The Ego Trap: Eckhart Tolle on Cults & Other Mental Viruses (Part 2)

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[00:01:08] Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here and I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.

[00:01:21] We've been there and back again. A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult and then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge. The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow now in its second season.

[00:01:36] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped next to him, the cult that bound my life.

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[00:02:18] This stuff really is everywhere, the cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we. Welcome to season 5 of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com Music After much debate, welcome back, welcome back.

[00:02:54] Debate about how much to talk about before we finish. And just get them back into the interview.

[00:02:59] One of the things I'd like to suggest because we got to listen to this you know to give notes for the edit and we went for a walk in the woods up here in Atlanta Georgia.

[00:03:07] And it was really, I think it's so perfect like I said to him in the interview. I like listening to him and audible on a walk, you know, not so much like you can do it anywhere doing dishes or whatever like you listen to books and podcasts.

[00:03:20] But I really enjoyed being out in nature. It was very helpful to do some of the spiritual exercises that he talked about while being present out in the world.

[00:03:28] So if you want to re-listen to the first one like that or switch it up for part two, highly recommend. Dive right back in. He finished it strong.

[00:03:37] And I think a lot of the questions that we had going into this in terms of approaching this possibly controversial figure in this space, we asked the questions that we wanted to ask. And I hope that we asked yours also.

[00:03:50] We've had more controversial people than I've ever told. It's true. I mean he's written two international best sellers and millions of people credit him with helping them live more present joyful lives.

[00:04:00] And as we said in episode one, he's considered one of the most spiritually influential people in the world. Here's our epic chat part two and you can decide what's word salad and what resonates. And be sure to find us over on Patreon later this week.

[00:04:15] We're going to keep the tape rolling and process this entire extravaganza. It's going to be a real awakening or as I like to say, consciousness. Let's do it. Part two with that cart tool. Really.

[00:04:40] Right now I'm trying to be present and also the irony is not lost on me that, you know, one of the reasons I got into our call at the first place was to be more present and to have more awareness and to not be so anxious, which was for me being in the past and also planning in the future.

[00:04:57] Never here. Even now I'm like thinking about going in and out and clearly this is your life's work to help people awaken and be present.

[00:05:06] Do you see, since we're on a little bit culty, do you see in these toxic spiritual leaders, how can that tool, the idea of being more conscious, being more present? Is there any danger there?

[00:05:17] Like is this relate to spiritual bypassing or do you have any thoughts on where the tool of consciousness can be manipulated? Well, spiritual bypassing happened a lot often in the teacher too.

[00:05:29] Spiritual bypassing means it's a spiritual ego that you believe that you are already beyond certain things like negative emotions and so on. Because you have a self concept of yourself as spiritual, therefore you cannot acknowledge that you still carry a lot of negativity, for example, inside you.

[00:05:52] And you just are not able to be present within because what create a conflict with your self image of who you are. And Christians have done it for long, long time. They love your neighbor as yourself and they've tried to practice that not very successfully in most cases.

[00:06:13] Still practicing. Because that in itself is impossible in the normal state of consciousness, you cannot love your neighbor as yourself. Really, Jesus' statement about the kingdom of heaven that is within you and loving your neighbor as yourself, they really belong together.

[00:06:32] And I believe what he was really saying because all we have is fragments of his teachings, that's what the New Testament is.

[00:06:39] He was really saying when you realize the kingdom of heaven that is within you, then you will recognize your neighbor which means the other person as yourself. When you recognize who you are in essence, then you can sense the same essence in the other.

[00:06:57] And that sensing that you share the S, that consciousness is what you share with the other, both aspects of the one consciousness. That recognition is not only empathy with the other, it's also love in a deeper sense, the other.

[00:07:13] But just to try to love your neighbor as yourself in your normal egoic consciousness is impossible. Yeah, absolutely. But you had another, what was your question? I'm so present that I completely forgot. I noticed that.

[00:07:28] I mean our goal, if we'd love to give our listeners is A, understanding what to look for with their leaders and also how to survive without throwing the baby out with the bathwater once they leave. The term was what we were talking about.

[00:07:42] We were talking about spiritual bypassing. How do you know they're just not selling tickets to heaven? Yeah, and also just like when we hear certain people speaking using these spiritual terms it feels like they're glossing over natural human things and that can be dangerous.

