Whitney Cummings: Healing, Humor, and Hollywood's Culty Side

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[00:00:30] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:54] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:56] And I'm Anthony Nippy Ames.

[00:00:57] And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:00] Cults are commonplace now. From fandoms to fads, we're examining them all. We look at what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:01:08] Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real culty stories told directly by the people who lived through them. Because we want you to learn a few things that we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:19] For example, if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty, you might be prime recruitment material. And who knows? You could already be in a cult.

[00:01:28] If you're not aware of your programming, you're probably being programmed. So keep listening to find out.

[00:01:33] We'll talk about all sorts of topics on the show, but be aware, this podcast might contain stories that could be alarming to some of our listeners.

[00:01:40] So please check our show notes for more detailed descriptions and take care of yourself.

[00:01:45] Subscribe to our Patreon for Thursday bonus episodes, Q&A, and all sorts of exclusive content.

[00:01:50] That's patreon.com slash a little bit culty.

[00:01:52] Welcome to season seven of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:02:10] This is probably the most overdue podcast in podcast history, maybe?

[00:02:16] In the history of podcasts, yep.

[00:02:18] This podcast is overdue even before we had a podcast.

[00:02:21] Correct.

[00:02:22] When did she first slide into your DMs?

[00:02:25] Winnie Cummings, our guest today, our esteemed guest and friend and incredible comedian and actress and mother,

[00:02:33] slid into my DMs in September of 2020, September 29th, and said,

[00:02:38] okay, wow, I love you in a healthy way.

[00:02:41] You're a warrior, badass, goddess.

[00:02:42] Would you come on my podcast?

[00:02:44] We can fly you and cover a hotel if you don't live in LA, blah, blah, blah.

[00:02:47] There's a bunch of other stuff.

[00:02:47] But I called her back.

[00:02:50] I had taken an Ativan because this was a very stressful time when The Vow was airing in September of 2020.

[00:02:55] And I think I recall having a very slurred conversation.

[00:02:58] I'm not a big proponent of Ativan.

[00:03:00] It helped me through a very stressful time and was the beginning of a long friendship since September of 2020.

[00:03:05] And then COVID happened.

[00:03:06] We couldn't go do it.

[00:03:06] And we started our podcast.

[00:03:08] Yeah, we never were able to go.

[00:03:09] And she's on our podcast first.

[00:03:11] Yep.

[00:03:11] We beat you, Whitney.

[00:03:12] We beat you to the punch.

[00:03:13] Well, she came to Atlanta.

[00:03:14] That was helpful.

[00:03:15] She was here doing a show.

[00:03:17] And I said, I see you're coming.

[00:03:18] A, we want to see your show.

[00:03:19] We've been to another one of her shows in Vancouver, which is amazing.

[00:03:22] She's hilarious.

[00:03:22] She's a force.

[00:03:23] If you don't know her work, right, as a comedian, check her out.

[00:03:27] She's awesome.

[00:03:27] I just stare at her in awe of what she's able to do on stage.

[00:03:32] Let's go through her routine.

[00:03:34] First of all, I noticed it when she was in Vancouver.

[00:03:37] She came in and she's like, you guys want to come backstage?

[00:03:39] I was like, you don't need your prep time?

[00:03:40] She's in there kind of like stretching out, reading it.

[00:03:42] Putting on makeup.

[00:03:43] What should I say about Vancouver?

[00:03:44] Goes out, bangs out her show, goes home.

[00:03:46] And this is, mind you, while she was getting a show in between while she was shooting something

[00:03:50] in Toronto.

[00:03:51] So she went, boom, boom.

[00:03:52] She's a machine.

[00:03:53] And then she did the same thing in Atlanta.

[00:03:55] She came here.

[00:03:56] Comes in with her boyfriend.

[00:03:57] Who's awesome.

[00:03:58] Comes in, throwing olives back, you know, before the show.

[00:04:00] She's like, oh, time for me to go on.

[00:04:02] And bangs out her show.

[00:04:03] I'm like, wouldn't you have been freaking out before?

[00:04:04] We recorded this podcast in the hour and a bit before she's going on stage in front

[00:04:09] of a sizable audience.

[00:04:10] If it was me, I'd be like, I need to meditate and get in the zone, get my hair and makeup

[00:04:14] done.

[00:04:14] She's just like, she's such a pro.

[00:04:16] So this conversation is definitely not our normal format.

[00:04:20] It's-

[00:04:21] But I think it's Whitney Cummings too, right?

[00:04:23] Yes.

[00:04:24] And we had a lot of things to talk to her about, specifically culty stuff in Hollywood.

[00:04:28] We talked about other things too.

[00:04:30] And there are many tabs unclosed.

[00:04:32] For the OCD listener out there, there's a lot of tabs that are unclosed and she said

[00:04:37] we can close them when we go on hers.

[00:04:39] So we're going to have to circle back on Good For You, her podcast.

[00:04:43] Please do check it out.

[00:04:44] Totally different than our podcast.

[00:04:45] Bop, bop, bop.

[00:04:45] Bop, bop, bop.

[00:04:47] She's amazing.

