The Kids Are Alright: Sarah & Nippy on Zen Parenting

[00:00:00] The views and opinions expressed by a little bit culty are those of the hosts, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast. No they don't. Any of the ridiculously thought-provoking content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors,

[00:00:14] or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything. Also, we're not Dr. Psychologists or her supreme holiness, Gwyneth Peltrow. Goop! Just two mortals trying to make a gluten-free, holistically helpful podcast that helps inform

[00:00:30] and entertains and maybe moisturizes. Silky silky smooth. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here, and I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side. We've been there and back again.

[00:00:59] A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult, and then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge. The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow, now in its second season.

[00:01:11] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped next to him, the cult that bound my life. Look at us, couple married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night

[00:01:23] where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe. We got to schedule that, that's separate. So it's two days? We got to have a day?

[00:01:33] We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium. Still on that journey and we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers. We know all too well that culty things happen.

[00:01:45] It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level marketing. This stuff really is everywhere. The cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we.

[00:02:00] Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com. Well hello there handsome husband. Just saw it sweetheart. So we're sitting here recording in our new home in Atlanta.

[00:02:35] I can actually see you right now. This is really nice. You look great. Habit. One of my new habits for the New Year. Looking great. Although I don't feel great. Why not? Because I've been running around dropping our kids off. God damn, I say god damn.

[00:02:49] You know what? It has been a whirlwind. We just got back from our trip and so far this bi-coastal thing is it's exciting but it's also a lot and this is a New Year's episode for you. I know a lot of podcasts take hiatuses. Hiatus. Hi-tie.

[00:03:04] I'm only that one. Hi-tem. They take breaks. How about that? They take breaks at this time of year. We didn't want to take a break but we also needed a break so we decided to

[00:03:13] share an episode with you that we did for a fabulous parenting podcast called Zen Parenting Radio. We'll put all their information in our show notes. But Kathy and Todd interviewed us a couple months back and we wanted to share it

[00:03:26] because many of you have been reaching out saying what do we say to our kids? Which I love. We're getting a lot of requests but we have had a lot of requests about what do you do as parents? What do you do as parents?

[00:03:35] And ironically, even though this is a parenting podcast, we didn't really get to that till the end and there's some good nuggets there. So do listen to the end. On our journey there, Kathy and Todd wanted to make sure their audience knew who

[00:03:44] we were and what our story was all about. And I really appreciate how this episode kind of encapsulates a lot of what we've learned this year, not just this year since we've started the podcast. What are the main sound bites from Stephen Hassan, Yanya Lalich, Amanda Montell.

[00:03:59] I also really appreciated how Nippy encapsulated what was the good parts about SOP, like what did we think we were signing up for? Which also answers a lot of questions people have been asking us, could you do an episode on SOP? Could you do an episode on Janess?

[00:04:14] And we probably will. But until then here's a couple of crumbs. Yeah. I mean, I think generally what you're saying is that in getting the questions it allows us to take inventory on our knowledge and our wisdom and then

[00:04:26] say it and then to hear it kind of verifies that we've kind of closed that chapter in our psychology is because we can just talk about it with wisdom. Right.

[00:04:34] And rarely do I like the sound of my own voice, but I was like, yeah, I got this one. I'm going to pump your tires. You sounded very articulate. Go on. Stop, stop. Tell me more about it. Tell me more. Yeah, I think it's worth listening to.

[00:04:49] There might be some redundancy for those of you who've heard us on other podcasts or even just listened to this podcast. Speaking of which, if you haven't heard us over on We Can Do Hard Things with

[00:04:59] Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach or on the Jordan Harbinger show, those are two big interviews. Yeah, really big. And I told Jordan when I was on his show, his podcast was one of the first I listened to in terms of like on Colts because he interviewed Stephen Hassan.

[00:05:12] So it was cool to kind of have that experience of him talking to us. But one other thing was in the line of what I think you were thinking is is this interview is good because they are layman, somewhat peripheral,

[00:05:23] except she's followed the vow, but the husband Todd is kind of the audience we want to reach. Like I've said, if this didn't happen to me, I wouldn't have watched the vow and I wouldn't listen to my podcast. And that's just true.

[00:05:36] I would have been focused on something else and I probably would have been like, yeah, that's just someone else's story. But because it happened to me and it happened in the way that did, it just opened up a lane for me to explain it.

[00:05:45] And I think that there's a lot of guys that kind of used to be how I was and that sort of thing that I think could just hear it. You know, they don't have to change, oh, I'm susceptible now.

[00:05:54] But they just understanding the precursors for that kind of layman dude in a way. I don't mean that's not the best way of putting it, but like a dad is busy or like he needs to know to look out for his kids.

[00:06:04] And that's why I think this is a good podcast because we're hitting a different demographic and kind of a mainstream demographic. And also the demographic of so many of us who similar to parents, but also just seekers, people who want to take a coaching program and

[00:06:17] people who want to better themselves or do a spiritual book club and not get caught up in something shitty. So this is a really enjoyable conversation for us, really nice to meet such a similar couple and to find another podcast host who cries as much

[00:06:32] as I do. So that's great. She did bring it home. She did. You like to bring it home. I like to bring it home. Yeah, I like to bring it home and like settle it in by the campfire with your cocoa and appreciate you, Nip. Shut it here.

[00:06:43] I see you. I appreciate you. It's from Kirby enthusiasm. That's Larry David. I see you. I value you. I acknowledge you. But if you know the characters in that, Jeff's wife, her basic role is cussing out Larry David and Jeff Carlin. Somebody's got to do it.

[00:06:57] Yeah, I guess so. Don't really have to do it. Anyway, enjoy the episode. Welcome back to a little bit culty. We have great guests lined up for the year. And again, please do follow us over on Patreon. We're going to do some social media about this.

[00:07:08] But what I realized is that I think a lot of people don't even know what Patreon is. So I'm just gonna. I didn't. We didn't either. I didn't until I recorded an episode for it. So for those of you who don't know, you can listen to this podcast

[00:07:21] ad free for $5 a month with the Patreon app and news slash podcasts are free. We don't pay for them. And we don't really consider, hey, podcasts also take a lot of resources to make. So if you like it and you want to support the pod, that's

[00:07:34] a great way to do it. I know many of you have been supporting us over on donor box just to support, which has been incredible. Ten dollars a month. You listen ad free and there's a bonus episode every week. And we're going to start doing things like interviewing

[00:07:46] former random members and just shooting the shit with them. And we're going to do debrief of every episode of the vow for $15 a month. The next tier is flying monkey. The other two are loyalist fanatics, flying monkey. And we're going to do more live streams, even though the

[00:08:00] vow season two is over, we're going to debrief season one and other called podcasts. And the most dedicated members. We're gonna have a cocktail and riff. We're going to have a cocktail and riff. But if you're an inner circle member, you'll also get a care package from us.

[00:08:13] You must be in the United States. Yeah, because. Shit, we found out. We found out. I can't tell the story about when we showed up to the post office and Sarah had been there mailing. The packages like took a long time to mail up.

[00:08:26] And there's this kind of old school dude just kind of chilling back there and Sarah rolls in and goes, uh, you remember me? And he goes, oh yeah. Rolls his eyes. Rolls his eyes and I was like, you feel my pain. But he was great.

[00:08:39] I didn't really think about the logistics of handwriting and packaging up a hundred packages for our inner circle members. With the hat and the book. But if you want to sign copy of my book, that's the way to do it inner circle.

[00:08:51] And that also really helps support the podcast. So anyway, that's what Patreon is. It's an app. You get all those things at every level. There's another perk and we have a lot of fun over there and there's a discord channel and there's a lot of bonus random

[00:09:03] stuff that we drop on the Patreon feed. Yeah. And I check it normally twice a day unless I'm running around. Rarely do I miss a day where I don't just check in, throw you a tweet or two. That's all we have to say or a Patreon tweet. Patreon.

[00:09:15] So come join us over there, not in a culty way and enjoy this episode. Let us know what you think on the Instagram. Bye for now. Bye for now. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 675. But why listen to Zen Parenting Radio?

