The NXIVM Extravaganza | Moira Kim Penza, Robert Gavin, and Vanessa Grigoriadis

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access. To powder-skiing legacy. To independent spirit. North where easy to get to. Meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:27] The views and opinions expressed by Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast. That's true.

[00:00:36] Any of the fire content provided by our guest bloggers, sponsors, or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything. Unless you're abusing people then I have a problem maligning you.

[00:00:50] Also, we're not doctors, psychologists, or wizards. We're just two non-experts trying to make you a friendly informative podcast that helps you understand culty shit. Hey everybody! Sarah Edmondson here. And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC.

[00:01:18] A podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side. We've been there, and back again. A little about us. True story, we met and fell in love in a cult. And then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge.

[00:01:30] The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow, now in its second season. I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred. The true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:42] Look at us. A couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night. We interview experts and advocates in things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait, this does not count toward date night bait. We gotta schedule that that's separate.

[00:01:55] So it's two days we gotta hang out? We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium. Still on that journey, and we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:07] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level market.

[00:02:18] This stuff really is everywhere. The Cultiverse just keeps on expanding, and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com

[00:02:38] Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode of A Little Bit Cultie, the final mashup in a series of five mashups. We're just mashing over here, mashing it up. This one's actually quite timely because it comes on the heels of Masterson's sentencing.

[00:03:07] And this one has a justice ring to it. No, Sarah? It's all about it. And which is rare in these cases, I think why everyone in the survivor cult recovery space is talking about and really noticing the difference in what is happening in the court systems.

[00:03:24] Can you summarize what happened to Danny Masterson who is a Scientologist for those who might be unaware? The summary is, as I understand it, he got sentenced to, I think, 30 years to life for raping, I believe, three people over 20 years ago. Convicted of two, I believe, though.

[00:03:42] And I believe Scientology had a hand in silencing the victims because they were Scientologists. So basically there's an ecosystem of abuse within Scientology that silenced these women and protected Danny Masterson.

[00:03:55] So this is another gut punch and I think Leah Remini is someone we can thank for this to the Church of Scientology. And also go to her page if you want to know more about it. She's very vocal.

[00:04:05] She's doing, I mean, she's spending her own money. She's a true force and an example, I think, for everyone who's pursuing justice and how to do it. So she's one of our personal heroes. She and Mike Reinder.

[00:04:15] Also if you've been following the Lori Vallow case, she was found guilty of murdering her two children.

[00:04:20] And if you don't know anything about that story, it is absolutely heartbreaking and that can be covered in more depth in our episode called Murder, Faith and End Times with Leah Sattilli on Lori Vallow and Chad Debell,

[00:04:31] which is a fascinating book about the whole prepper meets extreme Mormonism, meets delusions of grandeur and many other things. So yeah, I feel like things are shifting.

[00:04:43] At least people are being educated more in what it looks like, which is great, which is prevention, you know, dealing with aftermath. But let's dig into the main course, shall we Sarah? Yes. This is our second Nexium extravaganza.

[00:04:55] We hope you liked last week's episode with Mark in India and Susan and Karen. Reminder, we will be back soon with all new episodes.

[00:05:03] Until then, you can always hang out with us on Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty if you are just craving some fresh, fresh culty, culty content. But for this mashup. Keith Rene's trial was at the center of the Valle season two.

[00:05:17] And this episode is taking even further into the courtroom circus. We're featuring insights from three people who had a close look as anyone could get. First, you'll hear from our personal hero Moira Kim-Penza, the prosecutor who brought Keith Rene to justice. Her accomplishments are mighty.

[00:05:34] Like Keith's conviction on all counts, including racketeering, sex trafficking and a brisk 120 year sentence, Moira's groundbreaking approach to the case has been credited with paving the way for other sex trafficking prosecutions against powerful individuals. In other words, she's a total badass.

[00:05:49] In this episode, Moira sits down with us to talk about what it's like to take on a world-class dirtbag, our wording not hers and what really chaps her ass about Nexium's Voldemort.

[00:05:59] More about today's guest, Moira is now in private practice as a litigator and a partner at Wilkinson Stuckcloth. Crane's New York business named her in the 40 under 40 list.

[00:06:08] She's been ranked as one of Bloomberg's laws 40 under 40 and her legal analysis has been featured in The New York Times, CNN, ABC, NPR and Daily Beast. Next, you'll hear from Robert Gavin. Robert has been a news reporter for 28 years, also having worked for two years as an editor.

[00:06:24] Originally from Staten Island, Gavin began his career by covering the New York City police and fire departments, the NYS Capitol, state and federal courts, various murder trials and cases involving terrorism, mafia, street gangs and political corruption.

[00:06:37] And eventually, Robert's role in the Nexium trials and their coverage would play a crucial part in bringing down Keith Reneary. Finally, you'll hear from Vanessa's Gregoriatis, who is an award-winning long-form journalist and podcaster, having published profiles on the likes of Carl Lagerfeld, Lady Gaga and Ariana Huffington.

