‘Uncultured:’ Daniella Mestyanek Young on COG and the US Military (Pt. 1)

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access. To powder skiing legacy. To independent spirit. North where easy to get to. Meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:27] The views and opinions expressed by a little bit culty are those of the hosts, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast. No they don't.

[00:00:38] Any of the ridiculously thought provoking content provided by our guests, bloggers, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything. Also we're not doctors, psychologists or her supreme holiness, Gwyneth Peltrow.

[00:00:52] We're just mortals trying to make a gluten free, holistically helpful podcast that helps in forms and entertains and maybe moisturizes silky silky smooth. Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here. And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband, and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC.

[00:01:20] A podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side. We've been there and back again. A little about us, true story, we met and fell in love in a cult. And then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge.

[00:01:33] The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow, now in its second season. I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred, the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life.

[00:01:45] Look at us, couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night. We interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe. We gotta schedule that, that's separate.

[00:01:59] So it's two days we gotta hang out? We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium, still on that journey. And we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers.

[00:02:09] We know all too well that culty things happen. It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level market.

[00:02:21] This stuff really is everywhere. The cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we. Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com Welcome back everybody to this week's...

[00:02:43] You're gonna jump right into it like that? So last week our episode with Kate Amber dropped and people have been excited because we've been promising a landmark episode. I just want to reiterate... You've been promising a lot of things, Sarah. And under delivering a landmark.

[00:03:04] There's more to come there. There's more to come. And we were just actually at this retreat... Game of Thrones? Called Game of Thrones. No, it's called the other name of Titans. G-O-T, Gaddling of Titans. Up at MIT.

[00:03:19] Up at MIT in Boston and we were one of the speakers as a couple. And one of the first things that people were clear to tell us is that their group was not a cult or very proudly a cult, depending on who you are.

[00:03:31] Yeah, yeah. Every time I saw that we just kind of sat there and it's like... You know how the villain in the movie sits there calmly and they put the silence around their gun?

[00:03:37] They're just kind of twisting while the other person's talking. We're like, oh, you're not in a cult? We're just kind of waiting for our tone. Waiting to snipe them. Listen, we were joking about it, but it's a similar thing.

[00:03:52] Like there was a retreat, everyone goes once a year and we were really honored to be speaking at it. In their defense there's no Vanduush. There's no Vanduush, there's no charismatic leader.

[00:04:00] I mean, it's just like any group where people are really dedicated to a particular cause will have cult elements. But we were happy to say by the end that it didn't seem like a destructive cult. Listen, I had fun.

[00:04:12] I had a great time and it's always good to listen to people who have a lane expertise in fields and particularly in business because I kind of feel like I was out of business, you know, that world for 10 years.

[00:04:22] And to hear people kind of like drop knowledge was awesome. Yeah. And a lot of the people there were quite high up in landmark and knew Warner Earhart very well. And done it for a while. So I think there's going to be more to come on that topic.

[00:04:35] You know where landmark gets a hall pass that here is like their sales tactics because they're so aggressive people just kind of go, oh, they accept it. Oh, that's just what they do, whatever. But I think that is a major red flag.

[00:04:48] It is for most people it puts me off. But like some people go, okay, I get it. You're trying to grow this thing or whatever. Well, it's off putting.

[00:04:56] It's off putting to every single person, even people that stay in kind of like the sashes are off putting to us. We were like, yeah, yeah, we get it. It's a dojo. Right. That's a problem and he's kind of normalized.

[00:05:07] So all that being said, more to come on the topic, but I hope you enjoyed last week's episode. And this week. Danielle Mastienek Young. Okay, I'm going to break this one down. We have a catalog of close to 100 guests.

[00:05:20] Maybe some double episodes, maybe, you know, maybe a little bit less. If we're having like a draft pick for like a team, she's for sure in my first round. Team for what? It doesn't matter just like, sure. Dodgeball, volleyball, Danielle first round pick apps of fucking Lutley. Right?

[00:05:39] Because you know she's going to run laps around you literally literally and she'll knit your fucking uniforms in real time. This woman has mad skills. You just got to check her out. Like I can't so impressive. It's impressive to the point where I was like jealous.

[00:05:52] I was like, God damn it. Where's the gaps in this girl? And also like reading her book, which you're going to sing. You hear me sing the praises of this book throughout the whole episode.

[00:06:01] But like the whole time reading it or listening to it in my case, I was like, holy shit. There's not even a word. Everything sounds trite in terms of what she went through. Like there's no word like horrific.

[00:06:14] Horrific doesn't even encapsulate what she's gone through in her life. And I'm going to save that for you for the book so it's a surprise. But the quote and I think I say this in the episode as well, but I'll say it twice.

