The NXIVM Extravaganza | Ft. Mark Vicente, India Oxenberg, Susan Done, and Karen Unterreiner

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:27] The views and opinions expressed by A Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast.

[00:00:36] Any of the fucking mazeball content provided by our guest bloggers, sponsors, or authors are of their opinion and are not attended to malign any religion, group club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:47] We're not doctors, not psychologists. We're certainly not the AP that's associated press for those of you listening at home. We're two non-experts who found ourselves making a little podcast that people happen to like. Okay? Yeah. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here.

[00:01:11] And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.

[00:01:21] We've been there and back again. A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult, and then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge. And the whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow, now in its second season.

[00:01:36] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life. Look at us, a couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night.

[00:01:47] We interview experts and advocates in things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait, this does not count toward date night bait. We got to schedule that that's separate. So it's two days we got to hang out?

[00:01:58] We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium. Still on that journey and we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:06] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level market.

[00:02:18] This stuff really is everywhere. The Cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com

[00:02:36] Here we are again with another episode of the ALBC. Hello there. How was your summer? What's the haps? What's the haps mean? It's like what's happening. When did they come out with that one? I think it's so old school. It's like new school again. What's the haps?

[00:03:06] It's like feeling groovy. I'm older than you, so if I haven't heard it, then you want it. Nipi is turning 50 this year. It's coming year. You're turning 50. What are we going to do? Open to suggestions culty listeners. How do we celebrate the honey voiced Nipi Ames Anthony Nipper?

[00:03:21] We're going to be East Coast. My dad turns 80 and Troy turns 10. Three generations. And Ace turns five. This is actually our out of office greeting talking to you because we're away from the studio right now investigating some kick-ass episodes for our new season.

[00:03:36] We've got some good ones coming, Booter. But we didn't want to leave you hanging. By the way, do you know why Nipi calls me Booter? We're not going to get into that. We're going to let you all guess.

[00:03:45] Booter is my nickname. Not going to tell you why yet. Just a little mystery here on the podcast. We went through the archives to make you a veritable dairy queen blizzard of culty goodness from our fan favorites.

[00:03:56] We will be back soon with all new episodes, but until then you can also find us each week on Patreon where we're serving up some fresh episodes and new content on the regular. We're going to start putting our outtakes on there too.

[00:04:09] Oh, there's some good outtakes and special treats like an a little bit culty, specially curated pencil set in addition to the usual merch, which is a signed copy of my books and lip balm.

[00:04:19] When you join the inner circle, don't be afraid. There's no bait and switch. What you see is what you get. You get pencils. And just to be clear, the next 30 people who joined the inner circle will get all the usual merch and aforementioned pencil set.

[00:04:35] We'll post some pictures of that on the Instagram. See if that entices you to join us for the inner circle. Tangle in already. Okay. So today's episode is, well, I hate this term, but in our wheelhouse.

[00:04:49] If you're a listener of this particular show, you're already familiar with NXIVM nexium. But in today's episode we are taking a closer look at the cult featured in the HBO series, The Vow starring, and I wouldn't say starring. We were featured. Featured feel better. Us. Yours truly.

[00:05:08] Joining us are four people who understand the inner workings of NXIVM better than almost anyone and probably better than us. Yep. First up is Mark Facente. He's the Vow's Stone Cold Silver Fox filmmaker turned whistleblower, internationally renowned sweetheart.

[00:05:22] He's the guy who originally recruited me and also the guy who helped get me out and raised hell to bring it all down. He's also the lucky husband of the one and only Bonnie Peace. AKA Bonfire.

[00:05:32] Next is India Oxenberg who went through hell and back in NXIVM's darkest chapter. DOS, AKA DOS from forced starvation and sleep deprivation to multiple forms of mental and sexual abuse to a devastating years long separation from her family.

[00:05:46] We are goddamn happy she got out and that she's thriving now. After India we've got Susan Dones, the one woman wrecking crew who served as her own legal representation in a series of court battles after she left the organization.

[00:05:58] Susan was way ahead of the curve on calling bullshit on Keith Reneary and his flying monkeys. She's also paid dearly for it. And finally there's Karen Ontriner who at only 18 years old became romantically involved with Keith Reneary.

[00:06:10] Over the next 40 years she'd go on to become a top level NXIVM trainer, a key figure in the Executive Success Programs Leadership Committee and an overseer of administration, AKA bookkeeping and IT, which is all to say there's much tea to spill, very much tea.

[00:06:24] Also it hasn't been recorded yet but Karen did recently agree to come back and join us either on Patreon or as a special episode where they now style over here on the main feed. More on that as we confirm it.