[00:06:54] So how'd she get tied up in Nexium's bullshit while also reporting on the cult? Well, the short answer is anyone and everyone is susceptible to coercive control and persuasion, even members of the press. The long answer, I guess you're just gonna have to listen to find out.

[00:07:07] If you enjoyed this episode and missed the longer version, please go back to seasons one and two and three and find the full version if you were feeling like you just wanted to know more. Until then, here is our Nexium Medley, part two.

[00:07:21] For the listeners who don't know you and your role in our lives in the Nexium trial, would you mind just bringing us back to the moment when like you're living your life and you read the New York Times article and that or whatever started your journey with us?

[00:07:47] Sure. So I was gonna say you really were right there at the beginning of the journey, Sarah. So it was just reading the New York Times, which I do every day. I'm a lifelong New Yorker. And front page was this story about you.

[00:08:05] And I was immediately drawn in as I think so many other people were. And for a number of reasons, I mean we were right at a moment in time where people were starting to really talk about abuses of power. I went to school in upstate New York.

[00:08:20] I went to undergrad at Binghamton. I did law school at Cornell. So that was something that was very interesting. But I think in particular to me what stood out was that I immediately thought there is more to this story and that there's potential criminal activity here.

[00:08:37] Being a federal prosecutor at that point in time, I was in a position where I was able to react to that in a way that, you know, thankfully we got a great team together and we were able to ultimately bring put together this case.

[00:08:53] But it was really starting out just seeing what you had said had happened to you. Hearing what Catherine and Mark were saying in that initial article and just immediately trying to learn more.

[00:09:07] So one of the first things that I did after reading that article was basically get on the internet and try to learn everything I could because in some ways it was shocking that I had never heard about this before.

[00:09:20] Given how many people had gone through naxium classes, given the fact that there had been this investigative reporting many years before that had uncovered a lot of wrongdoing and what looked like criminal activity, I was really surprised that I had never heard of this.

[00:09:39] And so immediately start digging in, see all of the websites for Keith Reneary, for all of these sister companies, for all of these various individuals and it was just all of a sudden I was truly down the rabbit hole.

[00:09:55] And just to be clear, like I know that you have talked about your experience speaking with law enforcement and you knew that we were going to talk about that today. But normally I wouldn't talk about my interactions with somebody who spoke to me as part of my job

[00:10:11] and as part of being a witness without their permission. But I'm doing it kind of in this context and understanding that I have your permission to kind of talk about those initial experiences. You can talk about anything for me related like it's all good.

[00:10:24] Open book at this point. Right. So one of the first things I did was really try to figure out who was your agent, who are your lawyers. And so I think the first people I spoke to were people who were connected to you as entertainment lawyers,

[00:10:40] not as a lawyer representing you in the context of naxium, the criminal organization. But really sitting down with you, that was one of the first experiences that we really had where we started to learn more about this organization and more about what was happening.

[00:10:57] And that's really what we did right away. So I read the article, Tanya Hizhar, who is the other prosecutor who ended up trying the case with me. She was immediately interested as well.

[00:11:08] That day we got this incredible FBI agent, Mike Weneiger, assigned to the case, his colleague Mike Lever, and then Charlie Fontanelli, who was actually New York State police. And that was huge too to have that connection right away.

[00:11:25] And so we had this team right away that was incredibly invested in us. And so within weeks we were sending out tons of subpoenas and we were meeting with witnesses and meeting with survivors, victims.

[00:11:41] It was so much so quickly that is not always typical of a law enforcement investigation because based on what we were learning beyond the New York Times article, we had every reason to believe that there were still women in danger at that point in time

[00:12:01] and that there would be continuing criminal activity if Keith Reneary were not stopped. Wow, I got goosebumps. I think that's an accurate assessment. I want to go back because you read the article and you have an impression. And you have an impression that there's abuses of power.

[00:12:18] What was your hypothesis as to what it was? And then compare that to what you learned on what you uncovered. Because I know for me, I knew there were some abuses going on after that, but what you guys uncovered shocked me. Way more.

[00:12:31] So right away, when you were reading the original article to have the allegations about collateral, that sort of coercion, when you hear that, that enables so much criminal activity. It's not just in the Naxiom context.

[00:12:49] In so many crimes what enables it to happen is the ability to have that coercive control over people. Whether you're talking about the mob, whether you're talking about a street gang, whether you're talking about a drug cartel.

[00:13:03] Once you have that source of power, you have an amazing ability to victimize people and commit different types of crimes. So that stood out right away. And then of course the allegation that Keith Reneary was behind this so-called women's empowerment group.

[00:13:24] It was just a shocking thing right at the outset. You know, and I think that was something that throughout the whole case really resonated with people. Like this fundamental fraud that you had this man in the background as this puppet master.

[00:13:41] I wish I could say I was shocked, but I had done a lot of victim-centric cases, a lot of sex crime cases. By the time I read the article in The New York Times, so by the time I'm reading about Sarah's experience, I had seen coercive control before.