[00:06:22] So the New York Times quote was a propulsive memoir delivered in the honest tones of a woman who didn't always think she lived to tell her story. And that's how I felt reading it.

[00:06:32] I'm like, well there were so many times where I thought for sure that she was going to die. And then I knew that she didn't because she wrote the book which I was reading and I'd been emailing with her. But other than that, I was like, holy shit.

[00:06:43] I also feel like it needs to be made into a movie or a series or something. I hope it's made into it. Let's go into why that is Sarah. Daniella is like we said quite the accomplished woman.

[00:06:53] She became a captain in the US Army and became one of our nation's first females to conduct deliberate ground combat operations when she volunteered to serve on the female engagement team. This won her the Presidential Volunteer Service Award.

[00:07:06] She then went on to get a master's degree in industrial and organization psychology from the Harvard Extension School. And I know what that means now that we've just been to Harvard last week. That's totally again, baller Daniella.

[00:07:17] She's even written a book titled Uncultured, A Memoir, which you can check out in our show notes. And again, I cannot recommend it enough. You can also get the audible version of it. However, in her youth, Daniella was raised in the infamous Children of God cult.

[00:07:31] Discussingly, the Children of God founder David Burke told members that God was love and love with sex. So there should be no limits on sex regardless of age or relationship. Some very big leaps there in your belief system, David. I've heard that one before.

[00:07:44] The violence within this particular cult is also some of the worst that we've heard about violence and sexual abuse of children. Please trigger warning for this episode and also for the book. Major trigger warning.

[00:07:56] Daniella has turned this negative into a positive and is now a renowned keynote speaker on topics having to do with group behavior and where extreme cultic thinking permeates into normal groups and communities around us. Without further ado, Daniella Mastanek Young. First round draft page.

[00:08:22] Daniella, welcome to a little bit culty. Thank you so much for having me. This is super exciting. For us too. And for those who can't see Daniella, she is dressed to the nines wearing amazing red earrings that match your red lipstick.

[00:08:35] You make me feel underdressed, but that's okay. Is that an infrared sauna behind you? It is an infrared sauna behind me, which I say is arguably the best thing you've ever heard of two veterans doing with their disability money.

[00:08:47] And Sarah, to you. I had this moment when I became an author and I'm so far outside of anyone's appearance control that I said, you know what? I'm going to wear whatever I want the rest of my life.

[00:09:01] Oh, I'm dying to dive into the healing part of like what you've been doing because I feel like that's where the at least for me.

[00:09:09] If you don't know this, but Daniella and I have been emailing each other and like kind of fangirling with each other because I mean we're going to get into it. But her story, her memoir was really inspiring for me and very cathartic emotional.

[00:09:24] And just such a deeply emotionally honest and vulnerable exploration of the entire part of her. I can't believe you remember some of the stuff that you shared, Daniella. I was like, how did you access all of that? That's my first question.

[00:09:40] You know, first I would say I think it's really beautiful because I was reading scarred while I was writing and cultured and that was helping me right contextualize my story. And then to hear you kind of say the same thing like it helped you.

[00:09:54] I think that's just one of the coolest things about memoir and telling our stories. So as far as memory goes right? I think memory has always been one of my problems. I think I have what they call highly specific autobiographical memory.

[00:10:09] Like I can still tell you the birthdays of everyone that was at that birthday party in the book, in the cult when I was seven years old, like all hundred people from the cult. This is not the way they test for highly specific autobiographical memory.

[00:10:22] But when I heard of it, I was like, oh, that's why I remember. And mostly I love a life that maybe you wouldn't want to remember that specifically. But of course the other thing I think that is interesting about memoir is you are sort of reconstructing these memories.

[00:10:37] You know, you have bits and pieces and I honestly didn't realize how much disassociation I did to survive my life until readers said to me, wow, you describe disassociation so well.

[00:10:51] And then for me too, part of why I wanted to do my book with a co-writer who was like a normal American woman with a nice life and an easy background was like for this very purpose of like how do you go back unearth these memories and then describe it to like normal people.

[00:11:13] But in a way that will connect for them. So even the process of writing was a lot of I would write my best version and send it to her and she would just ask me a million questions. And then we would kind of clarify and clarify and clarify.

[00:11:29] And of course some things are our best guesses, right? There could have been 25 kids in the commune not 22. Right. You do your best. Well, I want to dive into all of your writing processes and journey and all that stuff.

[00:11:41] But for those listeners who have not done their homework and we will have given our little bit culty listeners the homework of of course reading or listening to your book, which I listened. I have a hard time reading. I do have a hard copy that you sent me.

