Unveiled: Yasmine Mohammed on Extreme Fundamentalism

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to snow basin. Now on the icon pass. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should

[00:00:30] not be considered legal, medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:51] I'm Sarah Edmondson and I'm Anthony air quotes Nippy Ames and this is A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real

[00:01:06] cult stories told directly by the people who live through them because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty you're already prime recruitment material you might

[00:01:20] even already be in a cult. Oops, you better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty. Welcome back everybody. This is an episode ironically that we had had scheduled before

[00:01:50] the October 7th attack on Israel and this is important to me and yeah I'm still pretty raw about it all. There was so much to talk about with our guest Yasmin. There is her story

[00:02:02] which I first read about in her book Unveiled which I cannot recommend enough we will be posting that in our Goodreads account. Also it happened at the perfect time just time

[00:02:13] in terms of you know worldly matters too but one of the things or and one of the things too it's like a lot of times when we're telling these people's story it's happened to them

[00:02:21] already or they've just gotten out this is one of our first conversations we're like hey our conversation pertains precisely to what's going on in the world right now not that the others don't

[00:02:31] but like in terms of like how the news it literally just happened and she's on our docket. So it's a really interesting time for it and great perspective and one of the more interesting conversations we've had just because it's charged with that backdrop.

[00:02:43] Yes, very very charged one and if you're noticing that you feel angry with different perspectives that's totally fine I'm happy to get a different perspective and to be able to talk freely and I feel grateful that we have the capacity to talk

[00:02:57] freely in not all places of the world can you speak freely nevermind dress freely etc. And as most of you know with I mean to be story or if you follow the podcast you watch the vow

[00:03:07] we always invite survivors and experts to share their experiences with coercive control high demand groups organizations cults of two we've also looked at religious fundamentalism especially evangelical christian fundamentalism flds your hope is witness we also talked about

[00:03:22] orthodox judaism what we haven't touched on is radical islam and to be honest it's daunting I'll speak for myself I'm a little scared especially right now in this very polarized world we navigate today's guest is Yasmine Muhammad she's a free thinker a courageous eloquent writer

[00:03:38] podcaster and human rights advocate for women and children living in muslim majority countries she's the founder and president of free hearts free minds her memoir unveiled explores her history as a first-generation canadian woman born into a fundamentalist islam household and later arranged

[00:03:53] marriage to a member of al-qaeda having attended islamic schools and worn a hijab since she was nine while living in vancouver she's currently hiding from jihadists because as free hearts free minds notes free thinkers who renounce islam are ostracized assaulted and killed

[00:04:08] not just overseas but on us soil and just let me be clear her book kind of says it all the title is unveiled how western liberals empower radical islam she's brave beyond brave and she's here today to talk to us about the dynamics indoctrination and dehumanization that happens

[00:04:24] when fundamentalist religion goes beyond culti to just straight up destructive and mind you we are wanting to deep dive into this without also causing any collateral damage to our listeners because we know our listeners represent a broad diversity of faiths and just like not all fundamentalist

[00:04:40] christians are down with somebody like david koresh or pat robertson and not all orthodox jews are down with lefthor a.k.a the jewish taliban certainly not all muslims and not even all fundamentalist ones stand for hate this is all more nuanced and complicated than any one or

[00:04:55] two hours of a podcast could delve into and as we all know sarah and i aren't phd's in geopolitics so we're probably gonna stumble and it's probably gonna be a little bit messy but

[00:05:04] that's how you have a hard conversations and that is kind of the point of this podcast to have unscripted conversations from the heart to make the kind of space that leads to understanding

[00:05:13] so if and when we fuck up well just be kind here's our chat with yasmine mohammed yasmine mohammed welcome to a little bit culti thank you so much this has been a long time

[00:05:37] coming and i was trying to tell nippy i can't actually remember how we originally connected was it twitter did we connect on twitter i think so x and then we exchanged books and then i heard you

[00:05:48] on jordan harbinger and i was like we got to get this woman on this is important and by the way we just re-listened to that to prep for this you speak of things in that from a year ago that are

[00:05:58] detailing exactly what is happening right now yeah it's just repeating itself yeah you were right on the mark there and probably everyone else was like okay i actually remember thinking

[00:06:07] wow she's pretty riled up i don't think i realized how accurate i mean i didn't realize i was like wow she's really in it you know what i mean like i didn't discard it but i didn't take it seriously

[00:06:17] that's exactly like okay so there was a publisher who i had sent my book to and he loved it and he was so excited and he tried to get it published and he couldn't do it because nobody

[00:06:29] could see what i was trying to say and so he wrote me a note now and he's like now the world sees what you've been trying to say like now they get it but they couldn't get it when i was

