Securely Speaking: Attachment Nerd Eli Harwood (Part 2)

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical

[00:00:04] or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the

[00:00:07] official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion,

[00:00:12] group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:24] I'm Sarah Edmondson

[00:00:25] And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy, Ames

[00:00:28] And this is A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when things that seem like

[00:00:34] a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:36] Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told

[00:00:40] directly by the people who live through them.

[00:00:42] Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:46] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already

[00:00:50] prime recruitment material.

[00:00:52] You might even already be in a cult.

[00:00:54] Oops, you better keep listening to find out.

[00:00:56] Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:17] Welcome back to part two, Eli Harwood, we can't quit you babe.

[00:01:21] That's a Led Zeppelin song.

[00:01:22] And you know what?

[00:01:23] We feel good about it.

[00:01:24] Secure, if you will.

[00:01:26] That's a good attachment joke, man.

[00:01:28] Thanks.

[00:01:29] The ever quotable and mega helpful licensed therapist, author and educator is back again

[00:01:33] for another episode and breaking down what attachment patterns can mean for cult survivors

[00:01:37] and seekers, parents, children, lovers and fighters, Mars and Venus.

[00:01:42] By our calculations, that means pretty much everybody should listen to this.

[00:01:45] But dear listeners, kindly back up if you haven't listened to part one yet.

[00:01:49] She's the bee's knees and part one dropped last week.

[00:01:51] Also two parters work best when you listen in order.

[00:01:54] But we imagine you do, but you do you and listen any way you want.

[00:01:58] No judges.

[00:01:59] We advise that we do cover some potentially disturbing topics in this conversation, including

[00:02:03] child abuse, grooming, et cetera.

[00:02:06] So listen with care and remember we are a podcast, not a medical practice or therapy

[00:02:11] service.

[00:02:12] Please see a licensed credentialed legit caregiver for your medical therapy needs.

[00:02:15] And here's part two of our chat with Eli Harwood.

[00:02:29] Eli Harwood, welcome back to this week's episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:02:32] Cliffhanger.com over here.

[00:02:34] Yes.

[00:02:35] Major cliffhanger with the attachment nerd.

[00:02:37] I can't wait.

[00:02:38] So follow her on all the socials, get her book and let's talk about parenting now.

[00:02:44] Now that we've dissected the vow, let's dissect us.

[00:02:48] Parenting.

[00:02:49] I love it.

[00:02:50] Talk to me about your questions.

[00:02:52] Well, I can tell you what one of the more shocking things about being a parent was.

[00:02:57] You probably can't shock her though because she knows everything.

[00:02:59] You kind of touched on it in the last episode about how different they are.

[00:03:03] When ours are five years apart, Troy comes along and I'm like, oh, he's fairly easy.

[00:03:08] He's engaged and his head's up and he's like loving and like still wants to snuggle at

[00:03:13] 10 and I'm like, oh, I got this.

[00:03:15] And Ace comes along and I'm like, what the fuck is going on?

[00:03:20] What happened here?

[00:03:21] It was very different because when he came along, Nipu took it upon himself to get Troy

[00:03:26] out of the house so I could like breastfeed.

[00:03:28] It was COVID.

[00:03:29] And it was COVID.

[00:03:30] I think I bonded really well with Ace right away and it just took Nippy a minute to catch

[00:03:36] up because I did find Ace really warm and snuggly, but it was just the nature of like

[00:03:41] having two kids.

[00:03:42] Troy was four turning five and needed to be like out in the park.

[00:03:47] Also, that's traditionally when the young boys started to do activities with their dads

[00:03:52] more.

[00:03:53] Four, five, six.

[00:03:54] Correct?

[00:03:55] Isn't that?

[00:03:56] Yeah.

[00:03:57] No, I mean, that makes perfect sense.

[00:03:58] I think it's probably just a different sense of synchronicity, right?

[00:04:01] Of course we're going to connect differently with all of our different children, but I

[00:04:04] think we have this expectation that we won't.

[00:04:06] That because they're ours and we love them so much that like we're going to somehow be

[00:04:10] able to cultivate that in the same way, but it's different.

[00:04:13] Every kid is different.

[00:04:14] So yeah, so you had a bit of a shock with Ace.

[00:04:16] Ace was like, you have your first kid and you're like, we've got this.

[00:04:19] I've nailed this.

[00:04:20] It all makes sense.

[00:04:21] I caught myself going, oh, I got to just learn how to be a dad again with a different kid.

[00:04:25] Totally.

[00:04:26] I thought it would be like, I got this.

[00:04:27] I was like, I was kind of saw how my dad handled all of us.

[00:04:31] He kind of handled all of us the same.

[00:04:33] So I kind of had all these preconceived notions and then I was like, oh, he's feistier.

[00:04:37] It's fine.

[00:04:38] It's not, it's just different.

[00:04:39] My challenge that I feel like is that I, now you know our strategies and our backgrounds,

[00:04:43] I definitely tend to like over nurture if there's such a way, like, or whether you call

[00:04:48] it overbearing or whatever, but like I'm very, like if anything, if there's a spectrum, I

[00:04:53] think Nippy's under and I'm over.

[00:04:56] We did a parenting course from the Adler Institute.

[00:04:58] I don't know if that's international or just in Vancouver, but it was really helpful because

[00:05:03] it helped us look at like, okay, what was our parenting like?

[00:05:05] And what was Nippy, what was our respective parenting like?

[00:05:09] And where does it conflict?

[00:05:10] Because there's definitely times where I'm, we're not on the same page.

[00:05:13] And I think that's the thing where, and like separate note, we're in couples counseling.

[00:05:18] We've been like on ongoing journey since this whole shit show, which I think is important.

[00:05:22] It's an incredible tool to have someone else helping you work through your stuff, especially

[00:05:27] when you're a parent.

[00:05:28] Yeah.

[00:05:29] It's dumb not to.

[00:05:30] Listen, it's how like, it's in my book, my family comes from that like therapist, counselors,

[00:05:35] psychologists.

[00:05:36] Yeah, I didn't have a choice.

[00:05:37] Neither did Mike.

[00:05:38] This is what you're doing.

[00:05:39] And I was like, all right.

[00:05:40] I got a hold of it.

[00:05:41] But like that's, that was one of my earliest memories is like with my stepmom and my mom

[00:05:45] and my dad and like a therapist being like, let's make a tableau of how you're feeling

[00:05:50] is about this moment.

[00:05:51] Don't do that.

[00:05:53] Like, what would you do to tell me about how you're feeling now?

[00:05:56] What would you do differently?

[00:05:57] Like there's a lot of processing, right?

[00:05:58] Yeah.

[00:05:59] Yeah.

[00:06:00] Don't tell me about how you're feeling.

[00:06:01] Let's go think about something.

[00:06:02] Put a bandaid on.

[00:06:03] Or suck it up.

[00:06:04] Yeah, totally.

[00:06:05] I also too, like it wasn't like he was always like that.

[00:06:07] There's five of us.

[00:06:08] Right.

[00:06:09] Well, that's the other thing.

[00:06:10] Your parents' attention were very split.

[00:06:12] You know, if I was actually hurt, he missed it.

[00:06:14] Right.

[00:06:15] But yeah, I think, but I think that's, what's come up the most in.

[00:06:18] Not to minimize what you're saying.

[00:06:20] Yeah.

[00:06:21] I think that's a really important distinction.

[00:06:22] Is like, there's moments where like, I want to handle it this way and he wants to handle

[00:06:25] it this other way.

[00:06:26] And I'm like, you can't do that right now because like, he's so sad and he's like,

[00:06:29] he'll be fine, you know?

[00:06:31] And I'm like, but it's not my interaction.

[00:06:32] Okay.

[00:06:33] So I'm going to give you all some really helpful lenses for these moments.

[00:06:37] Thank you.

[00:06:38] Great.

[00:06:39] The way we want to think about it is our job when our children are in pain or dysregulated

[00:06:43] or upset, scared, tender.

[00:06:45] So in the research, the technical names they use are tender needs and distress.

[00:06:50] So when our children are in a state of tenderness or distress, we want to be offering them

[00:06:55] two things, compassion and calmness.

[00:06:58] So we want to be connected enough that they can feel that we're feeling their feelings,

[00:07:02] right?

[00:07:03] You know, that experience when you're upset and you can tell someone's receiving, this

[00:07:06] is what fucking Keith did, feeling the feelings with you, the witness.

[00:07:10] So you're, you're offering some witness, but then you also need to be offering grounded

[00:07:15] because if we can tell someone's feeling our feelings, but they're floating around and then

[00:07:19] they're overwhelmed by them, they're anxious about them, then we can't borrow that person's

[00:07:25] calmness.

[00:07:26] So we're wanting our children to feel connected, but also to feel like they can borrow our

[00:07:28] sense of I got you.

[00:07:30] I got you.

[00:07:31] I'm my favorite phrases to get our brains as parents into that is I've got you and I'm

[00:07:35] here.

[00:07:36] I got you.

[00:07:37] I'm here.

[00:07:38] I got you.

[00:07:39] I'm here.

[00:07:40] That's what I used to say to my kids when I rocked them.

[00:07:41] I said, mom is here.

[00:07:42] Beautiful.

[00:07:43] Because you were intuitively offering them that sense of presence.

[00:07:47] What gets tricky is that when our kids are having these feelings, our old instincts of

[00:07:52] how we respond to our tenderness and our distress activate.

[00:07:57] And Nippy, what you have is called a hype bow activating strategy.

[00:08:02] So when feelings come in, your strategy is to dismiss, avoid, distract, to bring the

[00:08:09] attention away from the feelings in order to cope with them.

[00:08:12] That's what your dad taught you how to do, right?

[00:08:14] That's what general male culture also taught you how to do.

[00:08:17] And Sarah also read a book.

[00:08:19] Yeah, right.

[00:08:20] Totally.

[00:08:21] Get up here.

[00:08:22] Get out of here.

[00:08:23] Get out of my nervous system here and get into my prefrontal cortex.

[00:08:25] It's like go cerebral, right?

[00:08:27] Get out of that limbic system and go cerebral.

[00:08:30] But Sarah, you have hyper activating strategies.

[00:08:34] Yes.

[00:08:35] Okay.

[00:08:36] So emotion has come into the room.