[00:09:43] Because it'll help you to feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which we stole from Dr. Dan Siegel, which is the best predictor of a child's well-being is a parent's self-understanding. We have two wonderful guests with us, Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy

[00:10:00] Ames and sweetie, I know we're going to do an intro, but why don't you just do your best to see how these two people have influenced you? Well, these are my two friends, even though I've never met them in

[00:10:10] person before because I have been following their story for, I don't know you guys, how long has it been? A couple years? Like when did five years? Yeah. And so, and that's the thing is I also say things like, oh, this

[00:10:22] happened two years ago and it happened a decade ago. So don't mind. That's just aging yourself. It is. It is. Like my daughter's like 20 and I'll talk about something that happened when she was 11 and Todd's like, that was like a full decade ago.

[00:10:34] But I have been since the beginning, I'm trying to think of the first time I was introduced to Sarah. I think it was Escaping Nexium, which was a podcast that randomly was like a friend of yours from preschool or something like that, Sarah. Right? Yeah.

[00:10:47] Josh Block from Daycare. That's right. And so what I want to do before we jump into that is I, because I listen to your podcast and I know you guys kind of have your five

[00:10:55] minutes down of like, and it can be as long as you want it to be, but your story. So then when Todd and I launch in with our questions, people already know the basics of what happened, even though there's lots of layers

[00:11:05] and nuance and all sorts of things. So do you want to do that first? Either of you, both of you. We have had to hone it because it is very complicated and, you know, why we love that the vow exists or my book exists so I can refer

[00:11:16] people to the different things that happen along the way. So people understand it. But the elevator, you know, or the short version, which I've had to say a lot since we've gotten to Atlanta when people like, wait, what's your story? And where do you meet your husband?

[00:11:28] I go, well, here's the short version. My husband and I met in a personal and professional development program. We were in for 12 and 16 years respectively. Respectively. I was like about to say respectfully, respectively. And respectfully too. And also, yeah, both.

[00:11:42] And we were part of what we thought was a really beautiful community of like-minded people, very similar, I think, to probably the people in your community, on your show, people who want to be the best versions of themselves and to learn and to grow

[00:11:54] and work through their challenges and limitations. And there were wonderful things there, truly. Over the years, there were many challenges and red flags and things that didn't understand to be red flags. But later realized that I was overriding my gut instinct that something wasn't right.

[00:12:08] And those feelings were always overshadowed or in a good way. There was always enough good until there wasn't. And when we figured out what was actually going on behind closed doors in the inner circle of this organization, of which we were not part of,

[00:12:22] my husband and I and a number of other people decided to become whistleblowers. We originally went to law enforcement that didn't do anything. Then we went to the media. I was on the front page of The New York Times showing my brand.

[00:12:34] And that, again, is another complicated nuance part of the story. But here's the book. I was branded as a part of what was supposed to be an initiation ceremony into a secret society for women and thought I was getting a tattoo. It turned out to be a brand.

[00:12:47] But the key thing that woke me up is that I was lied to about the nature of the brand and we found out that it was the leaders initials in a sort of cryptic monogram that was one of the many things that came to a head

[00:12:58] at the end where we realized, you know, how bad this thing was. And that brand on the cover of The New York Times is what led to an investigation in the Eastern District of New York, which led to a trial,

[00:13:08] which led to the leader, Keith Rennery, being put into jail for 120 years. And five years probation. And that was all captured in a docu series called The Vow on HBO. And I also wrote a book about it, my memoir Scar, but she just held up. Thank you, Kathy.

[00:13:28] And then from the vow, people still wanted to know more. And because this was this happened in COVID, we birthed our podcast a little bit culty. Now we help people see the red flags so they don't join a cult or get

[00:13:41] out of a cult if they're in one or heal from from cultic abuse or abusive power dynamics if they've been in something like that. And now it's our lives. How's that? Yeah. Nippy, what if anything that she missed from that five minutes? I just have to back up.

[00:13:53] Is that what you tell everyone that asks you? No, no, I mean, I have a shorter, shorter version. Because I just say we met online. I'd say we met in a cult. We got out of a cult now we're recovering from the cult.

[00:14:06] You know, I'd say, you know, my story is similar. I'd say the difference and I'd say the most compelling thing to mention when you're talking about your own stories, every story's case by case and how you get in, I think is the important thing for people to remember.

[00:14:22] Nirmit, someone that's that you trust or known for a long time or someone you respect or admire, people tend to think, oh, you know, you were vulnerable and susceptible. Everyone's susceptible to your friends suggesting something. That was more my case and it was an old high school girlfriend

[00:14:36] and I still somewhat interested. And I said, what's the worst thing that could happen? You thought so. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's how benign it can happen. Right. And you know, long story short, I was involved for about two years left the organization

[00:14:51] but didn't leave under bad terms. I just didn't believe that it was going to achieve its mission. It didn't seem to have the infrastructure or the right people in place. It's gone for about three years, but I would take a training like, you know, once a year maybe.

[00:15:02] And I came back in 2006 after I'd done it. It was a totally different organization and had way more credible people and had people that were actually achieving things out in the world. And they were in line with what was going on.

[00:15:13] It tended to blend both worlds of creativity for acting and movies and that genre versus personal professional development. And it had grown to multiple countries in a short time. So I said, wow, it's actually happening. It's actually gaining some momentum.

[00:15:28] So it seemed to be kind of, quote, working in that sense. And then I was involved from there on out until, you know, Sarah's story hit and we were forced to pivot. Yeah. And that's, you know, like part of the reason that I love your story

[00:15:40] and I love how much you share. And I know a really important part of I think the vow and your podcast is to make sure people understand when we say how this happens that how no one is immune to this.

[00:15:50] And in part of that is that I think I shared with Sarah is that I have been a lifelong self-help devotee. And I say that with a very balanced perspective because I've been harmed by the industry and I've been helped by the industry.

[00:16:03] And I find that there's been a lot of things that I've almost gotten involved in. One of them being Scientology, when my chiropractor told me not to become a therapist, but to become a Scientologist and offered to pay for everything for me.

[00:16:13] And this was when I was young. I was like 25 years old. And so I lived in Chicago. I used to walk by the Lincoln on Lincoln Avenue. I lived right by it. I used to walk by it back and forth thinking, OK, I could just do this instead.

[00:16:23] And my whole point is, you guys, that's one of like 20 stories of how I could have gotten involved in something that went on more long term. You know, Todd's been with me through some of them where I've had to get pulled out.

[00:16:34] You know, and again, it's it's not comparing stories. It's just more about I so relate to both of you. And I think more people should understand how this is all of us. Thank you for that. And the thing I've said in multiple podcasts

[00:16:46] and I think is kind of my lane or my message or my soundbite, if you will. If you think you are the kind of person who won't fall for something like this, in a lot of ways, you're the most accepting. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:16:59] I think I think I was that guy. You know, I was like, you know, had that kind of cocky, flip that thing to it and that was my weak spot. Yeah. I was advertising my vulnerability in a lot of ways by thinking I couldn't.

[00:17:12] Especially because somebody like you, I think, you know, when we joined in the early mid 2000s, this is not the age of now where there's so much cult content and awareness out there. This is at a time when we thought of cults, it was white robes

[00:17:24] and drinking blood and, you know, biblical verses, speaking in tongues, you know, things that like are clearly culty, you know, and people don't suspect self-help to be. I mean, I do now. Right. I do now 100 percent and I'm very skeptical.

[00:17:40] But to your point earlier, Kathy, if we'd met, like if I'd heard your podcast when I was in next year, I would have emailed you and I would have invited you to a training because you would have been the perfect candidate, because you are the type of person

[00:17:52] that recognizes you're here and you want to be here. I'm using two hands like you want to, you know, there's a bridge of growth to grow on, which I still believe in. And we thought we had the best tools for that. Exactly. And Sarah, I would have gone.

[00:18:04] Yeah. And we would have been friends. Exactly. And you would have opened up a chapter in your hometown. That's exactly what I'm saying that you two are my friends is because I explained to Todd, I mean, not just it.

[00:18:14] First of all, just the experience and what you guys wanted and that you wanted to do good in the world and that you wanted to, you know, help people, all of those kind of things, which is kind of all of me.

