To the Moon and Back: Lisa Kohn and the Unification Church

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[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: This podcast is for informational purposes only

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and should not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Sarah Edmondson

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm Anthony, air quotes Nippy Ames

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is A Little Bit Culty

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_04]: You're already prime recruitment material

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You might even already be in a cult

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Oops! You better keep listening to find out

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to season 6 of A Little Bit Culty

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everybody and welcome back to this week's special episode of A Little Bit Culty

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you do voiceover work?

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I do

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I can tell

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: You should break into it too without a honey voice

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean there's only one honey voice in this podcast

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Just keep reminding you

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's see what the audience has to say about that

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: No, yours is honey too

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yours is silky

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh thank you

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you all have had a fabulous summer

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We are gearing up

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Kids are back in school and

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We are working on our book

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And football season has started speaking

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you mean football season?

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I have no idea

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Our whole life revolves around football

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we should do an episode on the culty side of football

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god, I feel like I'm in it

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we are going to do one on the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned, we are working on it

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: If anyone has a suggestion of who to interview

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We are watching the docu series and shocked

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: More than a little bit culty

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Taking a hard look at my participation in the

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes you should

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_04]: As you should

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Interest faction is mandatory in this house right Sarah?

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes introspection is a part of being a cult member

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: As it was for us

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's other things as we're going to find out today

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know anything about the unification church?

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: How is that segue?

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean the Mooneys

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually I believe that Mooneys is technically a derogatory term

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: According to some so we're not going to use that

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_04]: To the Mooneys or to the people that have left?

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to be mindful of the terms

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I'm offending the people that are the perpetrators

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm okay with that

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to, yes

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: If people who have left don't like the Mooneys

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to call it the unification church

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But yes, I mean the church created by the

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Reverend Sung Yang Moon

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: The Unification Church

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm wondering about it

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Well it's interesting because the Unification Church

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes gets mentioned and clumped with

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Truly horrifying cults like the People's Temple

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Which was Jim Jones in Ghana or Heaven's Gate

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Where there was a mass suicide

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not like that

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Well there's no body count per se

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It's more known for

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Well so it's more known for forcing

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Its adherence to give over large percentages

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Of the earnings to the church

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_04]: But the Unification Church is not known for like

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Mass suicides

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Right?

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, so for our listeners here's the basics

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Born in 1920

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: North Korea, Reverend Moon

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Taught that Jesus Christ came to him

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: In a vision

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: When Moon was just 16 years old

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: According to the Unification Church canon

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Jesus was divine but not

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: The one true God

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Instead the Unification Church teaches

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: That Jesus was supposed to be

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Something closer to a second Adam

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: God intended for Jesus to find a wife

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Create a perfect family with her

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And cleanse humanity of its sinful ways

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Peacefully

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But Pontius Pilate and the Romans

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Messed that up when they came and crucified

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And unmarried Jesus

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So Reverend Moon returned as the second

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Coming in 1920 and married

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Hak-ja-han, his second wife

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: To become the true parents of humanity

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: The Unification Church believes that

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Moon and Han would marry couples together

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And to God

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_04]: So Reverend Moon returned to fix

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_04]: What the Romans couldn't handle

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Correct

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Or what they ruined

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_04]: How often do you think about the Roman Empire, Sarah?

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Not as often as you, babe

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's all coming back to me now

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I've heard of the Unification Church

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Massive events in the 70s

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_04]: The ones where hundreds of people

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Got married at the same time

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, which brings us to our guest today

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Her name is Lisa Kohn

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And she grew up as a member

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Of the Unification Church

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: She likes to tell people that

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Quote

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: The best seats I ever had

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_01]: At Madison Square Garden

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Were at my mother's mass wedding

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: End quote

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: She published a book in 2018

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is brilliantly titled

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_01]: To the Moon and Back

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: A Childhood Under the Influence

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Loved this book

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Audio book is being released this year

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So we thought we'd catch up with her

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And discuss her experiences in the church

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And find out what those weddings were all about

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Right

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Lisa will talk with us about those things

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: As well as how she and the world at large

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Has changed since she left the Unification Church

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Great, let's hear it out

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Lisa Kohn

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Lisa Kohn, welcome to a little bit culty

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh hello and thank you for having me

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I am excited and thrilled to be here

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like this

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I do say this a lot

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: A culty that it's a long time coming

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But it really is

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I knew what you were going to say before you said that

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_04]: You did

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Well Lisa, I've been in touch for a while

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I've had your book for a while

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_04]: When you open with the quote from Springsteen

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_04]: You know it's going to be a good book

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Rosalito was a soundtrack to my youth

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, oh my god

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_04]: She picked

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about it

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I've seen him nine and a half times

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And the half was because I got escorted out

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_04]: In Madison Square Garden

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I just because I need to know why you were escorted out

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And I've seen him a hell of a lot more than nine and a half times

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_04]: The same security guard

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Caught me three different times sneaking up to the front row

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And he was like, look

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I was drunk and he's like, look I got it

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, I get it

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Ladies and gentlemen this episode will not be about the Mooneys

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It will be about the boss

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But there is a tie in to Madison Square Gardens

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Which we'll get into

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Hell yeah

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Hell yeah, I was just there for a Billy Joel concert

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, oh yeah, remember when

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yes

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Was it different than seeing your mother get married with 1200 other women?

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Hmm, let me think

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_06]: A wee bit different, yeah

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_06]: A little bit more fun

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_06]: A little bit more relaxed

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_06]: A little bit less of a mind fuckery

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_06]: So yes, I just remember that I can totally curse, right?

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Major potty-mouth

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Times but just checking

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, well we've changed our policy

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We're now more puritanical

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh wait, no, that was your fault

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: That was your fault

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I will say that I did look this morning

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm like, I think I am the first Mooney

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_06]: So wow

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm gonna correct you

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I couldn't find it

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Well here's the deal

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Our very very first episode with

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: was with Steven Hassan

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_04]: But we didn't Mooney out

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But we didn't geek out so much

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: into the history of the Mooneys

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of where

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I want to hear your story as we always do

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in a little bit culty

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna be talking about your book

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but I thought we could get a little bit more

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: into like the beliefs

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and the principle

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Well suffice to say

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Like when we talk about what we did

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_04]: people are like, is that like the Mooneys?

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So the Mooneys has always been a constant reference

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_04]: or parallel to our story

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and we I'd say it's we're overdue to do an episode

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we are overdue

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_04]: of the cult Mooneys

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it okay to use the term?

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: because some people say it's derogatory

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, it was derogatory

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I use it all the time

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_06]: And I do refer to it as the cult

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_06]: of all cults in the American age of cults

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_06]: It was like it was it

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_06]: it was the place to be in

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_06]: and yet on the Netflix documentary

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_06]: they deemed him the most successful cult leader ever

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Wow

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing, on what grounds

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: just based on recruitment numbers

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: money?

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Based on the fact that he knew how to set it up

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_06]: to keep going

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's still there

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_06]: It is still there

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_06]: That was my question

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_06]: He did die with almost a billion dollars

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Wow

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I believe the wealthiest religious leader ever

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_06]: um, religious

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_06]: in quotes for those who can't see me

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_06]: and yeah

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_06]: and it's still going on

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_06]: it still exists in very scary ways

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well we'll come back to that

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but when you say it was the cult of all cults

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: for those who don't know anything about it

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: like paint the picture

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: what did your mom think

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that she was signing up for?

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Back in the, what was that now?

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: late 60s?

