The Cult of True Crime: Terry Dunn Meurer and "Unsolved Mysteries"

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[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_04]: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy, Ames.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_04]: A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_04]: You might even already be in a cult.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Oops. You better keep listening to find out.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello everybody.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_03]: What up, ALBC listeners?

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Sarah wanted to start this episode with a little chit-chat.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Well...

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going to kick it to you first for the chit-chat.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_04]: We just haven't had time to chit-chat with our audience recently.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_04]: We've just...

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like we've finally settled into the fall season.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Everything's underway.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_04]: The dust has settled and...

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Troy's 4-0.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: 4-0.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the Bulldogs.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_04]: 4-0.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm...

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Woof, woof.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_04]: ...definitely a football mom.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And we had some time this week to watch some TV that wasn't cult-related, necessarily.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_04]: It was in the true crime space, but it wasn't about a cult.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So that was a big win, I think.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Cue music.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Unsolved mysteries.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Before we get to that, I will also say that I watched something completely unrelated called

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Nobody Wants This with Kristen Bell and Adam Brody.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: That sounded like a porn.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I just also thought it was Adrian Brody, and I was waiting for Adrian Brody to show up

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_04]: as the rabbi, and he never came.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And then I realized that Adam Brody was...

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_03]: How many episodes in did you get?

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Two episodes.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I was waiting for Adrian Brody.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_03]: That's fantastic.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Adam Brody's amazing, and also really nice to watch something not cult-related.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And yet also, Kristen Bell and her sister have a podcast, so I feel like I can't really escape

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_04]: the world.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just everywhere.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just you're so in it.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just so in it.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just really like, life is art.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Art is life.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_04]: That's how I feel.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_04]: But it was nice to take a break and watch something different with Unsolved Mysteries,

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_04]: although it is in the genre of true crime.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And that is why we were doing this episode today, the last episode of our...

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Technically, we're still on summer break.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Next week, season seven drops with a very dear friend and fellow cult-servant,

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_04]: survivor.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_04]: You probably already know about her book, Dinner for Vampires by Bethany Joy Lenz.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I am almost done with it.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you think?

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Dude, I mean, where do you start?

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we should wait for the episode to get into it.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm at the softball game fight right now.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So just let everyone know that's where I am.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_04]: One of those books where I read it first and I kept going, oh my God, Nippy.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And he's like, okay, Sarah, I'll read it.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to read it.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And now he's doing, Sarah, oh my God.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, I know.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Dude, it's crazy.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I had to drop the car off this morning to get serviced.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, wait a minute, hold on.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I got to go finish reading this somewhere.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And I went into the Lexus dealership and was listening to it.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's nuts.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_03]: It's for sure.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Did anyone pop their head around the corner?

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_04]: What is that book?

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_04]: What is this about?

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no head popping at the Lexus dealership.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess they're busy there.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, we're very excited for all our guests that are coming up in season seven.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: It is a stacked lineup and it's going to...

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_03]: We're spreading our little bit culty umbrella a little bit.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_04]: We're widening the lane.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And today is a similar lane widening topic.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Today's topic has taken over American minds and media.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_03]: It's infiltrated our screens and our earbuds and has millions of followers around the world.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_03]: We bet a lot of our listeners are ride or die followers themselves.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_04]: You might even say that we are too.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_04]: 100% actually.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Our topic today is the cult of true crime.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, okay.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_03]: We know true crime isn't actually a cult, but it's definitely become a mass obsession.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a little bit culty.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_04]: People are culty about their true crime.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So according to Pew Research, it's the most common topic among top rated podcasts.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_04]: A recent YouGov poll showed 30% of Americans engage with true crime content every week.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_04]: According to Pew Research, it's the most common topic among top rated podcasts.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: A recent YouGov poll showed 30% of Americans engage with true crime content every week.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_03]: People have been into true crime since Jack the Ripper stalked Victoria and London.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And murder shows have been around for decades.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_03]: But interest has exploded in recent years.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And the internet has made it easier than ever to engage with our favorite crimes.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_04]: True crime junkies have even helped solve cases.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Internet investigators helped the police find Gabby Petito.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm pretty sure we've all learned not to fuck with cats.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Google it if you don't know that reference.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Hashtag if you know, you know.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I know the reference.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_03]: But there's also a dark side to this obsession.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Some armchair detectives interfere with police investigations more than they help.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_03]: False accusations have sent online mobs after innocent people.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And interest in serial killers can go past fascination and into glorification.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Guys like Ted Bundy, Chris Watts, Wade Wilson get slammed with fan mail and love letters after they were caught.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_03]: True crime is obviously a common interest.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And we love all you crime addicts listening.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Still, we think it's worth examining our dark fascinations.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Our guest today, Terry Dunmuir, knows a lot about the intersection between crime and media.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Terry is the co-creator and executive producer of Unsolved Mysteries, a show that's been a pioneer in crime TV since the 80s.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_04]: She's here to talk about the evolution of true crime over the years and how the public obsession with it has grown.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Can't wait for this one.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's welcome Terry to the show.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Terry, welcome to A Little Bit Culty.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you for having me.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Happy to be here.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_04]: This is a little bit out of our normal range, but it's still...

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Or is it?

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_04]: No, but we...

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we're figuring that out.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_03]: We're figuring it out.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Because...

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a Venn diagram where these cross over, for sure.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_04]: True crime and cults is, you know, there's definitely an overlap.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_04]: But we didn't really know how much of an overlap there would be until we started prepping for this episode.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And we realized that you are like the OG, the GOAT, dare I say, innovator in this true crime space, which is now such a huge part of our...

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Of the zeitgeist and our social structure and obsessions.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_04]: How did this begin for you?

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's start with you and your journey.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, my personal journey began with Nancy Drew when I was, you know, nine years old.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I've just always loved mysteries.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's interesting to look back and realize that I've actually...