[00:06:38] So if you're sick of hearing us talk about NXIVM which you very well might be, skip. Skip it. There's more episodes. This is a NXIVM heavy episode for you NXIVM nerds out there. And everyone else let's rock it. Rock and roll. So we're doing really well.

[00:07:01] I will tell you that it was hell and then especially the end of last year was really rough for us and just, you know, going off social media because it just got so cruel. It was so unkind. I'm so sorry that you went through that Mark.

[00:07:13] You and Bonnie especially don't deserve that and you know Nipi and I have gone to the nth degree as best we can to have her back and like protect you because you guys were really the warriors.

[00:07:24] And like you said we all had different roles but to be in the public eye and be shamed for doing the right thing. That's the thing that I struggled with. That's really awful. It chaps my ass too.

[00:07:35] But I did understand eventually like, you know, there's a double-edged sword with really expressing oneself and being emotional which is the one degree people go like, oh, I can relate to that. But then also you become a symbol of stuff that's unresolved in them.

[00:07:46] A lot of people shatter shit and stuff that they're upset at comes out. You know, and I felt like to some degree I became this figurehead of people to get really angry at because I got deluded by something. I got fooled by something.

[00:07:57] Like, you know, somehow that I was so stupid and why didn't I see it? Because I think what goes on for them is they're like they were in situations like that and they haven't found peace with it. We all become targets of different things.

[00:08:06] Also Mark, I mean there's some diagnostics that I felt like if you understood to maybe you do it might put it in perspective. And one of the things the internet has people erroneously convinced of is that it's a majority of people's opinion.

[00:08:18] I mean normally the kind of person that takes the time to write something negative is, you know, I call Twitter the bathroom wall of social media.

[00:08:25] Right? It's just everyone has access to it and then they just go dump on it the same people that would write jokes on a bathroom wall.

[00:08:32] It's like for a good time call and all these people have access to it in a lot of ways their voices are being elevated to people who actually have a critical thought process. Also more people are going to be motivated to write negative things and positive things.

[00:08:43] Nobody hops on social media. I'm going to write something positive today. It's wonderful when it does happen though. And I do get a lot of those things too.

[00:08:49] So times to that because someone is so inspired and they're the kind of person who is going to go I'm going to take the time to uphold this person and write inconvenience to myself to write something positive. Yes.

[00:09:03] Normally when someone is writing something negative it's because they have an itch they can't scratch and it's coming from a toxic place. Someone who actually takes the time to inconvenience themselves use their psychology to write something positive.

[00:09:15] A lot of times too, you know, it's like a double like because it's a positive thing and more people are motivated to write negative shit. Two things I want to say partly for you but also partly for our listeners.

[00:09:26] There's a lot of people here, survivors and also motivated to speak out and share the story because of what we've done with the vow which is also like a tremendous service. So remember that, you know.

[00:09:37] We've been foot soldiers and been on the other especially with the ex Mormon community.

[00:09:41] I think I've told you this right or maybe not people saying I left the Mormon church because of the vow which they were just watching because it was like, oh, tiger came about like another documentary to watch. Right. And then they're like, holy shit.

[00:09:53] I'm in a high demand group and they got out because of it like one to 10 sometimes more than that emails Instagram messages a day for people sharing stuff like that.

[00:10:02] So anyway, people are motivated to share their stories and then of course they're getting, you know, vitriolic hatred back.

[00:10:09] And one of my psychologists said to me every time you read something negative if you're going to which is I'd recommend you don't but if you do then train yourself to go read at least 10 positive things for which they're absolutely that was definitely the ratio.

[00:10:21] Absolutely. Look at the comments right on our Instagram post about you there's 129 I just checked there was one salty post there was one at 120 and I gave that person a little piece of my mind as I said because I like boundaries.

[00:10:34] You know what they can do with that salty post right? Yeah, yeah, I know what they can do with the salty ass. I don't take things the same way anymore. And I'm like, you know what fuck you.

[00:10:43] My favorite is you don't even know who you're talking to you like you've turned me into some symbol in your head. Yeah, exactly bullshit. That's unresolved. The other way.

[00:10:50] Yeah, the positive I appreciate but I don't get drunk on that same way I don't get upset about I just get wasted. I just get like I do roll around.

[00:10:58] But you know, but you know, Nippy, you and I had this discussion once this lives in me now like it didn't so much the end of last year but now it lives in me like if somebody is going to say some shit to me.

[00:11:07] Where were you motherfuckers during the war? Were you in the trenches with us? No, you weren't. Right. So shut the fuck up. Yeah. Once you've done a battle like that. Then you can comment.

[00:11:17] I have respect for you and now you can say something to me and if you're like a warrior, I might listen. But if you're not a warrior, successful people don't punch down. There's don't. Yeah.

