Stolen Innocence: Elissa Wall on Growing up FLDS (Part 2)

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[00:02:57] This is episode two with our guest, Alyssa Wall, incredibly brave woman who helped take it down Warren Jeffs. If you have not listened to episode one, please go back and listen to that before this one. And make sure you have watched the documentary, Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey.

[00:03:13] Thank you. There were even songs I saw in the documentary about Keeping Sweet and a little story. I can't remember if we've shared this in our podcast, but I'll just tell you Alyssa that when we were in DOS, like the secret women's group,

[00:03:38] we had to take photos of ourselves with our sisters and naked by the way. So we had to take a naked photo whenever we got together, which was only a few times before I left. We'd take a naked photo and submit it to Lauren, our master.

[00:03:50] And then the feedback we got from her master, which we didn't find out later was Keith, was that we didn't look happy enough and we had to go back, get together, do it again and look and smile.

[00:03:59] Because obviously we weren't, none of us were happy with the situation. We weren't enjoying it. We were following orders as per what I thought was like a game, but it's clearly not a game. That's the kind of thing that I think that Keith stole,

[00:04:10] but I also see as a pervasive problem amongst all these groups is this toxic positivity. You have to be happy. Otherwise, the tools don't work. The work doesn't work. I would completely agree. That's a fabulous term. I'm going to borrow a toxic positivity and you see it.

[00:04:27] You know, I think it's also toxic sweetness because so many of the people that come from the FLDS, specifically the women, there's this very sticky layer of sweetness that they have. And part of me when I'm working with some of these people, and because there are,

[00:04:42] there's still FLDS that are active and we're still in process of helping a lot of people that choose to leave when they're ready to leave. And sometimes you just want to shake them and you just want to shake that sweetness right out of them.

[00:04:52] Because you know it's not there. It's literally a facade. Totally inauthentic. I can only imagine. Trust me, there's some people that I really want to shake as well, but for slightly different reasons. I think the documentary does a really good job of explaining how nobody would come forward

[00:05:10] and that there was an investigation and that there were these, I don't know if you call it bounty hunters or people out there like trying to shine light and nobody would come forward and everyone's, all the women are like, no we're happy, we're fine.

[00:05:21] No one's underage, everything's great. And then here's Elisa, this spitfire thank goodness for you who was waking up and it seemed like you decided, tell me if I'm right about this, you decided to eventually to testify for the government because you wanted to save your sisters

[00:05:37] who were still in. That was a real motivating force to keep going. Is that right? That was a motivating force to keep going. And I think prior to the choice to come forward, I will be honest,

[00:05:48] I fell in the same disillusion that we were taught and that is nothing happened that was wronged in my life out of sight, out of mind. My mother, the last time she ever saw me prior to this was she made me promise

[00:06:01] that I would never fight the church. And here she's holding my firstborn child and I know that this is probably the only time I'll see her so that brainwashing went super, super deep. But really what broke it for me was my little sister has disappeared

[00:06:17] and motherhood also brought me a lens that I looked at life through that I didn't have before. And that was the understanding of this instinctual need to protect our children and I realized that my mother did not have that.

[00:06:32] She didn't even have the tools to protect her children and I realized that if we didn't do something, that the fate of my sisters we knew what was possible and we knew where it would go.

[00:06:44] And that's what gave me the fuel to put aside all of my fears and concerns and I'm fighting the priesthood and I don't know about for you guys but for me the brainwashing and the culturing was so deep.