[00:14:03] I had seen victims of sexual abuse and really shocking crimes already. You know, and I almost had a reputation in the office although I hadn't been there that long as the person who got these quote crazy cases or took on really these quote crazy cases.

[00:14:25] But they weren't crazy to me, right? It was really these are, to me, these were the worst crimes that are being perpetuated. 100%. There was part of me that immediately thought there could be a sexual component to this.

[00:14:42] And that was corroborated, that gut feeling very quickly because I met with people who had been assaulted by Keith Ranieri and as part of DOS. So I think that was something that happened really quickly.

[00:14:56] And then I do give enormous credit to the Albany Times Union and what they had been able to uncover all the way back in 2012, a lot of the predicate acts and the background of what I became kind of this criminal organization that I charged,

[00:15:15] a lot of that had been identified before. And it was very troubling, of course, that it hadn't been stopped earlier. But then there was more uncovered. And I really do think it was a matter of really building trust with people, really understanding where people were coming from.

[00:15:36] You know, I always come back to the agents, but I think their rapport, the fact that we all came to this with a healthy skepticism, but immediately were confronted with real facts that showed that there were crimes here that needed to be prosecuted.

[00:15:55] This might be a little earlier than we wanted to ask it, but you said something that has really been my question as this whole thing unfolded from the beginning because I was there in 2009 when a lot of these women complained and I went in and asked everyone,

[00:16:11] what's going on here? Because I was thinking of getting out or just leaving, not knowing there's too much here to ask questions to. And I got lied to to see that Times Union was actually on the scent and wasn't able to get the proper investigation

[00:16:28] or Keith arrested. I felt like if these things were true, then there was a criminal justice system in place that would held him accountable either locally or wherever. That's actually what Lauren said. She said, if these things were true, he'd be in prison.

[00:16:41] And I was like, oh, okay. Obviously that's the question. And subsequently, since we started our podcast, we've asked a lot of these people why they think these abusive power have gone on. A lot of them do have protection from certain government agencies through loopholes.

[00:16:54] I'm just wondering what you think happened there, why it was able to exist and quote unquote get away with it. What do you think went on? Are you allowed to answer that? Frankly, I can't fully comprehend why law enforcement didn't act earlier.

[00:17:11] Of course, this is a very complex case. And I came at it in a world in which I had a very dedicated team. I was at the Eastern District of New York, which has a lot of resources,

[00:17:26] which has a historical practice of prosecuting these really big racketeering cases. So I had all of that on my side, but I do think it's a real question that still remains out there as to why nothing was done earlier. And Judge Gareff has raised that during Lauren's sentencing.

[00:17:48] And I think that was just a powerful moment because I think all of us, as proud as we are of the resolution that we got in this case and the fact that Keith Rinaria isn't able to hurt anyone else,

[00:18:00] there's still a real sadness and it really is a tragedy that so many people, including Sarah, including the other women in DOS, they never had to go through that had this been stopped earlier.

[00:18:17] And so I think that's really one of the things that I think remains a mystery. However, if I were to hypothesize, I think a big factor was the amount of funding and financing that was behind this.

[00:18:35] And so when you look at the campaign that was initiated just against you after the DOS story was broken inside the organization, where you had someone who's actually able to get on a plane and try and get authorities to act against you, Sarah.

[00:18:58] And where that has happened in the past successfully, where they have been able to go after critics where other people have been able to, you know, have essentially prosecutions handed to them in a box. I think that that is something that is very powerful.

[00:19:18] And so I think the other thing though is that there was just a ton of fear in terms of the people who were victimized, right? Understandably so. I think once DOS happened and once that really blew up and once there were people speaking out,

[00:19:34] that enabled other people to be part of a group. And there was still an enormous amount of fear, right? Every single witness interview I did, I was, you know, talking people down, explaining the fact that they were protected now,

[00:19:49] that it was very unlikely that there was going to be any physical violence, that it would be very hard to retaliate at this point in time. But I think until then people would have been outliers.

[00:20:01] And first of all, it's hard to build a case if you don't have cooperative witnesses, right? That's pretty fundamental. And then on top of that, you know, people didn't want to say these things happened to me because they didn't believe anyone was going to support them

[00:20:19] and they thought their own lives would be ruined instead. And that's the pattern they had seen already. Sure. That makes sense. We tell our stories. We change the world. A little bit cult is proud to support the hashtag I Got Out Project,

[00:21:01] which empowers survivors of cultic abuse to share their stories online as a catalyst for education, prevention and healing. Learn more about the hashtag I Got Out movement and find resources at IGotOut.org. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are your self-care non-negotiables?

[00:21:51] Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga. Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. That's my personal and everyone's dream, isn't it? Well, I definitely have some non-negotiables. Like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature.

[00:22:07] Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it. Nature is a non-negotiable. Not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded. Therapy Day is a bit like my nature walks. I try to not miss it

[00:22:19] and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it. It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place

[00:22:27] and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need. Like, I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people. You know what I mean? Thanks Therapy!