[00:11:27] But here's the other thing I have to say my dear friend Caroline who I know you know, Mark shared with me because I think I had told her I'd read something that that like just really upset me was one comment.

[00:11:36] I don't remember what it was and she said something about like if you see a bear in the woods because it's a potential death threat, your fight or flight goes up right.

[00:11:43] And you focus in on that and it's more heightened because of the fight or flight and you think you're in danger. Right. So it's the same thing with a negative comment. It sticks like you've heard about this right?

[00:11:54] Like you can read so many positive things but the negative comment you go into fight or flight. So it's more heightened and you narrow in on it like the bear is coming to get me. So it feels more impactful than all the positive.

[00:12:07] So on a like a neurological level. Yeah. Yes. No, it's so true. I want to just go back to because now I mean it's slightly different, not slightly very different place now. Like I feel such pride about what we all did. Yes.

[00:12:20] Like such incredible pride because we live through a war together that I mean it was it was a hell of a battle. Yeah.

[00:12:29] And based on how these things usually go we should have lost and we should and we should all be completely and utterly bankrupt and you know destroyed. It was a blowout. That's usually how these things go. Yeah.

[00:12:40] And you know what usually happens with people like us is somehow law enforcement moves on us. Not the other way around. Well, that's also historically what happened with care. Yeah.

[00:12:49] So like I am so proud of what we did all of us and I'm also so grateful to whatever the universe is and however it works and whether it's divine or I don't know but I am so grateful. Yeah.

[00:13:00] That the forces that I don't understand seem to push it in a certain direction and I'm just like it's just a lot of wow. Like wow that happened. Yeah.

[00:13:09] And also that we're free now the thing I keep it keeps thinking about is like thank God I'm not in that trap. And no right. God thank and I said that for all of us but it was a horrible, horrible trap.

[00:13:21] I didn't realize until later I was so fucking depressed. Yeah. I'd lost hope about some of the things. We were operating our lives with proverbial ball and chain shackles and to experience life without him now. Totally. It's just it feels lighter viscerally. So much better.

[00:13:38] Mark do you remember the moment you were able to clear your calendar of all the ongoing like a proctor call and commerce call and the coaching call and executive call of goals. It's crazy. All of our calendars were insane.

[00:13:49] Do you still get a coach email invite from Allison Max email? No, I try to disconnect it. It's voodoo. It keeps popping back up. I have a like a proctor call on Mondays that I can't delete from my calendar. It's like crossed off but it's like in gray.

[00:14:04] It's terrible. And I see it. I don't know who started it. I should show that on Instagram one day. I will. This is the golden age of cult recovery. The more we speak up and share our stories, the more we realize we are not alone.

[00:14:18] Your voice and your story can empower others. This is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I got out movement. Learn more at I got out.org. This episode is sponsored by better help. What are your self care non negotiables?

[00:14:42] Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga. Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. I mean, that's my personal and everyone's dream. Isn't it? Well, I definitely have some non negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm

[00:14:54] spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature. Hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it. Nature is a non negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit

[00:15:07] like my nature walks. I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it.

[00:15:14] It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no

[00:15:24] to people, you know what I mean? Thanks therapy. Thanks for helping me see that. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule.

[00:15:35] Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Look, even when we know what makes us happy, it's hard to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non negotiables

[00:15:48] like therapy are more important than ever. Never skip therapy day with better help. Visit better help dot com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help H E L P dot com slash culty. The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family.

[00:16:04] But everything wasn't as it seemed. I just had a 12 year old boy still appeared asking for help. He's emaciated. He's got tape around his legs. Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives.

[00:16:26] Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. Even when I have had and continue to have challenging days, it's not for nothing. It actually has a reason. And when I was reading his memorandum, I'm like, that it was really, really gnarly. And I know you know too, Sarah.

[00:16:48] And the fact that you were able to see it when you did and speak about it even before anyone else was speaking about it is huge, huge. I don't think people understand like the gravity of that.

[00:17:00] It makes me want to cry because it is so hard to go against programming like that. Additionally with collateral in place that will damage the people that you love most. And if you're an empathetic person, like that is worse than chains

[00:17:15] because it's you know, taking the things that you love the most and tarnishing them. So I have enormous amount of respect for what you did and what everybody did who left before me and after because everyone had to do it, take enormous risks.

[00:17:31] Yeah. Well and we all did in different ways and for the responsibility we had with the roles we had in the organization. But you know there was a moment when we knew we had to get out

[00:17:39] but we didn't know we were going to go public or try to take it down or whatever. And one of the reasons we did is we put together very quickly through everyone's different intel that you know there were a lot of slaves.