[00:04:48] Please enjoy our totally tangential and entertaining talk with our dear friend about culty stuff

[00:04:56] in Hollywood, Whitney Cummings.

[00:04:59] Enjoy.

[00:05:12] I don't even want to talk about cults.

[00:05:14] I want to know about you guys.

[00:05:15] Like how is life and how is a baby?

[00:05:17] Oh my gosh, it is so wild.

[00:05:19] I, um, yeah, I have a 10 month old.

[00:05:22] You know, it's interesting.

[00:05:23] This is maybe how we start this is I was 39, comedian, childless, prime vulnerable for

[00:05:30] a cult.

[00:05:31] If I had better wifi at my house, I think I would have gotten involved.

[00:05:34] It's interesting because I've been thinking, because I was like in this kind of search for

[00:05:38] meaning, kind of existential crisis after the pandemic.

[00:05:40] During the pandemic, I tried most of the drugs and none of them fixed anything.

[00:05:45] Ketamine?

[00:05:45] Ketamine.

[00:05:46] I did the ketamine nasal spray.

[00:05:47] I've never done straight ketamine.

[00:05:49] Me neither.

[00:05:49] DMT?

[00:05:50] Never done DMT.

[00:05:51] It's the only one I'm curious about.

[00:05:52] People love it.

[00:05:53] Is that Molly?

[00:05:54] No, that's the frog.

[00:05:55] I think it's the frog one.

[00:05:56] The frog.

[00:05:57] I don't.

[00:05:57] Because there's Bufo.

[00:05:59] There's a couple.

[00:05:59] Neil Brennan is a great person to talk about.

[00:06:01] Only because it's quick and it's over.

[00:06:03] Excuse me.

[00:06:04] Don't talk about my sex life right there.

[00:06:06] Sorry, that was wild.

[00:06:08] Ketamine nasal spray with oxytocin.

[00:06:10] Yes.

[00:06:11] And it only lasts like 30 minutes or so and you forgive everyone.

[00:06:15] I mean, I didn't realize how many resentments I was just walking around with because you

[00:06:18] think about the people that hurt you and you're like, oh, I have to forgive them.

[00:06:21] And you're like, wait, what about the people that were there when that person hurt me?

[00:06:24] I'm mad at them too for letting it happen.

[00:06:26] I didn't even realize how much sort of like crystallized anger I had.

[00:06:30] Is that universal that forgiveness is the thing that everyone goes to or is that just

[00:06:35] yours?

[00:06:36] That's a good question.

[00:06:36] I think it's part of it.

[00:06:38] And I already was like, you know, I'm in this like Al-Anon 12-step program.

[00:06:41] But like, so I was already on some like, we forgive others not because they deserve forgiveness,

[00:06:45] but because we deserve peace.

[00:06:46] Yes.

[00:06:46] So it's like I had already kind of had that in my brain.

[00:06:49] So I think maybe when you're trying, for me, what happened was all the things I couldn't

[00:06:53] get to stick stuck.

[00:06:55] So whatever you're trying to get to stick might stick.

[00:06:58] So what you get intellectually is permanent, so to speak.

[00:07:02] Like if you're like, I need to work on boundaries and I can't solve it.

[00:07:04] I can't figure out how to draw this boundary.

[00:07:06] And then you do it.

[00:07:07] And then all of a sudden it's like magically like whatever your block was.

[00:07:09] That's what happened with me.

[00:07:10] And it stayed that way.

[00:07:11] It's permanent.

[00:07:12] Yes.

[00:07:13] I believe it's permanent.

[00:07:14] I actually was like, I have to stop because I'm starting to like forgive my abusers.

[00:07:18] I'm like hurt people, hurt people.

[00:07:20] And if someone abused, they were abused too.

[00:07:23] I should, you know what?

[00:07:24] That poor thing.

[00:07:25] I mean, I was almost going-

[00:07:26] That's a slippery slope.

[00:07:27] It was almost too much empathy.

[00:07:28] I know.

[00:07:29] I was letting people back in my life that were like really dangerous.

[00:07:31] No P. Diddy.

[00:07:32] No, I stopped going to the free golf parties.

[00:07:35] So that and then you kind of get to a point where you're like, huh, okay.

[00:07:39] Like I can pay my bills.

[00:07:41] I'm, you know, have done all the healing I can do.

[00:07:44] Both my parents died.

[00:07:46] You know, now what?

[00:07:48] What's, then I started thinking about like what people call like the God-sized hole, you

[00:07:51] know?

[00:07:52] And like, you know, when you're in a public figure, which you two now are, there's this

[00:07:56] thing that happens.

[00:07:57] And by the way, I think this applies to everybody.

[00:07:59] If you run the local Chipotle or if you manage, everyone wants something from you.

[00:08:04] You know what I mean?

[00:08:04] There's always some hierarchy, whether it's in Hollywood or podcasting or whatever.

[00:08:07] So, but even if you're like the big guy at the local car dealership, people are going

[00:08:11] to have a predatory, you know, need something from you.

[00:08:14] And I kind of was like, ah, I would love to have a community that like we're all there

[00:08:19] for the same reason, but they don't care what I do.

[00:08:21] And I just like, you know, want to connect with people about something bigger.

[00:08:26] I don't know.

