can be something that's really difficult and harmful simmering just below the
[07:29.680 --> 07:37.920] surface. And for the Scouts, it was this culture of sexual abuse, violence, exploitation of children
[07:37.920 --> 07:43.680] and adolescents to the point where this is now that the organization is now the largest child abuse
[07:43.680 --> 07:49.360] bankruptcy in US history. And we still don't talk about it. There's something there that needs to
[07:49.360 --> 07:53.440] break through the surface and we need to have that conversation. Absolutely. I mean, I can't even
[07:53.440 --> 07:58.720] remember when I was a kid, the lure of it. And if the Ames brothers weren't so involved in sports,
[07:58.720 --> 08:03.760] I'm positive we would have been Boy Scouts at some point, because we really bothered our mom
[08:03.760 --> 08:08.720] to try and do it. It was just a little inconvenient with four boys. So all that said,
[08:08.720 --> 08:14.480] when did your experience kind of take the turn and you share what you feel comfortable with
[08:14.480 --> 08:18.720] about what's going on? And was it hidden from your parents? And what was that like?
[08:18.720 --> 08:24.800] This is where we get to parse out the different types of sexual violence that can happen. So in
[08:24.800 --> 08:32.560] in my case, I was a young scout. This is early middle school years, so 11 or 12. And happened
[08:32.560 --> 08:38.960] to be at a beautiful camp up in upstate South Carolina. And it's just a normal day. It's a
[08:38.960 --> 08:43.200] parents night. It's Wednesday. So all of the parents have come in and they're all at this
[08:43.200 --> 08:49.040] mess hall with all the counselors and the volunteer leaders and the different scouts. It's
[08:49.040 --> 08:53.680] hundreds of people that are packed in having this great meal. I'm running a little bit late,
[08:53.680 --> 08:59.520] because I'm probably working on some volunteer project elsewhere. So parents night, I'm going
[08:59.520 --> 09:05.680] to wash up real quick and head on over. Usually that's something that shouldn't be allowed for a
[09:05.680 --> 09:11.680] scout to basically roam free around camp. But my dad was a scout master and one of the leaders
[09:11.680 --> 09:16.800] in the space. And of course, let him run around. That's okay. He's a good kid. The challenge is
[09:16.800 --> 09:22.480] that I wasn't the only one doing that. And a much older scout was there in the shower,
[09:22.480 --> 09:28.640] getting washed up. And he comes in and threatens me. And I try to run away. He pulls out a knife,
[09:28.640 --> 09:33.440] which is not shocking. It's Boy Scouts. Everybody's got a pocket knife. And it's one of those
[09:33.440 --> 09:39.840] moments where you realize, oh, I'm powerless. There is a big difference in what a young boy
[09:39.840 --> 09:45.520] and a much older boy can be. If you remember those years of being in middle school and looking
[09:45.520 --> 09:50.720] up at the high schoolers, I mean, they're full grown adults pretty much at that point.
[09:50.720 --> 09:56.400] And it was at that point that I was sexually assaulted and raped at knife point. And
[09:56.960 --> 10:03.840] I remember what's really tricky about that is I had repressed that memory, but I didn't
[10:03.920 --> 10:10.800] repress the memory right at that point of the assault. What happened was I experienced that.
[10:10.800 --> 10:16.880] My brain starts to dissociate and you focus in on whatever you can to ignore what's happening
[10:17.440 --> 10:23.040] to you. You're trying to distract yourself from the horror, from the trauma, remembering the
[10:23.040 --> 10:29.680] feel of the plastic sheets in this really dingy scout bathroom, or the feeling of
[10:29.680 --> 10:34.480] pretty cold water and the sound of it gurgling down the drain. Those things I can't get rid of.
[10:34.480 --> 10:39.760] And what happens is right afterwards, after I experienced this hell, after this assault
[10:39.760 --> 10:44.800] happens, after I'm told I'm nothing and I'm never going to be nothing, I try to wash it off.
[10:44.800 --> 10:51.680] You work through all the soap you can because you feel the shame and you feel tainted. And I
[10:51.680 --> 10:56.800] could already tell that there was this veil that was starting to come over me. It was this
[10:56.800 --> 11:02.480] weight. It was this sense of if I do not tell someone right now, I'm never going to do it.
[11:02.480 --> 11:08.480] And so I throw on my Class B uniform after I use every bit of soap in that shower, throw on
[11:08.480 --> 11:14.080] a little bit of scouting cargo shorts, basically, in a troop t-shirt. And I run on over to the
[11:14.080 --> 11:19.680] mess hall 200 yards away. This all happened in the shadow of hundreds of people. And I run on
[11:19.680 --> 11:25.600] over there and I burst in the door and the first person I see is my mom. And I am this
[11:25.600 --> 11:31.280] sobbing mess. And she looks at me and she sees the same thing that all of the other scouts are
[11:31.280 --> 11:37.840] seeing. A young scout crying on parents' night happens every week. And it was in that moment
[11:37.840 --> 11:42.960] where I'm looking at everyone, seeing the Snickers, seeing all the laughter of, oh,
[11:42.960 --> 11:48.480] look at him. He can't handle camp. That was the moment that I repressed it. It wasn't the assault.
[11:48.480 --> 11:54.000] It was the feeling that, because this happened to me, I'm no longer accepted. There's stigma.
[11:54.000 --> 11:59.200] There's shame. I'm no longer a part of this. So at that moment, I couldn't tell my mom.
[11:59.200 --> 12:04.400] I couldn't tell my dad. I couldn't tell anybody. And that moment I repressed it. It wasn't until
[12:04.400 --> 12:11.280] 2017 where I was doing a big road trip and happened to stop at the camp and see the actual
[12:11.280 --> 12:15.920] shower, the bathhouse facilities that it all came rushing back. You have that moment of saying,
[12:15.920 --> 12:21.680] oh, this can't be true, but you know it is. There's no denying it. It's just too painful
[12:21.760 --> 12:27.920] to bear. This question might feel a tad tangential, but I'm just curious. What gives the older boy the
[12:27.920 --> 12:34.000] confidence that you're not going to say anything to your dad who's a scout leader? What's the
[12:34.000 --> 12:40.240] ecosystem like where he felt confident to prey on you? Had he groomed you? It seems to me like
[12:40.240 --> 12:45.200] I wouldn't pick on the coach's kid if I was a predator or whatever. I just don't know what
[12:45.840 --> 12:49.680] the ecosystem might be like, where he felt comfortable doing that and comfortable that
[12:49.680 --> 12:55.040] you wouldn't go tell the parents 200 yards away. That gets to the heart of the issue here. We're
[12:55.040 --> 13:00.560] talking about an ecosystem and a culture. To Sarah's point as well, a culture that involves
[13:00.560 --> 13:07.680] a significant amount of grooming. Within the scouts, there has been this decades-long history
[13:08.240 --> 13:14.000] with evidence pointing back to the earliest years of scouting where sexual violence and abuse and
[13:14.000 --> 13:22.240] exploitation was happening. It was oftentimes a case of grooming where a troop leader, a volunteer,
[13:22.240 --> 13:27.680] an adult that's found their way into the scouting program would build that relationship
[13:27.680 --> 13:34.800] systematically with a young scout. Then either through trust or through communicating that they
[13:34.800 --> 13:40.400] hold the power and you can't speak out. Usually a combination of both. They then seize that
[13:40.400 --> 13:45.760] opportunity and that's when the abuse really starts to happen. One of the issues that started
[13:45.760 --> 13:52.480] to pop up and is actually a growing issue now is youth on youth violence. That's something that
[13:52.480 --> 13:58.480] kicks out from that culture of grooming and of trying to hide all of this in the shadows.
[13:58.480 --> 14:03.840] That youth on youth violence is most likely people that themselves had experienced abuse,
[14:03.840 --> 14:09.200] not a guarantee, but most likely, they lash out. They take their pain out on someone else.
[14:10.640 --> 14:16.240] Maybe they do it strategically. Maybe they say, oh, here's the person and this person won't speak.
[14:16.240 --> 14:20.720] I trust that the culture is strong enough. No one's going to speak out. I'll tell them that
[14:20.720 --> 14:25.760] you're gay and that's not acceptable in this culture. We know you're going to stay quiet.
[14:26.320 --> 14:32.240] Sometimes it's just anguish and pain and there's not rationality. It's just, I am this hurt. This
[14:32.240 --> 14:37.440] happened to me and I'm going to perpetuate the cycle. I need to inflict pain to feel something
[14:37.440 --> 14:44.160] that isn't hurting myself. It's hard to tell in this specific case. It wasn't a case of grooming.