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_06]: early 70s

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_06]: early 70s

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_06]: my mom joined in 1974

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_06]: 1974

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_06]: we joined in 1974

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_06]: um so

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_06]: the unification church

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_06]: is the Holy Spirit Association

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_06]: for the unification of world Christianity

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_06]: So it really was

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, moon

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_06]: soft proclaimed Messiah moon

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_06]: I can tell you that story

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_06]: but it was

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_06]: there was the Old Testament from the Jews

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_06]: there was the New Testament from the Christians

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_06]: and there was the completed Testament

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_06]: from moon

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_06]: because moon was here to complete Jesus' mission

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Jesus died

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_06]: when he was not supposed to

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_06]: and moon was here to be

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_06]: was the Messiah

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_06]: is the Messiah

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_06]: and was here to complete all of that

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_06]: and so cult of all cults

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_06]: because

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_06]: in the 70s

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_06]: do Google and watch the Saturday Night Live skit about it

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_06]: it was in cards

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_06]: like greeting cards

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_06]: it was in the papers

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_06]: people were kidnapping their kids

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_06]: parents

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_06]: kids were fighting their parents in court

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_06]: it was just huge

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_06]: in the 70s

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_06]: when you know

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_06]: as I like to say

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_06]: in the 60s it was all about free love

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_06]: and then in the 70s

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_06]: it was about self-actualization

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_06]: and bettering the world

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and yeah

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_06]: we were just part of that

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_06]: just a big part of that

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_06]: the most famous part of that

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Right

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: with your mom

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: your parents will split when you're a toddler

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: before she was a member of the unification church

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: she was a seeker

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: can you just tell us

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit about that

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: what was she like

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and what were some of your early memories of her

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: seeking enlightenment

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: in that era

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_06]: the funny thing

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_06]: yes I wrote a memoir

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_06]: my memories are really sketchy

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_06]: it's okay

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_06]: so

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_06]: my mom

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_06]: my mom tried on just about everything

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_06]: it was the 60s

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_06]: and so there was

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_06]: she went to a commune every summer

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_06]: we were about to move on to a commune ourselves

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_06]: before we moved into it with my grandparents

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and then ended up in the church

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_06]: she did born again

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Christianity

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_06]: she did Hinduism

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_06]: she did primal screaming

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_06]: she did encounter groups

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_06]: she did

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_06]: macrobiotic diet

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_06]: where all we ate was rice beans and seaweed

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and I like to blame my anorexia partly on that

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_06]: she did

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_06]: she doesn't like when I do that

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_06]: she just did

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_06]: everything always looking for a way the way

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_06]: you know she did non-talking days

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_06]: where she wouldn't talk to us

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_06]: and she wouldn't talk to my grandmother

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_06]: who was dying of cancer

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_06]: my mom a driver

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_06]: her radiation appointments every day

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_06]: and not talked to her

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_06]: because it was a

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_06]: not talking day and that was more spiritual

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_06]: so she just was always looking for

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_06]: more

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I love the line in your book

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that she was trying on religions

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: like most women try on clothes

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that was such a visceral metaphor

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_06]: it was just a new thing

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and a new thing

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and we just went along

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_06]: obviously we went along with it

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_06]: someone once asked me

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_06]: why did you believe the unification church teachings

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_06]: and I said

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_06]: why are you Catholic

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_06]: or Jewish or Protestant

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_06]: or whatever you are

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_06]: like

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_06]: you're told it's right

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_06]: and so you believe it

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and besides

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_06]: my mom was happier when she found it

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean as I will quote your friend Mark

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_06]: right no one joins a cult

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_06]: they join a good idea

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_06]: and realize they were fucked

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I use that all the time

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and also

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: correct me if I'm wrong

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but the feeling I got from your book

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: is that you wanted

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: not only wanted her to be happy

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: but you wanted to please her

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and part of that was like

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: going with her on this journey

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah so

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_06]: long story short

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_06]: my parents as I like to say

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_06]: met in high school

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_06]: got pregnant got married

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_06]: had my brother had me and split up

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_06]: and I like every child of

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_06]: young child of divorce

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I probably knew it was my fault

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_06]: the relationship was not good

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_06]: my dad was violent

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_06]: you know all of the above

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and I was terrified

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_06]: my father left

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_06]: and I was terrified

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_06]: my mother would leave right

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I literally would sit outside the bathroom

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_06]: when she was in there

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_06]: waiting for her

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I would wake up in the middle of night

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_06]: when she'd leave us alone

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_06]: and call around trying to find her

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_06]: my brother used to tease me

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_06]: that she would leave too

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_06]: so everything was about

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_06]: being near her

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_06]: being with her

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_06]: keeping her happy

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_06]: giving her no excuse to leave

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_06]: like my dad had left

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_06]: so none of it being a conscious choice

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_06]: just you know

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_06]: your life depends on it as a young child

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_06]: so she was seeking an unhappy

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_06]: and was such a hippie

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_06]: and I hated it

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I hated all of that

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_06]: and then she found the church

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_06]: and she became more straight-laced

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and conservative

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and I liked that

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_06]: and she became happier

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_06]: and she's like this is wonderful

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and as I share with people

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_06]: that sometimes people read the book

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_06]: and they say well you don't make it sound that bad

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_06]: and in many ways joining

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_06]: was a heave-in for my brother and I

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_06]: based on what we'd experienced before

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_06]: you know my brother

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_06]: my dad had my brother smoking pot at the age of 10

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and at one point

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_06]: my brother Robbie turned to me

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_06]: and he said

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_06]: do you think I'd be a heroin addict

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_06]: if we hadn't joined the church?

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_06]: and I'm like maybe probably

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_06]: like we had no rules other than

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_06]: don't shoot up smack on 2nd Avenue

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_06]: because you'll pass out

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_06]: so you have to come upstairs

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_06]: to shoot up smack

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_06]: because you can pass that upstairs

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and that's safe

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_06]: so it was

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean people say that it didn't sound bad

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm like it was awful

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_06]: it was a cult

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_06]: it obliterated my mind

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_06]: when I learned what it does to you

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_06]: when you grow up in it

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_06]: it's radical and awful

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and also it was a safe place

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_04]: there was structure for you

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_06]: and everybody loved us

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_06]: there was structure

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_06]: there were a lot of members who adored us

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_06]: who absolutely were like cute little

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: 10 and 11 year old kids

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and also the way that you describe it

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: in your book

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: there was many times where you were able

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: to have fun and explore

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and have this kind of unique

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: lifestyle on these compounds

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and in these really unique spaces

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that I could see would be

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: unique spaces

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_06]: we were best friends with Moon's kids

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_06]: because there weren't other kids

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_06]: in the church

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_06]: so we'd hang out with them

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and ride motorcycles around

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Barrytown the biggest state

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_06]: or run through the hallways

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_06]: in the New Yorker

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and just slide down the huge escalator

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_06]: I still go into the New Yorker hotel

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_06]: and see the huge escalator

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_06]: we used to slide down the thing in the middle now

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_06]: they have bumps on it so you can't

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_06]: but it was an amazing slide

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_06]: we lived this crazy life with his kids

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_06]: because we could get away with anything

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_06]: it was fun

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_06]: and yet also my mom left

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_06]: my biggest fear happened

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_06]: my mom left us, asked us what she should do

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_06]: and we're like oh you should probably leave us

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_06]: and so she left us to move into the church

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_06]: so it was the best of all worlds

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_06]: it was the worst of all worlds

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_06]: to quote someone else

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you have this line that's become

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of a quick introduction to your book

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: the best seats

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: quote the best seats I ever had

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: at Madison Square Garden

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: circling back to that

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: my mother's mass wedding

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and the best cocaine I ever had

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: was from my father's friend, the judge

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: so let's just take those two things

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and draw them out

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_04]: those are two distinct influences

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: yes it's a very unique life

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_01]: regarding your mother's mass wedding

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: when did she first discover

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: what do you like to call him

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Moon?

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Reverend Sun Young Moon

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_06]: back then I called him true father

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_06]: true father

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_06]: for a very long time I did

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_06]: refer to him as Reverend Moon

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_06]: until one day my therapist said

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_06]: don't you think you should drop the Reverend part

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_06]: so I do refer to him as Moon

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_06]: also sometimes I refer to him as true narcissist

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_06]: but that's a whole different thing else going on there

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_06]: so but I just referred to him as Moon

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_06]: is the best way to not

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_06]: it was funny because when I as you know

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_06]: I just read the audio book

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_06]: and after reading the audio book

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I found myself referring to him as father again

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_06]: which is just was wonky weird

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_06]: but so usually Moon

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_06]: so yeah my parents

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_06]: like I said got married way too young

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_06]: split up very young we lived

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_06]: with my mom my brother older brother and I lived

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_06]: with my mom in East Orange New Jersey while my dad

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_06]: just kind of traveled the world and

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_06]: went into the Sahara desert where no white

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_06]: people go and come out alive and came

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_06]: out alive and did all these different things

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_06]: and both living

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_06]: their very different hippies

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_06]: lifestyles and then in 1972

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_06]: we were

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_06]: going to drive across country to California

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_06]: to join the commune my mom

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_06]: went every summer she wanted to bring Robbie and me

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and instead my grandmother got diagnosed with

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_06]: cancer so instead of driving across country

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_06]: we drove across state to Millburn

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_06]: New Jersey and moved in with my grandparents

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_06]: fast forward my grandmother dies

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_06]: we stay with my grandfather

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_06]: and then

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_06]: you know I barely ever go see my father

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_06]: because his lifestyle scared that

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_06]: everything out of me

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_06]: and I was

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_06]: a mommy's kid and then

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_06]: to get to moon in 1974

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_06]: my mom's friend who she used

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_06]: to hitchhike across country with

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_06]: called her and said you need to go hear Reverend Moon speak

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_06]: and she went to hear him speak in January

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_06]: of 1974 and came back

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_06]: a changed person and for all this

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_06]: is amazing Jesus wasn't supposed to die

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_06]: they know what they're talking about

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_06]: and then in

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_06]: around July, June or July members convinced

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_06]: her to go up to Barry town for a weekend

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_06]: and she came back and went up for a week

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_06]: and came back and went up for a couple weeks

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and basically spent the summer

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_06]: up in Barry town being

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_06]: indoctrinated

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: what's in Barry town?