[00:22:36] Thanks for helping me see that. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist

[00:22:48] and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Look, even when we know what makes us happy, it's hard to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever. Never skip Therapy Day with BetterHelp.

[00:23:02] Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H-E-L-P dot com slash culty. Like most federal trials, if you've covered a lot of federal trials, if there's any federal prosecutors listening, I think they'll know what I'm talking about here.

[00:23:23] It's almost every single case. The opening statement will be, this is a case about insert your crime. This is a case about greed. This is a case about theft, blah, blah. I wasn't like that with Nexium. Tanya Hajjar, who did the opening statement, she really told the story

[00:23:40] and opened up this world of the three sisters and how they had been all had different experiences within Nexium. They told the story of how basically Keith Reneary had taken advantage of them and branched out from there to talk about the case.

[00:23:56] I thought it was a very powerful opening and really showed people. If you didn't know what this case was about, that's what this case was about. Keith was sitting there, and every day Keith Reneary had a sweater and he had his little tie on.

[00:24:11] He had basically a different color of a blue, usually a blue sweater, kind of like this here, and then there'd be the tie there. He looked very preppy. You see if Keith Reneary, where he's got the long hair, and I think there's even video of Keith

[00:24:27] where he refers to himself as looking like a cult leader with long hair. But Keith at trial looked like a college professor from the 80s. He's always a few decades behind, isn't he? Yeah, I think that's probably true. He had his attorneys there. He had Mark Agnephilo.

[00:24:46] He had Paul Darinassian. And then there was also two other attorneys there, Daniel Smith. But he had a lot of attorneys. And I think when the trial starts, the very first witness, they called was a woman who had been in DOS.

[00:25:00] I'm not going to say her name because I don't know how open she is about going public, but she had been in DOS. Married, by the way? Yes, she was married woman who had been in DOS and everybody in that room who had been there, it was clear

[00:25:12] she did not want to be there. I was there. Wait, Nipah, you were there? And then I left right after the metadata. Wait, so did you guys meet? Nipi and Rob, did you guys meet? I think we did, but it was so...

[00:25:27] I think the second or third day I met you in the park. I think I passed you in the park. I was laying left. It was crazy, you know? There was a lot of people around. I mean, it was a jam-packed courtroom. Yeah, because I mean honestly,

[00:25:41] I wasn't until recently that I even mentioned Daniela because to me, I didn't want to identify her sister. But now they're all public, so it's kind of like, you know, it was strange for me the fact that the names were being mentioned.

[00:25:51] I thought that was kind of weird. Not in court, that people were mentioning it in print. That was unusual. When she revealed that Keith went down on her and she had to talk about that in a trial, I thought for sure, similarly to how I thought

[00:26:04] when watching the van, we'll get to this later, that that would certainly be the straw that broke. Can't the camels back for people who are still loyal? Or at the very least have the appropriate effect on them. Yes. It's astounding, there were many points of that trial

[00:26:19] where you would think anybody hearing it would be like, are you kidding me? Every day and I think, you know, Nipi knows this from being there, it was like every moment, every day you'd say, well, I can't get any stranger and it would get stranger.

[00:26:33] Like I remember one day being there and I thought it was going to be a procedural witness. I'm like, this is just going to be a, you know, a witness to just lay down some kind of foundation.

[00:26:43] And it was the guy from, I want to say excessive restraints or whatever, I'm probably mispronouncing the name but it's from a California company and they start showing pictures of dog collars and there's like chains and dungeons. And we're just looking at each other like,

[00:27:00] I don't think we can say this on the air, but we're like what the- You can say anything, you can let it rip here, Rob. This is not the Times Union podcast. Okay, I was just like what the fuck is going on here?

[00:27:10] You know, it was bizarre and to put it mildly, you're just sitting there like why are we seeing this? And party is like, I don't know if I want to know why we're seeing this, but yeah, I could laugh but it was a very serious thing at being,

[00:27:24] the foundation was being laid for and that was for when Lauren Salisman would get up there and Lauren would say that she didn't want to be in the cage and be punished for quote unquote, indiscretions by Keith Ranieri.

[00:27:36] I mean what, if you think about it on the surface, like you're like what part of that sounds good? We're gonna put a cage in a strange house here in, you know, Saratoga County, New York, which is gonna be our house, you know,

[00:27:49] and if you do something Keith doesn't want, you're gonna be punished. I mean, I think in a lot of ways, you can make the case that Keith seems to really excel at getting people to do things that they would never want to do.

[00:28:01] And there's things that have come out of that case that I don't think a lot of people may not be aware of. Including the fact that there was testimony from India Oxtenberg that Keith had himself and also directed Alison Mack

[00:28:14] to use the N word to a black woman in DOS and Michelle Hatchet, which is your racism and it's just horrendous. But as far as when you hear things in next to him, it just kind of gets lost in the shuffle,

[00:28:27] almost like, you know, the quote unquote enemies in Nancy's basement. There's all these parts of this case that could just in and of themselves are appalling, when you hear everything, it's very hard for a lot of it to overshadow other parts of it.