[00:18:22] But also even your relationship, I mean, Nippy, when I hear you on the show, you're so similar to my husband, Sarah, all of the things like I, you know, all of the things that you say, the challenges you've had,

[00:18:31] the spiritual abuse that you've experienced that I have too, that we're also still trying to find this like place where I'm not giving all of it up. Some of it has been very helpful to me. And some of it is part of my DNA.

[00:18:41] It's not something I learned. It's something I know intuitively. And so it's like that balance of figuring out the help and the harm in trying to, you know, keep channeling that into the world. But I'm so much more skeptical.

[00:18:52] And Nippy, I wanted to ask you this, like I, Todd runs a men's group, an international men's group, and he does a wonderful job. But I've been really on his case over the last couple of years about jargon because I have a history with jargon.

[00:19:05] I think the jargon as you guys know, you know, Amanda Montel's book, all of that kind of stuff. And will you kind of explain what SOP was in nexium and what the goal was? You were a little more of an outsider with nexium.

[00:19:18] I don't know if that's the right word, but maybe not as much as it was targeted. So I can't say that I wouldn't have been susceptible if my if someone has crafted their whole objective to do something to me. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:29] So I think I was more left alone in a sense, because I didn't fit a profile. But I think it was because I was any less intelligent or anything. I didn't do it that I just wasn't targeted.

[00:19:39] We're targeted. And were you not targeting because you were a woman? I think I think you were targeted in a different way. I think they targeted. I was used in a different way. Probably we can only speculate. Yeah. Handsome actor. Football player. That's how she uses me.

[00:19:54] But it's true. Like if you go to a seminar and there's and there's like somebody like Nippy at the front with a suit on, you're like, oh, yeah. Here's an alpha male who's also kind of sensitive talking about his feelings. You know, that's how they use you.

[00:20:08] I think. Sure. Well, sure. It's so funny because Kathy and I had like a Zen parenting meeting and we never have Zen parenting meetings like two months ago. She's like, I'm not a fan of meetings. I'm like, I just do it.

[00:20:18] Just to talk about. Yeah, I don't like. Stay all the way around here. Really? That's no. I love meetings. That's what I'm saying. So we're on our front porch just talking, which is a meeting and she's like, let's get because it's out of 675 episodes.

[00:20:31] About 625 of them has just been Kathy and I. But she's like, let's get some really good guests. And then she came back. She's like, I got Sarah and Nippy. I'm like, great. Who are Sarah and Nippy again? And she talked about next year and all that.

[00:20:42] I'm like, is this the volleyball guy? Like that's literally how because I'm always the one like walking in and out, whether she's watching Going Clear or watching next year or any number of culty documentaries. And stop there. Let me say something to the audience listening.

[00:20:56] I am not watching these for the salacious details. Like this is not about the sex cult stuff. This is about I'm a therapist. Everything is human behavior to me. There's a self help. I'm putting this in air quotes, everybody component to it.

[00:21:09] Because I see how I got involved too. Like I'm getting like this therapeutic, you know, the intervention as I'm watching it because I'm like, I see how people do this, the belonging, the understanding. I have been these people. I am these people, all of them, MLMs, everything.

[00:21:24] I'm like, we are all these people. So I just want to say that to people listening because I think a lot of people watch cult shows and murder shows for salacious details, which is fine.

[00:21:32] But I have a great deal of respect for what people are willing to put out there. You're inspired by the people that get out. You said that a million times. Well, and you two are my favorite because.

[00:21:42] And I'd say the filmmakers did a good job of seeking to understand it as well, which I think is the journey you're following. The certain documentaries that don't only demonstrate that they want to understand it, they want to shame it and put it in the proper judgment box

[00:21:53] that it is, you know, one learns from that. You just fortify your belief that you wouldn't fall for something like that. But if you have a nuanced approach like the vow did, people can go, holy shit, that could have been me.

[00:22:03] And if you walk away from it from that number one, the filmmakers have done their job and I think our story has served someone else's life in a positive way. Sure. Exactly. Kathy, you did want me to address.

[00:22:14] Oh, yeah, I wanted you to address SOP because we're in and tell us, first of all, what SOP stands for, so everybody understands. But also, weren't you like a leader of SOP? Yeah. OK, so we explain what that is. OK, so I'll do SOP, then I'll do jargon.

[00:22:28] They kind of relate. So SOP was sold like this, Society of Protectors. And there's a video that Keith actually recorded himself on what his vision, quote, vision for SOP was, which I think is him leveraging other people's

[00:22:41] ideology for his own purpose under the guise that they're doing something good, but that's not really what he's doing. And it was sold as such. We live in a male dominated female influence world where a lot of the

[00:22:53] structures in place are built by men and tend to have an imbalance of the feminine energy. SOP is a place where men can come discuss their feelings, get more sensitive to how they might be abusing their power and usher in a more feminine society so it's more balanced.

[00:23:08] Right. And it leveraged men's desire to protect, to provide and those sorts of things. And it talked about the upsides and downsides of that. And so really it was a place we could talk about the masculine principles,

[00:23:21] how it's a tool and how it can be used for good and how it can be used for bad. And that was in contrast to what the women's curriculum was, which was the Ginesque curriculum, which is supposed to be all women, but it was founded by a man.

[00:23:34] That's a whole other thing. And it was a place where women can discuss the feminine principle unencumbered, untouched by men's definition of sound. Other than a man running it, but sounds noble, right? Right. Right. So you can see how what Yanni Lalich calls moral injury comes into place.

[00:23:52] You are unwittingly supporting something that had a clandestine agenda. And a lot of the stories I've read about this and seen subsequently have come from soldiers who've gone to other countries under the guys they're fighting for freedom, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:24:07] And they're doing things that don't necessarily represent that. And they have the awareness that they're actually accelerating someone else's agenda for oil or whatever. And that's called moral injury. And when I kind of did my work and homework on what I felt like

[00:24:19] happened, that was the one that resonated the most with me. Because I was aligned with someone who was like doing those behaviors. And I think subsequently I've learned that the men's group was just something for him to appease the men and make abuse normal.

[00:24:33] Can I add something to that? Yeah. All the curriculum had, you know, I talk about this in my book too, like what we thought it was and then what it actually was. Well, Kathy talks about it in the beginning when she introduces us.

[00:24:44] She's like, this place is doing good and it was doing bad. So we eventually, like just like the men got to take the GENESTS training, the women got to take the SOP training.

[00:24:53] And part of my, I liked it at the time to a degree, but I also feel like because we spent like six grand on an eight day training, if you were bought in, you had to like it because like if you didn't find something yet,

[00:25:05] you'd find something to like. So what I liked about it, as I said that loosely is that I was by the way paying to join a bootcamp. And I was going through an emotional and physical bootcamp with a bunch of guys

[00:25:17] and they were going to treat me how a little boy would be treated, not a little girl. And I was going through it and not being coddled. I wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom.

[00:25:26] I mean, I could go to the bathroom, but then I'd get teased or like called out in some way. I couldn't carry around my coffee and my green juice and my water and all my things and my blanket.

[00:25:35] And I had to just sit up straight and do the breakout groups like you wouldn't any normal personal development group. And while it was painful and I hated it and probably almost got a bladder infection, to be honest, because I don't want to get called out.

[00:25:47] And I wanted to be tough, I wanted to prove that I could like be a good soldier and do it right. What I got out of it was a lot of very good feedback about how I present

[00:25:56] as a woman in the world and how that may be limiting me in say a business meeting if I'm being too flirty or like wearing too much of a cleavage top or talking in tangents or giving too much backstory.

[00:26:07] Articulated. The idea was if a woman's using her assets to get something to be more sensitive to that. Yeah. And that was helpful. That's the noble kind of way abuse was presented. Yes. But then it was abusive when you didn't fall in line and people were like humiliated.

[00:26:24] Yeah, that's actually because I've watched the vow more than once and that's the episode that I don't watch more than once is I think. Yeah, it's a rough one for me. And Todd, that's the one I had you watch with me

[00:26:35] because I was like this is that fine line because even the way you talk about it, Sarah, so you guys walk such a good line of like there are always things to learn. These are such hard things to talk about for people

[00:26:45] because we're in such a binary culture of either good or bad or it's either you failed or you won. And there's this weird line of like we all want to learn things about ourselves, but the shame component in that episode. And I know it's more than that.

