Trust Fall: Dr. Natalie Feinblatt on Trauma, Addiction & Cult-Informed Therapy

[00:00:00] The views and opinions expressed by A Little Bit Culty are those of the hosts and do not necessarily

[00:00:05] reflect the official policy or position of the podcast. Any content provided by our guests,

[00:00:10] bloggers, sponsors, or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any

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[00:00:20] Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a

[00:00:34] great thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:40] And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met, fell in love, in a quote,

[00:00:45] self-help organization that turned out to be a mega cult called Nexium. Heard of it? We got

[00:00:51] out of there together and on our way out, we helped shut it down. Our journey as Nexium whistleblowers

[00:00:56] was captured in detail on a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a

[00:01:01] newspaper. New York Times, babe. Right. Have you heard of it? Each week on A Little Bit Culty,

[00:01:06] we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers plus experts in things like

[00:01:11] cultic abuse and coercive control. We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians

[00:01:16] with wisdom to share on recovering from everything from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances with

[00:01:21] raging narcissists. There's always something to learn about the cultiverse. Be sure to subscribe

[00:01:26] to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode. Find us on Instagram and at a littlebitculty.com.

[00:01:32] Well, well, well. Look at what we have here. Another episode of ALBSE.

[00:01:56] Another day? Another pod.

[00:01:59] How you doing? I'm good. What were you talking about before we started here? You wanted to

[00:02:04] drop some knowledge or something like that? I was just thinking about how interesting it's

[00:02:08] been since we had the two episodes with Jennings. One about Teal Swan, one about Fellowship of Friends.

[00:02:13] But since then, there's probably been more activity regarding Teal Swan and the deep end

[00:02:20] out on multiple networks now. Spark in Canada and Hulu in the US. And people are really

[00:02:27] not only quite disturbed by the series itself but by watching her response on her blog. And

[00:02:34] I really encourage people to go there and to look at it, to really see how somebody responds

[00:02:40] who's just really not willing to take responsibility. But pretending to.

[00:02:43] But pretending to. Also, I think it's really interesting that of all of the 40 plus episodes

[00:02:49] we've done now, there's been no group that we've looked at that has had followers that have

[00:02:54] attacked us or come back to tell us that we are bad people more so than the Teal followers.

[00:03:01] How many is that? I mean, there's definitely more than any of the other groups and we've looked at

[00:03:05] a lot of groups. It's interesting that this is a spiritual group and they find them quite hateful

[00:03:10] actually and quite hurtful. Not so spiritual. Not so spiritual, not so spiritual actually.

[00:03:14] Someone said that you weren't so spiritual one time, wasn't that true?

[00:03:18] My dear friend Alistair Abel who introduced me to the world of voiceover and Walla

[00:03:24] 20 years ago. Some people here in Vancouver may know Al Abel. He's a legend. He said

[00:03:28] I wasn't very spiritual. He said, that's so spiritual and I ever since then was

[00:03:32] trying to prove how spiritual in fact I was. And that's when you went out and got your

[00:03:35] like spiritual gangster t-shirt. I think I had to join a cult to prove how

[00:03:39] fucking spiritual I was. Thanks to Al Abel. Al Abel. It's all your fault. He's gonna love that one.

[00:03:46] I just blamed it on him. Blamed it all. But you know what? I want to just say something

[00:03:49] because I do hope the Teal Swarm followers are listening to this and I want to just say

[00:03:53] like truly from the heart, like not cheesy like love and light but like truly as a

[00:03:59] empathetic person. I understand where you're coming from because when I was in Nexium and people

[00:04:04] talk shit about Keith and the community I was like, how dare you even pretend that you know

[00:04:10] because you've never even met him? You've never met him. You've never taken the classes.

[00:04:14] How would you trust something that's on the internet more than me? I'm talking about my

[00:04:17] experience. Like that was really hurtful. So I get it. I just want you to know that

[00:04:22] when you're in something like this and it's good and you're vested in it being good,

[00:04:26] it's really hard to see the bad. You don't want to see the bad because that means something about

[00:04:31] you and the choices that you've made. So you tend to block those things out. You don't know what

[00:04:36] you're looking at until you're out of it. And so all I will say is as somebody who defended

[00:04:41] the goodness and defended the goodness and was never willing to look at the bad,

[00:04:44] I just encourage you to do your own research because if there's nothing bad there,

[00:04:48] you'll still use the tools that you've learned and you'll keep on trucking.

[00:04:52] There's nothing wrong with watching these series and taking note, if people are hurt,

[00:04:57] it doesn't mean that you can't leave with your good experiences intact,

[00:05:01] but you may want to look at what's happened to other people and get out before it happens to

[00:05:05] you. That's all I want to say. That's a good point because you can keep some of the good

[00:05:09] and make the necessary pivot with a more informed decision, which is really what all this

[00:05:13] is about. It's informing you to make better decisions for your life. And we have seen some

[00:05:17] interesting dialogue about how the media can be edited to present a false narrative. And certainly,

[00:05:23] we saw that in the case of Sarma. I just really strongly think that that's not what's happening

[00:05:28] in this case. And there may have been ominous music or whatever things edited, but there's

[00:05:34] enough sound bites that are clean and unedited that are still equally as disturbing,

[00:05:38] just watching the series. And we have an episode coming up

[00:05:41] about that. That's next actually. So today, we have a guest named Nat Feinblatt,

[00:05:45] but next week, we interview the director and the producer of the deep end. So your homework

[00:05:50] is to finish it if you haven't already. I do love giving homework, don't I?

[00:05:55] You're like the substitute teacher that gives homework and everyone's just like, yeah, okay.

[00:05:58] I'm back with my clipboard. Your clipboard.

[00:06:01] Hey guys, guess who's getting promoted today? Oh, God.

[00:06:05] And so that's your homework, yes. And what else do we have to share? Oh, we were in

[00:06:09] Dax, Shepard's. Dax, Shepard, Arm Chared and Dangerous with Dax Monica and David Ferreira.

[00:06:14] Arm Chared and Dangerous.

[00:06:16] It's an offshoot of Arm Chared Expert, and that was a really nice showdown. I mean,

[00:06:21] to have like our, you know, one of our personal heroes speak highly.

[00:06:24] I think you said there's two dudes on the dock who are reconciling Keith's achievements

[00:06:28] at 11. I think he's referring to this scene in the Vow when I was just rolling my eyes

[00:06:32] at the fact that Keith put Judo Champ age 11 on his resume.

[00:06:35] That's definitely one of my favorite scenes from the Vow.

[00:06:38] Well, it's not a scene. We're just having a conversation, but it's just more of a

[00:06:42] recap and like if you have to put anything on your resume that you achieved when you were 11 years old.

[00:06:47] You should definitely take note of that.

[00:06:49] If anyone has an achievement from fifth grade on the resume, just chuck it.

[00:06:54] Chuck it. All right. What else?

[00:06:56] Let's introduce our guest. Here's the question. Have you ever asked yourself,

[00:07:00] wait, am I in a cult or thought I have to get out of here? Or if you're at the

[00:07:05] I'm out and now I have nothing, stage of cult recovery, our guest today wants you

[00:07:09] to know that there is help out there and you don't have to do it alone with your healing process.

[00:07:14] Surendipitous because we just had some people ask us about a healing process. So this is the episode.

[00:07:19] Dr. Natalie Feinblatt is a licensed clinical psychologist in private practice in Los Angeles,

[00:07:24] California who specializes in the treatment of addiction and trauma.

[00:07:27] And one of our trauma subspecialties is working with former cult members.

[00:07:31] She received her BA from UCSD at University of California at San Diego

[00:07:36] and her master's in doctorate from Pepperdine University where she wrote her doctoral dissertation

[00:07:40] on psychotherapy with former core members and has specialized in helping them ever since.

[00:07:45] She also does EMDR, brain spotting and other trauma specific therapies.

