Securely Speaking: Attachment Nerd Eli Harwood (Part 1)

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[00:00:45] Intro

[00:00:55] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:56] And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy, Ames.

[00:00:59] And this is A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great

[00:01:04] thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real

[00:01:09] cult stories told directly by the people who live through them. Because we want you to learn a few

[00:01:14] things we've had to learn the hard way. Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into

[00:01:19] something culty, you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult.

[00:01:24] Oops. You better keep listening to find out. Welcome to Season 6 of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:47] Welcome back to A Little Bit Culty, everybody.

[00:01:49] Our guest today has amassed hundreds of thousands of social media fans and followers by dispensing

[00:01:55] down-to-earth relationship wisdom and brilliant life hacks.

[00:01:58] Licensed therapist Eli Harwood is more than a whiz at making viral content. The author

[00:02:02] and content creator explains the brainy stuff of attachment theory along with DIY tricks for

[00:02:08] better relationships in a way that is absurdly helpful. And that's not her making big claims,

[00:02:13] that's us. She's been helpful to us. Okay? We don't just, you know, crap on all the self-helpy

[00:02:19] things on this podcast. Sometimes we actually tell you about the stuff that we do endorse in

[00:02:23] this space and Eli's work is one of those things. But... Here's the thing. We're always deeply

[00:02:29] interested in exploring how what happened to us happened to us. We also want to know and share

[00:02:34] with our listeners real-life steps to heal from toxic shit while deprogramming from cults or

[00:02:39] culty relationships. We'd love to have Eli join us for a chat about the way the attachment patterns

[00:02:44] impact our vulnerability to culty situations and vice versa. How all the culty crap affects

[00:02:48] our attachment patterns. It can be a real intricate Venn diagram or line graph or Gantt chart. Either

[00:02:55] way, it's better dissected by a pro. And Eli is a pro. But just a word to the wise,

[00:03:00] we do cover the topic of abuse in this episode. So listen with care. And also sorry for any F-bombs.

[00:03:07] And also this podcast is not a substitute for the kind of care you will get from a credentialed

[00:03:11] licensed therapist in therapy. It's just a podcast. Guys, I think that covers it all.

[00:03:17] Without further ado, let's get into it. And here's our chat with Eli Harwood.

[00:03:35] Eli Harwood, welcome to A Little Bit Culty. It's on. Thank you. So good to be with you all.

[00:03:41] I first of all have to apologize for having to reschedule a bazillion times.

[00:03:45] If you weren't rescheduling a billion times, I'd question whether you really had children or not.

[00:03:49] Or a podcast for that matter. Or a podcast.

[00:03:51] Or trying to shine light on cult abuse. And it's just crazy. Well,

[00:03:56] it's just a crazy time of life anyway. But all the things, yes.

[00:03:59] All the things.

[00:04:00] Well, thank you for making time for us. For those of us in our audience who haven't heard of you yet,

[00:04:06] what's your elevator pitch for who you are, what you do, what you're all about?

[00:04:09] I would say I'm a mom. I'm a licensed therapist. I've been practicing for almost two decades. And

[00:04:13] in that time, my passion has been around looking at the attachment science. So how do our early

[00:04:18] relationships and our relationships with the people close to us affect how we develop,

[00:04:22] how we feel about ourselves, and how we engage the world? And so my mission is like,

[00:04:26] how can I take this information and make it accessible and digestible and help people use

[00:04:31] it in their real world to improve the relationships that matter most to them? Therefore, making the

[00:04:37] world a little more connected. Lola's crazy. Love it.

[00:04:39] So it's too late for you and I, Sarah.

[00:04:41] It might be too late. No, I actually found a lot of hope.

[00:04:45] Stuff for our kids, though.

[00:04:46] A lot of hope from your book.

[00:04:48] Thank you.

[00:04:48] You know, at first I was like, God, I wish I just had a podcast about parenting and life

[00:04:54] because there's all these other things I want to talk about. But really, there is

[00:04:56] so much to talk about in terms of attachment and cults and cultic abuse and abuse in general.

[00:05:01] So I know this is going to be-

[00:05:02] We'll hit all the things.

[00:05:03] We'll hit all the things.

[00:05:05] Yes. And my second book is coming out. So my first book, that book is like, hey,

[00:05:09] here's how you kind of might want to reflect on some of the attachment stuff that happened in

[00:05:13] your life, right? And we'll talk about kind of what that looks like. And then my second book is,

[00:05:17] and here's how you can prevent passing on all that insecure stuff that you inherited to your kids.

[00:05:23] So it's called Raising Securely Attached Kids, but it's not out till September.

[00:05:27] So you have to wait for it. So you have to do the workbook first, which is how this whole gig goes

[00:05:32] anyway.

[00:05:33] Yes. You got to do the work, but not the work in a culty way because almost all cults say you

[00:05:39] have to do the work.

[00:05:39] Right. Kabish. Kabish. Yes. Preach.

[00:05:40] So we have to be careful about that. We have to find another way of saying doing the work.

[00:05:43] Or we re-normalize it. We take it back.

[00:05:45] We take it back?

[00:05:45] Yeah.

[00:05:45] Re-claim it.

[00:05:46] Take back your life?

[00:05:47] Yeah.

[00:05:47] Re-claim it.

[00:05:48] I like it. Let's just reclaim it. The healing work. Oh, yeah. I felt this while reading your

[00:05:51] book, by the way. I was like, oh my gosh, the line between the languaging around healthy

[00:05:58] experiences and cultic experiences is so freaking tight. I'm a teacher. I teach, but I have no

[00:06:06] interest in making anyone my slave. But that's the language that gets used in cults. So I'm aware of

[00:06:13] even after just recently reading your book, almost feeling in my nervous system a little

[00:06:18] bit of discombobulation around which I would usually use in really healthy ways because

[00:06:24] I could see how it got hijacked in really manipulative ways.

[00:06:28] Yeah. And the thing that since we left, and it took me a while to figure this out, and

[00:06:32] Sarah can attest, the thing I got most sensitive to in our climate going on right now, wherever

[00:06:38] you lean politically, it's the use of language and words and how they're just repetition and

[00:06:43] meaning gets changed. I'm like, see, Sarah, it's right there. It's right there. It's all

[00:06:46] over the place. So I'm super sensitive to that. How language can be used to manipulate.

[00:06:50] And before we nerd out on all the definitions that you have, because I think it's important.

[00:06:56] Tools of thought. Yeah. You need those definitions. Just curious,

[00:07:00] because I know you just binged The Vow. Yes.

[00:07:03] How was that for you? And what are your initial thoughts in relation to your work?

[00:07:07] The initial thoughts could take us three hours, but it was really emotional for me.

[00:07:12] I feel very protective of you two. And just knowing I was about to come into spaces with

[00:07:17] you, I feel really protective. It led me to just walking through some of my own experiences. I

[00:07:23] would never, I wouldn't say I've ever been a cult, but I've definitely been in high control

[00:07:25] religion and I've been in an abusive intimate relationship. So just like listening to the

[00:07:31] story and feeling in my own body, the echoes of the way that abuse smells, feels, tastes,

[00:07:37] right? Like I definitely felt some connection. I called a dear friend who was in a cult that

[00:07:41] reminds me so much of NXIVM, except with a religious bent and just checked in on her.