[00:06:40] trying to get your book published and it's kind of what you were saying sarah like i i just looks like i was overreacting but that's what happens when people don't get it like you both of you as

[00:06:51] whistleblowers i'm sure people felt the same way i mean i saw that in the documentary when you first went to the fbi and whatever they're like eh whatever looks consensual yeah for

[00:07:00] our audience we're gonna really try to focus on your story and what happened to you and your book which is unbelievably harrowing and brave and heartbreaking and so many things as you know

[00:07:11] as you know our podcast normally we talk about like how do people get in how do they people like the cult like what sucked them in i want to just backtrack for a second to set the stage you had this

[00:07:21] story that was incredibly abusive and awful and everything but you were very quiet about it but then you saw a show with bill mar oh bill mar and ben afleck which on my journey of just

[00:07:34] figuring out how the ecosystem works politically and all that stuff was one of the things that showed up on my radar probably three or four years ago what was that story and what happened so they had

[00:07:45] a writer on their show his name is sam harris i'd never heard of him and he was speaking with bill mar and the two of them were talking about how frustrating it is that as liberal americans

[00:08:00] when they're talking about topics that are important to them somehow their fellow liberal americans get really irritated and they want to shut down the conversation if it comes around muslims or islam and so to illustrate his point sam talked about a recent survey from egypt that asked

[00:08:20] do you believe that people who renounce their religion people who renounce islam people who basically decide to not be muslims anymore do you believe that they should be executed and something like 86 percent of the respondents said yes they should be executed so currently in

[00:08:38] about 15 countries across the world muslim majority countries you can be executed for leaving the religion but egypt isn't one of those countries in egypt you don't get killed you get put in an insane asylum instead so these people polled were saying no no no we should actually just

[00:08:54] kill them and it was a moment for me of you know when people talk about like being seen and heard you know like i had that moment of like oh i'm being represented like here i am half egyptian

[00:09:10] i have renounced islam and i knew all of this to be true but it was really really cool to see these two men on hbo talking about us as if we mattered you know and so here i am just about to

[00:09:26] start getting like excited and ben aflick jumps in and he's like you're both racist you're islamophobic you're this you're that and he shut down the conversation so it was like this perfect little

[00:09:38] microcosm of like the problem and the problem is that we can't even talk about the problem you know when it comes from islamic or muslim context suddenly it's like that's the no go zone

[00:09:52] you know that's the sacred cow and what that's doing of course is it's leaving the victims of that ideology forgotten because people are too concerned about defending the ideology versus defending the people who are being hurt precisely and leave it to a hollywood actor

[00:10:12] thanks ben aflick i love that you thank ben aflick in your book i love that you thanked him can you hold up your copy of your book for a second oh have a handy can you read the title

[00:10:22] it's called unveiled how western liberals empower radical islam okay thank you so we're gonna get back to that topic at the end and first let's hear your story and i really want

[00:10:34] to emphasize to our audience that this book really opened my eyes and educated me in a way that i didn't realize i needed so i think it's very important and we're going to be skimming to the

[00:10:44] key points in the book not covering your whole story because you can't do that in an hour anyway but just really honoring what you've dedicated your life to now which is the freedom of women

[00:10:54] correct yeah yeah absolutely well i think freedom women are the most hurt under the ideology but freedom of anybody who's suffering under it so let's start with you know you didn't use this

[00:11:06] right you didn't this is not a cult dare i say we'll get into that later that you signed up for your mom brought you into it can you give us the background that's necessary to understand

[00:11:17] how you as a six-year-old in canada got pulled into radical islam from your mom so from watching all of the cult documentaries that i've watched it turns out that my mom is actually not that unique in that she was a single mom looking for community looking for support

[00:11:36] her and my dad had lived in san francisco together they had just moved to canada to vancouver and she'd started a new job and she's got three kids and their marriage fell apart and she just felt overworked and isolated and i'm pretty sure she was going through depression

[00:11:54] and so she went to the local mosque not necessarily because she was religious because she wasn't but because she was just looking for community and when she was there the caretaker of the mosque was the man that she ended up marrying so he was already married

[00:12:13] already had three children and he took my mom on as his second wife second concurrent wife so technically that's against the law in canada but his first wife was his legal wife and my mom was

[00:12:26] just his islamic wife and they kept that from us when we were kids because it was against the law and they didn't want to get in trouble so we just called him uncle and he was just like a

[00:12:39] very close family friend initially and when he came into our lives it was really weird how my mom just capitulated to everything that he said and did like that bothered me even as a little girl

