Stop the Presses: Vanessa Grigoriadis on NXIVM (Part 2)

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[00:00:25] We're just mortals trying to make a gluten-free, holistically helpful podcast that helps inform and entertains and maybe moisturizes silky silky smooth. Music Hey, everybody! Sarah Edmondson here and I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband.

[00:00:48] And you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, a.k.a. ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side. We've been there and back again, a little about us. True story, we met and fell in love in a cult.

[00:01:03] And then we woke up and got the hell out of Dodge. And the whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Val. Now, in its second season. I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium,

[00:01:17] the cult that bound my life. Look at us. A couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night where we interview experts and advocates in things like cult awareness and mind control. Oh, wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe.

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[00:01:50] everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level market. This stuff really is everywhere. The cultiverse just keeps on expanding. And so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms.

[00:02:07] Learn more at alittlebitculty.com. Welcome back everybody to part two of two with Vanessa Gregoriadis. This is a part two. So if you didn't listen to last week's interview with Vanessa, check that one out first. And as a reminder, Vanessa is a long-form journalist, host,

[00:02:39] podcaster, mother of two children and two parents. Her podcast, Infamous, takes a look at what it's been like to cover some of the most scandalous news stories in modern times. That's where this intersection is with Vanessa, where she worked as a journalist to cover Nexium.

[00:02:54] At that time back in 2018, Vanessa had actually been somewhat duped by the powers that be with Nexium. Well, I think to the point of the podcast, this is how predators work. Vanessa's open and her openness got leveraged.

[00:03:06] Right. On last week's episode, Vanessa spoke about being misled by the likes of Claire Bronfman and Nancy Salisman. Not so much Keith, but you let us know what you think. Today we continue to look back at what went down and how once again

[00:03:17] it's easy to be misled and brainwashed, even when you have no idea what's happening. Brainwashed. A little bit strong term there, but. Indoctrinated. Indoctrinated. Course of controlled. Yes. All the words that are going to get bastardized in the next two, three, four, five years. Right.

[00:03:30] Narcissist, gaslighting. Things like that. Okay. Enjoy. What I found so interesting about your series is listening to it. Like I remember talking to you and I remember feeling confident. The more questions she asked, I think we're going to seem who more we come off as

[00:04:00] more so than they. Right. Like I knew they were going to hang themselves because there was no gain for us. We did. And hearing what I was guessing was going on behind the scenes. Like there was literally no surprises in your thing.

[00:04:14] Like the playbook was so like, I was like, oh, that makes total sense. Like of course they did. Like they were so predictable. Claire's saying, oh, that's just lying. She's lying, lying, lying, lying. Right. But virtue signaling while she's threatening us. She's like, we have, I'm protect.

[00:04:31] She's like, we're protecting our A-list actors and our abilities. Because we want to protect them. As with every Tom, Dick and Harry, we have stuff on them. We have stuff on Sarah and Nippy that we could clean the floor with them with. Whatever that line was.

[00:04:43] You know that she said go to town. Did you just threaten us to destroy our lives while pretending to protect us in the same fucking sentence? I was like, the lack of awareness that's going on in that camp, it's like, go, I've had it. Right.

[00:04:56] Like it was just, they lost so much tusk and it was so predictable and it still is. Right. Totally. I know. I mean, somebody was saying to, I mean, it's just incredible to hear it from their mouths, right? Like it's incredible to hear it.

[00:05:09] What's that like for you? It's not a shock for me going back to the tapes and like listening to them again. Yeah. Like knowing what you know now, knowing what's come out and like playing that, like how do you feel? I was so deeply disturbed by the trial.

[00:05:23] Like I was deeply disturbed. I mean, I was deeply disturbed by everything. So away. I mean, it really fucked me up. I mean, I went a lot. It's like a mile from where I live. I was like, you know, I got to see what's happening here. Right.

[00:05:36] And the fact that there was no video and there was no audio in the courthouse. I mean, you know, I went from thinking like you probably have seen the transcripts or whatever of that when Claire was arranged and the judge went off on her. Right.

[00:05:52] For the $100 million bail and like, what is wrong with you? You know, like, what is wrong with you? And I mean, it's so fascinating just because like she's from this prominent, you know, big Jewish family and in New York, these things matter. Right.

[00:06:07] That's a very key thing to say, I think, like these things matter or whatever. But like these things matter and like people reached out to me after the article and they were like, you're joking me that this is the Bronfman girl. Like what?

[00:06:18] You know, like these are pillars of the temple. Like what is happening? And so I went from seeing Claire be arranged and being like, oh my God. Like this is real. These people are going to prison. Like there is no question. Everybody is burning, you know?

[00:06:35] Like and the idea that you're all standing by Keith, anybody connected to Keith is going to burn. Right. And then but having it as the trial played out reveal more and more of like Keith's utter and complete madness, you know, and the women who took the stand.

[00:06:55] I mean, again, I would say the women who took the stand were shockingly like articulate and just telling an incredible story. And like it goes back to this idea that you guys talk about all the time, which is like, who can be in a cult?

[00:07:14] Like who gets in a cult because you have this idea that it's just like brain dead people. Right. But it's not. And you know, I don't know. It was just it's it was I found it to be like one of the most disturbing.

[00:07:30] Like I had complete insomnia during that trial. I was just totally freaked out. Yeah. And I mean, I'm like freaked out. These people are in the world, you know, I got just freaked out by the whole thing. Yeah, I was too. It's so dark.

[00:07:44] At the same time I want, you know, some of them to have another life, right? Like, I mean, I feel both ways. I mean, I'm like some of them. We want all of them to have another life. I totally do. I totally. Yeah.

[00:07:54] For sure, Keith needs to stay in prison for the rest of his life. Part of this whole thing of why like when Mara reached out, I was like, yes, of course. And she was saying that you weren't sure, like how we feel about you.