[00:07:46] How are you doing? I haven't brought this up in a while. How are you? Like,

[00:07:50] I'm just so aware of this. And we chatted a little bit. She'd watched The Vow. So we were

[00:07:54] talking about her experience of watching it. It's tender, y'all. This is tender stuff.

[00:07:59] One of the things that I thought about a lot while watching it is how there's a lot of mythology

[00:08:05] around cults, meaning that we want to believe that the only person who could get sucked into

[00:08:12] a cult is someone who's really unwell and lacks core self. And I don't think that's true.

[00:08:18] I think that there's a brilliance in the manipulation of someone who's running a cult

[00:08:23] that they are able to find risk factors in anyone, people who are deeply wounded and

[00:08:30] people who are fairly secure. So we can talk more about that. And when I was watching,

[00:08:35] I was kind of, you know, I'm analyzing Keith as I'm watching, like, what's he doing? What's this

[00:08:40] about? What's happening in his theory of mind is a word we use in the attachment research.

[00:08:44] So like, how does his perspective on relationships create these dynamics? I don't know. Yeah,

[00:08:51] I could go on and on. Where'd you come up with? Okay. So in attachment research, what we have

[00:08:55] discovered is that the way that a caregiver interacts with a child sets a template and it

[00:09:02] set the template for several really important things. So one is how the child regulates their

[00:09:06] emotions, which therefore is affecting their brain development. So how safe does that child

[00:09:11] feel in that relationship? So if they're upset and they're sad, is there someone there being

[00:09:15] responsive and warm? Oh, hi, me. Is your diaper wet? Are you hungry? I'm here. I'm here. I got

[00:09:21] you. Right? That kind of synchronicity. Is there someone who is capable of coming in and connection

[00:09:26] and soothing? Right? Because if that's happening, then what's happening internally in the brain

[00:09:31] is my needs matter and I'm going to get what I need. And when I'm tender, I'm going to reach for

[00:09:36] my people because that's going to be a effective way to be soothed. But if I have caregivers who

[00:09:42] are themselves insecure in their attachment pattern, they might project meaning onto my

[00:09:49] emotions. Now, again, I just used the word meaning and I cannot get Keith Raniere out of

[00:09:53] my head now. I've got, you know, what does this mean to you? Oh, motherfucker. It means I feel

[00:09:58] unsafe with you. Anyway. Okay. Yeah. But so that meaning of the caregiver is getting imposed onto

[00:10:05] the child. So if the child is crying and the caregiver is like, you really need to learn to

[00:10:08] self-soothe. Right. And this is a three month old who doesn't have the prefrontal cortex in order

[00:10:12] to do that. But over time, the child learns when I am upset, no one's coming to help. They have to

[00:10:19] form a belief system about the world in order to cope with that. Right. And so that belief system

[00:10:25] might be I'm a burden. I'm too much. It also might be emotions are indulgent. Right. Only an integrated

[00:10:33] person is healthy and well, they've resolved all of their what do we call them in flaws and

[00:10:39] imperfections, whatever the language was. He fortifies his weaknesses. Yeah. So his at some

[00:10:45] point, I don't know what his story is, but at some point there's probably several factors. One,

[00:10:50] there's probably some genetic factor because not everybody is born into insecure experiences and

[00:10:56] then wants to have sex later. I hope not. They don't. So there's some genetic predisposition

[00:11:02] for whatever that was and is. But I think there's also some deficit in his experiences that led him

[00:11:08] to believe that the primary positive way he wanted to relate to other people is through dominance,

[00:11:15] control, power. And I see this as like abuse as a disease of the mind. It's inherited in

[00:11:22] relationship to others. My guess is that beyond there being some form of emotional neglect in

[00:11:27] his life, there was also some exposure to some kind of abuse. Do we know any of this?

[00:11:31] We have some speculation that a lot of it's his telling. Yeah. But the women are and also from

[00:11:36] the women around him that knew him, but we also don't know. What we do know from schoolmates,

[00:11:40] which I think are probably the less, it's not from his words to them, it's from their perceptions of

[00:11:46] him is that he was like super, like he was super nerdy and at some point got some assessment that

[00:11:52] he was quite intelligent. And then that sort of boosted his grandiosity. Yeah. His grandiosity

[00:11:58] and esteem and started to actually manipulate people around him at a young age. And was also

[00:12:04] sexually active at a young age. And according to his dad, I believe, who told someone that we know

[00:12:10] because this is such hearsay, but that he was like stringing women along from the age of like 11.

[00:12:16] Like he heard him on the phone saying like, you're the only one and I love you the most.

[00:12:20] I love you so much. But like with multiple girls, like preteens, like young women.

[00:12:24] But we also have heard that and also from his mouth, but his mother was very sick

[00:12:29] and he had to take care of her. And also that the dad left, he was like a madman,

[00:12:33] like in advertising in New York and wasn't around. So he was mostly him and his mom.

[00:12:39] Some of the theories are just like massive resentment towards his mom, never didn't have

[00:12:43] proper attachment or attunement with either. That's sort of the theory. I would be curious about like

[00:12:49] sexual abuse at some point. Somehow he learned that the way to cope with his vulnerability in life

[00:12:56] was to find other people to dominate. And so relating is not mutual and vulnerable

[00:13:03] and co-regulatory. It's strategic. He relates strategically. He's thinking about how he can

[00:13:11] get to a position that makes him feel less vulnerable, that makes him feel regulated.

[00:13:16] And he only feels regulated when he is exalted. You said in there, he wanted us to worship him.

[00:13:23] Yeah. I did a lot of this while I was watching. For us too, especially because a lot of the

[00:13:27] behind the scenes stuff we didn't see. Right. It wasn't our... Yeah. After a few episodes,

[00:13:32] we were spectators. Yeah. You know, like his home, we didn't have that view. You don't know

[00:13:36] all of those things. Like you don't know what's happening behind the scenes and yeah. So yeah.

[00:13:41] So his theory of mind in relationships is highly disturbed. It is not about mutuality and wanting

[00:13:48] to cultivate a bond or a connection that ultimately leads to both people being free.

[00:13:55] Right? There's no freedom in that. Like he had a goal and his goal was control. That was his goal.

[00:14:01] And he used sex for control and he used intellect for control and he used charm. Although I can't

[00:14:09] say I felt very charmed by him. Sometimes cult leaders are very charming. Did you feel charmed

[00:14:14] by him? I think you did. Okay. Charm wasn't the word I would say, and this is actually a note

[00:14:19] that I took because at the end of the book, you were talking about like the mirror neurons and

[00:14:24] develop learning to, like even with your kids, like playing with them at their level and matching

[00:14:28] and the empathy and all that stuff, which I was aware of, but I hadn't put the piece together

[00:14:31] about Keith was really good and was known for his, what they called an axiom rapport skills.

[00:14:36] It was even a class that they taught like a neuro-linguistic programming teaches rapport.