[00:26:59] That was edited and everything is so you're doing the opposite. So it's like this constant zigzag. Well, so it's presented in the context of after the man had gone through some of the women's curriculum is that because men are ushered in society and don't have places that nurture

[00:27:16] their emotions in the same way that women do. And these are broad strokes. These aren't like, you know, not every home's like that. Like I'm talking in terms of like. Stereotypes. You know, stereotypes. And that certainly was the case in my house with one

[00:27:28] with four boys and we were all kind of alphas in playing football, you know, you didn't bring your emotions to the dinner table. So the Genese curriculum for men was a place where they could bring their emotions and not have that kind of judgment.

[00:27:39] So it had the kind of feminine approach. So you trusted it. And then when you come to the men's curriculum, women will get more of an inductive experience of what it was like for men to grow up, including being humiliated.

[00:27:51] So this is this is how the curriculum is presented. So the women think they're going in really seeking to understand men and the origin of how men become the way they are. And they might get that. But in the process, they're going to be treated like little boys.

[00:28:05] And it was weird. You know, there's a handful of trains. It was weird to kind of figure out those boundaries, because these are also your friends that you're treating. Miss Edmondson, sit up straight, please. You know, stuff like that.

[00:28:16] But that is the context in which that sold and it doesn't sound bad. It actually sounded and felt like we were doing something positive. So we knew we were going to be humiliated, but that was part of the boot camp.

[00:28:27] Yeah, which I feel like wasn't explained in the house. It's also very clever. And I think that's what people need to understand. Some people go, oh, I would never, I would never really. What rules are you following in your life right now that five years ago,

[00:28:40] you wouldn't be following and you wouldn't be enforcing other people. It can happen quickly. So like I say, if you're sitting there hearing this and thinking, oh, that can never happen to me, you're a candidate. Absolutely. It's like small things.

[00:28:52] You guys like this isn't in comparison to that. But I remember I was part of a spiritual book club and, you know, we were all so lovey-dovey and we were talking about this wonderful book. And then the leader all of a sudden was like, OK,

[00:29:03] we're going to start to do this thing where you have to be on time. And if you're not, we're going to lock the door and you have to sit outside and wait. And it was right.

[00:29:09] Exactly. And it was done under the guise of this is our spiritual growth. And we already love each other. So we're doing this because we love each other. And I remember I have I have three daughters and they were young at the time.

[00:29:17] And I was late and she's like, you'll wait out here and you'll miss and you'll experience it. And I that's the thing is you go home and you feel like crap and you're like, OK, but you feel like crap. You think it's your fault.

[00:29:27] Right. You know, instead of I was just treated and humiliated for this, you think I was late. So again, and it's different. That's the thing is we all have to like listen to this and bring in our own

[00:29:38] experiences of when did we have you guys said at the beginning, the red flags? And how did they? Todd, you were going to bring up something about you heard on their show about the sixth sense thing that you really liked. The way I prepared for this interview,

[00:29:51] because I never know like, oh, yeah, I could read Sarah's book. But part of me, it's just pure laziness. So I didn't read Sarah's book. But the other part is I want to like look at this through

[00:30:00] the lens of a listener who may not know who Nexium is and no Keith Rene area. So I listened to the first two podcasts that you guys did, a little bit culty podcast. And then I listened to the Mike Render one because I got

[00:30:12] the total man crush on Mike Render. It's just awesome. We love Mike and we met him in July. Did you? He's advertised. Yes. Great. I just love that guy. I love that guy. And I love I actually have his bobble head in the kitchen.

[00:30:24] Yes. Like someone gave it to me as a joke because they know I won. Good. You got it. So but in I think the first one, you guys talked about the end of the movie,

[00:30:32] the sixth sense and spoiler alert at the end of the movie, Bruce Willis is dead the whole time. So if you rewatch the movie, all these dots start getting connected in a way that you never would have been able to do.

[00:30:43] And you guys use that illustration as an example of how you can look at what you participated in through a separate lens. And I don't know if you want to expound on that, but I thought it was something that helped me.

[00:30:54] Ironically, this is something that it's a metaphor that Keith gave. We use a lot of metaphors in next year. OK, all the time to explain things. And it was a metaphor that he gave us to have people understand that what the curriculum felt like.

[00:31:06] And I used it when I pitched it. I said, you know, our curriculum is inductive. You have these experiences where you go, oh, it's not just reading in a book and it's like more integrated because once you know X, Y and Z,

[00:31:17] you can't unlearn it like sixth sense. Once you know Bruce Willis is dead, you can't go back and watch it without that perspective. Again, that happened to us. Once you know Keith Reneary is a sociopath, you can't forget that

[00:31:29] and think about anything that happened without through that, you know, not looking at it through that lens like, oh, there's Vanguard Week where we have 10 days of celebrations. Like, can't know it's 10 days for him to be idolized

[00:31:39] and have access to a fresh supply of women from around the world. Yeah, I edited there. No, it's fine. Well done. I didn't want to come in. I have another way of saying that. Yes, I know. That's what I was.

[00:31:53] I know, I caught it. I'm doing well for your audience. Well, and for anybody who hasn't seen it, Keith Reneary had a lot of sexual relationships without consent and things like that. Right? So not everybody knows that.

[00:32:04] Yes, well, the thing is what was tricky is he did get consent, but it was under a false premise. Thank you. And he did it, not through with me, but what I've heard from other women is that it would start with, you know, inviting them to a project

[00:32:15] or to be a part of a new team within the company. And then he'd start mentoring the person one-on-one and recognize and point out that they had relationship issues and then offer to help with those relationship issues, which also included being in a relationship with him.

[00:32:28] And then eventually the woman would find out that it was not just with her, but he was doing this with multiple women, but they had to keep that as a secret. And that's how he was able to do this on, you know,

[00:32:37] on the DL with so many of us like Nippy and I and a lot of the leadership didn't know that was happening. Well, didn't he say he was celibate, you guys? Oh, that's what we were told. Yeah. Yeah, that's what we were told by multiple people.

[00:32:47] The first question I asked, one of the first questions I asked is the person that enrolled me was, is he sleeping with these people? Is he having any of that stuff going on? One of the first things I asked, they said no. He's celibate.

[00:33:02] This is the golden age of cult recovery. The more we speak up and share our stories, the more we realize we are not alone. Your voice and your story can empower others. This is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator

[00:33:17] of the hashtag I Got Out movement. Learn more at IGotOut.org. Meals bring people together, but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge. You can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry Food Drive. All proceeds go toward local food banks and families.

[00:33:42] Now through January 31st, you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue Feeding the Hungry Shelf Tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries. Together, we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's.

[00:33:58] The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family, but everything wasn't as it seemed. I just had a 12 year old boy still appeared asking for help. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs. Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie,

[00:34:18] the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives. Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. I don't know how many people, you know, Scientology, I feel like is the first example I got about a cult

[00:34:38] other than the Charlie Manson stuff and all that stuff. So I don't know how many people are going to be in proximity with somebody who like whatever the next next EM is or the next Scientology is.

[00:34:48] I mean, I know it's big, but I also think when you talk about the self-help industry, the personal growth industry which we consider ourselves a part of, I think our listeners would benefit from, obviously we can talk about the extreme examples

[00:35:00] like Nexian, but I would love for either of you to help me and the rest of the listeners understand what to watch out for. Because it's funny, the four of us have a lot of similarities. We're married, we do a podcast together

[00:35:12] and as far as I can tell from knowing YouTube for a short while is we want to empower people to trust themselves. Don't do it because this is the way we do it, listen to us and if you don't like what we have to say

[00:35:24] then do the opposite, I don't care. What are some of the things that, and whether it's multi-level marketing or neuro-logistics programming which I don't completely understand, just anything that you guys can share to help our listeners be on the lookout for certain things? Sure.

[00:35:39] Well, I think explaining the Byte model Yeah. A little bit. I'll send your audience to go do more homework. So I'll abbreviate what I think are great like cheat sheet if you will, what to look out for. Guy named Steven Hassan has something called the Byte model

[00:35:54] and the Byte is B-I-T-E, behavior, information, thoughts and emotions. And anything that seeks to gain control or inform or impress itself upon you in the realm of your behavior, i.e. rules like you're late, you can't come out like you experienced, right?

