The Erhard Effect: Anne Peterson on Landmark (Part 1)

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:15] I'm Sarah Edmondson, and I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy Ames.

[00:00:28] And this is a little bit culty. A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:36] Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:00:43] Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:46] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you're already prime recruitment material.

[00:00:52] You might even already be an occult.

[00:00:54] Oops, you better keep listening to find out.

[00:00:57] Welcome to season 6 of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:06] Welcome back to this week's episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:13] Season to stress.

[00:01:23] Dare I say that this has been the episode we have been waiting to do since we started a little bit culty and being badgered to do.

[00:01:31] We're not badgered by our entire audience. Not everybody, you'll see why.

[00:01:35] And we just want to start this episode off by clearly stating that it's not our goal or even our expertise to say whether or not landmark is definitively occult or not.

[00:01:46] That's not really what we do on a little bit culty anyway.

[00:01:49] We're a platform for survivors and experts and we help people share their hardest stories.

[00:01:54] We let our listeners decide ultimately what's occult or not for themselves hints a little bit culty.

[00:02:01] Or what's healthy for them or not? You don't even have to call it occult.

[00:02:06] And truth be told, we do think there's some amazing stuff in the landmark curriculum.

[00:02:12] It's not all criticism here truly.

[00:02:14] So wherever you are, landmark legal squad, you can put your cease-industice letters away and maybe take a nap.

[00:02:21] Have a snack, kick back and relax and listen to our episode.

[00:02:25] Snacks and naps are good unless you're in a high control group.

[00:02:28] That said, landmark for something that is not occult, you show up in a lot of culty circles.

[00:02:36] And we do get a lot of mail and hear from a lot of people about their adverse experiences in your programs.

[00:02:43] Also, did you know that you sound a lot like Nexium?

[00:02:46] In fact, we know that Keith Rinary modeled Nexium after your example and idolized Warner Earhart, the mind behind your origins.

[00:02:55] And for that matter, you sound a bit like Scientology without the deans and hocus pocus of course,

[00:03:00] but you certainly have a reputation for having your legal wolf pack go after anyone who dares to speak out about you.

[00:03:06] But here's the thing, even though we know people who have been very scared to talk about you in public,

[00:03:12] we've signed zero non-disclosures with you.

[00:03:16] We've never done the landmark form.

[00:03:18] We have this little thing called free speech.

[00:03:21] And frankly, we're allowed to say we think it's time you take a good long hard look at yourselves and zero harm in that.

[00:03:27] From everything we've learned, there is truly so much good in what you do and so many people have had what they call transformations.

[00:03:35] Simultaneously, we've also heard that there are things about the way some people in landmark role and that are problematic.

[00:03:41] And even the fact that people can't talk about their negative experience is also problematic in itself in our humble opinion and experience.

[00:03:50] Maybe you could take this gentle criticism as a growth opportunity, you know?

[00:03:55] Instead of the old cease and desist.

[00:03:57] In our experience where their smoke is usually a fire and you seem a little smoky landmark.

[00:04:02] So what's that about?

[00:04:04] Our guest in this two-parter and Peterson is likely to face a heap of BS for speaking out about her experience in landmark.

[00:04:11] But she feels it's a matter of serving the greater good because the public deserves to know the truth about her journey in and out of the weird wild world of Warner Earhart.

[00:04:21] Because there's no landmark without Warner Earhart.

[00:04:24] Landmark corporate will tell you there's absolutely no affiliation between them, at least on paper.

[00:04:29] But anyone in the self-help world will tell you that asked or Earhart Seminer's training is Warner Earhart's brainchild and that it later morphed into landmark.

[00:04:38] So that makes him the ideological father of landmark, or maybe the granddaddy or maybe the Vanguard.

[00:04:44] No matter what the legal relationship is between him and landmark, there's no denying that Warner was one of the first megastars of the modern personal transformation marketplace as we know it.

[00:04:54] One of the so-called fathers of self-help. He made his mark with an inner-face style that some people have likened to alcoholics anonymous meetings from hell.

[00:05:02] And his stich took off in corporate America, Hollywood, Silicon Valley and earned him high-profile devotees like Diana Ross, Yoko Ono and John Denver.

[00:05:12] But after a damning and later retracted prime time 60 minutes ex-Base in the early 90s Earhart allegedly sold his stake in the company and fled the country under the cloud of scandal and abuse allegations.

[00:05:23] The company rebranded as landmark and publicly distanced himself from Warner.

[00:05:27] But his legacy lives on. By the time that Anne Peterson was introduced to landmark in the mid-90s, Warner Earhart was just a scandal's footnote.

[00:05:35] She shared with us that she always knew that there was an era of controversy around him but was told it was all fueled by haters or Scientologist.

[00:05:45] So like so many people do she ignored the Westbrings and dove into landmark full on.

[00:05:51] And at first Anne loved everything about landmark, the focus on accountability, on taking control of your life and personal responsibility, the sense of camaraderie, the opportunity to change the world.

[00:06:02] Sound familiar anyone? She rose up the ranks quickly met her husband in the group and it soon became her chosen family and her career.

[00:06:11] Eventually she was tapped for a special project for quote the source, aka the founder himself introducing landmark tech to the world of academia.

[00:06:20] A gig that found her staying at Ritzie hotels and hanging out at prestigious universities as part of Warner's advanced team.

[00:06:27] It was all a heady experience for a former teen mom who missed out on the quintessential college experience.

[00:06:33] Anne was looking for community and direction without the dogma of organized religion and that's exactly what landmark slash Warner's world provided or so it seemed for a while.

[00:06:43] But eventually as a host and de facto handler for Earhart and his inner circle and saw up close that the mind behind the entire landmark worldview was a volatile one quick question is it ever a good sign when your staff.

[00:06:57] A standard operating procedure remove glassware from your hotel rooms in case you have one of your trademark tantrums this is just one of the many quirks and had to navigate while hosting the father of breakthrough human performance in his road show according to a memoir.

[00:07:12] When Anne learned from a group of staffers that they'd gone to the police with alleged evidence of bodily harm at the hands of Warner her landmark loyalty started to crumble and when she learned that the organization's top executives refused to make the abuses stop.

[00:07:26] And even denied any affiliation with Warner she saw her world with new eyes it was rife with exploitation these days and fresh from authoring a memoir full of bombshells about her experience with landmark in her insider account of the Warner air hard she knew.

[00:07:42] And she wants you to know that she's not a victim here just someone with blind spots that she needed to uncover and a story that needs to be heard also she speaking up for all the people who can't yet bring themselves to do so yet.

[00:07:55] We're chatting with her about her journey about the perils of Elgats that's large group awareness trainings like landmark in case you were wondering and we're talking about what she most wants you to know about how landmark isn't living up to its promise.

[00:08:09] Here's part one of our chat with Anne Peterson.