[00:08:39] Let's like, you know, make sure that it's okay.

[00:08:40] Right.

[00:08:41] So Nippy's brain is going to go more catastrophic.

[00:08:44] Nippy's brain is going to go more dismissive.

[00:08:46] And so, you know, you each are working on a different side of the coin.

[00:08:49] So Nippy, you need to work on that connection, compassion part of your primal instinct is

[00:08:53] to move away from the emotion.

[00:08:54] You have to learn to move towards the emotion just enough to take a sip of it.

[00:08:58] Right.

[00:08:59] And so that your kids can feel I'm here.

[00:09:01] I'm with you.

[00:09:02] Don't I don't want anybody chugging anybody else's emotions.

[00:09:04] That's a terrible idea.

[00:09:05] But it's also terrible to avoid to not sip at all.

[00:09:08] Right.

[00:09:09] To be like, I'm not drinking that.

[00:09:10] Neither are you.

[00:09:11] Right.

[00:09:12] No, you got it.

[00:09:13] That's what he says.

[00:09:14] So I'm not doing that.

[00:09:17] When I mimic this stuff, it's because I've been listening to people talk about it for

[00:09:20] so long and there really are these four categories.

[00:09:23] This is so well researched.

[00:09:24] So OK, I'm going to take a little sip of it.

[00:09:26] You're feeling hey, man, you're really disappointed.

[00:09:28] You can't have a popsicle.

[00:09:29] I'm going to let myself feel that what it feels like to want something and not get it.

[00:09:34] I'm going to have to let myself feel even though I'm like, this is freaking ridiculous

[00:09:37] where you've had a popsicle.

[00:09:39] It's almost dinner time.

[00:09:41] You feel that urge to move away, but you're going to try and regulate.

[00:09:44] You're not going to give them the popsicle.

[00:09:45] That'd be permissive.

[00:09:46] That'd be indulgent.

[00:09:47] That would not be helpful for your child to develop the skills they need to live in a

[00:09:49] world where there are limits.

[00:09:51] But you move in with some compassion like, you really wanted that popsicle, you know,

[00:09:57] and you're relating to them.

[00:09:58] Right.

[00:09:59] But you're also not losing your sense of self in that moment.

[00:10:03] That's where you're staying grounded of like, they're going to probably have another meltdown,

[00:10:07] especially as you offer empathy, because they now know that empathy means I'm not getting

[00:10:10] the popsicle.

[00:10:11] And so they're more in grief.

[00:10:12] Right.

[00:10:13] And they're going to have that.

[00:10:14] You're staying calm.

[00:10:15] Right.

[00:10:16] So on the flip side, Sarah, you have to learn how to stop the sip.

[00:10:21] Right.

[00:10:22] Just a sip.

[00:10:23] Don't go all the way in and don't take it to like the and then in therapy, they're like,

[00:10:27] and she didn't even care that I wanted a popsicle 20 years from now.

[00:10:30] Right.

[00:10:31] Like your brain probably future casts more often where it's like, how is this moment

[00:10:35] going to turn into it to an injury later on in my life?

[00:10:39] And so you have to reel that in and stay in that moment and offer like the structure of

[00:10:45] I can tell you're hurting and I'm not going to change the boundary.

[00:10:49] And it is OK that you're having these feelings like so one of the most helpful things from

[00:10:53] the research is that secure kids don't remember the childhoods as like all perfect.

[00:10:59] Our goal as parents is not that our children are like, I had a great childhood.

[00:11:02] Everything was good.

[00:11:03] That's not a thing.

[00:11:05] That's not human life.

[00:11:07] Right.

[00:11:08] It's that overall sentiment was my parents cared about what I was feeling and what was

[00:11:14] going through and they showed up for me and they were effective at helping me get through

[00:11:18] hard things.

[00:11:19] They also were parent.

[00:11:21] They had boundaries.

[00:11:22] They had limits.

[00:11:23] They guided me through things.

[00:11:24] Right.

[00:11:25] This is, again, what I think your dad did so brilliantly.

[00:11:28] He's like, there was this sense of a guy.

[00:11:30] Here's how I'm going to take you.

[00:11:31] He just didn't know how to guide you through emotions.

[00:11:34] He knew how to guide you around emotions, under emotions, above emotions.

[00:11:37] Right.

[00:11:38] But like not through them.

[00:11:39] Yeah.

[00:11:40] And so it's like, how how can we offer our children the experience of being connected

[00:11:44] in those tender moments, but also guided by us through those tender moments?

[00:11:51] That's what we're trying to do.

[00:11:52] So sip a little less, Sarah.

[00:11:55] Sip a little more, Nippy.

[00:11:57] And both of you really hold on to that sense of groundedness in what it is that you're offering

[00:12:02] and guiding and doing.

[00:12:04] And this is more messy than I'm making it sound.

[00:12:07] I said this in the last episode, there's some real elasticity in secure attachment.

[00:12:13] There's room for my husband.

[00:12:15] I talk about this all the time.

[00:12:16] Our worst parenting is always at bedtime.

[00:12:18] We're just so tired.

[00:12:20] And I'm just like, it's always when I end up in.

[00:12:23] I had one fight last week where one of my kids, my wife, twin four year olds would not

[00:12:28] go to sleep.

[00:12:29] She was running out of the room.

[00:12:30] And at some point I just went into that authoritarian kind of mode.

[00:12:33] You will not leave this room.

[00:12:35] You will not.

[00:12:36] And I'm holding the door and she's banging her head against the door.

[00:12:39] And I'm not holding a boundary in a mature way.

[00:12:42] I'm not like, I'm sorry, honey.

[00:12:45] I've moved into sort of this dysregulated place because I'm like, it's been a fucking

[00:12:48] hour already and I want to go to sleep.

[00:12:51] And I'm holding the door and she's banging.

[00:12:53] And eventually I start using threats, which I do very rarely.

[00:12:56] But I'm like, she's obsessed with our cat, Henrietta.

[00:12:59] And like, if you don't go to bed, you can't pet Henrietta tomorrow.

[00:13:02] I'm going to take away your joy.

[00:13:04] You could just put up a sign that said lost cat.

[00:13:07] But what does she do?

[00:13:08] She climbed in her little car.

[00:13:09] And at this point I'm still so mad.

[00:13:10] I can't even connect to it.

[00:13:12] Like I'm still just so like, so I laid on the bed and I call myself down.

[00:13:16] My other twin, my other twin's in the room watching all of this.

[00:13:19] And she's like, Remy isn't listening.

[00:13:21] And I'm like, yeah, I know.

[00:13:22] But also mommy needs to calm down.

[00:13:23] So I'm trying to calm myself down.

[00:13:25] And then I gave her a minute.

[00:13:26] She cried.

[00:13:27] My tantrum passed.

[00:13:28] I went over to the closet and I got down and made my body small.

[00:13:32] So I don't look like this big hovering giant that I was just being right.

[00:13:35] I get down in there and I'm like, can I hold you?

[00:13:38] And by this point, she's not happy.

[00:13:39] I'm not happy.

[00:13:40] She's ready to be held.

[00:13:41] And there's thousands of interactions that have led to her capacity to repair with me

[00:13:45] in that moment to know that like the mommy that I just interacted with is like just very

[00:13:49] tired.

[00:13:50] That's not my typical experience with her.

[00:13:52] So she trusts me.

[00:13:53] She comes into my arms and I hold her and we lay in bed and we get to sleep.

[00:13:57] And the next morning we wake up and I'm like, I'm so sorry.

[00:14:01] I was so harsh with you last night.

[00:14:03] I was not.

[00:14:05] I had no patience.

[00:14:06] We talk about it and we repair and she'd already moved on.

[00:14:10] I was more horrified at how I had acted, but she was like, it's okay.

[00:14:15] I love you so much.

[00:14:16] I love you so much.

[00:14:17] And they need those moments too, right?

[00:14:19] There's value in that.

[00:14:20] And then you can show that you can have those moments and apologize.

[00:14:24] And not go into deep shame and self contempt.

[00:14:26] I think that's one of the things I see a lot of well-meaning parents do where it's

[00:14:29] like, I'm so, so sorry.

[00:14:30] Are you okay?

[00:14:31] Again, future casting.

[00:14:32] Is this the thing you're going to talk about in therapy later on about that one night and

[00:14:36] I held the door shut and I told her I was going to take the cat away.

[00:14:39] Is this the one?

[00:14:40] You know, I'm just like, no, maybe it is.

[00:14:42] That's okay.

[00:14:43] Talk about it in therapy.

[00:14:44] But like, I know I didn't just break it.

[00:14:47] Right.

[00:14:48] I had a moment and it didn't break because it's stretchy and I'm going to work to do

[00:14:53] better.

[00:14:54] And my husband and I are going to strategize like, how are we handling Remy at bedtime?

[00:14:57] What are we doing here?

[00:14:58] What's this?

[00:14:59] Whatever.

[00:15:00] How can we redo this in a better way?

[00:15:02] So I think just trusting in your own nervous systems, like you are the parents your kids

[00:15:07] need.

[00:15:08] They need you.

[00:15:09] And so how can you repair when you're off course, connect when there's tenderness, right?

[00:15:15] And then get support from each other and the other grownups in your life to help buffer

[00:15:19] your nervous system, to do this crazy parenting in the modern life thing we're all doing

[00:15:23] because it's crazy.

[00:15:25] It takes a lot.

[00:15:26] It is crazy.

[00:15:27] I know I reflect a lot.

[00:15:28] I'm like, what we're doing has never been done before.

[00:15:33] Not quite like this with the technology and with the way that both parents tend to be

[00:15:38] working if there are two parents in a home.

[00:15:39] Like, no, we've not done this before.

[00:15:42] Still figuring it out.

[00:15:43] No, absolutely.

[00:15:44] Technology is a whole other podcast.

[00:15:47] Technology is a whole other podcast.

[00:15:49] I'm sure you've done lots of interviews on that.

[00:15:51] In terms of cult awareness or prevention, I know this particular part isn't necessarily

[00:15:57] your expertise, but given your expertise, what are some of your guesses that you think

[00:16:02] might be good for parents to think about that might be preventative for predators?

[00:16:07] Well, I'm definitely thinking about it because I'm thinking about it with my own kids.

[00:16:10] Right.