[00:07:50] She was also featured on the series finale of Lear Remini Scientology in the Aftermath.

[00:07:54] No big deal. It's a freaking big deal. She joins us today to talk about what it takes to

[00:07:59] help ex-cult members make the transition to their former true pre-cult identities and what

[00:08:04] helps when it comes to standing strong in the face of exit fallout. Super excited to share a

[00:08:09] very practical tool-oriented episode with Dr. Natalie Feinblatt. Hi, Natalie.

[00:08:26] Hi. Thank you so much for having me on. Welcome to a little bit culty.

[00:08:30] I am super happy to be here. So many people reach out to us. Can you recommend

[00:08:34] therapists or psychologists who have a cult background? And that's something that we

[00:08:38] certainly at least recommend. At least, you know, people are reaching out if you can find

[00:08:42] that or someone who's at least trauma-informed. But you have both, you're trauma-informed and

[00:08:47] you have a cult education. Yes, I am. So I'm happy to be here and I'm always happy to talk about it.

[00:08:53] So my father worked in the film industry for his entire career and he does like picture cars.

[00:08:59] So he worked on the Tom Cruise movie Days of Thunder. Cool trickle.

[00:09:04] Cool trickle. He's familiar with his wins. Yeah. And I was about 10 at the time,

[00:09:08] which when I went back and did the math on that, I was like, geez, Louise,

[00:09:10] I've been interested in this since I was 10. All the grown-ups were talking about how Tom Cruise

[00:09:14] was a Scientologist and I was like, what's that? And no one could answer my question,

[00:09:19] which seemed really weird, you know? Yeah. In spite of my last name, I was raised Catholic

[00:09:24] and like, you know, somebody asks you what is the Catholic Church? You can kind of give them

[00:09:28] a rundown of it or, you know, what is being Jewish involved? People can give you a rundown of

[00:09:32] that. But nobody could tell me what Scientology was or what these people did. And it just

[00:09:38] stuck in my head as like, well, that's weird. Why do all of these people know about this,

[00:09:42] but nobody actually knows what it is? Right? So fast forward maybe seven or eight years and

[00:09:48] the internet becomes a thing. Right? And so curious me one day I was just like, oh,

[00:09:53] it wasn't Google back then there wasn't a Google. Maybe it was Yahoo or Alta Vista or something.

[00:09:58] Jeeves. Yeah, ask Jeeves. What is Scientology? And that got me into the burgeoning world online

[00:10:07] of former Scientologists who were connecting with each other and kind of starting to expose

[00:10:14] the truth about this organization. And it just fascinated me. So I just spent hours and hours

[00:10:20] reading everything I could online, looking at some books that were in existence at that point.

[00:10:25] And then that kind of led me to the broader just cult discussion and reading and listening

[00:10:31] and watching. And so from high school to dissertation, I was just somebody who was

[00:10:37] really, really interested in cults and not just from like a true crime angle, but it also

[00:10:45] really interested me the ways in which cults impact people and how they try to heal after

[00:10:51] being in an organization like a cult. And so when it came time to write my dissertation,

[00:10:57] anybody who's done one probably goes through a similar process where you're supposed to

[00:11:00] pick a bunch of topics and then narrow it down, narrow it down, narrow it down. And that was one

[00:11:04] of my many topics and it got narrowed down and narrowed down. And eventually that was the winner.

[00:11:09] What was the title? Oh my gosh, what was the title? Sorry. No, no, it's okay. It's okay.

[00:11:13] It's been a while. Yeah. Number one, it's been a while. And number two, I think anybody who's

[00:11:17] written a dissertation will tell you that no matter how much you love the topic,

[00:11:21] by the time you're done with your dissertation, you want nothing to do with it.

[00:11:25] I hear you. You're just dumb. I feel that way about my essays in university,

[00:11:29] so I can't even imagine. There you go. So it was something like the effectiveness of psychotherapy

[00:11:34] with former cult members, a literature review, something along those lines which pretty much

[00:11:39] describes what it was. And so yeah, that's where things got started for me going from just like

[00:11:45] interested person to professional and academic work in this area. Most people when they hear

[00:11:50] about a cult, it's the salacious stuff that lures them in. It was more curious for you.

[00:11:55] Would you say that it allowed you more room for the human aspect of it as opposed to what most

[00:12:00] people are interested in when they watch it? They really just want to prove that it couldn't

[00:12:03] happen to them. Right. Yeah. No, I do think that kind of opened me up to the human aspect of it.

[00:12:09] I just happened to hit, I think, the right place at the right time in terms of getting on

[00:12:13] that part of the internet at the time that all of these former Scientologists were kind of

[00:12:18] finding each other, creating community in open forums for anyone to see, which is what I was

[00:12:25] looking at. And so that really gave me, it wasn't just the books or the documentaries or whatever,

[00:12:32] it was like real people telling their real stories about how they were going through what I know now

[00:12:38] is like PTSD and the effects of course of control, really being able to see on an individual level

[00:12:46] what this had done to people and how they were trying to heal from it.

[00:12:50] You have a specialty in addiction and trauma. Correct. Those are my two big areas.

[00:12:54] The longer I do this work, the more kind of parallels I see between like addiction recovery

[00:12:59] and cult recovery. They're not the same obviously. But one of the things is that you know, you

[00:13:05] can't really make somebody see the light before they're ready. You can't really make

[00:13:11] somebody want to change before they're ready, which can be really challenging for like loved

[00:13:16] ones and family members. And they may never. Yeah, exactly. That's a real possibility. Yeah.

[00:13:21] And they never do. Both addictions and cults, some people don't get there. So that's one of the

[00:13:26] big similarities I've seen in that kind of work. How do you think trauma and addiction are related?

[00:13:31] Oh boy. On a Venn diagram. Well no, I'm glad you said that because that's the thing I

[00:13:37] always say to people is that I started an addiction treatment and then it didn't take long

[00:13:43] for me to realize that you can't really specialize in addiction without specializing in trauma

[00:13:48] because the Venn diagrams almost completely overlap. Before I was in private practice,

[00:13:54] I worked in addiction treatment for many years like detox, residential, intensive

[00:13:58] outpatient programs, all this. And if I look back and think how many of the people that

[00:14:03] I worked with during that time genuinely had no trauma history whatsoever, we're talking hundreds,

[00:14:10] maybe thousands of people. I can count them on my fingers. And so addiction in my opinion a lot

[00:14:16] of the time is a way to self-medicate and cope with post-traumatic stress. And it's just one

[00:14:23] way that people do that. And unfortunately, given the nature of substances in the human

[00:14:27] brain, that can then create an addiction on top of all the post-traumatic stress.

[00:14:33] And probably more trauma.

[00:14:34] Exactly, because you get into all sorts of situations if your addiction is bad enough that

[00:14:39] create more trauma.

[00:14:40] Where does getting involved in a cultic group fit into that Venn diagram?

[00:14:45] That's a good question.

[00:14:46] From your experience.

[00:14:47] Yeah, I mean, I have definitely worked with some folks over the years in addiction

[00:14:52] treatment who got involved in groups. I mean, I talk about Scientology a lot,

[00:14:57] but Scientology has Narcanon, which is their rehab front group. And I worked with a few clients

[00:15:04] over the years who had well-meaning, but uninformed loved ones send them to a Narcanon facility and

[00:15:10] that never went well. Oh, and there's also the whole trouble teen industry thing where a lot of

[00:15:16] people get thrown into that again. And their family doesn't maybe do quite as much research to see

[00:15:21] that the place that they're sending them has maybe people online who are saying don't

[00:15:26] send anybody here, it's abusive, it's culty.

[00:15:28] Right. And just to remind our listeners about Elizabeth Gilpin who wrote a book called Stolen

[00:15:33] and whose parents again, well-meaning, trying to help her deal with basically just being a

[00:15:37] teenager but didn't have the tools and sent her to a group that used the methods of Synanon,

[00:15:43] which is now well known cult and a lot of troubled teen industry use those

[00:15:48] same structures that are found in those substance abuse original recovery centers.