[00:36:13] Information, anything that tries to control the information that you have, keep the celibate, right? Thoughts. Don't watch the news. Thoughts and here's where I think the jargon aspect, the question you asked earlier, we can come back into thoughts. I can expand on that in a second.

[00:36:25] Thoughts, anything that seeks to inform your thoughts and control that and then your emotions, shaming you, obligating you, dangling the carrot in front of you, certain things that the kind of personality types will. And there's other things following the leader and stuff like that.

[00:36:39] But those four elements and those four things are red flags or they're not. Like do your homework? Like is this rule here for a principle and you'll start to, people start to figure it out that like in life certain things come on.

[00:36:51] But those four things I think are good components. Yes sir. Which is why we kind of try to break that down with a little bit culty because something can be a little bit culty like CrossFit can do one of those things. They can use emotions and shame you

[00:37:04] for not coming to class. Are they a full blown cult? No. Is every CrossFit do that? No. And does every CrossFit do that? No. Which is one of the things that Steven has and one of the main criteria that makes a cult or not a cult.

[00:37:16] If you leave this group and you're not ostracized and people still say hi to you in the street like, oh, we miss you at book club or whatever that's a main way to determine whether something's a cult or not. But- Or a little bit culty. Yeah.

[00:37:29] It's like for example with the CrossFit thing if you are being shamed, it may not be a full blown cult but you might not want to do CrossFit. It just gives you a tool to go like do I want to be shamed and sit on the porch

[00:37:39] or being late? Are they a cult? Are they branding people? Probably not. But I just, I don't want to do it. And that's okay. You don't have to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm personally not going to do it.

[00:37:48] I was invited to a yoga class. I'm not going to say what type of yoga class by a friend, good friend of mine and she knows my story and she brought me there. But it was more of a spiritual one. And she's like, this is totally not culty.

[00:37:58] It's not culty at all. But like I just didn't want to spend an hour and a half doing mantras and chants and wearing a certain type of outfit because I didn't want to do it. And I said, I prefer hot power yoga.

[00:38:08] She's like, oh, that's your ego attached and I go, maybe I don't like it. And I'm not going to ever do anything that I don't want to do ever again. And I think that's key. But very specifically about personal development, what are the red flags?

[00:38:21] Like I said, if you can't leave without being shamed, ostracized or shunned, it's a major problem. If you feel pressured into signing up and there's like a 24 hour discount or like you have to do it within a timeframe it's a major red flag.

[00:38:34] And if there's a leader who is, everyone is idolizing and you can't question. Like if you ask a question about the leader or something that's being said and you get punished or shamed or called out in any way, that's a major red flag. And again, all these things

[00:38:49] are underneath the bite model as behaviors but those are specific actual red flags to note in a personal development type of thing. I think another thing that's can be there's a lot of plausible deniability around certain behaviors that can occur in a seminar setting or even the podcast

[00:39:06] or like some community setting is that you can always say, oh, that's just, you know, things can be easily dismissed. It can minimize abuse. Yeah, to minimize abuse, I think ultimately if you have a feeling you don't like it or you feel like there's some

[00:39:21] like gut instinct that something's not right then just I would just trust that. Yeah, don't move past that. Yeah, don't move past it. And that's the thing that's so dangerous in personal development. They could say that's just your resistance. You know, like if you- It gets weaponized.

[00:39:35] Yeah, if you feel- Well, there needs to be different guardians at the gates in this community because dark forces have infiltrated most hierarchies in history at some point. They then don't break if they're principled enough. This domain has got some dark forces cleverly weave its way in

[00:39:51] and it's done it through a lot of like the tactics maybe that we've seen before in history but not necessarily in our lives because the hierarchies are normally have a guardian at the gate and the abuses are pretty obvious when they happen. These are different. These are subtle.

[00:40:05] These are nuanced. The guardians of the gate are using the kind of spiritual world with words and stuff like that to wrangle themselves into people's psyches. I feel like I've been talking about this very quietly starting 10 years ago because I was very uncomfortable because everybody, you know

[00:40:21] just like we're talking about everybody but Todd and I live in this world and I write in this world and I've been, you know, I'm a yoga teacher and I have a lot of yoga, you know stuff that stories to Sarah where people were just telling me

[00:40:31] I wasn't working hard enough or I wasn't and it turns out the man that I was learning from who the accreditation I was trying to receive was also abusing his students and which do you mind saying which or you don't wanna say that? Anisara. Okay, yeah.

[00:40:43] So it's your friend, right? Yes, yes. And so I was going through that whole process and of accreditation and a lot of money and a lot of time and I never was in that circle but that was what I was going through. That was the path.

[00:40:55] Can I tell you a quick sidebar? Please. I was on a yoga retreat in Costa Rica with a community that I don't is just sort of a it's not like Kundalini or Anisara or Vikram, it's just like it does a bunch of different things.

[00:41:06] So it's like a, what do you call that? Like a reform. Yeah. Non-secular yoga. Unitarian, that's what we say in religions. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we were there when there was a big group from Juva Mukti in the same place and an Anisara thing

[00:41:20] as the John Friend thing was coming to light about, I don't know if you know that snip because we haven't done a deep dive in the culture but he's same kind of thing like sexual, like a lot of women financial financial like a bunch of abuse.

[00:41:32] By the way, Costa Rica is a red flag for me now. Oh yeah. So we're in Costa Rica but what is it that this was coming to light while we were there and we were still in next to the time trying to recruit the women

[00:41:42] from this other group thinking, well, we have an ethical leader and we actually will have a great copy. He was like a guru off. He was like a guru but we didn't know that our guru was doing the exact same thing. He just hadn't been caught yet

[00:41:55] but listen, we've done a couple of yoga episodes. Every yoga branch as far as I can tell has some sexual abusive being at the top. Think about it. If it's a group, like if you're one of these guys and you're a con man and your objective is women

[00:42:14] yoga is the perfect community for you to go in and go, oh my God. Even if you're not a con man even like a sounds like this. Even if like you wanna meet women yoga is the perfect community. So this guy's like what?

[00:42:26] But like there's another guy that teased, right? Who many of what there's like podcast about him now we've been on there as a guest and I know the person who knows him and she's like he wasn't like that at the beginning.

[00:42:39] So I think it just like even if it wasn't his plan. No, no, no. He was like that the whole time. Well maybe. She just didn't see him like that. Maybe, we don't know. But I'm saying it's as people, but wait, we could disagree.

[00:42:50] No, no, no, no, no. We could disagree. He didn't just become impulsive. No, no, what I'm saying is is people like Keith Reneary who've been plotting it up from the beginning. Keith planned to do nexium so that he could be put on a pedestal.

[00:43:02] He followed, he went to city yoga, which is now like a. Did his homework. He did his homework of how to become a guru. Whereas I think about Keith's really wanted to be a yoga teacher and then enjoyed having like women throw himself at him

[00:43:15] and then it got to his head. Like I can see the difference. There is a difference in my mind. I'm not saying one's worse or better but just saying it's not the same path. That's all. Don't you think that as podcasts like yours come out more and more

[00:43:27] that the gurus are gonna get smarter? Like the whole, the term guru is such a red flag. Such a red flag, sure. They're gonna get really clever to not use that word. Oh yeah. Keith even said I'm not a guru. He was like, this whole full humble friend.

[00:43:41] Well ultimately that has to be your play, right? Yeah. You're gonna have to amp up what you think the guru is and the guru would say this. Well it's funny. I have, so my first coaching certification was through Tony Robbins

[00:43:52] and I did a Tony Robbins weekend and I. We walked on fire together. Walked on fire and it was helpful but he had a documentary that I loved and it's called I'm not your guru but now I just see him through a different lens than I once did

[00:44:04] and doesn't mean that he's an awful human being. Totally agree. But I just see it a little bit differently now and maybe that's age, maybe that's being informed. He also produced this. Yeah the thing that sticks out with Tony Robbins there's a lack of congruency versus persona

[00:44:19] and his emotional world to me. Does that make sense? It doesn't feel entirely authentic. Do your impression. Which one? I'm not gonna hear Tony. Maybe he's really good at impressions. I don't know if you've got that far. But which one do you remember?