[00:16:11] Yeah.

[00:16:12] So, okay, a cult experience is an experience of abuse in the context of a dedicated, committed

[00:16:18] community.

[00:16:19] Okay, so it's community abuse in that sense.

[00:16:21] But I would like it to be protected from all sorts of abuse.

[00:16:24] Right?

[00:16:25] Because there's cult of one, too.

[00:16:26] Right.

[00:16:27] Like the first thing I would say is you create a protection, a protection.

[00:16:30] So I talked about protective factors.

[00:16:32] I want everyone to hear that you can be a really secure parent, offer your kids everything.

[00:16:36] They could still end up in a cult.

[00:16:37] It doesn't mean it's your fault.

[00:16:38] Like that's not what we're saying.

[00:16:40] And you can cultivate some protective factors that might help them not get into one or leave

[00:16:45] earlier than maybe other people in the process.

[00:16:48] So one of the protective factors is how you relate to them.

[00:16:51] So if you relate to your children generally with a sense of connection at the helm, so

[00:16:58] my job as a parent is to help you grow and learn and to keep you safe and healthy while

[00:17:03] you are doing that.

[00:17:04] My job as a parent is not to be in control.

[00:17:07] I'm not the boss trying to get you to be subservient.

[00:17:11] Right?

[00:17:12] I'm not looking for you to be totally compliant.

[00:17:16] So I'm looking to empower you over time as your brain develops and you are capable of

[00:17:19] handling that power maturely.

[00:17:21] That's my job as a parent.

[00:17:23] Then when they go into other relationships, it will feel funky when someone's related

[00:17:27] to them through power and dominance.

[00:17:29] We want our children to feel like it's odd that someone's wanting to control them.

[00:17:35] Right?

[00:17:36] Whereas kind of traditional behavioral parenting approaches, which I don't even know if I want

[00:17:39] to call them traditional behavioral kind of old school.

[00:17:42] Yeah.

[00:17:43] It's funny because I'm like attachment is older school than that crap.

[00:17:45] So I don't want to give it credit for being old school, but whatever.

[00:17:48] That sort of like patriarchal, authoritarian type of parenting.

[00:17:53] Well, it's obsolete.

[00:17:54] Yeah.

[00:17:55] It's not obsolete.

[00:17:56] I wish it was obsolete.

[00:17:57] It's getting there.

[00:17:58] It's less and less.

[00:17:59] Well, it's obsolete in its effectiveness.

[00:18:00] At a certain point for us to survive as a species with the elements, that's how it formed.

[00:18:05] And we've graduated, I think intellectually to the point where like, hey, we don't have

[00:18:09] to keep that structure.

[00:18:11] It's out of balance and it's actually, it's crumbling on itself.

[00:18:16] I think it came into play in colonialism.

[00:18:18] The Victorian age is where it was really, it was formed.

[00:18:22] Exactly.

[00:18:23] The same time that we were discovering germs, there was this model of relating that was

[00:18:29] more prescriptive around children.

[00:18:31] Skinner, one of the heads of behaviorism, one of the founders of behaviorism wrote in

[00:18:35] a book like, do not kiss your children if you must shake their hand in the morning when

[00:18:40] you greet them.

[00:18:41] It was just very like, going like the opposite of our human instinct for attachment.

[00:18:46] Attachment's been around since human beings have been around, right?

[00:18:48] So it was a fad.

[00:18:50] This has been a fad.

[00:18:51] But anyway, when you treat your children with the lens of dominant, my job is to teach you

[00:18:56] to obey me and do whatever it is I ask.

[00:18:58] You're literally training that.

[00:18:59] You're part of the grooming system that allows someone like Keith Raniere to do what he does,

[00:19:03] right?

[00:19:04] Where it doesn't feel so strange to be in a master-slave relationship because that's

[00:19:08] that.

[00:19:09] That feels right.

[00:19:11] That's what I've been trained to do.

[00:19:12] So when we offer our children the dignity of respecting them as people and we are slowly

[00:19:17] sharing power with them over time, we're not trying to teach them to submit to our will.

[00:19:21] We're trying to help them utilize and be empowered at levels that they are capable of handling

[00:19:28] maturely, right?

[00:19:29] We don't offer our one-year-old a knife, but my four-year-olds all use knives to cut food.

[00:19:34] We cook a lot in my home.

[00:19:36] So we're slowly offering them the tools they need to be empowered and to live healthy.

[00:19:41] I was going to say productive lives, but I don't really care if my children produce things.

[00:19:45] Healthy, happy lives.

[00:19:46] The other thing is education.

[00:19:48] Mr. Rogers says what's mentionable is manageable.

[00:19:51] So after I was watching your episodes, my son was in the other room doing some reading

[00:19:56] and he was like, what were you watching?

[00:19:57] There's a lot of swearing.

[00:19:58] I was watching The Vow.

[00:20:01] Like there was?

[00:20:02] I didn't notice.

[00:20:03] I was talking to him and I was just talking about this is what a cult is and this is how

[00:20:06] it works.

[00:20:07] And this was like, we're just going to have a conversation about it.

[00:20:09] And then throughout various things that we are exposed to, we're going to discuss that.

[00:20:15] Oh, that's a tool that happens in a lot of cult settings or in abusive settings.

[00:20:20] This is what abuse looks like and sounds like.

[00:20:22] I am teaching all my children that abuse always starts as connection.

[00:20:27] So you never know if someone's abusive until you know them for a while.

[00:20:32] Abuse is not someone trying to hurt you, except in the cases that one or two percent that

[00:20:37] are truly sociopathic.

[00:20:38] And I guess I would say Keith Venear probably had intent.

[00:20:41] I don't know.

[00:20:42] I still think he had more of an intent to control than he had to harm.

[00:20:45] He wanted to use harm and suffering as a form of control.

[00:20:48] So you're looking for people who are in their mindset, their belief.

[00:20:53] You're looking for what do people believe about relationships and about you.

[00:20:56] So if someone believes they are better than, stronger than, smarter than, that's not confidence.

[00:21:03] That's arrogance.

[00:21:04] And arrogance tends to lend to abuse.

[00:21:06] If someone believes they are smart, they are strong, they are whatever, that's great.

[00:21:11] It's good to believe those things about yourself.

[00:21:13] That doesn't mean necessarily that they're arrogant.

[00:21:15] It's when it starts to take a dominance role.

[00:21:19] So we're looking for that in our relationships.

[00:21:21] We're looking for humiliation.

[00:21:23] We're looking for how does someone handle our tenderness?

[00:21:26] Do they use our tenderness as a way to make us feel bad about ourselves or as an opportunity

[00:21:33] to help support us in feeling seen and known?

[00:21:36] Do they use our celebrations and our goals as tools to empower us further in our journey

[00:21:44] or as ways to continue to tie us closer to them?

[00:21:48] What's happening in this dynamic?

[00:21:50] Just like the sex talk, it's not one talk.

[00:21:54] It's a conversation you have all the time over and over again.

[00:21:57] What did teaching your children also had to listen to their bodies?

[00:22:00] All of that what are you feeling stuff as annoying as it might have been as a child of therapists.

[00:22:05] I can see that in your book.

[00:22:07] Like there is a distinct sense of you knowing that something didn't feel good in a lot of

[00:22:12] settings.

[00:22:13] Now you were being manipulated then to ignore those feelings and to view them as imperfection.

[00:22:17] But you still had a connection to them.

[00:22:19] I would guess there are a lot of people that went through that process who didn't even

[00:22:22] necessarily notice.

[00:22:24] So I think helping our children feel their feelings, helping them recognize and talk

[00:22:28] directly about abuse and how it plays out and what it looks like so that they have those

[00:22:33] tool sets, pointing that out in the environment when we see things in movies.

[00:22:37] We saw the Mario movie.

[00:22:38] Did you guys see the Mario Brothers movie?

[00:22:40] Not fully.

[00:22:41] I've seen bits of it.

[00:22:42] I watched it yesterday with my son.

[00:22:43] It's so funny you mentioned that.

[00:22:44] What?

[00:22:45] I saw it right from them.

[00:22:46] Okay, so.

[00:22:47] And how many times have we watched a movie down there since we lived here?

[00:22:50] Like five times in a year and a half.

[00:22:51] We rarely use a television.

[00:22:52] How rare?

[00:22:53] I picked up Ace early and I said, let's watch a movie.

[00:22:55] And he picked Mario Brothers when we watched it.

[00:22:57] It's a great movie for talking about abuse.

[00:22:59] Oh, Ace is a bad guy, right?

[00:23:01] Bowser's not cool.

[00:23:02] Bowser, but he talks about being in love with Princess Peach.

[00:23:04] So the entire story is Bowser wanting to marry Princess Peach.

[00:23:08] And at some point, one of the characters says, Bowser, she doesn't even like you.

[00:23:13] And he's kind of like, yeah, like it doesn't care.

[00:23:16] Like there's no goal.

[00:23:18] So when I watched it with my son, we talked about it later.

[00:23:20] I was like, so did Bowser?

[00:23:21] I was like, I have a trick question for you.

[00:23:23] Does Bowser love Princess Peach?

[00:23:25] And he said, yeah.

[00:23:26] I said, how do you know he loves her?

[00:23:29] He wants to marry her.

[00:23:30] Huh.

[00:23:31] That's interesting.

[00:23:32] I'm going to point out a few things that contradicts this theory.

[00:23:34] And I said, he didn't care what she felt.

[00:23:37] And he's like, whoa.

[00:23:38] Like, is that love?

[00:23:40] Is that love if we don't care what the other person feels?

[00:23:42] He didn't listen to her when she said no.

[00:23:45] Is that love?

[00:23:46] Whoa.

[00:23:47] And I said, if he really loved Princess Peach, what would he have done when she said no?

[00:23:52] He's like, let her go.

[00:23:53] Like, ding, ding.

[00:23:55] So did he love her or did he want to devour her?

[00:23:58] Did he want to control her?

[00:23:59] Can you imagine having me as a mom?

[00:24:00] He's going to have to.

[00:24:01] But anyway, lucky guy.

[00:24:02] He's like, yeah.

[00:24:03] And I was like, he wanted to own her.

[00:24:06] That's different.

[00:24:08] And he may have been saying things that sounded like love and he may have been wanting to

[00:24:12] engage in a ceremony that we equate with love, marriage.