[00:28:41] But I do think the branding and I think the fact that people were quote unquote slaves does, I think that's, it did get a lot of attention because it's bizarre. But I think Nipi will support me on this.

[00:28:54] In court, as bizarre as the case probably sounded to people reading it, stranger in person. You know, there was a lot of things there. You know, there's a lot of testimony in court sometimes where you hear someone saying something and they're like,

[00:29:05] well, you know, we're going to allege this person said this or the police officer said that he said this. But in next to him, we heard Keith saying, so yes, it's alleged, but we heard tape of Keith Reneary telling Allison Mack

[00:29:18] what he wanted women to say when they were being physically run. We heard his voice over and over again. So it's one of those cases where is it really going to believe me or you're lying eyes and ears?

[00:29:29] That's kind of, I think, why it was so hard for them to mount a defense. I found that as time went on, we did start seeing supporters of Keith Reneary in court. I didn't really know who they were at first and then more

[00:29:42] and more they would appear there. And honestly, by the time you get to closing statements, and I could talk about any witness because there was a lot of the, you know, witnesses were very powerful, especially Daniela, especially, you know, the actress, Nicole, I thought Lauren was,

[00:29:58] I mean, you want to talk about an effective witness. She's about as effective a prosecution witness as I think I've seen in a case like that. And when I say a case like that, because there aren't a lot of cases like next to him,

[00:30:10] but in a racketeering case and I've covered organized crime trials and it shouldn't be lost on people that at the end of the day, that's what Keith was charged with. And that's what Tanya Hajjar and Moira Penza had said

[00:30:21] during their statements and opening an information that he was a crime boss and you sit there and you go, crime boss, well, he sits there like he's an intellectual or his critics might say pseudo-intellectual. But you know, that's what he presents himself as,

[00:30:34] but he's doing things that a crime boss does. That's the con. When you say that every day was like crazier and crazier, do you have one or two particular moments that were like the craziest or anything that stands out other than what you shared to tell us?

[00:30:47] There's definitely a few of them that stand out. One of them was when Daniela was talking about, I mean, she was talking about how at a point where Keith Reneary had not been speaking to her for months. I've been avoiding her and accusing her of not doing

[00:31:03] what she should have been doing. She falls asleep on the couch and she says he comes in and he hasn't spoken to her in months. Sees her there, drops his pants while he thinks she's sleeping and basically, and again,

[00:31:15] I put all these in advance but this is what came out in court, basically dropped his junk on her face for like X amount of Mississippi and just left it there. And I remember her saying that and there's the look of horror on her face.

[00:31:29] I remember looking over at Reneary, just thinking like, are you kidding me? The other one, and this is not quite as, I don't want to say it's any less appalling but it's lighter I guess in some ways, in some ways maybe.

[00:31:42] So there's testimony about DOS and the food habits and I believe it was Lauren. I could be wrong. I think it was Lauren who testified this and if I'm wrong, I apologize that you know, it might have been one of the other witnesses.

[00:31:54] So there's testimony about the eating, you know rules and what you can't eat and can't eat. So it comes out that Keith puts, tells them they can't have anything to eat, puts a pie in the refrigerator like apple pie or something and then puts a camera up there.

[00:32:10] So when these women have to have like, you know, 500 calories or less a day, this guy is putting like pie like right there and puts a camera and eventually one of them goes in and has a slice. Keith runs down and starts going,

[00:32:24] going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going, and making the oinky oinky noise after they did it. And I just remember the way the testimony came out. I'm looking over at him and it just was like,

[00:32:36] are you kidding, like, did you really do that? Like what kind of a human being does this? You know, this sort of sadistic and you know, in meanwhile it came out that he's going to volleyball and they're showering him with chocolates and kisses.

[00:32:50] It's not like Keith was, you know, based on everything we saw and I'm not one to talk myself here as far as I'm not the healthiest eater in the world. But I think it's suffice to say Keith was not having less than 500 calories a day. He was pudgy.

[00:33:03] I know you haven't heard her episode with Karen and our audience has, but I will just tell you there's another story in addition to that where she shares that she and Keith set up the camera and then watched the footage together

[00:33:14] and saw Pam, Kay Fred's, eating the cake. She called it cake. And then making out with Marianna on camera which then turned Keith on and then he went and had a threesome with them and left Karen in the living room. So there's an addition to the story.

[00:33:29] Yeah, there was a lot of testimony about Keith and threesome's and yeah, I definitely want to listen to Karen's podcast for sure, what she was on. It's wild. There's a really appalling instance. Daniela testifies about coming back and I think it's when she got back from Canada

[00:33:45] and Keith basically, I don't want to say threesome but I don't know that she partook with this other person but basically he has her and her sister together and I remember she testifies and then she says that was Christmas

[00:33:59] and it's just like, you know, the horror of this situation. I'll tell you the testimony of Daniela talking about trying to get out. The fact that she was in the room, the conversation about credential problems, the medical issues that were not being met,

[00:34:15] the letters she wrote where she's writing in caps, what the hell is wrong with you people? I mean it's clear, you know, this is not something this woman's making up and then she talks about making it up route nine at one point like near the Walmart,

[00:34:27] nearly making it out and then goes back. This person has nowhere she can go and I think part of the problem is that Keith set things up in a way so that I think he would, I don't think he ever thought he would get caught.