[00:06:59] I mean it was so embedded in us because we were born into it. I'm sure that I was experiencing some of that in the womb but to kind of go counter to all of that and say put that aside

[00:07:11] and say it doesn't matter if I end up going to hell what feels right right now and to teach myself how to feel, to teach myself how to question and to then be able to say if this is so hard for me to do

[00:07:24] what is it like for the people that I left behind? And then to also have to be very clear and to realize that Warren was not a good man and it's sad sometimes for me to see how long it took me

[00:07:36] to break free of the illusion that somehow he was God on earth but it takes time and then when we finally do you cannot unsee it. That's so true. You can't go back. You can't go back and coming forward was really that realization

[00:07:51] that if I didn't then who would? And during the timeframe of coming forward and the investigation that would follow working with prosecutors then having my sisters was what kept me going. I kept a picture of them and carried it with me everywhere I went

[00:08:10] because this particular picture captured innocence and joy and childness and I realized that to preserve that something had to be done. I have to say the description of the trial in your book was really painful to see especially how a female prosecutor

[00:08:27] for I guess the defense for Warren tried to paint you somehow as anything, I'm not even going to say the words but just anything other than who you are it was infuriating. And I wondered if you could share with our audience

[00:08:40] that pivotal moment where you looked at Warren and you realized he no longer had power over you? Yes, I had been working with prosecutors and one of the things that I think most people didn't quite realize was even for me to learn how to articulate my experience

[00:08:57] was a journey and I was just telling people in law enforcement in hopes that somehow it would protect my family but to have law enforcement be the one to say what happened to you was wrong. That was abuse and to start to help me see

[00:09:13] the realities of what I had experienced and the depth of what I had been carrying and the control that Warren had it takes a long time for people to unweave their psychology from the control and I am the same way

[00:09:30] but the power that Warren had for so many years of my life all he had to do was say anything he wanted and it could change the trajectory of my life but in that moment when I walked into the courtroom

[00:09:41] and I stood on the witness stand the first time and I watched as they brought in Warren of course my body responded in the way that it had been trained to and I could feel myself starting to get small again

[00:09:53] and my heart racing and my breath going shallow and I had to physically push out of my mind all of those things that started to come up and look at it and choose me even though in that moment I thought I was choosing my family

[00:10:07] I thought I was doing it for someone else innately I was doing it for myself and to sit on that witness stand and to look Warren in the face whereas my training had told me to drop my gaze to show respect and to hold his gaze

[00:10:22] as he looked at me with that piercing stare that he's notorious for and to just continue to hold it even though my entire body was on fire with trying to respond the way that it had been told to I broke that bond

[00:10:37] I broke that chain in that moment and refused to break that gaze until he broke that gaze and that was that step for me that said I am free of that control because I chose to free myself of that control So powerful Thank God, thank you

[00:10:57] the world thanks you for that and for what you did in that courtroom it really laid the foundation I think for everything else to come that was such a key decision I hope that you keep that close to your chest in the hard moments in the valleys

[00:11:11] I do keep it close to my chest and I also since then have really just come to appreciate all of the people before me and I often explain it like there was a whole stream of dominoes and there were women in years gone by

[00:11:26] that had tried to come forward in the best way that they knew how that had left the culture and started over and tried to tell people their stories and all of that had laid the groundwork to make that last domino fall

[00:11:41] which allowed it to line up the way it was and so I do I hold my actions with deep appreciation and gratitude for myself to have been able to have the courage to do that but I also have an immense gratitude

[00:11:56] for all of the people that came before me that made it possible It's the same case for us many people tried before us but there and I knew we still had access to quote the outside world or at least a foot in it

[00:12:09] and we were interfacing with it FLDS was all you knew What was it like for you to reconcile what you had been told about it in comparison to what it actually was and how's that journey been for you and what have you enjoyed

[00:12:23] what have you been shocked by and what have you been surprised by and must have been a whole new adventure I really love that you use the word journey because I've been able to look at it as just that

[00:12:34] I think for a lot of people that find themselves in a cult or have ever dealt with a cult a lot of the cults they have this key aspect where people can return to a version of themselves prior to the cult and it kind of gives this ability

[00:12:49] for them to have some reference of filtering the experiences that they've been through whereas I think people that are born into high demand religious cults such as the FLDS there's never something to return to because you completely abandon all that you were because you have to

[00:13:09] and for me when I left it was the scariest thing I had done to that point and it was like jumping across the Grand Canyon but it was foggy and I had no comprehension of what I was jumping into and to put it in