[00:12:52] i was like why are you letting him do that like he he declared that music is forbidden music is haram what is haram it's forbidden okay it's against the religion and so you know my mom used to

[00:13:06] love listening to country music she had like dolly parton kinnie rogers yeah he took all of her records she was second yeah she was a totally normal human being pre this guy yeah even though she

[00:13:17] grew up in egypt where which would be a lot more conservative than it would be obviously in san francisco in the 60s or in thank uver she was still secular and so he took her records and he

[00:13:30] was breaking them like he's breaking all of her records and he's handing them to us and he's telling us to break her records too and i remember feeling so upset for her you know like if my brother

[00:13:43] walked into my room and took my barbies and started breaking them like i would be livid but she just stood there and she just took it she just it was like this indication to all of us that he's

[00:13:54] going to do these things and we have to just accept it he was a very violent man you know my mom started wearing hijab started demanding that we all memorize the hodon which is the islamic

[00:14:07] holy book and it needs to be memorized in order to be able to do the prayers which need to be done five times a day and so if we didn't memorize the suras the chapters that we had to memorize

[00:14:21] get beaten we would get whipped or if we missed a prayer and i hated it i hated him i hated how everything in my life had changed suddenly you know my best friends down the hall

[00:14:37] chelsea and lindsay i wasn't allowed to play with them anymore because they're not muslims not allowed to go to birthday parties anymore because birthdays are forbidden not allowed to listen to music not allowed to go swimming not allowed to ride my bike like everything is like

[00:14:50] forbidden forbidden forbidden forbidden this podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing supportive generous patrons are you with us come find us over on patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty for bonus episodes exclusive content and the occasional zoom

[00:15:08] with our fan favorites from our past episodes it's a lot of fun over there people the frankies were a picture perfect influencer family but everything wasn't as it seemed i just had a 12 year old

[00:15:28] boy still appeared asking for help he's emaciated he's got tape around his legs ruby frankie is his mom's name infamous is covering ruby frankie the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that

[00:15:43] ruined lives listen to infamous wherever you get your podcasts this episode is sponsored by better help what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep i mean that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it

[00:16:03] well i definitely have some non-negotiables like i'm in Vancouver right now and i'm spending literally as much time as i can outside in nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time the fresh air and the trees around me and i

[00:16:16] start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks i try to not miss it and i know i'm just gonna feel so much better all around if i make it a priority

[00:16:26] i get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so i can focus on what i really need and sometimes what i don't need like i don't

[00:16:35] need to be overbooking myself just because i hate to say no to people you know what i mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help or try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to

[00:16:47] your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge look even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself

[00:17:00] non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy day with better help visit better help comm slash culty today to get 10% off your first month that's better help h e l p dot com slash culty meals bring people together but for many families

[00:17:16] providing their next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating in macy's annual feeding the hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through january 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue

[00:17:33] feeding the hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at macy's you've heard from our sponsors now let's get back to a little bit culty shall we is it accurate saying that the

[00:17:52] the bike riding isn't allowed to protect the female hymen that is absolutely correct as crazy as that sounds there's a saudi arabian movie out if any of your listeners are interested it's called wajda wad ja and the whole movie is about this 10 year old girl who just

[00:18:09] wants a bicycle like she tries so hard she like joins this like competition of school that the prize is to to win a bike and she's just like obsessed with wanting to ride a bike and everybody in

[00:18:21] the neighborhood and her mother like everybody is trying to prevent her from riding a bicycle like that's the whole movie like can you imagine having a movie about just a girl wanting so hard

[00:18:33] to ride a bike and all of these obstacles right her principal at school her family her neighbors everybody like nobody wants her to ride a bike the girl just wants to ride a bike and yeah

[00:18:43] it the idea is that it could break your hymen and then you won't be a virgin anymore and then nobody's going to want to marry you so it's the same reason why girls can you know ride

[00:18:53] horses and all sorts of other sports just in general is frowned upon because then you can damage your hymen which is the most important part of a girl so I don't know how they're riding

[00:19:06] bikes Sarah honestly but that's a fear those west centers and their bikes oh my goodness there's so many problems here and we'll get more into into that shortly and listen I don't want you

[00:19:19] to have to recount the details of your abuse growing up I don't feel like it's necessary I don't want to re traumatize you and for those who want to know and really feel and go along

[00:19:29] that journey read the book I think the more relevant is like you're in Canada yeah you're in the western culture and there's a system in place that's being used and even leveraged to protect it

[00:19:41] which is you know one of the things that we're running across in almost all our episodes it's like you know how does that happen yeah we talked about this when I was on your podcast