[00:11:56] Thank you. But I listened and that was fabulous because it was your own voice, which must have been also challenging. I'm guessing because that's not your background. I know that for a fact. Captain, do we still call you captain? Or how does that work? No, don't go. Okay.

[00:12:14] One of the hardest things I think I've done was I did that audio book in five days.

[00:12:20] So going through all of that in five days was really intense being shut in a recording studio recording about being shut in a recording studio was, you know, it's really interesting to kind of like watch your PTSD processes.

[00:12:34] Interestingly, I do have a little bit of a background because the Children of God really in the 80s and 90s became a child trafficking childhood entertainment company.

[00:12:46] And a lot of what we did was produce these educational religious and non-religious kids videos and then sell them around the world. So I actually was in some ways kind of little apocalypse Lindsay Lohan.

[00:12:59] And I think a big, it was a cool brick in my healing that I got to go voice this audio book and kind of use these acting skills that had been foisted on me to then read the book for, you know, national and international distribution.

[00:13:16] Yeah, that's a little, that's a little fuck you to the Children of God, isn't it? You still have those videos? There are a lot of them on the internet. I will send you a really special one.

[00:13:28] I used to show my soldiers who didn't believe I grew up in a cult and it's me at 10 and six other white kids rapping apocalypse Bible verses in Brazil. Oh my goodness. Okay, so for those of you, what are they called?

[00:13:42] What are you called when you're being a naughty person? Well, how naughty? Rascals who did not do their homework. Can you give us give the listeners a little cliff notes start with, I know that you didn't choose. Children of God, your mother. She was also born into it.

[00:13:58] Third generation. That's right. One thing I love that you kept saying in your book was the children of the children of the Children of God. That's like such a wild concept. Tell me about your mother and what her parents were choosing.

[00:14:12] Like this thing that really struck me about your book was the way that you were able to show what they thought was good about it and what was beautiful about the original ideals of the group before it got so twisted. Can you bring our readers up to speed?

[00:14:24] So for sure. And I'm actually coming up with this definition of a cult for my next book, which is kind of a 10 part definition. And what's important is it's not just a list of qualities of a group.

[00:14:36] It's also a journey and I'm sure you'll relate to this from next year. Like it's a different cult at different stages. And so I really tried to show that in my book, right? Going all the way back.

[00:14:47] So my grandfather in the late 60s joins the Children of God. And his story was he had a really bad LSD attack where he met the devil.

[00:14:56] And then the next day is he was sitting in a park with his head in his hands upwalked the Children of God. Right. And there are these beautiful, beautiful women, happy people smiling, playing music, saying come with us and serve God.

[00:15:11] And we all want our lives to have meaning. And so off he went and he's one of the few college educated people that joins the Children of God.

[00:15:20] So he quickly becomes like one of the finance managers, CPAs, where he works with this other man who is I later find out the only person who knows where all the money is coming and going from. This man is a couple years older than my grandfather.

[00:15:36] You know, we'll get back to that.

[00:15:39] But for the I would say for the first 10 years of the Children of God, like it really was kind of this big movement of hippies and all of these other people that are disillusioned with society and what is going on in society.

[00:15:54] And they are looking for something better. Right. Very similar to how Sarah was looking for something when she found nexium. So I always think it's important to point out that in the beginning it was very different.

[00:16:06] All these people that love, you know, love faith Jesus wanted to go win the world really believed that David Berg is the prophet of God.

[00:16:14] But there's also I think what gets lost in the narrative later for cult joiners is this idea that at some point it was good.

[00:16:22] Like that was the con because the Children of God was always started by an incestuous alcoholic pedophile narcissist who liked to play power and control games.

[00:16:33] So even like way back in the early days when it appeared to be good, I still think it was very, you know, controlling and all of the things that it was eventually going to be. But my mother is then born in 1972.

[00:16:47] She's one of the first 10 children born into the Children of God. And there, you know, when the children come along, I think that's always when it gets scary.

[00:16:56] Like when I'm watching the vow and I see now nexium is raising children and bragging about how many languages they speak. I'm going, oh no. And, you know, the first kids were just kind of the teachings had turned very sexual.

[00:17:10] The differentiation that Berg used to make his group stand out. I like to say was it's the exact same control that a lot of high control groups take over your sex life in the form of purity. And he just flipped it, right?

[00:17:26] So from like evangelical purity, it was well now we have free love, but it wasn't free love. It was forced polyamory. It turned into religious prostitution and then turned into now we're going to raise sexually liberated children.

[00:17:40] And so this was kind of the world that my mom grew up in.