[00:34:40] I don't think you make videos of yourself and take the steps you take if you really think you're going to get caught and to be honest, there was no reason given the fact that we, the TU had written a huge series of articles on Nexium and Keith Renear

[00:34:56] including the fact that he had sexual, alleged sexual encounters with underage girls which, you know, by the way and I'm not trying to pick on someone who's still serving time here you know, Nancy Salisman during the vow in the second season talks about

[00:35:11] how, oh my god, we didn't know about this or at least gives that impression well this was all covered. So this was known and it's not like she's a lower ranking member and a lot of people have told me when they were in Nexium

[00:35:23] they told us not to read you guys whatever and I think for a lower ranking member I can kind of understand that you're being told what to do but Nancy was the president so you know she knew damn well what was in those articles

[00:35:35] Hey there listener, hope you're enjoying this episode and that you're taking deep breaths when we cover the enraging stuff that cult jerks are up to let it out as in the yoga practice inhale positivity, exhale negativity that's for you Sarah

[00:35:49] we got this, no hulking it out all you little hulksters and if you need some helpful resources on the topic of cult recovery check out our website at a littlebitculty.com and now here's a brief message from our sponsors and we'll be back with a new episode of

[00:36:09] the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives listen to infamus wherever you get your podcasts this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp what are your self care non-negotiables no need to be a part of this it's just a matter of time

[00:36:27] and I'm not going to be a part of it but I'm going to be a part of it and I'm going to be a part of it and I'm going to be a part of it so for your self care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day

[00:36:39] or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it

[00:36:55] nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself, not grounded I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better

[00:37:07] all around if I make it a priority I get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need

[00:37:17] like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean, thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give BetterHelp a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient

[00:37:31] and you can make it easy to have a safe questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge look, even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it

[00:37:41] but when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy day with BetterHelp visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culty everything, I mean I think

[00:38:03] it really fucked me up I went a lot, it's like a mile from where I live I was like I gotta see what's happening here and the fact that there was no video and there was no audio in the courthouse I went from thinking

[00:38:19] you probably have seen the transcripts or whatever of that when Claire was arranged and the judge went off on her for the $100 million bail and like what is wrong with you you know, like what is wrong with you and I mean it's so fascinating just because

[00:38:37] she's from this prominent big Jewish family in New York these things matter right? that's a very key thing to say I think, these things matter or whatever but like these things matter and people reached out to me after the article

[00:38:49] and they were like you're joking me that this is the Bronfoun girl like what you know, these are pillars of the temple, what is happening and so I went from seeing Claire be arranged and being like oh my god this is real, these people are going

[00:39:05] to prison, there is no question everybody is burning and the idea that you're all standing by Keith, anybody connected to Keith is going to burn right? but having it as the trial played out reveal more and more of Keith's utter and complete madness you know

[00:39:29] and the women who took the stand I mean again, I would say the women who took the stand were shockingly like articulate and just telling an incredible story and like it goes back to this idea that you guys talk about all the time which is like

[00:39:47] who can be in a cult like who gets in a cult because you have this idea that it's just like brain dead people right? but it's not and you know, I don't know it was just, it was I found it to be like one of the most disturbing

[00:40:05] like I had complete insomnia during that trial, I was just totally freaked out yeah and I mean I'm like freaked out these people are in the world you know, I got just freaked out by the whole thing. Yeah, I was too at the same time I want

[00:40:21] some of them to have another life right? like I mean I feel both ways I mean I'm like some of them I don't want to have another life I totally do for sure Keith needs to stay in prison for the rest of his life

[00:40:31] part of this whole thing of why like when Mara reached out I was like yes of course and she was saying that you weren't sure like how we feel about you and I just want you to know and I meant to say this at the beginning

[00:40:43] I think I did actually like no hard feelings because for us like anyone who goes oh shit, like this is bad then we're fine with like we're all on the same page right? like but there was a time we're forming people there was a time as you know

[00:40:57] that we didn't trust you and I just wanted to tell this backstory because I think it's interesting how it all played out like and a lot of our fan base our survivors and a lot of them are just nexium we call them nexium nerds

[00:41:07] they're like obsessed with this story and they want to know all the details and I just think this part of history is so wild because you know as you know the New York Times came out and I was in the cover and then we had heard

[00:41:17] friends still on the inside who were kind of playing both sides right and they were like they're gonna do a counter piece we were told that they were hiring you that's so crazy and I was like I don't think they can do that

[00:41:29] but that was sort of like how it was being pitched like they were curating the story so we knew that this was happening and my memory is fuzzy five years ago and we were in trauma so Nipi you've correct me if I'm getting something wrong here