[00:19:51] Yasmin about how we grew up not probably like you know miles from each kilometers from each other and in the same era and I'm riding my bike and you're in a basement living as a second-class

[00:20:04] citizen being abused by your psycho uncle and your mom's collecting welfare checks and the government either turns a blind eye but probably the most shocking and upsetting part for me on top of the abuse obviously is when a kind teacher who also wrote the forward of your book

[00:20:20] and I love him finally gets you to talk to the authorities what does the judge say after you like risk everything by the way to tell somebody he said that this is your culture this

[00:20:33] is your family's way of disciplining you and so although it may be different more extreme than your average Canadian family he wasn't going to intervene because it was it was what was normal to them so in essence the judge says we have standards and practices that we

[00:20:52] adhere to in the western culture they don't apply to your religion so your religion usurps the standards and practices of our western culture absolutely correct and that is really the biggest problem that was explicit in well he didn't he didn't use those words exactly but yeah

[00:21:12] basically he was telling me you know if you were any other Canadian girl if your family had come from France or Germany or Denmark or whatever before immigrating to Canada then there would be a certain

[00:21:25] expectation that they wouldn't treat you like this that they wouldn't harm you like this but because your family comes from Egypt and your background is Arab and your background is Muslim then this is what is culturally appropriate for their culture so that's why

[00:21:40] it's being excused so that's why I was being left to continue to be abused because my family happened to come from an ethnicity or a culture where it's acceptable so therefore I need

[00:21:54] to accept it too so Canada did not does what's the point of having laws at that point we are a multicultural country that's the same thing they kind of do with like female genital mutilation

[00:22:04] which is a very common practice in many parts of the Muslim world and it should be criminalized in Canada people should be prosecuted for it but instead there's that sort of like oh but that's

[00:22:19] their culture oh but that's how they do things not a big problem I think this is a result of our problem of the judge not wanting to take on that fight of we want to be open we want to

[00:22:33] everyone have their religious practices etc etc what do you think's informing that and I think that's a good question for the overall how the liberal I don't want to say liberal because I think the definition has been kind of messed with and whatever but whatever the failure progressive

[00:22:48] I want to inform without inflaming people and getting canceled for saying it's it's not liberal per se because I would consider myself progressive in the sense of I see something wrong I would do something about it but I think what those words have different meanings and we're

[00:23:02] going to get into the language later that's fine yeah that's fine but for the sake of your message what do you think inspires the failure there I do believe it like quote unquote comes from a good

[00:23:12] place but you know the road to hell is paved with good intentions right I really do believe that the judge thought that so I have a saying for my Canadian my fellow Canadians I say

[00:23:24] their minds are so open that their brains have fallen out so this is an example of that the judge was trying to be so open-minded so culturally accepting that he ended up being viciously

[00:23:38] racist basically towards me and saying because of your race because of your ethnicity I'm going to treat you differently than I'll treat any other young girl in my courtroom oh the irony

[00:23:48] yes exactly do you think that would happen today look at this is in the 80s if this case was brought now do you think the same thing would happen I know the same thing would happen because

[00:23:58] the same thing does happen people are contacting me all the time telling me about things that have happened there is a young girl from Syria in Nova Scotia who her father punched her in the

[00:24:11] face broke her nose because he saw that she had been texting with a boy and child services would not take her out of the home what wow they said he you know he lost his temper or whatever

[00:24:24] he was upset and yeah who do we write to what are we what do we need to do right now we're talking the right person okay so is there anything else about you know normally we say what were the

[00:24:39] red flags along the way that you didn't see his problems but were there any other key moments that stood out for you in your childhood there are things that you want to share with

[00:24:47] their audience that are important to understand the full picture so key moments for me that made me start to feel like sad that I was part of this group we're just first and foremost being a girl

[00:24:59] so the restrictions that are put on you are numerous obviously at at nine years old when they put the hijab on me which is the cloth over your head that's like tied in a knot under

[00:25:11] your like at your throat just sucks your childhood away from you you know your your childhood's already so limited it's already so short and they reduce it even more by telling you you're a woman

[00:25:25] now you're ready to be married and now you have to learn how to be an obedient wife you have to learn how to cook you have to learn how to clean you have to learn how to keep your eyes down

[00:25:36] and don't ask questions like that was my biggest thing was asking questions you know when I would hear stories about our wonderful prophet Muhammad who we must all revere was 53 years old when he married a six-year-old girl I was absolutely horrified like that is the most disgusting thing

[00:25:56] I've ever heard and my mom was like how dare you he didn't consummate it until she was nine I'm like that makes no difference like this is this is horrific and she's like I was the bad person