[00:17:50] And for sure we knew that you were under Alice. Like as soon as we pieced together what it was, we're like okay for sure India is under Allison. You know and we put it all together. And Nipi and I talked about it with everyone who's leaving.

[00:18:00] We can't leave them there. We have to free them. And I just want to say like it feels like there was a moment where people were saying things like this person took down next to him that person took down next to him.

[00:18:10] I feel particularly uncomfortable when people say that about me because it just I was the face of it at the beginning. It was a whole team. Yeah. It was a team but it was a team of like multiple layers. And like you said everyone had a specific role

[00:18:25] and had to participate in the way that they did in order to effectively change it. So I feel like even for me my role was I stayed in really long compared to a lot of other people but I also got a shit ton of information

[00:18:40] from being on the inside that was actually really helpful to the FBI when I was working with them for nine months because I saw it crumbling at the very end and seeing what everyone was doing and all of the crimes that they were committing at the tail end

[00:18:54] to try and cover things up. I thought we're kind of normal because I had normalized a lot of that behavior. So by the time I'm out and ready to talk to the FBI I'm saying things kind of like haphazardly and they're like what?

[00:19:08] Yeah, you provided proof about things that I only had heard. When I first went to them I was like this is what I think is going on. I mean, I give them my computer, I give them my phone, I said take whatever you need.

[00:19:18] Here's specific text messages I think that are helpful but I didn't have a lot of proof yet. But when they investigated they found the proof. I knew a lot of that stuff because I was there and for some reason they called me the vault

[00:19:30] because everyone wanted to tell me their secrets like Nikki Klein and Allison and even some things Keith told me that were unusual. I guess people just thought I was dumb and I was just going to take it in one ear and leave it out the other

[00:19:43] but I was just making people feel comfortable so they would share with me. And some of those things I didn't want to remember and some of those things I did and those were things that I ended up sharing with the FBI and it did support everything

[00:19:56] that everyone who had already come out had said. So it was like everybody needed each other and that's why I also feel uncomfortable with that topic of like oh there's, you know the Val camp and the Sadoos camp. I'm like who the fuck cares?

[00:20:08] I'm so glad you said that. Everyone was there for the same goal. Image wars. We are talking about Keith Reneary here the fucking predator Keith Reneary. The reason why we're all doing this is not for our own self, you know to rebrand ourselves or whatever

[00:20:25] it's because we had an obligation to do this in order for our own healing and also to share the truth because you can't not like once you know you can't pretend that you don't know and I wanted to do that.

[00:20:38] I wanted to just like run away to the mountains and change my name and not have to deal with any of this shit and then I realized if I don't deal with this this is going to... Yeah that's why most people actually

[00:20:48] probably know this from your self education but most people join another group because they call it hop. They don't heal and they just join another one so I'm glad you did that work. Yeah and I'm still doing it and I know you are too

[00:21:00] and I think it takes a, like I said a lot of discipline but I have always wanted to stay focused on like what the real goal was and the goal is to expose Keith Ramieri for people to understand coercion and to make this conversation about

[00:21:16] cult and sexual abuse more mainstream so that less people feel afraid to talk about it. Turn your experience into content. Exactly and that is what I feel like I've been able to do and I want to move through it and out towards the other side

[00:21:30] to be able to do more of what I am passionate about but it is a process and so like sometimes people will be like I'm still talking about nexium we're not still just sitting around talking about nexium. Like none of us really

[00:21:42] just want to sit around and talk about nexium we're doing this for a purpose and the purpose is to move on and move forward and get clarity. And not just like when I hear people on the other side going oh they're you know just doing it

[00:21:53] for the book deal and I'm like are you fucking kidding me? Do you know stressful? Are you really stressful? And it's not like you're rolling and down with writing a book like the literary world is really archaic it is not My favorite line is

[00:22:07] and I got this from Jess our producer just waiting for that whistleblower money to come rolling in just waiting for it Yeah no it doesn't look like that No I want to read something and Nipi's going to make fun of me but I wrote this in August 30th

[00:22:20] of 2017 That's where we laughed right 2017 right babe? So I used to journal so I journaled I had a lot of dreams about everyone I left behind and including you at India and I wrote this about you when oh god I'm going to cry when you were still in

[00:22:34] just August 30th Jess had the most beautiful dream about India not sure where I was but we were outside getting dinner with friends and I saw her coming towards us on a field her hair down flowered dress and boots ethereal and casual like a free people print ad

[00:22:47] she looked so full and healthy I almost didn't recognize her as she passed me I knew we weren't allowed to talk but I needed to make contact so I reached out my hand and she took it reluctantly but as soon as we were touching I pulled her clothes