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Barry town New York is a huge

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_06]: was a Christians

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_06]: brother school a huge building

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_06]: it became their theological seminary

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_06]: it was just a very remote

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_06]: as most indoctrination centers for the

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Mooneys were

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_06]: place where they would take people up

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_06]: it's two and a half hours

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I think from New York City

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_06]: they would take people up and spend the weekends there

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_06]: so it was dormitory living

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_06]: my brother remembers way more than I do

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_06]: the first time we got to share

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_06]: room with my mom and after that

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_06]: my mother and I were living with the sisters

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_06]: and my brother was off with the brothers

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_06]: and a huge dormitory with lots and lots of bunk beds

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_06]: dormitory living in a lot of lectures

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_06]: on principle, divine principle

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Mooneys teaching

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_06]: tell us about the principle if you don't mind

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_06]: chapter one

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_06]: chapter one is creation

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_06]: and what God intended

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_06]: man and woman

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_06]: man subjugating woman

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_06]: man is subject, women is object

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_06]: how we were supposed to be fruitful

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_06]: multiply and take dominion of the earth

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_06]: and we'll get on the

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_06]: be fruitful as the perfection thing there

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_06]: like row to perfection and then keep going

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_06]: chapter two is the fall of man

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_06]: where

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Eve was seduced

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_06]: by Lucifer

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_06]: and had sex before she was supposed to

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_06]: premarital sex with a archangel

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_06]: and then Eve seduced Adam

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_06]: and they had sex again premarital sex

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_06]: and that is the fall of man

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I literally my older child

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_06]: has gotten involved in a temple out of Minneapolis

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_06]: and they were talking about

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_06]: chapter two in Genesis and they're giving

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_06]: some whatever their explanation is

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_06]: it's a very radical wonderful queer

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_06]: temple and

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_06]: my brain is going no

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_06]: it's sex

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_06]: it's sex because when you grow up in this

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_06]: stuff it's really hard to get it out of your head

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_06]: so that's chapter two and then

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_06]: it just continues divine principle continues

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_06]: to show how man has over

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_06]: and over and over again failed God

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_06]: broken God's heart

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_06]: we were supposed to

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Jesus was supposed to come and take

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_06]: a wife have family bring the king

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_06]: of heaven on earth but

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_06]: the Jews failed everybody failed

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_06]: and he was killed and so

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_06]: the divine principle culminates

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_06]: with all this numerological stuff

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_06]: that shows that one

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_06]: the Messiah must come from Korea

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and two the Messiah will be born

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_06]: between 1920 and 1930

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_06]: they never say moon is the Messiah

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_06]: but it just so happens that he's from

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Korea and he was born then

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_06]: so it's a

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_06]: the divine principle is a mixture of

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Eastern philosophy

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Eastern teachings and Judeo-Christian

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_06]: stuff it just kind of gloms it

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: all together what do you think it was about

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that glom that was so appealing

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: to the young people

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: of that era

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think it's necessarily

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_06]: the glom I think

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_06]: I think because

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_06]: because I've had friends look at it and go

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_06]: it makes no sense and people

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_06]: out of it now look back and go it makes no

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_06]: sense even though my brain still thinks it makes

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_06]: sense sometimes you know when

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_06]: I watch the vow

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_06]: and I watch the way you were indoctrinated

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_06]: we were so damn good at that

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_06]: like it was just

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_06]: they were brilliant

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_06]: on how to bring people in

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_06]: very similar

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah it's very similar I just I was watching

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_06]: I was watching going yep yep yep

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean that's not what happened to me

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_06]: but I'm very aware of that being

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_06]: there's a book called heavenly deception

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_06]: which is a supposedly fictional account

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_06]: of a someone whose sister

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_06]: joins the moonies and she goes for the weekend

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_06]: to get her sister out

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_06]: spoiler alert she never comes out

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_06]: but they would do things

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_06]: like in the book but it's also

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_06]: true that you know at the end of the day they'd say well just

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_06]: write down one thing that you agreed with today

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_06]: and in order to shut them up

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_06]: you'd write down one thing and then two days later

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_06]: you look at it and you'd be like oh I wrote

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_06]: that I must believe

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_06]: that like that brain our biases

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_06]: and our brain and what it does to us I do a lot of this

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_06]: in my work teach a lot of this in my work

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and they just use the brain to

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_06]: get people to

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_06]: you fall into it and

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_06]: it was a beautiful promise

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_06]: one family under God

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_06]: everyone all together

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_06]: that you know saving the world

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_06]: easing God's pain

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_06]: you know I was um

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I think I was listening to one of your episodes

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I've listened to a lot and someone was talking about

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_06]: you know God is always watching you

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_06]: and when you sin you're going to be like

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_06]: sent to hell and my brain

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_06]: went God if it was only sent

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_06]: to hell that would have been easy

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_06]: when I did something wrong

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_06]: I was breaking God's heart

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I was causing

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_06]: God to suffer for

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_06]: 6000 more years I was

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_06]: you know so

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_06]: so there is the guilt it's and as

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_06]: I always say

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_06]: as humans we crave certainty purpose and community

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_06]: mm-hmm right and you all know this

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_06]: right purpose you know why you're there

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_06]: every Monday morning you know what's

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_06]: what's going on certainty it is the most

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_06]: intoxicating drug to have

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_06]: a Messiah it is a beautiful

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_06]: awful drug and community

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_06]: as long as you never leave you have the best

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: community ever yeah that's I think

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: probably the biggest draw of the glom

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that we were talking about earlier it's not so much

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: the teachings it was the community

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the certainty and

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01]: some answers for living at a time

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: where you know historically

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: people were like you said at the beginning

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_04]: searching also imagine seeing

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_04]: it work air quotes for your

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_04]: mom right must have

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_04]: been something that you know oh it's

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_04]: offered her structure

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_04]: there's a subtle

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_04]: buy-in yeah

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_06]: as I wrote she you know she stopped cursing

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_06]: she started giving us bedtimes

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_06]: she started wearing a bra

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_06]: all these things are really important to me

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_06]: at that time and yeah she just was

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_06]: happy and

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_06]: she was happy and the members were happy

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_06]: everybody was so freaking happy

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_06]: right you have the Messiah

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_06]: what what is better

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_06]: than having the Messiah

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_06]: being part of that new family that's going to

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_06]: change human history

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah it's a powerful drug

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_06]: and you got to be friends with the children

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: of the Messiah

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_06]: what was that like as friends with the Messiah's

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_06]: children it is

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_06]: it is um it was

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_06]: another mind fuck so it I mean

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_06]: in many ways it was wonderful

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_06]: and they were wonderful

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_06]: and I am one of the few people who grew up

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_06]: in that who have compassion for them because

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_06]: their lives were awful it was just

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_06]: horrific to be them

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_06]: and on the other hand so as I like to say

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_06]: they're the true children they're the children

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_06]: of the Messiah that is as holy

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_06]: and special as anybody could possibly

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_06]: be and then there were

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_06]: what were known as the blessed children

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_06]: those are the children who were born to the people blessed

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_06]: in marriage in those huge mass weddings

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and they're born without original sin and then

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_06]: there's me you know tainted

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_06]: sinful ungodly

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_06]: broken you know awful

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_06]: me so it was like a mixture

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_06]: of wonderful and

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_06]: totally fun and then also

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_06]: knowing you never deserved it

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_06]: like who are you to be with them

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_06]: you know I have a one of the

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_06]: people I grew up with uh I

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_06]: can reconnected with her and she had been out for a while

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_06]: at that time and she said and when

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_06]: so my friend was injured she said

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_06]: when I saw engine I still bowed to her

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_06]: because

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_06]: because you bowed to them because this is my friend

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_06]: but it's also the Messiah's