[00:07:57] Well there is such a thing as transcendence. You can transcend, let's say you have, let's say you carry a lot of pain from the past in your emotional energy field which I call the pain body.

[00:08:06] Let's say you carry that and if there's enough awareness in you then you gradually transcend that pain. You go beyond it and the pain becomes actually transmuted into presence. But spiritual bypassing is fake transcendence. Yes.

[00:08:26] So spiritual bypassing is you convince yourself that you've transcended but you haven't at all. It doesn't deny the fact that there is the possibility of transcendence but you haven't done it and then you have to go there first.

[00:08:38] You have to sense, you have to take your attention within and not deny what you're experiencing in any given moment. With spiritual teachers it's important not to confuse. Not to confuse.

[00:08:53] Let's say there's a teacher that delivers inspiring messages or teachings and you're greatly helped by that and if you get to know the teacher you may discover two things first outside the teaching situation.

[00:09:06] No matter where this teacher is at, I include myself here on the human level there is no such thing as perfection. You cannot have a perfect human being just totally. I have certain imperfections as a human.

[00:09:22] Now we're not talking about extreme dysfunction which some teachers have whose egos are overblown. So in some teachers you get extreme egoic dysfunction in the immediate surroundings in the environment. But some element of imperfection on the human level is always there.

[00:09:42] Sometimes my place is untidy or sometimes I don't deal with things in time. I miss deadlines. I'm not perfect on the human level. I don't have severe dysfunction on the, I've relatively harmonious environment but I'm not perfect for any means. I sometimes drink wine and so on.

[00:10:03] So some people say oh no you can't do that. But it's not too confused the teaching comes through and not only teaching, if a teacher has some connectedness with the deeper dimension of presence

[00:10:23] then you can also sense that when you're in the presence of the teacher at least in the teaching situation you can sense there is a presence that emanates from the teacher. But with other teachers you can't sense it at all because it doesn't exist.

[00:10:35] There's only conceptual stuff, only ego. Just that. Confusing the human form with that which transcends the human form is often the case when people attach and people begin to worship a teacher as a, make the teacher special as the form.

[00:10:56] They cannot sense, let's put it in religious terms. Instead of sensing that God is speaking through this teacher in this moment they confuse God with the form. There was a teacher in India many people followed. So the moon thing, the finger in the moon?

[00:11:17] The finger pointing to the moon. Yes the finger pointing to the moon is not the moon and people often confuse that the finger for the moon. Or the map is not the territory. Nancy Salisman used to say that also.

[00:11:31] Oh yeah, well you see there's I'm sure there was a lot of truth in your organization because otherwise you would not have been attracted to it because in other people like you, you're intelligent person, you're above average intelligence. There's no doubt about that.

[00:11:45] And yet there must have been something that was helpful. But then the ego came in. I believe you were able to disentangle now that which was helpful, which perhaps it was all second hand in the case of your teacher.

[00:12:02] I do think he actually directly stole from a number of teachers including you. Yes, I figured out what he just did well. What? Where most hierarchies have a system that weeds you out because you're not performing.

[00:12:15] I can say oh I can score 50 points a game but when I go out there and don't do it, I'm weeded out.

[00:12:19] But when the spiritual bypassing because you can pretend and it's not always obvious when you're not performing, particularly to your audience depending on their level of consciousness. Keith outsourced the performance to his curriculum.

[00:12:32] So it took the responsibility of actually embodying what he says to us and we weren't there enough to none the wiser. Does that make sense? And I specifically think he also read Eckhart's book underlines certain passages. How he did it was that.

[00:12:47] Including there's a module he taught called What Is. You know and I'd read your books first. So I feel like when I went into next year, I was like, oh this rings true to me and felt right. Eckhart you prepped me for my calls. We didn't know that.

[00:13:02] I don't blame you. It's really, I love my life. Well the good thing is you can disentangle what was true or it might have been second hand. Delivery didn't come from his own deeper realization. It was second hand. But nevertheless it was health to a limited extent.

[00:13:23] It was helpful to people. But then it became more and more contaminated with egoic stuff in this case as is often the case. To your point his inner circle got the most travel when the bomb went off.