[00:14:40] So I think what people felt drawn to, and I certainly did at certain times, he was good

[00:14:45] at the witness and was when you, he was with you, he was very with you. And that goes into like the

[00:14:51] eye gazing and like things that other leaders are known for like that, that deep felt like

[00:14:55] connection, but really he was, he was being strategic. Yeah. He's being strategic. So

[00:14:59] when this is where it's not the words messed up. Yeah. It was directed at women. Yeah. Even like

[00:15:04] when I was interfacing with him in meetings, he always felt distracted by not side. I always looked

[00:15:09] at it was like a, what a woman was doing or what Intel he could get on a woman and under the guys

[00:15:14] that he was helping them. I think that's what he was totally dialed into. Cause I remember standing

[00:15:18] with him and other people would walk in and break rapport with me to see who came in. And he never

[00:15:23] really did that probably with women, although I wasn't privy to, but I didn't feel like he ever

[00:15:28] locked in with me. I think he directed it at women. Yeah. I think you're right. Cause his

[00:15:31] ultimate goal was to create this harem of sex slaves. Right? Yeah. Otherwise I would have been

[00:15:35] hurt more. I would have been more traumatized. I wasn't targeted in that way. I also do you

[00:15:40] think that's interesting, Sarah? Like it doesn't seem like he also targeted you at the same level.

[00:15:45] He was targeting a lot of the other women in the cult. Tell that theory. Well, I, I think by the

[00:15:49] time I wrote the book, I didn't have all the information I have now. And what I've since

[00:15:53] learned is that he doesn't target like, Hey, let's go for coffee or let's get to know each

[00:15:58] other. He would get somebody else to invite the woman we've learned this from other women who

[00:16:03] did get closer to start a business, be involved in certain project. And that would bring them

[00:16:09] closer to him, either spend a chunk of time in Albany, be there more. And then he would slowly

[00:16:14] move in as like overseeing that project, coaching the person directly. And then it was like eight

[00:16:19] steps before he made the move. And he did that with me. Like I was invited to five or six different

[00:16:25] projects, businesses that I just didn't move on because many of them involved moving to Albany.

[00:16:30] And I didn't want to do that or inside. I thought those are really dumb business ideas.

[00:16:34] I'm not going to do that. I think you had a protective factor there, like just reading

[00:16:38] the book of you had, you have a little bit of like a, just listening to you going, what the

[00:16:43] fuck? Or like, no, there was just enough there. Or when he invited you for the middle of the night

[00:16:48] walk and you had the audition when you're like, no, I'm going to my audition. Yeah, exactly.

[00:16:56] What were your health boundaries? And I got in trouble for that.

[00:16:58] Healthy boundaries. Yes.

[00:17:00] I did have healthier boundaries. But I think he also saw you as,

[00:17:03] okay, well, if not you, your network. Yeah. I think at a certain point he,

[00:17:07] because I never got majorly gaslit or messed with like some of the other women. I think it's

[00:17:11] because it was just tapping my network. I also don't think you had the same

[00:17:14] risk factors they did. Right.

[00:17:16] What did you notice? I'm curious. Yeah. So, okay. So if we're thinking about

[00:17:20] attachment in a secure experience, someone is growing up, they're feeling belonging in

[00:17:25] their relationships. They're feeling like their needs will be met that the developmental

[00:17:30] experience is really deeply grounding, right? There's variants in insecure experiences. So

[00:17:38] you can have an insecure experience where a caregiver or caregivers are able to do that

[00:17:43] sometimes, but then not always. So maybe they have a mood disorder. And so like when they're

[00:17:47] really depressed, they can't be very responsive, but when they're in a good place and they're,

[00:17:52] whatever they can or whatever. So there's an experience of sometimes I get what I need.

[00:17:56] I'm not, and we would call that like a resistant or an ambivalent experience, which is this.

[00:18:01] The child learns to be hyper vigilant of the caregiver because they know that the caregiver

[00:18:06] can give them what they need emotionally sometimes, but not always. And so they become

[00:18:11] preoccupied with that caregiver and their, and this is, I think your general style, Sarah.

[00:18:17] Yeah. You know, you had some,

[00:18:19] like your parents were loving figures who wanted to give you care and they did their very best

[00:18:25] based on their level of regulation, right? That's very true.

[00:18:29] But it wasn't always there. And so there was a level of unpredictability that led you to become

[00:18:34] pretty focused on the people you have close caregiving relationships with, right? But there

[00:18:39] is still within you a sense that there's a care that can happen in relationships. Like you have

[00:18:46] that embedded in your nervous system. In an avoidant experience, there is a caregiver who is

[00:18:52] unable to be emotionally responsive and soothing. So they might be so dismissive in their mindset

[00:18:59] that when a child is upset, they ignore it or completely. And the pattern is that. So they are

[00:19:05] consistently disconnected. Okay. And that child doesn't have any hope that they're going to be

[00:19:11] able to get their caregiver to give them what they need. So they, their coping pattern is to

[00:19:15] distract themselves during moments of distress. So you learned how to scan and how to try to maybe

[00:19:23] even perform. How can I be good? How can I do the thing in order to get my needs met?

[00:19:27] Yes.

[00:19:27] There was still, there's an active engagement in like, how can I get close to someone who has an

[00:19:33] avoidant experience? They have deactivated their reach for others in those moments because it's too

[00:19:40] painful to reach for a parent who's going to dismiss you every time. It's also too painful

[00:19:44] to reach for a parent who's going to be so anxious that they flood you with their anxiety

[00:19:49] when you're in a state of distress. So an avoidant child versus a resistant child,

[00:19:55] they're both insecure experiences, but there's different levels of having experienced love and

[00:20:00] care. Okay. Then on the last end of the patterns, we have four patterns. The fourth pattern,

[00:20:06] we would consider a disorganized experience. And in this experience, caregivers have been the source

[00:20:12] of fear. So caregivers have acted in ways that are erratic and great. So you imagine you're a

[00:20:17] little bean, you're a little bug, and you feel scared and you have an instinct to go to your

[00:20:22] caregiver to get regulated and to feel safe. But your caregiver is so unwell that they also

[00:20:27] are scary for you. So there's a saber-toothed tiger, but my option for refuge is a grizzly bear.

[00:20:33] You can see how that discombobulates someone's sense of attachment and relationships.

[00:20:38] So rather than having a strategy, the avoidant child has a strategy. The resistant child has a

[00:20:44] strategy. I'm going to scan, I'm going to be hypervigilant, I'm going to watch everything

[00:20:46] you do, and I'm going to try to be cute and lovely for you so that you'll love me.

[00:20:49] The avoidant child is like, I'm going to just swallow it all in. I'm just going to keep it

[00:20:52] inside because it's just better to keep it inside than whatever you're going to do with it.

[00:20:55] The disorganized child is left without a strategy because there's no one really to go to. And so

[00:21:00] what happens instead is they enter trauma state. They get disassociated or they get reactive.

[00:21:06] Right? And in the context of NXIVM, you had all sorts of different experiences of attachment.

[00:21:13] Folks coming in who had, I do think maybe even had secure attachment. I'm curious about India

[00:21:20] because her mom had a pretty healthy process from what I could tell in the documentary. A very

[00:21:27] differentiated sense of wanting to help her daughter but not taking it personally, being

[00:21:32] very grounded in herself. So India may have had some secure experience, I don't know, or maybe it

[00:21:37] was more like your Sarah. But I was watching everybody and I was thinking, I think the people

[00:21:41] who were closest to him probably had more avoidant experiences or disorganized experiences because

[00:21:48] what they felt when he gave him that withness was so profound to them, they'd never experienced it.

[00:21:55] Yes.