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_06]: child and then also like

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I lived this I lived with Satan

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_06]: when I went home Monday through Friday

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_06]: afternoon I lived with Satan

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_06]: and my dad sex drugs and squalor life

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_06]: and

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_06]: so and then I would be at moon's

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_06]: house in east garden

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_06]: running into afraid

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_06]: to run into him knowing that

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_06]: my dad was satanic and your dad

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_06]: is the Messiah and yeah let's

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_06]: just hang out and play so it was

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_06]: like very weird it was only when I met her as an

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_06]: adult that I started getting equal basis

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_06]: with her this podcast

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_01]: certainly would not be happening without our amazing

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: supportive generous patrons

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: are you with us come find us over

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: on patreon at patreon.com

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit culty for bonus episodes

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: ad free and exclusive content

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and the occasional zoom

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[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Q&As and all sorts of goodies

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: it's fun over there people

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: okay

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: reality check school is back in session

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling the pressure

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: from new pickup schedules to

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: football season for both kids picking up

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: again keeping track of everyone's location

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and schedule is a full-time job

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_04]: but you know it's keeping me calm in the chaos

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_04]: life 360

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: life 360 is a family connection

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and safety app that lets you track your family

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: members locations in real time

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: helps me coordinate communicate

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and create peace of mind forget the

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_04]: constant where are you

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_04]: and did you make it text

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_04]: with life 360

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_04]: our family can share our locations seamlessly

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: when I flew back from New York the other day

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Nipi used life 360

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: is landing notification which sent him an alert

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[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I had to know I also love linking

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[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: no more searching now I just ring it from

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the app and find them within seconds

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_04]: life 360 gives me peace of mind

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_04]: in the palm of my hand knowing

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_04]: where everyone in my family is at any given

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_04]: time yes please

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_04]: anything to help me decrease that mental load

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess we both have a mental load babe

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not just me

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_03]: just realizing that aren't you there are

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[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to get the kids back in school

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[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_01]: now let's get back to a little bit culty

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: shall we

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_04]: was the church aware that you were taking

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_04]: off money through Friday with such a

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_04]: contrasting lifestyle was that something

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_04]: you hid from them or what was the

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_06]: so yeah

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_06]: you know we I would

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_06]: have given anything to live in I

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_06]: desperately wanted to live in you know

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_06]: when my mom moved out

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_06]: and she left us with her grandfather

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm in sixth grade and I'm responsible for all the cooking

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_06]: the cleaning the shopping everything I'm responsible for

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_06]: everything until my grandfather sent

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_06]: long story but sent to the

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_06]: psychiatric ward of the local hospital

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_06]: and we get shuffled around Robbie and I get

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_06]: shuffled around and someone goes to get my mom

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_06]: and she says not my problem and doesn't come

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and my dad Danny comes and gets us and we

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_06]: move in with Danny and I

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_06]: was very adamant to both my parents

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_06]: please please let me live with mother

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_06]: please let me live with mother

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_06]: but

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_06]: my mom deemed that it wouldn't be good for

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_06]: us to be living in the church

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_06]: and I like to say

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_06]: and we'd be better off with my dad which is

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_06]: just a weird thing because both my parents have

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_06]: apologized to me about leaving me with the other one

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_06]: but that's a whole different story

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_06]: so like I didn't want to be there

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_06]: and like it wasn't

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_06]: like anyone so and I didn't tell anyone

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_06]: because I was just so embarrassed of what

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_06]: it was and so ashamed

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_06]: that that was my life and so

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I once said to Robbie I said

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_06]: how did we go back and forth

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_06]: between like these two worlds

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and he said to me I don't know

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I wasn't there because I think we both just kind

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_06]: of like hunkered down and hid in some

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_06]: ways so very few people

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_06]: knew only a couple people as I got older

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_06]: when I when I reconnected with

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_06]: engine she had no idea what it was like

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_06]: with Danny my dad

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_06]: but it wasn't like

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_06]: they wanted us to be in the center

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_06]: and we chose not to no one would ever let

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_06]: us live there no matter how often we

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_06]: asked for it so it was a

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I think because we would

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_06]: have taken away my mom's attention

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I think you know she

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_06]: ironically when my mom first moved in

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_06]: she helped run the group

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_06]: for people who had kids and couldn't move in

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_06]: and most of her time in the church she raised

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_06]: blessed children she worked in the nursery

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_06]: when people would have kids and leave them

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_06]: at the nursery at three months old and go off

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_06]: and do their missions and my mom raised

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_06]: a lot of kids there was one time where

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_06]: she she worked at Jacob house

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_06]: and she would sleep in the middle of the

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_06]: on the floor in the middle of the room and there'd be six cribs around

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_06]: her and each sister there raised six kids

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_06]: and into this day

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I meet people and they say oh your mother was

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_06]: so good to me like yeah

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_06]: she was so

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_06]: that's bizarre I mean I'm assuming that it was

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_06]: like there was no room for

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_06]: again we were not blessed children we were

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_06]: not important we were not

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_06]: we were not you know valued

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_06]: other than just the people who loved us

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_06]: so yeah and again

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_06]: it's not one of those cults where you leave and they come after

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_06]: you I left and or as I slowly drifted

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_06]: away and nothing

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_06]: happened they still haven't really come

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_06]: after me even with everything I do so

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: they've never tried to see you for your

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: book nope

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_04]: nope nope the children run

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_04]: it right

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_04]: kids run so it's now

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_06]: split into three factions

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_06]: and one faction is run by Hock to Han

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_06]: which is his wife true mother who now

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I think refers to herself as

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_06]: the true Eve

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and says that moon was misguided

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_06]: in what he was doing

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_06]: another faction which I think actually

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and this one was a you know

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_06]: lawsuit with Hock to Han

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_06]: and this faction is run by his oldest

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_06]: living child because oldest

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_06]: living son because many many

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_06]: a number of them have died in different

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_06]: ways and

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_06]: but I could be wrong and

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_06]: and that runs all the businesses and

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_06]: that sort of area and then the third faction

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_06]: is wrong by his youngest son whose

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_06]: English name is son Sean moon

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_06]: and that sanctuary church

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_06]: and if you haven't heard of them you should they're

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_06]: the ones who carry a

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_06]: a 15s air 15s the automatic

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_06]: rifles to their ceremonies

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and he wears a crown

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_06]: of bullets a golden crown bullets

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_06]: he believes the rod of it's the church at the

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_06]: rod of iron he believes the rod of iron means

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_06]: guns and he is training

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_06]: people to kill

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_06]: and yeah and do does

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_06]: believe that he should take over not only

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_06]: the church he calls his mother the

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_06]: the whore of Satan or something like that

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_06]: and but he also believes he should take over

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_06]: our country and run it for God

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_01]: this is active in in the US

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_06]: active in the US active

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_06]: in Bucks County Pennsylvania yeah

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_06]: there's a I think

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_06]: any did a

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_06]: a documentary on it a while

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_06]: ago there was an article in the Washington

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_06]: post I always get them confused

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_06]: the Washington Post many years ago yeah

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_06]: it's very active

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_06]: small but it's

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah but it's Bucks County I drove past it

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_06]: I was going up to spend the weekend with my friends and all of a sudden I'm like

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_06]: shit

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_01]: well back to the 70s for a moment

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you thank you for the

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Mooney's update but back to

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: your childhood

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah a lot of

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: people myself included like when

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you know we have these peripheral

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: understandings that say Harry Krishna's

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and we think of the shaved heads and

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: the yellow robes and then

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: we think of Mooney's and like

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: because that I you know I came

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: later you know born

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: in 77 of his born in 74 I don't

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: have that same like

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: personal interaction with the Mooney's but

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: what were they like what were the stereotypes

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: were they known for other than giving up flowers

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and the mass weddings like what were

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_01]: what was the stereotypes

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_06]: so it was definitely

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_06]: the flowers didn't give them out

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_06]: sold them oh yeah sold them

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_06]: heavenly deception right you can you can lie

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_06]: for anything to raise money for God

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_06]: the glassy Mooney smile

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_06]: always smiling

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_06]: always happy

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_06]: glassy in the eyes probably because

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_06]: they didn't get enough protein and they didn't

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_06]: get enough sleep and they were high

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_06]: on God as they used to say

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_06]: but they are the ones who are on the street

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_06]: corners in a lot of places on the college

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_06]: campuses in a lot of places I left

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_06]: when you said Harry Krishna because my

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_06]: my high school boyfriend which is the start

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_06]: of my leaving in a long way but