[00:13:25] simple terms I was really like a refugee and I often refer to the people of the FLDS that are adapting into mainstream society as their domestic refugees they need all of the same things I needed all the layers of support to learn how to

[00:13:41] function in the world around me and it's been a journey in the beginning it was incredibly difficult because not only was I grieving the family that I had left behind and grieving what I believed was my possible salvation after this life but I was

[00:13:59] dealing with every day was something new every day was some shock after another and learning how to adapt and to find myself through it there's been many versions of me and I look at that as kind of a metamorphosis each season of my life I've gone through

[00:14:15] an immense expansion of understanding and realization about the world and then I go through a phase where I kind of have to cocoon in and I have to really assimilate everything that I've learned and then come out of that in a blossoming of that version of myself

[00:14:31] and then it just continues to happen because I believe that that's part of the journey is if healing is not linear and to give myself permission to not be on a linear path to be on this path through it and I will tell you I'm

[00:14:47] 36 years old and there's moments that happen all the time I'm like I had no idea and it's this constant discovery and my gift has been to instead of see myself as trying to play catch up I'm getting an opportunity to see the world from a very

[00:15:03] different lens because a lot of it's new to me but it still has been a process and it's been a difficult process and when I connect with other people that have come from all different kinds of backgrounds like this whether it was cults or high demand

[00:15:19] religions or whatever you want to term it as we all have a similar thread and that is that we were told we were never enough and that never enoughness is the common denominator in all of our trauma and to be able to see that in other people

[00:15:37] and to realize how we're really not that much different there is more of me and them and more of them and me then either one of us can ever imagine that's a great way of putting it this is the golden age of cult recovery

[00:15:51] the more we speak up and share our stories the more we realize we are not alone your voice and your story can empower others this is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I got out movement learn more at I got out.org

[00:16:23] maybe it's getting 8 hours of sleep and that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it

[00:16:39] nature is a non-negotiable not enough time the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it I get so much out of it

[00:16:53] it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people

[00:17:03] you know what I mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help or try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire

[00:17:17] and get matched with a licensed therapist and get a professional charge look even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever

[00:17:29] never skip therapy day with better help visit better help dot com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month that's better help H-E-L-P dot com slash culty meals bring people together but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating

[00:17:47] in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through January 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue Feeding the Hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated

[00:18:03] to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's how have you healed that trauma has it been through therapy or what's been your journey to feel your enoughness my journey has been all-encompassing I've worked with so many different kind of modalities

[00:18:27] my background had taught me that there was no such thing as mental health there was only spiritual health which was what the church thought of you and so the process of coming out and reconciling the importance of mental health and my psychology was an intense journey

[00:18:45] and some of it came out of collapse after a warrants trial and all the intensity of that I came to a point where I could no longer hold all of it and it was a pivotal point in my journey where my body did the speaking

[00:18:59] and it said enough and I fully just collapsed I had a nervous breakdown and I just lost myself in the pain and the trauma and the struggle that I was experiencing and it was difficult because on one hand I wanted the world to see me as this really

[00:19:17] powerful and that I was okay I wanted the world to see that I was okay because I thought that my family was watching this but I was not okay and that gave me the opportunity to choose my path because there was this moment in that breakdown where I

[00:19:35] didn't know who I was or what I was but I was just trying to survive and I found myself at the library one day with my kids and really if you've ever experienced someone who's going through a nervous breakdown of this they're so numb

[00:19:51] and they're kind of a shell of who they are and that's really what I felt like is the shell and I'm sorting through the books just because I'm trying to distract my mind and I found a book on this oriental art I believe it's Japanese

[00:20:07] this art form where they take broken pieces of porcelain and pottery and they stitch it back together with gold and there was this moment of epiphany where I realized that was me I was a shattered vase and all of my pieces were on the ground

[00:20:23] and all I had to do was find my veins of gold to put myself back together because I had an innate desire to be whole again I would look at my children and I would say I want them to see me as a whole healed individual