[00:08:13] Well everybody the most highly anticipated episode of all time for a little bit culty the episode that has been the most requested the most asked for the topic that everybody wants to know the truth behind who is Warner air heart and what the fuck is landmark.

[00:08:41] We're knocking out one of my top three welcome and Peterson.

[00:08:46] Finally three years in to a little bit called the does I can't believe it took us three years to get here.

[00:08:52] Why did it take us three years let's just start there who are you how do you find us why are you here so I have been teaching participating what not in personal growth and development through landmark primarily up to from 1995 and 2012

[00:09:09] when I left landmark is when I was able to start participating in some other some spiritual disciplines and some other thing.

[00:09:15] So deeply embedded in the landmark certainly the landmark version of the human potential movement which I say landmark are the big kids on the block they claim to have over three and a half million participants having gone to their programs for those of us that were part of it actually I actually found that always a little bit sad because it seemed to me like it should be millions more

[00:09:37] when you're in that's not only is that your job but that's your job because that's your belief so I was deeply a part of landmark and then when I left landmark I had the opportunity I was invited to host a program for Warner air heart who is known as the source of landmark.

[00:09:53] That's what they how he's often referred to inside of the community he is it is his ideas and his work that all of their programs are based on there the only organization I believe that is still licensed if you will to develop

[00:10:06] human potential personal growth and development that's what they call it they want personal professional growth and development programs but it's all in the human potential round so they are the lineage they are his lineage you've been in since 1995 to 2012 so you're the reason we're able to do this podcast everyone else we found till now we're too peripheral to really pack the punch that we needed to we have the Nancy Salisman of I went to the Nancy Salisman because I don't think your point a perpetrator

[00:10:35] in terms of access yeah listen watching the vow trust me I spent a lot of time on my couch going oh shit am I Nancy Salisman you definitely not you weren't perpetrating yeah no but I was unseeing now we don't know how unseeing she really was but I didn't know what I was looking at particularly once I started working when I started hosting the program for Warner and then working alongside directly with him and alongside his immediate

[00:11:05] intimate circle and apparatus and we want to hear all about that let's go back to the beginning and set the stage what was going on in your life who was Ann what was the version of Ann that walked into the first landmark event tell us about her and what drew you to him who invited you yeah I was 23 years up 25 no 25 but I had been living on my own since I was 16 I had my son when I was 15 and then had to move out literally I used to have this dramatic story about I moved out

[00:11:35] on my 16th birthday because my mom told me you have to be out by October 1st my birthday has to be October 2nd so I moved out me and my son literally got a job at McDonald's still to this day one of my favorite jobs by the way shout out to McDonald it was a great

[00:11:49] place to work it was really fun it became like my high school pseudo high school college atmosphere I got in with a gang of friends they love my son and then fast forward at 20 I marry my meat I got my man who became my first husband as that

[00:12:04] relationship going on I have my daughter he announces to me one day I'm gonna leave you my daughters two years old and I really thought when I met him like I had

[00:12:13] defied all the prediction of that team mom I wasn't on welfare anymore I didn't have five more children I wasn't in a I didn't think I was

[00:12:23] an abusive relationship but that's a whole other it turns out that a relationship does become somewhat abusive but he

[00:12:30] announces he's gonna leave me and I'm freaking out because my I made it story is going to get torn apart so I call my very best friend in the whole world who had been nagging me to do this program landmark forum for months forever I

[00:12:45] should even drag me to an event where they could have called pressured me I don't know if they really pressure beer not that's what it felt like and I remember telling her I'm not ever

[00:12:54] gonna do this program because I don't want to know what I don't know I don't know what I didn't want to know was that I was in a you said my

[00:13:02] abusive relationship with the wrong guy right so fast forward he's gonna leave me I think she's gonna fly get on an

[00:13:08] airplane and come out and help me for sort all this out but instead she literally screams at me on the phone not until you

[00:13:15] do the landmark forum because when you do the landmark forum even if you and Darren break up it'll be a choice not a

[00:13:22] decision and I'm sobbing and okay I'll do anything and she calls she puts me on a three way call we call the landmark center

[00:13:31] funny footnote we have no way of proving this but it's very likely that the person who answered the phone and

[00:13:36] registry in the forum is my current husband number two because he happened to be the manager he was the

[00:13:41] registration manager and it was a Monday so the chances of being somebody else that answer the phone when my

[00:13:48] girlfriend calls and says like I got my phone I friend on the phone we're gonna register her in the forum

[00:13:52] hilarious it was probably him wow that great yeah but yeah so it was really that I was a survivor and my life was

[00:13:58] falling apart and my best friend in the world said you have to do the landmark forum so many of my

[00:14:03] husband did it together actually my first husband what was it like what did it look like what was your first

[00:14:09] impressions tell me everything it was kind of scary it was scary mostly because I think I knew that was

[00:14:16] gonna be some line in the sand that was gonna cause a major change in my life and that did end up being

[00:14:20] true where I lived in Seattle the programs were done at the Seattle landmark Center so we had an

[00:14:25] office I think it's one of the very few that's still there they mostly shut it's my understanding they

[00:14:30] mostly shut down and gone online but there's still a few offices night leave a Seattle Center one is

[00:14:35] still there so you go down to the center and you walk into this which is plain office building was

[00:14:42] nice it was comfortable as simple a few pictures on the wall you go through these big double doors

[00:14:46] into this big room is like a giant like a ballroom but more of an office style look than the ball

[00:14:52] review at sea in a hotel stage up front all windows but on the windows all the blinds are closed they

[00:14:58] don't want you being distracted you know you get there too and everybody so happy to see you

[00:15:04] and they're congratulating you I admit that was so wild they don't even know me you know what it

[00:15:08] mean they're congratulating me I did register both myself and my then husband about to become

[00:15:14] exasperate but we think we're going into fix our marriage right and we're there together and he's

[00:15:20] being super weird he ended up having but probably what today with the knowledge I have today

[00:15:26] probably some kind of a break like a bit of a psychological break during the forum but we had been

[00:15:31] instructed even though we were doing it together to not really be together because we wanted the

[00:15:36] instruction was that we should each have our own landmark forum yeah and then we could come together

[00:15:40] and work on our stuff funny we used to do that in next game two you were always

[00:15:44] got separated as soon as you entered the doors I think might be smart thing to do smart so you

[00:15:49] you have this intention what were you confronted with like what were some of the like initial

[00:15:53] a haze that you had about yourself interestingly I mean I it's not that I don't remember my forum but

[00:16:00] most of the first I've done the landmark forum twice and the first time I did it which was that

[00:16:05] initial like occasion the whole thing occurs like there's like almost like white noise like when

[00:16:10] I look back at it and I do remember somebody getting up and sharing about having been raped there

[00:16:17] was this really dramatic thing and she has the thick breakthrough I was sitting there trying to not