[00:08:26] It was just kind of like a thing.

[00:08:27] And I was like, all right, am I going to explore like church?

[00:08:30] Am I like, what am I doing?

[00:08:31] What's the plan?

[00:08:31] Good thing I wasn't a NXIVM right then.

[00:08:33] I would have just plucked you out and put you in.

[00:08:34] Oh, I would.

[00:08:35] Put you in.

[00:08:35] Well, here's the thing.

[00:08:36] I'm also obsessed with the neuroscience of like cults and religions of like productivity

[00:08:41] and cooperation make dopamine, you know?

[00:08:43] Like it's a big reason I make sure I'm still always doing chores.

[00:08:45] Like I love doing chores.

[00:08:46] I love being productive.

[00:08:47] Like, you know, I'm in, I mean, look, can our 12-step programs a cult?

[00:08:50] That's a good question.

[00:08:51] That's a question for you guys.

[00:08:52] We actually did an episode on it and it wasn't a good enough episode to air because I think

[00:08:56] we have to be really solid with that because some of them I think are great.

[00:08:59] I think it depends who's running it.

[00:09:00] Of course.

[00:09:01] Yeah.

[00:09:01] But there are inherent problems with the whole structure, I think.

[00:09:04] But also it's helped so many people.

[00:09:06] So you could go to 12-step in LA and the one in San Diego can be like.

[00:09:09] Totally different.

[00:09:10] And there are going to be certain people that take advantage, but it is kind of written

[00:09:13] at least in the Al-Anon steps that there's like no concentration of power.

[00:09:17] Like people change roles every two months.

[00:09:19] It's all volunteer basis, you know, whatever.

[00:09:21] But you find yourself like when I first started sponsoring people, I find myself being like,

[00:09:25] I'm just a lord of these.

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:27] You kind of feel it.

[00:09:28] You're like, I'm the boss.

[00:09:29] But then we have these things.

[00:09:30] Wait for the question.

[00:09:31] You never give advice.

[00:09:32] There's all these kind of.

[00:09:33] I wouldn't be able to do that.

[00:09:35] I like to give advice.

[00:09:35] It's really hard.

[00:09:36] It's really hard.

[00:09:37] You do.

[00:09:37] I'm going to start another podcast.

[00:09:38] It's called Unsolicited Advice.

[00:09:40] Yes, please.

[00:09:40] Right?

[00:09:40] And she's just going to follow us around our house.

[00:09:43] But I'm obsessed with unsolicited advice because I don't know what to ask.

[00:09:46] Like when I was just pregnant and having a kid.

[00:09:48] I think I texted you like, could I give you some advice?

[00:09:50] Just tell me because I don't even know what to ask.

[00:09:52] I don't like, please just tell me what to do.

[00:09:55] Like I like being domed.

[00:09:57] That's my thing about cults.

[00:09:58] Yeah.

[00:09:59] I like being domed because I'm so dominant in my work life than in my personal life.

[00:10:03] I'm like, please just tell me what to do.

[00:10:04] Please just make the decision.

[00:10:06] Please just, I just want to follow you through the airport.

[00:10:08] I always say to Chris, like just walk.

[00:10:10] Can I just please just follow you?

[00:10:11] And I think that, you know, it's funny because I haven't really talked about this much,

[00:10:15] but you guys know I was rejected by Scientology, right?

[00:10:17] I vaguely remember that, that you tried.

[00:10:20] Yeah.

[00:10:20] No, I do.

[00:10:21] You know they passed on me, right?

[00:10:23] I get to Los Angeles.

[00:10:25] Okay.

[00:10:25] I grew up like on farm.

[00:10:27] I spent time living in an apartment in DC, back and forth, whatever.

[00:10:30] Didn't have anything.

[00:10:31] To LA.

[00:10:32] No, no, no.

[00:10:32] Sorry.

[00:10:33] DC and Virginia.

[00:10:34] Lived on a farm in Virginia.

[00:10:35] Like never had stability.

[00:10:36] Never had, you know, family.

[00:10:38] Never had, and this is who they, you know, pray on.

[00:10:40] Parents divorced?

[00:10:40] Parents divorced.

[00:10:40] I mean, come on.

[00:10:42] Okay.

[00:10:42] Yeah.

[00:10:42] We shouldn't.

[00:10:43] That's obvious.

[00:10:44] Okay.

[00:10:44] Let's.

[00:10:44] Okay.

[00:10:45] Grow up.

[00:10:46] Okay.

[00:10:47] Let's just be an adult about this.

[00:10:49] I'm sorry.

[00:10:50] And so, and so I just never had any kind of stability.

[00:10:54] I was very lucky that, you know, I got to grow up around animals.

[00:10:57] There was a lot of abuse in the home when I was living in Virginia.

[00:11:00] And I was able to just like go out, you know, as a kid and like sleep with the horses.

[00:11:03] And there were 14 dogs.

[00:11:04] So I was like, I really appreciated the way that dogs and horses, the herds and the packs are

[00:11:10] very honest.

[00:11:11] They're very direct.

[00:11:12] You know, there's a hierarchy.

[00:11:13] It's just, I really appreciated that order and that directness.

[00:11:16] You know, they forgive very quickly.