[00:15:52] Is that right?

[00:15:52] Yeah. Synanon was definitely a thing here in LA. I think it was in like the 70s, early 80s.

[00:15:58] That kind of got busted, but it fractured in a bunch of different directions and a bunch of people

[00:16:03] who had kind of been big wigs there went off to do their own thing, including founding these,

[00:16:09] you know, therapeutic boarding schools quote unquote, that just recycled a lot of this,

[00:16:14] you know, really abusive Synanon treatment again, quote unquote.

[00:16:18] Right. It's not treatment, it's abuse, but yeah, unfortunately in some of those places

[00:16:23] are still out there and operating. Have you heard of CRLA? Oh yes. The one with Chris Batham.

[00:16:29] Chris Batham, yeah, that was a whole big thing. CRLA with Chris Batham. 80% natural ingredients

[00:16:35] take one a day. It indoctrinates you. We have an interview lined up with one of the survivors

[00:16:40] of that which is yeah super cultic, but it also bridges this sort of therapy recovery

[00:16:47] culty behavior narcissistic leader group, which seems to be consistent.

[00:16:50] He's a great example of how there's a lot of corruption in addiction treatment,

[00:16:55] a lot of unethical stuff that goes on like body brokering and what's body brokering? Oh boy.

[00:17:02] So yeah. That's got a lot of questions today. So body brokering is when treatment facilities

[00:17:11] will have a staff member whose job it is to essentially pay people to come to treatment

[00:17:18] in order to use their insurance benefits. Right. This will often involve paying for that person

[00:17:23] to relapse if they've been sober for a while because insurance won't pay if you come in clean.

[00:17:28] This is a whole world, you guys. It's a major insurance fraud.

[00:17:31] Major insurance fraud and it's also incredibly dangerous for people who are

[00:17:36] struggling with their recovery because people who are semi-in recovery get to know these body

[00:17:43] brokers and they just hop from facility to facility getting paid to go from place to place to stay

[00:17:49] there for 30 days, leave, relapse, go to another place. And obviously when you're dealing with a

[00:17:56] life or death illness like addiction, this kills people. Right? Like they don't always make it

[00:18:02] to the next place. It has a built-in argument too because if you call someone on that,

[00:18:06] you're being insensitive to their addiction. Wow. It's protected. It's like instant gaslighting.

[00:18:12] Wow. I don't want to give anything away for the episode about CRLA but I remember thinking,

[00:18:16] wait, Chris is taking this woman out for a drink? They're going out for a drink?

[00:18:21] I thought there was a mean recovery. What the f? Okay. But we'll save that for another

[00:18:26] episode. I noticed that once you bust one of these, there's a lot of spin-offs. Oh yeah,

[00:18:30] there's always lots of spin-offs. I mean, there are so many spin-offs of Scientology.

[00:18:34] There's one called Avatar. There's another one I like, you know, Landmark Forum has a little bit

[00:18:39] of Scientology in it. You know, people go to these groups, take certain things and then kind

[00:18:44] of build their own little thing around it or the group ends and it splinters and it goes off

[00:18:48] in a bunch of different directions. That's actually another episode I'm trying to work on

[00:18:53] doing this whole like tree of like when was the first large group awareness training, right?

[00:18:58] And what like, I think it was around like Life Spring and then was it Warner Airheart,

[00:19:02] spent time in Scientology and made Life Spring and then Life Spring turned into

[00:19:06] Est which turned into Landmark and Keith went to, you know, took from Scientology.

[00:19:10] Like there's just a freaking hodgepodge of the same shit in different war months.

[00:19:16] Bunch of narcissists just stealing ideas and then going and making their own harmful thing.

[00:19:20] Yeah. And then charging a lot of money for it.

[00:19:22] Yeah, yeah, that too, of course. Let's not forget about that.

[00:19:26] Well, given your background since you were looking at this since you were 10,

[00:19:28] when did you hear about Nexium and what did you think?

[00:19:31] Oh gosh.

[00:19:32] What's your first impression?

[00:19:33] I first heard of Nexium. I want to say like maybe when I was in my master's program,

[00:19:39] it was that one guy's website whose name I'm blanking on.

[00:19:43] Rick Ross.

[00:19:43] No, it was Rick Ross but the other guy that worked for you.

[00:19:46] Frank Parlotto.

[00:19:47] Yes.

[00:19:48] Frank Parlotto.

[00:19:49] Frank Parlotto and his stuff and Rick Ross and Frank Parlotto.

[00:19:53] I remember at the time just thinking like, oh God, here's another one.

[00:19:57] Sounds like they're taking the whole psychology self-help route versus the spiritual route.

[00:20:03] And I would check in on it every six months or a year to see if there were any developments

[00:20:09] or anything. I remember being really concerned and actually you guys can tell me about this

[00:20:15] because I think this was in the documentary that Keith has a kid.

[00:20:20] Is that two now?

[00:20:21] Yeah. Two.

[00:20:22] Two.

[00:20:22] Okay.

[00:20:23] Yeah. It was one and I remember reading and this may or may not be true that like they were like,

[00:20:28] oh, we're going to try to raise this kid like in the perfect way to be like the most smart sane

[00:20:34] person.

[00:20:35] Do you want to hear what we were told?

[00:20:37] Sure.

[00:20:37] And what it was?

[00:20:38] Yeah.

[00:20:38] At some point in the community, I want to say it was like 2008,

[00:20:42] nine. I actually don't know. I was a couple of years into the program.

[00:20:44] I don't remember what year he was born but all of a sudden this baby appeared on the

[00:20:48] scene. Now listen, I didn't live in Albany like we used to come and go and the story that

[00:20:51] we were told is that Barbara Jesky who's since passed of cancer and that was a separate long story

[00:20:56] we could do a whole episode on and why all the women around him were dying of cancer.

[00:20:59] Pause that. She was in her like late 50s I think and she showed up with this baby and what we

[00:21:04] were told is a friend of hers from childhood died tragically in an accident and basically

[00:21:08] she was going to be the godmother and so she was bringing this baby into the community

[00:21:11] and we were all going to raise it community style and it just so happened that Kristen

[00:21:16] Keith who was sort of like, sorry, Keith's right hand legal liaison woman wanted to sort of be the

[00:21:23] primary caregiver because Barbara was a bit older and then this rainbow program was developed and

[00:21:28] Keith had this theory about like teaching the children multiple languages and the baby

[00:21:31] learned 11 languages and had 11 different caregivers and the premise was that when

[00:21:36] you were with the you know the Mandarin speaking nanny, when you were with that

[00:21:39] nanny you only had Mandarin and you're only Spanish and he was learning Hindi and Russian

[00:21:43] and French and a bunch of different things. Anyway, we found out later like after we left

[00:21:48] because we spoke to Kristen it was Kristen's baby. Oh my. Kristen had the baby up until now

[00:21:54] she'd had abortions and all the women around Keith that had abortions and I don't know if she

[00:21:58] refused the abortion or there was past the time that she could have the abortion

[00:22:01] and they basically like we had been told that she was sick and in the hospital so

[00:22:05] we never saw her pregnant and then at the hospital I think it was Pam and somebody

[00:22:09] else convinced her to adopt the agreement they came up with that she could keep the baby as long

[00:22:14] as no one knew it was hers and so they came up with that story about how Barbara inherited the baby.

[00:22:19] So if anyone's still in nexium like the loyalists are listening to it and they're like fighting

[00:22:24] for how Keith is so honorable and good, why the fuck would they do that whole scheme?