[14:44.160 --> 14:51.120] It was truly just the wrong place at the wrong time. I chatted with this older scout from
[14:51.120 --> 14:57.280] another troop beforehand. I think he recognized me, saw that I was smaller and took advantage
[14:57.280 --> 15:02.160] of the moment. It also seems that he took advantage of the ecosystem of shame and the
[15:02.160 --> 15:07.440] culture that he knew that I'm giving you the proverbial scarlet letter in this group.
[15:07.440 --> 15:13.600] If you go over that boundary and say something, you're wearing that and that's harder than...
[15:13.600 --> 15:14.720] He's banking on the shame of that.
[15:14.720 --> 15:18.720] He probably did it before too, I'm guessing, and got away with that.
[15:18.720 --> 15:24.400] That's the challenge. Either he did it before or he did it after, but it's one of those lines
[15:24.400 --> 15:31.600] that once you cross it, the likelihood of it happening again is too high. That just gives you
[15:32.160 --> 15:36.480] all the fear for the current and future generations of scouts. Are they safe?
[15:36.480 --> 15:37.040] Absolutely.
[15:37.040 --> 15:39.760] Genuinely. Are they safe? I don't have a clear answer to that.
[15:39.760 --> 15:45.840] Well, the reason I ask that is because I think one of the ways for our audience to relate to that,
[15:45.840 --> 15:51.280] think about the hierarchy that exists in high school. Freshman to senior. I grew up in jock
[15:51.280 --> 15:56.160] culture. That didn't go on in the schools that I went on to, but there was no way I was going to
[15:56.160 --> 16:02.960] complain about an older person picking on me. That's just picking on me, hazing me. Boys will
[16:02.960 --> 16:07.200] be boys stuff. I wasn't going to complain about that because I didn't want to be labeled whatever
[16:07.200 --> 16:08.000] I was going to be labeled.
[16:08.000 --> 16:09.200] Snitches get stitches.
[16:09.200 --> 16:09.840] Snitches get stitches.
[16:09.840 --> 16:15.120] I didn't. I was compliant to that culture because that was the culture I had to go
[16:15.120 --> 16:22.560] to school on every day. I can only imagine that kind of onus times whatever to not go out and
[16:22.560 --> 16:22.640] say anything.
[16:22.640 --> 16:25.360] That's a huge red flag for either culture, I guess, right?
[16:25.360 --> 16:26.720] Unfortunately, it exists.
[16:27.280 --> 16:29.200] Do you mind if I take that one step further?
[16:30.640 --> 16:37.200] It's not simply a culture. It's also a system of those hierarchies. A big part of Scouts,
[16:37.200 --> 16:42.960] and this is for the most part, it's a good ideal, but the challenges in practice,
[16:42.960 --> 16:48.800] it raises this issue. There's youth leadership structures. There's senior patrol leaders and
[16:48.800 --> 16:55.280] as much as the volunteers are lending support and guidance, a lot of what's happening is
[16:55.280 --> 17:00.880] youth leadership. Imagine you've got the jock culture, the macho culture,
[17:00.880 --> 17:06.240] and you're adding in that extra layer of here's who you report to. They've got authority.
[17:06.240 --> 17:12.240] This is the older Scout. This is the hierarchy. That is a system that locks you in. If you're
[17:12.240 --> 17:17.680] a young Scout coming to a camp where you're out in the woods and you're surrounded by
[17:17.680 --> 17:23.680] hundreds of people, but you also feel that you're out there alone, that's a dangerous mix.
[17:23.680 --> 17:28.960] How do we explore ways to improve that and recognize just how many red flags exist in
[17:28.960 --> 17:30.000] that type of system?
[17:30.000 --> 17:33.680] That was something that popped out right away with watching the dock is that there is no place
[17:34.240 --> 17:39.760] to report without putting yourself at further risk. With the shame layered on that, of course,
[17:39.760 --> 17:43.440] you're not going to say anything. The other red flag that really stuck out for me was that a
[17:43.440 --> 17:48.160] lot of these people, the volunteers, and I don't know exactly all the different names, but can
[17:48.160 --> 17:54.880] enter the system without having a background check or even a government ID. As a parent,
[17:54.880 --> 18:00.480] now I know to ask that, who's running this thing and has their ID been checked? Do they have any
[18:00.480 --> 18:01.360] priors?
[18:01.360 --> 18:08.160] There's no system of reporting that comes close to what's necessary. Let's paint a
[18:08.160 --> 18:13.680] quick picture of how this is structured. The Boy Scouts is almost a franchise model.
[18:14.640 --> 18:20.880] You have 256 local councils across the country, somewhere in that range.
[18:21.760 --> 18:26.560] Then the National Boy Scouts, which they come up with a handbook, the guidelines,
[18:26.560 --> 18:31.680] here's our youth protection policies. They implement trainings and host conferences,
[18:31.680 --> 18:38.480] but it's these 256 local councils spread across the country and even around the world that
[18:38.640 --> 18:44.480] are coordinating most of this. What's really difficult is that for decades,
[18:44.480 --> 18:47.360] they wouldn't even communicate that information to each other.
[18:48.000 --> 18:56.800] There are so many examples of a perpetrator that people knew of that would go from one local
[18:56.800 --> 19:03.120] council and then move a state over or sometimes even within the same state to a different council
[19:03.760 --> 19:10.240] and just pick right back up, do the same thing over and over again without risk or fear or worry.
[19:10.960 --> 19:16.560] They had that confidence that the culture of Scouts is not going to check. They'd rather protect
[19:16.560 --> 19:22.960] the image of being this aspirational youth serving organization than actually do what's
[19:22.960 --> 19:28.240] important to keep kids safe and protect those youth. Then you end up with this type of issue.
[19:28.320 --> 19:31.600] I mean, 82,000 people joined this bankruptcy.
[19:31.600 --> 19:37.600] That is horrendous. We've seen that with all the big religions, Catholic Church, the Mormon Church,
[19:37.600 --> 19:41.520] the Jehovah's Witness. They all keep it internal because they're trying to protect their image.
[19:41.520 --> 19:46.080] Who's going to join a church, which is a safe haven for pedophiles? Who's going to send their
[19:46.080 --> 19:51.440] kids to a youth organization, which is a safe haven for pedophiles? Yet they could have
[19:51.440 --> 19:54.160] changed it had they not been so image focused.
[19:54.160 --> 19:58.320] There's a phrase that's used to this day called the scouting way.
[19:59.760 --> 20:07.680] Every time I hear that phrase, my skin starts to bristle. The hairs go on edge because it's a sign
[20:07.680 --> 20:13.040] of we are not going to focus on true protection of youth. We're going to move slow. We're going
[20:13.040 --> 20:20.400] to focus on our culture and our way of doing things because that's the best way to do it.
[20:20.400 --> 20:27.200] The only way to have that mindset right now is to ignore what's truly happened is to try and push
[20:27.200 --> 20:33.600] this whole bankruptcy process, this whole history and scandal behind us, and just take that next
[20:33.600 --> 20:38.800] step and say, all right, we're all good. We've finished out here and the scouting way is
[20:38.800 --> 20:43.360] as clean as a whistle. We're ready to go. You have to lie to yourself to believe that
[20:43.360 --> 20:45.760] that's effective and keeps kids safe.
[20:45.760 --> 20:49.920] You mentioned earlier that you saw the camp and that brought things back, but you didn't
[20:49.920 --> 20:55.040] get involved and start to recognize and really reckon with what happened to you till you heard
[20:55.040 --> 20:56.800] about the bankruptcy case. Is that right?
[20:56.800 --> 21:02.160] That's exactly right. The bankruptcy has been one of the most underreported stories. It's
[21:02.160 --> 21:09.520] something that happened. It started on February 18th of 2020, right before COVID came in and
[21:09.520 --> 21:18.320] took all the air out of the media. Basically, what happened is the Boy Scouts saw a few
[21:18.960 --> 21:24.800] states change their statutes and limitations for people to report sexual violence that happened as
[21:24.800 --> 21:30.400] they were children. New York was the biggest and most notable example of that, and the Scouts got
[21:30.400 --> 21:36.960] worried. We've seen a few more of these cases come out. There are now pieces of our perversion
[21:36.960 --> 21:43.680] files, our registers of perpetrators and pedophiles that we ourselves have tracked. That is now
[21:43.680 --> 21:48.640] partly out and available for the public. We're afraid that these new laws are going to mean a
[21:48.640 --> 21:55.920] huge influx of lawsuits, so we're going to do what we can. Our Texas-based organization is going to
[21:55.920 --> 22:01.040] technically register ourselves in Delaware, and we're going to file for bankruptcy so that we
[22:01.040 --> 22:06.560] have future legal protection. We are no longer liable for what happened. It's a emerging
[22:06.560 --> 22:11.040] playbook that we're seeing with more and more organizations, including a lot of Catholic churches.