[00:26:09] like I was the bad person for thinking that that was horrible and wrong and gross and you know I got told off all the time just for asking questions about things that I felt didn't make sense to me

[00:26:23] or that I didn't agree with or that I didn't want to do I was told that that was the devil whispering in my ear but the devil whispering in my ear was causing me to doubt and I had to have

[00:26:35] stronger faith in order to stop the doubts and I couldn't stop them so instead I just stopped talking I just kept them inside I imagine so you're going to school and you're being exposed

[00:26:48] to western lifestyle at this point and one of the things that struck me about your story is with those doubts and being in both worlds how did you reconcile and how did you compartmentalize and

[00:27:00] ultimately how did that how'd you transcend it that was really tough actually because well I went for sure for some of my schooling I was in Islamic schools and then for this year that my teacher

[00:27:11] approached me that was my first year of high school because there was no Islamic high school yet and so that was my first year in public school and because I spoke out because I spoke

[00:27:21] to my teacher and because I you know tried to get this guy arrested basically I was taken out of school so the next year I had to just stay home so it was this constant reminding me that it's us and them

[00:27:36] and I was supposed to love us and hate them but I kept on not getting it right I kept on not hating them enough you know how could I go to the to the them for help from the us it's like if

[00:27:53] you're part of the mafia you're the rat right you went to the others to ask for help so I always looked at the others and was like I would love that I would love to be able like I used to look

[00:28:07] at women who have their hair up in a bun and I'd be like you don't even know like you're just you're so lucky that you could do anything you want with your hair and you're choosing to put it

[00:28:17] in a bun like you know what I mean like I was constantly coveting this world around me I wanted to be I wanted to go to university which was never going to be an option for me until I made

[00:28:28] it an option for myself and now I teach at university so hooray for you thank you I wanted to get a job I wanted to make my own money I wanted to live on my own I wanted all of these

[00:28:40] things that were going to be totally unattainable so I spent a lot of time in my own head just dreaming wishing hoping visualizing so yeah the the us versus them like training or indoctrination whatever the

[00:28:57] word is yes indoctrination exactly that didn't take for me because I saw the thems were kind to me they were kinder to me than the us's were so this isn't this isn't making any sense so yeah that

[00:29:12] was a big frustration for my mom that I wouldn't just she thought like she she felt like I was just a traitor and I always betrayed my people and stuff like that but I never felt I never felt guilty

[00:29:27] about it I just wanted to I wanted it for myself but I never thought it would be possible but once I had my daughter I was like no she will have this life she will be free there's no way I'm going to

[00:29:40] let her live the same way I've lived and I want to get to that in a minute how that helped you wake up before that can you share a little bit about what you talk about in your book regarding marriage

[00:29:50] and coercion in this faith yeah so what's most telling is that the woman doesn't even need to be or the girl doesn't even need to be present at her own wedding it can be completely done between

[00:30:05] the groom and her father or whoever her mahram is like whoever her male guardian is whether that be her father or her brother or her uncle or whoever and you're familiar of course with my

[00:30:18] podcast because you've been on it but I've had guests who have had the same experience one of them was in America where she just wasn't even there when her family married her off when she was 17

[00:30:33] so yeah you're so irrelevant in this in a marriage like the girl the bride is like completely irrelevant so for my personal experience I have to sort of backtrack a little bit and tell you

[00:30:47] that when I was 17 and I had finished high school my whole family went to Egypt on a holiday and then I woke up one morning and they were all gone they just left me and I was left in Egypt because

[00:31:03] my mom felt that it was a society that was more closed and so that I might be more easy easier to control me because out in the western world I was constantly looking out at the

[00:31:14] feminists and the liberals are going I want to be one of you but if I'm in a Muslim majority world then there's nothing to covet and so when I was there they tried to get me married off

[00:31:26] to one of my cousins and that didn't take I got out of Egypt before that happened but it really put a huge strain on my mom's relationship and it really embarrassed her that everybody in

[00:31:39] the family knew that I was defying her and so the next step after that was for her to marry me off to somebody that she had chosen and it goes back to that term that you introduced

[00:31:52] to us when you're on my podcast Sarah coercive choice so I was like told this is the man that we want you to marry and if you don't marry him you're not my daughter I want nothing

[00:32:05] to do with you don't come to my funeral I'm going to kick you out of the house I'll never love you yeah bounded choice from yin and yin love bounded choice sorry no no no same thing it was through

[00:32:15] a lot of like emotional blackmail and manipulation and me really just giving in in the end because I was so sick and tired of having such a bad relationship with my mom I just wanted her