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_06]: when I told him about it his comment was

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_06]: but your head isn't shaped because we were

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_06]: that was like the two cults was Harry Krishna

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_06]: and Mooney's and as you

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_06]: know when you're in a cult you look at the other ones

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and you're like oh my god they're weird

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_06]: when I was proselytizing in Seattle when I was

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_06]: 15 I was trying to bring in a Mormon

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_06]: and I kept thinking man she's in a messed up

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_06]: religion

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_04]: isn't that funny how you can be in something

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_04]: and see

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_06]: well even I was just on a podcast with someone

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_06]: who's evangelical and he was talking

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_06]: about the rapture and as he finished I said

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I want you to know that my brain is going

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_06]: that is weird

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_06]: but Korean being

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_06]: the language of the kingdom of heaven that makes

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_06]: total sense

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_06]: right

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_04]: what do you think you glean from it

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_04]: like what experience with the church

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_04]: that you consider to have

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_04]: a positive impact on your life

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_04]: and I imagine structure played a role

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_04]: at some point

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah um someone else just asked me

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_06]: that the other day it was interesting

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_06]: so

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_06]: well I will say that when I wrote the book

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_06]: and I was kind of like that was the first time

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I could see the good and the bad if you will

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_06]: but I remember thinking

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_06]: so when I was young I wanted to live

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_06]: in the center and we weren't allowed

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I wanted to do anything to be helpful

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and there was nothing I could do I felt very useless

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_06]: for God so I determined I would love

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_06]: my brothers and sisters so much

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_06]: because they were working so hard

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_06]: and so I

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_06]: now have a personality where

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_06]: it's all about love and I literally

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_06]: took a course of certificate in positive psychology

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_06]: and they nicknamed me love embodied

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_06]: because I'm really loving

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_06]: and so I determined that maybe

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_06]: that I got that from

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_06]: being in the church but I will tell you that when I

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_06]: reconnected with Moon's daughter and with other

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_06]: people are like nope you were like that when we met you

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_06]: so it's not that

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_06]: but I you know if I were to look at the

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_06]: positives I think

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and maybe it's the two worlds together or just

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_06]: the essence of it

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_06]: the ability to

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_06]: hold complexity and dualities

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_06]: and see different perceptions

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I definitely

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_06]: have a strong desire to share

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_06]: what I now believe

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_06]: to be true with a small T

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_06]: right you know that loving

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_06]: ourselves loving myself will save the world

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_06]: right and I do

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_06]: probably try and still save

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_06]: people try not to try to

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_06]: save people but like I am an executive

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_06]: coach and I'm a leadership consultant and I'm still

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_06]: trying to make things right out there

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_06]: and also in the work I do around this

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_06]: that the structure

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_06]: was absolutely helpful

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_06]: at a time because it gave us something

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_06]: to keep us from completely

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_06]: imploding I know

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_06]: that I look back on my own path

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_06]: and you know I think my mom said

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_06]: when I was young it's like I have a steel rod for a spine

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_06]: I am

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_06]: remarkably able to

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_06]: get through

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_06]: just about anything

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I like to say I have a mighty mouse complex

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_06]: and if you put something in front of me

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_06]: I will do it really well

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and I will even if I drive myself into the ground

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_06]: now I've gotten a lot better

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_06]: at that but that ability to get

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_06]: through

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_06]: is I just would say probably

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_06]: a result of

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_06]: the positive or the negative

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_06]: of my childhood I was sick two years ago

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I had cancer

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_06]: still weird saying that and

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_06]: getting through that like just the ability

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_06]: to get through whatever life puts in front

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_06]: of me is probably

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_06]: comes from

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_06]: figuring out how to

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_06]: manage through again the moonies

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_06]: all of that what it did

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_06]: to me that I was completely unaware of

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_06]: and then the dichotomy of going back

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_06]: and forth between both sides of craziness

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_06]: of the 70s

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_04]: my hit just from listening to the

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_04]: podcast you're on and reading

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_04]: not all of your book part of your book

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_04]: is

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_04]: you have patience it seems to me

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_04]: had I been in those situations I would have been

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_04]: lack of a better way of putting it just pissed off

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_04]: and maybe you had your moments of pissed off but

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_04]: you took care of your father

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_04]: and you still have a relationship

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_04]: with your mother it seems to me

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_04]: a lot of people wouldn't have the emotional

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_04]: maturity to get to that point

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_04]: if that's a fair assessment of it

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_04]: but I just remember thinking

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know that I would have been

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_04]: taking care of my dad

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_04]: in the way that you did that

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_04]: or that accepting

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_04]: there's a book that Sarah gave to me called

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Radical Acceptance and

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_04]: you know I'm like I don't think I'm there

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_04]: with everything

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Tara Brack, have you read that?

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, love that book

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Love Tara Brack, absolutely

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_06]: absolutely

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_06]: like that's kind of how I build my life

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_06]: on that sort of stuff and you know it's funny

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_06]: because when my dad

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_06]: and Danny first had his stroke

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_06]: and I was taking care of him

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_06]: and I did all the way till his death

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_06]: two years ago

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_06]: and my mother in law said something to the effect of

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_06]: oh you have to take care of your parents

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_06]: and then she read the book and she's like

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_06]: oh no you don't

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_06]: but

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I have an incredible

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_06]: to a fault

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I have an incredible heart and can

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_06]: forgive or make space

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_06]: or I will tell you like the negative side of it

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_06]: my therapist says to me

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_06]: most of my clients I really try to get them

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_06]: to take other people's perspectives

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_06]: you we need to pull you back to yours

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_06]: most of my clients I really need to get them to compromise more

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_06]: you we need to get you to say

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_06]: no, right so it's

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I can do it

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_06]: to a fault

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_06]: but yeah I do have a relationship

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_06]: with my mother I did take care of my father

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_06]: I like to say that in the last six months of his life

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_06]: I cracked him open cracked his heart open

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_06]: and made him actually

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_06]: give him receive love and so I will never regret

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_06]: taking care of him the way I did

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_06]: even the last six months which were painfully

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_06]: hard and right before I got sick

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_06]: but yeah so it's

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it gave me

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_06]: that's how I came through it

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_06]: and maybe I went into it with it but it definitely

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_06]: it definitely affects you

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_01]: going back in time again

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I we have

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: we forgot to talk about how you left so I know it was

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_01]: it wasn't that it wasn't just like you woke up

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and you left there was many things that happened

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_01]: along the way but tell us about like the first

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: not so much even red flag

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but like when things just weren't working for you

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_04]: well the current compare and contrast of

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_04]: like your worlds must have

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_04]: it was interesting to see

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of go into one world and the other

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_04]: so you must have had that kind of

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_04]: hmm a lot to think about

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_06]: actually know I did not

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_06]: think I knew one was right

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_06]: and one was wrong and

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_06]: you know it's funny when you were saying you never got

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_06]: mad or whatever

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_06]: or you got you would have been mad

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_06]: and I didn't realize you're talking about now because when I was

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_06]: when I was young when I was in it

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean when I was 15 I went to Seattle

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_06]: because my mom kept yelling at me you're mad

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_06]: at me for leaving and I kept saying no I'm

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_06]: not this was our fight

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_06]: and so she sent me away to get rid of me because she thought I was being mean to her

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_06]: so I never

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_06]: like I just knew

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_06]: I just knew it was true I wasn't

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_06]: even when I left and I'll get to the story

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I was one of those people who left knowing it was true

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I knew he was the Messiah

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_06]: and I was failing I wasn't there

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_06]: there are many kids who grew up in it who know from a young age

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_06]: that it's crazy

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I wasn't that lucky I still

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_06]: firmly believed for a long time

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_06]: so you know going

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_06]: back and forth between the worlds was not easy

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_06]: right I remember I used to say to members growing

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_06]: up is hard enough growing up in this church makes it harder

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_06]: right so just living life

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_06]: in the world at school and then

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_06]: then going there on the weekends

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_06]: you know truth be told

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I got emotionally involved

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_06]: with someone boy my

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_06]: junior year where he kept

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_06]: trying to get me to date him

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_06]: and I kept trying to convert him

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_06]: but it was very intense and it was probably the beginning

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_06]: of me getting a little bit

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_06]: whatever and then

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_06]: and then

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_06]: summer between my junior and senior year

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_06]: my dad sent me to music camp to keep me away from the church

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and I became friends

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_06]: with people who for the first time known to me were queer

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_06]: and it was a huge sin

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_06]: on my church so I wrote to my mom and I'm like what do I do