[00:17:44] I think in the book, I talk about how when she's 12 years old, her father who she's not living with hasn't seen since she's nine shows up toast her with a glass of wine because now she's an adult.

[00:17:56] And then she's asked to make a list of the uncles that she wants to have sex with first. So, you know, that's my mom at 13.

[00:18:05] At 13, a bunch of the leaders send their daughters off to David Berg's secret layer to be personally trained by the prophet where he then marries these 14 girls that range from the ages of 14 to three and include his own daughter and granddaughter and my mom.

[00:18:26] And then at 14, she becomes pregnant by that other finance guy who, you know, becomes my father.

[00:18:35] And this was actually kind of a realization and a shift in the cult at the time because they did suddenly realize that when you have 15 year old mothers walking around, that is proof of the abuses.

[00:18:50] So that's when some rules started being laid down about sex and things were changing. Though, of course, as you see in my story, it's not like they rebranded successfully or the abuses stopped.

[00:19:01] One of the things that's what our podcast as well as it points out the precursors and consistently the precursors. It's normally it's a group of people that have a problem or disillusion with what's going on in society. And then you see that today, right?

[00:19:16] So that does a lot of the things that makes people susceptible. I wanted to like give people more of the cliff notes because I just thought it was interesting that your mom gave birth to you when you were 15 and you got out when you were 15.

[00:19:27] But from zero to 15, you had quite the journey.

[00:19:31] And without giving away the main markers of the book, it seemed that you were questioning from quite a young age like you and I loved how the book brought the reader into your internal process of being like this isn't right. But you also didn't have a choice.

[00:19:46] You couldn't go where were you going to go? Even when you left at 15, I was like, holy shit, if I had to move to Texas by myself at 15, that would be hard for me. And I wasn't raised in a cult.

[00:19:57] So lead us through some of those markers, especially like what were some of the things that were really stood out to you as obvious. Like now you know it's a massive red flag knowing what you know now.

[00:20:08] Yeah. And you know, Sarah, like I'm sure you've heard this people will say this a lot to children of God survivors. Like if it was so bad, why didn't you just leave when you turned 18?

[00:20:18] And I always want to say to them, you know, why didn't you just move to Cambodia when you were 18? You know, like we had nothing. We had no connection. And you know, I think to Nippy's point, right, the people that joined the cults are seekers, right?

[00:20:31] They are seeking for something. They are in many ways buying into the programming for the kids that are born there to Sarah's point. I just think I was born a logical critical atheist and I just happened to be born amongst Christian fundamentalists.

[00:20:48] But from my earliest years, you know, you see it in uncultured at six years old. I'm like this is not God. This is not love. And even if it is, I'm not doing this.

[00:21:00] And I specifically remember thinking because of course we were taught we were going to hell if we weren't in the family. And I remember thinking, well, hell's going to suck, but I'm not doing this. So yes, I always knew. Like I always was trying to get away.

[00:21:16] I always was trying to get out. And as you mentioned, right, I had a mother who was also born in who, well, to me, she seemed like the true believer and the perfect follower her whole life.

[00:21:30] Looking back now, I can see why some of the fight I had in me and some of the things about me were absolutely because I was third generation.

[00:21:41] And to the point where when I leave at 15 and I'm scared, you know, and they realize I'm famous, they shouldn't let me go. And so they start rolling all the cool young skinny second generation aunties through the house to try to convince me to stay.

[00:22:00] And I was definitely wavering. And then my mom took me aside outside the commune away from the walls and was like just go. Like we found a place for you in Houston. Just go. You're not going to be happier.

[00:22:13] And this is a full decade or maybe eight years from when she actually breaks away herself.

[00:22:19] But, you know, I guess that rare parent who comes from high control religion who realizes like I want my child to be happy more than I'm going to be devastated about losing her from the religion.

[00:22:34] And she didn't even know the details of that time as to what was going on for you or what had been done to you. Correct? Or did she know in some level?

[00:22:43] So that is so much a part of it, right? I think that I thought she knew, right? So so much of my narrative in my mind was, well, this doesn't feel right, but this has to be right because my mom grew up in this.

[00:22:56] My mom knows kind of how bad this is. Of course, my mom, you know, later. How do you ever talk about that stuff? Right? I mean, she read my book. That is when she found out a lot of the stuff.

[00:23:10] And then she said to me, you know, she was also being abused by Uncle Jerry when she was a young girl, but it never crossed her mind that he would have been abusing her daughters because the rules had changed.

[00:23:24] And she had so much belief in the group and the rules and the system. It almost very much reminds me of when Mark Vicente tells you, Sarah, that there's this sex cult thing going on. And both of you are like, Keith can't know about this. I totally agree.