[00:24:15] But that wasn't love.

[00:24:17] And then we nuance those things over time and we talk about it.

[00:24:20] And we talk about it with the cat all the time, right?

[00:24:23] Does Henrietta want to be held right now?

[00:24:25] What's Henrietta telling you about her level of interest in snuggling right now?

[00:24:28] How do we love Henrietta?

[00:24:29] We let her go.

[00:24:30] Does she look happy?

[00:24:31] Does she look happy right now when you do that to her?

[00:24:34] Right.

[00:24:35] Exactly.

[00:24:36] Unfortunately, Henrietta is the chillest freaking cat on the planet.

[00:24:38] She lets my children carry her around like a rag doll.

[00:24:42] Hilarious.

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[00:25:14] Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we?

[00:25:18] I have a question for you about, and again, I'm reluctant to kind of bring other people's

[00:25:23] lives on our podcast, but it's out there in the documentary, the people that remained

[00:25:28] loyal in the face of everything that was coming out.

[00:25:33] Why?

[00:25:34] Avoidance of grief.

[00:25:35] Yeah, pain.

[00:25:36] Okay, a couple of things.

[00:25:38] One, they had more risk factors.

[00:25:39] I guarantee they had more risk factors in their lives.

[00:25:42] For sure.

[00:25:43] Early abuse, lack of community, maybe personality wiring, whatever.

[00:25:47] They were in it for longer, so the brainwashing was deeper.

[00:25:50] Yeah, and they moved there.

[00:25:52] In the epicenter.

[00:25:53] And so the process of, at that stage, the process for them of really truly acknowledging

[00:26:00] this was abuse, I was abused, is so fragmenting for them because that means that what do I

[00:26:06] have left?

[00:26:08] I think that's why I talk about your protective factor.

[00:26:10] It's like y'all had each other.

[00:26:11] It was like, let's save our lives.

[00:26:12] Let's save our son.

[00:26:13] Let's get the hell out of Dodge.

[00:26:16] There's this sense of, I want to leave this narrative.

[00:26:19] You're leaving the situation, but you're also leaving the story that you've bought into.

[00:26:23] I want to leave this narrative because it no longer serves me.

[00:26:26] In fact, it's problematic.

[00:26:27] Whereas I think for some of these folks, it's all they have left.

[00:26:30] And that's so heartbreaking.

[00:26:32] So okay.

[00:26:33] And they don't even have parents to go back to.

[00:26:34] We had parents that were like, welcome back.

[00:26:38] So thinking of a handful of them, I don't want to lump them all into one project outside

[00:26:41] the company as well.

[00:26:42] Totally.

[00:26:43] And I also felt like, you know, we were never.

[00:26:46] Exclusively NXIVM.

[00:26:47] And I also felt like, look, my future is not, yes, I'm going to be involved with this company

[00:26:53] if it is what it says it is for a long time, but I want to go do other things.

[00:26:58] Brilliant.

[00:26:59] There's other things that are creative to me.

[00:27:00] Well, here's the thing.

[00:27:01] Some of those people that are loyal had careers they gave up.

[00:27:04] I still think some of them can go back to certain things had they just made the pivot.

[00:27:08] Now they really can't.

[00:27:09] Right.

[00:27:10] Right.

[00:27:11] Now what do you do?

[00:27:12] I think the thing that is like, I think some of them did have something to go back to.

[00:27:15] But they cut the cord too much.

[00:27:16] I don't know.

[00:27:17] It's just.

[00:27:18] What you have right now is really lovely, Nippy.

[00:27:20] You have like a little bit of hope for them still.

[00:27:22] They're all good people.

[00:27:23] Like, it doesn't change the fact that I had someone like, I'm thinking of a handful of

[00:27:27] them, like I had some of my best belly laughs with some of those people and that doesn't

[00:27:33] change.

[00:27:34] Do you know what I mean?

[00:27:35] Like they were all, we were all having fun together.

[00:27:37] And I just think that person is still there.

[00:27:40] Number one.

[00:27:41] And number two, like in the face of like, how are they reconciling?

[00:27:46] So many people are hurt and saying they're hurt.

[00:27:50] Like what has to go on with that psychology for them to just dismiss the volume of evidence?

[00:27:56] They're not mentally well.

[00:27:58] But like not mentally well because of Keith, not before.

[00:28:01] Probably because of Keith.

[00:28:03] Yeah.

[00:28:04] Yeah.

[00:28:05] And who knows if there was a vulnerability before?

[00:28:06] I don't know.

[00:28:07] I would say he systematically fucked with their sense of self in the world, with their

[00:28:14] sense of identity, with their sense of worth, with their sense of trust in other people,

[00:28:20] other organizations.

[00:28:21] You know, and anyone who is, I was gonna call you defaulters.

[00:28:23] That's not it.

[00:28:24] What do you say?

[00:28:25] What's the term when you leave?

[00:28:26] Defectors.

[00:28:27] Right.

[00:28:28] Anyone who's defected, you know, you're defective.

[00:28:30] And so there's this like mental health.

[00:28:32] One way to describe mental health to me is the ability to hold two things that are complex

[00:28:37] and maybe even contrasting true at the same time.

[00:28:40] And that's what you just did.

[00:28:41] I can know that this person is like deeply unwell in this particular way in their loyalty

[00:28:46] to the abuse that they experienced.

[00:28:47] But I also believe that deep down inside, they are good and lovely and that like gut

[00:28:52] laughing silly part of them is like there still.

[00:28:55] I can hold these two things.

[00:28:56] But the person you're describing here is not yet healthy enough to do that.

[00:29:00] So they aren't yet able to say, yeah, what happened to me was abuse.

[00:29:06] And that doesn't mean I'm so like they're afraid.

[00:29:08] I think they're probably afraid that if it's true that this is all abuse, that means I'm

[00:29:12] a fool.

[00:29:13] I'm a sucker.

[00:29:14] Something's wrong.

[00:29:15] Could it be true that you are brilliant and wise and all of that is true?

[00:29:18] And you were still abused and you still got sucked into a system.

[00:29:21] I mean, that's part of why I wanted to say very clearly that I think healthy people can

[00:29:25] end up in cults.

[00:29:26] I don't think this is just about what's wrong with you.

[00:29:29] I think this is about what is so profound in the cult leaders capacity to manipulate

[00:29:34] people.

[00:29:35] I agree.

[00:29:36] I think that's such a big part of the messaging now around cults.

[00:29:38] Like even when we came out six years ago, that was not the case.

[00:29:42] It's like, what's wrong with you?

[00:29:43] How did you get into this?

[00:29:44] How did you do that?

[00:29:45] Yeah.

[00:29:46] No, you can tell by the questions they were asking.

[00:29:48] The interesting thing about what Sarah and I went through is while we were being looked

[00:29:52] at a certain way, we knew that we had sat down with a volume of people over 10 years

[00:29:56] and had very complex nuanced questions with people.

[00:29:59] So we did have a set of skill sets when we got out, we knew how to elicit and listen.

[00:30:03] And we sat down with reporters, we would just look at each other after and be like, dude,

[00:30:06] we're not fucking doing that.

[00:30:07] I go, I'm not letting you do that.

[00:30:09] That person doesn't care about you.

[00:30:10] They want like this.

[00:30:11] And then someone shows up and they ask a nuanced question that extends us dignity and empathy.

[00:30:16] I'm like, that's a conversation worth having.

[00:30:19] You contribute that to whatever.

[00:30:21] I just think we sat down with a lot of people.

[00:30:24] Was that in the vow?

[00:30:26] I can't remember.

[00:30:27] We've only watched it once.

[00:30:28] I can't remember if it's in the vow or your book.

[00:30:29] I've just been absorbing this for the last week, so I can't remember where it was.

[00:30:33] But yeah, again, this is where you go back to two things can be true.

[00:30:36] There are pieces of what Keith was teaching that are brilliant, beautiful and good.

[00:30:40] And he was using them as tools of manipulation.

[00:30:43] So that's where they were problematic.

[00:30:46] And so we can take some of that back and say, hey, guess what?

[00:30:50] Being critical and thinking critically about things is important.

[00:30:53] How he used that was to train you to criticize everyone and everything but him.

[00:30:58] Which isn't actual critical thinking.

[00:31:00] Because then we'd be being suppressive.

[00:31:01] Right.

[00:31:02] If we did that.

[00:31:03] And dishonorable.

[00:31:04] Yeah.

[00:31:05] Yeah.

[00:31:06] And back to attachment, one thing that we didn't talk too much on this episode, but

[00:31:10] I think might be interesting for you in your studies is the work of Dr. Alexandra Stein.

[00:31:14] Do you know her?

[00:31:15] I have read some of her work.

[00:31:17] I'm not deeply familiar with it, but she looks at the way that attachment plays out in regards

[00:31:21] to cults.

[00:31:22] Is that her?

[00:31:24] Yeah.

[00:31:25] Well, in the cult itself specifically, and this has been years since we spoke to her,

[00:31:28] but in Terror, Love and Brainwashing, she talks about how he uses the abuse cycle, like

[00:31:33] he being Keith in this case or the abuser, of the love bombing and the isolation and

[00:31:41] then the devaluation cycle.

[00:31:44] Basically creating the disorganized attachment style experience.

[00:31:48] And so I don't know if there are studies specifically about how much your style relates

[00:31:53] to your ability to be abused in that way, or he just sets that up.

[00:31:56] I don't think there are studies.

[00:31:58] I think there should be.

[00:31:59] Yeah.

[00:32:00] I don't know how they would do those.

[00:32:01] The problem is how do you get those studies in?

[00:32:02] How do you get them into the cult environment and watch all of that?

[00:32:06] It's hard to study a cult.

[00:32:07] Although what you all did is unbelievable because we have so much footage.

[00:32:12] I just kept watching it going, how do we have all this footage?

[00:32:15] This is insane.

[00:32:16] That's what we said when we watched it.

[00:32:17] We were like, where did they get all this fucking footage?

[00:32:19] Because he's a megalomaniac and wanted to document everything for the library of his

[00:32:23] genius.

[00:32:24] Which is so helpful in this case because we can really watch what the absolute disturbing

[00:32:29] formula was and how he used that formula.