[00:22:59] and we embraced it was so I have no words surreal her body was hard stiff like a mannequin hardened with pain but she softened in my arms and we were both crying so deeply we couldn't let go and I remember thinking am I wearing earplugs

[00:23:12] because I couldn't hear anything except a high pitched tone and time stood still and all I could do was feel the love and hurt flow between us and the intensity of the emotion and the physical contact I can't read my own writing the physical contact

[00:23:25] from the past 16 months it must have been the year after it pulled me from slumber and back to reality the tether was so strong I begged to go back to go back to Dreamland to take me back I had so many questions for her so much to say

[00:23:36] I wasn't done now I'm writing from my living room they're watching Transformers India is in Malibu with her mother she is safe we are out but we're not yet healed so that was I guess I knew you were out but we hadn't talked yet

[00:23:47] and I just love to see you right now because you just look so healthy and so back to you and it makes me really happy thank you I feel really really lucky yes we're all lucky yeah we're all really lucky we're all lucky

[00:24:01] yeah so how it went down yeah so was I watching Transformers? yes because I don't remember that Troy was watching Transformers that's a very beautiful and accurate symbol yeah I think so too it's so weird to try to explain to people what it feels like

[00:24:21] to be living a double life that you can't really reconcile because you can't be honest about your experience and that's really how I felt in the last couple years specifically in DOS and I did feel very fractured when I was in ESP as a coach as well

[00:24:37] like one foot in, one foot out and really feeling lost but it was more so in DOS because of all the secrecy and then all of the compounding collateral and whatnot to the point where it's like you almost have to convince yourself that the collateral doesn't exist

[00:24:53] so that you can function you can't think about it at the same time and do your life so that was one of the things that took so long to admit to myself that I was really afraid of the collateral I was curious if that happened to you

[00:25:07] it's like feeling like like your emotions were catching up with what you're starting to understand about what had happened oh he means like it was it was in conjunction yeah since being out you would have a realization about what had happened or like you would kind of

[00:25:22] understand the reality versus what you were taught to think and then your emotions would come later and you would be like either crying or having a meltdown and you're like oh my god this now makes sense because like I had to have them both happen

[00:25:34] I couldn't just intellectualize it I had to like feel it again well I think because we were so caught at least for me I felt so cut off from my feelings in general me too right actually one of my big kind of ahas

[00:25:46] I don't know if I've talked about it here I'm sure it where I did but like Nippy and I knew we were out this is early days like weeks after and Nippy made a comment like you know I just want to hike and like do normal things

[00:25:56] with my family like what a relief we don't have to go to all these intensive kind of thing and I said I know you know and I was just like I was like I'm so happy and he goes like yeah see now you're happy

[00:26:05] and he made it kind of in a jokie way like you know you're happy because your worlds are aligned like it's a control strategy like you're just getting what you want and I go no actually Nippy that's something that makes me happy and that's okay

[00:26:16] oh you just throw me on the bus no no no I'm not throwing you under the bus I was talking about at that moment when we realized that we'd actually been taught that feeling happy wasn't okay because feeling happy right just meant that your quote worlds were aligned

[00:26:28] which means you controlled things insofar as that you got what you wanted and that's not good because it means it's covering up a deficiency like how fucked is that it's so fucked up hey there hope you're enjoying the episode quick reminder to follow us on Instagram

[00:26:48] you can also share your favorite episodes with friends who may or may not be in a cult and also reach out to us to let us know who you would love to hear as a guest and now a word from our sponsors this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp

[00:27:02] what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time

[00:27:18] as I can outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks

[00:27:32] I try to not miss it and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority I get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind

[00:27:42] so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that

[00:27:51] and if you're thinking of starting therapy give BetterHelp a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge look

[00:28:05] even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy day with BetterHelp visit betterhelp.com slash culti today

[00:28:18] to get 10% off your first month betterhelp h-e-l-p.com slash culti Meals bring people together but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families

[00:28:37] now through January 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's

[00:28:55] I just was good at enrolling people in what I believed was you know a good training program there were little red flags that came along the way you know and I was good at just going like oh you know well that's explainable that's explainable that's explainable that's explainable

[00:29:10] and at the time there were little things that you know the sashes were kind of a turn off to me but I had taken martial arts right I had been in the military and stuff like that so it was kind of like oh you know okay

[00:29:21] and it's a quirk you know and you bow to the dojo when you walk into the dojo and you call the sensei sensei when you're with him you know but you know if you went to like a potluck at karate you know you didn't call them

[00:29:34] sensei you called them bill you know that kind of thing right then I started finding out things because Nancy Salisman had taken me under her wing you know she's the president next to him and then she started to tell me little things and I'd be like what what