[00:20:39] but I have no idea how I'm going to get there and that really set me on a decade long journey of discovering my veins of gold to stitch my pieces back together and to also give myself permission in this journey

[00:20:53] that I didn't have to pick up every one of those pieces and so the vase that was originally shattered has morphed into something far more beautiful because I've left a majority of those pieces on the ground and I've chosen to pick up other pieces through therapy through reading

[00:21:13] self exploration, meditation movement and really if I could encapsulate it a lot of my work has been around embodiment learning how to come into my body how to create a relationship with my body a relationship with my intuition my feelings my desires, my joys, my pain my sadness

[00:21:35] and as anyone that's ever gone through that it is so personal and you could go to therapy all day long and have a professional tell you all these tools and all these different things but when you're at home and you're the one curled up in your bed

[00:21:49] you're the one that knows what you need and to learn that my job was to give myself a toolbox a toolbox that had all of the things so that when I found myself in that vulnerable moment I could say you got this, Lisa you know what to do

[00:22:07] all you have to do is pick up one tool and keep going That's the guitar solo's of metaphors right there I need to get some tissue That was so good The best metaphor I've ever heard of That was a riff Well thank you

[00:22:23] I'm glad to hear that I've got some artistry in it and it's a part of my journey that I'm truly passionate about sharing is you know what happened to me was very important and I know that continuing to talk about it and tell the story of my life

[00:22:39] but also the reality of the community it came from it's so important but where it really connects and resonates with people is sharing the healing journey because I think that's where everyone is searching for someone else and what could potentially work for me but they're also searching

[00:22:59] to be validated that their experience was real and when someone tells about that healing journey It's particularly important because the people that are going to be tuning into your story want to see that there's a light at the end of the tunnel

[00:23:15] and not just the abuse that happens and a lot of people that are seeking as you say want to hear that the negative does turn into the negative and you can do it and that trauma isn't your narrative and it isn't your sentencing so to speak

[00:23:33] you know you can transcend it I love that you just said that's going to be our sound bite for this podcast I know for sure of what you just said about your healing and the veins of gold and the broken pieces and as you're speaking

[00:23:47] I mean I don't know what you're thinking Nippy but Nippy and I are doing this journey together but I'm realizing as you're saying it both of those things bring us into our bodies do you know what I mean? and so that's such a key

[00:23:59] like you just brought it all together for me and also as you're talking I'm having awareness of like my mom is in town right now and she's like isn't that heart these pock she saw us watching Keep Sweet she's like isn't this triggering for you

[00:24:11] isn't this like upsetting and maybe you need to not do this and I'm thinking maybe but like I get to have this conversation with you and that's a huge gift and then we get to give that toolbox to our audience and ultimately yes it's upsetting

[00:24:27] certainly upsetting to watch what happened in your community and what Warren did to so many young women it's horrific and then the silver lining is it's not but it's an and we get to heal together and share our stories

[00:24:39] which I think was so much of why these things went on checked for so long because nobody talked about it I would completely agree with you and that's where I've really appreciated in my journey getting to meet all kinds of people from all walks of life

[00:24:51] and share in the story because by sharing we choose to be vulnerable we choose to be open and we also choose to accept our story and these are all key components of our ability to heal and for me one of the most important aspects of this was really

[00:25:07] identifying the shame in it because even for me sharing my story had threads of shame and what it really is is shame you bring words to shame it no longer a shame it's really what it is and that's grief because grief dresses up a shame

[00:25:25] it dresses up as anger and I grieved what had happened to myself and my family I grieved what was still happening to my community and going through that process of it and where I find myself now is when something does trigger me I've taught myself

[00:25:43] this trigger is coming up what is it telling me and to kind of look at my experience now from that of a curious scientist and say you are this ever evolving research project and so by being curious with each one of these things continuing to

[00:26:01] explore other people's stories and share and read and look at the common denominators in our experience but then also the things that made us so vastly different those differences are where we pick up more tools Yes and where are you now in terms of you move back to