[00:13:36] And then even the truth can be distorted when the ego comes in. So even a true thing can become distorted. But it's the confusion of the human form of the teacher with the deeper essence that comes through.

[00:13:50] I remember there, I met some people who were followers of a teacher in India called Papa Ji. Papa Ji, I don't think it was a cult. He was a genuine spiritual teacher and many people were helped by him.

[00:14:04] And then as he grew older his mind was no longer working so well. And he couldn't express himself clearly anymore and the teaching became a bit muddled. And that couple of people who told me about this, they were close followers of him.

[00:14:21] They were thrown into great confusion and suffering because it's that this is not a real teacher. They were so disappointed that after listening to this great teacher suddenly the teaching became unclear and muddled. Because he couldn't deliver it. His mind was weakening.

[00:14:40] He could not deliver the teaching anymore and they were in a deep crisis these people who told him about it. They were followers of his. They doubted everything. The reason, of course, was because they had confused the vehicle with the essence that youth.

[00:14:56] The vehicle was the mind, an instrument or vehicle for delivering the teaching and transforming the teaching into words and delivering it and emanating it. They confused that with that which spoke through the teacher. I sometimes compare the teacher, I even compare myself often. I'm the window frame.

[00:15:19] The thing about the window frame is it lets the light come through. It's a window, the light comes through the window. What matters? Not the window frame.

[00:15:28] How do you deal with that when people see you differently and put you on a pedestal or what's your response to that interaction? Is it uncomfortable for you? Are you used to it by now? Well, I often talk about not to confuse.

[00:15:44] Even one could say the power that sometimes comes through, not to confuse that with the person. The person is no more than a temporary vehicle or an opening for it or a channel for it. And I continuously point it out.

[00:16:01] But some people do it anyway. They still confuse. I have this confusion and in India it's the custom for when you meet a spiritual teacher they kiss your feet. So when I went to India that happened quite often and at first very uncomfortable.

[00:16:19] But then it's a this has been the custom there for thousands of years. India is just different. There's an open spirituality like it's in the air. It's everywhere. I'm not saying that every Indian person is spiritual. There's a lot of materialism there too now, but nevertheless.

[00:16:37] So I just had to accept it. I don't talk it personally. I realize that it's acknowledging the spirit, not the form, acknowledging. By the way, I use that human being. I often use that expression. Your human being, the human is the limit of it.

[00:16:56] It's the body and the mind. That's the human you, the personality, the person. And the being is that which is, which transcends that, which is the consciousness. So when they kiss my feet it's the it's acknowledgement of consciousness, not the human.

[00:17:13] But it's so easy to succumb to that and let it go to your head and say, I am special. In a way everybody is special, but the ego is always looks for specialness. The ego wants, it compares itself to others and it wants to be special, more special.

[00:17:31] It's superior. We like to believe we're better than we really are. Yes, it's the ego search. It's a continuous search for superiority. Now every cult leader knows that because in order to manipulate people, if he is very unconscious or she,

[00:17:47] he instills this sense of specialness in the followers and sometimes singles out certain followers, especially he wants to have sex with somebody. This person becomes you are really special and then he tells them why they are special

[00:17:59] because we had many incarnations together and finally they will come in whatever past lives. And it feels the ego feels wonderful with it. I'm so special. I finally arrived. Everything makes sense now, but unfortunately it was all manipulation. And at some point they may wake up to that.

[00:18:21] But while it was working this incredible sense of superiority over ordinary humans and sometimes cults have a sense of everybody who is not a member of this cult is inferior. And some Christian sects also have that belief. They're all wrong except us.

[00:18:42] When only we are going to be saved, only our group is going to be saved. Everybody else is lost. That's a red flag. That's been a few of our episodes. I call it moral supremacy.

[00:18:54] Yeah. Now the ego, if the ego cannot be an ordinary, let's not say other than the spiritual ego, which can be enormously strong and an ordinary ego seeks superiority either through your body.

[00:19:10] If your body is stronger or better looking in other people's body that you can identify with that becomes part of your sense of self, egoic identity, or it could be your possessions that you identify with to give you,

[00:19:24] if you have more and better things than others, that is the ordinary ego or your achievements. I can do this, but you can't social status that you identify with as yourself. All this is egoic superiority seeking something to be superior.

[00:19:41] And in some cases people when they think of ego, they think of people who have big egos. They think they are the greatest.