[00:16:23] pay attention to my ex husband who's being a weirdo in the corner and for me a lot of it occurred

[00:16:30] like okay that makes sense okay that makes sense I'm pretty skeptical I'm pretty standoffish

[00:16:37] honestly I was the kind of person then who never ever spoken public I shouldn't look people in the

[00:16:43] eye when I talk to them and I was also but I was also very smart and I knew it and I was the kind

[00:16:47] of kind of sat in the middle and went yeah I know that I've heard that before yeah that's right

[00:16:53] I could agree with that so that was how my forum went and then my ex husband has a whole freak out

[00:16:59] my best friend flies out from Kansas City to be there for my Sunday night which is where the

[00:17:05] graduates that invite you can come and be she takes me to the table and she said I know I said the

[00:17:10] landmark forum was what was that it was about and you need that you have to do the in landmark you

[00:17:15] have to do the forum to do anything else it's the main program she got but my best friend walks me

[00:17:20] to the table and she says but it's really the advance course the advance course is like the fit

[00:17:26] and she had been volunteering a lot was very invested in advance course it was the advance course

[00:17:33] honestly that I had the biggest breakthrough it was the advance course that I really saw they have

[00:17:39] this process where you like write the story of your life and then you sit there with another person

[00:17:43] and you tell it to them over and over and over and over and at some point they start playing like

[00:17:48] the farmer in the Dell I don't know if they still do this but this is you know back in 1996

[00:17:53] and you start hearing this like nursery rhyme music and literally what happened for me and

[00:17:58] this is I now understand the design of it and what happens for most people in that moment you all

[00:18:02] decided to realize you're not that story that you are not that story you have a story those things

[00:18:07] maybe happened to you but you're not that story that was the most pivotable moment for me in my initial

[00:18:13] like that from there on I was like I liked the forum it was great I brother and law was going

[00:18:19] to do the next one I went and volunteered that was a weird experience but that advanced course

[00:18:24] which I did two months after the forum that was the first place where I would say change my life

[00:18:29] because I just got I wasn't locked into that story yeah we had a similar deciphering delusion

[00:18:33] deciphering delusions yeah is that where the term it's just your story because I know there's

[00:18:38] a lot of landmark vernacular story racket tell us about some of those terms that you learn

[00:18:45] the story thing comes from a distinction they call the vicious circle it's actually

[00:18:49] they're plain Jane languageing of its on their website on their syllabus but basically the vicious

[00:18:54] circle and we've I've now listened to a little bit culty enough to hear that there's versions of

[00:18:58] this and lots of different group but there's what's happening and there's what you're making it mean

[00:19:02] and they get collapsed and then you're interacting from what you made it mean not from what actually

[00:19:07] happened so then what happens once you get that concept you discover it for yourself that's

[00:19:12] a think-or-nor-term experience right you can't you don't just know it like an epistemological

[00:19:17] knowing that you actually experience it then everybody then you'll hear regularly like oh Sarah

[00:19:23] that's just your story that's just this so that becomes the shorthand right but let's

[00:19:27] little break that down for many because it isn't a lot of different programs what's good about

[00:19:31] that and what's bad about it that concept like what where is that useful and where is it used to abuse

[00:19:36] I think it's useful in that I've studied enough psychology and stuff now to know that is how

[00:19:41] the human brain works right they're happening and then those we make meaning out of things and

[00:19:45] that meaning can be really important this is one thing where I think it gets abused is when the

[00:19:51] meaning gets so diminished but meaning is important my daughter has been has dealt with a lot of

[00:19:57] suicidal thoughts in the last 10 years and one of the biggest things I saw walking that journey

[00:20:01] with her she had no hope she had no meaning she needed meaning to have like it was I've come to see as

[00:20:08] I've done more spiritual and psychological work that meaning does have a role so I think what

[00:20:13] happens when that distinction and you get indoctrinated in the idea that all your power all your

[00:20:19] performance and productivity power isn't just being related to the world the way it is there is

[00:20:24] power in that in my business if I'm not freaking out about something and I'm just dealing with oh

[00:20:29] I had this many sales and I need that many and I'm not making it mean that I'm incompetent or

[00:20:35] I'm a bomb yeah then that's a useful tool but it also can be taken and twisted that other way to

[00:20:42] to where you get the right way to be is with no meaning no story no interpretation which

[00:20:49] functionally isn't even possible for the human brain so good point yeah when you start interpreting

[00:20:54] things which you're going to because you have a human brain like then you think you're a bad student

[00:20:59] or you're a failed transformed person because you're still or you have more work to do so you keep

[00:21:04] doing courses but and also if you bring up a problem or something Europe said about it's just

[00:21:10] your story versus there's something that needs to be talked about right although in landmark I

[00:21:15] would say you always have landmarks pretty big right so you have instructors that take those

[00:21:21] distinctions and you have them well and you have instructors that don't sometimes right so it

[00:21:26] depends on who it is yeah it's you're dependent on the malevolence of the instructor sometimes

[00:21:31] right so would you say this is something that I've noticed a lot is if you have meaning and they

[00:21:36] minimize your meaning is then replaced by the mission of whatever said in landmark your meaning

[00:21:42] is replaced by the future that you invent or the possibility that you create okay but does that

[00:21:47] often involve being a part of landmark and growing landmarks vision or can you be individual

[00:21:54] of landmark and still use the tools and it's not a problem for people in landmark that you do that

[00:21:59] I think by far most people are individual actually statistic so some of my numbers are old because

[00:22:05] it's been a while since I was on inside my husband was a center manager he was like what you guys

[00:22:11] do with the Vancouver Center right so he managed the whole center people come in and they do the

[00:22:14] landmark forum I believe the last time I heard which were quite quite a while but I doubt they're

[00:22:19] different about 50 only about 50% go on and do the advanced course which is the second program

[00:22:24] in their core curriculum and then another 25 to 50 drop off 25% or so drop off by the time you

[00:22:30] get to the third program so you have a pretty big drop up those people who do the landmark forum

[00:22:36] and actually they get what they get it's hard to tell because landmark squashes any kind of criticism

[00:22:42] into my knowledge hasn't ever really allowed a truly objective study but anecdotally most people

[00:22:50] have a good experience and you'll hear that this part of why you guys have had a hard time

[00:22:54] finding people they're like no yeah there's some shitty stuff here there's some bad stuff

[00:22:58] particularly the business operation but the work is good and they don't want to hurt the work so

[00:23:02] they turn up we'll get to that but they turn a blind eye to the stuff that doesn't work because

[00:23:07] most people have a good experience and get value and honestly that gal that in my forum dealt with her

[00:23:14] rape hurt by the way my landmark for leader is a great man who's actually a good friend of mine today

[00:23:19] was at our wedding he left landmark a number of years ago he and I have been deconstructing a bit

[00:23:24] together which has been fun but one of the things that i've come to understand is that landmark