[00:26:19] Short Creek or the Cric as you call it in your community what are you doing now and what's your I know you're an public speaker you have this bestselling book you're an advocate tell me about that tell us about your life now

[00:26:31] I did move back to Short Creek in 2016 so much had changed in the community as a whole a lot of people had been doing a lot of work in different angles to break the control over the people and then also break the financial arms that the church

[00:26:47] had over everyone you know when I came up against Warren Jeffs it was a multi-million dollar church and over time it came to a point where the community that is called the Cric as you would say it needed people to come home and to rebuild

[00:27:03] and I found myself in this this whirlwind experience where I had to choose do I continue my life because I knew you know if I just kept going and doing I was doing everyone would completely agree you know it's easier to just move on completely and I've had

[00:27:19] some family members that that's been the easiest way for them to deal with it but for me I realized that if we didn't go back and we didn't go to the epicenter of all of it and to start to create a different way the likelihood

[00:27:33] of it repeating was pretty high I didn't realize is I needed to go back as much as it needed me to come back because by returning to the short Creek area it allowed for me to confront those demons that I still held in my closets as we all

[00:27:49] do you know there's always a closet that opens up and and something else comes out but the most important aspect of it for me was to learn to separate the place from the events that had happened because for so much of my life I just held the short

[00:28:03] Creek area just in this all these horrible things happened it's a horrible place but by returning to it and seeing the beauty of the area the immense barren stunning and epicness of the desert that surrounds it and being able to connect with it deeply and fall in

[00:28:21] love with it has really assisted and supported me in being able to be a force for change and good inside of the community and do everything from support and helping to take over the local town governments you know they were they were each ran and held by people

[00:28:37] that were still loyal to Warren and over the years since I moved back we've slowly empowered voters to step up and have a voice teaching people to have a voice teaching people how to exercise their voice and then just being a part of the community

[00:28:51] as everyone comes together and heals in every capacity being an advocate for the people that are still voiceless and using my story to inspire government agencies and all different kinds of resources to come in and be a force in supporting the change that's happening within this area

[00:29:11] and so my life now you know if you were to drive into the short Creek town now it's a little odd and there's a part of me that I you know I want to play on Portland's theme and say keep short Creek weird because there's

[00:29:23] a lot of really amazing weirdness about the area but it's beginning to look like a normal small town where you see kids going to school in the morning and you see families out enjoying their lives and for me knowing what it was 18 years ago and what it's become

[00:29:41] is constantly this incredible force of empowerment in my life because I get to see firsthand what resilience looks like what it tastes like what it feels like and I'm actually coming up on here on November 7th will be my 18th year anniversary that I left the FLDS

[00:30:01] and I get emotional when I look at it and I see what can happen in 18 years because the people that I get to connect with were people that I grew up with and to look at each one of our lives is everyone has taken on

[00:30:15] their own healing journey and everyone is bringing back a different piece of that healing and we're seeing not just individual resilience but we're seeing community resilience in a really powerful way Meals bring people together but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge

[00:31:00] You can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry Food Drive. All proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through January 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags

[00:31:16] where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries Together we can combat hunger and the local communities at Macy's This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp What are your self-care non-negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting 8 hours of sleep

[00:31:34] I mean that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it? Well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside in nature Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it Nature is a non-negotiable

[00:31:50] and I start to feel not great not myself, not grounded Therapy Day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority

[00:32:00] I get so much out of it It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need

[00:32:10] to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean? Thanks Therapy Thanks for helping me see that And if you're thinking of starting Therapy It's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule

[00:32:22] Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge Look, even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself

[00:32:34] non-negotiables like Therapy are more important than ever Never skip Therapy Day with BetterHelp Visit BetterHelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month That's BetterHelp H-E-L-P dot com slash culty What happened to all the money that was in the church