[00:41:41] jump in anytime but I was in trauma too so well maybe a little bit we went in and out of different amounts so we heard that you were writing the story and then we didn't know who it was and then I guess through my PR

[00:41:57] like I had to hire a PR team because I was getting so many requests and like I didn't know how to handle it and you know like date line and inside edition and doctor and 2020 like it was everybody wanted to talk

[00:42:07] so hired a PR team and they brought me to you and I think they kind of vetted you but there was this whole internal the people who were out we weren't on the same page because they I believe you wanted to speak to us

[00:42:19] like Mark and Bonnie and Nipi and I and I think oh god what happened the first time we connected or was it that your first time you connected with Mark I don't remember but there was something I think I talked to Mark

[00:42:31] and the conversation you had with him led us all to believe that you had already been indoctrinated and that you were like brought into the fold and you were drinking the Kool-Aid and they didn't trust you and this is where we didn't have the same

[00:42:45] approach I remember thinking well if she's drinking the Kool-Aid and she bought into the whole consenting adults narrative then we need to tell her our side of the story right and fill you in right well what happened from my

[00:42:57] again like it's a little fuzzy for me as well but from my perspective I got everything I needed from Nexium so I said okay great now I'll talk to the defectors now I didn't think you guys were going to be hard to talk to because I just assumed

[00:43:11] well these people want to talk to everybody because they're trying to get the word out and they seem to be talking to everybody so I don't think this is going to be a problem right and again I think that's looking back on it that was naive so I

[00:43:25] I believe reached out to Mark and Mark and I got on the phone but I was also wary of what could be put on the Frank report or something else of what I would say because again

[00:43:39] like I got what I needed from Nexium but we still needed to like you know fact check the thing finish the thing like the best tactic for me was to have both sides talking to me and then put my piece out and that would be

[00:43:51] when Nexium found out what I thought right and so I talked to Mark I mean my recollection of it and Mark may have a different one is that he asked me who I talked to and I said Lauren and he was like whoa what I remember now

[00:44:11] that's probably the one person that you could have said that would have struck the fear of because she spends a good one because she's smart well I'll also say this she did a very very good job at normalizing

[00:44:25] the abuse of stuff because she had been in it for so long so she really didn't believe it was bad and she's cool like we pictured you and her hitting it off and we were like oh fuck and now I remember her subtly dropping comments about our character

[00:44:39] I remember what it was now you guys spoke and Mark even though we were all on the same side like there was still a bit of the ranking system like Mark was above at least for me he's leaving the charge

[00:44:51] we disagreed which is one of the first times that it happened since leaving but I remember now I remember now so before you and I spoke and you guys had that conversation and you said that you spoke to Lauren and you were like whoa

[00:45:03] in that whole time frame Bonnie found on the Frank report someone had taken snap taken pictures of the summit at apropos and she saw someone she didn't recognize in the crowd and it was you and she figured out it was you

[00:45:19] and then she was like oh my god she's in there she's infiltrated I thought that as well though well we all did we had a conversation under their terms because you were now an enemy but the difference was I was still like I'm going to talk to her

[00:45:37] we still have the truth and I know that if they're going to head back to Vanessa and she's going to buy in because Lauren is so cool and hip and whatever branding blah blah blah then I have to tell you

[00:45:49] and so we did but we did it off the record and it was a huge turning point I mean for me and what had happened was I said I think to Mark let me send you it was hard for me to understand

[00:46:03] I was like are you guys not reading what I write I've written hundreds of articles that are not positive on a lot of different stuff but I sent the article that I had written about landmark to mark without really looking at it again and then when I went

[00:46:19] and looked at it I was like oh my god there's like 10 quotes in here from Chuck Palinac and that's how you pronounce his last name like from the Fight Club writer and all these other people saying how great landmark for him is and that story was about

[00:46:31] like I attended landmark and went on the subway after one of the sessions and I saw one of the guys who was in there and he was a refugee from Africa and a woman who had met him you know on

[00:46:47] the subway actually I think had like just walked up to him on the subway and said do you want to change your life like I'll pay for you to go to landmark for him and so he was sitting there

[00:46:57] and then I saw him on the subway and he and I started this whole conversation and it was really this like interesting question of like do you want to change your life I mean this guy is like living as like a Shabbos Goi and like he has nothing

[00:47:09] and like he's not looking at his personal growth he's just trying to like day to day like feed himself you know so the question of landmark and like what are you really getting and who is it catering to and how deep are the questions

[00:47:21] they're really asking was like very much part of that story but I did what I normally do which is I try to like you know do sweet and sour right because I think that's much more effective like in a lot of storytelling you know you want

[00:47:33] the suspense I mean look at even the way the vowel season one is constructed like the whole thing I mean what I was amazed by is those first couple of episodes of the vowel I was like this feels like my journey being like what is this

[00:47:47] thing and they're trying to explain it to you through graphics and through you guys coming in but it's so incredibly like or neat and complex and it's like looking at this big you know expression as painting or something you're like what is this so for me I felt