[00:11:18] You see horses like the lead mare will say like, get out of my space.

[00:11:21] We'll set a boundary.

[00:11:22] Totally fine.

[00:11:22] And then everything's over.

[00:11:23] All that and horses?

[00:11:24] Horses.

[00:11:25] Yes.

[00:11:25] Horses teach you like, you know, that people pretty much respect you as much as you respect

[00:11:30] yourself.

[00:11:30] Like people take the cues from you of how to treat you kind of thing.

[00:11:33] Like I learned so much from them that I was like, I want to be in a herd.

[00:11:36] I want to be in a pack.

[00:11:38] And as an adult, it's kind of like, well, humans don't really do that.

[00:11:41] I'm not going to be like a sports fan or a politics person.

[00:11:44] So like, I guess I'm going to be like, cult sounds good, you know?

[00:11:46] And I had such a bad experience with religion, you know, growing up and went to Catholic school.

[00:11:50] That'll do it.

[00:11:52] And also there was so much hypocrisy in my home.

[00:11:53] I, you know, we would go to church that was like, don't lie.

[00:11:55] Don't.

[00:11:56] And then my parents would lie.

[00:11:57] So I just, I was like, it all felt very performative and like uncomfortable and I didn't get it.

[00:12:02] And I come to LA and I'm like, you know, come from not having money.

[00:12:06] And you go to LA, like you been like, yeah, it's kind of a shithole.

[00:12:10] Yeah.

[00:12:10] I was like, I'm going to Hollywood to escape my circumstances.

[00:12:13] Like the glitz and the glamour and you get there and it's just like homeless people with machetes.

[00:12:18] You're like, this is not what I thought.

[00:12:19] It's like stucco buildings that you're sharing an apartment with four people.

[00:12:22] It's pretty rapid.

[00:12:23] It's yeah.

[00:12:24] And then a friend of mine, so the way Scientology used to work, fascinating, is back when there

[00:12:29] was kind of a very clear trajectory of someone's movie career.

[00:12:34] It used to be pretty predictable.

[00:12:35] Like if you got one studio movie as like the third friend or the sidekick's girlfriend,

[00:12:41] then you would get this publicist and the machine would start.

[00:12:44] You'd get a great publicist.

[00:12:45] They would, you do the fashion shows and then you'd get the talk shows.

[00:12:48] And then you were in the studio movie system and it was kind of guaranteed you become a star

[00:12:52] on some level.

[00:12:53] Yes, sir.

[00:12:53] Are you, are you going in as Whitney Cummings actress?

[00:12:57] Are you just someone who's just curious about the curriculum?

[00:13:00] Like, cause there's a distinction there.

[00:13:02] To Scientology?

[00:13:03] Yeah.

[00:13:03] Okay.

[00:13:03] Yeah.

[00:13:04] Were you marked?

[00:13:05] I was, no, I had a friend.

[00:13:07] So you're random?

[00:13:08] Jennifer Goodwin.

[00:13:08] Okay.

[00:13:09] So she gets a movie called Mona Lisa Smile.

[00:13:12] Okay.

[00:13:12] And she's brilliant.

[00:13:13] It's Julia Roberts, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Kirsten does.

[00:13:16] Jennifer Goodwin.

[00:13:16] She comes out of Boston University.

[00:13:18] She's amazing.

[00:13:19] And it's clear that I'm like trying to be a comic running around just being a maniac,

[00:13:23] $40,000 in debt.

[00:13:25] Like I'm not in that, but I'm going to a place called, this is going to, I don't, I'm not

[00:13:29] scared of Scientology.

[00:13:30] No, me neither.

[00:13:31] I'm going to a place called.

[00:13:31] We pissed on that planet.

[00:13:32] By the way, come for.

[00:13:33] Come for me.

[00:13:33] Do it.

[00:13:34] Do it.

[00:13:34] Do what I mean?

[00:13:35] Well, you know that I have this whole thing where I did have a manic episode after my

[00:13:38] mom died because I went off birth control and Prozac in the same week and started microdosing

[00:13:42] mushrooms.

[00:13:43] And I did set up a phone call with a maritime lawyer to find the Scientology ships.

[00:13:49] I'm just fascinated by the business model.

[00:13:51] I did not know that.

[00:13:52] I'm looking to pay a little less taxes.

[00:13:54] It seems like a lot of these cults have figured it out.

[00:13:56] Just go offshore.

[00:13:56] But they go offshore.

[00:13:57] And the stuff that they're able to get away with offshore is obviously well.

[00:14:00] So I had-

[00:14:01] Just 30 miles, I think.

[00:14:02] Oh, really?

[00:14:03] I think, yeah.

[00:14:04] And there's a reason like when you see like the Cannes Film Festival and stuff, all the

[00:14:08] billionaires are on boats.

[00:14:10] Instead of at the six-star hotel, like why aren't you just in the hotel looking at the

[00:14:14] beach?

[00:14:15] Why would you be in the ocean looking at the hotel?

[00:14:17] Because you want to be a creep.

[00:14:19] And so I had incidentally known someone that went into Scientology.

[00:14:25] I mean, I'm like a- I'm 21 years old.