[00:19:48] Well, in some cases that's true, but an ego that believes to be a victim is just as strong as an ego that says I am the greatest. And this is particularly these days of very popular form of ego is victim identity.

[00:20:04] The more you are victim, the greater your sense of self and society recognizes that these days it becomes a great thing. If you belong to a victim group, you are given special status. And you leverage your victimhood for power.

[00:20:21] Yes, not that of course some people were victims, some people were abused as children and so on. So you were victims or groups of people were victimized. There's no denying that but to build an identity around that, that's the egoic trap.

[00:20:38] That's something that you really actually help me with.

[00:20:41] I don't know if you know that in our conversations in the last five years of freedom and helping me get clear on what my story and message is without being caught in the pain of what actually was, I was victimized but I don't have to stay in the have an identity with that.

[00:20:58] Yes, that's so important to not to deny it but not to not it's not who you are. It's not, it's in that transcendence. Not to say that I'm enlightened just tell me we're not caught up in that too much.

[00:21:15] Yeah, yeah, that's transcendence as opposed to bypassing when you say I'm so spiritual I don't feel these things anymore. That's bypassing. And that is certainly a reply for us when people say I'm so spiritual.

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[00:23:00] Well you can be enlightened at any moment when you're not identified with your mind then you're present. And they could say then you're enlightened the light of presence is there when you're not identified with your mind.

[00:23:16] And then the ego is not operating it doesn't mean that five minutes from now the ego might return. So but at this moment it's not fun the ego is not there. It's in a bay and somewhere perhaps waiting to reappear the right moment.

[00:23:34] Usually when a next challenge comes the ego comes back like a cold sore. Just waiting for the good metaphor. We're just a little brat that wants what it wants. We haven't tamed it yet. But just to be present also doesn't depend on time.

[00:23:53] So you don't need to ask yourself am I going to be present for the rest of my life. There is no rest of your life because there's only the present moment because the rest of your life is still a mental construct.

[00:24:05] Because the future does not exist outside of the human mind. Because if it did exist outside of the human mind somebody would have experienced it at some point. If it existed that doesn't. It's hard to think about this because it's on a practical level.

[00:24:21] Of course there is such a thing as future but on a deeper level has anybody ever found the future? Have anybody ever experienced it? You can't because it is a mental thing the past too.

[00:24:34] There's only ever this moment you might remember the past but only now in this moment. You might think about the future because in fact the future is thought.

[00:24:45] So we need to be able as humans we need to be able to handle these concepts past and future they are necessary. But for our deeper realization of who or what we are have to be able to step out of those concepts after all that is their concepts

[00:25:03] and realize that all there ever is is this moment. And that is an enormous liberation. It's not just a mental thing. Yes, yes that's true. But when you really realize the truth of it as an experiential realization then you can actually this sounds a little strange.

[00:25:24] You can actually sense what this moment means or is. You can sense the power of this moment. There is a power here that is inseparable from the present moment. We could call it the present moment.

[00:25:37] This is why I say the power of now and what is that power that you can sense that is within and without brings us back to its consciousness. It's a power of consciousness. It's a present moment. This presence is almost I wouldn't say tangible but words are limited.

[00:25:54] There is an actual presence that is not separate from who you are but is actually the essence of who you are is the power of that presence.

[00:26:05] The Tao as they call it in ancient China, in the Tao Te Ching, the finest book, one of the great spiritual books. That is the power of the Tao that is everywhere that flows through everything to use a term from Christian theology but it's a helpful one.

[00:26:24] This power is immanent, which means indwelling and transcendent. It transcends everything. It comes from another dimension and yet it indwells in every life form. Everything is a manifestation of that power.

[00:26:41] To sense the present moment as an actual presence is the same as sensing your own presence but it's not your own, we just say it. And again for some people what I'm saying now is just word salad but for others it might be a very helpful pointer.

[00:26:58] If you can even get a glimpse of what I'm talking about then it's a very helpful pointer. If you can't get sense, even a glimpse of what I'm talking about then it's word salad. Fair enough.

[00:27:11] I think it's what you talk about the essence or the intent behind the words. So you're using it just to confuse us and drone us or you're trying to get us a glimpse as you know it. I was talking with Sarah.