[22:12.000 --> 22:18.640] They expected a few thousand cases, maybe in the low tens of thousands. What they didn't expect was
[22:18.640 --> 22:25.440] 82,000 people to come forward and say, going back decades with what we're seeing as a peak
[22:25.440 --> 22:31.600] in around the 70s or 80s of people saying, this happened to me. Maybe it was something that
[22:31.600 --> 22:37.360] involved. There wasn't touching involved, but it was sharing of pornographic materials or the
[22:37.360 --> 22:43.360] initial grooming behaviors that we know are crossing a line and skew a young child's way
[22:43.360 --> 22:50.400] of growing, all the way up to full penetration, assault, and even rape, and everything in between.
[22:50.960 --> 22:57.680] We watched 82,000 people sign up for this. I want to be very clear about why that number is
[22:57.680 --> 23:04.640] important. That's 82,000 people that signed up in the year 2020 in a nine-month window
[23:04.640 --> 23:10.240] during the COVID pandemic. How many people never heard about this and how many people
[23:10.240 --> 23:18.880] are not even alive today because they either passed or the trauma of this and the pressures of
[23:18.880 --> 23:24.800] watching an organization cast you aside, maybe you took your own life. That's happened far more
[23:24.800 --> 23:31.760] times than we can count. Whatever that 82,000 is, we know the number is bigger. The question is
[23:31.760 --> 23:38.160] just how big and how much can our hearts take it? That's how the bankruptcy has started. It's
[23:38.160 --> 23:44.880] trying to have that liability protection from any future lawsuits from what happened in the past.
[23:44.880 --> 23:50.320] They're trying to officially wipe the slate clean and move on. If it's helpful, I can talk a little
[23:50.320 --> 23:55.200] bit about what that process has been like. It's been a journey seeing an organization
[23:55.200 --> 24:01.200] weaponize the legal system. Yeah, no. I would love to see that. Our podcast is about abuses
[24:01.200 --> 24:07.040] of power. It seems to me that an organization that's set up to teach the principles and
[24:07.040 --> 24:13.120] tenets of what America boasts, to have the leadership seek to minimize what's being exposed
[24:13.120 --> 24:18.560] rather than be ambitious to expose it and fix it, tells me that they don't even represent the
[24:18.560 --> 24:23.520] principles that they boast as well. It's going to take the 82,000 men that they trained to
[24:23.520 --> 24:28.640] expose them and show it how it's done. I'm always interested in hearing what protects
[24:28.640 --> 24:33.680] these perpetrators in the ecosystem and exposing who the people that protect the
[24:33.680 --> 24:38.800] perpetrators are and how and why they do it. Please go for it.
[24:38.800 --> 24:46.880] Join me for about a three-year ride here. They file for bankruptcy in November of 2020. That's
[24:46.880 --> 24:53.840] when the window to sign up is over. They run through the different duplicates and make sure
[24:53.840 --> 24:59.040] that there's a chance to see who actually filled out all the information, but the number
[24:59.040 --> 25:05.200] that we've mostly settled on is around 82,000 people. The first difficult challenge that's
[25:05.200 --> 25:11.520] here is that we are not classified for the most part as victims or survivors or humans
[25:11.520 --> 25:16.640] that have been hurt. We're classified as claimants. Everything that we've been through,
[25:17.280 --> 25:22.880] all the trauma that we experienced and all the challenges that happen after the fact,
[25:22.880 --> 25:27.440] that all gets reduced into this conversation around dollars and cents.
[25:28.160 --> 25:35.760] I'm not able to sue them for past harm because of this bankruptcy. The only thing I can do now
[25:35.760 --> 25:42.000] is to go and participate in this bankruptcy and hope that I get some financial damages
[25:42.000 --> 25:45.280] because that's the closest thing I can get to justice.
[25:45.280 --> 25:48.240] Which makes it looks like that's your objective, too.
[25:48.240 --> 25:53.760] You'll see everything from the scouts to these large insurance companies, the largest
[25:53.760 --> 25:59.360] insurance companies in the country, because who wouldn't want to insure the scouts?
[25:59.360 --> 26:03.520] They're America. They're as American as apple pie. Of course you'd want to insure them.
[26:03.520 --> 26:11.040] These large institutions are now doing everything they can to frame us as simply trying to seek
[26:11.040 --> 26:15.280] the money. There's been Wall Street Journal articles talking about that.
[26:16.240 --> 26:22.240] Then you see this bankruptcy go through the actual process where we watched the Department
[26:22.240 --> 26:28.400] of Justice select a few survivors to step in as a tort claimants committee.
[26:28.400 --> 26:34.800] So nine survivors that said, I'm not getting any money out of this. I'm about to spend countless
[26:34.800 --> 26:41.280] hours in negotiations and make this one of the big focuses of my life for the next few years.
[26:41.280 --> 26:45.440] These brave men stepped up and said, we're going to participate in this.
[26:46.640 --> 26:53.280] They then engaged in negotiations constantly. We watched as they and the teams that represented
[26:53.280 --> 26:59.120] them were negotiating with insurance companies, with the Boy Scouts directly, and with some of
[26:59.120 --> 27:04.480] these large lawyers that work in the mass tort world. You can think of asbestos cases
[27:04.480 --> 27:08.960] as another good example. These lawyers come in borrowing money from Wall Street,
[27:08.960 --> 27:13.760] getting as many survivors as they possibly can to sign up and then saying, all right,
[27:13.760 --> 27:17.760] we have enough people. What's the biggest payout that we can get with the least amount of work?
[27:17.760 --> 27:22.320] And then let's settle and move on. And I'll tell you, that was a big success.
[27:22.320 --> 27:26.560] Their lawyers are going to walk away from this with probably close to a billion dollars.
[27:26.560 --> 27:33.200] And that's, you know, that itself hurts. So you see this bankruptcy process as a battle
[27:33.280 --> 27:39.600] mostly between insurance companies, the Boy Scouts, these groups called chartered organizations that
[27:39.600 --> 27:48.320] host a troop, picture a church or a local YMCA that would host a local troop in their facility.
[27:48.320 --> 27:55.200] And then these mass tort lawyers all negotiating over dollars and cents and assets. That's language
[27:55.200 --> 28:02.160] around debtors and creditors. And what gets pushed to the side most of the time is 82,000 broken
[28:02.160 --> 28:08.880] men. And that's, that's just seems to be par for the course. We go through this whole process.
[28:08.880 --> 28:14.320] And who we are now at a stage where we have the largest settlement trust that's ever been pulled
[28:14.320 --> 28:19.760] together for a child abuse bankruptcy. The numbers differ because insurance claims are
[28:19.760 --> 28:25.840] to this day still being sorted out. But there's a likelihood that it'll go above $3 billion in the
[28:25.840 --> 28:32.000] settlement trust. That sounds like a big number. That is a big number. But if you do basic math,
[28:32.000 --> 28:38.320] and you divide that by 82,000 people, that is very little. And it does not even come close
[28:38.320 --> 28:43.680] to covering someone's therapy expenses, let alone all the other harms that are out there that
[28:43.680 --> 28:49.200] people have had to deal with. So this bankruptcy just said, there is no path to justice. What is
[28:49.200 --> 28:54.480] the least amount of money that we can pass off to you to make this go away? And the scouts get
[28:54.480 --> 29:00.080] to step forward into the next chapter of life free and clear. And who's left holding the bag
[29:00.080 --> 29:04.480] survivors? Can you do the math for me? I'm trying to do the basic math. So let's say we've got 3
[29:04.480 --> 29:13.920] billion exactly divided that by 82,000. That's going to come out to $36,585 before lawyers take
[29:13.920 --> 29:23.840] 30 to 40%. This podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing supportive generous patrons. Are you
[29:23.920 --> 29:30.240] with us? Come find us over on patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty for bonus episodes,
[29:30.240 --> 29:35.120] exclusive content and the occasional zoom with our fan favorites from our past episodes.
[29:35.120 --> 29:36.480] It's a lot of fun over there people.
[29:44.960 --> 29:49.360] Break times over people. Let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty. It's a good one.