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_05]: That's become my career was that passion.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, Nancy Drew, Agatha Christie, all of those great mystery books.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_05]: But in terms of how Unsolved Mysteries began, it evolved out of a documentary that I did for HBO America Undercover about missing children and missing adults.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And the Missing Adults episode found someone who had set up his disappearance and left his family.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_05]: And that made everyone think, oh, maybe there's something here in terms of using the media to solve some of these cases.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_05]: So we produced three episodes for NBC about missing children and missing adults.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Those found a few people.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And then Brandon Tartikoff at NBC was the executive at the time.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And he said, hmm, I think there's kind of a bigger thing here.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And so he told us to go back and figure out what that was.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_05]: And we came back with Unsolved Mysteries.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And we just said, there's so many different kinds of mysteries.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, there's murder and there's missing persons and there's robberies and there's science and medical mysteries.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_05]: So we just put all of those into one big bucket.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that's one of the things that our viewers have really embraced over the years is the variety of cases, including the paranormal.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Because those are, you know, UFOs, ghosts.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Those are all mysteries as well.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_05]: So that was the genesis.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't think necessarily.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I was very skeptical.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, we wanted to produce it.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_05]: But I was very skeptical that an audience would come back every week and to listen to four stories without endings in one hour.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_05]: We produced four stories.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's like, you know, who's going to watch that?

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_05]: But when the show started solving cases, it took off and it just became a hit and very, very successful.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Now, that was back in the day when there were three networks plus Fox, right?

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Four networks.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_05]: So you were getting, it was appointment television, eight o'clock on Wednesday.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And people would sit down and watch it.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_05]: You would get a big, big, big share of the audience that was watching.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Now, there's so many networks and there's so much content out there that it's a little bit different than it was back then.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a good point.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And for our young people listening to this who don't know what appointment television is, let me just say that if you missed the show at eight o'clock on Wednesday, you missed the show.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_04]: You couldn't go back and put Netflix on your computer and catch up on what you missed.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_03]: You had to wait for the rerun or syndication.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And I just have to say, watching this news, what did you call it?

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Chapter five?

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Volume.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Volume five.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And hearing that theme song, I was instantly transported back to the 80s.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_04]: 80s.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And being like scared and being like kind of watching, but like creeped out.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Trench coat.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_04]: The trench coat and the voice.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_04]: It was just, it's like iconic.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Like I didn't, I'd forgotten how iconic it is.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Those are all the elements that everyone always comments, especially it's like, you know, I'm at my refrigerator and I hear the theme and it brings me back to my childhood.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And I used to sneak episodes of Unsolved Mysteries because my parents wouldn't let me watch them.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_05]: I stayed home from school so I could watch them in syndication.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's crazy to me that the brand Unsolved Mysteries has now just crossed generation after generation, decade.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_05]: It's been on for decades.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's just all generations, younger generations, older generations, they all know it.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_05]: It's really become a household name.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, congratulations.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_04]: That's, I mean, what else could you want as a producer for television?

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Right?

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_05]: We're very, very proud of this series and what it's accomplished.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's more important than anything to me is what it's accomplished.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_05]: And it continues to accomplish.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we try to shine a light on these smaller cases in smaller towns where they don't have any more leads and the investigators are at a standstill and they need leads.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_05]: So what we try and do is generate leads in these cases and see if they can, if the investigators can take those and run with them.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And sometimes time helps because people are a little bit less worried about coming forward.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_05]: The advent of DNA has helped a lot.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't have DNA testing when we started this show.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_05]: It was just coming online.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_05]: And DNA has solved so many cases now.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Of all the cases on Unsolved that are solvable that we've produced, about 260 of them have been solved.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_05]: It's amazing.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_05]: And those weren't all solved because of the show, but a lot of them, we did a podcast and our podcast even.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Some of the cases in the podcast got solved.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_05]: There's one that we always go back and update them.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_05]: That's one of the other things I think the audience, our loyal fans like to go back and see what's happened in some of these cases.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_05]: And even now, it's like a property that you have to manage in terms of keeping it updated.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_05]: We go back and we put updates at the end of all the episodes so that the audience knows that that was solved or someone served their time and was released.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Because that's fair if they've served their time.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_05]: We can't say that they're still in prison.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's still a living, breathing brand franchise that we have.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_05]: And we just love it.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, back in the day when we would get news that there was a case that was solved, we'd be so excited.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think we all feel that same excitement now, even over 35 years later, when a case gets solved.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_03]: How do you explain the interest?

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Why do you think people are so interested?

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that they like debating, if the case is still unsolved, I think that they like debating what the theories are and who the suspects are and who they think did it and what they think happened.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's when the case is unsolved.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_05]: But then I think they like having the resolution to the case too when a particular case gets solved.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_05]: I just think there's a fascination with people looking into other people's lives.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And sometimes, oftentimes, it's very tragic, these situations that these people and the episodes find themselves in.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, they're heartbreaking.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_05]: They're heartbreaking.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think there's, I don't know, is it a voyeuristic feeling that could that happen to me?

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, a little bit.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_05]: But then there's also, could that happen to me?

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_05]: What would I do if that happened to me?

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_05]: How would I feel if that happened to me?

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_05]: So there's a relatability.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_05]: One of the things we've always tried to do with this series is find stories that are very relatable to people so that they go, oh, gosh, that could be me or somebody I know.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I just think it's a window into people's lives and sadly, people's tragedy.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_05]: But then I think there's also, I wonder if I'm working next to that wanted fugitive or I'm living next door to that wanted fugitive.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_05]: I like to believe that the audience really, that we've empowered the audience that they can solve these mysteries and that they might have a clue or a lead in terms of what happened.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, cases have been solved in different countries.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Fugitives have been found in different countries where a viewer just said, hey, I know that person.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I just saw them at the market.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I want to ask that.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's one of the things that, you know, Sarah and I were, when we went through our process, were sensitive to.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_03]: How do you maintain being sensitive in that kind of like heartbreaking space to the story and then knowing that there are people that are voyeuristic and protecting them from people that are kind of like using their life for entertainment?