[00:29:52] you know Keith Rdary blew 68 million dollars in the commodity market of the like what's he doing borrowing money from the profits in the first place they're students you know and like 68 million dollars that's that's a lot of friggin money wait wait wait so she confided in you

[00:30:12] that he had done this yeah and how did she justify that she blamed it on their dad of course there's always somebody to blame when did she start doing that like how long had you been in before she felt I mean I guess what we're figuring out is

[00:30:30] she started sharing some of the crimes with you the first thing I noticed is Keith was amorous with certain women that kind of creeped me out you know I noticed it right away and I'd say is Keith sleeping with so and so and she'd say

[00:30:44] well we don't talk about that I'd be like really? yeah when I joined I was specifically told that he was celibate and he was renunciate he didn't need anything because he was so evolved he didn't need any items he didn't need sex cause it was too satiative

[00:30:59] he was his celibate monk I don't know who the hell he told you that but I was never told that and so like I would say in matter of fact when I first went and we would go to the forums and people would say do you date

[00:31:11] and he said well of course I date you know and then he would do the sex talk you know like a sex this and he'd boundary test people on sex oh like the sweatpants thing well you know remember he said something about like if you would dry hump

[00:31:25] in sweatpants is that penetration do you remember that yeah like ours yeah is this sex is that sex I remember he did it Nancy's parents were in the room and Edgar Boone's parents were in the room and I'm thinking like oh my god

[00:31:41] oh could you ask those questions with these parents in the room and just to interrupt for a second so our listeners know Keith talked about things like sex in a forum like people would ask him you know questions about things like this and that's sort of

[00:31:56] I think how he got away with it he wasn't overtly saying some of the things that we've seen in the documentaries since it wasn't so overt if they take those sound bites it looks obvious but what he was up to it's a similar thing to I think

[00:32:10] and I was going to come to this later but I'll say it now to that video that happened at the end of your time there jump in the timeline for a second where you confronted him and he said something about that he had people killed for his beliefs

[00:32:21] right now we saw that at that time that you left and how that was explained was no he's not saying he's going to kill people he's saying that people have died because of his beliefs right and that had happened in Mexico and things like that like that

[00:32:38] which is a noble humanitarian like Gandhi that deaths had occurred not that he was threatening to kill you but if you understand how he liked to implant things and it was subtle then absolutely it's a threat right that's my take on that now for those who are wondering

[00:32:52] well and how it was explained to me in my first deposition with Robert Crockett their attorney was that he had convinced the family not to pay the ransom and then the kidnapers let the people go and then they came back and murdered part of the family

[00:33:09] and so I thought well that's plausible and then I went home and researched it and then the murders actually happened months after Keith Reneary said that to us in our meetings with him oh wow and then I wrote a report on the Saratoga and decline about that

[00:33:25] because he would have had to been psychic in order to predict that when he said you know I've had people killed for my beliefs right you know and of course none of you guys at the time were reading the Saratoga and decline blog and so now

[00:33:39] what he did was he actually lied to the entire community about that and so that was his mode of operation but by the time I was opposed he had time to have gotten information on the murders in Mexico and stuff like that and so he just plugged in

[00:33:55] things that made sense and that's what they always did but you know getting back to the sex thing is one of the things that I do is I'm good at observing people and so I observed you know in my very first intensive him being very amorous

[00:34:09] with Esther Chappone who was at that Detroit training with me I didn't know her before then but I got to know her at that Detroit training and then she went to the first 16-day training with me and within months she was divorcing her husband and moving from

[00:34:22] certainly in Alaska to Albany, New York with her four kids and I'm thinking like what for and then I find out months later that she had moved there to be with Keith and then found out that he was not monogamous as she had been told by Keith

[00:34:38] and then she broke up with him and there was this big to do in Albany against Esther you know she's confided in me that he called her you know a selfish bitch because she didn't want to have a non-monogamous relationship with him you know kind of thing

[00:34:53] and then This explains a few things for me Yeah and then you know he's sleeping with Barbara Boucher he's sleeping with Barbara Jesky and they're like having these little cat fights with each other in the common areas of the nexium center you know and then Evian Navarro

[00:35:07] comes on scene and then pretty soon they're having huge meltdowns and it's like whenever they find out that he's not monogamous with them you know which are you know a few months later he's having major meltdowns one of the things I found out early on is they

[00:35:22] tried to develop collateral over you and for me it was like trying to get me to not pay my taxes and Barbara Jesky came after me Nancy Salisman came after me you know this whole pressure to not pay my taxes I constantly refused to not pay my taxes