[00:32:50] after Warren was imprisoned for how long? 100 and something years? Yes, he's been convicted for Lifetimes plus for his various crimes but you know the people ask what happened to all the money and I think so much of it was just used and consumed and a lot of the

[00:33:10] financial arms of the church you know for instance one of them is considered the UEP which stood for United Effort Plan and it was this idea that the church had started early on that they were creating a trust that was going to take care of everyone

[00:33:28] because they believed if everyone was doing well then the community is doing well but that original intention to keep everyone well really was a tool that was used to be warped and taken over to where when I came along no one owned their own home

[00:33:46] all of the property was constantly being surrendered to the church and in these 18 years since I've left that's been part of the process the state took over the UEP trust and it's been a long intense journey but ever so slowly the trust itself was taken over

[00:34:02] by people who were from the community who have been a part of making sure people could get home ownership and all the layers that needed happened to start to make it so that people were empowered to have their own resources and assets

[00:34:16] but the reality is that's part of it there is no way to gather the resources that were lost and so many people's lives they gave everything they had and my dad's a really good example of it he was a successful businessman

[00:34:30] but if you were to look at him now he doesn't have anything to show for his life and that's very painful for him in that position but the reality is the money that was the church was used and you see it

[00:34:46] in the way they developed the compound in Texas and the compound in South Dakota and all the ways in which they used the people's hard-earned money to just buy a lifestyle for the leadership what happened to those compounds?

[00:34:58] so the compound in Texas was actually taken over by the Texas government and I'm not 100% sure what they do with it now and the compound that was in South Dakota was recently recovered in a lawsuit by some ex-members they had filed lawsuit against the church

[00:35:14] and then they recovered it and I'm not 100% sure what they're doing with it now but neither one of the compounds are under the FLDS control at this point good. Did you ever reconcile with your mother? oh the mother topic it always brings great emotion

[00:35:28] but I really appreciate getting to talk about it because it's always the question did you reconnect with your mother I have a little bit and there came a point where we were so desperately looking for my mother and my two sisters

[00:35:42] that one day it was after I'd written my book and I had a woman that came up to me after a book signing and she mentioned that she thought she knew my mother and sisters and I was absolutely elated and through this

[00:35:56] then she helped me to arrange kind of a surprise meeting with my mother and sisters and the meeting didn't go as I had hoped you know, you have these visions that when you'll see the people that you love that are still inside of these high demand religions

[00:36:08] that somehow you'll be able to scoop them up and save them but it's far more complex and with that meeting though even though I didn't get to bring them home and they absolutely did not agree with me or my choices

[00:36:24] or the fact that I had even tracked them down I was able to give my phone number to two of my younger sisters and I hadn't seen them since they were children and just the experience of knowing that they were alive and letting them know I was alive

[00:36:38] but I also had to be very cognizant of the fact that they believed what was being told to them about who I was as well as my siblings and we were the worst of the worst of the worst and they had been carrying the weight that their family

[00:36:54] had put the profit in prison time goes on thank goodness my younger sisters each one of them made their own way out and that one touch point had allowed for them to have enough contact with us that it then served as the way

[00:37:10] for them to be able to reach out and find their way to leave but my mother has chosen to stay and I hadn't seen her for many years and a couple of years ago I had an opportunity where I was driving through the city that I had heard

[00:37:26] that she was staying at and I had an event happen that was a really close call and I was having that moment of like wow I could have died and I realized the only thing I wanted was to see my mother

[00:37:40] and it was very shocking to me because I hadn't seen her for so many years but I just reached out to the last phone number that I had ever heard that she had and I just told her I really wanted to see her and the stars aligned

[00:37:54] I guess you could say and there was this magical moment where she met me in a library in this place that she was staying and I remember walking up the stairs and she's sitting in front of these windows and I haven't seen her in a decade

[00:38:06] and so I wasn't sure what to expect but there is this beautiful woman there in pure white hair and the last time that I had seen my mother she had beautiful dark hair and it was just so crazy to see such a difference and to feel