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, for us, we would never do a story unless we had someone's permission to do it.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And we don't think I understand the question and the concern about exploitation.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_05]: We feel that the mission of the show is to solve the cases and people come to us.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_05]: We have thousands of submissions for cases from individuals and from law enforcement who want us to take on their case.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_05]: So they're asking us.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_05]: It's rare that we go, we reach out to someone who hasn't submitted a story to us.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's, we feel like, in fact, it's the hard part is trying to sort through the stories and figure out which ones we're going to do.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_05]: When we were on the vintage shows, we had four stories an hour so we could get a lot more mysteries out there.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Now, on Netflix, we love doing the deeper dive into one story per episode, but we want to tell more stories to get more cases solved.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_05]: So we feel like we're responding to a need that's out there from these people who want their cases solved.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_05]: They just need the closure.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, they do need closure.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_04]: How do they contact you?

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It used to be through actual written letters.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure now it's all digital.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And what's that process like?

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_05]: We used to get huge, huge bags full of viewer mail.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And we had a team that would go through them.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, just letters and submissions and everything you can imagine.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And now we have unsolved.com, which is our website where people can go and they can submit a tip.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_05]: They can submit a story idea.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_05]: They can comment about a case.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_05]: It's kind of an open forum for people to go to.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_05]: And then so what we do if we get a tip, some of the tips that come in are, you know, I think I saw that person six months ago in Walmart.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_05]: That's not a tip we would necessarily forward on to law enforcement because there's nothing they can do with that.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_05]: But we immediately forward the tips on to law enforcement and then they run with them.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes it takes a while for the case to get solved because they have to go through the tips and they have to see which ones are viable and then follow up on them.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_05]: But that's the process.

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[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we?

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't have internet when we were producing Unsolved Mysteries.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_05]: We had to do research using a clipping service where newspapers all over the country would send us little clippings about cases.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And we would call, make cold calls to the law enforcement.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't have a way to search for crime, any kind of crime.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_05]: There was no internet.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_05]: But now people can get on the internet and they can research.

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that has also led to the fascination with true crime.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_05]: There is so much content on the internet and X and all the platforms that I think that people are just hungry for more and more and more.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And there's a certain, people like to share their opinion.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_05]: There are armchair detectives out there who like to dive into these cases.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_05]: One of the dangers that we've seen evolve is that sometimes people think they know who did it and don't get it right and go after people.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And people's lives, we've seen people's lives have been destroyed by well-meaning armchair detectives who are trying to solve a case.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And everybody has to be very, very careful about innocent until proven guilty.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_05]: That's really, really important.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_05]: So that makes me a little bit nervous about where we're headed with this.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_05]: We try to walk a very, very careful line.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_05]: We're working with law enforcement.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_05]: We will talk about someone as a suspect.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_05]: But then we will say, but the police have ruled him out or her out.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And make sure that, but then there's still times when we do that.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_05]: But then our audience still says, oh, yeah, but I still think they did it, even if the police ruled them out.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I definitely am guilty of that.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: In watching episode one of volume five, the park bench murder, which is tragic murders,

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I was very certain that the alleged ex-boyfriend who saw her the night before was like that.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, that's the one, like, for sure.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's okay to have that opinion.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_05]: It's just when you start, like, going after people and harassing.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_05]: It can be, I guess it could be categorized as harassment.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think you would do that.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_05]: But there are people who get a little bit, who get very rabid about their opinions.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's a concern.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, the suspect you're talking about, the police alibied him out.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_05]: He was not where, you know, when they were killed, he was nowhere in the area.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_05]: That's not enough for me.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_05]: That's not enough for me.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, okay.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Could be a hit.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_05]: She's a sleuth.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Could be a hit.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I am too.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_05]: I totally get that.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_05]: When we're looking for stories that we're going to profile,

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_05]: the sign of a good story is when we're all sitting around and just talking, talking,

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_05]: talking about, well, what do you think about this?

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's, you know, that's, then we know we go, okay, that is an intriguing mystery

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_05]: because we're all, we're all talking about it.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And that I think is another thing that makes the true crime and the mystery arena popular.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I imagine the media.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_05]: It's because it's real talkable.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Water cooler.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I imagine the media, you know, kind of goes through the revolving door of asset to adversary

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of times because there's always going to be people that are pursuing truth through

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_03]: watching your stories and then pursuing entertainment.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And the media is always going to be there to kind of take it, run with it, make it entertainment

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_03]: and kind of muddy the waters a little bit.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that something you experienced, particularly with the internet and everyone is an armchair

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_03]: expert?

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_05]: I think everyone wants and likes the idea that with social media, they can weigh in.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_05]: They can have an opinion.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_05]: They don't just have an opinion.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_05]: They can share their opinion and they can share it in using any language they want.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_05]: And then other people hop on that and it just, it just snowballs.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_05]: It can snowball from there.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that there are some people now who as much as they would want their story done,

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_05]: they're a little bit leery of putting themselves out there because they know what social media

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_05]: can do to them.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's a shame that people are wary of using the media because they're afraid they're

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_05]: going to get exploited or their story is going to be used and taken into some crazy direction

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_05]: that it shouldn't be.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Were there any unsolved mysteries that were cult related or crimes that took place in cults

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_04]: that you know of?

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_05]: There was.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_05]: There was an abusive cult leader who we profiled.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_05]: The episode was called Cult of DeCloud and he was an abusive cult leader and he was arrested.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I think he was a wanted fugitive.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I think this victim's escaped the cult and he was arrested and he was charged.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Nelson DeCloud, yeah.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_05]: There's another cult which it probably is on your radar.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Hoffman?