[00:22:30] Oh because he's not celibate now. Well their capacity to lie in the ways that they lied

[00:22:36] we completely underestimated. If you think he's the most noble man in the world and he's so good

[00:22:41] and he's the next Jesus slash Buddha slash whatever but if you think that about somebody

[00:22:45] like if you truly imagine in your mind just for a minute that you think that about somebody

[00:22:48] and then you find out that they lie like that you go well they had to do that for a reason

[00:22:52] like I mean the community wasn't integrated enough to understand this concept so it was an

[00:22:57] ethical lie. Right. Everything can be dismissed on that assumption Keith is a good man he

[00:23:02] knows what he's doing it's an ethical lie. Right. No problem that's how they justify it anyway.

[00:23:06] So you heard about the baby and you were worried. I was worried I was like oh no there is this little

[00:23:10] kid in there being raised by who knows who I mean my goodness that caught my attention and then

[00:23:18] obviously I was paying attention to when you know your story broke and then like kind of the

[00:23:23] snowball started going down the hill and then everybody knew. Yeah. Yeah. You're welcome.

[00:23:34] But yeah it was just one of those groups and we see this happening more and more now which is great

[00:23:39] where it's a group that certain people have known about for a really long time that's finally getting

[00:23:45] you know journalistic attention and people are out and they have platforms and it's like

[00:23:51] oh thank goodness this is finally going in hopefully a better direction. Well information

[00:23:56] has been decentralized a lot so you know in the past to get your story out there you had to pass a

[00:24:01] lot of guardians at the gates for media but now you can tell your story and if someone like

[00:24:06] in our case is interested in it they can actually take it through due process.

[00:24:38] We tell our stories we change the world. A little bit Coltie is proud to support the

[00:24:43] hashtag I got out project which empowers survivors of cultic abuse to share their stories online as a

[00:24:49] catalyst for education prevention and healing. Learn more about the hashtag I got out movement

[00:24:55] and find resources at I got out dot org. This episode is sponsored by Better Help.

[00:25:06] What are your self-care non-negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga.

[00:25:12] Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. That's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it?

[00:25:17] Well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending

[00:25:21] literally as much time as I can outside of nature. Hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it.

[00:25:27] Nature is a non-negotiable not enough time the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel

[00:25:31] not great not myself not grounded. Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it

[00:25:37] and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority.

[00:25:40] I get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place

[00:25:44] and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need

[00:25:48] like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what

[00:25:52] I mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that. And if you're thinking of starting therapy

[00:25:56] give Better Help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited

[00:26:01] to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed

[00:26:05] therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge look even when we know

[00:26:10] what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no

[00:26:13] time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy day

[00:26:18] with Better Help visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month

[00:26:23] that's better help h-e-l-p dot com slash culty the frankies were a picture perfect influencer

[00:26:30] family but everything wasn't as it seemed I just had a 12 year old boy still up here asking for

[00:26:38] help he's emaciated he's got tape around his legs ruby frankie is his mom's name infamous is covering

[00:26:46] ruby frankie the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives listen to infamous

[00:26:54] wherever you get your podcasts do you think people in your field are waking up to it what

[00:27:05] it looks like what it sounds like what do you think they most need to know about this field

[00:27:09] what the trauma looks like and to create a safe space I think we're getting better

[00:27:15] we're definitely not where we need to be but I think we are getting better even if you're

[00:27:20] not somebody who specializes in working with trauma you can still have a trauma informed

[00:27:25] practice and come from a trauma informed place and I think that that alone is extremely helpful

[00:27:31] in this regard because this is a very specific type of of trauma that people undergo when

[00:27:38] they're in these sorts of groups or relationships I definitely think we still have a ways to go

[00:27:44] I can fill you in on this person offline but I actually got connected to another therapist here

[00:27:50] in LA and we had coffee yesterday who also specializes in this and neither of us had known each

[00:27:55] other somebody that that happened to know us both were like do you guys know each other wait who

[00:28:00] is her name is Quincy Gideon dr. Quincy Gideon never heard of her mean either I need her on my list

[00:28:06] well that was my question it's like do you guys have a peer review you bounce things off is there a

[00:28:11] system you know I will answer that question but you know so it was great for us to be able to

[00:28:16] meet each other she reached out to me so we had coffee yesterday and we both kind of commiserated

[00:28:21] about how you know we still see a lot of clients who come in and who say I saw this well meaning

[00:28:28] but not very well informed therapist who wasn't super trauma informed and really had no idea

[00:28:34] about coercive control or how abusive groups operate but we're also glad that we're able to

[00:28:39] find each other and to make these connections because this isn't a huge group of people that

[00:28:44] do this kind of work nippy to answer your question there isn't really any sort of centralized hub

[00:28:53] for people who do this kind of work like the only one I can think of is xta the international

[00:28:59] culture studies association but again like not everybody belongs to xta and it's more academic

[00:29:06] like it's not necessarily therapy support the academic part of it is definitely bigger than

[00:29:11] the clinical part of it for sure yeah and you know I still refer people to them like survivors because

[00:29:17] I think the portion of them that is survivors helping other survivors is incredibly helpful

[00:29:23] when fields are kind of evolving I imagine they have their rights of passage is to go through

[00:29:27] definitely I'm on Instagram a lot because that's the social media that I've kind of chosen to work

[00:29:33] with professionally yeah likewise and there's a lot of people on there thank goodness who are

[00:29:39] involved in helping people heal from religious trauma deconstructing kind of fundamentalist

[00:29:44] Christianity I see a lot of growth in that community which is very much adjacent to this

[00:29:48] so that makes me hopeful do you feel like you have a like a different type of intake when

[00:29:54] you know someone's coming out of a cult the reason I'm asking is I know that for myself with a lot of

[00:29:58] other nexium survivors is that there's been a consistent problem if someone's not totally

[00:30:03] informed or they just ask a question that's very similar to the line of questioning that was used

[00:30:08] in nexium which is so much stolen from actual therapy so do you have a way of like kind of

[00:30:13] determining what route you're going to go as a therapist and what to like avoid so you don't

[00:30:17] like re-trigger or traumatize someone just in the initial intake yeah definitely the way that

[00:30:21] I do it is prior to working with somebody I typically do like a consultation with them just

[00:30:26] to make sure they're a good fit for me I'm a good fit for them etc and once I figure out what kind of

[00:30:32] cult experience they're coming from even if it's a group that I had previously never heard of

[00:30:37] I will do my best to look into it a little bit just so I kind of get an idea at least on the

[00:30:42] surface about what it was about and what was involved and I mean I say this generally

[00:30:48] but especially if somebody is coming from a group like nexium or any of these other kind of more

[00:30:54] like self-help or therapy based groups you know I will start off by saying there's probably stuff

[00:31:00] that's going to happen in our sessions that might be triggering for you things that I'm going to

[00:31:05] say or just the way that this process works and I do my best to let clients know right off the

[00:31:11] bat that they have the right to speak up and say that word that you used upset me or

[00:31:17] the way that you asked that upset me or something about that and to say that is a trigger from

[00:31:22] my experience right and so I do my best to make space for clients to be able to say that sort of stuff

[00:31:29] right off the bat because I would much rather know right away so I can adjust or we can discuss it

[00:31:35] or whatever it is and I also think it can be empowering because typically when people come

[00:31:40] from these sorts of groups they were never able to do that they couldn't even voice that

[00:31:45] exactly and I try to support them and say I know that this is probably the opposite of what you're

[00:31:49] used to and you're probably going to have to take a leap of faith to see that you can do that and

[00:31:54] have me not respond the way that people have responded to you in the past but I put it out

[00:31:59] there right off the bat and I definitely encourage it. Can you share some of the common

[00:32:03] symptoms or telltale signs of PTSD proprietary and those clientele? Are there just some right

[00:32:09] away that you can tell and you know that they're going to be evolved and then how do

[00:32:12] you know when they're evolved? Are the signs or symptoms proprietary to cults or are they just

[00:32:17] trauma trauma trauma and it doesn't matter? So I guess I could kind of address that in two ways so

[00:32:24] on the one hand yes trauma is trauma in terms of the way that most symptoms of post-traumatic