[00:44:30] When you're like, did your dad hear him out? Oh, when he had someone up there and they weren't all in on the process but now you're in front of 5,000 people pressure. Right? So like that. So affecting your emotions, right? You bought in, right?

[00:44:44] So behavior, like you have a buy in and goes, so tell me, are you fighting with your mom or your dad? And she's like, well not, no, your mom or your dad. Like really put the bolts to her. And she was like, my dad, he's like, huh?

[00:44:59] And she starts crying. I'm like, all right. Didn't give her much wiggle room. Didn't really elicit information from her to see like, maybe it was- And maybe that's her ha-ha that she's- Well, that's what she paid for. You talk about pressure. Like I remember in that documentary

[00:45:15] the woman is having a hard time in a relationship and he's like, call her right now. Yes, yes, that was enough. 5,000 people call her, call your partner right now and break up with him in front of all these people. And I'm just like-

[00:45:28] That was probably one of the most controversial parts of that documentary. Yeah. Imagine your loved one goes off to Tony Robbins to come back better and you get dumped in front of 5,000 people on the phone. Right. Thanks Tony. That's another red flag. Like when we were in XTM,

[00:45:46] we would say things like that we were the gourmet version, Tony Robbins landmark. That was the McDonald's of personal development. At that point we were hooked on a con though. Yeah. Oh no, no. And what I'm saying when we were in it, when we were true believers,

[00:45:58] that's how we described it. To a degree I still think it is like fast food because it's cheap and cheerful. Not that cheap actually. They can be really expensive. But you can go to Tony Robbins and sit in the back and not get your stuff worked. Right?

[00:46:10] If you were in XTM there was like 15 to 40 people max in a room with almost as many coaches. It was almost one to one. You were getting, whatever you came to work on, you'd get it worked. It would be very difficult. When you get it looked at.

[00:46:22] You get at least get it looked at. You couldn't just sit on the sidelines. Which is another thing that I feel is a red flag is that it's a bit of a money grab. Oh, my biggest red flag,

[00:46:30] Yanya Lalich would be so mad if I didn't say this. A lot of the problems with many of these personal development programs is that people aren't trained. They're not accredited. And even still like in what? Like what did Tony Robbins do other than build this empire

[00:46:43] and then give you a certificate that like, and I'm not saying, I'm sure you're a great coach and from what I've heard you say, you've got great things to say. But like, what does a Tony Robbins certificate mean in the world? Like where, what's his background?

[00:46:54] I don't know. I mean, maybe he does have a background. A lot of these people, and I shouldn't say that because I actually have not researched what he actually did. But most of these people are not therapists and they're not counselors

[00:47:03] and they're doing really, really deep emotional stuff. Like Nippy and I were like digging around in people's psyches. And we're, I'm not a trained therapist. I happened to be the child of one. So I have a lot of tools in my tool belt

[00:47:14] but I don't have any degree. That's dangerous when people are doing personal development work with non-professionals, I think. Well, if you have bad intent, it's even worse. And if you have bad intent, it's even worse, yes. And that's kind of where is like,

[00:47:27] I, and again, it's why this is all so interesting to me. I'm like in Disney World right now talking about this. Like this is like everything that's important to me. And I mean that not like, and it's all fun. It's so hard. It's like these lines

[00:47:39] and that when Todd started, when he became a coach and he was starting to work with men about really big things and really big issues would come up, you know, suicidality and these kinds of things. And again, Nippy, what I was asking about the jargon,

[00:47:50] there's a lot of language that they were using and it would stress me out so bad. I'm like, Todd, I've been a therapist 20 years and this is hard. This is a very slow meticulous process. And just like you said, Sarah, you don't dig into people's minds

[00:48:02] because you can really, and again personally, I'm like going on a personal train. I worked with body workers my whole life and that I've had to back away from too because I'm like someone else is telling me what my body is saying. And again, I'm all for,

[00:48:15] I think Rakey's great. This is why it's so hard to talk about. It's not that it's not a good thing. It's that I have had great experiences and ones that are bad. And so it's like you have to kind of figure out, you have to be so careful

[00:48:28] with people's minds and bodies because you can really shift the way that they perceive like the teal swan that you guys focused on and I had Todd watch that documentary with me. When you start to possibly implant memories or bring up something that we don't know for sure

[00:48:44] is that really what happened to this person? But then their whole life becomes based on this belief. That's so dangerous. It's really dangerous. Again, like you just said with Tony Robbins, like I don't think he's got bad intent. Like I don't think he's a bad guy.

[00:48:57] He's more enterprising than he is anything else. And there's something wrong with being enterprising is just if it's at the expense of someone's well-being then that's a problem. You're right. It's very complicated and we don't wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater

[00:49:12] and say there's no good coaching and there's no like you want it. Like we all want a community. We wanna be a part of something. We wanna- Kathy, I think the lines are being drawn. Yes. We have to have messy conversations to have it

[00:49:24] which is why the jargon question is relevant to me. Hey there listener. Hope you're enjoying this episode and that you're remembering to hydrate, stretch and unclench your jaws. Sometimes listening to conversations about heavy topics can really make you tighten up, you know?

[00:49:41] And remember a little bit culty loves you. Also come hang out with us on Patreon after you finish this episode. It's fun over there. Fun is good. And now here's a brief message from our sponsors. Meals bring people together but for many families providing their next meal

[00:49:58] can be a challenge. You can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry Food Drive. All proceeds go toward local food banks and families. Now through January 31st, you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue Feeding the Hungry shelf tags

[00:50:15] where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries. Together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are your self-care non-negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga.

[00:50:31] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. I mean that's my personal and everyone's dream, isn't it? Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables. Like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature. Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it.

[00:50:46] Nature is a non-negotiable. Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded. Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks. I try to not miss it

[00:50:56] and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it. It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind

[00:51:05] so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need. Like, I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people. You know what I mean? Thanks therapy. Thanks for helping me see that.

[00:51:14] And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help or try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge.

[00:51:28] Look, even when we know what makes us happy, it's hard to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever. Never skip therapy day with better help. Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today

[00:51:41] to get 10% off your first month. That's better help H-E-L-P dot com slash culty. I'll say something and then I'll ask you what problems or challenges you're having but the thing that I was particularly sensitive to when I got out for whatever reason was boundaries

[00:51:57] and the manipulation of language. And the reason the language is important and this is kind of a barometer that I use when it is language and words or tools. And if there's a group of people that is dictating what you can and can't say,

[00:52:12] i.e. what words and tools you can use to express yourself, super fucking dangerous. You're controlling the thoughts. So if I'm living in your tool belt to certain things you can think and talk about, you're not gonna talk about it if you're not thinking it.

[00:52:25] You see a lot in politics right now it's not a political statement. It's just be very sensitive to the force behind that's telling you what language and what tools you can use to converse with because the best conversations, the ones that force people to think and evolve more

[00:52:40] are normally messy because people are arguing over how best to uphold the principle in the world and the best thing come at it. It took, I don't know how many nine weeks in the dead of winter for people to come up with a constitution

[00:52:52] because you're talking about words, you're laying a foundation and the principles are expressed through words. So unless you're taking your jargon and telling people to go, I want them to think in this certain way and I wanna limit their speech.

[00:53:07] I don't think you have much to work about except it might sound a little corny or it might sound like people don't like it or something like that. The problems you'll have will be superficial but unless someone says, ah he's doing this. Yeah so it's interesting.