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we did an episode on that.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_05]: She's scary, scary, scary, scary.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_05]: She's the kind of person that would pull you into the cult and then suddenly you're dead

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_05]: and she's got all your inheritance and you've willed everything over to her and then you

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_05]: suddenly die mysteriously.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_06]: What's her name?

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Courtney from my office should be here sitting next to me and she knows all I have to do is

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_05]: say cult and she'll just, she knows everything.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Terry Hoffman.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_05]: She's a great one if you need a cult story to look into.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, she's dead.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Tragically, we don't.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, sadly.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Unfortunately, we could do this for...

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, people say that to me.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_05]: They say, oh, you know, are you going to keep going doing unsolved mysteries?

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_05]: And I always say, well, sadly, yes, as much as, as long as we can because there's so many

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_05]: cases that are mysterious and that need to be solved, unfortunately.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I wish we could just say, okay, you know.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, same.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Done.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the fact that you've gotten 25% of your cases solved is almost like you're another

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_03]: branch of law enforcement.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_03]: In a lot of ways.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's pretty impressive.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_05]: No, we've worked really closely with law enforcement.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, one of the things that unsolved mysteries doesn't do is try and take down law enforcement

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_05]: for any kind of investigation that wasn't handled properly or anything like that.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_05]: That's never our goal.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, small towns.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes these cases happen in these small towns where law enforcement isn't trained to

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_05]: handle a case like some of these cases.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_05]: And so we just want to work with law enforcement and help them.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And sometimes law enforcement's a little nervous because they think we're, oh, we're going

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_05]: to, we're going to call them out on something they did improperly.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_05]: But we never, ever, ever do that.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_05]: We just, it's all positive.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_05]: It's all positive.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_05]: We just assume everyone's doing their best and they're working the hardest to solve

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_05]: these cases.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I imagine that's the case most of the time.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it is.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_05]: It's true that I think it is the case most of the time that what happens is the families

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_05]: and you can't blame them.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_05]: They get frustrated because they want something to be done.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_05]: They want something to be done to solve their case.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_05]: And they're looking for that closure.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And they feel like law enforcement isn't doing enough, but that goes back to unsolved mysteries.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Law enforcement needs the media in order to generate leads.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_05]: The leads don't just fall from the sky.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's where the media can really, really help.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And Crime Stoppers, we've seen that.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Crime Stoppers has done great work trying to solve local cases.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_05]: We went national with unsolved.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_05]: And that was another thing that probably was different back in the day is that they did

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_05]: have local Crime Stoppers organizations in, let's say, you know, St. Louis, Missouri.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_05]: But if a fugitive or a missing person was in San Francisco, there was no reach to find them.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_05]: So unsolved kind of brought this awareness in a national kind of way and in an international

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_05]: kind of way, too.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_05]: There was a case solved in Ireland and Samoa.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_05]: We've had some bizarre cases solved in bizarre places.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Have you ever thought of merging some?

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Like we just watched the Becky paranormal connection with Becky.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_04]: What about getting Becky involved to solve the Roswell UFO case?

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I like that.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I think she could help.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I like that.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't you think?

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, Don, you know, we were telling Don Phillips in that case, you know, that it was going

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_05]: to air.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, we really hope you like it.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And he said, oh, Becky's already seen it and she likes it.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's going to be good.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I love it.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_05]: We laughed.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_05]: It was very great.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_05]: So Becky has signed off.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm very happy that Becky has signed off.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I wouldn't want Becky to get upset with me.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_05]: No.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Did Becky have to sign a release to be involved?

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_05]: No.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_05]: She texted me.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_05]: I wonder if she kind of falls under Don's release since they're joined.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_05]: You're going to tell her.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_04]: For our audience.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the audience should really watch the episode.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_04]: But Don is a paranormal expert who has a connection with a spirit named Becky.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And I personally am a believer.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I know I'm going to get shit for that on our episode.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Because people always find me a little too woo-woo after being.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think they do.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, some people do.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_04]: They're like, you know, like I like, you know, I do certain things that are a bit more spiritual that some people like and some people don't like.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But I believe in spirit.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I believe in spirit.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_03]: You carry it right down the middle though.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_03]: In a safe space.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I think if you watch that episode, there's no way you can't.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Just like you can't watch the Roswell thing and not believe there's something out there personally.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So everyone knows my take now on aliens and spirits.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the thing about Don, when we were researching that story, Don Phillips, you know, Don can tell us that he has this relationship with Becky.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_05]: But we wanted to tell the story through the eyes of a skeptic who is Stephen Mara, who is another paranormal investigator who started off completely skeptical of Don and his abilities.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And just couldn't deny that there's something special going on with this guy and this connection that he has with Becky.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_05]: So we wouldn't have just taken that on if we didn't have a Steve Mara to tell the story through.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Because we wanted to hear it.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_05]: We were on Steve's journey of testing Don's skills and trying to vet whether this is really something going on.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like you.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Until someone proves to me that there are no ghosts, no UFOs, no kind of spiritual reincarnation, any of that, I'm a believer.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Nobody gives me a hard time.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe they don't say anything.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_05]: They're probably laughing at me behind my back.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, behind my back.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_05]: But no, I'm a believer.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's one of the things that makes this, you know, after all these years working on this show is fascinating.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, one of the episodes in this batch of episodes that's launching today that I will say over 1,300 episodes that I've produced is the most mysterious and unexplained episode that we have ever produced.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's called Mysterious Mutilations.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_05]: It's about cattle mutilations.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And it is the first time I, and I was out there, I met these ranchers whose cows were being mysteriously mutilated and found, you know, in the hinterlands.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And there is the only explanation I could come up with is UFOs.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's the first time I've ever been able to, people laugh at me about that, but that's the best, most rational explanation.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_05]: So you know how crazy the story is when UFOs are the best theory that you've got.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Because it's been going on for decades.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_05]: It's very, very random.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_05]: These cows are mutilated in very specific ways.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_05]: And they have been for the past 10, since the 60s, decades.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's not one person that's out there doing this.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's happening in different states.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_05]: It's very, very, very random, but it's very consistent in the way the cows are mutilated.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And these cows are found miles.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_05]: These ranches in eastern Oregon are huge.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_05]: And these cows are found miles into the ranch.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_05]: There's no footprints.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_05]: There's no tire tracks.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_05]: There's nothing.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_05]: There's no blood.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_05]: The cow, there's no blood in the cow.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And there's no blood around the cow.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it is crazy, this story.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_05]: I can't believe that it's gone this many years and we haven't produced this story.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_05]: And we look back and we realize we had tried to produce it, but we couldn't get any ranchers