[00:27:22] I remember that question, my seven year old who turned eight but he asked me like a month ago. He says, Dad is there an us 10 seconds ahead of us and 10 seconds behind us? And I was like that's out of my pay grade. That's a very profound question.

[00:27:37] Yeah, yeah. How old is he? He just turned eight and I didn't think it out grow me that quickly.

[00:27:43] I remember when I was about that age or maybe 10 or so I asked my dad about the universe and I tried to visualize whether there was an end to it. I was always interested in looking at the stars and is there an end to this universe?

[00:28:04] And I tried to visualize the end, but if there's an end what's beyond the end? If it's endless, how can it be endless? It's just not possible. I just couldn't even now nobody can understand the question.

[00:28:16] I still glitch when I get to the point where I can't answer it. But children often ask very important, very deep, very deep questions. Before he goes to bed we have questions about the universe time. Sometimes it'll be like what is hair made of? Again you trumped me.

[00:28:35] I was going to share for our listeners to put your headphones in and to go for a walk being out in nature going to the woods. I find it much easier at least for me to actually experience what you're saying in real time with you but in nature.

[00:28:48] I find that much easier. Nature can be very helpful to take you out of the conceptual mind. Yes, when words are spoken from presence, that state of consciousness that we call presence, there's a certain power to them. The power goes beyond the conceptual value of the words.

[00:29:07] The conceptual value is fine but more to the words there's a power that the words carry that can help people to enter the state of presence when they're alive. The words are open to it. Sounds a little mystical but that's how it is.

[00:29:21] So a spiritual teaching, you can have a spiritual teaching that comes only from the mind, from accumulated knowledge in the mind. Or spiritual teaching that arises from a deeper level. It may still incorporate accumulated knowledge but the deeper essence then speaks through the mind and it flows through.

[00:29:42] It uses the mind as an instrument and how a true spiritual teaching operates. And again if a teacher is in that teaching mode, it's a wonderful thing, can be extremely helpful.

[00:29:57] And if the teacher is then in his or her private life, who knows how he or she operates, whether that completely loses that presence in some cases or whether the teacher is relatively conscious even in private life.

[00:30:15] I've had some contact with, for example, a very famous spiritual teacher spoke to me not long ago. I had had some contact with, I won't even say whether it's him or her.

[00:30:26] I've had some contact with him or her many years ago at that time he or she, I think, I might have sent a letter to them but they didn't reply, pronouns they.

[00:30:40] They didn't reply and not only a couple of years ago the same person I met again and said to me, they said to me, I'm sorry I never replied to your letter that many years ago but at that time I was quite insane.

[00:30:56] And at that time the teacher was already a very powerful speaker and very affecting, probably helping many people but privately very dysfunctional. Wow, I'm going through the Rolodex in my head but I won't guess.

[00:31:12] Well we touched on it a little bit in our last podcast. You know you have these good orders, one person that's inspired me, Martin Luther King, JFK when they speak from my perspective. They speak from maybe the right place right now.

[00:31:27] How they do their personal lives is we've all heard all the stories and stuff like that so but does that lessen the power of their capacity to step into that role? Yes. And influence people that I still watch those speeches today and get goosebumps. Yes, that's right.

[00:31:44] So I don't throw it all away. There's a lot of good that's coming there that's listening to people up so it's too hard. And again that's an interesting point with speakers.

[00:31:52] There are some speakers, even spiritual speakers that I've seen, some when they get on stage and start speaking they deliver a performance. They become the speaker it becomes and it could be very quite powerful as a performance but it lacks a deeper essence.

[00:32:11] Sometimes it works on an emotional level and so on. And then there are other speakers who do not perform when they speak. In fact there's no change in how they are normally and when they speak so there's a more natural way of speaking.

[00:32:30] I don't believe I have any, I don't really shift from when I speak on stage or where I speak here or wherever it's just... This is you.

[00:32:45] Long form culty content check out my memoir. It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.

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[00:33:19] That's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it? Well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature.

[00:33:30] Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it. Nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded.

[00:33:39] Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks. I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority.

[00:33:45] I get so much out of it. It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need.

[00:33:54] Like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people, you know what I mean? Thanks therapy! Thanks for helping me see that.

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[00:34:13] Look, even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever.