[00:38:22] my heart this just melting because leading up to this I can promise you I had had every possible conversation with my mother in my head that you could have I had gone from judging her and hating her to being bitter to grieving her so deeply and to

[00:38:40] have come to all of this moment and to be there and to see her and to have all of that fade away and just to be able to hug her and say hello mother, I'm your daughter was such a powerful moment

[00:38:56] and to realize it didn't matter what she believed what matters is that she felt loved and appreciated and all the things that I could have said to her about why did you this and how dare you and you have no idea what you've done to me

[00:39:08] and your other children and to just hold space with her and of course she went on her thing you know I'm doing what the Lord wants me to do I'm here because I choose to learn as the prophet and to just listen and to say

[00:39:22] that's okay mom, you are on your journey and I'm on mine and to just watch her melt and her be able to to have a moment of being seen and I just had a chance to say I just want you to know that you're loved

[00:39:36] and I appreciate everything you did give me because as I get older I have these moments where I'm like oh I'm becoming like my mom in that I see the little threads of wisdom that she weaved into my life despite all of the struggles to do so

[00:39:54] and so yes, have I reconciled with my mom I think I've found peace with my mom and I always hold on to hope that she can somehow swirl back into my life but more than anything I just think of her every day and I just send her joy

[00:40:10] because I'm hopeful that somewhere in her life she gets to experience what joy and happiness can feel like but more than anything I wish her peace because she deserves it that's beautiful they'll be really healing for a lot of our listeners who are survivors who have loved

[00:40:26] ones still inside whatever they left the end of your book will give it away anything but you said that you hope that the book reaches women and young women especially and that they realize that they can reclaim what was theirs and that this is the power of choice

[00:40:40] and that it reaches the women around the world and I believe that's happening and I want to thank you for your time oh god, maybe you finish it I didn't mean to make you cry Sarah but it shows that we're all in this together

[00:40:54] I really believe tears are this cathartic connection point because to me tears are the true embodiment it's because we're feeling so deeply so I'm honored that you'll cry with me yes, I cry with you and I'm honored that you took the time to tell us this and rehash

[00:41:12] things that I know are so painful it just means a lot I feel very lucky to have met you and been introduced to you and that Nipi and I have this time to share your story with our listeners it's a real surface

[00:41:24] we'll have to come by the Crick oh please do come and see me down here we have a really great campground I'd love to invite you guys to come and explore in the spring you have merch not yet it's happening though but I will definitely have that going

[00:41:42] let us know I'll send you some merch as soon as we have it keep the Crick weird but you did say that and that's one thing I would love to say to listeners is when I wrote my book I had a singular focus

[00:41:56] and that is I just wanted the world to know what was happening but what I didn't realize is how that would touch women all over the globe and I wrote the book in 2008 it's been a while and men yes but to have the experience of people reaching out

[00:42:12] and saying thank you for sharing your story at first it was very overwhelming because I was not sure what to do with it and I didn't want to become my story and I had this internal debate that oh all I am is this victim and in reality

[00:42:28] the act of sharing is the most courageous thing anyone can do and I feel very lucky to be here and be able to share more with all the listeners and I encourage anyone that is listening keep sharing keep sharing in the journey

[00:42:44] keep sharing in the pain but more than anything keep sharing in the healing because that's where we all are as we're just trying to heal absolutely very passionate about that through the podcast, through hashtag I got out, through telling these stories and connecting it

[00:43:00] working our listenership find you or to follow what you're doing do definitely I'm still learning my particular approach to social media I'm not as good as some people it's hard hop over to Instagram and just follow me at elisa.wall that's E-L-I-S-S-A dot W-A-L-L

[00:43:18] you can also find me on Facebook but then I have a website that is just launching it's just elisawall.com and I invite people to follow because I am working on some really cool projects that are going to be coming up

[00:43:32] that I'm excited to bring into the world you know it's always every new project like a birthing process you have to bring it into the world and it's happening and so I'm so excited to share with each one of those as they come

