Toxic All-Around: Melanie Hunt & Kim Shore on Abuse in Canadian Gymnastics

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access. To powder skiing legacy. To independent spirit. North where easy to get to. Meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

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[00:00:47] We're not doctors, not psychologists, we're certainly not the AP that's associated press for those of you listening at home. We're two non-experts. We found ourselves making a little podcast that people happen to like. Okay? Yeah. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here.

[00:01:11] And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC, a podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.

[00:01:21] We've been there and back again. A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult, and then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge. The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow now in its second season.

[00:01:36] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped next to him, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:42] Look at us, couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe. We got to schedule that that's separate.

[00:01:56] So it's two days? We got to hang out? We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium, still on that journey. And we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:07] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level market.

[00:02:19] This stuff really is everywhere. The cultiverse just keeps on expanding, and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com

[00:02:36] Hello, hello. How you doing? Welcome back to the pod everybody. Are you talking to me or are you on the phone? No, no, this is me welcoming people to the podcast. Like, hey guys, what is life and what is reality?

[00:03:01] And with us, Nip, it's kind of all merged. Hey, so you know how like other podcasts have like a little like sound thing and becomes there? Like Whitney Cummings? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:12] Gary Vanden Schruck has this thing that goes, like, and he tells his point, ours is going to be me rather than my ice. Yeah, yeah, that's a real, I'm going to run that by the rest of the team. We can perfect it. See what they say.

[00:03:32] There's ways you can make that sound appealing. It's also kind of like nails on a chalkboard is like, you know what nails on a chalkboard and ice in my cup aren't even bed partners. Wait, let's let the audience decide, Chelly.

[00:03:42] In the reality of our lives, we are in the thick of the vow season two. Remind me what's the vow?

[00:03:50] We watched episode four last night and I feel like this is groundbreaking footage that the filmmakers put together in terms of really showing what it looks like when people in this case, Nancy wakes up to what she's participated in.

[00:04:09] And I can't believe they caught it all on film. You might feel differently about her. What stuck out to you the most? Oh, wow. What do I start? I just forgot how abused Lauren was. It was reliving that awareness again. Yeah.

[00:04:24] And recognizing I never actually knew Lauren Salisman the person because when I met her she was always under his spell and under his abuse. So I never really got to know her outside of those shackles. Heartbreaking.

[00:04:36] The other thing that really, because you know me, I'm always rooting for people to wake up. Is it how could anybody watch that and deny his extensive abuse to all the women?

[00:04:47] Like there's people in as we know who are still loyal who are saying but it was consensual and it was just a symbol. And men do this all the time and like this is just a sorority. It is undeniable now.

[00:04:59] I don't know why I made that into a song. As you all know, we are packing further on Patreon.

[00:05:04] We are going to do a vow wrap up probably at the end of the six episodes over here in our main feed and have some great guest interviews in both platforms. Until then I'm very excited is not the right word.

[00:05:17] I am grateful to have found two people to speak to you about a subject that we've been trying to figure out how to tackle now for a while. Yes, it's somewhat in our experiences right now because our kids are going through sports.

[00:05:31] Our guests today want you to know that there's a lot of culty stuff in the culture of high performance gymnastics. And they have some red flags to raise for parents who are raising student athletes in any sport.

[00:05:43] And it is something that we're keen to learn more about since we are literally up to our ears in sports specifically football right now. And it looks like we might raise a couple of multi sport athletes unless Ace decides to pursue heavy metal drumming, which could happen.

[00:05:55] And with a name like Ace that that picks you. Ace aims really could go a lot of ways. But as a mom this particular episode was particularly deep in my heart as a I have the motivation to speak about this subject and our guests do so with eloquence.

[00:06:18] And grace and we're very, very grateful for them. And they're clearly still learning about what's going on as well.

[00:06:24] Kim Shore is the founder of gymnast for change Canada, a collective that emerged on the heels of the Me Too movement in 2017 after several former elite athletes publicly shared their experience of abuse and gymnastics.

[00:06:37] Together they realized the power of connecting with fellow survivors and in breaking the silence and the cycle of abuse.

[00:06:41] Since then, gymnast for change Canada has grown into a community with hundreds of survivors and supporters who share the common goal of eradicating abuse from the sport that they love and making gymnastics safe and joyful for everyone. The scariest thing about gymnastics should be the balance beam, right?

[00:06:56] Kim joined us along with fellow gymnast for change advocate Melanie Hunt, who is also a former Canadian national gymnast and someone who experienced horrible psychological physical and sexual abuses at the hands of her coach during her 15 year gymnastics career.

[00:07:11] Her story is included in the new documentary titled, quote, broken inside the toxic culture of Canadian gymnast. So we recorded with Mel and Kim before the dot came out to talk with us about the darker side of the sport.

[00:07:22] And while this isn't our typical culty topic, their respective journeys follow the arc of so many of our guests. I think it goes to show that culty isn't just MLMs and self-help gurus or off-grid ashrams.

[00:07:32] It's right next door. You think you're getting into one thing and it's actually something else. And if you're anything like Melanie or Kim, you get out, get loud, get healed and maybe find yourself on a new mission.

[00:07:41] Kim and Melanie chat with us about their respective experiences, the similarities between gymnastics and cult life, and then city ways that coercive control grooming and psychological abuse can turn even something like elite gymnast into a culty hellscape. Total fucking hellscape.

[00:07:57] So just no dear listener, this conversation will dive into disturbing and sensitive topics. So please listen with discretion and as always see our website at littlebitculty.com for free resources. Without further ado, here's our conversation with Kim Shore and Melanie Hunt of Gymnastics for Change Canada.

[00:08:12] Hi, Mel and Kim. Welcome to Little Bit Culty. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, great to be here. So Nipi and I first connected with you a few months ago when we first moved to Atlanta and a lot has happened since.

[00:08:34] We're in a bit of our own personal whirlwind. And I was remembering that Kim, I originally connected with you through Josh Block who made the Escaping Nixxiom CBC podcast and he connected us over email.

[00:08:46] And I'm wondering what was it about your connection with him and then with us that made it seem like being on our podcast would be a good fit. Let's start there. Okay, sure. I think when I was listening to Josh's production of the Nixxiom Escaping Nixxiom podcast,

[00:09:01] I was so struck by the similarities between your experience and what it was like in some of the more extreme gymnastics centers around the country.

[00:09:12] And I was dealing a lot with CBC at the time for some other things and Josh and I were connected and I asked him a few questions and he said, you know what? I agree with you.

[00:09:24] There's some real coercive controls, a dominance model going on in gymnastics coaching.

[00:09:31] You should really talk to Sarah and Nipi about their experience and really I was looking for potential healing mechanisms for our community because we've heard from over 500 gymnasts who are really struggling with the residue from their damaging experiences in the sport. Great.

[00:09:50] I'm so glad that he connected us and truthfully a lot of people reach out to us to either be on the show or share their experience or just to have an ear because they're seeing the correlations in their own lives with all sorts of different topics and sports and religions and all sorts of things as we've been learning on this little bit culty journey.