[29:49.360 --> 29:57.120] With a tort like that, how do you even put a price on pornography versus full rape? How
[29:57.120 --> 30:02.480] does that even determined? I get to say there's six tiers and I'm fortunate enough to be in the
[30:02.480 --> 30:09.200] most painful and difficult tier. I think what's really difficult here is that through this
[30:09.200 --> 30:16.400] process, they spoke with experts and they outlined what would that look like if we had all the
[30:16.400 --> 30:22.720] money in the world, what would it a reasonable, whatever that means payout look like for someone
[30:22.720 --> 30:29.760] that's experienced those six levels of abuse, starting with non-touching all the way up to
[30:29.760 --> 30:35.360] assault or rape. Those numbers are in line with things that you would see with say the USC
[30:35.360 --> 30:43.920] gymnastics team and their bankruptcy. And you go a million plus that's, it's hard to put a number
[30:43.920 --> 30:48.720] on it, but that, that seems like that can help somebody start to heal and cover what they've had
[30:48.720 --> 30:54.480] to do to take care of themselves along this journey. But then you see what the actual amount is
[30:54.480 --> 31:00.960] and it drops from them explicitly saying, this is what we believe it's technically worth all the
[31:00.960 --> 31:09.680] way down to an average of that 30,000 or so. And what's especially difficult is that that's only
[31:09.760 --> 31:13.920] if you go through the full process, this bankruptcy is still not over. We're having to fill out
[31:13.920 --> 31:19.920] questionnaires that will get reviewed by a federal judge involved in this bankruptcy settlement
[31:19.920 --> 31:26.720] trust. They're going to dig into our histories, knowing fully well that most of us don't have
[31:26.720 --> 31:31.360] a lot of clear information. When you're a child and you experienced this, you're not going to
[31:31.360 --> 31:36.720] have a clear memory. The science shows that's not how people remember things. And so you have
[31:36.720 --> 31:42.880] to go through this potentially multi-year process to get pennies on the dollar that then have 30 to
[31:42.880 --> 31:51.360] 40% scraped off by lawyers. They also gave this one time $3,500 option that says, all right, you
[31:51.360 --> 31:57.360] can take this check now. You cannot sue the scouts for any past abuse, but your journey with
[31:57.360 --> 32:03.360] this bankruptcy is over. And I don't know the official number, but at least 9,000 people have
[32:03.360 --> 32:07.440] taken that option. And it's not because they said, this is good. It's because they said,
[32:07.440 --> 32:14.640] I need to be done with this. This is too painful. I need to get out of this. And that stinks $3,500
[32:16.000 --> 32:21.680] for all of that. That's embarrassing. Money's not the solution to trauma. It may help,
[32:21.680 --> 32:26.800] but unfortunately, that's the only thing that a government can offer unless it's going to offer
[32:26.800 --> 32:30.640] some therapy. Just this whole time you're talking, I have this burning question, which is
[32:30.640 --> 32:33.840] like, if they're going to have to pay out anyway, is the point of the bankruptcy,
[32:33.840 --> 32:38.880] for those who haven't seen the doc to protect them from an investigation or what's like,
[32:38.880 --> 32:42.640] if they're paying anyway, why go bankrupt? So they pay less.
[32:42.640 --> 32:43.600] That's to get it over with.
[32:44.480 --> 32:51.520] It's a little bit of both. So there's two types of bankruptcy that exists. And what we're seeing
[32:51.520 --> 32:58.640] is a really scary trend of different organizations picking just one of those options. So imagine
[32:58.720 --> 33:03.120] you're an organization. Maybe you're a church or a faith institution. Maybe you're the Boy Scouts.
[33:03.120 --> 33:09.440] Maybe you're a sporting program that serves youth. Any group that says, we know we have a history
[33:09.440 --> 33:14.960] of this and we are at risk of being sued for it, which good. If this has happened,
[33:14.960 --> 33:20.320] you should be at risk for being sued. And they say, we now have two options. We
[33:20.880 --> 33:26.480] either go for chapter seven bankruptcy and we liquidate all our assets and we no longer
[33:26.480 --> 33:32.080] exist. We failed in our most basic goal of protecting the youth that we serve. And we
[33:32.080 --> 33:37.440] don't get to exist anymore. We are completely done chapter seven, or you see the trend that
[33:37.440 --> 33:42.560] we're starting to watch happen now, which is chapter 11, where they go through this process,
[33:43.120 --> 33:50.800] they spend out as much as they possibly can to all of the creditors. So not just the
[33:51.360 --> 33:56.320] not just the survivors, but the insurance companies that are involved or the chartered
[33:56.320 --> 34:03.760] organizations. Everybody's getting involved in this piece. And once you finish out that bankruptcy,
[34:03.760 --> 34:09.280] once all the different groups agree on a plan and say, I guess this is the best we can do,
[34:09.280 --> 34:15.760] then they are now federally protected from any future lawsuits based on whatever is covered in
[34:15.760 --> 34:21.440] that bankruptcy. Basically the scouts can't be sued for past harms that fall under this.
[34:21.440 --> 34:24.400] And that's what they're looking for. It's that liability shield.
[34:24.400 --> 34:29.360] How is that okay? How is that even a thing that is possible? Where does this come from? Where
[34:29.360 --> 34:34.160] does chapter 11 come from? Who started that? Congress started it for business.
[34:34.160 --> 34:35.360] I'm Canadian. I get to ask.
[34:35.360 --> 34:41.760] It's a business bankruptcy. That's what it's dollars and cents. It's my business did not
[34:41.760 --> 34:48.000] manage to line up where our flow of money isn't quite working out. Maybe we took the wrong swing.
[34:48.000 --> 34:52.400] We invested in the wrong thing. And sure enough, we don't have the money to pay everybody out. So
[34:52.400 --> 34:58.240] we file for bankruptcy. And now it's being used by organizations to cover up for child abuse.
[34:59.280 --> 35:01.200] That is not how Congress intended this.
[35:01.200 --> 35:04.880] The shame on them. Shame on the Boy Scouts.
[35:04.880 --> 35:08.240] Well, I mean, the thing is, if you're using a business loophole to do it,
[35:08.240 --> 35:12.800] what was the business? And they claim it was, you know, to grow kids.
[35:12.800 --> 35:15.920] Well, this leads us to a perfect question. Here on a Little Bit Cult, we always want
[35:15.920 --> 35:19.520] to understand how public policy and the letter of the law needs to change in order to fight
[35:19.520 --> 35:24.560] these types of abuses. What else should we be asking our lawmakers as concerned citizens
[35:24.560 --> 35:29.360] and constituents? Can I dive into the statute of limitations just a little bit?
[35:29.360 --> 35:29.760] Yeah, sure.
[35:29.760 --> 35:30.320] Yeah.
[35:30.320 --> 35:37.200] So that's the low hanging fruit, in my opinion. And this case right now shows why statutes and
[35:37.200 --> 35:43.360] limitations are so important. So federal bankruptcy, every single state in the country,
[35:43.360 --> 35:50.000] every U.S. territory as well is involved in this in some way, shape or form. And every single state
[35:50.000 --> 35:55.440] has a different statute of limitations. Well, for the listeners who may not know what that term is,
[35:55.440 --> 36:02.960] that basically says, here is the number of years that you have to sue somebody for something that
[36:02.960 --> 36:09.040] happened. It makes sense if your farmer Joe and farmer Eddie took your cow. And a few years pass
[36:09.040 --> 36:13.680] and well, there's no cow there. So how do you have the evidence? How do you prove that statute of
[36:13.680 --> 36:19.280] limitations makes sense. It means that you can't just arbitrarily sue anybody at any point for
[36:19.280 --> 36:25.440] anything that makes sense. But it really doesn't work here. Because think about it. I live in
[36:25.440 --> 36:32.000] South Carolina, our statute of limitations says you need to come forward with a claim of sexual
[36:32.000 --> 36:38.400] violence you experienced as a child, either by the age of 27, or if you were pressed it within
[36:38.400 --> 36:44.320] three years of that memory coming to the surface. The average age for someone to come forward and
[36:44.320 --> 36:51.280] share with anybody, not in a lawsuit, but even with a partner, a loved one, a family member,
[36:51.280 --> 36:58.640] the average age is 52 years old. And if I'm doing the math, 27 times two is 54. I mean,
[36:58.640 --> 37:05.440] that's, that's pretty much half your life is has already passed by knowing that you couldn't
[37:05.440 --> 37:10.640] ever file that you couldn't even have a chance to seek justice, not even have a guarantee,
[37:10.640 --> 37:17.280] but just try to file a claim and go through that process and just show just how arbitrary it is.
[37:17.280 --> 37:24.160] I joined this bankruptcy in November of 2020. I was 26 years old. And it took me a little while to
[37:24.800 --> 37:30.400] figure out who my lawyer was going to be. I did as much research as I could. And when I finally
[37:30.400 --> 37:36.240] settled on someone in January, the first question they asked me was, well, have you filed a claim in
[37:36.240 --> 37:41.520] South Carolina? I said, No. They said, How old are you? I said, I just turned 27 in December.