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[00:34:39] You can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry Food Drive. All proceeds go toward local food banks and families.

[00:34:47] Now through January 31st you can purchase an icon in-store or online or watch out for the blue Feeding the Hungry Shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries. Together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's.

[00:35:03] Given this lose speakers in this space that we've been talking about what chaps your ass Eckhart? What's your, and then we were laughing earlier like nothing chaps your ass because you don't get reactive.

[00:35:18] But is there anything that you would when you look out into the space that you kind of roll your eyes at a little bit or that you think is noteworthy to acknowledge in this way? Eye roll yes, yes I must admit that sometimes happens.

[00:35:31] This is the Eckhart version. What makes you roll your eyes Eckhart? When I listen to certain things that have kind of become mainstream, extreme aspects of wokeness these days with totally irrational beliefs and just the most absurd things.

[00:35:53] I don't want to go into detail because we may lose some of the viewers who have already listened us, who have already been infected by the wokeness.

[00:36:03] Many of these things started as good things but a good thing when you take it further and further and further becomes a bad thing. Not long ago I read about a woman who learned about how good water is to cleanse your body.

[00:36:23] So she started to drink water and then she thought well if two bottles are good then three must be even better. And then she drank more and more water and trying to kill herself with water.

[00:36:34] Something that is good in moderation when you take it to an extreme it goes, acquires a certain momentum and it grows and it grows. It was good when it started for a while it was good and then it became excessive and then it became bad.

[00:36:49] The very same thing became bad. The ancient Greeks had a famous saying, nothing in excess, nothing in excess because anything, no matter how good it is, you take it to an extreme it actually turns into its opposite.

[00:37:05] So that's the case so the eye rolls can happen quite often. What do you want the world to know? Well that there is a purpose to your life, to everybody's life.

[00:37:17] There is a purpose and of course this is very important because many people live without any sense of purpose. Nihilism is very prevalent these days, nothing makes much sense, everything is pointless and there is a purpose to human life.

[00:37:35] Purpose on the one hand is you can have a personal purpose and that's fine, it's a good thing to have a personal, maybe it's your career or whatever it is.

[00:37:47] Or you may want to have lots of children or whatever or you want to be good at something, some activity, some job, playing an instrument.

[00:37:58] Personal purpose can be many kinds of personal purpose, it's a great thing to have a personal purpose in your life but sometimes it's ultimately not enough to, if the personal purpose is not aligned with the greater purpose, human purpose,

[00:38:13] then it's always quite limited and ultimately will not be satisfying. And the greater purpose is the growth of consciousness to become a more conscious human being. So to realize that whatever you do on your personal level, the most important question is, is it aligned with the greater purpose?

[00:38:32] The greater purpose is the awakening of human consciousness and we talked earlier about what that means, what awakening is. So the greater purpose is the awakening, if you have a personal purpose align it with the awakening of consciousness.

[00:38:46] In other words, so whatever you do on a personal level, do it as consciously as possible. Place attention into it, give it attention, do it carefully and consciously rather than trying to get it out of the way in order to get to the next thing.

[00:39:02] And then when you get to the next thing, try to get that after the way to the next, this is how many people live, all this for the next thing.

[00:39:07] Never fully acknowledging this thing. So to do everything consciously that would be aligning your personal purpose with universal purpose which is the awakening of human consciousness.

[00:39:20] So the message is that there is a greater purpose to life even if you might have failed in your personal purpose, maybe things have gone wrong as they often do in many people's lives. In many people's lives almost everything at some point will go wrong.

[00:39:35] So maybe many things have gone wrong but the question is if they've gone wrong and if that suffering that you went through has taken you to this point where you begin to realize that there is more to your life than your personal purpose.

[00:39:52] There is a transcendent purpose which is the awakening of consciousness which can happen at this moment, become conscious of this moment as yourself.

[00:40:02] That's the awakening of consciousness. This can happen even if your whole life was a total mistake. Some people make one mistake after another or one bad decision after another.

[00:40:13] And I've had people from prison, were in prison some for life and they said I read your book and I have become free internally. I feel free now.

[00:40:27] All their suffering is taken to this point of awakening to the deeper essence of who they are. The message is awakening, the possibility of awakening and for many humans anybody who recognizes this message is already beginning to awaken.