[00:10:11] Yeah, and particularly a lot of people don't know what they're looking at and immediately your story popped out as something is like, there it is again. Yeah. The course of control aspect so it was certainly something we were interested in exploring with you.

[00:10:22] If you could just bring our listeners up to speed, Kim tell us just the brief version of your story and how you got to being on this podcast with us tonight. Sure. Well, it starts back in the 80s I'm afraid to say.

[00:10:35] I was a gymnast in the 80s and early 90s.

[00:10:38] I had a mostly positive experience with a few years of really exceptionally harsh coaching verbally and emotionally abusive, I would say I felt very isolated at the time and thought it was just me fast forward 25 years and I hosted a little reunion for all of my group mates from the 80s.

[00:10:58] And I was absolutely blown over by how many of them said, oh no, I was the one that was hated by the coach. I was the one that always got yelled at.

[00:11:07] I was the one that was forcibly overstretched and overtraining all the time and we realized that it was all of us, but we were so siloed in our own shame and our own, I guess lack of understanding that others were going through the same thing that even though we trained like 30 hours a week together, we didn't realize that.

[00:11:24] And yet we were also incredibly close because we felt, I think now we're looking back that we were in survival mode the whole time. And that wasn't my whole experience.

[00:11:33] I had some wonderful coaches fast forward yet again another 20 some odd years and I had a daughter who desperately wanted to do gymnastics. She begged me and begged me to put her in and kept refusing because I wasn't sure what what the right decision was.

[00:11:48] And she one day yelled at me, I'm tired of trying other sports. Why won't you teach me a cartwheel? I know you know how, mommy.

[00:11:55] And so I finally I did and my and she learned it in three seconds and I looked at my husband and he looked at me and I was like, yeah, okay, she's kind of like her body's born for this and she wants to do it.

[00:12:07] So who are we to stay say no to that and block her from from that opportunity. And I had every optimism that gymnastics had really changed it had been 25 years since I even looked in a gym.

[00:12:18] So we did some reference checking found what we thought was going to be a good gym and it was wonderful for about the first three years absolutely wonderful under a particular coach. But I could see what was coming and it kept me up at night.

[00:12:31] I started formulating plans on how I could assist how I could maybe change things before my daughter and her friends got to the higher level.

[00:12:40] Maybe I could help the current high level teenage gymnast that were there and struggling and some of them are reaching out to me and I just couldn't do it.

[00:12:49] I didn't realize I was battling an archaic sport entrenched with child abuse course of control and a control dominance model of coaching that hadn't really changed since probably 1976 when we all were wowed and Nadia Khan each.

[00:13:08] And it's even worse than what I saw now to well that was about 2016 you know fast forward to 2022 and I'm hearing horrific stories and worse stories of particular cultures within some of the gyms in Canada that I had no idea it was as bad as it was.

[00:13:31] It's interesting a lot of those tennis gymnastics skating a lot of those kind of I wouldn't say they're niche and they're pretty popular but those sports always had a pretty extreme feel to them in order to pressure to perform.

[00:13:46] Now I played football in college and I relate to your story a lot and a lot of what I witnessed or what lot of what your story went on in sports with those in particular seem to have a really really it seems like rigid structure to perform in them even just as a superficial spectator of it.

[00:14:04] Yes, and I think you're identifying the sports that are really based on child athletes.

[00:14:09] Yes, and there are an aesthetic sports so the entertainment value for for what the children are supposed to produce is is a pretty high standard you know we are taught there is no crying in gymnastics.

[00:14:25] You go out there even if your ankle is three times its normal size and black and blue will tape that thing up and you go out there and you put a smile on your face and carry stroke. Carry stroke. Absolutely. Carry stroke I remember.

[00:14:37] Absolutely that was the most horrific thing I've ever witnessed and I knew it at the time. I don't know the reference can someone explain it?

[00:14:43] So carry stroke I think was the 96 Olympics in Atlanta right yeah she well let you tell you probably know it better than I did.

[00:14:50] Well she completed her first vault and injured her ankle, and she could hobbled off the mat and they all thought that the gold medal team award for the Olympics was riding on her doing a second vault that she didn't fall on because she had fallen on the first one.

[00:15:10] And so without any questions asked she was told to get back to the end of the runway and redo her fault.

[00:15:17] And you know she did so in a death defying manner because at any time one little slip of a hand those kids can land on their necks break their necks land on their heads.

[00:15:28] Luckily she didn't and I mean that speaks to the resilience and the ferocity of these young kids doing this sport and frankly the robotic training that most of us had to put aside pain.

[00:15:40] So in the short term it can work quite well that you're able to execute under extreme pain and pressure but the long term repercussions of that can be really serious. Right. And she stuck it too. Yeah she did.

[00:15:54] She stuck it and then she came out on the awards podium an hour or two later with like a full on cast on her ankle and carried by her coach. And again I mean you want to talk about a little bit culty.

[00:16:07] Bella Caroli the way you know he made that whole thing that whole spectacle became about him and celebrating his coaching abilities and his magnanimous character and that was her coach. Yes.

[00:16:18] And she carried her out in his arms smiling beaming look at this what this kid accomplished but it was really an awful thing.

[00:16:26] And the whole process was loud and you know there was a press tour after it was a very big celebrated event as a mother like my blood's boiling right now inside.

[00:16:36] Yeah I think the audience in the general public didn't know what to make of it and they were just so happy that you know they thought she was fine enough to compete.

[00:16:46] And I think everybody in the general public thinks well a child wouldn't be forced to compete if they weren't OK. But I think what we're learning is that's just not the case.

[00:16:56] Well I remember being she's tough and having all that you know positive affirmation for that at the time.

[00:17:02] Which goes on the sort of the foundational problems and understanding from prepping for this episode of the performance at all costs concept which is makes everything right for abuse which we're going to get to in a moment before we

[00:17:15] get to Melanie Kim was there anything else you wanted to say about your trajectory to hear.

[00:17:19] Sure I just would add that my experience my daughter's club and then joining a provincial level board of directors for gymnastics and having oversight there and feeling completely disempowered frankly to make change so trying

[00:17:34] to join the Canadian gymnastics board of directors and I was on that board for three years and I've never felt less powerful or less able to lead change then being on the National Sport Organization board.

[00:17:47] So because decisions were being made at that level that I just could not live with as as a mother and as a former gymnast knowing what realities some of those athletes were going through and just being sickened by the culture of the sport in our country

[00:18:03] that I left and joined with some other athletes and we were realizing that actually the athlete voice has a tremendous amount of power.

[00:18:12] We just haven't used our voices ever before especially in gymnastics we have been extremely silent barely even able to speak to each other about our pain and mental health struggles and things like that so yeah we started an organization called gymnast for change Canada.

[00:18:30] We sent an open letter out to the community and we started with 70 signatures and within months a couple of three months we were up to 500 signatures and now we're over that and we've been calling on our federal government to enact a judicial level inquiry investigation if you will third party independent from sport as far away

[00:18:56] as possible and we're still trying to support and is close to a human rights investigation that we can get because we believe there's criminal activity to uncover along with all of the emotional and psychological abuse. That's what this feels like yeah a human rights thing.