[00:21:55] And so I think that was such a higher risk factor, both for getting stuck

[00:22:01] deeper into the inner circle and also for feeling stuck there.

[00:22:04] Yes.

[00:22:04] Because if you've never had that before, it's intoxicating. It can be alluring to anybody.

[00:22:11] That's why I say that. I think that you can be manipulated into a cult even if you are a very

[00:22:15] healthy person depending on what your community is like at that moment, what your sense of self,

[00:22:21] like your main vulnerability was like your career feeling vulnerable, right?

[00:22:24] And also wanting community and the support that would give me.

[00:22:29] Us, we're wired for attachment. We're also wired for community.

[00:22:32] Human beings have survived as long as we have because of our ability to work together. So

[00:22:36] the abusive person is playing on those instincts in us, those very wise instincts to bond with

[00:22:43] people and to feel seen and heard and mirrored and also to have belonging and to be in community.

[00:22:50] And what you don't know on that onset is that it's not what's being presented. You don't know

[00:22:56] that. The languaging is so lovely. I always tell people like, man, if I had been around,

[00:23:00] around Jonestown, it was the first integrated church in America. You know that?

[00:23:04] Right. Yeah.

[00:23:05] I would have vibed that shit. I would have been like, yes, we're doing this thing. This is right.

[00:23:10] Yeah.

[00:23:11] Have you heard the boiling frog analogy? I'm sure you have.

[00:23:13] Oh yeah. We use it all the time. Yeah.

[00:23:15] Yeah.

[00:23:15] As a doxmanology.

[00:23:17] Steady diet of frogs over here.

[00:23:23] This podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons.

[00:23:27] Are you with us? Come find us over on Patreon at patreon.com slash a littlebitculti for bonus

[00:23:33] episodes, exclusive content, and the occasional Zoom with our fan favorites from our past episodes.

[00:23:39] It's a lot of fun over there, people.

[00:23:50] Well, dear culti listeners, summer is officially here and hallelujah, the days are getting longer,

[00:23:55] but the kicker is all that extra sun can get in the way of your sleep cycle. As you know,

[00:24:00] Nipi and I are big on good sleep in this house, which is why we are so excited to partner with

[00:24:06] Via Hemp. Trusted by over 250,000 customers, Via Hemp's products are kind of like the Swiss

[00:24:12] army knife of wellness, super useful. We personally love their rest and recovery line of gummies,

[00:24:19] offering a unique blend of passionflower, L-theanine, and cannabinoids to promote sleep,

[00:24:24] pain relief, and relaxation for some daily tranquility. And with both THC and THC-free

[00:24:30] gummies, Via has a dosage to encourage your comfort, restore your routine, and live your

[00:24:35] most well-rested life with the support of Via. Via also offers a wide array of other gummies

[00:24:41] with and without THC, ranging from zero to 100 milligrams. Whether you're a two milligrammer

[00:24:47] like me or a 50 milligram user looking to potentially improve your sleep, focus,

[00:24:51] or recovery, Via has something for you. You can shop through their website by strength and effect.

[00:24:57] And the best part, Via legally ships to all 50 states in discreet packaging directly to your door

[00:25:02] with a worry-free guarantee, no medical card required. You know I love my gummies. So if

[00:25:08] you're 21 plus, you can get 15% off and a free pack of award-winning gummies with our exclusive

[00:25:14] code, culti, at viahemp.com, V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P.com. Nipi and I like different dosages, but we both

[00:25:23] agree that sleep is A plus when we've had our Via. So head to viahemp.com and use the code

[00:25:30] culti to receive 15% off and one free sample of their award-winning gummies, 21 plus. That's

[00:25:36] V-I-I-A, hemp.com, and use code culti at checkout. Please do support our show and tell them we sent

[00:25:42] you and enhance your everyday with Via Hemp. Enjoy. In Puerto Rico, we call ourselves Boricua.

[00:25:51] We're proud, passionate, and full of life. On our island, adventure finds you. Strangers

[00:26:01] aren't strangers for long. The size of the audience doesn't change the beauty of the music

[00:26:07] and we celebrate every last ray of sun. Live Boricua. You've heard from our sponsors. Now,

[00:26:24] let's get back to a little bit culti, shall we? What you just put into words was what I've said

[00:26:37] in a very non-precise, non-academic, non-expert way, just from viewing the women that I knew

[00:26:43] pretty well, I thought, even though they weren't sharing who they were sleeping with with me,

[00:26:47] but they all had what I would just call like dad issues or father issues. Like,

[00:26:50] they didn't have strong relationships with their dads and I totally was like,

[00:26:54] oh my God, Keith is filling that void without all the other scientific things you just said.

[00:26:58] You know, my dad and I do have a really solid relationship. He's wonderful. And me and my mom

[00:27:02] as well. But I did, like, they did divorce when I was young, which you probably read in the book

[00:27:06] and how you're able to piece those things together, even though they, yeah, they were super loving.

[00:27:10] And I'm saying this to be clear because I know they both listen to the podcast. They were amazing

[00:27:15] parents. But my childhood was a little bit fraught at a young age and I felt very split and

[00:27:22] it was confusing and they know that and I don't blame them and I love them, just to be clear.

[00:27:25] Caveat. Okay.

[00:27:26] Two things can be true at the same time. It can be true that our caregiver did the

[00:27:29] very best they could and that in that there was something they couldn't control. I'm so prepped

[00:27:35] for the conversation later on in life when my kids come to me and they're like, this part of our

[00:27:39] lives was hard and didn't feel good or I don't know, it was weird to have a mom who was like

[00:27:43] a parenting influencer. Duh, that's weird. They're going to have feelings about that and

[00:27:48] it's okay. That's okay. That's part of the goal. And my hope is that they can

[00:27:52] take what I've given and make it better. And in order to do that,

[00:27:55] they have to evaluate what wasn't great about it or what could have been better.

[00:27:58] Can I call you when Troy's like, it was really weird to have parents who were,

[00:28:02] you know, call it busters? Yeah. Okay, great. Because that's going to happen.

[00:28:06] So far he's so far, he seems really proud, but I'm afraid it's going to bite him in the butt

[00:28:10] one day and then he'll. He'll have negative feelings about it,

[00:28:13] but he also has shelter in you all relationally. There's a sense of like, I have a place where I

[00:28:18] can go and be seen and known and be messy and not get shamed or punished for being messy.

[00:28:24] That there's a lot to be said for the elasticity of a secure relationship.

[00:28:28] It's like we all feel that it's like you love someone and they can't be too structured.

[00:28:32] Yeah. Nippy, I don't know much about your growing up and attachment. Tell us a little bit about

[00:28:37] what you think were your risk factors and how you got played upon.

[00:28:43] Let's do that. But there's one thing I want to, I want to say, because you were describing Keith

[00:28:46] and how he looks at everyone else. It just hit me like, but it hit me a different language for it.