[00:53:19] So I am the executive director of an international men's organization and just a few things come to me as I hear you talking Nipi. Just some examples of and I've been hypersensitive to jargon since Kathy has brought it to me

[00:53:31] but I still think it seeps in without even knowing. So we do a check-in, right? I don't think is a check-in a jargony term and then when you're done with your check-in you say that I'm in which means I'm done talking it's a nice person to talk like

[00:53:45] and then like this does seem a little jargony to me like sometimes I have heard the term sacred silence or a sacred circle and what I mean is like high regard to a circle of men trying to be the best version of themselves

[00:53:58] and then the last one is we're coming up with these suggestions on our best ideas on how men can be the best version of themselves living consciously, living emotionally, living with candor, living with intention and one of the ways that we wanted to describe it

[00:54:13] as it was my idea is like the man box. So the man box is a term I've been using for I don't know 10 years and it describes the idea in the man box your values predicate on how much money you have, how many girls you have sex with

[00:54:25] how many trophies are in your trophy case and my partner in the organization said don't use man box dude that's jargony and I'm like but it's such a it's two syllables those words are a tool to explain something very quickly

[00:54:37] that I don't have to explain in two paragraphs. They both have their fingers go ahead. This is my main question so excuse me. Okay you go ahead and then I'll comment. I'll make a distinction. It sounds like I wouldn't even call it conflict

[00:54:51] maybe the discussion is more about you're setting up structures, practices and rules and a guideline for people to follow as opposed to limiting people's speech and being a cult. Does that make sense? It's like I imagine he'll come he has a problem with the name

[00:55:06] what it sounds like because he doesn't it's not like you're abusing your power and these are things people squabble over it's like titles and just so you know our term that we're using right now is men living suggestions we didn't want to call them men living

[00:55:17] foundational values we don't want to call them principles well and Todd even the thing that I was I started putting my thumb down when people say we know they check in and they say I'm in and I was always on his case

[00:55:27] about why do they have to say that and he's like they don't have to and I'm like okay as long as everybody knows they don't have to say I'm in because there's something about that that feels like to belong. And because of that since then I've said

[00:55:39] you could say I'm done talking like you could say whatever you want and I wanted to throw the conch back in the middle of the room. So you're establishing structure now? Yeah. See all those things I think are fine actually I really do.

[00:55:50] I don't think the things themselves are a problem and I think what you could do to keep it in check for yourself I'm not worried about you like you're clearly a good dude but like for the sake of yourself and also like if this thing gets taken over

[00:56:03] by somebody else who maybe not you you just want to maybe once a month or once a year or whatever be like okay these are the things that we're doing is anyone uncomfortable with any of them? Yeah. And just do a check in on that

[00:56:17] and say you know because you can say you don't have to do this because Keith would say that all the time you don't have to do your goals you don't have to go up the straight path but there was a subtle pressure to do it

[00:56:27] if you didn't do X, Y and Z you couldn't X, Y and Z that might be a place where someone goes you know what I don't like saying I'm in because it reminds me of Boy Scouts and having to like in this time

[00:56:35] that blah blah blah and I felt uncomfortable it's just more room for discussion and sharing and the checks and balances at the top are the key thing and going back to your other question about like what are the red flags and person development.

[00:56:47] There's a leader there's no accountability for that question. No questioning, there's no governing body no board that's checking in sometimes there is a board but they're also made up of like people that are being paid or like they're all having sex together or whatever the thing is

[00:57:02] you know like in the case of next year and the executive board was like at different stages his harem and then a couple of men who were who like didn't know what was going on anyway does that make sense? Like if you can have people that are

[00:57:13] checking in and going is any of this uncomfortable for people? And even when you introduce it you can say I'm in, you can say I'm done you can hold past the conch whatever that is a feather or a shell and you just pass it on

[00:57:27] you don't have to speak and you can demonstrate that yourself too like I don't wanna be stuck to one word and have it be a thing because one of the problematic things with the words and Amanda talks about this well in her book, Kultush

[00:57:37] is that it creates an us and them the people in the group have all this terminology like what's your man box or whatever the man box itself sounds like a good idea and you want people to have that self-awareness and as long as you're clear on your intentions

[00:57:52] is I'm doing this so the men have the self-awareness of the things in their man box and how it limits them and all that stuff but you don't want them walking around going like outside at parties like, oh yeah, look at that guy

[00:58:01] and his like Porsche is totally in his man box and the people who don't know what that is feel left out of that conversation that's when it gets to be a problem. Well, and that's kind of what I've found with language you guys and you probably have to

[00:58:13] in all these cycles you've gone through is that language really this whole like when you're working with jargon and cause I've been in a lot of jargon based communities and you feel really special and you feel cool and you feel like you have a lot of information

[00:58:25] and that people don't understand and you get it and they don't and you see how things go in cycles and how when really you can say something just very matter of fact without all the big words like the people who are using more big words

[00:58:36] there's a, you feel like there's an insecurity around what they're offering cause they've got different language and then I always say to Todd like let's move through the cycle where we're just using everyday language to explain something that might be it might be mystical

[00:58:48] it might be a mystery it might be something very grand but we can just talk about it like human beings and this is again really tricky too cause I think people listening to the show probably think I have some jargon because there's things I say

[00:59:00] that it becomes so normalized. Our household has jargon. Yes, exactly. Jargon in and of itself isn't bad and it also can save you so much time if every time you go so what are the things that restrict you in your life that are value-

[00:59:13] like, you know, man box it's just save time. So like word salad I love when you guys talk about word salad Yeah, like word salad is jargon-y and we even made like merch out of our jargon and somebody might say we're being enterprising

[00:59:26] and I'm gonna say yeah, we are mugs Yeah, we got them too. Yeah, again making money isn't bad, right? Like having a jargon isn't bad it's for what and for who's gain and what's the goal and who's behind it and what are your true intentions

[00:59:41] and that's the tricky part. The messy conversations and you know, because we wanna be thoughtful about your time because we know you got you know, we're coming to if you can believe it an hour already I know like can I can you guys go back every week

[00:59:52] is that, you know you guys are parents you have two sons, correct? And I know a lot of people I've listened to you've been interviewed and I've listened to your podcast and a lot of people like what are you gonna tell the boys about nexium

[01:00:03] I'm less can like thoughtful about that or curious about that as I am about what are like, you know you're raising your sons and what are the things that you've learned from this experience where you're like we have to make sure the boys understand A, B and C

[01:00:17] or these are the things that are most important to us so they are not manipulated by a system or that they continue to stay curious and think again about things. I think for me it's get sensitive to the forces that are telling you

[01:00:31] what to do, how to think and all those things and as I'm super super sensitive to that schools, coaches everywhere I go I'm always kind of watching and getting a sense of it I think that's gonna translate to our kids. That's the wisdom we've gotten from our story

[01:00:47] and I think ultimately they're gonna have that wisdom as a result of that. I agree we have an interview coming up with a woman named Amy Seltzman who grew up in the sports world and she might be actually good guest for you guys to have on

[01:00:58] because she wrote a book called How to Spot a Spider and is using kids words to describe like a sociopath in the format of a coach. So there's very specific things like if they start out with a love bombing and this person whether it's a coach

[01:01:14] or an older friend or a scouts leader whoever is taking someone under their wing that in and of itself isn't bad but they get us to be aware if that then flips to feeling criticized or put under the microscope in some way

[01:01:28] with that person they're trying to get back into their good graces that's a pattern that we need to teach kids to look out for the grooming period the love bombing and then the criticizing and then trying to win that person's affection

[01:01:40] or attention this happens a lot in sports but ultimately I think just in life like nevermind cults teaching our kids that if they don't wanna do something and they're saying like it's not the right thing to do whether it's like all the kids are getting into a car

[01:01:52] and one of them has been drinking and they're like it's fine I just ran the block and like no big deal and they're like no my parents taught me not to drink and drive or get into a car that they feel like strong enough in themselves

[01:02:02] so that's like peer pressure we all know about peer pressure but that's ultimately what happens in these group settings like in cults and especially with the next hand like I didn't wanna wear a sash, that's weird I don't wanna do that but everyone else is wearing a sash

[01:02:14] and they're wearing a sash and like okay maybe it's not that big of a deal that was one of my weaknesses for sure like I tried smoking for the same reason when I was 14 cause everyone else is doing it it's such a typical thing

[01:02:26] important distinction too is like someone you trust maybe telling you to do it but you have to consider they were conned and that was just somebody to consider right, consider they were conned it's so true and these things start really early

[01:02:39] with parenting because some of them are done again without mal intent like you have a three year old who has separation anxiety and they don't wanna go in the party and you say just do what all the other kids are doing

[01:02:49] go ahead in the party see all these kids are fine so you be fine but then you're curious at 13 why your kid is getting into cars with other people without considering it's because there's been this subtle messaging really early about don't trust yourself don't trust yourself

[01:03:02] just go ahead, everybody else is doing it go ahead and again that is never our intent as parents is to tell them to not listen to themselves but we're frustrated in the moment I had my two oldest kids who are now 19 and 17