[00:19:12] And I want to get more into what's happening now in the state of the government and what's not happening at the end and before I do I want to make sure bring in Melanie because I want to hear your story.

[00:19:22] I'm trying to comment all the things I'm hearing in terms of the correlations between your story and a little bit culties but specifically the thing I'm hearing the most is that is this this culture of toxic positivity where you have to keep smiling and you can't share it's

[00:19:37] kind of weakness that you share what's actually going on and then you don't talk to each other about it.

[00:19:44] So the siloedness is a real problem and that's something that I know Nipi and I totally relate to because you just couldn't share it because if you shared up to your coaches you'd be in trouble or gaslit if you shared down to

[00:19:55] I know you guys I know you didn't have people beneath you but we had people beneath us in the pyramid structure if we shared any upset it would be bad leadership and creating doubt in people we're supposed to be lifting up and everything's great and the tools work and we're all happy

[00:20:06] blah blah blah and then we all know that's bullshit. But anyway Melanie how did you meet Kim what's the connection here and tell us your Coles notes slash Cliff notes of being here today.

[00:20:17] Yeah so I started gymnastics at four my parents put me in because I was pretty active and was doing somersaults in our backyard anyway so they thought it'd be a good idea to put me in an organized sport and then at seven I was asked to move up to called pre elite and it

[00:20:35] was training 25 hours a week at that time I was then coached by well just called them my abusers it was a married couple and yeah I actually ended up moving with them to a different city in Ontario they left my hometown in Sarnia moved

[00:20:51] to Burlington for two years and at the time I was already on the national team so I moved with them I lived with them for two years then we moved back to Sarnia and I continued training with them until I was 19.

[00:21:04] So how old were you when you moved in with them 12 how were your parents with that. So at the time. My dad was hesitant and I remember it took him two weeks to finally give me a yes.

[00:21:16] I was in grade seven at the time and I had to finish out the school year so two weeks and then summer started and he finally allowed me to go but in retrospect I mean that was kind of the start of it all in a way because I was

[00:21:33] living with my coaches and the control just got out of control. Can you tell us a little bit about that like what type of control was being exerted.

[00:21:43] Yes so I always say to people like I was abused in every way but what sticks with me the most is the psychological control that he exercised over me.

[00:21:54] When I left the gym eventually with his voice in my head constantly I couldn't make a decision for myself because he made all the decisions for me in terms of makeup how I should style my hair what kind of clothes I should wear what gym suits looked best on me it was it

[00:22:12] was everything it wasn't just gymnastics anymore it was my personal life.

[00:22:16] So yeah it's hard to explain to people who have never been an occult before I'm glad you guys can like actually appreciate you know what that would have been like because it was exhausting and unfortunately this is kind of going a bit further but the line crossed in sexual ways

[00:22:34] and it was a very hard kind of situation to navigate because I felt like I had to always keep my male coach happy and pleased in you know I could sense what type of mood he was in just by looking at how he walked from the car to the door of the gym

[00:22:50] and it was my responsibility to make him feel better cheer him up but at the same time my female coach hated me for it outwardly hated me for the fact that he would spend more time with me he would drive me to and from school every day

[00:23:05] I think she knew that there was more going on than that and so it was very hard because I still wanted to continue with gymnastics I was on the national team I wanted to go to the Olympics but I felt very trapped in this toxic relationship and world where I wasn't happy

[00:23:22] and gymnastics stopped being fun but I felt like it was something I had to do and I had to keep him happy and somehow tiptoe around the fact that I knew my female coach hated me and was outward about it it was not good

[00:23:37] So I have a question about optics here what is the incentive for them is the incentive for them to help you get to the Olympics or was the incentive there to have you to abuse you like what did you feel was motivating them

[00:23:50] That's a great question that's something that I try and process every day with my counselor at the time it felt like I was special he made me feel like I was special and you know I was talented and I could get to the Olympics

[00:24:05] I mean I have other examples of things that don't have anything to do with gymnastics so I mean one Valentine's Day he gave me a Valentine's Day card and on the front of it it said be my Valentine

[00:24:18] and then I was also given a letter that you know listed all the reasons why he loved me and I remember the first time he told me he loved me I was 10 years old and so it was very strange because on one hand he was very much my coach and I was very much his gymnast but then on the other side of it it crossed the line into this inappropriate relationship that should have never gotten to that

[00:24:44] This is the golden age of cult recovery the more we speak up and share our stories the more we realize we are not alone your voice and your story can empower others this is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I got out movement learn more at I got out.org

[00:25:11] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp What are your self-care non-negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep I mean that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it?

[00:25:24] Well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside in nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it

[00:25:34] Nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded

[00:25:40] Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority

[00:25:47] I get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need

[00:25:54] And sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean? Thanks Therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give Better Help a try

[00:26:04] It's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist And switch therapists anytime for no additional charge look even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it

[00:26:19] But when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever Never skip therapy day with better help visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month that's better help HELP.com slash culty

[00:26:34] The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family but everything wasn't as it seemed I just had a 12 year old boy still appeared asking for help he's emaciated he's got tape around his legs Ruby Frankie is his mom's name

[00:26:52] Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives listen to infamous wherever you get your podcasts

[00:27:05] Listen if we ask you anything that you don't want to talk about please please tell us of course I'm always looking for the correlations between course of control and culty aspects

[00:27:15] The thing I wanted to highlight that it seems as pretty clear is that he was grooming you and it seems like the grooming started right from the beginning

[00:27:23] Even before it was sexual and even just to like make you feel special which is a huge red flag for us now how old were you when he crossed the line sexually

[00:27:33] So when I was in Burlington around 12 this doesn't seem sexual like I'll let you guys be the deciders

[00:27:41] My coaches were watching a movie with their kids in their room and they asked if I wanted to join and so I went to go sit on the floor in front of the bed

[00:27:51] And he lifted up the blanket and offered for me to come into the bed and watch it under the covers and so in my gut it felt wrong because my parents had never asked me to do that before

[00:28:04] But I was 12 and I thought you know they're not going to ask me to do something bad so this is just maybe something my family doesn't do but their family does

[00:28:13] I'm gonna do it. That was the first time I ever ignored my gut sort of you know that feeling where you're like this isn't right

[00:28:21] And then shortly after that we came back from a competition in Europe and over there there's a lot of kissing that goes on you know to say hello goodbye congratulations

[00:28:31] It's on the cheek it's you know like a two one on each cheek whatever so then he started to have all of his gymnasts do that at the start and end of every practice

[00:28:40] Well one day he says to me we're in line to do this kissing you know tradition and he says how is it that your dad is so lucky that he gets to kiss you on the lips

[00:28:50] It would kind of took me aback and like his wife was standing right beside him and there was you know a line behind me of other girls waiting so I just I kind of just did it