[00:08:04] And I just want you to know, and I meant to say this at the beginning, I think I did actually like no hard feelings because for us, like anyone who goes, oh, shit, like this is bad, then we're fine with like we're all on the same page.

[00:08:16] Like, but there was a time we're informing people. Yeah, but there was a time as you know, we didn't trust you. And I just wanted to tell this backstory because I think it's interesting how it all played out.

[00:08:26] Like, and a lot of our fan base or survivors and a lot of them are just next year. We call them next year nerds. They're like obsessed with this story and they want to know all the details.

[00:08:35] And I just think this this part of history is so wild because, you know, as you know, the New York Times came out and I was on the cover. And then we had heard because we had friends still on the inside who were kind of playing

[00:08:45] both sides, right? And they were like, they're going to do a counterpiece. We were told that they were hiring you. That's so crazy. And I was like, I don't think they can do that. But that was sort of like how it was being pitched.

[00:08:56] Like they were curating the story. So we knew that this was happening. We knew that and my memory is fuzzy since five years ago and we were in trauma. So Nipi, you've correct me if I'm getting something wrong here. Like jump in anytime.

[00:09:08] But I was in trauma too. She was in trauma more. Well, maybe a little bit. We went in and out of different amounts. So we heard that you're writing the story and then we didn't know who it was.

[00:09:20] And then I guess through my PR, like I had to hire a PR team because I was getting so many requests and like I didn't know how to handle it and, you know, like Dateline and Inside Edition and Dr. Oz and 2020. Like it was everybody wanted to talk.

[00:09:32] So hired a PR team and they brought me to you and I think they kind of vetted you. But there was this whole internal, like we call them team takedown, the people who are out, we weren't on the same page because they,

[00:09:43] I believe you wanted to speak to us like Mark and Bonnie and Nipi and I. And I think, oh God, what happened the first time we connected or was it that your first time you connected with Mark? I don't remember, but there was something. I talked to Mark.

[00:09:56] Right. And the conversation you had with him led us all to believe that you had already been indoctrinated and that you were like brought into the fold and you were drinking the Kool-Aid and so they didn't trust you. And this is where we didn't have the same approach.

[00:10:12] I remember thinking, well, if she's drinking the Kool-Aid and she bought into the whole, you know, consenting adults narrative, then we need to tell her our side of the story, right? And fill you in. Right.

[00:10:22] Well, what happened from my again, like it's a little fuzzy for me as well, but from my perspective, I got everything I needed from Nexium. So I said, okay, great. Now I'll talk to the defectors.

[00:10:32] Now I didn't think you guys were going to be hard to talk to because I just assumed, well these people want to talk to everybody because they're trying to get the word out and they seem to be talking to everybody.

[00:10:43] So I don't think this is going to be a problem, right? And again, I think that's looking back on it, that was naive, right? So I believe reached out to Mark and Mark and I got on the phone,

[00:10:56] but I was also wary of what could be put on the Frank report or something else of what I would say because again, like I got what I needed from Nexium, but we still needed to like, you know, fact check the thing, finish the thing, blah, blah, blah.

[00:11:11] Like the best tactic for me was to have both sides talking to me and then put my piece out and that would be when Nexium found out what I thought, right?

[00:11:22] And so I talked to Mark, I mean, my recollection of it and Mark may have a different one is that he asked me who I talked to and I said, Lauren. And he was like, whoa, what? I remember now.

[00:11:37] That's probably the one person that you could have said that would have struck the fear of because she spends a good one. Right, right, right. Because she's smart. She's a smart one. Yeah, that was clear. She's super smart.

[00:11:46] Well, I'll also say this, she did a very, very good job at normalizing the abusive stuff because she had been in it for so long. So she really didn't believe it was bad. And she's cool.

[00:11:57] Like we pictured you and her hitting it off and we were like, oh, fuck. And now I remember. I remember. Her subtly dropping comments about our character. I remember what it was now.

[00:12:07] You guys spoke and Mark, even though we were all on the same side, like there was still a bit of the ranking system, like Mark was above, at least for me, like he's leaving the charge. He taught me one way, you still it otherwise.

[00:12:18] We disagreed, which is one of the first times that it happened since leaving. But I remember now. I remember now. So before you and I spoke and you guys had had that conversation and you said that

[00:12:27] you spoke to Lauren and he's like, whoa, in that whole timeframe, Bonnie found on the Frank report someone to take and snap. Right. Taking pictures. Oh, yeah. That's right. The summit at Upper Poe and she saw someone she didn't recognize in the crowd. Right.

[00:12:43] And it was you and she figured out it was you. And then she was like, oh my God, she's in there. She's infiltrated. She's like. I thought that as well though. Well, we all did. Yeah. I was like, fuck this. I fucked this.

[00:12:55] I'm not having a conversation under their terms. Because you were now an enemy, right? But the difference was is that I was still like, I'm going to talk to her. We still have the truth.

[00:13:04] Because I know that I have the truth and I know that if they're going to head fuck Vanessa and she's going to buy in because Lauren's so cool and hip and whatever, branding, blah, blah, you know, then I have to tell you.

[00:13:16] And so we did, but we did it off the record. And it was a huge turning point. I mean, for me, I would say, okay. Good. And what had happened was I said, I think to Mark, let me send you,

[00:13:27] I mean also it just was hard for me to understand. I was like, are you guys not reading what I write? Like I've written hundreds of articles that are like not like positive on a lot of different stuff, you know?

[00:13:38] But I sent the article that I had written about landmark to Mark without really looking at it again. And then when I went and looked at it, I was like, oh my God, there's like 10 quotes in here from Chuck Palinock.

[00:13:51] And like, that's how you pronounce his last name, like from the Fight Club writer and all these other people saying how great landmark form is. And that story was about like I attended landmark and went on the subway after one of the sessions.