[00:32:31] stress manifest themselves not to say that everyone is going to fit the exact diagnostic

[00:32:39] criteria like a lock-in key and I try to put it out there that you know just because somebody might

[00:32:44] not meet the exact criteria doesn't mean they're not struggling with post-traumatic stress. PTSD

[00:32:50] is actually kind of a difficult diagnosis to make instead of just like here's a list of you

[00:32:55] know 10 criteria you have to have five it's all these subcategories and you have to have

[00:33:00] a certain amount from each category but I will say that on the one hand yes trauma is trauma

[00:33:05] in terms of how it shows up in those symptoms and on the other hand I think that especially

[00:33:11] post-traumatic stress related to coercive control specifically is fairly unique in terms of the

[00:33:19] way that it impacts a person's psyche and also the way that it impacts their ability to have

[00:33:26] a healthy relationship with the person or people that are trying to help them you know because

[00:33:31] people kind of go one of two ways which is not uncommon with trauma people tend to react to trauma

[00:33:37] in extremes they either don't want anyone ever having that kind of quote-unquote power over them

[00:33:43] again they don't want to see a therapist they don't want anyone who's who's in like a one-up

[00:33:47] position right which I totally get that if you've been through that I completely understand

[00:33:53] or they come to therapy and they have a really hard time voicing their needs you know when

[00:33:59] I say something that triggers them or when something comes up that they're not happy with

[00:34:03] they just kind of are like okay I guess I'll go along with this instead of saying hey that actually

[00:34:08] really triggered me right so it's good to be mindful about that when you're working with folks

[00:34:13] who've been you know through the ringer of coercive control that that can kind of have

[00:34:19] its own unique challenges as well. What do you say to the people that are denying

[00:34:23] that they've been through trauma? I mean I don't deal with this super often because

[00:34:27] obviously people come to me generally because they want to recover from trauma but I've definitely

[00:34:34] worked with my share of people who have been through something and I gotta say it's typically

[00:34:40] people who have been through some sort of sexual assault that they are maybe not in a place of

[00:34:47] being willing to see that what happened was an assault or was trauma or rape or whatever term

[00:34:55] you want to use for it and it's always kind of a delicate dance because you know you don't want to

[00:35:01] just be like oh that was trauma you know if you don't think the person is ready to hear that and

[00:35:08] I've never really worked with a person who just was like that wasn't trauma I don't want to talk

[00:35:13] about it leave it alone it's more kind of been a gentle back and forth of like well based

[00:35:21] on my experience I've worked with people who've been through this and it kind of meets the

[00:35:26] your marks of trauma but I'm also not going to tell you how to perceive your own experience

[00:35:32] you know I'm not going to say like I'm the expert that's trauma you better believe it you know

[00:35:36] especially if they've come out of a hierarchy yeah exactly yeah situation right yeah that's

[00:35:41] a slippery slope yeah and I'll just say you know you are absolutely entitled to your

[00:35:45] perception of what happened and it's okay for us to hold different perceptions of it right

[00:35:49] now that's fine and I can imagine some people just going that's too hard to deal with yeah and

[00:35:53] that's why it's important when you're working in trauma recovery and I say this to clients all

[00:35:57] the time but this is for clinicians too you can't just barrel ahead right right like there

[00:36:02] are times where you need to pause or be like we're just gonna have to revisit that another

[00:36:07] time because it's too much it's too overwhelming it's flooding it can even be re traumatizing

[00:36:13] to try to like get in there and try to convince somebody to see something a certain way so

[00:36:18] trauma work is really a delicate balance between like pushing and challenging and also knowing when

[00:36:25] to take a break from pushing and challenging and where does PTSD and complex PTSD fit into that

[00:36:31] and could you maybe break that down a little bit for our listeners because that's a term we use

[00:36:34] but we've never really explained it yes so the book that we use in America to diagnose

[00:36:41] mental health issues is called the DSM and then internationally the book that's used is called

[00:36:45] the ICD and they line up frequently but not always they're definitely different and so at this point

[00:36:52] in time in the DSM which is what we use in America the diagnosis is post-traumatic stress

[00:36:59] disorder or PTSD there is no diagnosis of complex PTSD at this time this book changes every

[00:37:06] few years so who knows what the future will hold right but in the worldwide book the ICD

[00:37:13] there's PTSD and then there's complex PTSD so that's the one where it's kind of recognized at this

[00:37:19] point okay and all the politics of those two books is just more than we need to get saved that for

[00:37:26] another that's a whole nother discussion but yeah so when it comes to PTSD as I was mentioning

[00:37:32] earlier there are these different categories of symptoms you have to have a certain number

[00:37:37] of each one to qualify for a diagnosis and roughly those are intrusive symptoms like having

[00:37:44] intrusive thoughts or nightmares or things like that they are avoidance that you avoid

[00:37:49] things that remind you of what happened negative thoughts and mood related to what happened to you

[00:37:56] and what they call arousal or reactivity and that's things like being irritable having an

[00:38:01] exaggerated response when people startle you hypervigilance things like that I mean I think

[00:38:06] I could share this whenever I'm driving and Sarah's in her phone even if I'm not in my phone

[00:38:10] but normally it manifests like this I'll be driving and I'll be breaking for a stop light

[00:38:14] and she'll be on the phone she'll lift her head oh my god no my startle my startle is not just you

[00:38:19] Nip when anyone's driving if they don't stop like quickly enough or like I feel like there's

[00:38:24] some a car ahead and they're not slowing down I brace for accident and I know it I know that

[00:38:29] I'm fine but it's like just totally a physical response yeah yeah that can be exaggerated

[00:38:33] startle response maybe a little hypervigilance you know yeah a totally hypervigilance and then

[00:38:38] when we get to complex PTSD it's all of those things that I just said plus kind of three

[00:38:46] other areas which are problems in your interpersonal relationships just problems like forming and

[00:38:52] maintaining healthy relationships having trouble regulating how you express your emotion and also

[00:38:59] having significant negative self-concept or thoughts or ideas about yourself so it's kind of like PTSD

[00:39:05] plus these three things so that's kind of the difference and another potential differentiation

[00:39:12] although this one is not official is that oftentimes people who have been through what we

[00:39:17] call like single incident trauma like somebody who survives like a horrible car accident or

[00:39:23] a shooting or something like that but they have no other trauma history if they develop PTSD it will

[00:39:29] likely be PTSD not complex PTSD whereas people who have been through chronic repeated trauma

[00:39:38] like ongoing ongoing abuse whether it's in childhood or adulthood or unfortunately both

[00:39:44] that tends to manifest more as complex PTSD when it's been kind of chronic repeated over

[00:39:50] months or years well that's my non-clinician not therapy observation as a child only a therapist

[00:39:57] and a cult survivor is that a lot of the survivors we seem to interact with have complex PTSD

[00:40:02] especially the negative self-talk the zero to 100 emotional outbursts and it's certainly all the

[00:40:09] things that you said before for both and at least for me being hypervigilant I don't know if

[00:40:13] I have the negative self-talk thing but there's self-doubt that I think almost everybody has

[00:40:18] exiting a cult self-doubt is healthy I mean I wouldn't throw it under a PTSD unless it's

[00:40:23] yeah extreme like a certain amount of self-doubt is is healthy yeah but when you take it to an

[00:40:29] extreme then it's can become debilitating yeah it's healthy yeah hey a little bit culty listeners

[00:40:41] bless your little bitty hearts for helping support this podcast you asked us to put a link up

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[00:40:56] kidding around when you said you wanted to help this podcast keep on cranking out episodes you

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[00:41:42] culty dot com slash support or the link in our instagram bio every little bit helps keep a

[00:41:47] little bit culty tracking along thanks again we adore you this episode is sponsored by better help

[00:42:03] what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe

[00:42:08] it's getting eight hours of sleep i mean that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well i