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_06]: these people are wonderful what do I do

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_06]: and she writes back something to the effect of

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_06]: their evil their sinful their immoral

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_06]: you either can convert them or just stay the hell away

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_06]: from them probably didn't say hell

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_06]: and for the first time

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_06]: it didn't make sense to me now this is

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_06]: my first time ever alone away

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_06]: from home away from the church

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_06]: like with just kids

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and it didn't make sense

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_06]: because they're wonderful and they're loving and so

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't agree

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and we were like you write ours was

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_06]: we were literally taught that if

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_06]: we ever questioned anything it was Satan

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_06]: inside us

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_06]: right evil spirits and Satan

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_06]: trying to win us back from God

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_06]: and so

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm questioning or not agreeing and thinking oh my god

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm Satan Satan's in me

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Satan's in me and then I come home

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_06]: from music camp and moon has made a decree

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_06]: that only the blessed children can be

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_06]: with the true children

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_06]: so I'm not allowed near his kids anymore

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_06]: not allowed near his daughter and he did do that

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_06]: to keep me away

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_06]: I found out decades later

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_06]: that so proper one of my

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_06]: 16 year old blessed children friends

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_06]: was seduced by our Sunday school teacher

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_06]: and in order to keep anyone from noticing

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_06]: she spread rumors about me that I wanted to sleep

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_06]: with all the brothers and moon heard the rumors

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_06]: believed the rumors and made the decree

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_06]: to keep me away from these kids

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_06]: because I mean it was so funny because they were

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_06]: like wild and they would do all the

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_06]: they wore candies and tight jeans

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_06]: and they sang rock and roll music

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_06]: and I was like this little careful

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_06]: puritanical little kid

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_06]: who sang like church

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_06]: holy songs and Korean hymns and that's it

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_06]: but so he made this decree

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_06]: so I go into my last year of high school

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_06]: knowing I'm invaded by Satan

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_06]: because I'm questioning and knowing the Messiah

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_06]: knows I'm invaded by Satan

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and I already have like a lot of shame

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_06]: and sin inside me

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_06]: from my childhood

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_06]: before the church stuff that happened to me

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_06]: and living with my dad so I'm just

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_06]: shame shame shame shame shame

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and confused and so I

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_06]: make it I realize that I had joined

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_06]: my church as a child

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_06]: just followed my mom and so I'm thinking

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_06]: okay I'm 17 I need to pull back a little bit

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and make an adult decision to go back

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_06]: and never question again and even at that point

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_06]: I know I'm coming back I just need to like

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_06]: steadily on easy ground

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_06]: and I start hanging out

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_06]: on the weekends with my dad and hanging out

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_06]: with friends more at school and find

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_06]: more un-conditional love there

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_06]: than in the cult

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and start experimenting

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_06]: and experiment with alcohol

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_06]: and throw a party April 3rd, 1981

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_06]: I throw a party for my best friend

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_06]: then best friend a surprise

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_06]: birthday party and it's also for this other

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_06]: kid this boy named Adam because

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_06]: it happens to be his birthday too and I get

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_06]: really drunk and he kisses me and I kiss him back

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_06]: because I'm really drunk and I don't know what the hell

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_06]: else right and then I

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_06]: start dating him

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_06]: against everything I know

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_06]: and believe and all hell

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_06]: breaks loose and yeah and so

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_06]: that just goes on and on I can go into the saga

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_06]: of it and the summer

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_06]: ends after high school and I'm

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_06]: going off to college I'm going to Cornell

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_06]: he's staying home in New York City

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_06]: and I determine I will

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_06]: break up with him and go back to God because

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_06]: I have to and it's true

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_06]: and I don't

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_06]: and that leads me to a moment on

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Cornell surrounded by the big gorges

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_06]: and a moment on a bridge almost not making it

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_06]: across the bridge almost jumping over

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_06]: and then I just slowly as my brother

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_06]: says I don't leave I slowly drifted

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_06]: away my brother finished college

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_06]: sat my mom down and said I'm out

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I have yet to have still my mother that I'm out

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_06]: like I'm clearly out but I just

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_06]: I knew it was

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_06]: true I just didn't want to do it

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_06]: anymore so then I just

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_06]: proceeded to punish myself for years

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_06]: for doing that so

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I can go into that saga too but yeah

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_01]: with as much as you want to share but I know you battled

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_01]: with anorexia and

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it seemed like

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean one of the things I it was hard

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to read what I loved about your book because I felt like

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you brought us into

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the what it must have been like to go

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_01]: back and forth like for us

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_01]: it was a very different choice right like when we

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_01]: saw what was bad we're like we're done that was it

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_01]: there was no

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_01]: well there was a little bit of like I wasn't sure

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_01]: it was good or bad I knew I was leaving

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: but you you were there was a there was

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: so much going on in your in your mind

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like as a real gift to

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_01]: a reader to to understand what

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that confusion is like to want to

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_01]: want the world but also

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to feel so guilty about leaving what you

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: leaving what you believe to be true

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah so how did you eventually reconcile

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that or tell me so it's

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_06]: interesting so like my my

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_06]: first year at Cornell continues and I just

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_06]: am very tormented back and forth

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_06]: and I spent many

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_06]: late nights with a dear friend going what if it's right

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_06]: what if it's right what if it's right until he

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_06]: finally says what if it is right but it's not

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_06]: right for you and for whatever reason that was

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_06]: something I could hold on to but

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_06]: it's just when I have to tell you in the midst of that

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_06]: questioning back and forth Steve it Hassan

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_06]: I always say his name wrong he came

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_06]: and spoke at Cornell

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_06]: yes that was one of my questions

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah and we went and I was like

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_06]: you're wrong it's not evil it's

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_06]: good and he was like I can

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_06]: help you and yeah

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: have you seen him since he doesn't remember it

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_06]: but I do you what have you seen him since

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I saw him at it XLA conference my

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_06]: first XLA conference when I finally found

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_06]: us you know the community of cult survivors that

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I never knew was there and second gen

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and that's a whole different story we'll get to

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_06]: that okay come back to that yeah but so I

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_06]: never mentioned to him that like I

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_06]: don't know if you remember me but you told

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_06]: me I was like you know brainwashed

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and I told you you were evil

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_06]: in 1982 at that point yeah so

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_06]: so that happens

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_06]: and then so I just I mean again

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_06]: I know it's true I just

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_06]: don't want to do it I know he's the Messiah

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm one more person on a long

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_06]: list of people who have failed and sinned

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and broken God's heart

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_06]: and I can feel this I can feel

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_06]: it as even I speak it now like I don't

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_06]: believe that but it was

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_06]: it was heart wrenching and soul

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_06]: wrenching and I you know

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_06]: I almost jumped off the bridge

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I then I stopped eating I

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_06]: finally had sex with my boyfriend and then I stopped

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_06]: eating right and I'm not heavy now but I was

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_06]: more than 30 pounds less than

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and then my junior year I found

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_06]: my drug of my other drug of choice my second

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_06]: drug of choice after a messiah was cocaine

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_06]: because it makes you feel very powerful and

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_06]: thin and I have

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_06]: a dear friend here an author here who kind of took me

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_06]: under her wing while I was writing and she's like

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_06]: you might admit it was actually kind of

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_06]: an addiction because I did it every day

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_06]: I looked for it every day but I did a hell

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_06]: of a lot of cocaine including with my dad is

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_06]: probably the closest I was with my dad until

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_06]: he was dying and his friend

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_06]: who was a judge who had amazing cocaine

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_06]: amazing like there was one

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_06]: night he was going out and turns out of my

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_06]: right what are you guys doing we're like we're just hanging out

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and he takes up this huge bag and this huge

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_06]: tablespoon like big funks

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_06]: on the stone and he's like

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_06]: have fun kids and we tried to finish

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_06]: it and we could not

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah so there was that my junior

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_06]: year and then my senior year I just started

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_06]: getting in dysfunctional

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_06]: at least borderline abusive

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_06]: relationships and after

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_06]: college I got engaged to someone who drank

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_06]: with my dad and was really

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_06]: mean when he drank and

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_06]: someone pointed me in the

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_06]: direction of Alan on the 12 step program

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_06]: with those of us with our arms clasped around the alcoholic

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_06]: and I go to my first meeting

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_06]: thinking tell me if he's an alcoholic

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_06]: there's no way I would ever be with

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_06]: an alcoholic only to realize that

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_06]: my dad drank and drugged every day of my life

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_06]: or his life whatever

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_06]: my grandmother was addicted to everything