[00:29:00] And then from then on every time we said hello good morning goodbye congratulations all of it it was a kiss on the lips And so I'd say that was really the start of the sexual behavior It's the line bending

[00:29:14] Line bending yeah do you know are you familiar with the term line bending

[00:29:17] I feel like that's something every gymnast okay here whatever you're about to say and it's with all these things it's a kind of boundary testing yeah it doesn't start with the abuse it's a slow burn or the metaphor people always use as the frog in in water right like it jumps out if you throw a frog in boiling water but if you boil the water slowly it dies

[00:29:37] And ironically Keith Reneary in next year taught us about line bending remember now yeah it was a term that I learned there it in more like not salacious or heated content point like an example I always give is like you know if I wanted you Melanie to watch my children for the weekend

[00:29:58] I could say hey can you come over watch my children for the weekend like with a big ask but if I said hey do you mind coming over and watching my kids for a bit while I go out like an hour and then I'm out like oh an emergency came up and I have to go do something can you stay the night and it just like you're already there and you feel icky about it but like you just keep you keep going with it because it's not the next thing is not the biggest ask right

[00:30:19] Yes the same thing that happened you know for me is like if they had said hey do you want to join a personal development program and in 12 years have the leaders initials burn into your flesh I would have said no but there was a slow bending of the line that occurs over time so I think that's a really clear example a b I'm so sorry that this happened to you like my heart goes out for 12 year old Melanie trying to be the best gymnast and then like being so taken advantage of

[00:30:49] the conditions is he's saying that to you in a situation where it'd be really uncomfortable for you to set a boundary in front of other people yes so that's a highly coercive manipulative tactic as he knows the power that he has over you and he knows that you're not strong enough at 12 years old to set that boundary in front of

[00:31:07] exactly yes considering that you're going for his affection as well yeah thank you okay Kim yeah oh I haven't heard this stuff so yep ran it and we're blowing the lid off it can I add something from the parent perspective that you all ask Mel you know as I listen to her I can picture what that would be like I left home when I was 14 luckily didn't live with any coaches lived with a really a few different really great families but I was on my own like Mal for four years

[00:31:37] and I always say that I dodge so many bullets and was just really lucky that some of the things that happened to Melanie didn't happen to me and I can say you know as a parent of a former gymnast that you don't see it coming either you know there's sort of a meeting at the beginning of the season where the coaches literally say okay there's going to be no

[00:31:58] viewing your daughters now at the level that you can't come and watch will let you come in in the gym once a month and you can see her progress and is that okay with everybody and you kind of look around the room and everyone's like yeah okay and then you know the next thing I know one of the coaches saying sometimes it might look like we are bullying your

[00:32:18] bullying your daughters or we're being really hard on them but we promise this that's just what it takes to produce an elite athlete and you know we know what we're doing and we're asking for your trust and if you could extend as professional trust because we are the experts in this space you know we will do the right thing I mean and all of us I think are raised to implicitly trust to some extent I mean that's what makes the world go around if we didn't trust each other we couldn't do banking

[00:32:47] or driving or anything like that so you know you trust until you see differently and I really feel for Melanie's parents because there's no way they intentionally put her in that situation.

[00:32:59] Oh absolutely not and if you object in that point too you become the person that's in between the dreams of your daughter so it's another manipulative tactic of we know your daughter your child's goals here's what it takes and if you're not on board with this you're the person that's in the way of it as opposed to the person that's

[00:33:16] putting your daughter in a position to do this. Absolutely there's an extreme us versus them mentality in the sport. I'm going to speak to that a bit Kim because I mean you know my parents trusted my coaches and they trusted me and one time during a training there was an incident that

[00:33:35] happened it was an act of physical abuse on me and I can explain what it was I was having a mental block and on a vault which I usually was a pretty gutsy gymnast but if I couldn't feel it you know in my mind like doing self visualization then there was no way I felt comfortable doing it on the actual event

[00:33:59] and so I was kind of standing there and I was stuck I just couldn't go and he was getting frustrated and he marched down the runway grabbed me by the arm like a rag doll and dragged me down through me over the vault basically put me through the motions like as if I were a doll and kind of threw me over

[00:34:17] and that was the first time I remember being physically scared of him and I was embarrassed super embarrassed because I was scared of a move so I didn't want to be judged by the girls around me like oh my god Mell scared to do something I was scared because of what he just did so I was kind of holding back tears you know the type of crying where you like can't breathe and you're like

[00:34:40] so walking back trying to like keep it together knowing fully that I'm going to have to try this again and I don't want to be handled like that also trying to be brave in front of my teammates and then at the same time knowing that at the end of this training session I have to go home with him.

[00:34:57] So there was a lot for me to sort of navigate through well anyways somebody I don't know who somebody called Children's Aid about this particular incident.

[00:35:07] So I don't know how long after but I got called down from school they were like bring your books come to the principal's office and I realized it was a social worker that wanted to talk to me about what had happened and also what my home life was like are you being fed enough you know are your aches and pains being taken care of like basically what's your

[00:35:27] life like and the whole time I was sitting in that office. I don't think I heard a word she said I was thinking about getting back to class and writing an apology letter which I did I remember I used a purple pen and it was basically like I am so sorry for this it got blown out of proportion it's all misunderstanding

[00:35:46] it'll never happen again basically just groveling to my coaches because I was like oh my god I don't want them to get in trouble and so my parents were called yeah ended up having a meeting at the gym and I was flat out asked you know is everything OK what the hell happened and I lied I lied because I wanted to protect my

[00:36:06] coaches and I wanted to continue doing gymnastics and I felt like the version of me telling the truth would basically end my career and I also didn't want to I was so protective of my coaches you know I'm going to use a word that's a little bit culty but like I was indoctrinated at the time I would have

[00:36:25] like died for my coaches that's how much I was brainwashed and so you know speaking about parents and you know how do they not recognize the red flags well you know they asked me flat out and trusted me to be honest and I lied so what more can you do

[00:36:44] we've always seen that a lot with victims of various cultural coercive control get confronted by the authorities and even if the inside they're like help help but outwardly they have to protect their abuser because their whole world is in the hands their abuser and the indoctrination specifically is the belief internally that's been slowly built over time and tell me if this is right but I'm just imagining that they have the path to your success and that's it right

[00:37:13] and it's the same thing in a cult is like the cult leader holds the keys and so that dependency holds that belief in place you can't question it's just like children who grew up in the FLDS like if you question God you're not going to go to heaven when the rapture comes it's like there's no other way outside of that belief and also because you're so young it's the same as a religion your coach is God

[00:37:34] yes yeah right is that same rate 100% it's funny that you say God because I remember my dad telling me years after that one time he went up to my coach and this was a joke at the time not very funny now but and he said to him like can I see your hands and my coach was like confused and kind of like held them out and was like why and he said well because my daughter thinks you're Jesus so I want to see the holes in your hands and like you know it's so true