[00:14:27] And we have like the same publicists.

[00:14:28] We're going to like stupid things.

[00:14:29] You know, I'm going to Buffalo Exchange, like exchanging my stuff for like a BB dress to

[00:14:35] wear.

[00:14:35] I mean, we're like nobodies.

[00:14:37] She had a boyfriend that was born into Scientology.

[00:14:38] And we were friends.

[00:14:40] And as she started- started by going to the gym.

[00:14:43] So it was like she would- she's like, oh, I just go to the gym at the Scientology center.

[00:14:46] The Scientology has her own gym?

[00:14:48] I didn't know that.

[00:14:48] But she's not in Scientology.

[00:14:49] She's just going to the gym.

[00:14:51] And I'm like, oh, okay, cool.

[00:14:53] They have a gym?

[00:14:54] It's like sick.

[00:14:55] And then she's got water.

[00:14:57] It's just Scientology water.

[00:14:58] She's drinking from a water- which- lithium, I'm not sure exactly what's in it.

[00:15:01] Blessed by Oron.

[00:15:02] Is that it?

[00:15:03] I don't know.

[00:15:03] And then- so then I'm like, it should just be Kool-Aid.

[00:15:06] Like it just should be actual Kool-Aid.

[00:15:08] And so then she's got these vitamins she's taking that are like-

[00:15:11] It's niacin.

[00:15:12] It's niacin, right?

[00:15:14] Yes.

[00:15:14] Yeah.

[00:15:14] So then she's taking- and I'm like, this is like a GN- this thing is like a GNC.

[00:15:19] Yeah, it's a health complex.

[00:15:19] Look at this thing.

[00:15:21] Yeah.

[00:15:21] They're doing saunas.

[00:15:22] And then doing all this stuff.

[00:15:24] And then she's not hanging out as much.

[00:15:26] And then she's not taking my call.

[00:15:28] So I did have that background, right?

[00:15:30] I had known that.

[00:15:31] She went into it.

[00:15:32] And I was like, okay, whatever.

[00:15:33] Didn't think much of it.

[00:15:34] So then Jennifer Goodwin, she's in a big studio movie and is great.

[00:15:39] And I'll not say this actress's name, although she is famous as a Scientologist,

[00:15:43] asks Ginny to go to brunch, right?

[00:15:45] And she's like, do you want to come to this brunch with me?

[00:15:47] It's at this address.

[00:15:47] Something, something Hollywood Boulevard.

[00:15:49] It's not like a restaurant or something.

[00:15:50] Of course.

[00:15:51] So I go, we drive into this.

[00:15:53] It's like a castle.

[00:15:55] You've seen it on Franklin?

[00:15:56] Yeah.

[00:15:56] I'm like, this is Hollywood.

[00:15:58] Yeah.

[00:15:59] This is it.

[00:16:00] Yeah.

[00:16:00] I want-

[00:16:01] This-

[00:16:02] I made it.

[00:16:03] Yeah.

[00:16:03] Whatever this is, I'm in.

[00:16:05] Wow.

[00:16:06] This bullshit, like, you know, $600 studio apartment I have with roaches down the street.

[00:16:10] That is not-

[00:16:11] This is Hollywood.

[00:16:12] Like, I've arrived.

[00:16:13] Like, I'm here.

[00:16:13] We get out.

[00:16:14] They take your car, by the way.

[00:16:15] They take your keys, take your car for like three hours.

[00:16:18] You don't get your car back.

[00:16:18] Like, you can't go out and say, like, can I have my car back?

[00:16:20] We go to this brunch.

[00:16:21] And so we go in.

[00:16:23] And by the way, I'm $40,000 in debt.

[00:16:24] Like, I don't-

[00:16:24] Whatever.

[00:16:25] And we go in and like, I don't know if you've ever met the Sizzler.

[00:16:29] The brunch on Sundays, they have pudding at the salad bar, cottage cheese.

[00:16:35] They had the separate-

[00:16:36] What are they called?

[00:16:37] Merino cherries?

[00:16:38] Merino cherries.

[00:16:39] I was like, I'm-

[00:16:40] Maraschino.

[00:16:41] Yeah.

[00:16:41] Thank you.

[00:16:41] We're at this-

[00:16:42] I'm like, I'm at Salisbury Steak.

[00:16:44] They've got-

[00:16:45] They've got-

[00:16:45] I'm like, yes.

[00:16:46] Where-

[00:16:51] Brunch, pudding, chocolate pudding at the bar.

[00:16:53] They have sweet tea.

[00:16:54] They have Arnabon.

[00:16:55] I'm like, yes.

[00:16:56] What do I do?

[00:16:57] And then the guy-

[00:16:57] Sweet tea would get me.

[00:16:58] Giovanni Verbisi's there.

[00:16:59] The guy from Lost is there.

[00:17:00] I'm like, say no more.

[00:17:01] Like, how do I get into this thing?

[00:17:03] Wow.

[00:17:03] Yeah.

[00:17:03] Okay?

[00:17:04] And then they take you on this tour.

[00:17:06] You can start living there right away.

[00:17:09] Living there?

[00:17:10] Living there.

[00:17:11] They will give you an apartment.