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_06]: my grandfather his father was in AA for five years

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and every year my father

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_06]: would get him to drink on Christmas

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_06]: I always think of my grandfather going back on the day after Christmas

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_06]: on one day again

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_06]: and oh and I was raised in a cult

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_06]: that I just managed to just

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_06]: not mention

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_06]: my sophomore year when I was not eating

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_06]: and very not okay

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_06]: they put me in therapy and I never mentioned

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_06]: the church once because I knew

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_06]: she would judge me for it

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_06]: the moon and the unification church

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_06]: was so reviled

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_06]: it's like as reviled as maybe as Keith is now

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_06]: right maybe he wasn't

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_06]: in the beginning until

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_06]: your story came out and thank you for everything

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_06]: but moon was so reviled

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_06]: that I knew that if I told this therapist

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_06]: that I grew up in the church

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_06]: she would you know judge me for it

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_06]: so I'm literally there

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_06]: not a year since starting to leave

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_06]: not talking about it

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_06]: that's how I get through things

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_01]: for more background on what brought us here

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: check out my

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_01]: page turning memoir

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_01]: it's called scarred the true story of how I escaped next year

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01]: the cult that bound my life

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01]: it's available on Amazon, Audible and at most bookstores

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and if you want to see that story

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_01]: in streaming form you can watch both seasons

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: of the vow on HBO

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: okay

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_01]: reality check

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_01]: school is back in session and I'd be lying if I said

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't feeling the pressure

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_01]: from new pickup schedules

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to football season for both kids

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: picking up again keeping track of everyone's

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_01]: location and schedule is a full-time job

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_04]: but you know what's keeping me calm

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_04]: in the chaos?

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Life 360

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_01]: is a family connection and safety app that lets you

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_01]: track your family members locations in real time

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it helps me coordinate

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_01]: communicate and create peace of mind

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_04]: forget the constant where are you

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[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Nipi used life 360's landing notification

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_01]: which sent him an alert the second of my plane

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_04]: touchdown because I had to know

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I also love linking it with tile to keep track

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_01]: of my car keys no more searching now I just

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_01]: ring it from the app and find them within seconds

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_04]: life 360 gives me a peace of mind

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[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_04]: knowing where everyone in my family is

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_04]: at any given time yes please

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_04]: anything to help me decrease that mental load

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess we both have a mental load babe

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not just me

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_03]: just realizing that aren't you

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[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_01]: out there trying to get the kids back

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_01]: in school trying to get them into sports

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[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_02]: enjoy break times over

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_02]: people let's get back to this episode

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_02]: of a little bit culty it's a good one

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_01]: so where did a

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Alan on take you and like where did you land

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_01]: spiritually like how did you eventually heal

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_01]: through all of this you I mean obviously

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you told somebody eventually that you were

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_01]: in a cult how did you how did you

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_06]: come to terms with that yeah

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_06]: you know I remember being one time in my

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Alan on meeting and someone said

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I came into the rooms and everyone was

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_06]: smiling and I was thinking oh my god

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_06]: or moonies like that was what it was

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_06]: like

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_06]: it was that was

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_06]: okay so I left starting in

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_06]: 1981

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_06]: it's been a long time I crawled

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_06]: into the rooms and Alan on in 86

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_06]: it's been a long time

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_06]: when I first left I couldn't think about

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_06]: God because if I thought about God it was

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_06]: the God of my childhood and I deserve to die

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_06]: when I when I can go deep

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_06]: in therapy into my deepest

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_06]: lies and gunk inside me there is still

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_06]: it's mostly gone now

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_06]: but a little bit of I should have died I should

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_06]: have jumped I don't deserve to be here

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean that's how deeply ingrained it was

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_06]: me but so Alan on gave me

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_06]: the ability to believe

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_06]: in a power greater than myself whatever

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_06]: that is I now

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_06]: believe in love it started

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_06]: me on the journey of

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_06]: self-care self-love but I mean

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_06]: it you know it just

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_06]: took a long time to realize what being the

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_06]: child of an alcoholic and raising a cult

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_06]: and all that did to me it's been

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_06]: a lot of therapy

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_06]: a lot of trauma therapy

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_06]: EMDR therapy

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_06]: IFS therapy

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_06]: people say like the layers of an onion

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_06]: and I don't think my brain is an onion if I don't know

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_06]: if you've ever had a ball of yarn that you

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_06]: or a skein of yarn that you forgot to make into

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_06]: a ball and then it just becomes this

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_06]: like thing that takes three days to unravel

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_06]: mm-hmm that's the

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_06]: that's my brain that's the complex

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_06]: trauma in my brain because it's all

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_06]: you know I'm pretty certain

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I was molested as a child and then I end up

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_06]: in a periodontal cult like it just it'll end

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_06]: with my dad and it just

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_06]: nicknamed for me was slut until I finally asked

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_06]: him to stop you know it just is all

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_06]: multi-layered

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_06]: and so it's been

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_06]: a lot of different

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_06]: things positive psychology

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_06]: neuroplasticity

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I do a lot of work finding

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_06]: good believing the good retraining my brain

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I do believe

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_06]: in love I do believe in self-love

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_06]: if I have my this or my it says first

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_06]: most always love yourself first most always

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_06]: that's the tattoo on one side of my body

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_06]: I've learned

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_06]: to do that despite

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_06]: how I was taught not

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_06]: to I mean when my mom left we were told

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_06]: we were lucky and I knew that when I missed her

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I was sinful so I learned

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_06]: I had to relearn to feel and

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_06]: feel pain and feel anger

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_06]: and acknowledge the terror

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_06]: and you know just

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_06]: acknowledge I you know my

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_06]: my brain can have a hard time even thinking my child did

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_06]: the stuff so I know

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_06]: there's a memoir but yet and so it's

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_06]: just kind of learning to accept that and own

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_06]: that and

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_06]: it's been this process of

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_06]: retraining myself

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_06]: to love myself

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_06]: and that's firmly what I believe in

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_06]: so yeah but it's oh it goes

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah so I'm Iksa

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_06]: international cultic studies association

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_06]: right community of cult survivors

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_06]: when I left in the

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_06]: early 80s I called turkey I did it

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_06]: alone I had no help I had no support

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_06]: it took a long time for me to get

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_06]: into therapy and even talk about it

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_06]: and

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_06]: then when I when the book was coming out I met

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_06]: someone Twitter who sent me to Iksa and I

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_06]: walked in I was like oh my god these people who get it

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_06]: and then I found second gens those of us born into

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_06]: race and

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_06]: who's our brains are so similar

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_06]: different cult different country our brains are so similar

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_06]: based on what was done how it was

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_06]: contained and controlled when it was supposed to be developing

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_06]: and then my therapy

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_06]: was like damn

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_06]: what they did to me

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_06]: the ability to see

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_06]: you know I have a second

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_06]: friend who taught me say that's the cult talking

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_06]: right the ability to see how still

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I know so much better and I can

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_06]: still gut response

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_06]: in that program way I've done

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_06]: so many podcasts and I was this

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_06]: morning I was like oh my god

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm nervous I'm thinking I have to be

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_06]: perfect like

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't do that that much anymore

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_06]: or I don't even I don't realize I'm doing it

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and people call me out on it all the time

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_06]: right so it's it's a

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_06]: daily

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_06]: joyful battle because our

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_06]: joyful journey I have so much joy and so much

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_06]: love but I see so much how my

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_06]: brain still can react

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_06]: in first part

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_06]: what was done to it what it was taught

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_06]: and what I had to do to survive

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_06]: the craziness that it was

[01:00:54] [SPEAKER_06]: was just kind of

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_04]: it

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_04]: so what are the how are the reactions to your book then

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_06]: you want to hear my favorite

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_06]: one-star review on Amazon

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_06]: if I was

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_06]: that whiny I wouldn't have any friends

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_06]: that's my favorite one-star review

[01:01:11] because

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_05]: I showed you all the like

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_06]: crazy insecurities

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_06]: well maybe didn't get to the end maybe

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_06]: that's what it is all the crazy

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_06]: insecurities in my head

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_06]: all the like self doubt

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_06]: and self loathing and you know

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_06]: that is a

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_06]: that is definitely a remnant

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_06]: of growing up

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_06]: that way is you know the incredible

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I did not know any of this was there

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_06]: but the incredible self loathing

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_06]: that I had and self-revulsion that I was taught

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_06]: um

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_06]: you know and you know the ability

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_06]: the inability to really think for myself

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_06]: and keep my own opinion and have boundaries