[00:42:14] definitely have some non-negotiables like i'm in vancouver right now and i'm spending

[00:42:17] literally as much time as i can outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it

[00:42:23] nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and i start to

[00:42:26] feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks i try to not

[00:42:32] miss it and i know i'm just gonna feel so much better all around if i make it a priority i get

[00:42:37] so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps

[00:42:41] me clear my mind so i can focus on what i really need and sometimes what i don't need like i

[00:42:45] don't need to be overbooking myself just because i hate to say no to people you know what i mean

[00:42:48] thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy

[00:42:53] give better help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited

[00:42:57] to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed

[00:43:01] therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge look even when we know

[00:43:06] what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no

[00:43:09] time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy

[00:43:14] day with better help visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10 off your first month

[00:43:19] that's better help h e l p dot com slash culty meals bring people together but for many families

[00:43:27] providing their next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating in macy's annual

[00:43:33] feeding the hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through

[00:43:38] january 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue

[00:43:44] feeding the hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries

[00:43:49] together we can combat hunger in our local communities at macy's do you have like a couple

[00:43:56] of nuggets tools in your toolbox that we could share with our listeners of daily habits to counter

[00:44:01] act those things a way that i i like to explain ptsd and cptsd to people is that it's kind of

[00:44:08] like a broken time machine where when you have ptsd or cptsd your brain and your nervous system

[00:44:18] can go from the present to the past in a heartbeat right it's like a time machine you don't have

[00:44:23] any control over you know one time a trigger might you know difficult but you're mostly here in

[00:44:30] your adult self and you're able to handle it and another time that same trigger can make

[00:44:34] you feel like you're tan again right you're this like helpless child in this awful situation or

[00:44:39] whatever your story may be right so i think it's good to remember for people to remember that

[00:44:44] feeling like your brain and your nervous system get the past and the present mixed up is extremely

[00:44:50] normal with this issue right that's part of the deal and the way that i try to help people in

[00:44:58] terms of nuggets is that when your brain and nervous system get you know thrown into the

[00:45:03] past at some point you've got a couple of options in terms of coping skills you can try to do things

[00:45:09] to bring yourself back to the present moment to reorient yourself to the present the most

[00:45:15] well-known example of that is the five four three two one technique i don't know if you guys are

[00:45:19] familiar tell us there's different versions of it this is by no means the version but it's

[00:45:24] like okay literally saying out loud if you can or to yourself if you can't what are five things

[00:45:29] i can see right now what are four things i can hear right now what are three things i can feel on my

[00:45:36] skin what are two things i can smell and then the one thing i usually go for what's one thing i'm

[00:45:41] grateful for but it can literally be anything else but it's like you're using your five senses

[00:45:47] to be like i am here and now i am not 10 years ago or 20 years ago i am in the present moment

[00:45:54] right i'm not going to say i actually did those things but i do remember being

[00:45:58] in situations where i felt detached and then i want to have my kids i would immediately just go

[00:46:02] right into the world being a parent forced us to evaluate what's more important and also to be present

[00:46:08] going off and playing in our brains or what's right in front of us and what we're raising and it

[00:46:13] allowed us to be that we're grounded i don't know if is the appropriate word but allow us to have

[00:46:17] joy in our lives during a traumatic situation remind us that there's going to be kind of

[00:46:21] a light at the end of this and that's temporary just holding that space in my head i think

[00:46:26] kind of kept me going yeah it's like an informal version of what natalie just said you can't go in

[00:46:30] the past right kids are very much here right now it's an option so what are you enjoying that

[00:46:36] exactly so there's trying to bring yourself back to the present and then there's also if you

[00:46:41] feel like that's maybe not doable for you in the moment then there's ways to try to like soothe

[00:46:47] yourself while you're experiencing this unwanted trip to the past an example of that would be

[00:46:53] i really like christin neff she's this psychologist who's done a bunch of work on self-compassion her

[00:46:59] kind of three-step self-compassion process is to number one say what's going on so if you're somebody

[00:47:06] who feels like you're back and you're 10 years old you say you know i'm really suffering i feel

[00:47:11] like i'm never gonna get out of this i feel really hopeless and awful then number two is to

[00:47:16] remind yourself that you're not alone that you're connected to other people who are maybe

[00:47:20] not doing so great in this moment and then number three is to do something concrete to comfort yourself

[00:47:26] so she'll say like you know to give yourself a hug or put a hand on your heart and just say like if

[00:47:32] you would to a child like it's going to be okay sweetie we're going to get through this this is

[00:47:36] going to end so to do something like that to at least try to comfort yourself until you can come

[00:47:41] back to the present i really like that one and that's certainly something that came up in my

[00:47:45] early trauma therapy when i first got an anxium because i realized i didn't know how to self-sude

[00:47:51] most people don't yeah i didn't anyway even before an axiom and then an axiom i was taught that i

[00:47:58] didn't even have those needs those needs were not legitimate and then i came out and you're

[00:48:05] making up for lost time but yeah i'm making up for a lot of time but like that's something

[00:48:09] that i've learned to even express to nippy when i get anxious or i'm triggered and i can be

[00:48:13] irritable and all sorts of things you're human whatever yeah i'm human but but but that's us

[00:48:19] like a lot of people have asked us over the this podcast like how have we survived as a couple and

[00:48:23] what are some of the things and i think that's one of the things i've learned to do is to say to nippy

[00:48:27] bath bombs yes bath bombs but in terms of the terms of therapy it's been great it's been giving

[00:48:32] gift giving really easy for me to say to you i'm really upset right now i just need because

[00:48:37] there's been times where you're like i don't know how to deal with you like you're crazy

[00:48:41] right now and it's true i've been like borderline nervous breakdown over the last five years multiple

[00:48:46] times i don't even know what i what what you call it but in those moments nippy sometimes like this

[00:48:51] is not my jurisdiction i don't know what to do i'm like all you need to do is hug me that's all

[00:48:55] i want right now as a hug and there was a while that i couldn't even communicate that because

[00:48:58] i'd been taught that i don't have any needs anything i want from the outside world

[00:49:04] anything i'm attached to is just my own disintegration and my own deficiency and i have

[00:49:07] to evolve that so yes i need to learn to south soothe but there's in a partnership to be able

[00:49:12] to say like can you just hold me for a minute like it's all yeah definitely so both yeah absolutely

[00:49:18] and you mentioning being on the verge of a nervous breakdown makes me think of one other

[00:49:23] thing that might be helpful for folks which is the window of tolerance have you guys talked

[00:49:28] about that before remind me so the window of tolerance is this kind of zone where we are

[00:49:34] in a good space to put it in an articulate way like where we're doing okay emotionally we're pretty

[00:49:40] balanced we can take information in we can engage with the world and when you're a trauma survivor

[00:49:47] triggers or memories or things can throw you outside of your window of tolerance

[00:49:52] and people tend to either go one direction or the other but a lot of people go both

[00:49:59] so think of it as an actual kind of like window sometimes when something triggers you you go up

[00:50:05] into what we call hyper arousal and that is emotional dysregulation you can't calm down

[00:50:11] you're kind of all over the place crying you know you can't sit still that sort of thing

[00:50:16] yeah or sometimes people also go down into hypo arousal which is where you shut down

[00:50:22] you numb out you dissociate you maybe even fall asleep right that's nippy nippy oh my god nippy's

[00:50:29] raising his hand this is why i wait this this is explains everything not only we should pay you

[00:50:33] how much of your hourly rate so it's good to know for people for number one to know do you always

[00:50:39] tend to go in one direction or do you can you go either way because it's different for every person

[00:50:45] and then it's important to figure out what coping skills will help you because if you're in

[00:50:49] hyper arousal you need coping skills that are going to calm you down right bring you back into

[00:50:55] intolerance whereas if you're in hypo arousal you need to be like woken up activated to be brought

[00:51:01] back up into your window of tolerance right working out sir yes absolutely no like cardio is is a