[00:23:30] is it elga at large group awareness training they will be upset to hear me say that but they are

[00:23:35] i don't think that in and of itself is bad but when you try to pretend it's something other than

[00:23:41] that like that it's an answer to your life that these tools are gonna fix your life that's a problem

[00:23:47] if you like you come in you do this training you have some insights a bunch of seeds get planted a

[00:23:52] bunch of doors get open that's where the value is and that's what i think most people experience

[00:23:58] but then if you go on and at the end of the program of course there's a push to do the next program

[00:24:04] and that's actually by the way when you said most people had a good experience even before

[00:24:08] like when we were in nexium and we had heard about landmark the only negative thing i had heard was

[00:24:14] the pressure to enroll that's where exploitation i think starts to come into play or when i now

[00:24:18] understand to be an exploitive practice which is at the end of your forum it's like hey this

[00:24:24] is a really great feeling that's one of the things with an elga right you get it's a group training

[00:24:28] is you get this euphoria that's not in and of itself bad but they tell you like okay if you want

[00:24:35] this to continue the best way to do that is have people your life do the forum and send it for

[00:24:40] the next one yeah literally i could give you this feel and probably enroll half your audience

[00:24:44] it's compelling oh yeah and i've actually known a lot of people who've never done any work on

[00:24:49] themselves and would never go to therapy and did the landmark forum and had some pretty big life

[00:24:55] shifts and let me say this landmark lawyers who are undoubtedly listening to the episode

[00:25:00] i will acknowledge that there are some wonderful things that can happen in the landmark weekend

[00:25:06] because i've seen it i've seen it occur i've actually been the recipient of one of the phone calls

[00:25:11] can you explain what happens with the phone calls where you oh yeah make amends so the phone calls

[00:25:16] we use this is how used to coach people is like anything that you say you know you're seeing your

[00:25:20] rackets right so your rackets a racket is a fixed way of being or a persistent complaint with a fixed

[00:25:27] way of being right people are always cutting me off and then your fixed way of being maybe is

[00:25:32] angry or irritated and then you okay fine but with your rackets comes a whole bunch of costs

[00:25:40] and payoff right so i get to be right i get to make others wrong all right the brain loves that

[00:25:46] but that's costing me affinity love relationship so that's the basics of of racket right it's actually

[00:25:53] really powerful also powerful distinction dr. Glenn Doyle was explaining to me the psychological

[00:25:58] corollary because there's something i've really seen about the whole because now i'm studying right now

[00:26:04] i'm learning elgat and i actually started when i after i left landmark i was doing this the work with

[00:26:10] Warner i started working with some other thought leaders dr. Glenn Doyle yeah but i started working

[00:26:15] with some other thought leaders doing content develop a work for them and one of them was a big

[00:26:20] yoga of doing that we both know that was when i started setting you know i was learning about elgas

[00:26:25] and learning about these distinctions and that one they're mostly derived from a lot of other things

[00:26:30] and they're not unique which that'll be the part that's i think for landmark the folks in

[00:26:36] landmark are related that landmark is unique it is special and there's nothing else out there like it

[00:26:41] which once you're out though and you start watching i've still never actually been able to watch

[00:26:47] the entire doc going clear movie i had to turn it off i couldn't watch it because i was having to

[00:26:52] deal with i had been so proud i'd never gotten into scientology and yet i'm watching this documentary

[00:26:57] seeing these same distinctions different languages different words but the same culture the same kind

[00:27:01] of thing and i'm like that was actually one of my first moment the shoot maybe i was in a cult

[00:27:07] like starting to have those doubts right but these distinctions they're useful they're tools and

[00:27:14] and they're particularly useful in the moment that you're in a program and you've got something on

[00:27:19] your lot of your life you're bringing into the program and you're looking at it and then they

[00:27:23] bring these tools to it and things open up you get openings that's i think that if people who

[00:27:29] sold these kind of programs where there's slamerco others actually just stayed in that lane maybe

[00:27:34] it'd be okay but they don't they start to say no this is the answer these tools are all you need

[00:27:41] right and then as you go into the leader bodies they cut you off you can't really participate

[00:27:46] in other things it just becomes so all consuming myopic and then you start using the tools in

[00:27:52] ways that you shouldn't this podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing supportive generous patrons

[00:28:00] are you with us come find us over on patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit coltie for bonus episodes

[00:28:07] exclusive content and the occasional zoom with our fan favorites from our past episodes it's

[00:28:12] a lot of fun over there people. Years of bad contracts with overpriced wireless companies taught me

[00:28:21] one thing there's always a catch so when i heard mint mobile offers premium wireless for 15 bucks

[00:28:27] a month i was skeptical but after actually talking to them it all made sense listeners we've

[00:28:32] done the research and get this there isn't one mint mobile cuts out the middleman and passes the

[00:28:37] savings on to you that's their secret sauce and why they offer premium wireless for a fraction of

[00:28:42] the cost if you're looking to save money and make your hard earned bucks go further mint mobile's got

[00:28:47] our seal approval for anyone who hates their phone bill don't hate celebrate because mint mobile

[00:28:53] offers premium wireless for 15 bucks a month all plans come with unlimited talking text plus

[00:28:58] high speed data delivered on the nation's largest 5g network choose from three six or 12 month plans

[00:29:04] and say goodbye to a monthly phone bill use your own phone with any mint mobile plan and keep

[00:29:09] your same phone number along with all your existing contacts switch to mint mobile and get your

[00:29:14] first three months of premium wireless service starting at just 15 bucks a month to get your new

[00:29:19] wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month and get the plan shipped to your door for free go to

[00:29:24] mint mobile dot com slash coltie that's mint mobile dot com slash coltie additional taxes fees

[00:29:31] and restrictions apply cement mobile for details hey listeners Sarah here look getting dressed should not

[00:29:37] break the bank but every now and then we want to get something special don't we that's why I'm obsessed

[00:29:43] with quince they've got the softest Mongolian cashmers wetters seriously like wearing a cloud

[00:29:48] for just $50 gorgeous silk tops organic cotton basics and even stunning 14 karat gold

[00:29:55] jewelry all at prices that actually make sense never ceases to amaze me because they always cut out

[00:30:01] all the middleman costs so you get that high end quality without the extreme price tag

[00:30:05] I'm talking stuff that rivals those designer brands but cost so much less and I love that they

[00:30:11] stand by ethical practices and amazing materials I personally recently stocked up on their cashmers

[00:30:17] sweatpants and classic teas and they become my go-to is my everyday items and I feel great in them

[00:30:22] and so comfortable I also love my new sunglasses in fact I think I need to make another quince

[00:30:27] purchase soon come to think of it join me ditch the overpriced stores and still treat yourself

[00:30:32] indulge in affordable luxury go to quince dot com slash coltie for free shipping on your order