[00:17:12] They will give you a job.

[00:17:13] Like, it is so appealing.

[00:17:15] And you know what I mean?

[00:17:16] It is-

[00:17:16] I'm like, yes, Blake.

[00:17:17] Yep.

[00:17:18] Great.

[00:17:18] I would like-

[00:17:18] I'll live here.

[00:17:19] And they were like, they were trying to get to Ginny.

[00:17:22] Meanwhile, I'm just like, where do I sign up?

[00:17:23] I'm available.

[00:17:24] Like, what do we do?

[00:17:25] You know, they've got a look.

[00:17:26] It's gorgeous inside.

[00:17:27] They have a hospital.

[00:17:28] They have a hospital.

[00:17:28] I see the gym.

[00:17:29] I see the water.

[00:17:30] They also have their own hospital.

[00:17:32] I don't even know what goes on in there.

[00:17:34] I don't know.

[00:17:35] The lobotomies or something.

[00:17:36] I don't know.

[00:17:37] And then they were not interested in me.

[00:17:39] They were seeking out, you know, Ginny, obviously, because she was a big movie star and friends

[00:17:43] with another movie star that was in there.

[00:17:45] Didn't want anything to do with me.

[00:17:46] I'm like signing up for the pamphlets.

[00:17:47] They never sent me a pamphlet.

[00:17:48] Like nothing.

[00:17:49] There was no.

[00:17:50] But I was also going to this theater called the Beverly Hills Playhouse, which is like

[00:17:53] a feeding.

[00:17:54] I didn't realize it was a feeding system for Scientology.

[00:17:56] And that acting school's whole philosophy, I always found it so weird, is they would

[00:18:02] like, I think you can get away with pretty much anything.

[00:18:05] And the way you get power is to convince someone else that they have power.

[00:18:09] Right?

[00:18:10] This is what, you know.

[00:18:11] Part of it, yeah.

[00:18:11] It's like 101.

[00:18:12] Yeah.

[00:18:13] Going like, you have the power to change your life.

[00:18:14] Right?

[00:18:15] Yeah.

[00:18:15] You have the power to change your life.

[00:18:17] And the thing was always like, oh, you had that casting director meeting today and it

[00:18:20] didn't go well.

[00:18:20] Write them a thank you note.

[00:18:22] Go by and drop it.

[00:18:23] It gave you something to do.

[00:18:25] That's the most cringe thing you can do is go by a casting director's office after you've

[00:18:29] already bombed an audition and give them a gift.

[00:18:30] That's like psycho and creepy.

[00:18:32] But it was always that.

[00:18:33] It was always some like, there was always like a solution.

[00:18:36] Instead of just like get better at acting, it was like write a thank you note.

[00:18:39] Write in a journal.

[00:18:39] And then there were these little groups they would be in.

[00:18:42] But the instructor was always so wildly inappropriate.

[00:18:45] And I didn't understand what was really inappropriate at the time.

[00:18:48] I came from such an inappropriate home.

[00:18:49] But it was a lot of like, what's going on with your sexuality?

[00:18:53] Like in front of people.

[00:18:54] It was like humiliating someone in front of people to create like a Stockholm Syndrome

[00:18:58] and like creating a problem that didn't exist under the pressure of an audience watching

[00:19:02] in a weird way.

[00:19:03] Sounds like a lot of acting classes.

[00:19:05] Probably.

[00:19:06] Yeah.

[00:19:06] Probably to be honest.

[00:19:07] And to get the love or approval of this deity acting teacher.

[00:19:13] And it was like, what's going on with your sexuality?

[00:19:15] What happened?

[00:19:15] Like what happened when you were a kid?

[00:19:17] Like tell us.

[00:19:18] And then people would just start sobbing.

[00:19:19] And it was just like.

[00:19:19] You gave me flashbacks to so many of those classes.

[00:19:21] I was in a very culty acting class before NXIVM.

[00:19:24] And I left because it was culty.

[00:19:26] I didn't leave.

[00:19:27] I have no, I'm in on cults.

[00:19:29] I'm just looking for the right one.

[00:19:30] No, we have to get you out.

[00:19:31] I was thinking about this earlier.

[00:19:32] How do we get you out of LA?

[00:19:33] I feel like it's time.

[00:19:34] Oh, I'm trying.

[00:19:34] I'm trying.

[00:19:35] My guy has kids in California.

[00:19:38] The cult I'm in is California.

[00:19:39] I give them 30% of my money.

[00:19:41] Great segue.

[00:19:42] It's totally ruining my life.

[00:19:44] It's a total con.

[00:19:45] Like Gavin Newsom is my key.

[00:19:47] It's like a nightmare.

[00:19:48] But I know it's a con job.

[00:19:50] I just, I cannot get out this moment.

[00:19:51] But I'm looking.

[00:19:52] I'm looking.

[00:19:53] Where do you think you guys go?

[00:19:53] We're looking Pennsylvania, where Chris is originally from.

[00:19:57] Virginia, Texas.

[00:19:59] Look, Austin is where a lot of comedians have gone.

[00:20:01] You know, I love it there.

[00:20:03] You've got friends there.

[00:20:04] Yeah.