[00:32:29] love me I wanted her to be proud of me I wanted her to be happy with something that I had done and so she told me later that she chose this man because he was strong enough to control me

[00:32:41] she chosen a terrorist he was an al-qaeda terrorist and I didn't know it at the time it wasn't until I was contacted by ccis who are like the canadian cia and yeah at that point I already had

[00:32:55] a daughter with him and he's now in prison in Egypt for more background on what brought us here check out my page turning memoir it's called scarred the true story of how I escaped next year I'm the

[00:33:07] cult that bound my life it's available on amazon audible and at most bookstores and if you want to see that story in streaming form you can watch both seasons of the vow on HBO meals bring

[00:33:20] people together but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating in macy's annual feeding the hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families now through january 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or

[00:33:39] watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at macy's this episode is sponsored by better help what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you

[00:33:55] never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep maybe that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well i definitely have some non-negotiables like i'm in Vancouver

[00:34:06] right now and i'm spending literally as much time as i can outside in nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the

[00:34:15] trees around me and i start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks i try to not miss it and i know i'm just gonna feel so much better all

[00:34:24] around if i make it a priority i get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so i can focus on what i really need and sometimes

[00:34:34] what i don't need like i don't need to be overbooking myself just because i hate to say no to people you know what i mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of

[00:34:41] starting therapy give better help or try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge look even when we know what

[00:34:56] makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy day with better help

[00:35:05] visit betterhelp.com slash culty today to get 10 off your first month that's better help help.com slash culty this winter take your icon pass north north to abundant access to powder skiing legacy to independent spirit north where easy to get to meets worlds away

[00:35:33] go north to snow basin now on the icon pass break time's over people let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty it's a good one we're obviously skipping some huge huge chunks of the

[00:35:51] story it's so hard no no but for the sake of our time and covering the key points can you describe how you woke up what was it like having a daughter and recognizing how wrong it was the way your

[00:36:04] mother had treated you that caused you to snap out of it when I have my daughter it made me realize that the intense love and desire to protect my daughter that I that my daughter didn't do anything

[00:36:17] to deserve it she just had to be and that was a huge moment of revelation for me because my whole life I felt like I needed to be better I wasn't good enough and that's why my mom didn't feel

[00:36:29] those feelings towards me and then I realized like wait my mom just never felt this way about me and then it kind of took the blame well not really the blame but it took the intense desire to keep

[00:36:42] working to keep trying to feed this black hole and maybe one day it'll be enough you know it made me realize like okay that is a complete waste of time that's not getting me anywhere

[00:36:54] because she just does not have whatever it is that I have towards my daughter we're capable of it yeah and so that didn't make me necessarily leave the religion but it made me want to get out of that

[00:37:07] marriage away from that man and away from my mom and through a long series of convoluted events that I won't get into I eventually was able to get away from both of them and that's when I

[00:37:22] started going to UBC and when I was at UBC I took a course called history of religions and I took it simply because it was going to be about the three Abrahamic religions

[00:37:35] and I already knew Islam inside out because my mom was the head of the Islamic studies department at the Islamic school and so we had to be really good at Islamic studies otherwise we would shame

[00:37:46] her so I was like you know what this will be an easy A so that's why I took the course not thinking that it was going to completely change the trajectory of my life so while I was in that

[00:37:55] course being intellectually bombarded with all of this information being allowed to critically think and critically analyze this religion for the first time in my life because asking questions is frowned upon as punished as just not allowed um 9-11 happened 9-11 happened at the same time

[00:38:16] and so then I was bombarded emotionally as well as intellectually and that's when I realized that I don't I don't I don't want to be a part of this religion anymore I don't want to

[00:38:29] be a part of this group I don't want to be a part of people who think that this is okay not only think it's okay celebrate it celebrate the deaths of these innocent Americans and I just didn't

[00:38:41] want to be associated with it anymore so I wanted to take off my hijab because I didn't want to physically I didn't want people to get the impression that I was part of this group because I was ashamed

[00:38:55] to have ever been part of it and that was the moment when the relationship with my mom and I was completely severed because she was just so horrified that I would take off my hijab wow

[00:39:07] there was a lot of de-separate wake up moments like the wake up to get away from your husband and little sidebar here just as a you know survivor of a different thing there were so many moments where

[00:39:18] I was thinking about like this is happening to you in Vancouver and I'm not far from you in the timeline like if I could go in a time in a time travel and like extract you I would have

[00:39:28] but also noting that there were some even though the judge made the mistake and there were so many people who missed it and didn't save you there were some incredible guardian angels I

[00:39:36] felt like that really did come out of the ward work including the woman who helped you get a divorce and file for restraining order in like half an hour like those moments I was just cheering