[37:41.520 --> 37:47.040] They said, Well, you can't do it anymore. I joined a federal bankruptcy technically in the
[37:47.040 --> 37:52.640] statute in my own state. But because I didn't file that separate claim, now whatever I get
[37:52.640 --> 37:58.880] is pennies on the pennies on the dollar. And if that's confusing, that's the point. That's the
[37:58.880 --> 38:05.760] issue. There are so many states right now, there's a great group that is called child USA that I
[38:05.760 --> 38:11.360] fortunately sit on the board of with Mike render that you've had on the podcast before. And they're
[38:11.360 --> 38:17.600] working to change all of these statutes across the country and say, number one, let's open this up.
[38:17.600 --> 38:23.120] If you've experienced sexual violence as a child, especially you take as long as you need. Let's
[38:23.120 --> 38:28.000] follow the science. It takes time for you to heal and feel comfortable coming forward. Let's
[38:28.000 --> 38:33.680] let's just not apply statutes and limitations here. And because we've been so far behind for
[38:33.680 --> 38:38.560] as long as we have, let's make it possible for people to come forward in what's called a
[38:38.560 --> 38:44.000] revival window, you get a year, maybe three years to come forward and say this happened,
[38:44.000 --> 38:49.440] and then we can move into a better model. So we're in the process of doing that all across the
[38:49.440 --> 38:56.480] country. There's bills that are getting advanced in Ohio that just passed or bills in Alabama and
[38:56.480 --> 39:00.800] South Carolina that are trying to make a difference, but we don't know how that's going to play out.
[39:00.800 --> 39:05.840] And that's, that's a really important one. I think the second piece is around chapter 11
[39:05.840 --> 39:11.360] bankruptcy itself. No organization, I don't care who you are, how storied your past is,
[39:11.360 --> 39:17.360] or how aspirational your goals are. No organization should ever be able to file for chapter 11
[39:17.360 --> 39:24.560] bankruptcy for systematic institutionalized child abuse. That should be just removed as an option.
[39:24.560 --> 39:29.280] If you get to this level, then you forfeited your role. You didn't protect the youth you serve,
[39:29.280 --> 39:34.320] and you don't get that opportunity. And maybe there's other ways to pursue scouting. Those are
[39:34.320 --> 39:39.360] the, I think the two big pieces that we can really address right now. And then the third one
[39:39.920 --> 39:47.360] is more how organizations work with each other. We know that different predators or perpetrators
[39:47.360 --> 39:53.360] will bounce within scouts or will even bounce between different organizations. You know,
[39:53.360 --> 39:58.880] they can show up and say a big brothers, big sisters, or in a church or faith setting,
[39:58.880 --> 40:04.800] or in the boy scouts, and they can bounce between all of those. And how do we build a system
[40:04.800 --> 40:09.840] to track and to flag those people that have been removed from one organization for this
[40:09.840 --> 40:16.080] problematic behavior and a way that's, it respects everybody and says, Hey, we're not going to do
[40:16.080 --> 40:21.680] false accusations here, but it makes sure that if that's, that's a tangible issue, if it's clear
[40:21.680 --> 40:26.960] that there's, there's that pattern of behavior, then that should be flagged for every youth
[40:26.960 --> 40:31.200] serving organization. So there's all these different models that we can work towards,
[40:31.200 --> 40:35.840] but the big two I'm focused on right now are statute of limitations and chapter 11 bankruptcy.
[40:35.840 --> 40:42.560] The very fact that the response of the organization to file chapter 11 is the most telling thing
[40:42.560 --> 40:48.560] ever, as opposed to concern for 82,000 people that may have had a big experience. One of the
[40:48.560 --> 40:53.120] people that Sarah and I really had a problem with was the, what was the leader's name?
[40:53.120 --> 40:54.880] In the documentary. I forget his name.
[40:54.880 --> 41:01.920] The former general counsel. And he tried to flex. He was this noble guy. He's like, one
[41:02.480 --> 41:07.680] is enough, but he had 82,000 people and tried to minimize the abuse. And I just thought, Oh God.
[41:07.680 --> 41:11.200] Did you hear that his deflection, Nippy and I were debating whether it was gaslighting or not.
[41:11.200 --> 41:15.280] There were a few. I remember the, over how many years that's one that's.
[41:15.280 --> 41:19.840] Yeah, over how many years. And also he was like, basically he was saying, like Nippy said,
[41:19.840 --> 41:24.160] like trying to be all honorable. Like one is too many for us and that one is enough.
[41:24.160 --> 41:28.560] Then he basically said, in any organization, there's going to be predators in any community.
[41:28.560 --> 41:31.760] There's going to be predators. So there's obviously going to be predators here.
[41:31.760 --> 41:38.480] He tried to make it like analogous to society. And I'm just like, no, this is an organization
[41:38.480 --> 41:46.320] that's specifically for the youth character and all these things in boys. You can't have this
[41:46.320 --> 41:53.520] anywhere close. And he is right. One is too many, let alone 82,000. And the fact that he
[41:53.520 --> 42:01.520] feels like it's collateral damage to running a business is really what I was hearing was sickening
[42:01.520 --> 42:06.960] and the fact that he seeks to protect it rather than not get the rot out is just very telling
[42:06.960 --> 42:11.120] for me and an admission of guilt. Yeah. Chapter 11 is an admission of guilt.
[42:11.120 --> 42:16.800] For me. Oh, and for the government as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very clear admission
[42:16.800 --> 42:22.080] and recognition, but it's also a dodge and a liability shield. And I'm so glad that you
[42:22.080 --> 42:26.880] brought up that specific argument that was raised because it's technically true, but it's
[42:26.880 --> 42:33.680] disingenuous. So this happens everywhere. Let's go ahead and say it. Sexual violence against
[42:33.680 --> 42:37.920] children and adolescents happens everywhere. It happens in faith institutions, youth sporting
[42:37.920 --> 42:42.640] programs. It happens in the home, especially we're seeing a lot of rise there, especially
[42:42.640 --> 42:48.800] with online harms that that's a whole nother bucket to deal with. You can see it in camping
[42:48.800 --> 42:55.600] associations or in schools or foster care settings. It happens everywhere. The challenge is that this
[42:55.600 --> 43:01.120] is a really bad baseline we're currently at. And the Boy Scouts managed to build something that is
[43:01.120 --> 43:08.320] far worse. And you have this culture of going out into the woods, which beautiful. I love
[43:08.320 --> 43:14.000] camping, but when you do it in a structured organization that isn't managing it as well
[43:14.080 --> 43:20.560] as they can, that's an area of deep, deep concern. It has that masculine culture that's saying,
[43:20.560 --> 43:24.720] if something happens to you, if you are the victim of something, you don't talk about it,
[43:24.720 --> 43:30.160] you toughen up because otherwise we'll ridicule and outcast you. That's a culture that still
[43:30.160 --> 43:35.920] to this day exists. And I think it's moving in the right direction, but it needs to move faster.
[43:35.920 --> 43:42.880] And then you also have that franchise model where there's all of these 250 plus
[43:42.880 --> 43:49.040] local councils that operate slightly on their own, but slightly connected. They all have their
[43:49.040 --> 43:54.240] own ways of operating. And do they communicate well with each other? Not as well as they should.
[43:54.240 --> 44:02.640] There's gaps everywhere. And one extra layer here is that every troop within every local council
[44:02.640 --> 44:08.240] has to be chartered by another organization, usually a church or faith institution. So these
[44:08.240 --> 44:13.920] areas that we know are also problematic, you now have a permeable membrane. You have this place
[44:13.920 --> 44:20.880] where people can jump back and forth and priests also serve as scout troop leaders. And that abuse
[44:20.880 --> 44:27.200] can happen in both settings. It carries back and forth. So if you look at the model and say,
[44:27.200 --> 44:30.960] all right, we're focused on youth protection, what does this model look like? I'd say it looks
[44:30.960 --> 44:35.280] like a piece of Swiss cheese. There's just holes and gaps everywhere. And you can do as much as
[44:35.280 --> 44:41.360] possible, but we're not even getting to the bare minimum yet. We're moving there, but nowhere
[44:41.360 --> 44:45.920] where we need to. And now a brief message from our A Little Bit Cultie sponsors.
[44:51.840 --> 44:56.480] Break time's over, people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Cultie. It's a good one.
[44:58.320 --> 45:04.560] Tom, if I was interested in abusing children, that's where I would go. That seems like a safe
[45:04.560 --> 45:10.800] organization for me if I'm that kind of person. Or I could find a place pretty quickly by getting
[45:10.800 --> 45:15.520] into that ecosystem. Moreover, Michael Johnson, if you guys watch the documentary, Michael Johnson
[45:15.520 --> 45:19.200] is the guy that kind of comes in and is like, what's going on here? He's the main whistleblower.