[00:14:04] And I saw one of the guys who was in there and he was a refugee from Africa and a woman who had met him, you know, on the subway actually, I think had like just walked up

[00:14:17] to him on the subway and said, do you want to change your life? Like I'll pay for you to go to landmark form. And so he was sitting there and then I saw him on the subway and he and I started this whole conversation.

[00:14:29] And it was really this like interesting question of like, do you want to change your life? I mean, this guy is like living as like a Shabbos Goi and like he has nothing and like he's not looking at his personal growth.

[00:14:40] He's just trying to like day to day like feed himself, you know? So the question of landmark and like what are you really getting and who is it catering to and how deep are the questions are really asking was like very much part of that story.

[00:14:53] But I did what I normally do, which is I try to like, you know, do sweet and sour, right? Because I think that's much more effective. Like in a lot of storytelling, you know, you want the suspense.

[00:15:03] I mean, look at even the way the vowel season one is constructed. Like the whole thing, I mean, what I was amazed by is those first couple of episodes of the vowel. I was like, this feels like my journey being like, what is this thing?

[00:15:17] And they're trying to explain it to you through graphics and through you guys coming in. But it's so incredibly like or neat and complex. And it's like looking at this big, you know, expression as painting or something. You're like, what is this?

[00:15:30] So for me, I felt like, okay, well, Mark will, you know, everybody can look at this landmark story and they can see that this is not a positive story. But I wasn't at that point planning to put in like a million incredible quotes

[00:15:44] by like Lauren, like saying, this is the greatest thing ever. I mean, I was going to do some of that, but I wasn't. So anyway, whatever. It basically just like I was there at the coach summit. Like they invited me to go.

[00:15:56] I was extremely happy to be there. And I'm so glad you did. To see the whole situation. And you know, as I do, like in my podcast, I think that one of the big moments where I was just so thoroughly sick of them was during the coach summit,

[00:16:10] I was standing in their like sort of halfway backstage and they had an iron out and an ironing board to like iron on. Do the sash stripes. The sashes. And in the main room, Allison had a bunch of the Mexicans there and she was like,

[00:16:25] everybody we're going to play charades. Like this is how you play charades. And I was just like, you know what? I'm done. I'm out of here. I can't do this one more minute. Like I can't do this anymore. Right. Like I just, I can't be in here.

[00:16:39] Like this is such a charade, you know. And we know the feeling. Oh yeah. All right. There we go. Imagine having to sit in that room with those orange chairs and the bad lighting for 12 to 14 hours a day for eight days. Right. Yes.

[00:16:53] People think that you can't be indoctrinated or brainwashed, try sitting in apropos in that environment talking about what is the difference between honor and character? Right. And can we at least do some like cross-minute at the same time so we can get in shape or like

[00:17:07] it's like to starve ourselves and run later. Yeah. I used to leave and like pretend to go pick up Troy or like have an emergency so that I could just go for a walk as I was like losing my mind. So listen, I get it.

[00:17:19] But then you got on the phone with me. I mean basically what happens is like there's this sense like no, they're not talking to you. And I was like, what? Why don't we have a peace without them? So they have to talk to me.

[00:17:32] This is the golden age of cult recovery. The more we speak up and share our stories, the more we realize we are not alone. Your voice and your story can empower others.

[00:17:44] This is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I got out movement. Learn more at I got out.org. The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family, but everything wasn't as it seemed.

[00:18:05] I just had a 12 year old boy so up here asking for help. He's emaciated. He's got tape around his legs. Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives.

[00:18:24] Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are your self-care non-negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga. Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. That's my personal and everyone's dream, isn't it? Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables.

[00:18:44] Like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature. Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it. Nature is a non-negotiable. Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel

[00:18:56] not great, not myself, not grounded. Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks. I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it.

[00:19:06] It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need. Like, I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people.

[00:19:16] You know what I mean? Thanks therapy. Thanks for helping me see that. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist

[00:19:30] and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Look, even when we know what makes us happy, it's hard to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever. Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp.

[00:19:44] Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H-E-L-P dot com slash culty. So we weren't talking to you because Mark had decided that it because you said that you were only speaking to Lauren and we knew that that wasn't true,

[00:20:02] they didn't trust you. In my mind, it was when he said, first of all, look, a lot of journalists, if somebody says who are you speaking to, the answer is supposed to be, I can't tell you.

[00:20:12] But I'm speaking to a lot of people and I'll make sure I'm fair, right? Like that's the answer. But I was like, okay, let me tell them. So I said, Lauren, and my recollection was I was like, he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[00:20:24] And I was like, why better stop right there? Right. Listen, we all were paranoid for different reasons. I mean, and I was probably, yeah, us probably more so. And listen, Nippy and I discussed whether we were able to share this with you,

[00:20:37] but we felt like we needed to come clean. We were so paranoid, especially because we weren't sure if you were a plant or hired because we thought you might be hired. That was one of the theories. And we said that we weren't going to record our conversation.

[00:20:47] We did record our conversation. Ah, okay. And we didn't show, we just wanted to tell you because we felt bad about that because that would be an example of an ethical lie, which we talked about in the future. Well, I wasn't playing by anyone's rule.

[00:21:02] We were like, fuck you. I'm doing the fuck about that. Fuck not you, Claire. I'm protecting my family. I'm going to do this. Yeah. No, we didn't show it to anybody. It was just to like, in case it was protective. It was in case, you know.

[00:21:12] Well, I mean, to me, the big turning points for me was first of all, talking to you and when you told me about the grandmasters, because I didn't know that to that point. And you said what they called them grandmasters.

[00:21:24] I was like, this one's a master of them. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like how does this really work? And at that point, I think I had had Keith telling me, you know, I have sex with one, maybe two people who are in DOS.

[00:21:37] Like I don't really, you know, I know them. I mean, I'm more intimate, but it's not sexual and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just remember you like laying that out and you were like, oh honey, this is not.