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_05]: who would talk about it back in the day.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And it was not easy to get these ranchers to talk because they don't like the idea that

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_05]: this is happening and especially happening to them.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, of all the cases, it's probably the most mysterious that I've ever encountered.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that the one that kind of haunts you the most or that is the most unresolved for you?

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Or is there a few in your mind that takes up space?

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that one is more just the only explanation is UFOs.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's the one where I'm like, they're paranormal.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_05]: It has to be UFOs.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Something's causing this.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_05]: That's the most mysterious.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_05]: The cases that haunt me are the heart-wrenching cases.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_05]: I think the first episode we did for Netflix was about a man named Ray Rivera who mysteriously

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_05]: went off a roof in Baltimore, Maryland and died.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_05]: And his death was ruled a suicide.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And his wife and a number of other people didn't believe he had killed himself and started

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_05]: investigating.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_05]: So we scouted that story.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_05]: We stood up on this roof to see how that could have happened.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_05]: And you're standing up on this roof going, there is no way that Ray ran and jumped and

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_05]: landed where he did.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_05]: It's just not humanly possible.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_05]: So that one haunts me.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_05]: His wife, Allison, is lovely.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_05]: The cases, I think, like Park Bench are the Park Bench murders case.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Those are the ones that are really troubling.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_05]: These couple, just a friend, a couple of friends sit down on a bench and they're there

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_05]: for five minutes.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_05]: And someone comes up and shoots them execution style.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_05]: And in broad daylight, there's bikes and cars and strollers and people walking around and

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_05]: nobody sees anything and no one hears anything.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_05]: No suspects.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Just a lot of potential theories.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_05]: But those are troubling.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_05]: The ones that, the random violence, those are troubling.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think those haunt people as well.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_05]: The audience is like, oh man, could that happen to me?

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_05]: That's exactly.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a couple that haunt us from NXIVM, even though Keith is in jail for 120 years and

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_04]: five years probation.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's a lot of women who mysteriously died of a very rapid cancer around him.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I had to...

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a couple.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_04]: There's two that he's known for the longest and who were very healthy, like me, kombucha

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_04]: drinking, fitness, very fitness oriented, active women in their 50s who suddenly got very

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_04]: aggressive, different forms of cancers and then died.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And I used to think it was a water thing, like a water source in upstate New York.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And then as I realized what he was doing and how he had this harem and they were some of

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_04]: his first loves and then were tormented by having to share him.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_04]: It was like more of like an emotional inner turmoil, stress, cortisol, cancer thing.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Now I think he was poisoning them to get rid of them because he had a new younger group

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_04]: of women that he was bringing in.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_04]: So if you ever want an unsolved story, we got one for you.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yeah, he's already serving time.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_05]: He's not getting out, is he?

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_05]: He's not getting out.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_05]: I just want to know.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_05]: You want to know what...

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a mystery.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_05]: It's what happened.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_05]: How did these women die?

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that your theory or is that a theory that's circulating...

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Both.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_05]: You know?

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Both.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_04]: There actually was a documentary that looked into the poisoning and actually had one

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_04]: of the women's hair.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_04]: She had really long hair and they tested it and they found bromine in her because she

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_04]: was one of the...

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Boron and bismuth.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_04]: They found chemicals that would rat poison in her hair.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's...

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wow.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_04]: That's not very fair.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_03]: That is an interesting story.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_03]: There's also the Alaskan case.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_04]: There is a...

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_04]: When we first joined, there was a woman that...

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_04]: The only article that was sort of negative about Naxiom at the time, other than that they

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_04]: wore sashes and that they were too happy, was that somebody had one of his acolytes

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_04]: had joined, been upset, wrote a suicide note, and then the body was never found.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's...

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_03]: After taking one of the trainings.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_04]: After taking one of the trainings.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And we'd been told when we researched that and said like, okay, what happened here?

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And they said, oh, no, she's alive and well.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_04]: That was all a hoax.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I trusted them.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I never looked into it.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_04]: But no, we're now in touch with her family and she's very much not alive and well and

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_04]: that's unsolved and is a cold case in Alaska.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_04]: But as you said, Keith's in jail.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So...

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And this is not why we invited you to the show to pitch our story.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_05]: But I mean, what a journey.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_04]: What a journey.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_05]: What a journey.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe it's something we'll do a little bit culty spinoff.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_03]: A little bit culty unsolved.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you should.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_04]: A little bit culty unsolved.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_04]: There you go.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_04]: There you go.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_05]: What do you think as a producer?

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that...

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I think so.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_05]: I think so.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_04]: For more background on what brought us here, check out my page-turning memoir.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_04]: It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that bound my life.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_04]: It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you want to see that story in streaming form, you can watch both seasons of The Vow

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_04]: on HBO.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think you could be manipulated out of a bad habit?