[45:19.200 --> 45:25.520] And he's just like not having any of it. When the culture does get someone who embodies those
[45:25.520 --> 45:28.800] principles, they don't even know how to handle it and process them. They don't even know how to
[45:28.800 --> 45:32.880] go, this guy needs to be in the position of authority and leadership because he embodies
[45:32.880 --> 45:36.240] everything that we have. And I've said this and I was watching this and I was like,
[45:37.200 --> 45:40.000] you know, I had this conversation about a month ago with a friend of mine. He's like,
[45:40.000 --> 45:45.680] imagine if America were to design the perfect political presidential candidate. There's no
[45:45.680 --> 45:50.160] way that person would get elected. This wouldn't let it happen. The system is such where it
[45:50.160 --> 45:55.280] doesn't know how to process good people anymore and put them in the positions of leadership. And
[45:55.280 --> 45:59.520] if you guys win, you guys, and if you watch the documentary, Michael Johnson gave me goosebumps
[45:59.520 --> 46:05.440] because he just stands friends with him. We've had the chance to connect a few times and I argue
[46:05.440 --> 46:11.120] it's a heightened level of fire even in person. And when you hear all the different stories,
[46:11.120 --> 46:15.120] you realize there are those gaps. Yeah. And he gave me the goosebumps. I was like,
[46:15.120 --> 46:20.240] seeing someone like that go in and do the job that he was doing and not backing down. Just,
[46:20.240 --> 46:24.800] it made me feel good about a lot of things. There was hope. There was some hope at the
[46:24.800 --> 46:31.040] end of the doc, which is a good segue door. So Tom, you've really stepped into a service mindset.
[46:31.040 --> 46:34.320] What does it take at a grassroots level to tackle something as big as this? What's the
[46:34.320 --> 46:38.720] strategy? We've talked a little bit about this. Where do you start with something this insidious?
[46:38.720 --> 46:44.000] How do you climb that big of a mountain? I am beyond delighted that you just use that
[46:44.000 --> 46:48.720] analogy. That's the same one that I use constantly. Most people, when they hear of this
[46:48.720 --> 46:55.200] issue and really start to pull back the veil on the scale of what's happening,
[46:55.200 --> 47:00.880] we're talking conservatively one in five girls and one in 13 boys per the CDC.
[47:00.880 --> 47:05.680] Although other estimates are saying it's as high as one in three girls and one in six boys that
[47:05.680 --> 47:10.800] experienced some form of sexual violence, abuse, or exploitation before the age of 18.
[47:10.800 --> 47:16.240] I mean, that's staggering. That means it's in every single community. That means that regardless
[47:16.240 --> 47:22.400] of your socioeconomic status, your gender, your race, your religion, your geography,
[47:22.400 --> 47:28.320] the presence of ability or disability, anybody is at risk of dealing with this.
[47:28.320 --> 47:33.680] The first reaction is, I don't want to look at this and I'm going to just avoid it.
[47:33.680 --> 47:39.440] Stigma, shame, the veil goes up. The second reaction is overwhelmed. This is too big. That
[47:39.440 --> 47:44.320] mountain is too big to climb. The reaction I try to focus people on is the third one,
[47:44.320 --> 47:48.320] which is not looking at the mountain, but looking at all the people around you trying to climb it.
[47:48.320 --> 47:53.840] Because right now, we have people all over the country and around the world that are working
[47:53.840 --> 47:58.560] on this. They've been doing it for generations, for all of time. There are people that say,
[47:58.560 --> 48:04.080] we need to keep kids safe. We need to be brave. We need to do what we can to protect our kids.
[48:04.080 --> 48:08.800] And you see them show up in school board meetings or at youth sporting programs.
[48:09.280 --> 48:15.520] Sarah, you actually said that you know to check and ask, has this person been vetted?
[48:15.520 --> 48:20.880] Has this volunteer been vetted? It's individual people stepping up and taking those small steps
[48:20.880 --> 48:26.000] to raise awareness. They're already doing that. That's already happening. The challenge is,
[48:26.000 --> 48:31.440] it's just not at scale. When we look around and we see people trying to make a difference
[48:31.440 --> 48:35.920] in every facet of society to protect our kids in the next generation, the question is,
[48:35.920 --> 48:41.360] how do we start to coordinate? This is where I think it gets fun. This is where it gets very
[48:41.360 --> 48:46.880] hopeful. Because when you talk to people that are advocating, there's this sense of,
[48:46.880 --> 48:52.080] I don't know what's happening, but it's more special than it's ever been. There's something
[48:52.080 --> 48:57.360] that's beginning to simmer just below the surface. It's this sense of coordination.
[48:58.080 --> 49:05.600] Different groups are working on specific issues. Let's take the example of someone that wants
[49:05.600 --> 49:10.880] to get involved. I want to make a difference. I'm not sure how. What do I do? Well, the first thing
[49:10.880 --> 49:19.120] is start local. Find maybe a children's advocacy center in your area. There's hundreds of them
[49:19.120 --> 49:23.680] scattered across the country, all pulled together by the Great National Children's Alliance.
[49:24.720 --> 49:30.560] They provide this space where a child can go in after some form of abuse or violence. It doesn't
[49:30.560 --> 49:37.600] have to be sexual, but the majority is. They offer this really nuanced, child-centered triage
[49:37.600 --> 49:42.640] to try and address this. You can find a way to connect with those groups and then figure out
[49:42.640 --> 49:49.200] other opportunities in the area. Maybe you can focus on a specific setting of abuse that
[49:49.200 --> 49:54.160] resonates with you. If you're religious and want to work in the church, there's groups like SNAP,
[49:54.160 --> 50:00.160] the survivors network of those abused by priests. It's a group that was highlighted in the movie
[50:00.160 --> 50:06.880] Spotlight, if you all ever saw that. Phenomenal organization, for the most part, focused on
[50:06.880 --> 50:12.080] support and healing, but also interested in mobilizing towards action in the faith setting,
[50:12.080 --> 50:17.360] any faith setting. Maybe you're interested in sports. Well, there's the army of survivors that
[50:17.360 --> 50:22.800] does really good work with child athletes and making sure that they have that safe space too.
[50:23.840 --> 50:29.760] Key here is you're finding something that you're passionate about that's local and resonates with
[50:29.760 --> 50:36.320] you and you get started there. The amount of information sharing that's happening, the people
[50:36.320 --> 50:42.480] that are connecting left and right, there's plenty of ways to get involved. We're very excited
[50:42.480 --> 50:47.120] at both the brave movement and keep it safe to highlight some of those opportunities.
[50:47.120 --> 50:49.920] That's great. Is army of survivors, is that Grace French?
[50:49.920 --> 50:55.200] That is, yes. Phenomenal. She is a force of nature. She's fantastic.
[50:55.200 --> 50:56.080] Powerhouse.
[50:56.080 --> 51:02.240] We've even had the chance to work with her around lobbying Congress and raising awareness with
[51:02.240 --> 51:06.880] different legislators and some of the committees that are popping up to address this issue.
[51:06.880 --> 51:11.440] There's phenomenal people everywhere you look. You just need to know to look to them.
[51:11.440 --> 51:16.880] What can we say about the shame and stigma? We started the podcast because we wanted to
[51:16.880 --> 51:21.920] build a roof off the stigma and shame. This is really the first one. There's one other one we
[51:21.920 --> 51:27.200] did that where little boys were targeted and how is that different and what have you found
[51:27.200 --> 51:29.840] the difficulties in those conversations?
[51:29.840 --> 51:33.760] I love that question. That's the one that scares people off the most.
[51:33.760 --> 51:35.120] I felt scared just hearing it.
[51:35.760 --> 51:43.120] Right? It sounds terrifying, but it genuinely isn't. The stigma and the shame, we have learned
[51:43.120 --> 51:48.560] that it's uncomfortable to talk about this. It doesn't mean it is uncomfortable to talk about.
[51:48.560 --> 51:53.760] It just means that that's what we've been taught. That's what our society has communicated.
[51:53.760 --> 52:00.640] When someone passes, the community gets together and they grieve. There's a funeral and there's
[52:00.640 --> 52:08.400] this event that's held to mourn what has been lost. It's very possible to have a similar model
[52:08.400 --> 52:14.880] for this. Someone experiences sexual violence as a child. What's lost is their innocence.