[00:38:04] I did I literally valued his opinion over anyone else and he could have told me to do anything I mean it got to a point where eventually I left so you know I did have boundaries wait I want to know how you left I just wanted to make a comment what we said earlier about the bed getting into the bed and overriding your gut instinct because I think that's super important and what we ask all our survivors is like what red flags

[00:38:31] happen along the way that you miss that you now see is a red flag and that's I think the first one as you said invited to do something you didn't feel comfortable with how do you reconcile that and how do we learn from that moment and the story that I want to share with you it's actually just listening to Glennon Doyle's book untamed yes

[00:38:49] I'm not sure if you read it so good right so good so I know what I'm going to be on their podcast next week so I know I know dying I know I know I'm re listening to it to like refresh myself why I loved her book so much and she used this example about how she two daughters and then went to get their ears pierced and one of them just went and did it right away and the other one was like got scared or not scared

[00:39:10] and I just like felt uncomfortable with it and decided not to do it and the ear piercer was said can you like push through and be brave like your sister or something like that and Glennon was like no no like if you don't want to do it don't do it and I think this is important and Nippy I don't know if you relate to this as much as a man but like this is such a pervasive thing for me as a woman where like it's part of like the basis of pure pressure you know of the push through and do it anyway like be brave and do it anyway and also for me with the branding

[00:39:39] feel the pain and do it anyway which is like maybe there's a time for that and especially I think maybe Nippy you can relate to this more in men's sports and that's a big big part of the push like you know man up and all that shit but like that's the basis of a woman or anyone getting into a car with a drunk driver because everyone's doing it

[00:39:55] you know like my gut instinct says don't do it but like how am I going to get home right so it's like your gut instinct is saying that's not right but like to say no is worse right yeah that's like one of the key things I want to figure out how to do it

[00:40:08] the nuggets to take away for our audience especially with parents of young children how to teach them when you have that feeling that it's not right how do you voice that without being or even like I guess you are going to be afraid of being ostracized

[00:40:23] I don't have the answer here I'm just trying to like formulate like how do we move forward with our kids and even for us with our kids like what do we teach them

[00:40:30] you'd have to understand the root cause of it that's a sometimes nebulous thing there's things in our culture and society and we think about the Kerry's drug thing and Meli I'm sure you can relate to this

[00:40:40] it's reinforced culturally this bravado right and it's shamed culturally if you don't transcend what everyone thinks you should it's not perceived as strong vulnerability and inner honesty emotionally isn't perceived as something as stronger than someone going along with the peer pressure when it should be

[00:41:01] but also gymnasts in particular have been very very groomed to conform to a good girl persona so for Mel to have said no goes against everything so to say no to getting into the bed with the family it was an option

[00:41:17] it really wasn't an option available to her I feel it's important to distinguish to you know I I don't put words in your mouth Mel but what I've seen with people that I have talked to extensively about this is other athletes and they've said you know at 12 years old even at 14 years old I wasn't doing this to be successful

[00:41:35] I'm putting up with this to get a metal hung around my neck I was doing this because there is this call and this yeah it's a calling to do whatever it takes to keep the piece to manage the harmony to make sure that the my husband and wife coaching team aren't

[00:41:54] going to get a divorce because of me that I'm not wasting my parents money by doing gymnastics and not being really committed to it not not even just winning it's to show that I have the work ethic that makes me a valuable human being and worthy of the money and time that's

[00:42:11] being spent on me it really isn't about the metal itself maybe the distant dream of the Olympics is an appeal but you know children aren't thinking that and so I've I'm already hearing the rhetoric from the comments in your Instagram feed that are going to say well why didn't her parents take her out or why didn't she just quit

[00:42:28] you know the other thing that's true about gymnastics and I don't think Mel and I can speak to any other sport because we've done nothing else but gymnastics but you know gymnastics invades your soul you're producing something that's beautiful that gives you an adrenaline rush that is it's physically addictive it's mentally addictive like there's all these components and you're a child who is in the very most vulnerable developmental stages of your whole life and all this is happening so it's an unfair playing field

[00:42:58] in addition to societal norms correct me if I'm wrong but you're also in a sport and this goes with tennis and I think other ones where your window to perform at your highest is actually when you're younger and it's a short window is that is that accurate yes yeah and especially years ago it's getting better now

[00:43:14] now female gymnasts are in their 20s but when Mel and I were training you had to be 16 even in your 20s I think the athletic prime for most people is 26 to 32

[00:43:23] but also just the concept of a parent letting your kid do any sport like our you know Troy's and football we talk about this a lot on the podcast I think he's probably spent more time with his coach in practice and in games than I have with him since the fall school year started like quality one-on-one time

[00:43:40] if I'm letting my child go into any sport there's an amount of time with an adult stranger that like do we do reference checks do we vet them beforehand

[00:43:50] well they're vetted beforehand by the way we hope so we hope so but I'm not getting standards in practice I read it trust me

[00:43:56] I'm sure you did but I'm just saying like as a concept there's probably lots of people who don't you mean in their field clearly didn't sound like

[00:44:03] well I don't know I guess moving forward how do we do this as parents and do it in a responsible way if your child's gonna spend that much time with another adult where you're saying teach me teach me everything not me like the kid is basically going into a setting where they are agreeing

[00:44:18] you're going to someone house to be raised

[00:44:20] yeah I mean I personally at this point knowing what I know wouldn't and this isn't anything against your parents at all this is just like for me now knowing your story is like I would not let my son move in with another family no matter what

[00:44:34] yeah in retrospect same I think my parents would definitely agree with that and also going back to what you said and what Kim said I think the biggest thing I've learned since being out of the sport that I wish all children all athletes know

[00:44:51] because I believed this so much in my core that my worth as a human being was based off of what my coach said it was you know that's why I said he could have asked me to do anything and I would have done it like up to a certain point obviously because I you know I quit eventually but I just as a little girl if I knew that my

[00:45:13] worth was inherent and didn't matter like you know how training went or how pleased my coach was I think it would have been a lot easier to say no I'm not going to do that because I knew my worth is and I know that now it's just for you know the first 30 years of my life

[00:45:30] well how many kids know their worth like it's right yeah yeah

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[00:47:57] it's I think inherent in all of the survivors and victims that we've spoken to is some people call it a vulnerability or whatever but like it's a normal thing that you don't know your worth and you're looking externally for it and then you get in a situation where the

[00:48:13] worth is coming from the outside and that person controls every aspect of your life you're fucked and that doesn't matter if it's gymnast or a cult you're ripe for abuse and I want to know how you extracted yourself in the situation was there any other red flags that happened along the way than what you've mentioned that you want to share with our audience.

[00:48:30] Yeah I mean eventually yes I mentioned the Valentine's Day card I think in the letter I mean those were two really big red flags at that point in my gym career I was kind of balancing a lot and I ended up one day at training I remember like it was yesterday I have a history of self harm and my coach actually was aware of that and I don't know I was getting in trouble for something just for being the most negative person he's ever met in his entire life and I just you know I'm

[00:49:00] kind of was I could feel myself going into like that space where I wanted to punish myself because of all the shame I felt for you know being 19 years old and still having issues with negativity because you know that was a common theme and I walked over to where one of the bars were and they're held in the ground by cables and one of them was frayed and I knew it was frayed and I walked over there and I just intentionally ran my arm down it and as soon as I did it I kind of snapped out of this trance

[00:49:29] and I was in and and was like I'm done this isn't worth it anymore it's not worth it to my health and I just have to walk away and so it wasn't easy by any means I went into a depression I felt completely lost I debated every single day going back to the gym.