[00:48:03] like okay well Mark will you know everybody can look at this landmark story and they can see that this is not a positive story but I wasn't at that point planning to put in like a million incredible quotes by like Lauren like saying

[00:48:17] this is the greatest thing ever I mean I was going to do some of that but I wasn't so anyway whatever it basically just like I was there at the coach summit like they invited me to go I was extremely happy to be there

[00:48:29] and I'm so glad you did situation and you know as I do like in my podcast I think that one of the big moments where I was just so thoroughly sick of them was during the coach summit I was standing in their like sort of halfway back

[00:48:43] stage and I had an iron out and an ironing board to like iron on the sashes and in the main room Allison had a bunch of the Mexicans there and she was like everybody we're gonna play charades like this is how you play charades

[00:48:59] and I was just like you know what I'm done I'm out of here I can't do this one more minute like I can't do this anymore right like I just I can't be in here like this is such a charade you know and we know the feeling

[00:49:13] of having to sit in that room with those orange chairs and the bad lighting for 12 to 14 hours a day for eight days right yes people think that you can't be indoctrinated or brainwashed try sitting in apropos talking about what is the difference between honor and character right and

[00:49:31] we at least do some like cross minute the same time so we can get in shape or like it's like to star ourselves run later yeah I used to leave and like pretend to go pick up Troy or like have a emergencies that I could just go for

[00:49:45] a walk as I was like losing my mind so listen I get it but then you got on the phone with me I mean basically what happens is like there's this sense like no they're not talking to you and I was like what so we were

[00:49:57] talking to you because Mark had decided that it because you said that you were only speaking to Lauren and we knew that that wasn't true they didn't trust you in my mind it was when he's like first of all look a lot of journalists

[00:50:11] if somebody says who are you speaking to the answer supposed to be I can't tell you but I'm speaking to a lot of people and I'll make sure I'm fair right like that's the answer but I was okay like let me tell

[00:50:21] them so I said Lauren and my recollection was I was like he was like whoa whoa whoa and I was like why better stop right there you know right listen we all were paranoid for different reasons I mean and probably yeah us probably more so and listen

[00:50:37] Nippy and I discussed whether we were to share this with you but we felt like we needed to come clean we were so paranoid especially because we weren't sure if you were a plant or hired because we thought you might be hired that was one of the theories

[00:50:47] and we said that we weren't going to record our conversation we did record our conversation ah okay and we didn't show we just wanted to tell you but we felt bad about that because that would be an example of an ethical lie

[00:50:59] which we talked about in the future well I wasn't playing by anyone's rule I was like fuck you not you Claire I'm protecting my family yeah I'm gonna do it now we didn't show it to anybody it was just to like

[00:51:13] in case it was protective it was in case well I mean to me the big turning points for me were first of all talking to you and when you told me about the grandmasters because I didn't know that to that point

[00:51:25] and you said like what they called them grandmasters I was like this one's a master of them blah blah blah blah like how does this really work you know and at that point I think I had had Keith telling me

[00:51:35] I had you know I had sex with one maybe two people who are in DOS like I don't really you know I know them I mean I'm more intimate but it's not sexual and like blah blah blah blah and I just remember you like laying that out

[00:51:49] and you were like oh honey this is not like this is I mean I probably didn't say to you like I don't understand but like that's what was going on I was like I don't really understand I can't accuse this man of sex crimes

[00:52:03] unless I'm sure remember this is all like pre-indictment right right so talking to you was a big like a big shift for me because I had talked to Rick Ross but you know Rick Ross is like Rick Ross's role in this whole cult scene is so fascinating

[00:52:19] to me and like who pays his bills and how that all works and his role is just to be like a spear right just to say like this is really bad everybody listen to this pay attention over here so it was like okay

[00:52:31] well you know fine you were involved also in this major lawsuit but like I need to get closer in and the other person who I think felt burned by my story because I didn't use that much of her unfortunately and the part that we used was maybe not

[00:52:45] the part you wanted to was Barbara Boucher was incredibly helpful to me like incredibly helpful and I feel bad that that happened and one of those things that happens like when you're closing a piece blah blah blah you know but like the two of you

[00:52:59] that I felt were leveling with me that were trustworthy that were smart and could explain like why this Fakakta philosophy was not like do you know what Fakakta means? am I like dumb? like why don't I understand this philosophy you know like no it makes no sense

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[00:53:53] justice all that talk of convictions and prison sentence has me I don't know what's the word feeling vindicated we hope you liked it dear listeners we will be back soon with all new episodes and in the meantime check us out on Patreon that's patreon.com

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[00:55:31] for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called scarred true story of how I escaped next year the cult that bound my life it's available on Amazon audible narrated by my wife and at most bookstores

[00:55:47] a little bit culty is a talkhouse podcast and a trace 120 production we're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Niphy Ames with writing research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy we're edited, mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of citizens of sound

[00:56:05] and our amazing theme song Cultivated is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin thank you for listening