[00:40:43] The fact that you recognize what I'm talking about means you're already awakening and if you don't recognize it you're not awakening yet and it's just word salad. But they don't need to join a cult to have an awakening?

[00:40:56] No, no, you don't. In fact it would be better not to join a cult. Just a little side note. That's a good sound bite. Eckhart says it would be better not to join a cult. I think we know someone in prison that he could send that book to.

[00:41:08] We do. Yeah, we should send him. Oh, he's already read it because that's where he stole it from. I guess you already knew that. As you can see laughter is a part of our healing. Lucky to have a partner. It's not all me, Sarah.

[00:41:26] The ego won't allow that. Really? Well, the awakening of consciousness has always been important but it's more important now because humanity is arriving at a critical stage in many respects. It's a time of crisis and we haven't even seen the end of it yet.

[00:41:46] We're just moving into very turbulent times. That's my feeling. We are moving into very turbulent times but that's also a great opportunity for spiritual awakening. In fact, humans don't awaken when they're in their comfort zone. They don't awaken.

[00:42:01] They have to be taken out of their comfort zone and then there's a possibility of awakening. And now many more humans will be taken out of their comfort zone. It's already been happening on many levels and that's a good thing. From an ordinary perspective, bad things are happening.

[00:42:21] From a higher perspective, the bad things that are bad on this normal level, not denying the badness of bad things, but they are levels of truth. And what is true on one level may not be true on a higher level.

[00:42:36] All the bad things that are happening are actually part of the evolution of human consciousness. This is the process.

[00:42:44] I think that's an important concept and I also know that that's one of the tenets of spirituality that I feel can be abused by a toxic leader to say that this bad thing is, oh, this abuser is actually your master teacher.

[00:42:57] That concept can be really like a gaslighting. Yes. Many of these things can be misused by the ego. The ego can misuse many spiritual truth. The ego is, to a large extent, misused the teachings of Jesus too. Quite a profound teaching.

[00:43:16] But when the ego gets hold of it, it distorts it and misuses it. So let's say in the Middle Ages you had the Inquisition when people were burnt at the stake in the name of Christianity. That happens when the ego gets hold of it and totally distorts everything.

[00:43:38] You touched on a point. A lot of the people that I follow in certain fields like finance and other fields, they all collectively say that this is going to be a rough time.

[00:43:49] Do you think that in some respects saying that it's a rough time or whatever causes it to happen and how does that affect the consciousness of what's going on?

[00:43:58] Well, I think if you see, let's say if you're out in the country and you see on the horizon dark clouds coming in and approaching, again it would be spiritual bypassing to say, well, it's not really happening.

[00:44:15] The rain is not coming, the thunderstorm and the storm is not coming this way, but it is coming this way. So when you recognize something, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are manifesting it.

[00:44:28] But there is an important thing to add to this. Even in the midst of turmoil, you can be in a state of peace. So you manifest peace even around you. We don't know where life will take you or anybody as the turmoil increases in this world.

[00:44:47] But you can be in a state of peace, even in the midst of turmoil. And you will make a difference too.

[00:44:56] So if enough people are conscious, even as the turbulence approaches, then if there's a sufficient number of humans who are conscious, then probably the turbulence will pass more quickly.

[00:45:09] If not sufficient number of humans are conscious, then it could linger for much longer and we could move into a so-called dark age. That's possible too. There's nothing wrong with that. We've already had many dark ages after the Roman Empire collapsed.

[00:45:27] There were many centuries, almost a thousand years, well depending on how you look at it. But certainly several hundreds of years of diminished culture and most humans lost the ability to read and write. They couldn't build structures anymore. Many abilities were lost.

[00:45:48] The culture that we had in antiquity, ancient Greece and ancient Rome came to an end. But even within the dark ages, so-called middle ages, there were humans that were actually quite awake. Most of them in the West were Christians, mystics, enlightened teachers, mystical teachers, mystical Christianity.

[00:46:12] So the dark age, if it happens, that is part of what needs to happen. But you can be conscious and even during a dark age there were conscious people. I'm very optimistic about human destiny and the so-called future, which ultimately doesn't exist.

[00:46:31] Short term, I'm not so optimistic but long term I know that consciousness is evolving and humans will almost certainly make it. Not 100% guaranteed and if humans don't make it, it doesn't matter that much either because consciousness can take on many forms of consciousness.