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_06]: and all of that I'm like I'm 60

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_06]: years old and I'm getting it

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_06]: you know it's just been an incredible

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_06]: journey because I had none they were permeable

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_06]: and non-existent

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_06]: when I was little

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_06]: so there's that wonderful review

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_06]: I will say that

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_06]: it is helpful

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_06]: to the second gen community

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_06]: and that I mean I will

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_06]: say here I will send a free copy

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_06]: of a pdf to any second gen

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_06]: who asks me

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_06]: because it's about helping people

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_06]: if I telling my story helps anyone else find their

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_06]: own way and their own self love

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_06]: and being able to call out the lies

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_06]: in their head then it's all worth it

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_06]: so I know that you know my

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_06]: you know moments when I'm like

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I need to do more it needs to be bigger

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_06]: it needs to I'm like Lisa you have help

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_06]: you've like changed lives and I get

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_06]: people who reach out to me and not just

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_06]: called survivors but other people who have suffered stuff

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_06]: so um so there's

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_06]: that um you know it

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_06]: was yeah I've

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_06]: been at church so when I was a making Kelly

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_06]: the church made a statement

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_06]: something about how um

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_06]: it was sad that I was so affected by

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_06]: my parents divorce but it's very easy to leave

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_06]: the church and then

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_06]: actually weirdly

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_06]: many years later another second

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_06]: gen wanted me to speak at a

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_06]: church center at Belvedere another church center

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_06]: entire town of New York for the parents and

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_06]: the kids because I could maybe help

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_06]: them like reconcile

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_06]: and get along like understand each other better

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and so they need to get permission

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_06]: for me to speak and I'm like

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not sure you want me to do this but I met with

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_06]: the PR person of the church

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_06]: who had made the comment for making Kelly

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_06]: who admitted she had never read the book

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_06]: and then I

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_06]: gave her a copy she asked me to sign it

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I did and then I never heard from her

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_06]: again so it's been totally ignored by

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_06]: the church like I know even

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean Injun knows the book is out there

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_06]: she's never mentioned it to me

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_06]: I saw her just I actually saw her

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_06]: the week before how to become a cult leader

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_06]: aired and I don't think I will see her again

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_06]: because after a week after I saw her I was

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_06]: in how to become a cult leader

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_06]: but uh so it's

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_06]: the church has ignored it

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: now your your book came out like six years

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: ago which is kind of overlap

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: nicely with the cult investigation boom

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: that took a hold during the pandemic

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_01]: has the reactions to your

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: book and your background changed do you find

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: like I think you because you came out

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: when was this book written

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: can't remember 2018

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_06]: 2018 yeah so be so

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that was like before the vow and

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah for a lot of this sort of big push

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: of what we

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about on the podcast the golden age of

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: cult awareness has things changed

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: are people more like intrigued

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and like it's cooler now or is it

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: what's the difference so

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean I think my book has

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_06]: stayed pretty well under the radar

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_06]: unfortunately and maybe this will help

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_06]: it get out there um

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_06]: not that I need to sell more books but that I

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_06]: need to spread a message

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_06]: um and uh

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_06]: so

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah I mean and I was I was

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_06]: like hot and heavy doing readings

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and speaking and all that and then

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_06]: the pandemic happened and that

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_06]: all went away and then I got sick and

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_06]: that went away further so uh so yeah

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_06]: it hasn't you know it has

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_06]: been it has been shopped in Hollywood but

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_06]: didn't get very far I like to say I like to proudly

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_06]: say that Miley Cyrus knows my name because

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_06]: she read the book which is really cool but

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_06]: then there the cleanest quote she

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_06]: gave to the producer I was working with at the time was

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_06]: what was so bad about it if she didn't get out

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_06]: so we realized we did not explain

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_06]: it well enough but um yeah

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_06]: it's um so it hasn't I don't know

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_06]: that it's made a difference I just

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean that's I've been in

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_06]: three

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_06]: documentaries so far and

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_06]: you know hoping for the right ones that will

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_06]: do more of the good that needs to happen

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_06]: for me it's about a message of hope

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_06]: let me be real like I can talk about

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_06]: the evils and the horrors

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_06]: that other people are better talking about the

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_06]: you know the real the politics and the money

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_06]: and a lot of that stuff but I can talk about what

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_06]: it does to your brain but my

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_06]: message that I really want to get across

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_06]: is hope there is hope you are not damaged

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_06]: there is hope you can get out you can be

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_06]: better you can feel better it is hard

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_06]: it's a journey but it is

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_06]: so good and you can like I really

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_06]: I found myself saying recently

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm in the midst of an incredible love affair

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_06]: with myself and that

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_06]: for me to be able to say that wanted

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_06]: to be able to feel that is amazing and to say it

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_06]: out loud without the voices going oh my god

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_05]: you sound like an idiot don't do that you

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_05]: should have talked too much about yourself

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah but can you enjoy

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: can you enjoy an omelet

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_05]: can I enjoy an omelet

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_06]: well you know since the cancer I've gotten

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_06]: quite a vegan

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_06]: okay but other than but I can eat

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_06]: yes I can eat

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_06]: when I was pregnant

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_06]: with my first child I gained 50 pounds

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_06]: try imagine that it was really funny

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I was almost 5 foot at the point

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_06]: so it looked really funny when I

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_06]: went from about 100 pounds to 150 pounds

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah but now I can eat

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I yeah the anorexia as my

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_06]: my older child used to say I do a really good job

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_06]: the only thing I said about food I would like

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_06]: or I would grab one side of my

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_06]: stomach and I'd say this is my first child

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_06]: on the other side of my stomach and be like this is my second child

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_06]: there you go

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_06]: but yeah no I again

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_06]: something I didn't

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I bottomed out on and I was able to find a way out

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_06]: of so yeah good well I like

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_04]: the message of hope yeah unfortunately

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_04]: that's not clickbait these days but

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: no I know right

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Lisa has been such a pleasure chatting with you

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate you being

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: flexible with our schedule and making it happen

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think your book is wonderful and

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I wish you all the success in

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: your new mission

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_06]: my new mission to save the world

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_06]: thank you it's been thank you

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_06]: it's great to meet you likewise

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_06]: really great thank you for sharing I've been looking forward

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_06]: to this and this has been truly wonderful I need to

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_06]: ask you questions but I guess that's what this is all

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: about so well we could just chat on the phone

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: from one perfectionist to another I will say you did

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: a great job and you feel very proud of yourself

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_06]: one recovering perfectionist

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_06]: yes I do know

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: you like what you hear please do give us a rating

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: a review and subscribe on iTunes

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: or wherever you listen every little bit

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: helps us get this cult awareness content

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: out there smash that subscribe button

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you know what to do

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: well I hope that you all enjoyed

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: our time with Lisa as much as we did

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: fascinating conversation

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: look for her book to the moon and back

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: a childhood under the influence

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: if you want to buy a copy go to Lisa Cohn

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: writes that's L-I-S-A-K-O-H-N

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: writes.com

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and buy it there because she'll sign it for you

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: it'll also come from a local bookshop rather than

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazon you can also get a copy of her

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: audiobook at LisaCohnRights.com

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_04]: and if anyone invites you to

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Mass in the Square Garden for a wedding

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: well let Lisa know she might have some tips

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: of where to sit you've been warned and how to escape

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: after the vows the vows

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: the vows

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: it all comes full circle

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: don't forget to sign up for our newsletter

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: at a little bit culty.com

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[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and buy stuff from them because it helps keep

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[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: thanks y'all thanks bye

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_07]: music

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_04]: thanks for listening everyone

[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_04]: we're heading over to patreon.com

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_04]: slash a little bit culty now

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_04]: to discuss this episode

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_04]: in the meantime dear listener please remember

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_04]: this podcast is solely for

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_04]: general informational educational and entertainment purposes

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_04]: it's not intended as a

[01:09:22] [SPEAKER_04]: substitute for real medical legal

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_04]: or therapeutic advice for cult recovery

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_04]: resources and to learn more

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_04]: about seeking safely in this culty world

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_04]: check out a little bit culty.com

[01:09:32] [SPEAKER_04]: slash culty resources and don't miss

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Sarah's TED talk called how cult

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_04]: literate are you great stuff

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit culty is a trace 120

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: production executive produced by Sarah

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: with producer Will Rutherford at citizens of sound

[01:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and our co-creator and show chaplain

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_01]: slash bodyguard Jess

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Temple Tardy and our theme song

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: cultivated is by John Bryant