[52:14.880 --> 52:19.680] What's lost is their childhood. Being able to come together and mourn and grieve that,
[52:19.680 --> 52:24.800] that's a beautiful thing. Not that it happened, but the fact that we can come together and say,
[52:24.800 --> 52:29.200] this is not your shame to carry. We're not going to put the weight and the burden of this
[52:29.200 --> 52:37.120] on a child's tiny shoulders. There's real power in building a new model and it absolutely can
[52:37.120 --> 52:43.440] happen because stigma and shame is learned behavior. It's not definitive. If people doubt
[52:43.440 --> 52:48.240] me on that, you may not see this because it's a podcast, so you can't see my face. I'm smiling
[52:48.240 --> 52:53.840] most of the time I talk about it. There's no stigma and shame here. I've had the chance to
[52:53.840 --> 53:02.240] shed it and realize I can say this is a terrible thing that happened to me. I've managed to find
[53:02.240 --> 53:07.600] the way to heal, to be in community with people, and to then find my way to give back and make
[53:07.600 --> 53:14.240] sure it doesn't happen again. The same way that we improved automobiles to make sure that car crashes
[53:14.240 --> 53:19.200] happen less and less often and we can talk about seat belts and road design and speed limits,
[53:19.200 --> 53:23.920] we can talk about the same thing here. How do we keep kids safe? How do we protect them?
[53:23.920 --> 53:30.080] That is a normal conversation. We're just afraid to have it. That's the high level. The challenge
[53:30.080 --> 53:34.400] is how do we get there because we know that there are a couple forces working against us.
[53:34.400 --> 53:40.480] The first force is institutions that are so focused on their image, they don't want to change
[53:40.480 --> 53:45.760] things. That's the challenge with the Boy Scouts, with a lot of churches. They will actually
[53:45.760 --> 53:51.920] heighten that stigma and shame and say, we don't talk about this. The second is issues that happen
[53:51.920 --> 53:58.160] in the home within families themselves. The family institution is an institution. It's just really
[53:58.160 --> 54:05.120] small. If you have that culture of, we don't talk about these things, then that's passing along that
[54:05.120 --> 54:12.320] learned behavior. Lastly, there's the specific nuances with different subgroups, whether you're
[54:12.320 --> 54:18.880] talking along racial lines. There's a lot of people that are in the black community that
[54:18.880 --> 54:25.920] truly don't talk about homosexuality or LGBTQ issues, let alone the issues of child sexual
[54:25.920 --> 54:30.640] abuse. It's one of the big things that me too is tackled so brilliantly, is recognizing the
[54:30.640 --> 54:37.280] unique subculture. You can see something similar with boys. There's a group, phenomenal group called
[54:37.280 --> 54:44.320] 1 and 6, that their goal is to break down that specific layer of stigma and shame. This is not
[54:44.320 --> 54:50.160] something that defines your sexuality. This is not something that makes you less of a man. This is
[54:50.160 --> 54:55.200] purely a trauma that was inflicted upon you. And if you're a child, oh, you were even more
[54:55.200 --> 55:00.480] powerless at the time. There's nothing you can do, and this is not your shame to carry. Here's other
[55:00.480 --> 55:05.760] men that are stepping forward, talking about it in a measured way, in an open way, in a way that's
[55:05.760 --> 55:12.720] focused on healing and support. And all over the country, people are changing how they view things
[55:12.720 --> 55:19.280] and feeling more open to talk about it. So it sounds like a daunting issue, and it may not be
[55:19.280 --> 55:24.560] the easiest thing for us to fix, but the way to fix it, the way to address it is simple.
[55:24.640 --> 55:26.880] It's simple, but not easy, and we can do it.
[55:26.880 --> 55:31.920] Once you put language in a roadmap, a lot of it's execution, and it takes a couple pioneers
[55:31.920 --> 55:36.800] to exhaust that. One of the things that I think just in hearing you speak might be an obstacle.
[55:36.800 --> 55:42.000] I can just relate to my story. There was an aspect of, I didn't protect my family in my
[55:42.000 --> 55:46.320] story. I didn't protect my wife. And I wrestled with that for a minute, and I got to the
[55:46.320 --> 55:51.440] conclusion that I didn't really have anything to do with that. But I'm wondering, as a kid,
[55:51.440 --> 55:56.560] I don't know how many the kids are going to go. I wasn't able to protect myself or handle myself.
[55:56.560 --> 56:02.320] That's a big male thing. Was there any of that in your household? How was your father
[56:02.320 --> 56:06.320] reconciling what happened in something that was so positive otherwise?
[56:06.320 --> 56:11.360] That one's tricky. My dad had actually passed before this really bubbled to the surface.
[56:12.480 --> 56:19.040] What makes that really difficult is joining this bankruptcy involved me trying to grapple with my
[56:19.040 --> 56:25.120] memory of him and all of the good that he did. He built a phenomenal scout troop. The experience
[56:25.120 --> 56:31.040] that he had, this one time where I was allowed to roam free around camp in a way that shouldn't
[56:31.040 --> 56:35.440] have happened, that doesn't take away from all the good that he did and all the beliefs that he had
[56:35.440 --> 56:42.400] around what can happen here. It was so heavy just to show how tough stigma and shame can be
[56:42.400 --> 56:47.680] if we don't address it. It took me nine months to join the bankruptcy. I knew it was happening
[56:47.680 --> 56:52.560] before it did. I could see the moves they were making. It still took me until the last day to
[56:52.560 --> 56:59.680] officially file. About a month later on Christmas Day, my dad's birthday actually, I attempted to
[56:59.680 --> 57:05.120] take my life because it just felt like I was ripping away that memory of him that was so
[57:05.120 --> 57:13.120] attached to masculinity, to the idea of scouting, to my sense of self. This is why it needs to
[57:13.120 --> 57:18.080] change. We're so afraid of what can happen that we don't dream about what could be.
[57:19.280 --> 57:23.920] Yeah, really well put. I'm going to make a wild guess here that being an advocate and speaking
[57:23.920 --> 57:29.760] out against all of this has been a huge part of your healing. What else have you done to heal
[57:29.760 --> 57:34.320] and to go from attempting suicide to clearly thriving in the way that you are today?
[57:34.320 --> 57:39.120] I love that question because it shows that where you are is not where you can be.
[57:39.680 --> 57:45.760] And that feeling of being stuck or that you're an outcast, similar to a lot of the things that
[57:45.760 --> 57:51.680] you all talk about in the world of cults or cultiness, that feeling of being the only one
[57:51.680 --> 57:56.800] dealing with this, that's not a permanent state of being. One of the challenges with sexual
[57:56.800 --> 58:01.600] violence, especially for children, is that feeling of, I am alone in this. It happens
[58:01.680 --> 58:09.040] in the shadows. It's not the September 11th big traumatic event that happens, but a whole city
[58:09.040 --> 58:15.440] and nation can see it and share in that grief in that morning. It's something that usually is
[58:15.440 --> 58:21.840] pulled to the sides and never shared with people. You do feel alone in that. And when there's more
[58:21.840 --> 58:28.080] people like Nippy had said that are blazing that path and saying, here's how I healed and I'd like
[58:28.080 --> 58:33.200] you to walk that path with me, I can reach out the hand and show you the way. Suddenly you feel
[58:33.200 --> 58:39.520] less alone. And the world of advocacy has been mostly that. I'd talk to legislators. I'd help
[58:39.520 --> 58:44.960] with sign on letters or campaigns or initiatives, but the bulk of what I do is honestly just talk
[58:44.960 --> 58:50.480] to people. I've talked with mothers that are trying to grapple with stuff that has happened
[58:50.480 --> 58:57.680] in their own home with family members that are abusing. I've talked with people like Grace that
[58:57.680 --> 59:04.000] are taking on reputable names and saying that status symbol does not protect you. And if you
[59:04.000 --> 59:09.200] do this to children, then you are going to be held accountable. I get to talk to all of these people
[59:09.200 --> 59:16.000] that are stepping up or finding some way through this. And I've realized I am not even close to
[59:16.000 --> 59:21.040] alone and I get the chance to help others see that constantly. And that's such a beautiful thing.
[59:21.120 --> 59:27.680] And within the Boy Scouts specifically, one of the pieces that's been mandated by the bankruptcy,
[59:27.680 --> 59:32.160] this is court enforceable. If you hear language of, hey, we've set this up because it's the right
[59:32.160 --> 59:37.200] thing to do. It's not true. Court demanded it. There's a youth protection committee that's
[59:37.200 --> 59:42.080] getting set up to try and protect future generation, current and future generations of
[59:42.080 --> 59:47.680] Scouts. And part of that committee, part of what's mandated is that half of the members have
[59:47.680 --> 59:55.120] to be survivors and make sure that our voices are included in that discussion. And whether this
[59:55.120 --> 01:00:01.440] committee is able to get set up in a way that makes a lasting impact, that shows the Scouts
[01:00:01] are truly committed to protecting the youth that they serve, that's still up in the air. We'll
[01:00:06] see if we can make that happen. But knowing that I'm taking that on alongside other people that
[01:00:12] have struggled in other ways and healed in other ways, that's beautiful. It's a reminder I'm not
[01:00:17] alone and there's some bumpy roads ahead, but I'm not the only one navigating it. And that's
[01:00:23] a really incredible thing. I'd say that you've earned that badge. I really see that as the
[01:00:28] irony here is that there were certain values that the organization professed to teach and
[01:00:35] you're embodying it in a way that I think your dad would be really proud as a leader.