[00:39:45] I really feel like you need to make a movie out of your life just a sidebar because this is incredible but to wrap up this part of the episode again many things happen you woke up in

[00:39:54] different stages waking up from the relationship waking up from the connection to being a Muslim all these different points along the way when did you make the connection between what had happened to you and the patterns of indoctrination that occur in cults way too late

[00:40:15] same here I can't even remember I love documentaries like I'm always watching documentaries and I can't remember which one it was that started me down the rabbit hole of watching cult documentaries but I was feeling so validated when I was watching them because

[00:40:36] as a cult survivor you guys I'm sure will relate to this you feel so ashamed and stupid and it's like when you see other same people also getting sucked into things and doing

[00:40:52] nonsensical things it makes you feel like oh thank goodness I'm not alone like this was made me start to realize that my brain was hacked like our brains are easily hacked and first this moment

[00:41:08] of realization that oh my god I was part of a cult like this is what it was and then it was after that a period of just forgiving myself you know like not being so angry at myself for

[00:41:22] being so stupid and for not seeing it and for not walking away and for humanize yourself yeah I had to do it for other people first like I did it for all these random strangers on my screen and then

[00:41:33] I was I finally was able to like do it for myself and it kind of helped me to see my mom too because it's just so common like the single mom is like it's like a trope they get pulled into it all the time

[00:41:48] and you described it pretty well like what was going on with your mom that made her susceptible to it so yeah yeah and I finally discovered Dr. Stephen Hasson and then I went through the whole

[00:41:59] bite model with him and it's like my whole page is like green it's like I experienced all of these markers for what determines what a cult is I remember watching the Scientology one with

[00:42:15] Leah Remini and just being like I think maybe that was one of the moment like it was late it was really late you guys before I finally realized like whoa this is so similar to what

[00:42:25] I went through because this holy we talk about religions completely separately then we talk about cults and so that was the the line for me was I hadn't really made the connection but even within religions there are cults yeah and cultic behavior and you know we've covered

[00:42:42] fundamentalist Christianity here we've covered not even radical right wing Hasidic or anything just even orthodox Judaism we we covered a little bit so more there but we've not touched this and this is the thing that like Sarah and I were talking beforehand we have a lot of people

[00:42:58] writing us about a lot of things and the behaviors that are coming out of the extreme Islam is like painstakingly obvious yeah and we haven't received anything on it and it hasn't

[00:43:10] been on our radar for three years until it rears its head so which we will save for for the next episode and get into that before you move on I just want to tell you that you do have listeners

[00:43:24] though that are growing up that are living in Muslim households that are listening to your podcast and that are having their aha moments because they contact me and tell me about it

[00:43:35] that's great will you share here what you shared on yours yeah so there's I have an organization called free hearts free minds which helps people who have renounced us them like we go through we have group sessions individual sessions we have community support and I got to

[00:43:48] meet her in real life and one of the first things that she told me was that she was really excited that I was going to have Sarah on my podcast because it was through listening to a

[00:43:58] little bit cultie listening to other people's stories that she started to connect those dots and she realized like oh my god I'm in a cult like she had that moment because she was listening to

[00:44:09] your podcast amazing and then she started going down the rabbit hole of following Dr. Stephen Hassan and learning all about it and yada yada and that's what led her to my organization and now she's like a completely different person than she was when she had heard that episode

[00:44:23] fantastic makes me so happy and I and I hope I get to meet her I feel like our audience is so educated now that I don't even have to say it but just to sort of recap some of the things

[00:44:34] that were obvious process wise process wise like not being able to question they rhyme yeah they rhyme being isolated the s versus them the instilling of fear the loaded language which

[00:44:45] we're going to get into it's good to hear like we are a stop gap between like Stephen Hassan and you right because I think because we're not a religion where our story is kind of

[00:44:58] in the middle of those things people hear ours and if they want to know more they go to the experts and ultimately if they're going to you and Stephen Hassan I think we've done our job in

[00:45:08] terms of being a great conduit to people getting the education they need yeah it's safe to listen to your podcast because it doesn't it doesn't feel like it's like it's being pointed at them

[00:45:19] a little bit cold you know what I mean just a little bit just a little bit looking things it may or may not be culting just have a taste yeah see if it's culting

[00:45:31] if not turn it off right Ben Affleck exactly yeah yeah so did we miss anything that you feel it's important to know and we will put your organization on our resource page so that

[00:45:44] if anyone listening needs that support they can connect with you and obviously all of your credentials where could people find you what's the best way to reach out and connect with you I'm on X formerly known as Twitter um under Yasmin Muhammad and I'm also on Instagram and