[00:21:49] Like this is, I mean, I probably didn't say to you like, I don't understand. But like that's what was going on. I was like, I don't really understand and can't accuse this man of sex crimes. Plus I'm sure, remember this is all like pre-indictment, right? Right.

[00:22:05] So talking to you was a big, like a big shift for me because I had talked to Rick Ross, but you know, Rick Ross is like, Rick Ross's role in this whole cult scene is so fascinating

[00:22:18] to me and like who pays his bills and how that all works. And his role is just to be like a spear, right? Just to say like, this is really bad. Everybody listen to this, pay attention over here.

[00:22:30] So it was like, okay, well, you know, fine, you were involved also in this major lawsuit, but like I need to get closer in. And the other person who I think felt burned by my story because I didn't use that much of her,

[00:22:42] unfortunately, and the part that we used was maybe not the part you wanted to, was Barbara Boucher. Barbara. Was incredibly helpful to me. Yeah. Like incredibly helpful. And I feel bad that that happened and it's one of those things that happens like when you're

[00:22:55] closing a piece, blah, blah, blah. But like the two of you that I felt were leveling with me that were trustworthy, that were smart and could explain like why this Fakata philosophy was not like making- Do you know what Fakata means? Am I dumb?

[00:23:12] Like why don't I understand this philosophy? You know, like no, it makes no sense. Like that was helpful. That makes me happy because it was a risk. We were both pretty clear that, you know, truth was on our side and that we could,

[00:23:27] you know, we could fill you in. We're like, I might to fill you if, like, if Ines has been head fucked and brought in. And I could tell in the languaging that you were using with me that you had been-

[00:23:37] I mean, we knew that because of some of the ways that you spoke, which is fair enough. And actually, even when your article came out, we still disagreed. They're like, see? She did it.

[00:23:47] I'm like, no, this is proof that, you know, a smart journalist can see the good of it. It shows that anybody can get wrapped up in something like this. This is a win. That's a great point. This is a win. I felt really great about your article.

[00:24:00] It was like, this is a win. Other people didn't- Yeah. I mean, I felt like, look, I think it goes back to what I said at the beginning, which is like if I had this all to do over after the trial, would I have written a different story?

[00:24:11] Yes. Do I think the story I wrote was actually a really important part of this history of nexium? Yes, I do. And I don't agree that it's like a paid-for story or I think that- No, of course not.

[00:24:25] I've sort of keyed in that a lot of the more serious journalists who have been on the story who read this, look, of course everybody, so many people wish they could have sat down with Keith and had him one on one and really made him answer for this.

[00:24:44] And I didn't do that. Right? And I have to own that. I didn't do that. But you didn't know what you were looking at. I didn't know what I was looking at, but also like I believed that eventually they were just going to open it up. Right?

[00:24:58] I kept on being like, so if I believe more of this, you will open up more. And indeed when I said to Lauren, look, I think you're not empowering women. I think what you're doing is hurting women.

[00:25:11] I think you're actually not just saying, let's look at the ways women are weak. You're actually encouraging them to be weak. It did turn into one of those like flying monkey situations where Nancy came up to me and was like, what were you saying to Lauren?

[00:25:27] You know what I mean? Like everybody was like, she said something to Lauren. She said something to Lauren. And I was just like, wait, even this much criticism? Like you guys are not down? That's a great example because you couldn't-

[00:25:39] if you had said anything like that as a student, you would have had for sure. And Nancy bringing you and giving you an AM. Why do you think it's important for you to question this right now? What's going on for you? You know, like that's so clear.

[00:25:49] And so you experienced it. That is total flying monkey 101. Yeah. I think that there were things about maximum that drew people in. And I think that people needed to experience a story that- Look, the cover of this magazine story, I believe, said something like

[00:26:07] Keith empowered women by making them feel they were in control. Right? But they were basically like slaves of his was the sort of takeaway, right? That like mind trick and you needed to show the trick, right? To have the effect of it.

[00:26:23] Now, all that being said, I would say the thing that I- Well, I think there's two separate things. First of all, my perspective when people were like, she should have said this and this and this. I was like, you should have told me then, right?

[00:26:35] Because this is not a clip job. This is the New York Times. And in the New York Times, we do primary sourcing. And if you aren't telling me that directly, and I cannot write your name down on a piece of paper for our standards committee to read,

[00:26:51] then I cannot put it in the article. And I think maybe I should have- I did say that a bunch of times, but I should have been maybe more clear about like, this is going out the door. And if I don't get these things from people,

[00:27:03] like they will not be in the story. But regardless, the thing, you know, I do feel that at the time there was a sense like, well, she wrote the big article on Nexium and she didn't mention this, this, this and this.

[00:27:16] Now we all couldn't have known that everything was going to come out on the trial and all those things were going to be mentioned and every secret was going to be out there, right? So eventually that was all sort of came out in the wash.

[00:27:26] I do feel however that, you know, when we did the photography, Keith and Claire, I believe flew down somebody from Albany, which I knew and I saw the photos and, you know, my thought was like, oh my God, they look so creepy. Like this is sort of great.

[00:27:42] They're so creepy. You know, we ran those photos, which I mean, look, we're coming to photograph you. Like you can do what you want, present yourself how you want. We're not here to tell you what makeup person to hire. We're not hiring a makeup person for you.

[00:27:56] This is how you want to present yourself. I would have gone back and advocated for, you know, I don't like write the captions or the headlines or anything like that, but I would have gone back and said, like we should make clear. They hired somebody.

[00:28:11] You know, this is not what they looked like when I saw them. Just because, you know, they wanted to look so businessy. It was like, we're business people. We're very put together business people, which I thought was great, but still.