[00:46:51] It can express itself, manifest itself through countless life forms but it's always the one consciousness. So the essence of who you are will always be present no matter what happens.

[00:47:02] Remarkable for me this last hour and a half but especially that we're in five years of freedom from our group and to have known you this whole time and to have been the lucky recipient.

[00:47:14] You have perceived a great deal of healing and peace because of your teachings and your kindness and your generosity. Even though this podcast is called A Little Bit Culty, I feel you're the real deal and your wisdom which I think is so...

[00:47:30] What so many of us are looking for when we join cults or groups? No one joins a cult on purpose. We join a community. We join an organization, all these things.

[00:47:38] But to find someone who truly is an embodiment and also so humble and down to earth at the same time as a gift. So I feel very lucky to have been on this journey and to have literally bumped into you on the street five years ago.

[00:47:54] Lucky for both of us. Thank you for your consciousness. Thank you, it's not mine, it's yours too. Thank you. Part two, over. That was a career highlight for me. That was fun. And the first one we've ever done in person. Yeah, which I think is... What?

[00:48:25] I don't know. You were so present. It was hard to... You were just experiencing yourself. And your true essence. Listen, I'm constantly trying to stay present.

[00:48:39] In fact, we listened to this and then we took a break to go to yoga the other day and I got onto my mat and... You found your center?

[00:48:45] I found my center. You know, often they say what's your intention and my intention was like, I'm just gonna stay present and stay on my mat. And then I thought, you know how many times I've said that, like try to stay present?

[00:48:55] I've never once gotten through a full yoga class without popping into my to-do list and replaying my... Telling me that I'm doing it wrong. Leaning over to the B.A. is doing it wrong, which I would never do.

[00:49:05] She's like, try getting your hips. I'm like, listen, the whole reason I'm here is because of my hips. Anyway, like five minutes later I realized I'm not present anymore and I've like completely gone somewhere else on the thought train in my head.

[00:49:17] And then I was thinking of all the things that he talked about and the overlap between the teachings and technology and XTM. I think we should discuss that over at Patreon. What do you think?

[00:49:28] Come and join us there. And if you're not feeling awakened, you're doing it wrong. No, that's gaslighting. If you're not feeling awakened, hey look, this might not be for you. Also gaslighting. Yeah, yeah. If you're not feeling awakened, who cares? Just live your life. Be happy.

[00:49:43] But just kidding. Listen, we're not awakened. Our pain bodies hurt. Daily. If you yell at us for making that joke. We're just, you know, we're trying to make light of this whole thing. Don't take it so seriously. We just want you all to be happy.

[00:49:55] But do let us know what you think on Instagram or... Or leave us a voicemail, which I think I've stated is my preference. But we do want to hear it. It's on our website.

[00:50:05] At a little bitculti.com. But just remember, if it's really good, we might have to play it. And we will. And we're cranking out that bonus content, some special, special treats and you are special.

[00:50:17] You are a special person. You are a special community. We are the most special. A little bit culty has the best, most special listeners. Extraordinary. Look all that ego stuff. You're magnificent. You're watching your words like neat. You're magnificent. Also, reminder, we're on donor box.

[00:50:33] If you don't want any of the bonus content and you don't like polite bribes or promotional mugs, but you do want to support the show, keep the donor box contributions coming. Much appreciated. Thank you all for helping us.

[00:50:43] Thank you for helping make this little cult podcast and for listening with open minds and open heart chakras. Namaste. Really? I hope you liked this episode. Let's keep the conversation going and come hang out with us on Patreon, where we keep the tape rolling each week.

[00:51:07] Special episodes just for Patreon subscribers and where we get deep into the weeds of unpacking every episode of the valve. And if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet, sweet swag or official ALBC podcast merch

[00:51:27] or a list of our most recommended cult recovery resources, visit our website at alilibitculty.com. And for more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page-turning memoir. It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.

[00:51:43] It's available on Amazon, Audible, narrated by my wife and at most bookstores. A Little Bit Culty is a talkhouse podcast and a Trace 120 production. We're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames with writing, research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy.

[00:52:00] We're edited, mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of Citizens of Sound and our amazing theme song, Cultivated, is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin. Thank you for listening.