[00:23:45] Keith can't know about this. Because he's celibate. Or, you know, you see the same thing in Harry and Meghan's interview with Oprah where they're like, no, the queen, the queen's cool. It was the system that was messed up.

[00:24:00] And I'm like, yeah, they still have some deconstruction to do to realize that like the person at the top is involved in the system.

[00:24:08] God, how many times Nippy when we were leaving and we told people what had happened to me and they were like, but Keith wouldn't have condoned that. I'm like, it's Keith's fucking initials. Maybe when I heard it in the transcripts and in the trials, like, come on, really?

[00:24:26] But this is what makes it so strong. And like I have been using your example, Sarah, for years now as a cult scholar because it's so poignant that like there you are in that moment figuring out that you have somebody's initials.

[00:24:43] Branded into your pelvis and you still had not yet realized you were in a cult. You know, and I have this similar moment where I've already left my whole world, gotten away.

[00:24:55] I'm struggling through surviving on my own 17 in Texas and there's a murder suicide on TV and they keep saying the children of God cults. And in that moment, I realized like, oh, I grew up in a cult.

[00:25:09] And like that's when everything falls into place and you see everything. But until that moment, you can go so far in such a well described moment. And again, so interesting that you got you had gotten away. You had left but you hadn't figured it out yet.

[00:25:28] You didn't put the pieces together yet. Yeah, because the first rule of cult says you're never in a cult. I was just leaving the family. And you know, in that moment when I had the realization, oh, it was a cult.

[00:25:41] The next thought was, and that's why we spent so much time doing drills about answering questions about how we were not a cult.

[00:25:50] You know, I don't think any normal like 10 year old kid knows how to run you through the definition of a cult and how their religion is not one. Red flag number one. This is the golden age of cult recovery.

[00:26:05] The more we speak up and share our stories, the more we realize we are not alone. Your voice and your story can empower others. This is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I got out movement. Learn more at I got out.org.

[00:26:22] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are your self care non negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga. Maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep. That's my personal and everyone's dream, isn't it?

[00:26:41] Well, I definitely have some non negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature. Hashtag cold pools, hashtag crushing it.

[00:26:51] Nature is a non negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great, not myself, not grounded. Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks.

[00:26:59] I try to not miss it and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority. I get so much out of it.

[00:27:06] It helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need. Like, I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people.

[00:27:16] You know what I mean? Thanks therapy. Thanks for helping me see that. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule.

[00:27:25] Just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Look, even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it.

[00:27:36] But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non negotiables like therapy are more important than ever. Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help H-E-L-P dot com slash culty.

[00:27:51] The Frankies were a picture perfect influencer family. But everything wasn't as it seemed. I just had a 12 year old boy still appeared asking for help. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs. Ruby Frankie is his mom's name.

[00:28:09] Infamous is covering Ruby Frankie, the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives. Listen to Infamous wherever you get your podcasts. For our listeners you don't know what was the mission? What was the children of God trying to do in the world?

[00:28:29] So the mission was basically win the world for Jesus before the end of days, right? Before the apocalypse. And there's this other concept that I'm building called the sacred assumption. I've heard people call it a lot of different things like Faith Jones talked about this on your discussion.

[00:28:48] But like there's always one sacred assumption. And in this case it was that David Berg is the prophet of God. I think in y'all's case it was that Keith is this genius, celibate genius. And that he's good. That he's good right?

[00:29:05] With that sacred assumption you can justify everything else to yourself. And it's almost like when you said the red flags right it gives me this picture of like you're just driving along this beautiful highway down to a beach.

[00:29:16] And there's all these red flags waving in the wind and you're just driving along like oh how nice. And then you get there, there's a bunch of sharks or something. And people are like you didn't see all the red flags? And you're like well I see them now.

[00:29:30] I know what it was leading to now but at the time it just it made sense and it seemed beautiful. And I say you know like the children of God started off as faith love in Jesus.

[00:29:41] And people as you mentioned Nipi that were seekers that wanted to do something good that were unsatisfied with the very unsatisfying systems in America in the 60s and 70s. And wanted to change the world.

[00:29:57] And within about a decade it went from faith love in Jesus to also religious prostitution, pedophilia for God. And just this constant preparation for the apocalypse which really is kind of a death obsession if you dig into it. Sounds about right.

[00:30:15] Yeah and the religious prostitution specifically was what we now know as flirty fishing. Can you tell our listeners what that was? And this is one of those things again it was so obvious and it was like because it was so obvious they had all these justifications for it.