[00:32:33] And I have no doubt that by you all having this podcast and making the vow that there

[00:32:37] are people who will now be more wary of cult situations, right?

[00:32:43] And be able to recognize, oh, this person started out this way and now slowly I'm being

[00:32:50] asked to what?

[00:32:52] Isolate myself from my other friends and family.

[00:32:55] Dedicate more of my life to this, right?

[00:32:56] Like red flag, red flags.

[00:32:58] Watch out for them.

[00:32:59] Yes.

[00:33:00] Yeah.

[00:33:01] Yes.

[00:33:02] That's our goal.

[00:33:03] Give people the tools to see their red flag so it doesn't happen to them.

[00:33:05] Or if it has happened to them, get out sooner.

[00:33:08] Absolutely.

[00:33:09] Yeah.

[00:33:10] Did you discover me when I was talking about the Dalai Lama thing?

[00:33:13] How did you find me?

[00:33:14] You posted something about the Dalai Lama and I wrote, so crazy.

[00:33:16] Do you know about the Naxian connection to the Dalai Lama?

[00:33:19] And then you went right into, let's, I'm on a podcast bender.

[00:33:22] Let's chat about it.

[00:33:23] Taj Mahal trauma and cult context.

[00:33:25] Yeah.

[00:33:26] And that was it.

[00:33:27] But I don't remember what you said now.

[00:33:28] Was it you talking about like how it's not appropriate?

[00:33:31] There was this video that came out of the Dalai Lama.

[00:33:34] Oh, the kissing one.

[00:33:35] Yeah.

[00:33:36] Grab his tongue.

[00:33:37] Okay.

[00:33:38] So let me just grab the video and we'll also talk about our limitedness as white folk talking

[00:33:42] about another culture.

[00:33:43] There's that.

[00:33:44] Yeah, we don't know.

[00:33:45] Yeah.

[00:33:46] But so in the video, there's this little boy and he's taking an audience with the Dalai

[00:33:48] Lama.

[00:33:49] And obviously like he's a member of this religion.

[00:33:50] I didn't realize that in certain sects of Buddhism, they really believe the Dalai Lama is God.

[00:33:55] I just wasn't that familiar with some of that.

[00:33:58] So I didn't realize that when I was making my comments.

[00:34:01] So this little boy has got an audience with God, right?

[00:34:05] It's like a very big deal.

[00:34:06] And the Dalai Lama offers him a hug.

[00:34:09] Do you want a hug?

[00:34:10] And the little boy, of course, says yes.

[00:34:11] And he's excited.

[00:34:12] And you can tell at this point, this little boy is like, I'm getting the hug my hero,

[00:34:15] right?

[00:34:16] Like it's like, oh, and he hugs him.

[00:34:18] And then the Dalai Lama says, kiss me.

[00:34:22] And you can actually feel at that moment, the little boy's a little more like, like

[00:34:25] there it's it wasn't necessarily expecting to kiss the Dalai Lama.

[00:34:28] And then the Dalai Lama kisses him.

[00:34:30] And then the Dalai Lama says, suck my tongue.

[00:34:34] And for me, watching that film, I felt like this is exactly how grooming works.

[00:34:41] Right?

[00:34:42] So that appropriate ask happens first.

[00:34:46] And there's the sense of delight.

[00:34:47] Right.

[00:34:48] And like you describe when you're in NXIVM being asked to give it getting that extra

[00:34:53] stripe that David didn't get in that first meeting.

[00:34:55] Right.

[00:34:56] And you're like, oh, I got my first strike.

[00:34:58] I get my second strike.

[00:34:59] Like that feeling like this feels good.

[00:35:01] It's like that kid is feeling that of like the Dalai Lama is giving me an audience and

[00:35:04] wants to hug me.

[00:35:05] And that feels so good.

[00:35:06] Right.

[00:35:07] And then someone in a position of abuse will then take that power of influence and take

[00:35:11] it, take it further and take it further in order to demonstrate their power.

[00:35:16] And so I was commenting on that.

[00:35:18] And I was commenting on this is how grooming, this is how sexual abuse grooming works.

[00:35:21] Right.

[00:35:22] And so over time, the child becomes trained to say yes to the next thing and the next thing

[00:35:26] and the next thing, trusting the adult in that process and also feeling as if they've

[00:35:31] consented and feeling as if they are up for it.

[00:35:34] Yes.

[00:35:35] I basically accused God of sexual abuse on the Internet.

[00:35:38] So that was intense.

[00:35:39] And I received within a couple of hours seven or eight death threats.

[00:35:45] Wow.

[00:35:46] And was I mean, the only way I can describe it as like my page was stormed.

[00:35:51] There was just hundreds and hundreds of comments.

[00:35:55] It was such a surreal experience for me for multiple reasons.

[00:35:58] I had stereotypes about Buddhism.

[00:36:00] I didn't realize that there was fundamentalist Buddhism.

[00:36:02] I really thought, oh, there's Buddhism is like more of a philosophy than a religion.

[00:36:06] And I think because I grew up in conservative fundamentalist religion, I had viewed Buddhism

[00:36:11] as a more evolved version of religion.

[00:36:14] So it was interesting to me to hit that backlash, which I know you all have experienced.

[00:36:18] Oh, yeah.

[00:36:19] I would say that anyone who stands up to and speaks out against any form of abuse, prepare

[00:36:24] yourself for the torrential response because there are systems set up to defend.

[00:36:30] Now, I don't know.

[00:36:31] One of the nuances around this video is that in Tibetan culture, in order to greet people,

[00:36:37] one of the custom of greetings is you stick out your tongue and you're proving that your

[00:36:40] tongue isn't black and that you haven't been poisoned and so that you aren't cursed, basically.

[00:36:46] So you greet people by sticking your tongue out.

[00:36:48] Okay, so there's a different nuance around tongues.

[00:36:51] And there's another-

[00:36:52] Like sucking tongues?

[00:36:53] Okay.

[00:36:54] So there's another nuance where if an elder and a child are playing, the elder will give,

[00:36:59] let's say they give the child a piece of fruit and blah, blah, blah, blah, and the child

[00:37:02] will ask for more.

[00:37:03] And as a joke, the elder will say something like, there's nothing left to eat but my tongue.

[00:37:08] But you don't actually do it.

[00:37:12] The Dalai Lama's defense was that it was a language translation that he meant to say,

[00:37:18] Like, what else do you want from me?

[00:37:20] But what bothered me about the interaction is the child didn't say, can I have a hug?

[00:37:24] Can I have a kiss?

[00:37:25] And then that would make sense for him to then say, do you want to eat my tongue?

[00:37:30] So I don't know.

[00:37:31] I still have a- about the video.

[00:37:33] Yeah, it doesn't feel-

[00:37:35] I think it's totally acceptable what you said.

[00:37:38] I didn't do a full post, but I did mention it somewhere and I didn't get the full onslaught

[00:37:42] like you did, but I did get somebody saying like, you're really uneducated.

[00:37:46] You don't know about blah, blah, blah, blah, everything you just said.

[00:37:49] And I was like, you know what?

[00:37:50] It doesn't matter to me.

[00:37:51] That seems like abuse apologists because you're attached to your religion.

[00:37:53] I thought of this watching Catherine, India's mom on the video.

[00:37:57] What's so hard is that there is a defenselessness when folks are inside of the cult, but you

[00:38:02] are in that state of mind control.

[00:38:04] Your world has gotten strong.

[00:38:05] You do feel stuck.

[00:38:07] You aren't totally able to critique, right?

[00:38:09] The minute you critique, you're in conflict.

[00:38:11] And so there is a need for people outside of the situation to comment on it.

[00:38:15] Like, that's a huge part of how you were able to take NXIVM down.

[00:38:20] But I do struggle because I also recognize that there's a long history of white folk

[00:38:24] putting our lens and our cultural stuff onto cultures that we've colonized.

[00:38:30] So that's another form of abuse, right?

[00:38:31] So there's this dance, and I feel like I do, but I've thought about it a lot.

[00:38:34] I sat with it.

[00:38:35] I've wrestled with it.

[00:38:36] And I don't know, I guess I think anyone- I'm not willing to be deified.

[00:38:40] I don't even like it when people are like, you're brilliant.

[00:38:43] There's some part of me that's like, blah, blah, blah.

[00:38:45] I want to teach you some of the things I know, but I'm a human.

[00:38:47] I'm a person.

[00:38:48] I don't want to be put above other people.

[00:38:50] So anytime someone is willing to be in that position, I wonder about that.

[00:38:53] I wonder about their mentality.

[00:38:56] Power is a scary thing.

[00:38:57] You shouldn't covet it.

[00:38:58] But that particular thing with the Dalai Lama is very interesting because you are right

[00:39:03] about colonization and all that, but also- this is not my area of expertise, so I don't

[00:39:08] want to say something dumb, but we also- we, white people, colonized cultures where men

[00:39:14] married 12-year-old girls because they were capable of having sex.

[00:39:17] You know what I mean?

[00:39:18] Like, doesn't make it okay.

[00:39:19] Like, we've decided that's not okay, right?

[00:39:22] When you've survived abuse the way that you have, and honestly, I have as well, you have

[00:39:26] a real sense of that je ne sais quoi that is abuse, right?

[00:39:30] And it's like, well, what is that?

[00:39:32] It's someone manipulating another person for the form of pleasure and control, knowing

[00:39:38] that person cannot truly understand what's happening to them, get out of it, process

[00:39:44] it.

[00:39:45] And I think the Dalai Lama himself was groomed as- to be the Dalai Lama, right?

[00:39:48] He's groomed as a child.

[00:39:49] Again, now I'm afraid- now I'm like, great, we're going to put this podcast out and I'm

[00:39:53] going to be back in death-threat land.

[00:39:55] I'll deal.

[00:39:56] So, wait, wait, wait.

[00:39:57] Posting ghosts.

[00:39:58] Honestly, every single episode we do yields at least one letter that we did said something

[00:40:04] wrong.

[00:40:05] Of course.

[00:40:06] Of course.

[00:40:07] I get killed.

[00:40:08] When you speak against abuse, you speak against power.

[00:40:11] And when you speak against power, there is some mechanism there to try to silence you,

[00:40:16] right?

[00:40:17] Like you become a threat to the system.

[00:40:18] And I don't know.