[00:49:45] You know but as I stayed out of it and there was more space there it gave me a chance to really appreciate all the things that were wrong and all the other red flags that I don't want to say let go but yeah I guess in a sense I just let go so that I could keep on training and keep on pleasing my coach and you know even everybody in my life knew me as the gymnast and I was like well who am I then if I'm not a gymnast so that was scary and yeah it was just it was

[00:50:15] tough but that was the second I knew I have to get out of this. Did he try to stop you from leaving?

[00:50:21] Yeah, yeah they tried to they actually organized for a scout from one of the universities in Michigan to come and visit with my family and talk me back into training so that I could you know start my freshman year when I was 19 turning 20 and I you know I heard him out but I was like my stomach was in knots because

[00:50:44] I cannot go back and train even if it were for two months of the summer with my old coaches to prepare for a full ride scholarship I turned that you know I would rather you know pay for my schooling than have to go and your training with them because I just couldn't do it.

[00:51:01] And were you able to extract yourself from their home and everything okay like how did you get out of that dynamic? Yeah that was pretty cold turkey for me it was basically just like I cut all ties because I knew that was the only way.

[00:51:13] I had tried quitting before this is the time that it actually stuck but before I quit I made it two weeks and then you know I was still seeing them I was still visiting the gym and then I ended up going back and then this time you know when I was 19 and self harmed again right in the gym right in front of everybody I was like that's it this is this has got to stop and so at that point

[00:51:35] cut all ties now no longer had them on Facebook any social media you know they I didn't continue coaching there I didn't even go to the gym anymore there was no communication whatsoever it was like yeah they didn't exist anymore.

[00:51:49] Such a brave move and I realized that one of the red flags that I wanted to bring up were those intake forms that you sent us in preparation for this interview that they had you fill out at the age of 13. Those nuts.

[00:52:00] Yeah so some of the more culty questions and I've actually felt like answering them I had to answer them based on what they wanted to hear.

[00:52:10] And it's so embarrassing to go back and read that now because I've actually I have journals that I had when I lived with them and reading them it's like I was a little puppet on a string and just in case they found the journal and decided to read it.

[00:52:24] They would be happy with what my thoughts were you know that I'm not being considerate enough and I'm selfish person and I should show them more appreciation and just all this stuff and I'm like oh my God I was so brainwashed.

[00:52:35] Nippy when you read those sheets what stuck out to you as being the culty stuff.

[00:52:39] I mean pretty much all of them the whole process itself of questioning in this way is a huge red flag in terms of you're sharing intimate secrets about yourself to someone that is going to use them against you. Yeah.

[00:52:55] And it's pretty hard to figure out why they would need to know this under any circumstance unless they're a therapist. You know I've coached you know kids I've coached you know other teenagers and stuff like that.

[00:53:06] I don't need to know any of this stuff when I'm coaching them and if I were to ever get a hint of something going on with them emotionally I'd be how you doing it be like go talk to your parents and go talk to someone who's qualified.

[00:53:16] And that's the thing you see a lot of people in these realms excuse my language here who have no fucking clue what they're asking why they're asking it and they're not qualified to ask it.

[00:53:24] And they're assuming a mentorship role over these people as though they are an authority.

[00:53:30] And they normally anyone who would want to know these outside someone that he knows is demonstrated they care for you and care for your good being is abusive I think I don't know any of the reasons you would want to know that.

[00:53:42] You're totally right Nippy because that speaks to the crux of this one of these problems is that these coaches who and this is not all coaches but there's enough that it's making a massive impact on our community.

[00:53:54] And I think that's the same thing that's happening with Canadian youth and probably North American youth in gymnastics that the coaches want so much control that it doesn't even occur to them that asking invasive questions like the ones Melanie was asked is wrong.

[00:54:09] So we are trying to be the physiotherapist the diagnostician of injury the nutritionist the sport mental performance coach as well as the technical gymnastics coach and frankly the only rule that they are qualified to do is the technical gymnastics. Don't forget massage therapist.

[00:54:29] Of course the massage therapist we've been sent video footage of a male coach massaging the very upper thigh of a minor female gymnast on a mat and in fact the chair of the board of directors for the province is sitting six feet away watching and this coach has his hand like this far from the pubic area of the girl.

[00:54:52] We're looking at it like a two to three inch space people who can't see Kim at the moment. So I mean if I was a mother of a woman girl and I saw that I would go fucking apeshit.

[00:55:01] I was in a position once where my daughter's group were all giving each other at the end at the coach's request a female coach said hey everybody give each other a shoulder massage so all the little girls they were about nine we're giving massages on the shoulders and it happened to be a viewing night so my mother was there I was there we were watching my daughter and.

[00:55:22] The next thing I knew the female coach said to this brand new male coach you should get this gymnast to give you a massage because her hands are really strong.

[00:55:30] You know my back went up and I looked at my mom and I'm like I don't love this but you know I'm also groomed I have also been groomed not only as an athlete but as a parent and so I'm watching my daughter give him a shoulder rub not hating it but not loving it and.

[00:55:45] I turn away and we're talking amongst ourselves with the parents I look back and there's my kid using one of those hand rollers that you push up and down on a large muscle group to massage it and the coach is sitting on the floor with his legs in a straddle position and she's kneeling between his legs rolling his upper thigh out with this massage tool and I lost my shit and I grabbed my mom's hand and like what do I do I don't because I don't want to humiliate my daughter by yelling at her.

[00:56:15] I don't want to cross that boundary that I have been taught for 30 years is not my place.

[00:56:21] I don't want to be called the crazy mom but my gut is saying get your kid out of there so I end up standing all I stood up at the railing and I'm up on the second story overlooking all this so I can't hear the dialogue specifically but I can see enough and I literally yell down honey it's it I use her name but I don't want to say it on on this podcast.

[00:56:44] But we got to go that's enough and no no parent has ever done that before in this space like you are up there and it's a privilege and honor that you've been allowed to watch this right a month. Nobody talks.

[00:56:58] And so I'm I'm there going time to go. Yeah time to go and and I'm like looking like an absolute panic attack is about to take upon and afterwards I said to her did you see me up in the balcony.

[00:57:10] And she said yeah and she said you've never done that before I said no do you know why I was so agitated and she said because I was giving him a massage and I said yes and more specifically do you understand what was different about the shoulder massage you're giving your teammates versus the leg massage.

[00:57:27] You were giving your coach he said yes because I was very close to his private parts she knew how old was she nine ten.

[00:57:37] But young and so we had the whole talk about boundaries and appropriate behavior and her ability to say no which you know was very underdeveloped at age nine or ten.