[00:30:31] Because they literally called themselves hookers for Christ. So it was all based off this Bible verse in Matthew where Jesus says to these fishermen, leave your nets and your hooks come follow me I will make you fishers of men.

[00:30:44] And so like we would have these cartoons right the children of God was really big on cartoons. I actually think there's a deep thing with comics and cartoons and cults and indoctrinations.

[00:30:56] But like even when we didn't even when we'd stopped flirty fishing like we all grew up with this poster of just this naked mermaid with a giant hook through her chest. And this was you know God's hookers Jesus's hookers whatever it was called.

[00:31:16] It wasn't like it was hidden it wasn't like it was like you're slowly being walked into this thing and then you realize what it was. I mean you you'd slowly been walked into absolute bound of control over a decade.

[00:31:28] But by the time this person in this group that completely controls you is like now we're going to prostitute you for Jesus. You're stuck.

[00:31:38] I think it reminds me a lot Sarah of you talking about when you're in DOS and now you have a slave and you're like technically I said yes to all of these things. So how do I say no now and how do I get out of this.

[00:31:50] I mean there were so many similarities. There is two specific practices that run true to me. I'm not sure if you if you may know this as well one was the open heart report. Did I get that right.

[00:32:03] Yeah we share with Nippy what that is and our audience not just Nippy. Yes. So the open heart report and in my opinion I've never seen a cult that doesn't have a version of this which is basically group shaming. Right.

[00:32:17] And so it's an activity where you have to make yourself completely vulnerable and then anyone in the group typically your superiors gets to comment on it. It does seem very similar to your E.M. process. Right.

[00:32:33] And this the open heart reports were every day and they literally covered things like how many times you pooped and what the consistency was to who you'd had sex with to your thoughts to.

[00:32:45] You know what your reaction was to the mow letters right the garbage that the prophet would spew and we would all have to read as though it were the word of God. And you just had to put all of that stuff in there.

[00:32:57] And of course it's an incredible means of control. But I also think there's this very sort of hidden thing where they're hacking vulnerability they're hacking that connection that you feel when you're vulnerable with someone. But it's all done in a toxic way.

[00:33:15] But it does still stand out to people when they leave the cult that it's really hard to find this deep connection with other people because you really did in a cult get these levels of deep deep deep connection.

[00:33:30] Well you're in rapport there's an episode in the valve called rapport and it basically dives into how these people are able to get a deeper poor with you or what you feel like is a deeper poor.

[00:33:39] And then I think that's when the most abuse happens because you feel safe. Oh yeah. And it's the good people fallacy.

[00:33:48] I heard this in Sarah's explanations a lot like Lauren's doing this. She's my best friend. She can't be deluded or even in the beginning a lot of her questions was like well Mark invited me to this right like Mark knows there's a lot of that too.

[00:34:03] And also this thing like we we see it in the army a lot too which is when you have such similar backgrounds with people you have that experience of like sort of similar to how we feel like we know each other already like you meet.

[00:34:20] And first thing you do is spend five hours in conversation right and you feel that like high of like you said that rapport that that community. And from what I can tell like veterans and cult survivors all spend their lives chasing that level of connection afterwards.

[00:34:37] I bet that's why cult survivors really do love each other so much doesn't matter what cult you're in your like I feel you sister got you.

[00:34:44] You've been through trauma together right. I mean the downside is it's trauma bonding the upside is is that you've been through something with someone else you've seen their character under strenuous circumstances you know they're you know their metals so to speak and even afterwards if you've been through a certain little

[00:35:01] of trauma you guys can speak to something because you flirted with kind of a similar force in the conversations from that or nuance.

[00:35:07] I think there's some subconscious stuff there too right there's research that shows that doing hard things together really bonds us absolutely and so of course and I think we don't like to talk about this when we talk about the

[00:35:21] camaraderie and bonding of the military and we don't like to talk about like even just going through basic training is a group going through trauma together you know and so it's almost like well when I meet you.

[00:35:32] I know that you've been through the same level of trauma and bullshit in your past and so I know that we have this in common even though I don't actually know you absolutely.

[00:35:44] Hey there listener hope you're enjoying this episode and that you're remembering to hydrate stretch and unclench your jaws sometimes listening to conversations about heavy topics can really make you tighten up you know and remember a little bit cult he loves you also come

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[00:36:08] This episode is sponsored by better help what are your self care non negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep.

[00:36:20] That's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well I definitely have some non negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature.

[00:36:31] Hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it nature is a non negotiable not enough time the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it and I know I'm just going to feel so much better all around if I make it a priority.