[00:28:24] I never saw Claire, Claire never looked like that. Right. Like not in a fleece. Keith ever wore a suit. Right. Exactly. So that was, you know, that was part of the theater of the thing for them. And I would have wanted to point that out.

[00:28:40] Anything else you would have done differently? I mean, obviously we'd all do things differently knowing what we know now, but given that you were being lied to. Yeah, it was still wisdom. Given that you were being lied to. Yeah.

[00:28:51] I mean, I think again, if that story was three times as long, I would have put myself more in it. I would have explained where, more of where I was coming from. I would have like probably really gotten into Eduardo and Michelle

[00:29:09] and explained more the campaign like against me. And I would have figured out what to do about Keith. Because really I used like a few quotes from Keith. Right. Like because I felt that he was so useless when I was talking to him

[00:29:26] that there was no way to get him into the story. But I think how do I get to do over? I would have really figured out how to put that on the page. Like the degree to which you're facing somebody who is just not making any sense. Right.

[00:29:47] And that that was part of the misdirection. And I mean, you know, the DOS stuff, I don't know. I mean, it's so hard. Like I guess I would have put more about that in there. I guess I would not have put Sarah in at all.

[00:30:01] You know, I think that I like Sarah. Sarah, right? Sarah, right? Sarah, right? Sarah, right? Yeah, yeah. Sarah, yeah. Sarah, yeah. She made you good eggs, right? She made me eggs. Yeah. And like, you know, what I've put in the stuff about her

[00:30:15] and the like Dalai Lama's emissary, I don't know. It sort of goes back to what I said before, which is this was a moment in time that I got like a weird vision of these people, right? Because it really was a few months.

[00:30:27] Like I reported for a couple of months with them, then you and I talked to Sarah and, you know, and then I talked to a few other people. And then the indictments came down, right? And then we rushed the piece out.

[00:30:37] So for me, it's like a snapshot of a moment in time. There's a million different things I wish I could have put in there now. And I think on the balance was probably a little too sweet, right? Like in terms of that sweet and sour,

[00:30:51] I would have reconnected the balance a little bit, although I do think it was like sort of effective. It was, yeah. I don't think anyone's going to read that and be like, I want to try it, you know? Like, it's definitely like, this is scary.

[00:31:04] It wasn't the puff piece that they had thought that they were getting from. And the photographs didn't help. I'm telling you right now, the photographs for like, even if you had to read, to me, that was one of the most bizarre things about it. Because they weren't authentic.

[00:31:17] They weren't authentic, right? And then they were. They looked bizarre. They looked like wax figures or something. They did. They did. They really did. His eyes were weird and watery. Like, I was like, what is this? Well, that's how they are anyway. Vanessa, I have one question here.

[00:31:30] As it pertains to Sarah, did you speak with Sarah? And then like, what do you think her responsibility is in this from Miran? What did she know and all that stuff? I would love to know. I mean, my feeling was, Sarah was brought there to meet me, right?

[00:31:46] Like, she came to Albany to meet me and to vouch for Claire. I don't know. Like, why was Nikki not indicted? Like, what is the truth about Sarah? How out was she? Because she certainly told me she was more out than she really was. And she was.

[00:32:00] She was doing all the rainbow garden stuff. What do you think her responsibility is? I don't know what she knew and when she knew. So I can't really speak from that. But I do think the person that she talked about,

[00:32:10] the Dalai Lama's and all those people in the world, would be a little bit more sensitive to abuse that happened. And with your resources, go and fix the abuse that happened and clean up your mess. To me, that's the road to vindication in your own internal world

[00:32:23] and in the eyes of the world. And instead it's just distancing yourself and then not correcting the narrative when Keith blatantly lied when they released her statement and not really being sensitive to how it affected other people's lives and just going back and not doing anything about it.

[00:32:38] That seems to be an obvious. But isn't it a can enable situation where? It's always going to be that. You can't avoid that. I mean, I think if I had the opportunity she had with her resources to maybe at least go,

[00:32:49] hey look, what did I participate in here? Is a noble move. Just start there. Yeah, maybe she will do that after Claire's. I know maybe. I don't know. I think if I were her, I'd make sure my sister was okay first thing first.

[00:33:01] And I think that's going to be a battle at some point. Anyway, that's just my impression of it. And I'd love to see her do it. Well, how do you two feel about Claire? How do you two feel about Claire now?

[00:33:12] Knowing that she had this sort of campaign of terror against you, but now she got a pretty significant sentence. Yet she hasn't renounced Keith. She hasn't owned these mistakes as far as I know. I don't know if you both have knowledge that I don't.

[00:33:30] If I could press a button and she would just go live a positive life, turn it around whatever, and she could make something out of her life, I'd press it in a second. This is never about revenge or anything like that.

[00:33:42] But it also presents to me a little bit of a danger because if she's still thinking and feeling those ways and she has resources, then she's demonstrated she's willing to use and abuse to right what she thinks is wrong. I look over my shoulder a little bit

[00:33:54] because she has the means. So I don't know. I don't know what we're looking at. And I don't know who she blames for her problems. But I know it was us at one time and we were in our crosshairs and she hired a private investigator.

[00:34:04] So why wouldn't I be scared of that? It's smart for me to be scared of that. Similar, just like if Lauren wrote me an apologized, it was instant forgiveness because she took responsibility. Claire still hasn't taken responsibility and can't admit that she has made mistakes

[00:34:21] and we all made mistakes under a false premise until she's willing to acknowledge that. Then I'm not going to say I'm scared. I don't live in fear. But if she gets out of jail, I'll, you know, I don't know what we have to do.