[00:20:04] I've been meaning to tell you, I was going to text you, I'm saving it for this.

[00:20:06] I heard recently you say that you are a people pleaser and I didn't know that about you.

[00:20:11] And I am also a people pleaser.

[00:20:12] And my therapist recently just said, because I tend to overcommit.

[00:20:16] And that's why I said to you, like, if this is too much for you, like, please tell me.

[00:20:19] Because I say yes to things I shouldn't.

[00:20:22] She says, if it's not immediately, fuck yes.

[00:20:25] Like, if there's like, yeah, but, like, then it's a no.

[00:20:27] If it's not a hell yes, then it's a no.

[00:20:28] And then look at your motives.

[00:20:29] Yes.

[00:20:30] Why are you doing it?

[00:20:30] Why are you doing it?

[00:20:31] Yeah.

[00:20:31] What are you getting out of it?

[00:20:32] Do you feel bad?

[00:20:32] Do you feel like you should?

[00:20:34] If you're doing it out of obligation, if you're keeping score, if you're doing it because

[00:20:37] you think you should.

[00:20:38] It's the best thing that's happened because I can just ask her instead of trying to talk

[00:20:41] her out of it.

[00:20:42] Yeah.

[00:20:42] Here's the good news for our relationship is that, and that's why when you were like,

[00:20:47] can you get me something?

[00:20:47] I was like, no.

[00:20:48] I know that.

[00:20:49] I know what you're doing.

[00:20:50] I do it.

[00:20:51] But because I love you, I'm just going to take this off your plate and be super direct.

[00:20:54] Yeah.

[00:20:54] I've been in ACA, Al-Anon, codependence recovery for about 12 years.

[00:20:59] And the good news about me is that I never do anything I don't want to do.

[00:21:02] And I like to, I always tell my friends anymore.

[00:21:05] Yes.

[00:21:05] I always tell my friends that, like, you never have to worry about me.

[00:21:08] If I want something, I'll ask.

[00:21:09] So that you don't have to, like, perseverate and, like, how can I help?

[00:21:12] And it's also, like, I do.

[00:21:14] I mean, literally, like, in my program, a lot of my bottom lines are, like, no gifts.

[00:21:19] Only one holiday gift for someone.

[00:21:21] It can only be $100.

[00:21:23] Like, no responding to people because you need to help them find a doctor or a dentist while

[00:21:28] you're driving.

[00:21:28] I mean, like, that.

[00:21:30] Like, the, you know, because a lot of us codependents, like, we derive our self-esteem

[00:21:34] from our usefulness to others.

[00:21:36] Yes.

[00:21:37] You know?

[00:21:37] And so that's, like, a big one.

[00:21:39] So it took me a long time to realize, though, people pleasers, we call it, this is actually

[00:21:44] what kept me going back to codependence, is because we're pathologically thoughtful.

[00:21:51] Someone said, like, and I was like, whoa, that's, like, a, because sometimes I just need,

[00:21:55] like, a, I think this is a lot of the reason that 12-step programs work for me.

[00:21:58] I love a platitude.

[00:22:00] I love a hurt people hurt people.

[00:22:02] I love an oversimplification.

[00:22:03] I love a, you know, you're in a relapse if you're doing the three M's, mothering, micromanaging,

[00:22:09] martyring.

[00:22:10] What's that?

[00:22:10] Rules.

[00:22:11] Yeah.

[00:22:11] But, like, if they rhyme, even better.

[00:22:14] God doesn't mean a guy in the sky.

[00:22:16] It just means good orderly direction.

[00:22:17] Love it.

[00:22:18] Fear.

[00:22:18] What is it?

[00:22:19] Fine.

[00:22:20] When someone says I'm fine, fucked up, insecure, neurotic, emotional, you know, because

[00:22:25] fine is not a real thing.

[00:22:26] Do you know about Biff?

[00:22:27] Biff.

[00:22:28] Give it.

[00:22:28] When someone, when someone's being, oh, shit, hold on.

[00:22:32] If someone's being toxic with you and to respond with brief, oh, shit, something.

[00:22:39] I have to, I'll text it to you later.

[00:22:40] It's about basically.

[00:22:41] With bitchy, immediate, fucking fighting.

[00:22:43] I can finish this.

[00:22:45] I'm sure we can come up with our own.

[00:22:47] Something, something, brief, something friendly.

[00:22:49] Like, thank you, like, if someone gives you some bullshit instead of being, like, getting

[00:22:52] into it.

[00:22:53] Like, I didn't say that.

[00:22:54] Or, like, thank you for your response.

[00:22:55] I'll get back to you shortly.

[00:22:55] Like, brief something friendly and, well, informative, brief.

[00:23:01] I'll send it to you later.

[00:23:02] But Biff is really helpful.

[00:23:03] That's like, it's like, hold, hungry, angry, lonely, tired.

[00:23:05] Yes.

[00:23:05] Like, if you're upset about something, wait, am I hungry, angry, lonely, or tired?

[00:23:08] Because people pleasers, a lot of times we're taking care of everybody but ourselves.

[00:23:11] Yes.

[00:23:11] But what I really heard that resonated is people pleasing is a form of assholery.

[00:23:15] Oh.