[00:36:46] I get so much out of it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that.

[00:37:02] And if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge look even when we're not going to be able to do anything about it.

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[00:38:03] At Macy's.

[00:38:05] Well also like you know if we lived in the same city and we hung out I am without a doubt for certain that we would like be really close friends right away because we can skip the surface stuff you skip the pretense you know like oh so where are y'all from and what do you do like it's you just go rated to you go right into the meaningful heartfelt substance of a real friendship.

[00:38:28] There's wisdom there to get the whole point to is you know I think our audience may listen to it they might listen and go wait a minute I've been in that atmosphere didn't even know it because it was so normalized.

[00:38:39] That's exactly why love bombing works yes right which I assume all your listeners know what love bombing is but like for most people especially when you're unsatisfied with the system and you're seeking.

[00:38:50] And then you go to this event and instead of all the awkward small talk you get into this deep conversation right Keith walks up to you and says what's holding you back in your life or whatever right.

[00:39:04] And like you probably haven't had that level of deep conversation with someone so now you're like oh this person really cares about me boom boom boom yeah absolutely.

[00:39:14] And to your point Nippy right like this is why we all do this work because all of the stuff that is sort of good and normal in the world can also be taken to the extreme by coercive control. And also the first steps feel good yeah.

[00:39:31] So I find myself saying a lot you know when you reach the point that you're a sex cult it's obvious right like it's obvious that it went wrong and that's when we start talking about it and that's when we start looking backwards and seeing all the signs but like you said Nippy like so many people have these situations in their everyday lives and their everyday groups and they don't notice it because it's not labeled a cult.

[00:39:56] Not yet. To your point Daniel a lot of our feedback and a lot of the personal emails that we get and a lot of the people that DM me have said hey listen to your podcast and this work situation described what you described to a T.

[00:40:09] So there's people that are showing up to work every day they don't know what this looks like and they listen to a podcast where someone just and it's small because people go wait a minute my coworker does that or and most of our emails I would say a lot of them are from that or speak to that.

[00:40:22] And speaking of you know red flags that we see now the other thing I see consistent and all the groups that I hadn't heard labeled in this way is the concept that that children of God called deception but true. Tell us about that. Yes. So deceivers yet true.

[00:40:38] It was a whole magazine rate illustrated like I would say it was one of our more fun children's comics to read.

[00:40:45] And it was all these stories handpicked from the Bible or sort of Christian history and told from the lens of you see these people had to lie but it was for God right so an example is in the Bible when this prostitute named Rahab hides these two you know people of God and then lies to the soldiers that are looking for them.

[00:41:09] Joshua and his friend. And then helps them escape and it's like Rahab was doing good even though she lied because she was lying for God.

[00:41:18] And so that concept is huge in a lot of cult groups which of course is you know the ends justifies the means right but we were we were being actively programmed to lie to outside authorities about what went on inside the group.

[00:41:39] But of course we were being told that that was because the outside world can't understand it right we hide this because the outside world has not been given the revelations that we have been given.

[00:41:50] So like we know that all of the sex with children is done in love but the outside world wouldn't understand that so of course if anyone ever asks you you have to say that nobody's ever done anything to you.

[00:42:03] We know that we beat you out of love but if anyone ever asks you you need to say that nobody ever hits you because the outside world doesn't understand that. Does that sound familiar now. Yeah. They called it the ethical lie. Yeah.

[00:42:21] And you know what else Sarah that is not in my book but I see in nexium was the gender role training right so we had the kind of same.

[00:42:32] I think we borrowed it from the Mormons or one of those other groups but it was called like purity something for like the women to learn how to be women and then the men to learn how to be men.

[00:42:44] Right which is of course just a way to reinforce your paternal gender roles and power structures.

[00:42:51] Well the way it was sold to the women too was it's a place for women to go define what it means to be a woman unencumbered by the male definition so it was sold as this kind of empowerment.

[00:43:03] I think what's always the most like cheering moment especially when I listened to your book is that when you finally made the decision to leave even though you hadn't woken up fully yet.

[00:43:12] What propelled you at 15 to leave and go into a foreign country and live on your own. It was a final straw there even though it wasn't like the wake up but but it woke you up to leave enough to leave.

[00:43:23] And this was like my favorite chapter to record because it starts with well fuck it and the director let me do the whole chapter just an angry sarcastic voice and it was great. Nice.

[00:43:35] So my first crack in the brainwashing is a year and a half earlier it's on 9 11 I'm 14 years old.

[00:43:42] I'm watching live television for the first time in my life watching live news and I'm seeing the towers come down in the carnage and I'm hearing the grownups around me saying this is God's will this is his promise judgment on evil America Babylon the whore.