[00:35:38] and I continue to pay my taxes but it was constant to not pay my taxes and it was all based on the fact that taxes were unethical and I kept saying well I don't care if they're unethical you know I'm not going to put myself in a position

[00:35:51] to one get arrested or two have these big fines and the IRS come after me I'm going to continue to pay my taxes but the one thing that became a collateral over me was the debt that I got into by setting up a center that was never

[00:36:06] in the black I mean my center was never in the black I constantly had to pay for my center out of my field trainer commissions my proctor commissions that kind of thing but I never could get out of debt because they were constantly always piling

[00:36:21] on these other trainings that you had to go to you know I think it's what a lot of people don't understand being a center owner like the system itself wasn't designed to be successful like you only got 10% of the like that's ridiculous like you know our rent

[00:36:38] to run the trainings I think at the end was about $7,000 a month just a just rent for having a space right and do you know how many ATHO students you need to have to generate $7,000 let alone something to live off of so there's definitely

[00:36:51] I think that's a missing nugget for people's understanding of the brilliant business model that Keith Ranieri the smartest man in the world created I can't remember if it was at Claire's sentencing or Keith's sentencing the judge actually said it was a Ponzi scheme

[00:37:06] and it was a Ponzi scheme because there was no real money to be made except for corporate nexium they're the ones that made the money you know everybody else lost money and that's one of the things that people don't understand is that that's why when I left

[00:37:23] I had to file for bankruptcy and that's why nexium that's where they came in and sued me was in my bankruptcy court you know and then they filed charge twice they filed charges against me in Mexico I mean I could never step in Mexico ever again

[00:37:36] because I don't know if those charges still loom over my head let's see if we can find that out for all of us who got the Mexico charges because that's I'd like to go back one day this podcast is brought to you by citizens of sound

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[00:38:26] or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it

[00:38:41] nature is a non-negotiable not enough time the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it and I know I'm just

[00:38:53] gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority I get so much out of it it helps me put my anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need

[00:39:02] and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give BetterHelp a try it's entirely online

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[00:39:44] but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry Food Drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through January 31st you can purchase an icon in-store or online

[00:40:01] or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's I was thinking with the vow I'm actually the prequel to the vow Yes

[00:40:18] Yeah, I met what are we calling it these days Alan We call him Alan I know it just gives me chills every time I say the full name Before college even started during freshman orientation we both went to RPI My father had passed a week before

[00:40:32] I was already very shy and insecure from a lot of childhood not good parenting trauma whatever you want to call it and then my father had just died so he noticed me when I arrived I had an entourage moving me in I was dressed like a hippie

[00:40:47] even though I was very withdrawn he saw the contradiction in my personality and at RPI there was nine men to every woman not a lot of us women there I was on the only floor of all freshman girls my dorm and he made the rounds down the dorm

[00:41:03] he went and visited everybody and when he stopped at my room we talked for a very long time he was very mysterious he asked me if I liked older men because he was actually a year and a half younger than me

[00:41:13] he would do lots of weird things like that and then just slowly, slowly dropped that he was Eastern Coast Judo champ which now we're not sure and different things about him he could play piano and all this stuff he just slowly dropped all that stuff in

[00:41:25] but he was better looking back then for those of you who say how can you go to the gym yeah he was better looking back then he was built he was muscular? yes very muscular yeah very very very big broad shoulders small waist

[00:41:37] he had been doing a lot of athletics back then but he and the feathered back 70s hair you know so I was just like I can't believe this guy's talking to me you know I was just overwhelmed by the attention which you know is now we know

[00:41:53] is called love bombing we were inseparable pretty much through college I eventually found out I was not the only one in his life but I don't know how he found time because we were together so much but he was fooling around with a lot of people

[00:42:05] I broke up with him senior year because he slept with my best friend over the summer but then he pulled me back I got pulled back in and he said that while I was separated from him I had a little fling and that was supposed to be

[00:42:18] my ethical breach because you know he wanted us to never have been with anybody else my ethical breach really was going back he used the term ethical breach even then no it was used later but he did say he made it like really really bad

[00:42:31] I left him because he screwed my best friend and he's been screwed he was screwing half the campus but I had a one night stand and that made me awful I mean that's the standard Alan thing you know that's what he does

[00:42:43] I thought I was still dating him for the following years after college but he was obviously he was living with other people and everything else you know we all were led to believe we were the important one a special one in his life he just lied

[00:42:55] later he blamed me for it he told me I told him to lie to him I'm not sure that's true because I'm sure that's what you wanted yeah after college I moved to Connecticut for a little while became an actuary and I found a job back up here