[00:30:38] and 365 day returns that's qui nce dot com slash coltie to get free shipping and 365 day returns

[00:30:46] quince dot com slash coltie break times over people let's get back to this episode of a little bit

[00:30:53] coltie it's a good one the people who are listening and we have a fan base who write to us about

[00:31:01] wanting to know more about landmark and then there's been a couple people who've been like landmarks

[00:31:04] saved my life landmarks amazing how dare you call it a cult let's be clear there are wonderful tools

[00:31:09] that have been really helpful that have helped a lot of people that give people clarity in their

[00:31:13] lives as to why whatever bad thing is happening and how they can change it and give them new perspective

[00:31:20] new opportunities correct correct okay so then it goes south where does it go south now that you've

[00:31:27] done all this research in your out what would the red flags that you missed the first place that it

[00:31:33] goes south is the on again off again pressure to bring up people in your life why do I say that now

[00:31:40] I could literally put on the other hat and give you the landmark rebuttal for why that isn't true

[00:31:44] right but i'm in it we'll let them do that why i'm going to say that's true is because

[00:31:49] when i buy something it doesn't tell me that the only way i'm going to get to enjoy those genes

[00:31:53] is if my friend Sarah buys them too it doesn't hang my value and my breakthroughs and my insight

[00:32:01] or the continuation of it or the realization of it over time on my bringing other people in so it's

[00:32:08] like that tying together my value with my ability with my getting other people in i think is exploited

[00:32:16] i've come to see that is exploitive i didn't before but i do now it's coercive control

[00:32:21] for the time you're like of course i'd want to share this why when you want to share something

[00:32:24] amazing with people that you love and then you can create a community of like minded people who

[00:32:28] are all gonna hold you accountable and grow together how incredible is that and at that level like

[00:32:33] now that i'm over the years talked to a lot of people and i'm just sharing the work i'm doing

[00:32:38] now with some with people who have pretty much everybody i know has a deep landmark background

[00:32:43] right but i now have a number of people they're sharing with me about relatives that stop talking

[00:32:47] to them years ago because they wouldn't stop talking to them about landmark i have relatives

[00:32:52] that don't talk to us so in the forum you're being really driven like they did this whole special

[00:32:58] event one time about the sewer like the way to transformation is by getting into the muck

[00:33:03] getting into the dirt getting into where you have been an asshole so one of the sayings in the

[00:33:08] originating programs around est was what you got out of est was you're an asshole and your life

[00:33:14] doesn't work so you could say that the forum while it's been updated and lightened up in a lot of

[00:33:21] ways it really has but it still funn them mentally about getting honest about where you're an asshole

[00:33:27] and your life doesn't work or we lightened up like i used to coach people call the people in your life

[00:33:32] and i've been being a racket with you i've had this complaint and i've been being this way with you

[00:33:38] and it's i've been being right about xyz and i've been making you wrong for abc and that's been

[00:33:44] costing us the love and affinity that we could have and that's the structure they actually give you

[00:33:49] a structure for how to make those calls and how to share and i just gave you a backbone of one or

[00:33:54] in the program i led which was a senior graduate program we would say anytime you call people and

[00:33:58] start with i have been such a fool and anything that comes after that will lead to a breakthrough

[00:34:04] lead to transformation will lead to a restoration of affinity of love relationship it's like a man's

[00:34:11] in a it is yeah yeah yeah i was i said i was the recipient of that call when somebody had no idea

[00:34:17] was still upset about something but great i still have people call me my worst call i hate this call

[00:34:22] and as people will tell me i led programs for thousands of people and from time to time i would get

[00:34:27] calls like two three four years later i just have to call and tell you i was making you wrong

[00:34:32] because when you led my course at one time you said xyz can't think of a specific example but you

[00:34:38] said something about witches and i'm actually in wica and i felt really insulted so i made you wrong

[00:34:44] it's very masked i made you really wrong and so then you just couldn't contribute anything to me

[00:34:50] after that and i'm really sorry you couldn't contribute anything to but by the way do you know

[00:34:54] that wica is that that's how it starts to get used in ways that are not helpful i got it yeah we

[00:35:02] we had a similar thing about giving feedback you're trying to own your projection but really

[00:35:06] you're giving somebody feedback calling them how they're wrong yeah my analogy now is look you can

[00:35:11] use a screwdriver to build something build a fault or you can use a screwdriver to murder people

[00:35:15] it's not about the screwdriver it's about the intent and how you're using it we say the knife in

[00:35:21] the hands of a surgeon or the knife in the hands of a murderer well it sounds like these guys

[00:35:24] were buddies yeah i have a question for you i remember taking my first training having i guess i

[00:35:30] had one one experience that was like okay this is pretty good and everything else is a little bit

[00:35:34] weird but i remember telling myself i'm never gonna come to albany new york and live here and then i

[00:35:39] left i was out for like a couple years and then they brought me back to work on a film so that's how

[00:35:44] they got me back to albany new york right and then i was there and i remember being in albany a few

[00:35:50] years in and going i remember telling myself i'm never gonna live here and i had a place there

[00:35:55] there's always something weird for me to reconcile so did you have a moment i'm never gonna work for

[00:35:59] landmark i was never interested in landmark and then have a moment of hey i think i'm gonna work

[00:36:03] here or what was that catalyst so fast forward after i do the forum my husband who was gonna

[00:36:09] leave me i'm like oh yeah that's probably good idea you said i will i'll be back i'll be back

[00:36:15] actually i was like as soon as i said yeah that's a good idea i said my marriage counselor

[00:36:19] was so impressed by how we were coming out of the forum that he did the very next landmark forum

[00:36:25] and then he helped me know what my husband out and then i had to get a restraining order like it got

[00:36:29] nasty it got really ugly oh and then he tried to have the d-programmed he was trying to have

[00:36:35] me d-programmed and he said i was in a cold and like all this crazy stuff it was crazy but he also

[00:36:40] may have been right about the culprit he passed away sadly in 2020 he would be so gratified sorry

[00:36:45] but when my daughter listens to this podcast she'll go see dad she laughs yeah we have the people

[00:36:52] to say oh you were right yeah sorry about that so there was lots of those little moments along the way

[00:36:58] right as i do the programs and i'm like these are great and i'm i start my own business like i'm

[00:37:04] doing all this up but i'm never gonna work there and i'm never gonna be a leader even when i

[00:37:08] went into their leadership program i did it to hone my sales skills i was never gonna be a leader

[00:37:13] and then i love that program so much i became a leader of that program i became a leader of their

[00:37:18] leadership that's like awesome and then i do this course the wisdom course so i thought was silly

[00:37:22] but in the fourth week it's a year-long course and the fourth week in the wisdom course i'm like

[00:37:26] i have to be a wisdom course leader so i was never not only when i was never gonna do the course