[00:43:44] you know one of them is going to be Reclaiming Short Creek Thank you Nippy Are you documenting that Elisa? The Reclaiming of Short Creek Yes definitely not as much filming it right now as we're going to be starting our own podcast just called Reclaiming Short Creek

[00:44:00] Oh my god that's such a good idea Yes It's happening as I'm learning I'm not a podcaster by trade but it is so much fun to start this journey and to just let it be a journey so I admire you guys because it's its own

[00:44:18] learning curve. Yes, steep learning curve but it's fun. It is and I'm super excited to be a source for people from this background to be able to share their stories but then also be able to show what Reclaiming Short Creek has been like because it's pretty amazing

[00:44:34] Unbelievable well we'll be following that journey please let us know if there's anything we can do to help or support from here and we'll also send you some a little bit culty merch to thank you for being on the show. You could wear it

[00:44:46] or not. I love it. And you have friends and allies in us here so know that. Thank you and I'm so excited for when you come out here and get to experience it for yourself and maybe you'll do another episode but please come and visit

[00:45:00] and see it all. Sure. Count on it. Thank you my new friend. Thank you Alyssa. Thanks Sarah thanks Nippy. So that was our chat with Alyssa Wall Sarah I may have mentioned this on one of our Mormon episodes but when my great aunt died in 1998

[00:45:31] my dad has Mormon roots but they didn't really practice and she was buried and augned in Utah and we got a bunch of paraphernalia like stuff and I went back and I chased as a book that like trace back the legacy and had like a team photo

[00:45:47] like it was like 100 I'll have to find it for you but this is like in 19 early 1900s like 010203 and it has like some of my relatives ancestors I don't know which branch it went but like they were in jailbird outfits

[00:46:01] and it was like polygamy and they had wives and my dad and I kind of laughed at it at the time not thinking it was that serious but after seeing this and recognizing what you have to do to maintain that kind of culture

[00:46:15] you definitely go back to 1902-1903 and think for sure some of the stuff was going on and it's not a funny photograph anymore. No and also in reflection of our time at Nexium when Keith befriended I've got to get my facts right I'm not sure

[00:46:29] if it's an FLDS or just a polygamist I'm pretty sure it's the same offshoot but it was a polygamist Mormon community in, was it Chihuahua? Chihuahua, yeah. And some of those people came and took the trainings and I've since had verification from a former OG Inner Rank member

[00:46:45] that yes he pursued that community because he knew it would be easier to indoctrinate them into his lifestyle and some of those people still remain as members of their community and Nexium community. Yeah I guess that would be a war market for his abuse, right? Exactly.

[00:47:01] We'll dive a little deeper into that in Patreon. Yeah and I find Alyssa and her sisters bravery pretty like they're pretty amazing people. I can't wait to meet them, especially Alyssa. More on that coming up again thanks everybody for listening, thanks for leaving us hilarious

[00:47:17] voicemails we've been really enjoying them not all of them are hilarious, hilarious, meaningful, thoughtful, emotional voicemails thank you for supporting us with buying our merch, thank you for supporting us by purchasing from our sponsors with their codes and for writing those reviews it all helps

[00:47:33] keep this pod going. Any other house cleaning? No I think you cleaned house. Can you put my clipboard away? Bye everyone. Bye, see you next time. Hope you liked this episode. Let's keep the conversation going and come hang out with us on Patreon

[00:48:07] where we keep the tape rolling each week with special episodes just for Patreon subscribers and where we get deep into the weeds of unpacking every episode of The Val And if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet sweet swag or official ALBC podcast merch

[00:48:21] or a list of our most recommended Cult Recovery resources visit our website at alittlebitculti.com And for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called Scarred. The true story of how I escaped Maxim, the cult that found my life

[00:48:35] It's available on Amazon, Audible narrated by my wife and at most bookstores. A little bit culty is a talkhouse podcast and a Trace 120 production. We're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames with writing, research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy

[00:48:53] We're edited, mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of Sound and our amazing theme song, Cultivated is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin. Thank you for listening.