[00:43:08] and we moved in together up here eventually got what's now known as Flintlock we both own that house that condo though I paid for the whole thing yeah that's the usual of course he technically owns half of it but I paid for everything pretty much

[00:43:22] but I was working as an actuary up here and he started consumers byline and I jumped ship from actual work at some point and came on full-time at consumers byline which kind of grew up in my living room as did Nexium too later right

[00:43:36] he needed someone to do the work yeah I would get out of bed leave him in bed go into the office and I knew damn well as soon as I did he told me he wasn't screwing Pam that Pam was sneaking back into my room and replacing me

[00:43:48] well I'm working at the office they're having their time together back Jack back for a second you're living with Keith when did Pam slip into the picture yeah people are asking about Pam Keith wanted to start a business called Life Learning Institute it was not about ethics

[00:44:02] but it was kind of the same format as Nexium ended up being with classes more like a knowledge network I know that's what it's called around here just where you could go take adult classes he needed funding so he was on a ski trip with his dad

[00:44:15] and they were on a gondola with a obviously wealthy man and his daughter Pam so Keith was going for money some people were asking does he looking for women with money he definitely was at that point he was looking for funding for that business

[00:44:29] her dad eventually did help us get the consumers byline started he gave us a loan to get that going but he was looking for money and that's when he met Pam and brought her in how was that for you of course he claimed he wasn't screwing her

[00:44:41] as usual he was at first she was just very unusual to me because she was from a very wealthy family she was very ditzy but she was a lot of fun yeah, yeah and so we became friends pretty much I didn't know

[00:44:55] and they would keep their relationship hidden she was kind of angry about that I think we were friends for most of the time how predatory did he feel at the time did it feel predatory or in hindsight does it in hindsight yes I can see all the gaslighting

[00:45:08] and the manipulation that was going on it's weird looking back because it's very easy to look back and say oh that was a red flag and I may not even seen it as a red flag at the time

[00:45:17] but he's able to get you to write it off so easily some people were asking about what happens when you confront him one of the hardest times for me was Pam was living in our house with us and I found a contraceptive advice of hers on the bathtub

[00:45:32] she had left it there and so I confronted him and you would think this is like I mean this is data smoking gun yeah literally I challenged him on it and the scene ended with me on his foot begging him not to leave

[00:45:48] you know that's how things went in between that he would give me some bullshit story that it was for something else which is obviously even then I knew it was obviously crap he'll give you some lie that you can hold on to

[00:46:01] and then he pulls the thing you saw him do with Camilla in the end with Lauren in the trial and he would say oh you're hurting my heart I can't do this with you you're killing me he would say if you ask any more questions

[00:46:14] if you want me to answer I can answer but I'll never be able to talk to you again basically threats his health was used a lot in those situations so he's lying which is different than saying oh I am being hurt you know

[00:46:28] I don't think he knows he's not being hurt it's just a tactic he used with every single one of us consistently so that would be preying on your empathy and our need to be a good person he set you up to think you're not a good person

[00:46:40] and then would play on that like you're desperately trying to be a good person I mean eventually in next to him he defines what a good person is pretty much so he's setting you up to want to do what he wants you to do

[00:46:54] in order to be a good person he makes those things line up so he's double binding you into a definition of a good person who's gonna do something that's gonna give the person you care about a heart attack you know you back down

[00:47:06] in the back of your mind you know you've got a ton of competition for his attention so you're not gonna screw up and put yourself on the bottom of that list interesting even when I thought I was the one you know the only one or the one

[00:47:20] I knew there was a ton of women in line waiting for my position so you had to stay in line to maintain that attention from him which eventually I lost all the attention from him I barely saw him towards the end

[00:47:32] well hope that next time extravaganza blew your hair back and just your hair we'll be back soon with all new episodes and in the meantime you can always find us over on patreon it's patreon.com slash a little bit culty dropping new episodes every week

[00:47:56] and as you know if you want to learn more about next time's rise and fall you can also always go stream both seasons of the vow on max formerly known as HBO he's you've never seen it it's a real nail biter 10 out of 10 would not recommend

[00:48:08] living your life in a way that it would make a good HBO doc you serious nope see you next week for our last mashup and then we're back for season 6

[00:48:48] and if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet sweet swag or official ALBC podcast march or a list of our most recommended cult recovery resources visit our website at a little bit culty dot com and for more background on what brought us here

[00:49:02] check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called scarred true story of high escape nexium the cult that found my life it's available on amazon audible narrated by my wife and at most bookstores a little bit culty is a talkhouse podcast and a trace 120 production

[00:49:17] we're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames with writing research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy we're edited mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of citizens of sound and our amazing theme song cultivated is by John Bryant

[00:49:33] and co-written by Nigel Asselin thank you for listening