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Scam Fluencers is a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_04]: of the most infamous scams of all time.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_04]: The impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Scam Fluencers recently dove into the story of Richard Bandler, the godfather of modern

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_04]: mental manipulation.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_04]: He revolutionized the world of self-help, all thanks to an approach he developed called

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_04]: neuro-linguistic programming.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Even though NLP worked for some, many called it pseudoscience.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_04]: NLP methods have been criticized for being dangerous in the wrong hands, and inspiring some

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_04]: the most toxic and criminal self-help movements of the last two decades.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Throw in Richard's dark past as a cocaine addict and a murder suspect, and you can't

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_04]: help but wonder what his true intentions were.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Follow Scam Fluencers on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_04]: You can listen to Scam Fluencers and more Exhibit C true crime shows like Morbid and Kill

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_04]: List, early and ad-free, right now by joining Wondery+.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Check out Exhibit C in the Wondery app for all your true crime listening.

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[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_03]: exactly what you wanted.

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[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Break time's over, people.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a good one.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_04]: So, we're going to do a little bit culty unsolved, and maybe we'll all meet up at

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_04]: CrimeCon.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Have you been to a CrimeCon convention?

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I have not been to a CrimeCon convention.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_05]: No.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_05]: No.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I've heard of them, and I know what they do.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_05]: We did a podcast about someone whose case had been presented at CrimeCon.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_05]: And they're just trying to gather ideas and leads about specific cases, right?

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Law enforcement comments and presents their case.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Have you been there?

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_04]: We were there, yeah, last...

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Last May.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_04]: May.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_04]: We didn't know much about it, to be honest, because we'd been sort of in our little cult

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_04]: niche, but...

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_03]: We didn't even see really how cults overlapped until...

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_04]: But then we also hadn't even put together in our minds that we had used the media to expose

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_04]: the case, like going through the New York Times to get law enforcement involved.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I went to law enforcement first, and they didn't know how to handle it.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_04]: They hadn't been trained in coercion or trafficking in that...

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_04]: They didn't know what they were looking at.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_04]: But so it was sort of exciting for us to kind of like piece together, you know, our small

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_04]: part in that puzzle, and then seeing other people who were doing that.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like if you wanted to go, you'd be a great guest.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm happy to introduce you to the organizers, because there were a lot of people like you

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_04]: who were creating content that was pivotal in terms of using the audience to solve the

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_04]: crime.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_04]: It was...

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's for sure overlap there, and I think they hosted a really good event.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_04]: It was an intense event, I will say.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not fun.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't fun, per se.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_04]: It was...

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_03]: At times, it felt like seminars.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Because people were really, you know, they're sharing their stories, and it's heavy stuff.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Heavy, yeah.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a mixture of people who are like the families that you've worked with who want to

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_04]: solve the crimes.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And then there's a mixture of kind of housewives and young women who are just obsessed with

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_04]: true crime and are there to like...

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_04]: It's almost like these people are celebrities, or we are celebrities, which doesn't feel right

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_04]: in that way.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's also really wonderful to meet people who we've never met before who want to tell

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_04]: us their cult story and tell us how our podcast has helped them.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, that's really meaningful.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like cathartic, meaningful, intense, emotional.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a mixed bag of stuff.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, one thing that surprises me is why people in this day and age with all the technology

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_05]: out there even think they can get away with something.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Get away with a crime.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, just your cell phone alone.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, Unsolved Mysteries can be a bit of a how-to sometimes.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_05]: But with all the surveillance cameras around and now all with the advent of ring cameras,

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_05]: you're seeing so many more crimes solved because there's a ring camera.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Who would be dumb enough to even commit a crime?

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_05]: There's DNA and all the forensic testing.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you know that if you're going to go commit a crime, you don't turn off your phone

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_05]: unless you're a person who turns it off regularly.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_05]: You know?

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, there's all these tips that you can garner from some of the true crime cases,

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_05]: unfortunately.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm surprised that crime still even happens and that people even think they can get away

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_05]: with it.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_05]: I would never commit a crime.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_05]: I would be terrified of somebody's watching or some camera's somewhere watching.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_03]: There's cameras on the street, too.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's crazy.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_04]: What else do you think has changed since you started this in the 80s till now?

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And where do you think the true crime genre is going?

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I think there's always going to be true crime.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if at some point the audience is going to get saturated with the same stories,

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_05]: or not the same stories, but stories that start to sound the same.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I find that sometimes when I'm, you know, scrolling through, looking for something to watch.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And, oh, that sounds like that one.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_05]: That sounds like that one.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a certain familiarity to it.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_05]: And it can be that way with the cults, too, right?

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, you know, there can be that.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I think there's always going to be an interest in unsolved cases.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I would not have guessed this in the beginning, but I do believe now that people really are

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_05]: intrigued by cases that are unsolved because they want to help solve them.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Or else, even if they aren't actively trying to help, their brain's working on what they

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_05]: think happened.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And they would like to be able to solve them and help these families.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_05]: So, unfortunately, I think there will always be unsolved mysteries cases.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_05]: I'd like to, you know, continue to produce unsolved for as long as I can because there

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_05]: are so many cases out there, just thousands and thousands of cases that need the attention,

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_05]: need the media.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_05]: The media is huge.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_04]: It's huge.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_04]: How do you protect your mental health as a producer and somebody working with

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_04]: families with such dark material?

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I think I'm so excited about the idea of helping people.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think about it.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_05]: I think the cases that, the random crime cases are the ones that are more troubling.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_05]: The people who are in the, you know, wrong place at the wrong time and something happened,

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_05]: those are troubling.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, you know, the shootings that we have now.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_05]: I agree.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Those are haunting.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Those shootings haunt me that you could just be out at a sporting event and something

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_05]: happens or your child's school or something like that.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Those are the crimes.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Those aren't mysteries.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's a mystery of why we have so many, but those aren't the crimes.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Those aren't mysteries.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_05]: I lost where I was going with that.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I got you.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I totally get you.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And those are the ones that bother me the most too.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_03]: The ones that aren't mysteries.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the ones that aren't mysteries.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Why do you think the demographic, maybe it's not for unsolved, but at least for true crime,

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_04]: because I know unsolved goes outside of true crime into mysteries and paranormal,

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_04]: but why do you think the audience is predominantly women as a stereotype?