[00:45:59] on Facebook you can also contact me through my website Yasmin Muhammad dot com that's about it great if there's anyone listening who feels that they are wanting to unfollow us or that we

[00:46:12] are being racist or whatever do you have any words of wisdom for those people who might be riled up that hurts yeah that is painful to me that people feel like our stories like the people

[00:46:29] like me who have renounced us them like that us sharing our stories is like so bad that the platforms that give us voices are demonized as well like it's just so inhuman for people to even

[00:46:44] have that thought you know like you can bring cult survivors from all walks of life and they're all listened to and they're all wanted and they're all celebrated and they're all appreciated I'm sorry this is like really emotional for me it's hurtful it's just hurtful that not

[00:47:04] only is it difficult for us to get our stories out because we are risking our lives we're the only ones that are risking our lives to blow this whistle so it's so difficult already you know

[00:47:19] but you get through all of those obstacles and you're like no I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it and then you speak out and then you get attacked by your so-called

[00:47:30] progressive liberal open-minded people on the left that are supposed to be embracing free expression and embracing your freedom of mind you know they're the ones that are in some honestly sometimes just as aggressive as the other side they're not as violent obviously but they can be

[00:47:51] just as mean it's shocking and it's hurtful yeah it is hurtful with their words and it just to point out for our listeners like a couple episodes ago we talked to survivors from shiny happy people and everyone's you know outraged with Bill Gotherd playing you know footsies

[00:48:09] with the victims as they're praying and that's obviously like wildly inappropriate and everyone suffered different types of abuse and trauma in that space and can they go wow this is like it's almost like they close their eyes when Islam is involved right like

[00:48:23] the atrocities on the scale are like I don't want to say what happened to you as a child but when you describe the abuse that you endured I mean it's not as it is above and beyond anything I've

[00:48:35] ever heard of a child and it makes me want to find that judge yeah it's the worst and and again like this is not the trauma Olympics we're not trying to you know put down everyone's endured

[00:48:46] different types of trauma I just feel like there's not the appropriate outrage with what you endured and I love what you said your minds are trying to be so open that our brains

[00:48:55] fall out it's one of the things that makes me the least proud to be a progressive Canadian when I see that to be totally honest and I assume you feel the same way so thank you all for listening

[00:49:05] thank you Yezmin for your truth for your bravery you're literally nobody knows where you are right because you need to protect yourself this is a next level of bravery and

[00:49:14] I really applaud you for that and thank you very much you like what you hear please do give us a rating a review and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen every little bit helps us get this

[00:49:26] cult awareness content out there smash that subscribe button you know what to do I really feel like a one hour interview does not do this book justice or Yasmin's life her struggle justice I cannot recommend it enough it was a real eye-opener listening to it especially on audible

[00:49:45] and Yasmin's voice was really moving for me and I can't thank her enough for her time on our podcast and thank you for supporting a little bit culty stay safe everybody and be kind so

[00:50:14] thanks for listening everyone we're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culty now to discuss this episode in the meantime dear listener please remember this podcast is solely for general informational educational and entertainment purposes it's not intended as a substitute for real

[00:50:31] medical legal or therapeutic advice for cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world check out a little bit culty dot com slash culty resources and don't

[00:50:42] miss Sarah's TED talk called how cult literate are you great stuff a little bit culty is a trace 120 production executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound and our co-creator and show chaplain slash

[00:50:57] bodyguard Jess Temple-Tardy our show writer is Holly Zadra and our theme song cultivated is by John Bryant meals bring people together but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating in Macy's annual Feeding the Hungry food drive all proceeds go

[00:51:19] toward local food banks and families now through January 31st you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase

[00:51:31] will be donated to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep i mean that's

[00:51:49] my personal and everyone's dream isn't it well i definitely have some non-negotiables like i'm in Vancouver right now and i'm spending literally as much time as i can outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh

[00:52:03] air and the trees around me and i start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks i try to not miss it and i know i'm just gonna feel so much

[00:52:12] better all around if i make it a priority i get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so i can focus on what i

[00:52:21] really need and sometimes what i don't need like i don't need to be overbooking myself just because i hate to say no to people you know what i mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that

[00:52:29] and if you're thinking of starting therapy give BetterHelp a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional

[00:52:42] charge look even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip therapy day with BetterHelp visit betterhelp.com

[00:52:55] slash culty today to get 10% off your first month that's better help help.com slash culty this winter take your icon past north north to abundant access to powder skiing legacy to independent spirit north where easy to get to meets worlds away go north to snow basin

[00:53:26] now on the icon pass