[00:51:07] coping skill for when you're in hypo arousal because it forces your body to start like waking up

[00:51:13] and it gets my endorphins going someone we saw someone a therapist and they tried to write a

[00:51:18] prescription for what was it sir like well basically they said sir you've got anxiety nippy you've got

[00:51:23] depression i mean that's a more like just look where i just look what i just what i can win we're like

[00:51:29] thanks for that great analysis didn't need that one other tidbit about the window of tolerance that

[00:51:34] it's good to keep in mind is that it's not static it is constantly expanding and shrinking

[00:51:40] there are times when we're doing especially well we're pretty resilient like your window of

[00:51:44] tolerance is big it's going to take a lot to throw you out of it and then there are other times where

[00:51:50] either things in your life or things in the world or both have your window of tolerance like it's just

[00:51:55] this little tiny little slit you know that anything one thing goes wrong and you're thrown out of it

[00:52:01] yeah yeah well you just kind of explain the last five years because i think you know nippy and i

[00:52:07] are truthfully doing surprisingly well considering what we've been through and i think so even

[00:52:12] just be able to make this podcast as a sign of that and we've grown tremendously through it but i think

[00:52:16] with the times when we've been at major conflict is when i'm in the hyper and he's in the hypo and

[00:52:22] we're just so far apart because not only am i so hyper and i'm all the things you said but then i

[00:52:28] get resentful that he's so like gone you know and he's probably so resentful that i'm so out

[00:52:35] there like we're just so nowhere near each other and then when we're in the same window

[00:52:39] of tolerance like when we flow just to have that sort of like those new words to be able to say

[00:52:44] like nippy we've started this new thing where we do a little power meeting in the morning and like

[00:52:49] go through all the things we're going to try to accomplish together today and then the end of

[00:52:51] the day we check in because otherwise i tend to like fire machine gun questions and like things at

[00:52:57] him throughout the day and he's like i'm not in that mode so like we've we've had designated

[00:53:01] times for like talking about and plant because i'm a massive planner it's funny to hear you're

[00:53:06] yeah well it's quite enjoyable yeah enjoying what is that i i feel like now we have a new word

[00:53:12] to be like so where are you in your window of tolerance like how are you doing there's also

[00:53:16] versions to explain it to kids as well like you'd need to look those up because i'm not as well

[00:53:20] versed in that since i don't work with kids but it can also be really helpful for kids too to

[00:53:25] understand that concept and to give credit where credit is due that is from dan seagal who's a

[00:53:30] oh right yeah big big name in the field so he's the one who kind of came up with that

[00:53:34] conceptualization do you have any tips for our listeners how to find a therapist oh gosh yes

[00:53:40] so i know that you guys are in canada so it's a different situation we are moving to atlanta

[00:53:47] yeah we are oh my goodness congratulations thank you thanks most of our listeners are in the us

[00:53:53] ah gotcha okay yeah so what i would suggest you kind of got two options it's like are you

[00:53:58] looking for somebody who takes insurance or can you pay out of pocket there's a whole

[00:54:02] nether podcast episode about how broken the healthcare system is in in america i was gonna say i hate

[00:54:09] that i have to explain this to people because it should be so much easier and and better but this

[00:54:15] is how it is so if you're looking for somebody who's out of pocket you're gonna have an easier

[00:54:20] time okay if you do that i would just suggest that you go to google and you type in psychology

[00:54:26] today therapist finder it's certainly not the only online directory for therapists but it

[00:54:30] is the biggest one right so i would go to that i would filter it for whatever issue you're looking

[00:54:36] for and start contacting people if you're going the route of you need somebody who's in network

[00:54:41] with your insurance it is going to be a tougher battle i i'm sorry to say you should still start

[00:54:47] with the psychology today therapist finder okay you should filter for your insurance and then

[00:54:52] you should contact at least 10 therapists because some people i say that and they're like

[00:54:58] that sounds like a lot and this is based on years of experience trying to help people find people in

[00:55:03] network with their insurance company because if you contact 10 you'll probably hear back from five

[00:55:10] and there will be maybe two or three good options from those five and this is for a host

[00:55:15] of reasons a lot of people who take insurance are ridiculously overworked and underpaid so they

[00:55:20] don't have time to respond to everybody who reaches out to them and most of them are booked

[00:55:25] full so it's hard to find somebody who a responds to you and b has space that is how i would suggest

[00:55:32] people do that once they're if it's specifically for people who are recovering from calls anything

[00:55:37] specifically that you'd say to them about like what you're looking for asking them like you know

[00:55:42] other than do you have any education and call recovery like what's other than the obvious

[00:55:46] sure i think that the first obvious thing would be you need to find somebody who's a trauma

[00:55:50] specialist okay regardless of if they know much about cults or not start with that pool

[00:55:56] and then once you get to that pool start to try to look for people who mention things on their

[00:56:01] websites or their profiles about cults religious trauma things like that and if you don't find

[00:56:07] anything then absolutely ask them during the consult a lot of people don't realize that

[00:56:12] most therapists do free consultations like 15 minute phone call whatever and that is not just

[00:56:18] for the therapist to ask you questions that is also for you to ask the therapist questions

[00:56:23] and that is when you should say do you have any knowledge or experience in this area right

[00:56:27] right in my opinion you shouldn't have to pay somebody for a first session to find that out

[00:56:34] yeah i agree yeah i have a psychologist that i've been working with for a couple years

[00:56:39] since leaving who's not cult informed at all trauma informed a little bit i think but

[00:56:44] he just in some ways my first three sessions were just explaining what he was looking at yeah

[00:56:49] what he was looking at and then in some ways it was interesting because he asked questions

[00:56:53] that were so like because he didn't have the call but that were actually great but

[00:56:57] it'd be like he'd be like wait so you have no needs so like so those are needs for

[00:57:02] a serve to survive what about needs to thrive like actually have a flood i was like oh that's why

[00:57:08] everyone was so miserable because we weren't allowed to have anything that was like because

[00:57:13] we're just called attachments things that you were striving for that you wanted to make you

[00:57:16] happy were made bad right as attachments and i was like oh my god i can have those things again and

[00:57:21] and be okay yeah just a quick nexium tangent i don't know if we've ever told this story but the

[00:57:26] other day i said to nippy i think you'll appreciate this as a as a therapist is that they said the

[00:57:32] emotions were that like when you have the world the way that you want it like your expectations

[00:57:37] lined up with the world the way that it is that that's happiness oh so the audience we could

[00:57:41] see my like hands aligned and they would call that world's aligned and that when you're upset it's

[00:57:46] your worlds are not aligned the world the the is not the way you want it to be so the happier

[00:57:52] you are it's just because your worlds are aligned or your attachment is being met and so

[00:57:56] even if you were happy it was not okay because they would say well you're just afraid that it's

[00:58:01] going to come apart again so there's fear underneath the happiness oh gosh right oh boy so you

[00:58:06] can never really be happy you can never really be happy there was transcendent joy that you were

[00:58:11] working towards in the sort of like buddhist enlightenment kind of way and keith would say

[00:58:14] there's the happy path and then there's the joy path and most people are just on the happy

[00:58:18] path and they're just trying to do things to make you happy and of course we all know happiness

[00:58:21] does not come from the outside world sometimes yeah sometimes it does in the form of many good

[00:58:27] things including children which was also an attachment according to keith abley anyway so i just thought

[00:58:33] you'd appreciate that and the other day i was having a good moment i said oh my god my

[00:58:36] worlds are so aligned right now nippy and then i was like what did i just oh no i just said it's like

[00:58:40] five years out and i just said it like it's okay yeah it's it's hard to shake that stuff and it's

[00:58:46] interesting i thank you for sharing that with me because it makes me think about working in

[00:58:50] addiction because so much of addiction work is about acceptance and about how the world will

[00:58:55] not always be in alignment with how you want it to be and unless you want to suffer you