[00:28:51] Like he's playing a different game with a different set of rules and everyone else is

[00:28:56] playing on the, I want to see my goals. I want to see my attachments. I want to see community,

[00:29:01] all the things that are natural. He knows our rules and how to navigate them. He knows he's

[00:29:04] not playing by them. He's not restricted by them. He's using them. He's brilliantly using

[00:29:09] them. He knows what it is you're doing. It's ironic because he understands and he doesn't

[00:29:13] understand. He understands on a strategic level. He obviously doesn't understand on a core human

[00:29:17] level, which is like very obvious. But he knows how to manipulate your drive to have community,

[00:29:25] your drive to be a part of making the world a better place to have, you know, your drive to

[00:29:30] have deeply intimate, close relationships where you're seen, heard and felt. He knows how to use

[00:29:36] those things to his advantage and to, and I thought was interesting. One of the things you said,

[00:29:41] Sarah, in there about how sometimes he would talk at such a level that you think he intentionally

[00:29:46] made it hard for people to understand what he was saying so that everyone would be like, wow.

[00:29:50] And they're word solid.

[00:29:52] Yeah, word solid. Yep. Like what is that? And I absolutely felt that watching him. I'm like,

[00:29:56] obviously I'm going in already having a knowledge of who he is because you've blown the whistle

[00:30:01] like this motherfucker. And I was like, no shit. He just knows it's how to manipulate

[00:30:07] the earnestness of other people. I don't know how smart he is. I'd be very curious to really

[00:30:11] get him an actual IQ test, but for sure he's astoundingly adept at manipulating the earnest

[00:30:20] desires that people bring to him or around. Absolutely. With zero care.

[00:30:24] Zero care. I just had one other thought and also going back to what we were saying earlier

[00:30:28] about the words and changing of words, especially with your area of expertise in NXIVM, it was

[00:30:36] bad to have an attachment. If you wanted something, if you desired something outside of a basic need,

[00:30:44] outside of food and shelter and blah, blah, blah, it was an a desire. You have an attachment.

[00:30:50] It's a weakness.

[00:30:52] You want to be an actor. You want to build a community. Why? What's missing in you that

[00:30:56] you think you need that? Such classic manipulative abuse. He's flipping the script. He's taking

[00:31:02] the things that are your strengths that would actually help you to be empowered in the world,

[00:31:09] and he's placing meaning on it that disempowers those things in order to continue to link you more

[00:31:16] to him and his agenda. And also promising, if you evolve your attachment, you'll get it,

[00:31:24] but you can't actually be attached to your attachment. It's like a twisting of Buddhism,

[00:31:28] too. We have to talk about that part of our whole weird connection, too, through all of this at some

[00:31:32] point in the dialogue. That's bizarre. Yes. Okay, so, Epi, would you be willing to share a little

[00:31:36] bit about your story in terms of what you think were the risk factors? Yeah. I'll give you a

[00:31:42] self-diagnosis, and then I guess the way I'm best is just ask me questions. I'm pretty good at

[00:31:47] putting language to it. So, I'd say... I was joking with Sarah this morning. My dad's kind of like

[00:31:52] Clint Eastwood. I grew up in a house. And the goods and bads of Clint Eastwood, right? Obviously

[00:31:58] not Dirty Harry, but all my friends were like, your dad looks like Clint Eastwood. Every one of

[00:32:05] my girlfriends and my brother's girlfriends separately made the connection like, your dad

[00:32:10] looks like Clint Eastwood. How interesting. It's very interesting, yeah. And so, he's an architect.

[00:32:16] I'm one of five, four boys. And I guess... I don't know how would you put it? He put pressure on us

[00:32:23] to perform. We were all good athletes, all average students, but it was just pressure to perform.

[00:32:29] And I got a lot of my self-esteem. The gift he knew to give you was some form of mastery

[00:32:36] in performance, right? So, you're gonna suck it up and you're gonna do the thing and you're

[00:32:41] gonna get good at it and you're gonna go after it. There's no crying in baseball,

[00:32:45] that kind of vibe. Yeah. And it worked. College football. That's amazing. We all did. And we had fun.

[00:32:54] And it was made fun. And it was where we related. We watched games. And then the flip side of that

[00:33:00] is when I was a kid, we lived in Rome, Italy. My dad's architecture brought him over there for a year.

[00:33:04] And we went around, saw the Sistine Chapel and saw every Renaissance kind of thing. And my dad

[00:33:09] walked me through it and talked to me about it. I think art is his sustenance. And so, we bonded over

[00:33:14] like our favorite artist together is Caravaggio. That sounds amazing. And we got to see the

[00:33:18] Sistine Chapel as an early age. So, it had that kind of thing. I'd say my mom on another flip

[00:33:24] side of it is her dad died when she was nine. I figured out... I remember the day I figured out.

[00:33:31] That's a hard thing to say. I wouldn't say that it was as strong as I didn't need her.

[00:33:35] But I remember she was trying to help me with homework at like a third, fourth grade level.

[00:33:39] And she was kind of go, oh. I had this awareness of, oh, my mom's not traditionally educated.

[00:33:45] Right? Does that make sense? Yes. Absolutely. So, based on my standards and practices as a kid,

[00:33:51] that meant something to me. That meant like she was inferior or like... Because my dad's high

[00:33:56] intellect, went to Georgia Tech, architect, went to Harvard. So, my dad became the most pragmatic

[00:34:02] person for me to follow and listen to at that point. Maybe not when it was the best, right?

[00:34:07] He became the authority. And so, my mom was also an alcoholic. So, then there was other aspects to

[00:34:12] it where like I just recognized, okay, I love her. She can't.

[00:34:16] She can't. I think I saw her capacity level emotionally at an early age. It freaked me out.

[00:34:21] But I still had a solid upbringing. Didn't need anything. Went to great schools. Had a dad who

[00:34:26] I could go talk to. I could consult with. But on an emotional level, there wasn't a whole lot of

[00:34:32] talk about it. When I did run into something when I was around 19, 18, 19 years old with a girlfriend,

[00:34:38] I had a really hard breakup. There was no outlet for me. In fact, when I brought certain things

[00:34:44] to the table, it was made fun of and be like, oh, newbies in love. Little things like that,

[00:34:49] that at the time I dismissed, but there was just nothing for me. Also, I'm like trapped in this

[00:34:54] athlete's body where I'm not supposed to have that. That was my first traumatic event, 19,

[00:34:59] 20 years old. And I didn't have... I had a tool for everything, but that just wasn't in there

[00:35:04] and I had to go do that alone. That made my heart so sad for younger you.

[00:35:09] It made mine sad for about a year at least. It was hard. It was really hard. It affected how

[00:35:15] I was as an athlete. I didn't know that at the time. I had it so compartmentalized and was just

[00:35:20] push, push through it. The limitations of my parenting's capacity yielded its head and heart

[00:35:26] break because I didn't have a girlfriend that... Did you see your sweet wife crying on behalf of

[00:35:30] your 20-year-old? Yes, I did. It's the sweetest thing ever. We've had this conversation. I know,

[00:35:34] but that's the right reaction. That's like the tender hearted... That's why we're together.

[00:35:39] I love it so much. I love that. I would describe what you've said as a pretty typical,

[00:35:46] traditional avoidant experience. Your first traumatic experience was actually much younger.

[00:35:52] It was being in a one-year-old body or a six-month-old body and maybe a two-year-old

[00:35:59] body. I don't know. And there not being anyone who could help you with your tender emotion

[00:36:03] and at a very young age. From the research we know, even children as young as 12 months of age,

[00:36:10] if there is no one who is emotionally capable of being responsive and present and soothing,

[00:36:16] learn to shut it all down, suck it all in and to distract and avoid. And so that happened to you

[00:36:22] long before you have memory because clearly neither one of your parents could do that realm.