[00:57:49] And a few months later actually he said to her come over here I need to fix your ponytail your hair is too messy.

[00:57:56] And apparently she said to him no I feel more comfortable if my female coach fixed my hair and he looked at her and said bend over and let me fix your hair.

[00:58:06] And so she basically felt forced to bend over so that he could compile all her ponytail hair and then do it later. And that transgression of a boundary in my opinion was equally offensive for sure.

[00:58:20] And so it just gives you an idea that even as a parent who went over and over like ad nauseam about boundaries and when you can say no which is always if you're uncomfortable.

[00:58:31] And I mean I tried I to this day my kids roll their eyes every time I try to say anything because they've been so over coached if you will but they're still vulnerable they're still vulnerable.

[00:58:42] It's so hard like I was struggling this with our eight year old two like you know he's starting to have a little bit of attitude and and like I just wanted to say no.

[00:58:50] I just want him you know as most parents who wanted to listen but I don't want him to be obedient. It's such a struggle for me to find that line don't you think Nick? I think he's gonna be alright.

[00:58:58] I think he's gonna be fine but like I struggle with that as a mother it's like I don't want him just to do it because I said it.

[00:59:04] I don't want him to mouth back both after me but all of these situations they really reward the obedient child or the obedient student in our case.

[00:59:13] If you're not a sheep you're a problem and I don't have an answer to that which brings me to Melanie is anything else you want people to know in terms of how you left and how your healing advocacy is part of your healing I'm imagining.

[00:59:25] Definitely yeah so I didn't get help right away which you know I feel like if for anybody else who's kind of going through something similar.

[00:59:34] I was ashamed to get help because I feel we were so taught that like you know you're strong cry on the inside like a winner you know just handle it.

[00:59:43] I figured because I was out of the gym it was done that part of my life was gone and I was just going to bury it done.

[00:59:49] And then you know nightmares started happening and anxiety and depression and I was angry all the time and so I eventually got help which has been amazing.

[01:00:00] I've been processing everything you know what actually kind of forced me to get the help is a one of my former teammates called the police at the height of the Me Too movement and

[01:00:11] basically told them what she had witnessed. And then I got a call from the police and it kind of spawned this whole criminal trial which unfortunately my coach was acquitted.

[01:00:20] But then gymnastics Canada did their own investigation and there was a disciplinary hearing so he's banned for life now. Oh feel his wife had a five year suspension so I think that's up in 2024. So there's still a chance that she could go back to coaching.

[01:00:36] Sorry quick question how did he get acquitted like was there just not enough evidence. Yeah acquitted doesn't mean innocent Canada like right our whole coaching community doesn't get that acquitted does not mean innocent. So what does it mean here. It means that the judge found a technical loophole.

[01:00:53] So there was quotes that I was an incredible witness and her you know at the verdict hearing. Honestly she ranted for about 20 minutes about all my accolades and how I was a credible witness and I thought for sure it was going to go in our favor.

[01:01:06] And then she started talking about you know my coach and it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt and there unfortunately was a connection between myself and the lead detective. And that was used basically to acquit my coach of the charges. So yeah very very unfortunate.

[01:01:27] Geez I'm so sorry at least he's banned which is good. Yes he's banned. So yeah that's where back in March the open letter from gymnast for change Canada came out.

[01:01:37] I signed it and you know I was very intrigued and thought oh my god you know I'm not alone now we're up to 550 plus people

[01:01:46] and I sent in my victim impact statement which I had written and I was you know so proud to say at the verdict hearing and then never got to because you know he was acquitted.

[01:01:57] So I sent it to gymnast for change they responded to me and asked if I wanted to be a part of it and be on the steering committee and so that's how I met Kim.

[01:02:07] And that's where we're at now and we've made progress and we're still really trying to get this you know independent investigation at a judicial level so that change can actually happen.

[01:02:18] So yeah I mean I'll let Kim speak more to that but it's been the whole process once I actually started getting help and a big thing was that my abuser is being held accountable and it's not a dirty little secret anymore

[01:02:32] it's kind of out in the open and hopefully it can save other young athletes from being in the same position.

[01:02:39] I sure hope so. It's so important it's such a relief that all these things are coming to light and that people can educate themselves and make different decisions it's really important what you're both doing. Do you think the legal team is educated on what they're looking at now?

[01:02:52] In terms of coercive control you mean? Yeah.

[01:02:54] I can't really answer that question with a lot of certainty but what I am hoping is the more information like this that comes out the more law schools will start to educate young lawyers on how to deal with these exact situations.

[01:03:09] I think there's a real sensitivity around abuse now people are more aware that it's out there but how do we question about it what do we accept as credible or truth or believability those are still really difficult concepts to put into a box.

[01:03:28] So I'm not really sure but what I do know is that gymnast for change is continuing to push we're hoping and practically begging the Canadian government to have a closer look at this.

[01:03:39] You know Canada has a legacy of not protecting their children we have some horrendous history of residential schools for indigenous people and children were at the center of that victimization. That's horrific.

[01:03:52] Yeah and I think the legacy of abuse that has happened in sport and some sports are worse than others some gyms are worse than others there are people doing it beautifully and correct and safely.

[01:04:03] And there are people like what Mel described those people are there too and they exert a ton of control over the entire coaching community we know that in the last few weeks gyms a gym in Melanese province had her coach sitting there in the gym with new little kids.

[01:04:22] Being exposed to him I mean what kind of mixed messaging is that when kids go home and say oh this coach was in our gym today and the mom or dad are like oh I thought he was banned for life and then the kid goes no well my coach must think he's fine because she allowed him to be in our gym.

[01:04:38] I mean that's a level of grooming unto itself and this is happening across the country.

[01:04:44] So today we have a letter that's gone out to our federal sport minister it's probably our most detailed and graphic letter because we've been pushed to that point where we've had to expose details about abuse that has been told to us in a way that we had hoped we wouldn't have to

[01:05:03] I mean if they had answered our call eight months ago for an independent judicial review none of this would have to be public but because we do not seem to be having the traction that we need we've done that and I can see my phone has been buzzing for this entire hour and a half with reporters who wants who want quotes or to have us on live TV.

[01:05:25] We've already done four interviews and it's only 9am my time so is that because the documentary just came out. No the documentary is not even out. We released an open letter and the open letter and the documentary will be out early November.

[01:05:39] I'm just curious have you either been in touch with any of the Larry Nasser victims.

[01:05:44] Yes, yes we have in fact and they've been super supportive Rachel Den Hollander Trinay Gonzar judge Aucalina herself has met with us and provided us with video footage to encourage ourselves to get out of this.

[01:06:00] We've had a lot of survivors in Canada to continue to keep forward to continue to push for change and I mean she's just a beacon of light for all of us gymnastics survivors. That's so good.

[01:06:13] I'm so happy to hear that what you're doing is so important and also saving people saving people and as a mom and as a woman and as a survivor and a different type and thoroughly moved. It's really important.