[00:40:19] I made a decision after that post that what I will continue to do is talk about and empower

[00:40:24] people to recognize abuse.

[00:40:27] But I don't have it in me to go after powerful world.

[00:40:31] I'm too in the midst of raising young children.

[00:40:34] That shot my nervous system for like two weeks.

[00:40:37] Oh, for sure.

[00:40:39] It's a lot of energy coming at you that's so negative.

[00:40:41] I will say I took the post down after that because they were sending me my address.

[00:40:45] They'd found me, sent me an address.

[00:40:47] I was like, took the post down and I put up another post talking about the fact that I

[00:40:51] put the post down.

[00:40:52] But the second I put the post down, no more comments.

[00:40:55] It was like there was an organized brigade of people.

[00:40:59] Really?

[00:41:00] There must be some form of an internet.

[00:41:02] That's their job.

[00:41:04] Their role is to stamp out anybody saying untrue things about the Dalai Lama.

[00:41:08] And so they, oh, here's this person.

[00:41:10] Oh, she's got quite a few followers.

[00:41:12] We're going to go after her until she takes it down.

[00:41:15] And in that way, they succeeded.

[00:41:17] They didn't succeed in convincing me I said something wrong.

[00:41:19] They succeeded in convincing me that there's a system of abuse and every form of religious

[00:41:24] power, I think.

[00:41:27] And now a brief message from our little bit culty sponsors.

[00:41:41] You've heard from our sponsors.

[00:41:42] Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we?

[00:41:45] I think that's such an important story.

[00:41:47] And I say sorry that you went through that because it's incredibly stressful.

[00:41:51] And it is important to know that exists.

[00:41:54] It's not an accurate ratio of the percentage of people that feel that way.

[00:41:59] It's a brigade.

[00:42:00] We happen to know this.

[00:42:01] I don't know if you heard our episode about Landmark that dropped recently.

[00:42:03] No, but I've always known Landmark is not okay.

[00:42:07] There's actually analytics support.

[00:42:10] I don't even tell you this Nippy, but somebody reached out to me who's an ex-member and

[00:42:15] he said that was his role was to just like scour the internet.

[00:42:19] That's why you can't find a lot of negative things on the internet about Landmark is because

[00:42:22] someone does that.

[00:42:23] They get well, a brigade does it and goes out and make sure that people remove it.

[00:42:28] And if not, they get a cease and desist letter.

[00:42:31] And it's just a fear tactic, which also by the way is not a little bit culty, is a very

[00:42:35] culty tactic.

[00:42:36] Yes, it's a lot of bit culty.

[00:42:37] A lot of bit culty.

[00:42:39] There is a Landmark-ish right above my house.

[00:42:42] So they're like my next door neighbors.

[00:42:43] And it's like, yeah, I know.

[00:42:45] So an interesting thing and everyone in my neighborhood, they call it, everyone calls

[00:42:48] it the cult.

[00:42:49] And we have that sense of like, that's what's going on there.

[00:42:51] And it's like, there's like always 30 people living there coming in and out.

[00:42:55] They're all very young.

[00:42:56] You can feel the whole thing.

[00:42:57] That's like 80 year old man run.

[00:42:59] You can feel the whole vibes.

[00:43:01] There's a group shower.

[00:43:02] I don't know.

[00:43:03] Like you're just like, no.

[00:43:04] Is it actually Landmark?

[00:43:07] Is it actually Landmark or is it like an offshoot?

[00:43:09] It's an offshoot.

[00:43:10] I mean, it is Landmark, but I know they go through Landmark because I've talked through

[00:43:14] to several different people, but I don't know how it works.

[00:43:17] It's owned by an individual person, the house.

[00:43:20] So he's a part of it somehow.

[00:43:22] Anyway.

[00:43:23] I would love for you to pretend to be interested in this group and go see how far along the

[00:43:27] recruitment process you could get to before you get-

[00:43:30] Well, I did.

[00:43:31] Get a boombox and play our episode.

[00:43:32] Oh my gosh.

[00:43:33] So there you go.

[00:43:34] I went, so early on, this was like 10 years ago.

[00:43:37] My sister-in-law was here with me one night and we were watching TV and they have parties.

[00:43:41] They have these big parties, right?

[00:43:42] And that's like one of their recruitment processes.

[00:43:43] So you have these big parties and people come out.

[00:43:45] And it's right by this road that goes up my house.

[00:43:47] So we watch everybody going up and this is before I had kids.

[00:43:49] I was like, what if we went and spied on them?

[00:43:52] So we were like just nerdy kids.

[00:43:53] We put on all black.

[00:43:54] We like hiked up the hill.

[00:43:55] It's dark because we live like in a woods area.

[00:43:59] So we're like walking up the woods and we get up near the top and someone gets out of

[00:44:01] their car and they're like, oh, are you going to the birthday party?

[00:44:04] And we were like, oh no, no, no.

[00:44:05] We're just going on a hike, which I'm sure they're like, all right, good.

[00:44:08] Like 10 p.m.

[00:44:09] But anyway, it's like, well, you should come.

[00:44:10] And I'm like, oh, we don't know him.

[00:44:12] And then the lady goes, I don't know him either.

[00:44:14] Right.

[00:44:15] And so they were like, OK, so we went in and do that.

[00:44:18] So we like went in and that's how I know there's a group shower.

[00:44:21] We got invited into the group shower.

[00:44:22] We're like, we're good.

[00:44:23] Took one today.

[00:44:25] But they have this big fire.

[00:44:27] And for this guy's birthday, what he wanted was for everyone to burn their regret into

[00:44:33] the sacred fire and then write down three things, three goals they have and assure those

[00:44:39] goals with people they'd never met before.

[00:44:42] Some guy told us that his goal was to go to space once a month for a year.

[00:44:48] So that's like a big inside joke in our house now.

[00:44:51] Once a month for a year.

[00:44:53] Anyway, but like it was just what it felt like to me.

[00:44:56] Very obvious.

[00:44:57] It was like just a lot of folks looking for a place.

[00:44:59] Like there was just they're looking for a place and like, like burn your regrets in

[00:45:03] the sacred fire, make some goals, come together.

[00:45:06] We're going to have some free positive sex.

[00:45:09] This is just a, you know, right?

[00:45:10] Like there was not too late.

[00:45:11] But as a female, I'll tell you, it's nothing like as a female.

[00:45:16] I felt deeply uncomfortable.

[00:45:17] I mean, my sister and I also, we just both felt like, and I have such an astute sense

[00:45:22] of creepiness.

[00:45:23] I can feel it before it creeps.

[00:45:25] Yeah.

[00:45:26] You know, so anyway, we went in and then we left.

[00:45:28] So I feel like I've done a little scouting.

[00:45:30] I haven't gone all the way in.

[00:45:31] You've done enough scouting.

[00:45:33] I don't think you should do any more scouting.

[00:45:34] How can you do that with twins?

[00:45:36] And is he 10 or 11 now?

[00:45:38] He just turned nine.

[00:45:39] He's turned nine and your twins are four?

[00:45:40] Yeah.

[00:45:41] And I had my twins during the pandemic.

[00:45:42] So we share that.

[00:45:43] They were born January 2020.

[00:45:44] Yeah.

[00:45:45] So that was a wild ride we all went through.

[00:45:47] We're only like nine months apart on both kids.

[00:45:49] Yeah.

[00:45:50] Yeah.

[00:45:51] I was thinking that too.

[00:45:52] And we have a four and a half year age gap.

[00:45:53] So we have sort of that same tension, which I'm sure you're living through where you're

[00:45:55] like, how do we do a thing that actually meets the needs of the older child?

[00:45:59] Oh, totally.

[00:46:00] Well, this is partly why we, I don't see that much of Nippy sometimes because we have to

[00:46:04] divide and conquer.

[00:46:05] Yeah.

[00:46:06] We do a lot of dividing and conquering too.

[00:46:07] It's getting better.

[00:46:08] It's starting to get better.

[00:46:09] Is it getting better for you?

[00:46:10] It is getting better.

[00:46:11] Their activities are starting to overlap.

[00:46:12] They're overlapping in baseball and stuff.

[00:46:14] But if you find any other movies that everyone can enjoy other than Mario Brothers, please

[00:46:20] do let me know.

[00:46:21] The natural.

[00:46:22] I hope that this can keep, that we can keep talking and keep in touch.

[00:46:25] And I just feel like we could do so many things.

[00:46:28] But before we part ways, I will have continued to hype up this book, which I found really,

[00:46:33] really helpful.

[00:46:34] I'm going to get you sent us two, which was very kind.

[00:46:37] So I was thinking we should give one away, give one away to our audience.

[00:46:40] Well, first of all, you all have been doing your work for a long time.

[00:46:42] So if you're like, I'm good, I don't need to be doing more work.

[00:46:45] There's one for each of you because write down your own story.

[00:46:48] And like that is important.

[00:46:50] And then you can reference with each other to where, yes.

[00:46:52] Oh, OK.

[00:46:54] This is interesting.

[00:46:55] I'm at the part about affection.

[00:46:56] I didn't really think about affection and how that played out.

[00:46:58] Right.

[00:46:59] Like I saw you earlier where you were like, it felt so nice when you touched my leg.

[00:47:03] Right.

[00:47:04] Mm hmm.

[00:47:05] Different forms of regulating.

[00:47:06] And I think it's great because we actually just started with a new therapist who is really

[00:47:08] trained in attachment theory.

[00:47:10] And even reading this book, one of the things I recognize is because I'm definitely like

[00:47:15] the reacher and like more of the pursuer and like, hey, you know.

[00:47:20] And sidebar, I was laughing when you talked about the defensive mechanism to shut down

[00:47:23] our first biggest fight.

[00:47:25] Nippy read a book.

[00:47:26] He was reading a book.

[00:47:27] Remember this?

[00:47:28] Great book.

[00:47:29] It was a great book.

[00:47:30] And I was like, what are you doing?

[00:47:31] We have to resolve this thing that just happened.

[00:47:33] And I was so mad.

[00:47:34] And he was just like, wouldn't even look up from the book.

[00:47:36] And I actually, we almost broke up right then.

[00:47:39] But then I went and got an EM because we were in NXIVM at the time about how.

[00:47:43] It was like two in the morning.