[00:36:28] So your mom couldn't do a lot of even the functioning kind of stuff. Your dad functioned

[00:36:35] brilliantly. So you could get that. And you got that sense of a guide. He could guide you,

[00:36:41] but you didn't have anyone who could hold you, who could feel your feeling states with you

[00:36:49] and be with you in that and give you that mirroring and give you that support,

[00:36:52] which I know y'all are giving to your boys now. Yeah, ad nauseum.

[00:36:56] You spoke it right to the degree where you're like, is this okay? Are they going to be okay?

[00:37:06] For more background on what brought us here, check out my page-turning memoir. It's called

[00:37:10] The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life. It's available on Amazon,

[00:37:15] Audible and at most bookstores. And if you want to see that story in streaming form,

[00:37:19] you can watch both seasons of The Vow on HBO. Well, dear culty listeners, summer is officially

[00:37:29] here and hallelujah, the days are getting longer, but the kicker is all that extra sun can get in

[00:37:34] the way of your sleep cycle. As you know, Nippy and I are big on good sleep in this house, which

[00:37:40] is why we are so excited to partner with Via Hemp. Trusted by over 250,000 customers, Via Hemp's

[00:37:47] products are kind of like the Swiss army knife of wellness, super useful. We personally love

[00:37:53] their rest and recovery line of gummies offering a unique blend of passionflower, L-theanine

[00:37:58] and cannabinoids to promote sleep, pain relief and relaxation for some daily tranquility. And

[00:38:04] with both THC and THC-free gummies, Via has a dosage to encourage your comfort, restore your

[00:38:10] routine and live your most well-rested life with the support of Via. Via also offers a wide array

[00:38:16] of other gummies with and without THC ranging from zero to a hundred milligrams. Whether you're

[00:38:22] a two milligrammer like me or a 50 milligram user looking to potentially improve your sleep, focus

[00:38:27] or recovery, Via has something for you. You can shop through their website by strength and effect.

[00:38:33] And the best part, Via legally ships to all 50 states in discreet packaging directly to your door

[00:38:38] with a worry-free guarantee. No medical card required. You know I love my gummies. So if you're

[00:38:44] 21 plus, you can get 15% off and a free pack of award-winning gummies with our exclusive code

[00:38:50] culti at viahemp.com. V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P.com. Nippy and I like different dosages, but we both agree that

[00:39:00] sleep is A plus when we've had our Via. So head to viahemp.com and use the code culti to receive

[00:39:07] 15% off and one free sample of their award-winning gummies, 21 plus. That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P.com

[00:39:14] and use code culti at checkout. Please do support our show and tell them we sent you and enhance

[00:39:19] your everyday with Via Hemp. Enjoy. In Puerto Rico, we call ourselves Boricua.

[00:39:27] We are proud, passionate, and full of life. On our island, adventure finds you. Strangers

[00:39:37] aren't strangers for long. The size of the audience doesn't change the beauty of the music

[00:39:44] and we celebrate every last ray of sun. Live Boricua. Break time's over people. Let's get

[00:39:58] back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty. It's a good one. So then you come into this experience

[00:40:07] and what was it that, what were, what was the moment or the moments or was it the idea? What

[00:40:13] was it that you think brought you in to the fold? The girl who broke my heart. What? And I say the

[00:40:21] girl in air quotes. She was the person that shared it with me. I ran into her at a party

[00:40:25] in New York. I leave her name out. I protect her. I don't. Absolutely. I really not, I'd really like

[00:40:30] to leave her out of it as much as possible. Yes. But, or and she was the one who told me about

[00:40:36] this thing and like a year later. Okay. I'm just want to make sure I'm getting all this because

[00:40:40] this is crazy. So you're in your twenties and you fall in love and then she breaks your heart. And

[00:40:45] then what, what amount of time passes? So probably like three years. Was she your high school

[00:40:50] girlfriend? She's my high school girlfriend. And then I go to college and like it was still,

[00:40:53] was there. Of course you're this little kid who exists in avoidance forever. And then you have

[00:40:58] your first love and there's this sense of being known and felt and in sync with someone and your

[00:41:02] body is like, I was made for this is so good. And then they break your heart. Right? Oh,

[00:41:08] I'm still mad at her by the way. It's not her. Like she's a person too. She has nothing to do

[00:41:12] with it. It's just, she's not in trouble. She's not in trouble. She's not in trouble. Anyway,

[00:41:17] I run into her in New York city at a party and she tells me she did this thing. There's a couple

[00:41:23] of interactions before that, but this is the gist of like, Hey, I did this thing. And I was like,

[00:41:27] cool story. She needed it because she had just gotten divorced. And I was, that was my mindset.

[00:41:32] That's how I minimized it. And I was like, good for you. Great. Glad you got your life back on.

[00:41:37] Was like hoping we might have something going on, but I was also in New York and she was

[00:41:41] outside of New York and then she stayed on me. As we do. I was going to say, yeah.

[00:41:47] Poor building was happening. Yeah. Also like, this is how it happens. So when we dated,

[00:41:52] like I had books around me, like Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. I had

[00:41:56] biographies on Michael Jordan, John Elway, people that were athletes. And I was just reading about,

[00:42:01] I was interested. That was, I had a goal set mindset and that's what the curriculum espoused.

[00:42:07] Right? So she comes to me and like make a list of people that you know, and she's in contact with

[00:42:12] me, my old high school boyfriend, like this, he would love this stuff. He loves goal setting.

[00:42:16] So there's that component, but there's also like, she wants to build her network.

[00:42:19] Well, and like when you're thinking strategically in that you're going,

[00:42:23] I want to bring this to other people. I recruited a lot of people into religious settings. So I,

[00:42:28] it wasn't necessarily an old, but I did that even as a kid, I did that as like a junior high

[00:42:33] student. So I get that mentality where you're like, yeah, who connects with me? Who trusts me?

[00:42:37] Who could I help motivate into this space for the betterment of their life? And also

[00:42:41] then I get more recruits. Right. Or like, there's this like, so yeah, of course she's

[00:42:46] thinking of you because you had a deep connection. Yeah. And I didn't fault her for that. I just felt

[00:42:51] like anyone who says they have the answer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like it was just all the

[00:42:55] normal red flags you would have to someone who went off and did something like that.

[00:42:59] And about a year later, she, she got me with something. I just finished shooting an independent

[00:43:03] film. And every time I did a project that I felt like yielded me a little bit of money or was a,

[00:43:09] I felt like was a good step for me in my career. I did something like take a trip,

[00:43:14] go see a friend. Like I would like reward myself. Like if I had something that paid

[00:43:18] like five grand, I'd go, you know what? I earned this. I'm going to go see a friend in California,

[00:43:21] blah, blah, blah. I'd always do something like that. And she called me in the last day of filming

[00:43:27] this independent film serendipitously. And she's like, Hey, I put a deposit down for,

[00:43:31] that's what it was. I put a deposit down with like 250 bucks a year earlier and never done it.

[00:43:37] And she was calling me to say, Hey, look, we're taking your deposit. She was a little bit angry.

[00:43:40] And because I still had a hook, her anger actually was one of the things that made me reconsider.