[00:43:58] And I'm also hearing the words religious extremists on the television.

[00:44:02] So I have my moment of like are we the bad guys like I always knew I was going to leave I always knew it wasn't for me but that was my first moment of being like maybe the family itself is problematic the children have got itself.

[00:44:17] So then I kind of started this one and a half year campaign of getting myself kicked out where I learned that if they think they can save you they will try and exorcisms are never fun.

[00:44:27] So you really have to kind of like commit the worst of the sins which for me literally climaxes in me climbing over the walls of the commune in the middle of the night to go have sex with an outsider because at this point we've cut off all sex with outsiders.

[00:44:44] And so that's the biggest sin you can commit at which point I am again sort of forced to either become excommunicated or really really double down harder and purge myself and recommit.

[00:44:58] And this is when my mom helps me get away and get away and tells me to go and I end up dropped into you know what is to me a very foreign country because I was born in the Philippines with an American passport but I grew up mostly in Asia and Latin America.

[00:45:14] And so I'm in Texas for the first time of my life. I am living in the apartment of a woman I've met three times was you know my stepfather's daughter and I am walking up to the high school to get enrolled with my social security card and my passport and no other documents.

[00:45:31] And they're like well we can't enroll you because you don't exist. That was sort of my introduction right to America.

[00:45:39] Honestly some of the things that you described in your book even like being punished and worse at such a young age is just it really blows my mind how you are able to endure so many things.

[00:45:52] And I know that as a you know as a survivor as well like people always say in therapist say you can't compare your trauma to other people's trauma because it's just can't.

[00:46:02] But it was really hard not to. It's like dude I had a light compared to Daniela. She went fucking through it like the things that you describe in your book unimaginable and fathomable.

[00:46:13] And to get to the point where you're even free at the age of 15 and then to embark on the next stage of your journey which we're going to cover in next week's episode.

[00:46:23] And then to write about it and I want to say what I saw in your signature The New York Times says a propulsive memoir delivered in the honest tones of a woman who didn't always think she lived to tell her story.

[00:46:35] And I think that that really sums it up so well for me as a reader of your book and now hopefully a friend to you to just say like how moved I was that you went through all these things and you kept going and you kept going and you kept going like the resilience and the strength that took to do all those things.

[00:46:52] Especially to then enroll yourself into the fucking army. Part two. Stay tuned. This was a very interesting choice I made. You know I agree with you that like everyone, I think everyone's worst thing is their worst thing.

[00:47:11] You know but one of the things I think that is so hard for children of God survivors is because we grow up thinking that's normal and telling ourselves we're fine and being told that it's all love.

[00:47:24] And then once you actually get out into the world part of the deconstruction is realizing how bad it really was.

[00:47:33] This is actually very similar for soldiers with PTSD and you know bringing this back to memoir like for a long time I felt an affinity for stories written by Holocaust survivors or memoirs of enslaved people.

[00:47:48] And it took me kind of you know a decade to really understand that like I was enslaved as a child what they were doing to us was trafficking what we were raised in was prison camps.

[00:48:00] You know and so again not saying they're the same thing but when you read other people's description of their traumas and you notice those similarities like no I was never chattel slavery is completely different.

[00:48:15] However this sentence compares to how I felt you know and so now I see the same thing when people tell me they love cult stories.

[00:48:25] I'm like I think there's some sort of trauma in your life that you are trying to sort out trying to realize how to talk about and contextualize.

[00:48:34] Yeah the shackles and ceilings are very real it's just different language to you know how they're implemented you know so it's interesting to put all the language in context to how this stuff works.

[00:48:46] And then once you've actually explored it and contextualize all that language and then people try to talk about it with the happy good language. It's such a cognitive dissonance you know.

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[00:49:35] Okay everybody I hope that you enjoyed part one as much as we did check out the book if you want between now and episode two otherwise have a great week and we'll see you soon.

[00:49:51] Hope you like this episode. Let's keep the conversation going and come hang out with us on Patreon where we keep the tape rolling each week special episodes just for patreon subscribers and where we get deep into the weeds of unpacking every episode of the valve.

[00:50:16] And if you're looking for our show notes or some sweet sweet swag or official LBC podcast March or list of our most recommended Colt recovery resources visit our website at a little bit Colt.com

[00:50:28] And for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoirs called scar true story of high escape next year the cult that bound my life it's available on Amazon audible narrated by my wife and at most bookstores.

[00:50:40] A little bit Colt he is a talk house podcast and a trace 120 production were executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames with writing research and additional production support by senior producer Jess tardy.

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