[00:37:30] i was never gonna be a leader and then i became a leader then now i'm dating my now husband who's on

[00:37:37] staff i'm never gonna go on staff it's a terrible environment it's awful i don't like it luck

[00:37:42] then when i got off for the opportunity to be a wisdom staff member i took it and these are

[00:37:46] ways to summarize i realized i want to hear about your trajectory but it's confusing for people who

[00:37:52] don't know the difference between est and warner and landmark and the forum and now wisdom there's

[00:37:57] a lot of names here i know can you break it down a little bit do we need a graph do we need a chart

[00:38:01] i'm actually thinking about putting a drawing in my book this confusing but really really

[00:38:06] simply warner airheart is a guy he starts asked air heart seminar trainings it becomes super famous

[00:38:13] it was like before to any rabbit he was on the cover of time magazine wasn't he was on the cover

[00:38:18] of time magazine he was filling forum but actual forums like the felt forum in Los Angeles doing

[00:38:24] self-help or human potential back in the 70s big came a big mega star for those 70s and 80

[00:38:31] air heart seminar trainings it starts to wane a little bit they change it to air heart something w

[00:38:36] e and a or something anyway bunch of controversy happens in the late 80s 89 and he has to leave and

[00:38:43] it's basically there's a lot of rumors about it there's a lot of stuff being said about it i don't

[00:38:48] know 100 but supposedly the Scientologists were out to get him and turn them into the IRS and

[00:38:54] there's all of this drama and all the stuff so he turns over his work to a group of employees that

[00:39:01] group of employees become landmark initially landmark education now i believe it's landmark worldwide

[00:39:08] and i believe they're going through another reinvention so they're probably team they'll keep

[00:39:11] landmark but they're probably changing again that's landmark warner leaves he leaves the scene

[00:39:18] and when i came into landmark we literally and i do the leadership training there's a whole packet

[00:39:22] about how to answer questions about warner and asked and how he is not a part of the organization

[00:39:27] he has nothing to do with it the organization bought the rights to his technology and is its own

[00:39:33] thing sorry did you say technology oh yeah technology the technology i don't remember the tech

[00:39:39] hello Scientology hello nexium technology the tech tech good for yeah or how about this one

[00:39:49] did you guys have that i'm going to clear you this is part of why i couldn't watch the clearing

[00:39:53] movie we didn't say clear did we never no no it wasn't clear well we did like an e-m-u e-m-u yeah i'm

[00:40:01] still trying to get it out of my language like even getting ready for this today i'm like talking

[00:40:05] to my husband i said hey i need to clear a little bit so the rumor is yeah the warner was an auditor

[00:40:11] in the Scientology system i don't know whether that's i don't have any verifiable evidence that's

[00:40:16] true but there is a lot of the Scientology kind of evidence that's why i couldn't when i was watching

[00:40:20] that movie i was getting freaked oh yeah us too i took notes of all the comparables and i was like

[00:40:25] holy fucking shit balls yeah yeah yeah my soul just jump up and down on a couch

[00:40:31] and now a brief message from our little bit culty sponsors

[00:40:38] years of bad contracts with overpriced wireless companies taught me one thing there's always

[00:40:43] a catch so when i heard meant mobile offers premium wireless for 15 bucks a month

[00:40:48] i was skeptical but after actually talking to them it all made sense listeners we've done the

[00:40:53] research and get this there isn't one meant mobile cuts out the middleman and passes the savings

[00:40:57] on to you that's their secret sauce and why they offer premium wireless for a fraction of the cost

[00:41:03] if you're looking to save money and make your hard earned bucks go further meant mobiles got

[00:41:07] our seal approval for anyone who hates their phone bill don't hate celebrate because meant

[00:41:13] mobile offers premium wireless for 15 bucks a month all plans come with unlimited talk and text

[00:41:18] plus high speed data delivered on the nation's largest 5g network choose from three six or 12 month

[00:41:24] plans and say goodbye to a monthly phone bill use your own phone with any meant mobile plan and keep

[00:41:29] your same phone number along with all your existing contacts switch to meant mobile and get your

[00:41:34] first three months of premium wireless service starting at just 15 bucks a month to get your new

[00:41:39] wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month and get the plan shipped to your door for free go to

[00:41:44] meant mobile dot com slash Colt that's meant mobile dot com slash Colt additional taxes fees

[00:41:51] and restrictions apply cement mobile for details hey listeners Sarah here look getting dressed should

[00:41:57] not break the bank but every now and then we want to get something special don't we that's why

[00:42:02] i'm obsessed with quince they've got the softest Mongolian cashmere sweaters seriously like wearing

[00:42:08] a cloud for just $50 gorgeous silk tops organic cotton basics and even stunning 14 karat gold

[00:42:15] jewelry all at prices that actually make sense never ceases to amaze me because they always cut out

[00:42:21] all the middleman costs so you get that high end quality without the extreme price tag i'm talking

[00:42:27] stuff that rivals those designer brands but cost so much less and i love that they stand by ethical

[00:42:32] practices and amazing materials i personally recently stocked up on their cashmere sweatpants

[00:42:37] and classic teas and they become my go-to is my everyday items and i feel great in them and so

[00:42:43] comfortable i also love my new sunglasses in fact i think i need to make another quince purchase soon

[00:42:48] come to think of it join me ditch the overprice stores and still treat yourself indulge in affordable

[00:42:54] luxury go to quince dot com slash Colt for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns that's

[00:43:01] q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash Colt to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince dot com slash Colt

[00:43:10] you've heard from our sponsors now let's get back to a little bit Coltie shall we

[00:43:15] so then landmark warners out he's off doing other things whatnot but landmark is being run by the

[00:43:21] ceo is his younger brother Harry Rosenberg and the head of the centers division which is

[00:43:27] the primary division that people interact with that that manages all the core programs the forum

[00:43:33] the advanced course these are all core program and then there's seminars that's his sister

[00:43:39] john Rosenberg so i come in i'm mostly related to them i know who they are warners like this ghost

[00:43:47] and i make the announcement my book it was like listening to ghost stories when you would hear

[00:43:51] the warner stories and but he wasn't around that we knew of and then we started to hear some stuff

[00:43:58] a girlfriend of mine who's working they have a license that they give to consultant management

[00:44:02] consultants to do this kind of work in businesses and all the sudden warner shows up at one of their

[00:44:08] conferences he's there like wow okay i think that was around 2008 so you start hearing about him

[00:44:15] popping in the background here and there at some of the subsidiary things he's not really

[00:44:21] participating or doing anything directly landmark that you know of but if you're logical you can't

[00:44:26] believe he probably doesn't talk to a brother or sister she's originally jack Rosenberg right

[00:44:30] yeah john paul or jack Rosenberg this is original name do you know why he changed it to

[00:44:35] warner at heart i know what's written there's a really great great book outrageous betrayal that