[01:06:24] This is really hard stuff and you know we're in it every single day and I have to say like Melanie's strength to present her story in this way so articulately and so heartfelt and it's the similar stories that we hear over and over again and you know it doesn't make us weaker.

[01:06:44] No, some days were tired and some days I cry myself to sleep at night on behalf of the 550 gymnasts that we represent but we're not stopping.

[01:06:54] And every day in every platform we get like this where we are heard and believed and it's not questioned it will empower us to move forward. Hey Mel, like we're just we're on fire and we're not stopping. You have our full support. It's working. Thank you.

[01:07:13] You absolutely have our full support and I know that most people don't talk about this because of the shame and the fact that you either moved through it or put it aside or embraced it or whatever you've done to be able to talk about it is a real service for others because it gives them.

[01:07:24] The path to come forward as well and talk about it and put people like your abusers either behind bars or out of the gym. It's important. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys.

[01:07:35] Keep doing the work you're doing and it's amazing because people just don't see it coming until it's too late until you're branded or until your child is crawling into bed with a grown man. Speaking of Glenan, I wore my cheetah print because we're all goddamn cheetahs.

[01:07:52] Yes, you are. You're totally a goddamn cheetah. Thank you both again. Wow. What'd you think, Nippy? I have a chap's my ass right out of the gate. Okay, hit me. Well, I was thinking about the carry-struck thing.

[01:08:16] We had an experience kind of recently where all that bravado and all that stuff is totally reinforced by our culture and the fact that there's an ecosystem that supports it. And when you call it out, even people that agree with you are silent about it.

[01:08:30] Yeah, I actually was debating whether to say something on this podcast about what happened. Can I say it? Yeah, absolutely. So we were at a football game, one of Troy's games, keeping my name is eight.

[01:08:41] The kids are eight and nine and at the break, I think it was a tie game. It was a tying game and at the half time I walked around the fields. It used the washroom at the session stands and I heard the coach yelling at the kids.

[01:08:53] Now keep in mind this, I recorded this episode and then this happened and I'm not talking about like go, go, go, like get out there and you got this. It was berating. It was name calling.

[01:09:04] I actually don't recall the exact words but it was a tone of you know what I'm on and you think you're gonna run it. Like it was just so aggressive. It was bad. It was bad and I actually turned to like see if anyone could see it.

[01:09:17] There was some grandparents. Keep in mind this is the other team. These are not yelling at my kids. These are kids I don't know.

[01:09:22] And I turned around and I saw a woman who was like you know, like definitely one of the grandparents and I said, is this okay? Are you okay with this? And she goes, no, no that is too much.

[01:09:31] And her husband beside her like old school Southern guy said, oh it's fine kids these days. I need to toughen up. And I was like, okay. There's that culture. Is that culture? And I went to the bathroom.

[01:09:42] I was shaking and I came back and I consulted with some other moms and some of them hadn't heard some of them had and I'd heard that this guy had been kicked off like the baseball field last season for yelling.

[01:09:51] Keep in mind when I got to Atlanta there was a team meeting with all the parents and it was about concussions and sports and like things to look out for. And it was like, these are the things that are not allowed. You can't drink.

[01:10:02] You can't yell at the kids. I actually thought it was overboard with like the rules and everything. The rules where I was like, well what am I getting into?

[01:10:08] Anyway, all this to say I had to say something after everything that I've gone through I felt like I couldn't just sit on my hands. No, I was glad you did. Thank you.

[01:10:17] My mistake though is I was trying to sort of say it to him privately and I tried to but then one of the other coaches kind of like walked up as I was saying it and heard it.

[01:10:24] And I think I embarrassed him, but I said it in a way that was like, he shook my hand and goes, good game even though it was a tie. Good game. I'm like, yeah, good game. But like that yelling, like I think the yelling is a little much.

[01:10:33] And he's like, excuse me. And I said, I just feel like these, you know, these are little kids. You're going to ruin the game for them. And they're going to feel terrible about themselves. And I think it's like borderline abusive.

[01:10:41] And he said something about, well, you don't know me. And they know that I'm doing it just to, you know, get them going. And I, you know, afterwards I'm really loving with them and I'm kind to them.

[01:10:49] And in my head, I'm going like, that's what you're going to turn them into psychopaths. That's even worse. It's worse after everything we've learned, especially with Alexander Stein, like you abuse them and then you're nice to them. Like it's just heartbreaking.

[01:11:00] And I felt like I crossed a boundary with some of the other mothers agreed. Some of them didn't. It's never going to be perfect, right? You're challenging an ecosystem of abuse and other people don't want to feel like they were complicit.

[01:11:15] And so you have two things going on. You have to address the abuse and then you have to address the compliance of people that you're bringing to their awareness that they're compliant and they don't really want to readily own that. Yeah.

[01:11:26] And I said to him and other people who kind of like, we kind of got into it, I was like, especially some coaches on our team are like, yeah, you know, I've been yelled at like that before. I'm like, that doesn't make it okay.

[01:11:36] Like this is not, this should not be normal. And I said, I'm so glad that you're on the same page as me, Nip, because I internally was like, if Nipi's not. I didn't like it when it was done to me. It was done to me.

[01:11:45] Look, it was done to me way worse by the time I was 15. I didn't like it, but I thought I couldn't say anything. Yeah. And I witnessed way worse. Yeah, I would have pulled him.

[01:11:52] If that had happened, this is where I feel like I should have done more. Granted there was a fence between us when this happened, but like somebody like that was yelling at Troy, I would have marched into the field and pulled him off.

[01:12:01] I was like, no, that's not. You would have been pulling me off someone. You would have gotten physical to protect him. Is that what you mean? You wouldn't have made it on the field before I would have done something. Okay, gotcha. I'm glad we're on the same page.

[01:12:12] Anyway, we're going to talk more about this over on Patreon. Before we sign off, don't forget to see our show notes for more information on gymnasts for Change Canada and their website and resources and all that important stuff.

[01:12:23] Lots of bonus content, including our little trip to Albany was documented on my iPhone. And we're processing season two of the vow in depth when we aren't, you know, screaming at the TV. I know, sir, you gotta watch that.

[01:12:36] Apparently my angry voicemail is going to, they're making it into like a voicemail because it's not a voicemail, a ringtone. A voice meme? A voice meme. Yeah. It's famous. Wake up. Wake the fuck up. I hear plenty of that. Okay everyone. Thank you for listening.

[01:12:51] Let us know what you think of the episode over on the Patreon or the Instagram, TheSociMeeds and we'll see you next week. Bye for now. The Ocean. Hanging on to the way to my love. All I could leave but alone.

[01:13:36] And for more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page turning memoir. It's called Scarred. The true story of how I escaped Maxim, the cult that found my life. It's available on Amazon, Audible, narrated by my wife and at most bookstores.

[01:13:52] A Little Bit Colty is a talkhouse podcast and a Trace 120 production. We're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames with writing, research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy. We're edited, mixed and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of Citizens of Sound.

[01:14:10] And our amazing theme song, Cultivated, is by John Bryant and co-written by Nigel Asselin. Thank you for listening.