[01:00:40] They had asked in the film, why do you do this? And the answer I gave was, it's what an eagle would
[01:00:47] do. It's living up to the values that the organization failed to live up to. And that's
[01:00:53] the right thing. And hopefully we'll get them there. This is their one true last shot.
[01:00:59] They've gone through bankruptcy. They have this chance. There's a new youth protection executive
[01:01:04] at a higher level than Michael Johnson was reporting directly to the CEO, essentially.
[01:01:11] And there's this youth protection committee that's still getting set up. There's a few other
[01:01:17] programs, memorials, or third party accountability organizations that are getting added into the
[01:01:23] mix, all things that survivors negotiated in the bankruptcy. This was hard fought to even get to
[01:01:31] this. We now have the best chance that we have to take this to the next step and actually make
[01:01:38] the scouts into an organization that's safe for children. And I hope we can land it. I hope we can
[01:01:45] get there. But if we can't, the organization is forfeited its right to serve children and be the
[01:01:51] group that holds up the flag of scouting. It's up to them whether or not they want to do the
[01:01:56] right thing. And I'm just going to be out there constantly telling them what that right thing is.
[01:02:01] That's great. Where are you in that process, do you think? And how realistic and what's the timeline?
[01:02:06] What's the inertia like?
[01:02:07] I think that's three questions that are, I don't know, I'm not sure, and we'll see.
[01:02:12] Okay. That's fair. No, those are answers.
[01:02:16] It's early stage, but we're having the conversations. And there's a few pieces that we're able to
[01:02:23] leverage. There is this court enforceable document that has very explicit pieces laid out,
[01:02:29] and we're going to hold to those as best we can. And then there's just leveraging the other resources
[01:02:34] that we have. I have no doubt in my mind that the new youth protection executive man named Glen
[01:02:39] Pounder is well suited for the job. He's brilliant. He's got a great background. He knows the
[01:02:46] challenges of the 21st century and how technology is actually a challenge within scouting. He's got
[01:02:53] a great idea. The question is whether we can get leadership and the culture to change where it needs
[01:02:59] to. And that won't get answered for a few months, let alone a few years.
[01:03:05] Tom, is there anything that you think we missed in terms of your particular passionate talking
[01:03:10] points that you want our audience to know?
[01:03:12] I have one final piece.
[01:03:16] I appreciate that. I'm a big fan of quotes that carry through time. It shows that at the end of
[01:03:23] the day, we're all still human. And what resonates decades or generations ago can still resonate now.
[01:03:30] And there's this quote that I'd found from Robert F. Kennedy that he'd given in Cape Town,
[01:03:36] South Africa. And he said, the answer is to rely on youth. We're trying to solve our problems.
[01:03:41] The answer is to rely on youth. It's not a time of life, but a state of mind,
[01:03:48] a temper of the will, a quality of imagination, a predominance of courage over timidity,
[01:03:56] and a desire or an appetite for adventure over the love of ease. And if we're going to solve this
[01:04:03] problem of sexual violence against children and adolescents that shows up in organizations
[01:04:09] and culty behaviors or in the home or in any part of our society, if we're going to address that,
[01:04:16] we need the mindset of youth to think about what can happen, to imagine a world that can actually
[01:04:21] be there. There's courage. Kids get out there. They just build a fort. They just do crazy
[01:04:26] things and imagine what can be. And we get the chance to do that. And if you're in the US
[01:04:32] and you're interested in taking action and joining us, Keep Kids Safe is just getting started. We will
[01:04:39] be holding monthly state of the movement meetings so you can see everything that's going on and
[01:04:44] get connected. We'll be highlighting other organizations that are taking action and
[01:04:49] communities across the country, and we'll be otherwise pushing opportunities for you to get
[01:04:54] involved in a way that works for you at whatever scale or ability you have. Any time, any level,
[01:05:00] you can make a difference. And if you're interested in that, you can go to keepkidsafe.us.
[01:05:05] That's keepkidsafe.us. If you're global, come on by to the Brave Movement. Very similar mindset.
[01:05:12] We're watching action happen all around the world. We're watching people work on
[01:05:15] statute of limitations reform, influence how the largest tech companies are building platforms
[01:05:22] that protect children first and recognize the importance of that. We're seeing all kinds of
[01:05:28] efforts to do prevention, education, and change culture. And we're encouraging people constantly
[01:05:34] to be brave because this can be something that's fearful or nervous, anxiety producing.
[01:05:41] But that's the point of bravery. It's doing it in spite of that and reminding yourself that being
[01:05:46] brave does not mean being alone. So you can go to bravemovement.org to engage at the global level.
[01:05:52] So where can people reach out to you directly or personally?
[01:05:55] The best way is to come on by my newsletter that I'm starting. It's a weekly newsletter
[01:06:01] called The Solstice that talks about those moments where darkness turns to light and the
[01:06:07] greatest change can happen in the darkest of times. And you can find that at tomcrummons.us
[01:06:13] and follow me on substack.
[01:06:15] Excellent. Well, Tom, it's been a pleasure. I love this part of our job. It doesn't feel
[01:06:21] like a job. It's just connecting with somebody who I find really inspiring. I hope you keep us
[01:06:25] posted on what's happening so we can update our audience because I'm sure they'll want to know.
[01:06:30] Oh, absolutely. The goal is to make sure we're having these conversations and we're pushing the
[01:06:35] information out there and letting people know.
[01:06:37] Tom, thank you so much for coming a little bit cult-y and we'll see you next time.
[01:06:40] Thank you, Tom.
[01:06:41] Good to be here.
[01:06:44] Like what you hear, do you? Give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes.
[01:06:49] Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there.
[01:06:52] Smash that subscribe button. You know you want to.
[01:06:58] Well, dear listeners, we hope that you enjoyed that as much as we did.
[01:07:01] I think Tom is now one of my new personal heroes. How about you, Nip?
[01:07:05] Yeah, I think his way of handling the shame and saying,
[01:07:09] look at me right now. If you could see me right now, I'm telling this story with a smile on my face.
[01:07:12] So he is an example for people who are struggling with that and probably has a pretty good process
[01:07:18] and more knowledge to share with anyone who's dealing with that.
[01:07:21] Also, highly recommend watching the documentary. And I probably should have said this at the
[01:07:25] beginning. I'm sure there's going to be a million people writing in saying,
[01:07:28] what a great experience they may have had in the Boy Scouts. And I will say, like I said,
[01:07:32] with every group in the past, I'm glad you had a good experience.
[01:07:36] Yeah, just a reminder that we're not talking about the good in this podcast. Well,
[01:07:40] we are a little bit, but also what was the bad and the documentary does go into more detail.
[01:07:44] And I was specifically also quite rattled with how the Mormons were somehow sacrosanct
[01:07:49] in this whole debacle and just the regressive predator friendly laws.
[01:07:54] There's a lot of, a lot of things that are just wildly shocking in this doc and specifically
[01:08:00] how they target single mothers, these organizations and offering to take a young boy off a single
[01:08:05] mother's hand to go camping is like, I could see that just being such a gift and not
[01:08:09] understanding the red flags there. It's just so devastating to look back on in retrospect,
[01:08:13] but watch the doc, let us know what you think. And if you feel compelled to check out the
[01:08:19] organizations in your neighborhood, figuring out if they're continuing operations and if so,
[01:08:24] how, and are they changing their policies to protect from such things? See you next time.
[01:08:29] Thanks for listening. Bye-bye.
[01:08:40] Thanks for listening, everyone. We're heading over to patreon.com,
[01:08:53] slash a little bit. Culti now to discuss this episode. In the meantime, dear listener,
[01:08:58] please remember this podcast is solely for general informational, educational and entertainment
[01:09:03] purposes. It's not intended as a substitute for real medical legal or therapeutic advice
[01:09:09] for cult recovery resources. And to learn more about seeking safely in this cult world,
[01:09:14] check out a little bit culti dot com slash culti resources and don't miss Sarah's TED talk called
[01:09:19] how cult literate are you? Great stuff. A little bit culti is a trace one 20 production
[01:09:24] executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippey Ames in collaboration with
[01:09:28] producer Will Rutherford at citizens of sound and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard
[01:09:33] Jess Temple Tardy. Our show writer is Holly Zadra and our theme song cultivated is by John Bryant.
Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe.sonicengage.com/releases/20240204155445' directory