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, unsolved mysteries has always been pretty split in terms of male and female viewers.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_05]: But you're right, that true crime, investigation ID, that they're predominantly a female audience.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_05]: I honestly don't know.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I've been asked that question before, and I still don't have an answer.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have an answer?

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_05]: No.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_05]: It's the same thing with cults.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_04]: We should look it up.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I would say as a male, and I don't think I speak for all males, I watch it to go,

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_03]: what do I need to look out for to protect?

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And what are my blind spots in my role of protecting my family, et cetera, and being safe?

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe women watch it for different reasons.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like an escape, maybe.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you see the Saturday Night Live skit that came out a couple years ago?

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_04]: It was like a little musical number about true crime shows, and it was a skit about the

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_04]: woman's at home, and the boy, whatever, the male partner's like, I'm leaving.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And she's like, bye, I'm just going to be home by myself.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And she gets some ice cream out, and it's like watching all these murder shows.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And then at the end, it's like, what's next?

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Cult shows.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And there's sort of 8 million people sent it to us because of the cult reference.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And anyway, obviously, it's hard laughing about these things, but there is something

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_04]: unique about the genre that pulls women in in a different way.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have an answer.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought you might have an answer.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no, no, I don't.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_05]: I've actually thought it'd be interesting to put together some kind of presentation and

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_05]: take it around to schools or something, you know, Unsolved Mysteries, cautionary tales,

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_05]: things we've learned from Unsolved Mysteries, things you don't want to do.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I will tell you, I have three children.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_05]: They're grown children, and they have heard a lot of cautionary tales in their lives.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_05]: People ask them, they say, what was it like to grow up with your mom?

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Producing Unsolved Mysteries.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_04]: What are the main things they know to not do now?

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there's things like if someone, I have two daughters and a son, if somebody's trying

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_05]: to pull you over in a dark area, you just turn on your hazard lights and you don't pull

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_05]: over.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_05]: You just keep driving until you get to a gas station or some kind of public space.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's a good idea.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Just one example.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_05]: There was a, when my son was in college, it was during the smiley face concern about

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_05]: young men who were being drugged in bars and dumped into rivers and lakes around their

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_05]: colleges.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_05]: So I remember calling my son saying, you know, be careful, be careful.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_05]: It was just so many of them.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_05]: My son, when he was young, he would go into the office with me, my oldest, because he

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_05]: was four weeks old when Unsolved became a series, so he had to go back to work with

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_05]: me.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_05]: So he was raised on Unsolved Mysteries.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think I didn't quite know some of the damage I was probably doing.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_05]: At some point, he said, Mom, are you going to come back and haunt me when you're dead?

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I didn't realize.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_05]: He'd be in the editing room.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_05]: He'd be, you know, everywhere.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_05]: But there are some lessons to learn.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And then there are some times the random stories we talked about, which there's nothing you

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_05]: could have done.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_05]: And those are the ones that are troubling.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it always comes back to, you know, people out there can help solve these cases

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_05]: and paying attention when you're out there and thinking, even if you think you have the

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_05]: smallest little clue, not being afraid to come forward.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I think there are a lot of people out there who probably think they have information about

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_05]: something, but either they're embarrassed to come forward or they're afraid to come forward.

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_05]: They don't want to get in trouble.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_05]: They don't want to get somebody else in trouble.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, law enforcement, these cases are only to get solved if people come forward

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_05]: with the information they have.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's always been our mantra and our mission is trying to empower people to come forward

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_05]: and try and solve these cases.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The Roswell episode is a great example of that.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I felt like all the people were scared for generations to come out and probably say something.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, they were.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And they finally did.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of those were deathbed confessions.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, yeah, it's just, okay, I got to get this off my chest.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_04]: That actually reminds me that that was, you know, obviously this is, we're not talking

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_04]: about cults in this episode, but our lane includes the concept of abuses of power.

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_04]: In every cult, there is an abuse of power.

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's one thing we have seen as a through line.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_04]: In this case, it looks like certain people in the government abused their power and really

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_04]: silenced people to, you know, to hold this secret for a long time.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And it looks like even traumatized some people saying, like threatening to allegedly to hurt

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_04]: them or kill them or their family members if they spoke about what they'd seen in Roswell.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think that still happens.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_05]: People are intimidated.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's what happened in those cases.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like the government didn't want anyone to talk about it.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And they put the fear of God in them and their families.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, hopefully that kind of intimidation doesn't continue to happen.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_05]: That can happen more with the military, I think, sometimes in some of the cases that we've seen.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_04]: We actually met John Ramsey, Jean-Bernet Ramsey's father at CrimeCon in the green room.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And he was telling us a little bit about his journey since his daughter was murdered.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And I just said, you know, he was just this really warm, interesting person.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I said, I wish we could, I wish there was a cult angle to your story so we could have you on the podcast.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And he said, well, I think there is.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_04]: The abuse of power within the police in his town and the way that they handled it.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_04]: And apparently there was people who were speaking out against the way things were done,

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_04]: but they were being suppressed because they were lower level.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And I guess we haven't deep dived yet, but mistakes were made and then they were covered up to protect image and stuff like that.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_05]: My heart really goes out to people like him.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, all the people whose stories that we've covered and have not had the closure.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Even before I produced Unsolved Mysteries, I did one of these first documentary specials I did was about missing children.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_05]: And I spent Thanksgiving with the family of Johnny Gosch, who was a paper boy who disappeared out of Des Moines, Iowa.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And this is back in the 80s.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_05]: And those people never found their son, never found their son.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_05]: He was on a paper route.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_05]: And every Thanksgiving, I still think about John and Nori and Gosch and Johnny and the fact that, I mean, they were afraid to change their phone number.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_05]: They were afraid to move.

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_05]: What if Johnny comes home, tore the family apart?

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_05]: And they've never had closure and they've been extorted by people who say, oh, I've got information.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Give me $1,000.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, and you have to sort through the good tips and the extortion.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_05]: It's just their journey.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's what, 40?