[00:44:41] was a big part of my waking up reading that book but that basically he's on he's coming out from

[00:44:46] Philadelphia which is where he's from he leaves his family that takes off in a car owned by the

[00:44:52] car dealer then he's selling cars for and starts with his new family a new woman who's pregnant

[00:44:59] and they start heading west to build a new life of some sort or other and somewhere along that way

[00:45:05] he's reading you don't have it exactly i just read this yesterday too and i can't remember it exactly

[00:45:10] but he's reading it article in s. quire and he hears about these two German scientists it's like

[00:45:16] a scientist in a philosopher or something like that and one and he does a combination of their name

[00:45:21] warner and air heart and he changes his name he's nope from here on out i'm gonna be warning

[00:45:26] our heart you know i'm sure he probably changed it legally somewhere but that became his name

[00:45:31] fascinating okay so it's hard to believe that he wouldn't talk to his siblings who are running

[00:45:36] this organization that he is the source of also wipe up back up it isn't it isn't but later

[00:45:42] i'm working with him and i've been in not inside circle one of his daughters was actually in the

[00:45:47] program i was hosting and she came to me because the L over request would come through me from the

[00:45:51] whether it's from the participants or my clients which were the program leaders were there was one

[00:45:56] of them everything came through me and his daughter actually gave me a request asking if i could

[00:46:02] find out if i could pass this note asking if she could get some time to see her dad while they were

[00:46:08] there and i was really startled by that i was like what you don't you can't just text him or

[00:46:12] call him or whatever like you're sending a note through me the program host to make a request

[00:46:17] for you his daughter to spend some time with him and we're all here together wow for 10 days

[00:46:22] well it wasn't like it was a one or two day thing so i don't know how much he talked to his brother

[00:46:27] sister i do know now i should say i know because of the things people have told me but that

[00:46:33] there are different people like the head of r&d that would work with Warner have one or two times a

[00:46:39] year where they could go and work with Warner to develop distinctions that's what we call them

[00:46:45] distinctions right like the pieces of the tech were distinctions racket is a distinction so

[00:46:50] i think that now looking back with what i know now i think that he always had some kind of consulting

[00:46:57] definitely know he was getting money because as a as an employee first my husband and then

[00:47:02] mean we were part of the employee shareholder plan and you would see payments they didn't say they

[00:47:06] were going to Warner but it was everybody knew that's what that was he's gotten some kind of

[00:47:11] reneuriation through landmark either for consulting services or now they're saying i think

[00:47:16] that they're leasing that they have that somehow they're paying for the rights of tech it goes back

[00:47:21] and forth between they own it to their licensing it i don't know which is actually true

[00:47:27] and do we know what he was doing from the time that he apparently left to when he popped back on

[00:47:31] the scene in 2008 and why pop back up then that's so interesting the why pop up part nippy thanks

[00:47:37] i think i was a big part of his popping back up but there's different things we know he went off

[00:47:43] to russia and he worked through an organization russia there's a great new york times article that

[00:47:47] actually pretty well lays this out from 2015 but he does some work in russia for a couple of years

[00:47:53] he did some work in irland he has all these really great stories i heard of a bunch of times about

[00:47:58] how he worked with the two during the big irish wars that he actually did work with both sides

[00:48:04] the catholic and whatever protested side did some work with them he was a commediator he did some

[00:48:10] kind of there was an organization that started that's actually really great there's a bunch of

[00:48:14] really great stuff that spun off of things that he launched and then people pick him up and do

[00:48:19] really great things within the mastery foundation which brings together all these religious groups for

[00:48:24] conversation and talking and whatnot but so he's doing stuff like that then he at some point he goes

[00:48:30] to japan and literally builds a whole other organization landmark style we're an air heart associate

[00:48:37] style organization in japan and they're doing forums they're doing big programs and he does that

[00:48:43] in partnership with a long time graduate drone down look this is a community like i call it the

[00:48:49] www wacky world of work landmark as part of it he has sold and resold and licensed and authorized

[00:48:56] his work in all kinds of different places to all kinds of different groups and organizations many

[00:49:01] times over lulu lemon that's a little bit of it so lulu chip who was the founder of lulu does the

[00:49:07] forum finds it fabulous i know chip actually i interviewed chip so do i i'm going to tell you my

[00:49:13] chip sorry i have great chip stories so chip of course gets completely turned on has lulu do

[00:49:19] scholarships for anybody who wants to do the forum becomes very of course the executives at landmark

[00:49:24] are like thrilled to death make levitt becomes his coach make levitt's the incoming and new CEO

[00:49:30] good guy actually as far as i don't i've always liked mc but they're thrilled because for landmark

[00:49:36] it's a flood of customers same thing happens with pandegs pressed by the way i didn't know that

[00:49:40] nera bread there's a number of organization look here's a thing people do the forum and it's

[00:49:47] flipping great and then they want everybody to do it it's a structure yeah the structure also for

[00:49:53] communication i think is important for people to know like when you go through the programs and

[00:49:57] assuming as i've done landmark but you come out on the other side with oh i can clearly articulate

[00:50:01] a lot of internal shit that i've never been able to articulate before and it's efficient

[00:50:05] also right it's like a fast yeah it's short forms a lot of interpersonal dynamics communications

[00:50:15] processes of right what's often been quite complicated and then you if i had a company i know this

[00:50:21] because i had this the next game i wanted everyone to do it i get totally get that but see landmarks

[00:50:26] out it info traded out in a lot of things so then they have business divisions that do this in

[00:50:31] business and have all these different avenues and pathways i was in a conversation one time where

[00:50:37] literally the you know one of the higher ups at that time is talking about their secret world domination

[00:50:43] plan right which is but it's not that different than when i watch shiny happy people and they're

[00:50:48] talking about getting that education in and all the getting people into politics yeah in that era

[00:50:56] landmark they're starting to do i think word is consulting is probably the official thing that he's

[00:51:01] doing in some way chamber form with them and a guy by name of mike jensen daughter dead de forum

[00:51:08] and they hadn't had a relationship she has he gets one of those phone calls and they repair their

[00:51:13] relationship and mike has so blown away he's like what the heck and she goes i did the forum so

[00:51:18] he goes off and does the forum he's a well-known Harvard professor well-known figure in semi-famous

[00:51:25] famous economist and he goes off he does the forum and he's blown away here's how he always told

[00:51:32] the story which was hilarious he lived in Connecticut and flew through New Jersey a lot and he said

[00:51:36] by being knows the new jazzy airport is full of assholes like it's terrible and after he does the

[00:51:40] forum he's flying back home and he's in the new jersey airport and he notices that everybody seems

[00:51:44] really nice like everybody in the which that's another forum kind of trope or joke is like you go

[00:51:50] away into the landmark forum and everybody else gets better because you figured out you were the

[00:51:53] asshole it's your projection right mike is blown away but he particularly blown away by how in