[01:03:13] totally never wanted me to leave their parties they didn't want me to leave their any of their lessons they're like stay here they didn't want me to leave their dentist appointment I one time had to sit on the ground and like hold their hand while they were getting

[01:03:23] but just listening to them and not disregarding and looking around the room but just listening their feelings are so important and like that's something my parents definitely taught me is to not like, like if something I wanna make kids are upset and be like well just do this

[01:03:40] you'll be fine tomorrow like no I see it I see that you're really frustrated right now and I get it and I remember being that frustrated when my blah blah blah and acknowledging and making their feelings valid like that's really key

[01:03:52] I think that your mission statement about the kids I don't know their exact quality The best predictor of a child's well-being is a parent's self understanding Right so when I heard that that was one of the main reasons I think we said yes

[01:04:03] is because our journey of understanding what happened to us in this situation has been our wisdom and that's what you know the podcast is all about and I think that if we have that and we can translate that to our kids in different ways

[01:04:14] then they're gonna be okay and they'll learn more about it at different stages like Troy knows that Keith is in jail he was a bad person and we helped put him there and that it was really hard it was a really hard thing to do

[01:04:25] but we stood up against that and that was the right thing to do and he's pretty doesn't know the details but he's proud of us Yeah of course of course and so am I like I and again I started saying this before we started recording

[01:04:37] and I'll have an intro at the beginning too but you guys have been such an influence on me and you're so I'm not gonna cry but I could I cry like Sarah does I know we cry on the I listen to you

[01:04:47] I'm like I cry on the show too but I had a really really hard time with there was a lot of things going but even like the 2016 election and that's when I started listening to Mike and Leah's podcast you know their Scientology podcast

[01:05:00] and Sarah you came on their podcast and you said Nipi and I are starting our own podcast called A Little Bit Cultie which everybody needs to listen to because it is about cults but it's about so much more I really encourage everybody to listen

[01:05:12] and it's the first podcast I listen to every week it's on Mondays and I can't tell you how much I have I talk about you guys all the time it's like my girls know who you are and they know what impact you've had on me

[01:05:25] and why I keep saying this is because you guys are so strong there's been a lot of things that I've had to stand up for and I have but it's been hard and I felt alone and I'm like these two can do this yeah there's an inspiration there

[01:05:37] and ongoing like I'm like if they can do this I can you know and so so you're like part of my brain you know you too and Leah and Mike I just am so grateful so just thank you for well thank you being those people for your support

[01:05:51] oh that means a lot yeah makes it all worth it oh it does it's the best especially to know that the teenagers have a sense of this because you know I feel like if I could have circumvented some things in my teenage life

[01:06:02] and dropped in some knowledge back then it would be a very different trajectory me too and that's why I share the you know these stories with my girls I've had abusive relationships I've been in a yoga community that's difficult I've had a body worker that was not

[01:06:14] if things were not okay I've had so but I'm also trying to teach them to live in the mystery and to appreciate spirituality and to trust their intuition these are very interesting parenting things and I would and again I'm not trying to put you guys on the spot

[01:06:27] but I'd love to have you back sometime to talk more about parenting because these are I just feel like you two or two of the people out there in the world that are dealing with some of the same things Todd and I are in a different you know

[01:06:38] different like you know expertise areas like you guys have so much information over here that I don't have and I just I think parents need to understand because like you said Nipi this is leaking into things that we used to think it could not leak into

[01:06:52] and we need to have our eyes open and our hearts open but also have some critical thinking online well I have a million more questions but Nipi thank you so much I think that you have been such and like I said such an inspiration

[01:07:05] in so many ways too and I just think about you so similarly that I do my husband you know and I balance each other out I have a feeling that you two balance each other out quite well oh yes and I heard that in your the enter

[01:07:17] and there is something that you had a question about that I have to tell you OG also means original gangster I know Sarah I finished I went up stairs I go I'm gonna get so much crap because it actually is original gangster

[01:07:28] and I was saying like old guard like talk about being like which it probably does too actually that's not bad like old guard old guard and original gangster well and Katya is somebody who takes pride in pop culture in knowing certain things

[01:07:40] and the fact that she missed on that one it bothers her I get embarrassed Todd I'm sure you got feedback on this feedback on this it's not gonna get any easier Katya there's no way you could blow dry Katya's hair oh yeah

[01:07:51] I'm gonna catch in hell for that one yeah and you guys are probably right it's just why would you try that you missed the conversation Nippy also Nippy does not notice when I've blow dried my hair or when I just let it blow naturally I don't

[01:08:04] or if I've dyed my hair or cut my hair I do I totally noticed that last week my favorite is when I've done nothing and Todd's like oh you got a haircut I'm like no no no my problem is I think women look sexiest

[01:08:14] when they have a baseball hat on with a ponytail coming out of a yoga class like yeah that's fair that's what she wrote too that's what you guys should be wearing the cocktail party exactly I would be like yes I would go to the cocktail party yes

[01:08:27] I know I know and that's the thing again balance right that's the thing I love most about him is my husband is very it's everything is very just you know natural and we should be in our emotions we should be in who we are

[01:08:39] but then when I do enjoy getting dressed up occasionally notice I will say I'll say say something to your woman about you know you did Friday night I said it Friday night I said I did my hair and I said something like we're gonna be late

[01:08:51] or something stupid well you guys I do love how you give each other feedback and that you're you both want to grow I mean Nippy and I wouldn't be together if we couldn't do that that's why that's why we that's why people come together

[01:09:03] to evolve with each other so yes exactly and that's why your story is especially and again everybody another two things if you haven't seen the vow on HBO please go watch the vow you will then feel like you are best friends with Sarah and Nippy

[01:09:15] and understand why I feel this way I do also want to mention that people can find us over on our Instagram a little bit culty and also there's the hashtag I got out movement which we talk about a lot in our podcast people are resonating

[01:09:26] and they want to share their their story that they can do that through that the hashtag that's a really powerful movement well let me close just by saying one of my friends gave me this tip and I like he's a person that was one of my teachers

[01:09:38] and I'm like dude I look up to you he's like I don't like that he's like if there's something that you think is attractive to me just say that I inspire you but looking up to is a hierarchy so I will say Sarah and Nippy

[01:09:50] you both inspire me to be the best version of myself and thank you so so much and who knows maybe we can have you back if you guys are so willing for sure we love it so that was it since this episode went out on their channel

[01:10:16] we found out that they have received a lot of great feedback from people who were not obsessed with the cult of verse like you all are and the feedback was like a lot of people were realizing that there were cult dynamics in their life

[01:10:29] that they weren't aware of and it's been really helpful so yeah I hit a serious tone there for a minute yeah I dropped an F bomb they're like it's okay carry on we hope that you enjoyed this as much as we enjoyed doing the interview

[01:10:40] and then listening to it again so we could repackage it here for our feed Happy New Year we so appreciate all of your support see you next week with a very very exciting guest you're not gonna believe who it is he talks a little bit like this

[01:10:55] no it doesn't take that it's a terrible accent it's Mike Rhinder Mike Rhinder back on the show if you want to do your homework read his book a billion years it's so good yeah it is good I flew through it

[01:11:07] you haven't seen me fly through books like that no I listened to an audible run it's like 14 hour lesson sprint sprint go get the book hop do your homework till next week leap bye sinking down to the depths of the ocean

[01:11:23] I'm hanging on to the weight of my love if I let go of it all I could leave but I know hope you liked this episode let's keep the conversation going and come hang out with us on Patreon where we keep the tape rolling each week special episodes

[01:11:45] just for Patreon subscribers and where we get deep into the weeds of unpacking every episode of The Val and if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet sweet swag or official ALBC podcast merch or a list of our most recommended cult recovery resources

[01:11:59] visit our website at alilibitculti.com and for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page-turning memoir it's called Scarred true story of how I escaped Nexium the cult that bound my life it's available on Amazon Audible narrated by my wife and at most bookstores

[01:12:14] Alilibit Culti is a talkhouse podcast and a Trace 120 production we're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames with writing, research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy we're edited, mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of Citizens of Sound

[01:12:31] and our amazing theme song Cultivated is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin thank you for listening