[00:43:46] And so, and she says to me, you're just going to go out to LA and party with your friends

[00:43:50] and drink. And I was like, and she like said something about my goals. And I was like,

[00:43:54] I go, she's fucking right. I'm going out to California. Cause I'm going to go

[00:43:58] drink and try and chase girls for like whatever. And that's not in line with like.

[00:44:01] What I actually want.

[00:44:03] What I'm actually wanting, what I'm doing. And she reminded me of that.

[00:44:06] And I got the phone and I called, I called her back. I go, okay. When's the next one? I'm there.

[00:44:12] And I was still interested in her. Right.

[00:44:15] Right.

[00:44:15] And like she told me her mom had done her, I'd known her parents since I was 15. So it's like

[00:44:21] her parents had done it. And then when she also said her dad had done it, I was like, your dad

[00:44:25] did it? Her dad's a brain surgeon. Went to Yale. Like, like there's a template, there's a formula.

[00:44:31] I was like, okay, there's credibility there. Like there was so many variables. I almost didn't have

[00:44:35] a chance. Like if she was going to stay on me for a year and a half, like you were going to get

[00:44:39] me at some point. Right. Cause I ultimately trusted her too.

[00:44:43] If you had like met someone else at that point and like fallen in love with them,

[00:44:47] that would have been a protective factor because that person would have been maybe, but maybe not.

[00:44:50] I mean, it all depends.

[00:44:51] No, no, no. You're a hundred percent right.

[00:44:53] But at that point in your life, you're still single. She's still the person you feel the

[00:44:56] most like connected and attached to. And you are in a stage of development where you're needing

[00:45:02] to make some choices like where the rubber meets the road. And she's one of the rare people in your

[00:45:07] life who's willing to speak that truth to you. Right. Which is a problem in our culture. Right.

[00:45:11] We're not all willing to speak truth. So then when someone is out here, you know,

[00:45:14] I know and I get in trouble for that.

[00:45:15] Bums were like, no.

[00:45:17] I get in trouble for that. Sarah's always reeling me in. She's like, no you can't.

[00:45:21] I'm like, this is a new group of people.

[00:45:22] I was like, if that's the fucking truth, why do I have to yield to their version of the world?

[00:45:26] Just dial it back a little bit.

[00:45:27] She's like, well, you don't have to be.

[00:45:28] Just for this group of people.

[00:45:29] I was like, no, I can't. I'm fine. I'm going to be quiet. I'm going to be boring.

[00:45:35] I think both of you have some incredible protective factors in terms of like you

[00:45:39] both have strong personalities. You both have lots of opinion. I think that's huge.

[00:45:45] Like I think some of the folks, you know, just watching the film, I mean,

[00:45:48] I want to be gentle in terms of just like interpreting people I've never met also.

[00:45:52] Like that doesn't feel so random there. But I was watching just, I think the people who

[00:45:57] were the least protected in that environment, it was in their nature to be more of an appeasing

[00:46:03] personality. Right? Like that kind of like more of a people pleaser.

[00:46:08] Which I also am. I actually am less so now, but I people pleased strategically, I think,

[00:46:13] subconsciously.

[00:46:14] I don't think it's disingenuous. It's just you use it in that domain as well. Right?

[00:46:18] But you're also very strong. I don't know. You have a strength to you.

[00:46:22] And authentic. It's true.

[00:46:24] Oh yeah. No, it's definitely true.

[00:46:25] I can vouch for it.

[00:46:26] I can feel it. It's there. But I think as females, all of us have been hard

[00:46:30] trained to people please to some degree. Right? We've learned that in culture because

[00:46:35] we talk about attachment, but gender also affects attachment. What we're being taught

[00:46:40] by our caregivers about our role in the world based on our sex and based on our gender identity.

[00:46:45] So I know very few women who don't have some level of people pleasing.

[00:46:49] Who would be smart to as well.

[00:46:50] Okay. Since Pam has passed away, maybe we talk about Pam.

[00:46:53] Her personality, tell me if this is wrong, but she feels far more like someone who really hurt.

[00:47:01] Almost like she's like, Oh, someone's taking the lead. This feels so good.

[00:47:05] Like there's it's more of a circumspect hardwiring maybe in her.

[00:47:09] I have no idea really who she is because he found her so young.

[00:47:14] I can give you some intel, but explain what you mean by that.

[00:47:18] So we all have temperaments. Okay. So our attachment patterns are about

[00:47:22] how we cope with our tender needs and our distress in relationships. That's what attachment

[00:47:26] and attachment is relationally driven. It's not inborn. Okay. So we all have the drive

[00:47:31] for attachment, but what happens in our attachment patterns is based on what our caregivers do with

[00:47:35] us and how we then don't do right. Or don't do. Yeah. But we have a temperament like our

[00:47:41] personality, right? I've got three kids. They're all so different. Right. And they come out of the

[00:47:46] womb that way. And you can feel that in your kid. I mean, I felt them in my womb different.

[00:47:50] I'd be like, what is this? I twins so I could feel the difference of them in my womb. Like it's wild.

[00:47:57] That's nuts. It is nuts. But so I joke with my twins that one of them she's, she is hardwired

[00:48:04] to give you the shirt off of her back. She is just, I mean, I would say she probably has a

[00:48:09] little bit more of that Pam personality. Like she just wants to be in harmony with people.

[00:48:14] I think she's like that as a toddler. She'd be playing with something. Another kid would be like,

[00:48:18] can I come to grab it? And she'd be like, here you go. And she just played with something else.

[00:48:23] And then her sister is hardwired to knife you for the shirt on your back. It was like, she is just

[00:48:31] so strong willed and they're both obviously so much more nuanced than this, but truly like there's

[00:48:37] something different in their temperament ilk. And I think so there's a vulnerability in that as well.

[00:48:43] And I would say, Sarah, one of the things I don't see in you is that you are, you're,

[00:48:48] you have a mix of things like you're highly relational. You want to connect. You want to

[00:48:53] support people. You're highly supportive. Like the connection is the core piece,

[00:48:57] but you're also not a doormat there. And like you got roped into things and that mind control

[00:49:03] kind of process of someone getting you to all of a sudden question everything in your body

[00:49:07] and your will and not run the fuck out of the room when someone's about to burn you.

[00:49:12] You were trained to submit in a way that you would not have naturally in your personality submitted

[00:49:18] if you had not been put in the warm water and the temperature slowly turned up.

[00:49:22] But I think there are folks who are in there who aren't wired with as much of a sense of will

[00:49:29] as you have. And so I think they got in deeper and darker and the further you're in,

[00:49:33] the more distorted you are, right? The less you're eating, the lesser sleeping,

[00:49:36] the more that your calories are being controlled. Even that point of view that was like,

[00:49:40] I'm not going to do this calorie control thing. Yes, you're right. I did have a will with certain

[00:49:45] things. And I think like an example used to call it that you're either more ethics bound or rule

[00:49:49] bound. And I determined that I was a bit of a rule follower, but that was externally. Internally,

[00:49:55] I didn't go for it. Like I would pretend to do certain things we were all supposed to do,

[00:50:00] but inside I'm like, fuck that I'm not doing it. But I knew that I had to do it to like

[00:50:03] maintain my status in the company. Yeah, totally. That the mix you're talking about?