[00:34:35] I have to cross that bridge. But I hope by then, she will have had time in prison to think about it and maybe being away from him and away from his, you know, the tentacles in her brain, she'll recapitulate,

[00:34:50] which is a nexium word for like figuring it out. Right. Yeah. So I hope so. I mean, I don't think anyone signed up for this. I'm rooting for that. I'm rooting for her too. For obvious reasons. I've thought about sending her some books,

[00:35:03] some cult recovery books in prison from an obviously not from me because I'm sure she hates me. But and that's like the back to your series, like thank goodness you had that audio footage because I do think it fills in a lot of gaps

[00:35:17] and reflects what you said earlier, like the moment in time, even though we know now that it's a totally different picture and they were painting a whole tapestry of lies for you thinking that the world would buy it. To hear that, it's quite remarkable.

[00:35:31] And I wasn't, it wasn't that upsetting like Nippy said. It's like what we heard was being said. Right. From people who are still and. Yeah. I guess that's my question. It was what they told me was what they were telling people who are still and basically, right?

[00:35:44] Yeah, I know. And also partly we curated that. Like we said earlier, we curated our exit. So we knew to a degree what was going to be said. But to hear like Claire saying, well, Sarah saw two people being branded. So there was no surprise there.

[00:35:59] Like somehow that makes it better that I wasn't surprised or you know, even if I did enjoy it in the moment, which I had to pretend to as if we all know now doesn't change anything that they were lying about Keith's initials. Like it's just, it's just so.

[00:36:12] It's so circular in conversation. So it gets a little tiresome. But I think, you know, Vanessa to frame it in a way is like the world is just understanding how like awful this is. And they're educating themselves on it and they're seeing it in a lot of arenas.

[00:36:26] And you're part of that process. Your article is part of that process. So it's important to see it and see it and see the education of people and how there's still, when you have a dark forest right in front of you,

[00:36:38] you feel it but you don't see it. It's fucking weird, man. And people I think can start to become more sensitive to that. And I think we'll have an interesting outcome and evolution. I think these conversations are vital if they're in that lane, right? Without the sensationalism.

[00:36:51] Because you got close to it and you got, it was weird. It was really weird. Yeah. You know, have you recovered? Right. It was fucking weird. Yeah. Have you recovered, do you think? Yeah, I think I've pretty much recovered. I think, you know,

[00:37:01] really during the trial was the time that I just felt like I couldn't believe that I'd been that close to something that evil. Particularly all the Camilla stuff that came out and just, I still, you know, sort of shake my head when I see articles

[00:37:21] about Nikki in the paper and I don't know what to think of it or what to do. I mean, and I think to myself like, what is the press's role here? You know, I don't know. What do you think when you see all those stories?

[00:37:39] I just leave it alone. Yeah. I guess it was an inevitability, right? Like it was an inevitability that there were just going to be people left out of the prosecution and that was part of what was going to happen. And look, I do, I'm sure that some conversations

[00:37:54] went on behind the scenes that were pretty nutty, right? I think the best thing for anyone is just to leave them alone. We're not going to be able to tell them anything they've ever already seen. It's not about me and the hardest thing

[00:38:05] is disciplining yourself to not indulge their narrative and give them, I just can't. I can't do anywhere out of the energy. What was the thing looking back that chaps your ass the most about your experience with Nexium? Well, you know, when I was closing down the piece

[00:38:19] and these people were indicted, I remember vividly talking to Keith's attorney and I was like, okay, you guys are going with sex with one or two people end off. Like you're going with that, you know? You're going with that. That's your final answer. And he said yes.

[00:38:35] And I said, I can't believe you're actually just like, you don't want to really like shift this around here now. So just like the continual gaslighting. Again, like the gaslighting and but just, I mean, I was willing to hear Keith out

[00:38:52] as a person who would say, I'm polyamorous. I have a harem like let's do this. Let's get into this. Like let's talk about like your sexual needs and your wants and your desires and what is your fucked up thing.

[00:39:05] Now I assumed it was going to be like just a kinky thing, right? I didn't realize it was like a fully hardcore criminal situation. But his just like inability, I don't know. I just felt like forget about your sexual shame right now.

[00:39:22] You are about to go to prison for life. Like say something, save yourself. I'm opening this up. I couldn't have made it easier for you. And maybe that's a sort of dumb journalist thing, which is like, come on, where's the scoop? Come on guy.

[00:39:41] But to me, it just has always stuck in my mind. Like wow, you really thought I was that much of a pansy, I guess. Do you think that Agnifolo changed his tune by the end because he were there in trial?

[00:39:52] Like do you think he woke up to the shenanigans of KR? I think that, you know, Agnifolo is an attorney who I would assume is bound by attorney client privilege. And, you know, I think he's not his attorney anymore for a reason.

[00:40:08] And I think he did what he had to do, but he had a real weak case and he has to have known that. You know, he has to have known that. So I would have a hard time believing that anybody on the defense

[00:40:23] didn't have the exact same spirits that I had, right? Which is, you know, this is what criminals do, right? They lie to their defense attorneys too. And then they got to walk through the fire with them, go, you've got to tell me everything.

[00:40:34] Like that part of law and order is true. Please tell me everything. So once they realized what the truth was, I mean deeply, deeply disturbed by it, I have to believe that they all were very deeply disturbed by it and also probably realized they were going to,

[00:40:51] they were, you know, had a losing ticket here. I mean, anybody that I talked to who was close with the case was immediately knowledgeable. We got this. No hulking it out, all you little hulksters. And if you need some helpful resources on the topic of cult recovery,

[00:41:22] check out our website at a littlebitculty.com. And now here's a brief message from our sponsors. Nature is a non-negotiable. Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me, and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded.

[00:41:58] Therapy Day is a bit like my nature walks. I try to not miss it. And I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it. It helps me put my worries and anxieties

[00:42:09] in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need. Like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people. You know what I mean? Thanks, Therapy!

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[00:42:45] Visit BetterHelp.com slash culti today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culti. Meals bring people together, but for many families, providing their next meal can be a challenge. You can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry Food Drive.