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_05]: It's got to be 40 years ago now.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_05]: So those people, my heart goes out to anyone who's living with an unsolved mystery, honestly.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Because it's something that just destroys your life.

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_05]: It just eats away at you.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_05]: So those are the people we're trying to help with the series.

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_05]: If we can get closure for those people, that would be wonderful.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_04]: That sounds great.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And thank you so much for taking the time to tell us about your journey and your mission and the show.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think there was a lot more overlap than we thought originally.

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I think so.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I think so.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, thank you for having me.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_05]: It's been a pleasure chatting with you.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Anytime.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_04]: You like what you hear?

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Smash that subscribe button.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_04]: You know what to do.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I enjoyed that quite a bit.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_04]: How about you, Nibi?

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think she's great.

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the franchise is in good hands as long as she's producing because she comes from the right place.

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_03]: She clearly does.

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think there's anything in her that wants to put content out like that.

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, what did you think of the cow episode, which you watched and I did not after we spoke with her?

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_03]: The cow episode is one I watched kind of with the skeptical eye.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Give our listeners a little taste.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And was...

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Cows disappeared?

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So, well, it started...

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the gist of it is like it's kind of been folklore amongst cattle herders that they'll find a cow that has no blood in it,

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_03]: surgically precise cuts on them, and they're missing organs.

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's no evidence of any tracks or anything coming in to get the cows, steal them, take them out or whatever.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And they're just found randomly six, seven miles from where they were last seen.

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And they've been disemboweled in some cases.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's no evidence as to how they got there.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a total...

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And all the ranchers are like, there's no reason to even cut their tongues out, cut their organs out.

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_03]: There's like, there's no value in those.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So, it's a total mystery to everyone as to why this even happens and let alone they can't solve it.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So, it's been going on mostly in Oregon and Texas.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_03]: But I have my...

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, she had her theory.

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And I guess I'll have to watch it.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_04]: But we hope that you all watch it too, Unsolved Mysteries.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_03]: That one and the Roswell one.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the Roswell one about aliens.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And then there's obviously a number of true crime episodes.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_04]: But they all started Volume 5 this October, October 2nd.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Check them out on Netflix.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And we hope that you enjoyed this chat with Terry.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_04]: We certainly did.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I also enjoyed soft...

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Did we actually soft picture?

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_04]: We did.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_03]: We did.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it was that soft.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_04]: It was a medium pitch.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's enough stuff around Keith.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_03]: He's the gift that keeps giving to all these conspiratorial...

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, maybe we'll just do an offshoot.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we'll do our own Unsolved NXIVM Mysteries spinoff.

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Audience, would you like that?

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Would you like to?

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Pitching our audience now.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm pitching our audience.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Would you like an Unsolved Mysteries spinoff with ALBC?

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll be chatting about that over on Patreon.

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_04]: See my little segue there?

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_03]: That's brilliant.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Segue Sarah.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Segue Sarah.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and we have a new section on our website called

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_04]: events.

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So things that we're doing, we are going to work up to a live event eventually, hopefully

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_04]: in the spring where we'll be signing books and all that.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you to everyone who's already pre-ordered.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Really appreciate your support.

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And you can also...

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, you can sign up for our newsletter and be up to date with all the things a little

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_04]: bit culty.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_04]: What else is happening on Patreon, Nippy?

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_03]: We have the watch parties that we've started with our friend Corey, which seemed to be a little

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_03]: bit of a hit.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Big hit, actually.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_04]: We thought this was super random.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_04]: We can refine those.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Super random.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_04]: But we have our friend Corey, who is a new friend of ours in Atlanta, who didn't know anything

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_04]: about NXIVM, only that we were in a cult and that was it.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And we're watching it with him.

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And wasn't going to watch The Vow.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Wasn't going to watch it.

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And then eventually it got to the point in our relationship where there was just too

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_04]: many gaps that we were referring to things that he was like, okay, fine, I'll watch it.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And we are recording that and we are re-watching The Vow.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's watching it with a legal mind too, which is kind of cool.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_04]: He's a big time lawyer and he's amazing.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Also, intermixed with our chats with Corey, we have a two-part episode with two dear friends

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_04]: of mine, former coaches, never before heard from Lauren and Aaliyah, who were coaches in

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Vancouver.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And they have some great stories and some hilarious chaps my asses to share.

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_04]: So join us there on Patreon for those special chats.

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And they have their own podcast too.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_03]: They have their own podcast too.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's going to drop on our regular feed at some point.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see what the Patreon audience says.

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_04]: We always wait for the feedback and then we decide.

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And to join us on Patreon, it's very easy.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_04]: You go to patreon.com slash a little bit culty.

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_04]: There's two different tiers and both tiers offer lots of bonus options.

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Please reach out to us if you have any problem with the signup experience.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think you will.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_04]: So thank you all for joining us.

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Let us know what you think of the episode and Unsolved Mysteries and also about the new

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_04]: other new Netflix show.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Nobody wants that with not Adrian Brody.

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Adam Brody and Kristen Bell unrelated to this podcast.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Very unrelated.

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Until next time.

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Until next time, everyone.

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Bye.

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Bye.

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Sinking down to the depths of the ocean.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for listening, everyone.

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_03]: We're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culty now to discuss this episode.

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_03]: In the meantime, dear listener, please remember this podcast is solely for general informational,

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_03]: educational and entertainment purposes.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not intended as a substitute for real medical, legal or therapeutic advice.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_03]: For cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world,

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_03]: check out a little bit culty dot com slash culty resources.

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And don't miss Sarah's TED talk called How Cult Literate Are You?

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Great stuff.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_04]: A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_04]: In collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound and our co-creator and

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_04]: show chaplain slash bodyguard, Jess Templetardy.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And our theme song, Cultivated, is by John Bryant.