[00:51:59] three days and the evening you could shift your sense of yourself like who in who you're being

[00:52:04] and how other people are showing up for you so he gets he's an academic and he gets fascinated with

[00:52:11] what is this kind of education he gets into the methodology and wanting to understand how you could

[00:52:17] educate people in that way and he would tell this funny story about Harvard had been training

[00:52:21] people in the ethics but how many Harvard graduates are in jail because of ethics violation they

[00:52:27] weren't sending people out of Harvard being ethical so he wants to get into that contact landmark

[00:52:32] that a bunch of stuff happens they connect him with Steve Zafron who runs the business development

[00:52:37] division at that time they start doing some courses some experimental courses at Harvard through

[00:52:44] not in the core curriculum but they all have these little auxiliary program so they start playing

[00:52:50] with some of that Werner Steve's very connected to Werner Steve's been part was a part of the S-Dorgon

[00:52:55] all the way back to the beginning I now know I didn't know that at that time but I now know he's

[00:53:00] been pretty much at Werner's side or vast majority of his career so they Werner gets involved they

[00:53:06] ask Werner to observe what they're doing Mike convinces Werner that he needs to leave his work to

[00:53:13] academia that he needs that if he really wants a legacy and he wants it to grow he should leave his

[00:53:18] work with the academy anyway long story short you can read the longer version in my book but they

[00:53:23] decide to do this course to develop a course that they're going to give away to academia as

[00:53:27] called being a leader in the effective exercise leadership and I end up hosting that program

[00:53:35] public offering of that program so that they can develop it and get basically I'm paying all

[00:53:40] the bills to bring him Werner Mike Jensen Steve Zafron Carrie Granger originally was part of that

[00:53:48] and then a group of colleagues together to develop this leadership course that they're going to

[00:53:54] give to academia that's going to introduce into academia an ontological phenomenological approach

[00:54:00] to educating people explain those two words please for our audience I do know how to spell them now

[00:54:06] which I'm very proud of experiential is that right that'd be a short hand way to say it but

[00:54:11] that's pretty much it ontological as the study of being phenomenological or the study of phenomenology

[00:54:15] but what they're really referring to is exactly what Mike was saying is how do we actually educate

[00:54:19] people so they have access to shifting who there be not just knowing intellectuals just knowing right

[00:54:26] and all those colleagues they come together Mike wants to get that kind of thinking into like his

[00:54:32] dream was to see schools of ontological phenomenological methodology in academia studying that it's

[00:54:39] such a fancy way of saying next we call that experiential and inductive and once you have an

[00:54:45] inductive experience of something then you know it like skiing or riding a bike you can't learn

[00:54:49] about it in a book right but those two words sound real fancy aren't they yeah so

[00:54:55] like they got to harbor to understand that yeah ontological and from 2012 to 2019 I spent most

[00:55:04] of my time working with these guys on that project and a lot of time hanging around all these big

[00:55:08] academics which was a huge deal for a girl who dropped out of school in the ninth grade

[00:55:13] and it was worked in McDonald's and was a bank tower and a collection agent and how did that feel

[00:55:19] it was pretty cool you said something I'm one of your podcasts one time I was like walking around

[00:55:23] and I literally started yelling I'm like that's it is I was popular I was like sitting it wasn't

[00:55:28] about just being popular it was I always wanted to go to college and I didn't get that chance like

[00:55:34] I couldn't do that and raise my kids I had to work and I was sitting with Mike one time and yeah

[00:55:39] and he told me he's like where the hell did you get your education he said the streets and books

[00:55:44] I said and hanging out with people like you he and I became good friends he's still one of my

[00:55:49] favorite people but yeah it was heady it was heady and then we were these guys loved like top-end

[00:55:55] restaurants and and I was hosting them so I was sitting around dinner tables when five six seven

[00:56:02] eight hundred dollar dinners and having conversations about ontological stuff it was cool it was

[00:56:09] cool it was as cool glamorous inner circle stuff I know and I totally feel that like anyone has been

[00:56:15] where you've been and understands the glamour and the fun and the specialness of the inner circle

[00:56:21] and I know our audience will be dying to know what it was like when you first met Werner

[00:56:26] and what that was like and what your impressions were and what the trajectory was from meeting him

[00:56:31] to really seeing the man behind the curtain and how you eventually decided to leave and wake up

[00:56:38] and speak out and eventually be a whistleblower so we're going to have to wait to part two for our

[00:56:44] episode on a little bit culty so everybody enjoy do the research we'll put some of those articles

[00:56:50] that Ann mentioned in our show notes if you're dying to know more and between now and when this

[00:56:56] episode drops you want to make some phone calls and apologize to people for being an asshole you can

[00:57:01] totally do that and you don't have to join the forums you have some homework to do people thank you

[00:57:06] Ann for your setup for the rest of part two on this week's deep dive on a little bit of culty

[00:57:13] like what you hear do you give us a rating or review and subscribe on iTunes every little bit helps us

[00:57:19] get this cult awareness content out there smash that subscribe button you know you want to

[00:57:24] thank you dear listeners that was part one of our chat with Ann Peterson and we'll be back soon

[00:57:33] with a very very exciting part two her memoir is this a cult confronting the line between transformation

[00:57:41] and exploitation is now out on Amazon and we'll put that link in our show notes since confronting

[00:57:46] what she's called the big lie of our landmark experience and has also launched a business of her own

[00:57:51] dedicated to the safe ethical practices of providing personal development you can learn more about it

[00:57:56] at illuminate.life and don't worry we'll have all those things in the show notes and was also recently

[00:58:01] on two episodes of the Seek Safely podcast if you want to hear more about her story so listeners what

[00:58:06] do you think anyone out there got a landmark story of their own we're all ears talked to us

[00:58:11] sing his praises and we'll listen to that too we're all friends here because guess what we're not

[00:58:15] on a cult anymore we can have different opinions isn't that amazing leave us a voice mill at a little

[00:58:19] bit culty.com slash voice mill until next time don't sign up for an L gap and maybe approach landmark

[00:58:25] with nice big grain of salt okay okay okay see you next time okay

[00:58:49] thanks for listening everyone we're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culty now

[00:58:55] to discuss this episode in the meantime dear listener please remember this podcast is solely

[00:59:01] for general informational educational and entertainment purposes it's not intended as a substitute

[00:59:06] for real medical legal or therapeutic advice for cult recovery resources and to learn more about

[00:59:11] Seeking Safely in this culty world check out alubicultie.com slash culty resources and don't miss

[00:59:17] Sarah's TED talk called How Cult Literate Are You Great Stuff. A little bit culty is a trace 120

[00:59:23] production executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer

[00:59:28] Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard

[00:59:33] Jess Temple Tardy our show writer is Holly Zedra and our theme song Cultivated is by John Bryant