[00:43:03] All proceeds go toward local food banks and families. Now through January 31st, you can purchase an icon in store or online, or watch out for the blue Feeding the Hungry shelf tags. Where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries.

[00:43:18] Together, we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's. So the FBI didn't plant evidence? I mean, I haven't thought of that all thing, to be honest. But yeah, I mean, look, if there's anything they could have used to get out of this verdict,

[00:43:36] like they would have used it at this point. Right. Right? Yeah. So they had no defense. The defense was the consenting adults. So the problem with that defense is nobody was knowledgeable about what was happening to be consenting. There was no consent.

[00:43:53] Like the mind fuck took away the consent. Yeah, you can't consent when you're being lied to. Consent 101. And in terms of the word salad, yeah, I think it's just that, you know, you hear Claire say like, I have a very potent father.

[00:44:06] You know, I definitely remember the potency and like what that was all about. Oh my gosh. He used that mostly for men or how that all worked. And the tantrum, you know, Sarah had a tantrum, Barbara had a tantrum, everybody was constantly having tantrums.

[00:44:20] Edgar Bronfman had a tantrum. Oh my God, their had a tantrum, right. It's like how belittling, how fucking belittling? You're having a tantrum, you're just a baby having a tantrum. No, I'm angry because anyway. Well, if a tantrum takes down your company, right.

[00:44:35] How good is your company really? And also, it's my tantrum. How good is your company that you need another company within the company to use the tools to make your company work? I know we have like one minute.

[00:44:45] Any questions for us that like we're burning for you this whole time that you've always wanted to know? Well, I guess it's like, you know, do you think there's still more to know? Yes. What more is there to know?

[00:44:54] I mean, I know there are so many people who haven't spoken, right? Like and they each have their individual stories. There's so many people. Yeah. I mean, there's other, so many other stories of abuse, people who left even before we got in who experienced stuff.

[00:45:07] Yeah, I think there's way more. And then like ran for the hills. Women who were abused. Because you think about, and we've talked about this in the podcast a lot, when he brought the women down for the commitment ceremony,

[00:45:16] like the group sex blow job thing, his whole thing and not just there was to humiliate women so that like for them to come forward, they have to expose that and admit that they did X, Y, and Z as well. And that's what keeps people quiet.

[00:45:32] It's like a type of another level of collateral, right? Right. Well, I know like, okay. So, Kristin Keefe, I mean, amazing has come out. And I mean, she has such a prismatic, you know, incredible view on everything. She's got a great mind.

[00:45:45] But do you think that down the line, we're going to see books or podcasts or whatever from Allison? From not just Nancy on the vow, but like Lauren. I hope so. I hope so. I don't think Lauren, I think Lauren's gone back to her life

[00:46:01] and just wants to move on. I hope, I mean, I hope Allison, depending on how she handles this when she comes out, could totally turn it around and, you know, tell her story and write a book or whatever she wants to do and all the power to her.

[00:46:12] I think, I just want everyone to be happy, you know, which is what we signed up for in the first place. But do you think the shame of it for her will be too? Oh, I don't know. I mean, maybe she'll like move to an island

[00:46:24] and raise llamas or something. Depends what she feels responsible to as well in a lot of ways. You know, I think right now she's in a place where she can be responsible to her own healing. And then I think she'll figure out whatever wisdom comes from that

[00:46:35] I hope she shares, you know, if that's her journey. But in answer to your question, I think there's lots to discover about why these women died, why so many of them had these surprising cancers. And I, you know, I have my own theories about that in my book

[00:46:49] and I have to be careful. And where's the $65 million that he quote lost? Right, right, right. Oh, you don't believe it was really lost. Oh, look, somebody got it. I don't think that guy fucking knows the truth. I don't think he knows the truth.

[00:47:02] I think he knows the truth and he'll purposely say every sentence. Like just hearing that little bit with Alison Mack about how did you feel about that? And she said, this is how I feel. He's like, what, you thought I just met you? I wasn't asking that.

[00:47:15] He was asking her that. The gaslighting in that quote. And she was answering the question honestly, not from a narcissistic place. And he flipped it on her. Right. Yeah. That shit, man. Yeah. That shit's like fucked up. You know what I mean? And like he's always doing that.

[00:47:30] So why wouldn't he lie about where $65 million are? Yeah. I think there's probably a lot to do with the money. And I think people, you know, somebody wrote, I think in NPR about this, like, where's the money? Where's the role of the money and all this?

[00:47:43] And I think it is something that's really interesting. Like where is the money? What did they use it for? How did it work? And what was the role of money in like attracting people like you guys to it? Not that you were going to make money

[00:47:55] that was going to help you with your life, but just that, oh my God, if there's people who have so much money and have every option in the world open to them, why would they be here? Like that's their, that's your lift.

[00:48:07] Like that is something that you look twice at. You go, well, okay, if the Bronfons could do anything, why would they do this? It must be great. Great point. You know? And just figuring that all out. But I definitely heard bits and pieces

[00:48:22] from Claire about, you know, different issues with money. Tell our listeners where they can find you. I have a podcast out called Infamous and it is sort of an anthology of some of my old work and it has a bunch of episodes in there

[00:48:36] about my experience interviewing Nexium called The Last Days of Nexium. And it's when I went down to Mexico and to Albany and interviewed the whole clan of criminals who are currently imprisoned before the indictment. Amazing. And it is a fantastic lesson. Listen to it twice. Thanks.

[00:48:56] I'm so glad that we were able to do this. I mean, I knew that you would want to hear it, but I also really appreciate you having me on to talk about it. And I mean, I was kind of like, is this going to be super triggering

[00:49:07] or is this going to be super interesting or both? Both. Or how always like, yeah. Both. Yeah. But that's part of our journey. Look, it's obvious we're in parallel lanes of informing people. So as long as it's about that, I mean, those conversations are great

[00:49:22] comparing contrasting those things are fun and beneficial. So thank you. I'm glad we're all on the same team. Thank you for doing what you're doing too. You guys are amazing. Like, amazing. I mean, thank God for podcasting, right? Right. Nobody would know that now, right?