[00:59:01] really need to find acceptance around certain things that ultimately is much more realistic

[00:59:06] than trying to get the world to line up with how you want everything to be yeah i mean understanding

[00:59:10] that your expectations are not always reality is that that is a nugget i got from my my work there

[00:59:15] that i i do hold to be true and helpful because that's good to be more fluid about that in life

[00:59:22] right as a toolset but now i'm really working towards doing things that quote make me happy

[00:59:28] which i would never have said in next name because that would be quote out of cause that's

[00:59:32] not an at cause statement nothing can make me happy i make myself happy which there's some truth in that

[00:59:37] but that also can be used against you when you're being hurt and abused yeah that's my ass chapping

[00:59:43] is like how these beautiful statements about living healthfully can be twisted for the leaders

[00:59:48] gain you know maybe did you have an ass chapping before natalie's no no i was gonna ask natalie

[00:59:53] oh yeah natalie what's yours about about the industry or about like you know sure i would

[00:59:57] say i mean the looking for a therapist thing just you know the constant ass chap of the way that

[01:00:03] healthcare in america works especially mental health care but the whole thing and then i would just say

[01:00:07] yeah that we've made a lot of strides in therapists and psychologists understanding

[01:00:12] cults and coercive control but we've got a long way to go and that definitely chaps my ass

[01:00:18] yeah that's fair that's a good one do you have one nip i was thinking about why that might exist

[01:00:22] in the bureaucracy of it but it's no different than why other bureaucracy stuff exists

[01:00:26] someone stands again from not having people aware to a certain level it keeps the abuses in place

[01:00:32] i also don't really understand like even just trying to help people get therapists like this whole

[01:00:36] people can't be therapists across state lines thing like i'm trying to connect people who need

[01:00:40] therapists and i'm like i know this person like you know natalie in la but you're like how does

[01:00:44] that why can't you do it across state lines there's a thing called cypact i think it's a

[01:00:49] thing in like over half the states now it's a thing to try to allow for across state lines

[01:00:54] practicing however it's not going to be a thing in california for a while for political reasons

[01:01:00] that i won't even get into but i disagree with and think are ridiculous thank you so much natalie

[01:01:06] of course i feel like we got a lot personally best part of well thank you that's part of our job

[01:01:11] no i'm so glad that we connected i mean thank you for doing the the bentino masaro stuff because

[01:01:17] that's what got my attention and then that's what connected us so i really appreciate this

[01:01:22] opportunity everything that you guys have done in this room has just been so amazing i hope you

[01:01:27] guys can can keep doing it oh thanks natalie that means a lot to us of course it's worth it

[01:01:33] thank you for that therapy session thank you you're welcome super helpful that was great my

[01:01:38] tolerance just flew through the roof imagine yourself walking into a forest you can see the path

[01:01:47] and the trees high above you the air is crisp you are walking towards your happy place allegedly

[01:01:55] allegedly say it with me anything said here i'll miss podcast about alleged cults alleged mlem schemes

[01:02:03] alleged douchebaggery mindfuckery criminality spiritual fraud or the like is offered purely

[01:02:10] as commentary because the views and opinions expressed on a little bit culty do not necessarily

[01:02:16] reflect on official policy or position of the podcast and any content provided by our guests

[01:02:23] bloggers sponsors or authors are their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion

[01:02:29] group club organization business individual anyone or anything so just let these words drift into

[01:02:36] your mind without needing to focus on any of them you are great you are capable

[01:02:43] you deserve to be happy nobody's mad at you unless you're actually a narcissistic culty criminal

[01:02:49] if that's you cut that shit out don't be a fuckwad but if that's not you again you are great

[01:02:57] you are capable you deserve to be happy a little bit culty loves you that was so interesting and

[01:03:07] so helpful i think for both of us and on that tangible practical level i also want to share

[01:03:13] that we are very proud to be working with ixa this year for the annual conference online what's

[01:03:20] ixa sarah oh thanks for asking nippy the international cultic studies association and from june 24th to

[01:03:27] 26 there is incredible online conferences there's actually going to be over 60 sessions 70 speakers

[01:03:33] five workshops the conference theme is exploring the needs of people who leave controlling groups

[01:03:39] relationships and environments so i think a lot of our listeners would benefit from this

[01:03:45] nippy and i will be having a booth i'm not sure what that means if it's a kissing booth sarah

[01:03:50] i don't actually know it's a virtual online booth we're going to find out more but i wanted to

[01:03:55] put the plug in should build one in our house and then kiss in it no well you know i don't know

[01:04:02] okay so anyway check out the ixa annual conference 2022 online and hope to see you there

[01:04:08] and you know what i realized is that i don't know if there's any therapy related word salad but

[01:04:14] maybe you could just share something have you have you found any good ones recently

[01:04:18] yeah if there's therapy based word salad you have the wrong therapist yeah for real

[01:04:22] like that's a good indication you need a new therapist uh run look i hate to keep banging on

[01:04:28] the bento box sorry not sorry but god damn is this do come up with some shit and i can't

[01:04:34] let them have the hall pass for this one because it's so self-angriendizing but here goes the word

[01:04:39] salad is in response to a question what's the difference with my life and yours and here we go

[01:04:48] while you live in a personal world of your own making experiencing infinite existence through a

[01:04:54] twisted keyhole made of painfully small ideas all the while assuming that you know life

[01:04:59] i live out beyond the stars seeing all directions simultaneously yet still do not assume i know

[01:05:05] a single thing when a day has passed for you and you go to sleep as if having added something

[01:05:14] to yourself that day i have counted an eternity and go to sleep not remembering who i was even on

[01:05:20] that afternoon it's probably a good thing for you your world consists of the tides of pain

[01:05:25] and pleasure while mine consists of a steady stream of indestructual bliss where you see a world

[01:05:32] i see nothing where you see nothing i see the world see i mean at first that kind of makes sense like

[01:05:40] you can follow it i mean it sounds totally pompous and holier than now and putting oneself up on

[01:05:46] a pedestal but then it just doesn't actually make sense that's such a great word salad i'm just

[01:05:50] like where's the douchebag convention when is this guy gonna be there isn't there a douchebag

[01:05:54] convention didn't he have a free workshop coming up i don't know man and it goes on if you go to his

[01:05:59] page it's just like i would actually love for one of our listeners to infiltrate the douchebag

[01:06:06] convention his free workshop that's listed on this page and report back i'll do it i'm gonna save

[01:06:11] one of the week t-shirts for that it starts today actually oh my dad's birthday is tomorrow i got

[01:06:17] i have a son and i have a kid i'm not asking you to do it but that reminds me i have a

[01:06:21] kid that's stuck in the tide of pain and pleasure you know it's just you know but i do want to say

[01:06:27] speaking of that i i really do appreciate everyone who's been sending the stories showing how they

[01:06:32] listen to a little bit culty in the background oh yeah we've at least four view week shirts going

[01:06:36] out in the mail this week i'm shocked at how many people want them but i'm really relieved that

[01:06:41] i don't have to bring them to atlanta and that i also don't have to throw them out because

[01:06:44] i am a pack rat we don't have that many so don't go promising i'm not gonna over promise

[01:06:49] the world all right thanks guys for the support i hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did

[01:06:55] deuces peace out

[01:07:12] let's keep the conversation going we'll be back soon with more episodes of a little bit

[01:07:16] culty with more experts and survivors and sometimes experts who are survivors as well as some familiar

[01:07:22] faces from the vow from hbo if you've got suggestions or questions on upcoming topics find us on

[01:07:28] instagram at a little bit culty and for more background on what brought me here my memoir

[01:07:33] scarred the true story of how i escaped nexium the cult that bound my life is available on

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[01:08:10] culty is executive produced by me your co-host sarah edmondson and anthony nippy aims that's me

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[01:08:24] theme song cultivated is by john bryant and co-written by nigel assalan i'm sarah edmondson

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