[00:50:08] Absolutely. Yeah. It's why also tell me if this feels right, but my sense is that

[00:50:12] the other protective factor was each other. Like it was the two of you coming together and being

[00:50:17] married and having belonging there. And that when you come home and you have this, like,

[00:50:22] you've been assaulted, that was a physical assault to your body that Nippy, you were like,

[00:50:27] what the fuck? Once I showed it to him. And then Sarah, you were able to then absorb that from him

[00:50:32] and be like, yeah, this is like you. But he was also echoing what was already true in your body.

[00:50:37] You had written out your story like the what the fuck was there? The whole,

[00:50:40] you know, why am I naked? Why am I blindfolded? Let this happen. And then you were trained to go,

[00:50:45] okay, but it's here. She's my best friend. I think that means this is okay. Okay. And then

[00:50:51] you'd also been trained to show strength in a particular way to endure abuse as a form of

[00:50:56] vower, right? Like all these things there. But then you have this attachment experience where

[00:51:01] you can come back after this really distressing thing and Nippy's bearing witness and you can go,

[00:51:06] oh yeah, this is not good. Also you like- Yeah, he got it right away. He got it.

[00:51:09] I was always in her ear about how shit wasn't good in the company. I was all in what we were

[00:51:15] doing. Committed.

[00:51:17] Right? Like I thought, okay, if we can get this, the philosophy of it, we get this to the world

[00:51:21] and get people thinking and asking questions this way. It felt really good to be a part of something

[00:51:26] like that. How things were run, what was going on. I was always in Sarah's ear. I decided I wasn't

[00:51:31] going to go fight these people on this stuff because I didn't want, those weren't interesting

[00:51:35] fights to me and they're still not. I'm not trying to win arguments with people that don't

[00:51:37] want to have a civil discourse. That's what it felt like. And I felt like if Sarah was in a situation,

[00:51:44] I would go to her and Mark Vicente. I was in their ear all the time about why is this person in

[00:51:48] the position of authority? Why are we doing that sort of thing? So I felt the ceiling of growing

[00:51:52] within the company. I didn't necessarily think the philosophy was rotten. And then I kind of felt

[00:51:57] like it was kind of like the philosophy ended up being a front. If my wife has to do something like

[00:52:01] this and even the stuff that was going on, it was a slow burn that I was, huh? Yeah. You had already

[00:52:07] been in a place of skepticism. Yeah. The emotional congruency was getting, there was more of a chasm

[00:52:14] of like, here's what we're doing and here's what's really going on. It just got too, it was getting

[00:52:18] too hard to bear. It was headed here anyway. It was just a matter of what our threshold was. Yep.

[00:52:23] Totally. Totally. That makes perfect sense. And it was headed there. Like when you go back,

[00:52:28] you go, yep. First of all, two or three people dying around him of cancers, that was a real

[00:52:34] sticky point for me for a long time. The two highest ranks too. I don't know how long I was

[00:52:39] going to be in a company. Let's say this doesn't happen to my wife. There were still things that

[00:52:47] how's that happening? What's going on here? Yeah. There was always a what the fuck's going on here?

[00:52:52] It felt like when we're away from Albany, okay, this feels great. We're working with people's

[00:52:57] goals here. You go back to Albany and it was like, this is freaking weird. Everyone looked

[00:53:01] like their dog just died. And also incredibly thin, like anorexic thin. Yes. There wasn't a

[00:53:06] city on the hill that we could aspire to. In fact, we were out in Vancouver, Mexico City,

[00:53:12] and all that stuff. The proof wasn't in the pudding at the closest epicenter of what we

[00:53:16] were doing. It was a hard thing to reconcile, but I didn't necessarily think it was something I had

[00:53:20] to reconcile right away. It took that experience to be able to recognize it as not just, yeah,

[00:53:25] there's some malfunction, dysfunction, some things into, oh, this is actually sadistic abuse.

[00:53:31] Yeah. Yeah. Right? And now we start peeling it back and we recognize this as sadistic sexual

[00:53:35] abuse. Yeah. Yeah. And do I use violence? When do I use violence? That's where I was.

[00:53:43] Tell me where you got to be. That's a reaction to chaos, right? When we enter into chaos and

[00:53:47] the absence of control and we're wrecking, then there's that drive to find control.

[00:53:52] Like, how can I write this wrong? How can I make, how can I pull it? Which of course,

[00:53:57] had you beat the shit out of Keith, it wouldn't have changed the fact that all this abuse had

[00:54:02] happened. Right? It would have just- It didn't change anything.

[00:54:04] It would have given you a momentary release and maybe some time in prison. And so I'm glad you

[00:54:08] didn't do that. That's why he didn't do it. That's why I didn't do it. Because of me and Troy.

[00:54:13] Also, philosophically and morally, ethically, and all that stuff, if you start handling your

[00:54:19] problems with violence, number one, expect more. Yeah, definitely.

[00:54:22] Right? You put yourself in a totally different demographic of society where it's a primordial

[00:54:28] reaction to something that if you're going to go there, you got to make sure you're going there.

[00:54:32] And it's like, you're going all in and you're deciding to live your life that way. And I've

[00:54:36] decided to hit pause on that. Thank you. I think that was a wise choice.

[00:54:41] I'm in line with that choice. I'm very glad. I'm very, very glad.

[00:54:43] Because I don't understand it. I'm Scotch-Irish. So I have that honor culture thing that comes up

[00:54:48] in me. When someone's dishonored me or anyone I love, there is an instinct to bring in the

[00:54:52] fisticuffs. I'm obviously not that big. Can't probably take too many people down,

[00:54:58] but I understand the urge. Oh, I had a whole plan.

[00:55:03] I'm not going to ask you to recite it. It had blueprints. I got my architect

[00:55:07] dad to drop the blueprints. Oh my gosh.

[00:55:11] You like what you hear? Please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes or

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[00:55:20] Smash that subscribe button. You know what to do.

[00:55:26] So that was part one of our combo with Eli Harwood. We'll bring you back for part two next

[00:55:31] week. See our show notes for more information on her excellent books or visit attachmentnerd.com

[00:55:37] to learn more. Until then, come hang out with us on Patreon. We'll be chatting about this episode

[00:55:42] and answering your questions in our latest bonus episodes. And now you can get access

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[00:55:52] And also as a reminder, if you want to join the inner circle, we now have

[00:55:56] silver and black fanny packs instead of the classic ALBC hat as the bonus to go with the

[00:56:02] signed copy of my book. There might be a lightning bolt in there too for you.

[00:56:05] It's pretty rad. If you're into fanny packs, this is the one for you. So thanks for listening to

[00:56:11] A Little Book Cult, everyone. May your attachments be secure and your hearts open. How's that for a

[00:56:16] new sign? That's great. I put the Annie and fanny pack though. Okay, we'll workshop it. See you next

[00:56:21] time.

[00:56:40] Thanks for listening, everyone. We're heading over to Patreon.com slash A Little Bit Culty

[00:56:45] now to discuss this episode. In the meantime, dear listener, please remember this podcast is solely

[00:56:51] for general informational, educational and entertainment purposes. It's not intended

[00:56:55] as a substitute for real medical, legal or therapeutic advice. For cult recovery resources

[00:57:01] and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world, check out a littlebitculty.com

[00:57:06] slash cultyresources and don't miss Sarah's Ted Talk called How Cult Literate Are You? Great stuff.

[00:57:11] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production, executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and

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