[00:49:38] Who knew in 2017 that this was going to save everybody? You guys are so, I mean, your podcast is so good and the way that people have, everybody thinks you're friends. You know what I mean? You're like, everybody's friends. Well, we would have been. That's the whole thing. Yes.

[00:49:53] And we've met some amazing people. It's been such a like the silver linings that have come out of this shit show debacle, aka Nexium, has been like, you know, kind of wouldn't change anything because here we are. Life is good. So strange. Yeah, it's an interesting life.

[00:50:10] At least you can say that. It's an interesting life. All right. Thanks a lot. Cheers to that. And we really appreciate it. Okay. Take care. Thank you, Vanessa. Awesome. What'd you think, Ned? I think it's an informative episode and Vanessa does a great job.

[00:50:36] Staying in the lane of informing people. And just so everyone knows, we were approached by someone who shared with us that Vanessa wasn't quite sure how we felt. And after listening to her episodes, it's clear that she's in the lane of informing people.

[00:50:52] And as long as she was doing that, we're congruent in our missions. We're allies. Yeah, we're allies. And it reminded me like, I think part of what felt so good to have this conversation is that it reminded me of a time where it was like,

[00:51:02] you're either in or you're out. You're either with us or you're against us, which sucks because it didn't leave room for the nuance of like, I believe you, but like this is my whole community. I can't just leave. And knowing what I know now,

[00:51:14] it was like the flip side of the us versus them mentality. Yeah, that's a good point. You know, we learned that, I think from Yanya Lalich who helped us, it's like a lot of cult survivors go from us versus them to another us versus them. Us versus them.

[00:51:25] We're just the them now. And they are the us, but we're just on the other side. And if I could have done things differently, I would have, you know, I can't do anything differently. But it's just something to learn about. Yeah, you weren't going to do anything

[00:51:34] who were in that psychology, but I don't think Vanessa necessarily was, and she's later shared that her conversation with you helped. Yeah. Right? That was key. So it ended up being a good decision. Is there any other nuggets that you felt were really interesting

[00:51:47] or really profoundly you wanted to share? Well, I thought their strategy, like she said they made such a big deal of my tantrum. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah. God, I wish I could have been a fly on the wall at some of those meetings. I got.

[00:51:58] Maybe we will someday get access to the audio. Be a fly on the wall for those meetings? I think that's come and gone. Do you believe in reincarnation? It's good to know that that ended up having a positive effect. So that's it.

[00:52:09] You know, I think there's going to be more from Vanessa at some point, but for sure give her a serious listen. Yes. For people who are like serious, especially Nexium nerds, and they love to like try to figure out the psychology

[00:52:23] of all these people and the level to which people in Nexium were lying to the outside world, it's all there in terms of how Alice Mack was set up. I think Claire is going to be the most disturbing because she's the one that nobody's really had access to.

[00:52:35] I think most people have seen kind of Alice and Mack heard her statements, everyone else. Claire has been somewhat hit. Claire is just disturbing. Yeah. I think you're right. And I think it'll be interesting for people to understand why we were afraid

[00:52:45] in the way that we were afraid and continue to be. I think so too. And we're going to end now, but we're going to include a couple of highlight clips at the end of this. And then we encourage you to go download the whole series.

[00:52:57] But here's some of our favorite clips before we sign off. And thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week. Bye. Bye. Here you go. From a very young age, it was just something that I loved. I loved horses more than anything.

[00:53:09] I loved horses and I loved the connection with them. And so I would spend a lot of time with them. And I just was spent more time in the stable than in the house. It was easier those things that were going on in the house that were difficult.

[00:53:24] Do you still ride? You know, it was an interesting thing. I went through the Olympic trials in 2004. And I faced a question that was very hard for me. I had a new horse. He was difficult. And when I would become nervous about something, he would literally just stop.

[00:53:44] And my trainer at the time said to me, you have to take a stick and you have to beat the shit out of him. You have to do it once. And if you do it strong enough and hard enough once,

[00:53:56] then I'd have to do it again and you'll be okay. And I couldn't. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. So I said, you know, there's got to be another way. And he said, I don't know another way. And I said, well, if it means, you know,

[00:54:09] winning the Olympics or this is the end of my career, I can't in good conscience be on the Olympic team knowing I beat the shit out of one of my horses is just not something I can do. I mean, it's interesting because I actually,

[00:54:22] you know, my father had a tantrum. We have A-list actresses who have taken our programs. We have loyalty that's taken our programs. We have ex-presidential families that have taken our programs. Plus the regular Tom Dick and Harry, you know, like we respect people's privacy.

[00:54:40] And that's important to us. And believe me, if we didn't, there's a lot that we could have done. And we understand, we know so much about all of our adversaries. We have so much of, so much shit that we could go to town with

[00:54:53] and we won't do that. For example, you know, there's a video of Sarah Emerson's branding and, you know, it's such a lie. Hope you liked this episode. Let's keep the conversation going and come hang out with us on Patreon, where we keep the tape rolling each week.

[00:55:33] Special episodes just for Patreon subscribers and where we get deep into the weeds of unpacking every episode of the VAL. And if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet, sweet swag or official ALBC podcast merch or a list of our most recommended cult recovery resources,

[00:55:48] visit our website at alittlebitculti.com. And for more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page-turning memoir. It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that found my life. It's available on Amazon, Audible, Narrated by My Life, and at most bookstores.

[00:56:03] A Little Bit Culty is a talkhouse podcast and a Trace 120 production. We're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nipy Ames with writing, research, and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy. We're edited, mixed, and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of Citizens of Sound,

[00:56:20] and our amazing theme song, Cultivated, is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin. Thank you for listening.