[00:47:44] I was like, yeah, but we had to resolve the conflict.

[00:47:46] That's what your nervous system does.

[00:47:50] Hyper fixation.

[00:47:51] If there is any conflict, I feel like I'm going to die.

[00:47:55] We have to be back in sync before I can feel relaxed again.

[00:47:59] Whereas the avoiding person is like, I need the conflict to calm down before I can reconnect.

[00:48:04] My nervous system says move away from the emotional shrapnel and then we reconnect.

[00:48:10] And yours says we can't react until the emotional shrapnel.

[00:48:14] I can't let go of the emotional shrapnel until we've reconnected.

[00:48:16] So fun.

[00:48:17] Now I know when we're all flooded, thanks John Gottman, we step away and he cools down.

[00:48:23] Well, I've already stepped away.

[00:48:24] He does his self-cleaning.

[00:48:25] Yeah, you might need to step in a little more in that moment.

[00:48:29] Just.

[00:48:30] I'm in the car.

[00:48:32] But he also knows when he steps away, it's really important for him to say, I still love

[00:48:36] you.

[00:48:37] I'm upset right now.

[00:48:38] And I'll be back versus.

[00:48:39] I text you.

[00:48:40] He texts me.

[00:48:41] He's like, I'll be back.

[00:48:42] So, but all I was going to say is one thing I hadn't realized is that one of the things

[00:48:46] Nippy does is like he'll come back from dropping off the kids and he'll bring up something

[00:48:49] that to me sounds like just like work related or like I want him to be like, oh, you clean

[00:48:54] the house or like you just made dinner.

[00:48:55] Thanks so much.

[00:48:56] But he's like, he'll engage in something that's like, I didn't realize that was him repairing

[00:49:00] acting or reaching.

[00:49:01] It felt like repairing.

[00:49:02] Yeah.

[00:49:03] So I'm going to use this opportunity on the podcast to publicly acknowledge that I'm going

[00:49:06] to be different in those moments and really meet you there and discuss whatever thing

[00:49:11] you just sent me on Instagram and acknowledge it.

[00:49:13] When you get an Instagram meme, that's a big time.

[00:49:18] Or a gif.

[00:49:19] Short list.

[00:49:20] But and then you in that moment to speak to her emotional state.

[00:49:26] Right?

[00:49:27] So you come into the kitchen and you know that you're going to be okay because that's your

[00:49:30] default setting.

[00:49:31] Your default setting is we're fine.

[00:49:33] Everything's fine.

[00:49:34] It'll be fine.

[00:49:35] Right?

[00:49:36] And her default setting is we're not fine.

[00:49:37] Nothing's fine.

[00:49:38] Something could go terribly wrong.

[00:49:39] So you're going in and going to her and going, hey, it's going to be okay.

[00:49:44] That was hard and lovable.

[00:49:45] Oh my God.

[00:49:46] I love that.

[00:49:47] And then for you, Sarah, that you can turn down the knob on the catastrophizing of it.

[00:49:54] Right?

[00:49:55] So like, but he's shutting down and you're nervous just and says, he's like checking

[00:49:59] out on, right?

[00:50:00] Like reinterpreting that of like, okay, he's trying to take a pause.

[00:50:04] He's trying to regulate.

[00:50:05] This is how he knows how to do that.

[00:50:07] Actually one of my favorite, okay.

[00:50:08] I know we need to end, but one of my, one of my favorite things that I like to share

[00:50:12] about attachment is a myth.

[00:50:14] So people tend to think, oh, if someone has an avoidant strategy, it means they're more

[00:50:18] avoidant of attachment and that's not how it works.

[00:50:22] An avoidant pattern is about the most ideal way of maintaining close enough in a certain

[00:50:28] dynamic.

[00:50:29] So Nippy, when you read the book, it isn't because you're trying to create distance between

[00:50:34] you and Sarah.

[00:50:35] You're trying to maintain proximity to her and in your family growing up, that's how

[00:50:41] you did it.

[00:50:42] You want closeness to Clint Eastwood?

[00:50:44] You sure as hell do not cry.

[00:50:46] You fucking pick up a book and you move on.

[00:50:49] You want to be close to, you want your mother to feel as stable as she can.

[00:50:54] You don't add more emotional material to someone who has to drink in order to cope.

[00:50:58] You read your book, you swallow what you're feeling in order to bring calmness to the environment

[00:51:03] because in that context, that's how closeness gets created.

[00:51:07] And so for you, Sarah, when you feel him avoiding, remember he's not actually pulling

[00:51:11] away from you.

[00:51:12] He's attempting to stay close to you in the context of the big emotional moment.

[00:51:16] It's the only way he knows how to.

[00:51:18] I didn't know that.

[00:51:20] Super helpful, right?

[00:51:21] Because I can just walk out the door.

[00:51:23] It's so helpful but also makes sense why like I think of catastrophizing every fight in

[00:51:27] my mind is like, okay, I guess we're getting divorced now.

[00:51:31] For sure.

[00:51:32] Like I'm packing my bags in my head or like, where can I go?

[00:51:34] Because it's over.

[00:51:35] Meanwhile, I'm in another room brushing my teeth.

[00:51:37] But then her brain is like, how can he brush his teeth in the context of the fact that we're

[00:51:42] almost getting divorced?

[00:51:44] How?

[00:51:45] Does he not even care?

[00:51:47] Exactly.

[00:51:48] Certainly looks dismissive.

[00:51:49] It does.

[00:51:50] So I think being responsible for that catastrophic balloon, I think of it as like a helium balloon.

[00:51:56] You can pull it down.

[00:51:58] You can pop it.

[00:51:59] You can pull it when it starts rising up in your brain.

[00:52:00] You're like, oh, I'm going.

[00:52:01] It's starting to go there.

[00:52:02] Is there any data?

[00:52:03] Has he said he wants a divorce?

[00:52:04] No.

[00:52:05] Okay.

[00:52:06] Okay.

[00:52:07] We're not in divorce land.

[00:52:08] That's not what's happened.

[00:52:09] Right.

[00:52:10] I'm going to go ahead and leave that fantasy for the moment when he tells me he wants a

[00:52:13] divorce.

[00:52:14] Other than that, I don't need to be going there.

[00:52:15] So pop that balloon.

[00:52:17] And kind of an inner nurturing voice in your own head that's like, it's okay, sir.

[00:52:21] It's gonna be okay.

[00:52:23] This is just conflict.

[00:52:24] It's gonna be okay.

[00:52:26] He always comes back.

[00:52:27] And remembering, keeping memory of the past.

[00:52:29] He always comes back around.

[00:52:31] We always come back together.

[00:52:33] Secure attachment is stretchy.

[00:52:35] It's okay when sometimes we have to stretch out and we come back.

[00:52:38] We go through seasons where we feel really in sync and then seasons where it's a little

[00:52:42] harder.

[00:52:43] It's okay.

[00:52:44] Can I share with you what you said when you came back from going out with some of your

[00:52:47] friends?

[00:52:48] What?

[00:52:49] You're like, oh my God.

[00:52:50] You gave me a hug.

[00:52:51] Oh, it was after a girl's night?

[00:52:52] Yeah.

[00:52:53] And what did I say?

[00:52:54] I don't know.

[00:52:55] I'll let you say it.

[00:52:56] What was your memory?

[00:52:57] Oh, it was something like, oh my, so glad I'm married to you.

[00:53:01] I say things like that to my husband all the time because when we're out in the world

[00:53:04] as a woman processing other people's experiences of men, it's really sometimes very disturbing.

[00:53:08] Well, this particular week, every one of my girlfriends was going through some heavy shit.

[00:53:14] And you're right, it is a season.

[00:53:16] Right now, Nippy and I are great.

[00:53:17] We've been through some heavy shit.

[00:53:19] Six months, six years ago, I would have said, okay, so I got branded with another man's initials

[00:53:22] and I'm not sure if my husband's gonna ride it out with me.

[00:53:26] But he did and we did.

[00:53:27] Yeah, but it wasn't even a difficult decision.

[00:53:29] Well, I'm glad to hear that.

[00:53:31] Right now, the things that we struggle with are I feel really hopeful about and your book

[00:53:35] added another tool set for-

[00:53:37] Oh, I got one more.

[00:53:38] Oh, you got one more?

[00:53:39] Okay.

[00:53:40] All right.

[00:53:41] I sent Sarah a meme recently and it was when the woman was in the kitchen, pissed at him

[00:53:46] for something that he had done in the dream.

[00:53:48] When she was asleep.

[00:53:49] Yeah, when she was asleep.

[00:53:52] And that fucking happened to us about a year ago.

[00:53:54] I got up, she's like, I pissed at you for what you did in the dream last night.

[00:53:57] I'm like, what the fuck?

[00:53:58] I'm over here making coffee, am I putting the dishes away?

[00:54:02] I'll send it to you.

[00:54:03] It's pretty accurate.

[00:54:04] I was so mad.

[00:54:05] I was just like, all right.

[00:54:06] I went to drop the kids off.

[00:54:07] I was like, all right, well look, sorry for whatever I did in the dream last night.

[00:54:10] You're like, wait a minute.

[00:54:11] Okay, so brain-wise also, this is interesting to me, but when you have a long-term avoidant

[00:54:18] experience, the way that your brain is wired reduces the cell density in your hippocampus,

[00:54:23] so your hippocampus is the part of your brain that holds emotional memory.

[00:54:28] So one other way to think of that is when emotions come into your body, it's actually harder

[00:54:33] for you, Nippy, to hold onto those emotions.

[00:54:35] They don't stick as long.

[00:54:37] Your body's not as sticky with emotion.

[00:54:38] That's just way more natural for them to leave and flip, which also was probably a

[00:54:42] protective factor.

[00:54:43] Yeah, yeah.

[00:54:44] It served me in football too.

[00:54:45] Oh yeah, totally.

[00:54:46] I'm an athlete.

[00:54:47] But Sarah, when you have the preoccupied experience, you tend to be more dopamine sensitive.

[00:54:52] So your hypervigilance and that sense of dopamine sensitivity means that things are

[00:54:58] much stickier, and you need a lot of extra reassurance.

[00:55:01] So it's like, do you love me?

[00:55:02] Okay, great.

[00:55:03] That felt good.

[00:55:04] Oh wait, do you love me now?

[00:55:05] Do you still love me?

[00:55:06] Do you still love me?

[00:55:07] Do you still love me?

[00:55:08] Yes.

[00:55:09] Oh my God.

[00:55:10] And what that does to your brain is that it is harder to release.

[00:55:14] So it's almost like your brain is stickier with emotional content.

[00:55:18] So when something comes in and it is emotional, it's harder to separate it from yourself.

[00:55:22] And so there's brilliance in you two being together because you have these two very different

[00:55:28] skill sets that you're learning from each other.

[00:55:30] And over time, it'll get more nuanced and evolve, and you're not ever going to be like,

[00:55:35] wow, we switched roles where we're...

[00:55:37] But you'll have the default setting, but they'll be way more nuanced over time.

[00:55:43] And I'm thinking about myself early on in my relationship with my husband.

[00:55:46] Oh my gosh, are you sure he loves me?

[00:55:48] I had a group of friends on call that I'd be like, okay, so I texted him and it's been

[00:55:52] two hours.

[00:55:53] How do I interpret this?

[00:55:54] They'd be like, don't.

[00:55:57] It's fine.

[00:55:58] Like remember last night when you were throwing up and he was holding your hair back and carried

[00:56:01] you into your bed to make sure you were okay?

[00:56:03] Remember that last night?

[00:56:05] Literally last night?

[00:56:06] And I'm like, okay, so you think he still likes me?

[00:56:08] You think we're good?

[00:56:09] Oh my God, what?

[00:56:11] Yeah.

[00:56:12] Anyway, I had that state to now where I am and we've been together for a long time.

[00:56:17] We got married in 2010, we got together in 2007.

[00:56:19] And that's sort of our trajectory too.

[00:56:23] I don't have that.

[00:56:25] It's very rare that I have that experience anymore.

[00:56:28] Very, very rare.

[00:56:29] We can have a fight and we're disconnected and we're cranky.

[00:56:32] You know, we had a fight about the dishes that was really dumb a month or so ago.

[00:56:36] He was pretty mad and he doesn't get mad that often.

[00:56:39] He was pretty mad at me because he thought I put a dish towel in his face.

[00:56:42] Anyway, it doesn't matter.

[00:56:43] He was pretty mad at me.

[00:56:45] I was so tired.

[00:56:46] I was like, good night.

[00:56:47] And I went to bed and we talked it out.

[00:56:50] We figured it out.

[00:56:51] We talked about it in couples therapy.

[00:56:52] We worked through all of it.

[00:56:53] But my brain, I can't even imagine what that fight would have done to me early on in our

[00:56:57] relationship.

[00:56:58] I would not have been able to sleep.

[00:56:59] I would have been pacing around outside in the dramatic way trying to figure out how

[00:57:04] to get him to pay attention to the deep importance of this disconnection we're having.

[00:57:09] And now I'm like, I know in my brain and in my nervous system, we always come back

[00:57:14] together and it's okay.

[00:57:16] So that's the goal.

[00:57:17] That's because you did the work, though not culty work, the actual work.

[00:57:21] I did a lot of therapy.

[00:57:23] There was a lot of crying and a lot of thinking about my childhood and a lot of understanding

[00:57:27] where the past was in the present.

[00:57:29] A lot of understanding that this was a little girl inside of my body still who was managing

[00:57:34] a suicidal mom and an alcoholic dad.

[00:57:37] That was getting put onto this present moment in a feeling state.

[00:57:41] I wasn't thinking about those things.

[00:57:44] It felt like it was all about what was happening in the moment with my partner, but I started

[00:57:47] to recognize, oh, that's not what's...

[00:57:48] I married the most wonderful, coolest, chillest, most thoughtful human on earth who's not addicted

[00:57:54] and doesn't struggle in those more intense way.

[00:57:58] And so my body could over time absorb that.

[00:58:00] And that's what we're trying to do when we're trying to heal our attack.

[00:58:03] Right.

[00:58:04] That's such a great path and such a great roadmap for all of us.

[00:58:08] I didn't write in this because I thought I might give it to a fan, but now I'm going

[00:58:11] to go back and do it again fully and evolve.

[00:58:13] And I'm so glad that you found your husband.

[00:58:16] Yes, and I'm glad that we found each other through the Dalai Lama, through his holiness.

[00:58:21] And so ironic that his holiness is such a big part of our NXIVM journey.

[00:58:26] It all comes full circle.

[00:58:28] Just for a small feat.

[00:58:29] I know, right?

[00:58:30] Yeah.

[00:58:31] You too can have pretty sure...

[00:58:33] I don't think that's hearsay.

[00:58:34] I'm pretty sure that's been verified, but allegedly, yes, we'll say allegedly just to

[00:58:38] not get sued by somebody.

[00:58:39] Well, it'd take me a million dollars to go back to Albany, New York.

[00:58:42] That's true.

[00:58:43] I've never been there.

[00:58:44] A million dollars just to go to Albany.

[00:58:45] I'm not sure even a million dollars will work.

[00:58:46] No.

[00:58:47] It's not that bad.

[00:58:48] It's not that bad.

[00:58:49] There's some nice coffee shops.

[00:58:50] Really nice buildings downtown.

[00:58:51] I love it.

[00:58:52] Shout out to the coffee shops and my favorite vegetarian store called The Four Seasons in

[00:58:56] Saratoga.

[00:58:57] Well, that's in Saratoga.

[00:58:58] Nevermind.

[00:58:59] Let us know in the comments, what your next book is and where the best to find you.

[00:59:03] And I'm sure everyone's going to follow you because we need not culty people to follow

[00:59:07] and learn from.

[00:59:08] Isn't it funny though?

[00:59:09] Even the term followers after watching The Vow, I was like, I don't want followers.

[00:59:13] I want...

[00:59:14] And that's not how I interact with people.

[00:59:16] I'm not like, follow me.

[00:59:17] Do the promise.

[00:59:18] Anyway, but if you want to listen to me run my mouth on the internet because you find

[00:59:22] it entertaining or helpful or whatever.

[00:59:24] Attachment Nerd is my handle and that's Instagram, Facebook, TikTok.

[00:59:28] And then I have a website attachmentnerd.com where I have like courses and I help people

[00:59:35] who are looking for like a deeper dive into that.

[00:59:37] And then my new book is called Raising Securely Attached Kids.

[00:59:41] And it comes out in September.

[00:59:43] And it is not a workbook for those of you who do not want to do the work, although there's

[00:59:47] work involved in reading.

[00:59:49] But anyway, it's a bookie book.

[00:59:50] And I just lay out, this is how you develop the relationship with your child that will

[00:59:55] help create the resilience they need for.

[00:59:58] Because there's a lot of parenting books that are like, here's how you potty train.

[01:00:01] Here's how you handle this behavioral moment.

[01:00:03] Here's how you deal with whatever.

[01:00:04] I hadn't found one yet that I felt like really took the science and help people understand

[01:00:09] here is how you cultivate the secure connection with your child that then works as a tool

[01:00:15] in their sense of development, their sense of self, and also in your ability to guide

[01:00:19] them.

[01:00:21] So we are far more likely to be guided by people we feel connected to than by people

[01:00:25] we don't feel connected to, as Keith Ranier knows well and manipulated.

[01:00:29] And long term that will hopefully be another protective mechanism.

[01:00:33] And that's what we're trying to do here.

[01:00:34] Absolutely.

[01:00:35] Well, I'm so proud of you all.

[01:00:36] I just I feel inspired by you and impressed by you and also just like you all.

[01:00:41] I think you're funny and fun.

[01:00:44] After going through all you went through, there's something to be said for that.

[01:00:46] Yeah.

[01:00:47] I mean, like how cool it is that we get to do this.

[01:00:49] That like this is the silver lining that we have this time with you and we get to learn

[01:00:52] and continue to grow.

[01:00:53] Consider where we thought it was headed.

[01:00:54] Yeah.

[01:00:55] Yeah.

[01:00:56] You are awesome.

[01:00:57] It's so good to be with you all.

[01:00:58] We'll send you this when it comes out.

[01:01:00] So good to be with you.

[01:01:01] Please keep in touch and let us know when you come to Atlanta.

[01:01:02] Oh, I will.

[01:01:03] I don't have any plans, but if I do, we're having dinner.

[01:01:06] Absolutely.

[01:01:07] Okay.

[01:01:08] So good to be with you all.

[01:01:09] Till next time.

[01:01:10] See you later.

[01:01:11] Bye.

[01:01:12] Like what you hear, do you?

[01:01:13] Give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes.

[01:01:16] Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there.

[01:01:20] Smash that subscribe button.

[01:01:21] You know you want to.

[01:01:26] I could probably talk to Eli forever and ever.

[01:01:28] We could have gone part three.

[01:01:30] Part three for sure.

[01:01:31] Trilogy.

[01:01:32] She's got some amazing books and resources, all at attachmentnerd.com.

[01:01:35] Check out our show notes for links and find her on all the social medias at Attachment

[01:01:40] Nerd.

[01:01:41] Thanks for listening and join us on Patreon if you want to chat more about these episodes

[01:01:45] or hear bonus episodes.

[01:01:47] If you're new for spring 2024, you can get access to all bonus episodes we drop every

[01:01:51] month for just $5 a month.

[01:01:53] It's pretty good value.

[01:01:55] So until next time, stay strong, be secure, all those things.

[01:02:00] Thank you for tuning in to A Little Bit Culty everyone.

[01:02:02] We appreciate you.

[01:02:03] Bye everybody.

[01:02:04] Thanks for listening everyone.

[01:02:24] We're heading over to Patreon.com slash a little bit culty now to discuss this episode.

[01:02:30] In the meantime, dear listener, please remember this podcast is solely for general informational,

[01:02:35] educational and entertainment purposes.

[01:02:37] It's not intended as a substitute for real medical, legal or therapeutic advice.

[01:02:42] For cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world,

[01:02:47] check out a little bit culty.com slash culty resources and don't miss Sarah's Ted talk

[01:02:51] called How Cult Literate Are You?

[01:02:54] Great stuff.

[01:02:55] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production, executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and

[01:02:59] Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound and our

[01:03:03] co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard Jess Temple Tardy.

[01:03:07] And our theme song Cultivated is by John Bryant.

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