[00:23:16] Because what we're doing, actually, is we're implying that you can't do it yourself.

[00:23:22] You need me.

[00:23:24] Stop it.

[00:23:25] The arrogance of going, like, well, you need my help.

[00:23:28] Go on, Whitney.

[00:23:28] Like, you couldn't exist.

[00:23:29] Like, how did, you know, someone said in a meeting once.

[00:23:32] This podcast just started.

[00:23:35] Someone said in a meeting once, and I really resonated with this.

[00:23:38] She goes, you know, I went to the Great Wall of China.

[00:23:41] She, like, went, because we don't take vacations.

[00:23:43] We don't, fun is not something we can really do.

[00:23:45] We need to be productive.

[00:23:46] That's what our fun is.

[00:23:47] When we're having fun, we feel guilty.

[00:23:49] We feel anxious.

[00:23:49] We want to control other people having fun.

[00:23:51] Or, like, are you having enough fun?

[00:23:52] I got the wrapping paper at Christmas.

[00:23:53] I'm picking up the thing.

[00:23:54] Is everyone having fun?

[00:23:55] Like, we're putting it.

[00:23:57] I know we're the same person.

[00:23:58] Yes.

[00:23:59] And so someone has to run the world, okay?

[00:24:02] Someone has to get it all done.

[00:24:04] It's tongue in cheek.

[00:24:05] Totally.

[00:24:05] Of course.

[00:24:06] Because I will say, fuck, you're way better at that than me.

[00:24:09] Yeah, yeah, totally.

[00:24:10] And I'm like, I got no problem with it.

[00:24:12] But then there's other times, and I'm at the point where I'm like, that's your force.

[00:24:16] That's your lane.

[00:24:17] Even if I want to do it, I think you're the better person for it.

[00:24:21] The only time I get kind of is don't do it for our kids.

[00:24:25] Let them go do their thing.

[00:24:27] Don't make their lunches.

[00:24:29] Don't enable them.

[00:24:30] Like, you can enable me all you want.

[00:24:32] Give them the dignity of their own experience so that they can be independent on their own

[00:24:36] so that they can build self-esteem.

[00:24:38] Yes.

[00:24:38] Because if we do it for them, we take away their ability to have self-esteem.

[00:24:41] But all this, I'm a champion of.

[00:24:42] I support.

[00:24:43] And tongue in cheek gives Sarah shit.

[00:24:44] But to your point, yeah.

[00:24:46] It's always like the thing of, like they say, Al-Anon, ACA, codependence were the exploding

[00:24:51] doormats.

[00:24:52] As long as codependence is not leading to resentment, as long as you're not going, I

[00:24:57] just did this for, like when you're helping people, as long as you're not keeping score

[00:25:00] and two weeks later, you go, I did all that and you're not even going to drive.

[00:25:02] And it's like some surprise trap.

[00:25:04] That's rare.

[00:25:05] I don't do it to keep score.

[00:25:07] But then if I feel underappreciated and it's not reciprocated two weeks later, then I'm

[00:25:11] going, wait, like, I did that for you.

[00:25:13] I've done all this.

[00:25:13] And he's like, I didn't ask you to.

[00:25:15] Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:15] Totally reasonable.

[00:25:18] Hey, Calti listeners.

[00:25:19] As you probably know, Nippy and I are working on a manuscript for our first book together.

[00:25:23] And as you probably also know, maintaining control is important to us.

[00:25:28] That's why we've decided to produce our book with the Self-Publishing Agency or TSPA.

[00:25:34] Unlike traditional publishing, where you're often left waiting for months or even years

[00:25:38] to get your story out, the Self-Publishing Agency lets you take control of your timeline.

[00:25:43] You'll have complete creative freedom with insights and guidance from pros in the publishing

[00:25:47] world.

[00:25:47] So if you're like us and you have a story or a message that's burning to be told, we

[00:25:52] highly recommend TSPA as your go-to partner.

[00:25:55] They offer everything you need from expert editing and eye-catching cover design to marketing

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[00:26:02] They make the entire process seamless and inspiring so you can focus on what matters most.

[00:26:07] Telling your story.

[00:26:09] Go to theselfpublishingagency.com.

[00:26:11] That's theselfpublishingagency.com to start your very own publishing journey today.

[00:26:18] Enjoy.

[00:26:27] This podcast wouldn't even exist without our amazing, supportive, generous patrons.

[00:26:32] Come find us on Patreon.

[00:26:34] We are at patreon.com slash a littlebitculti.

[00:26:36] Go there for bonus episodes, live Q&As with past guests, exclusive content, and lots of other

[00:26:42] goodies.

[00:26:42] Subscribe now and help us keep this podcast going.

[00:26:45] That's patreon.com slash a littlebitculti.

[00:26:48] And now, a brief message from our Little Bit Culti sponsors.

[00:26:51] And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting this podcast.

[00:26:57] Well, based on the festive holiday music I just heard at the mall, I'm going to say that it

[00:27:03] is officially holiday season.

[00:27:05] And while I do certainly love this time of year, all the gatherings and travel and things, events, Christmas

[00:27:14] lights, and holiday hoopla can also mean neglecting myself.

[00:27:18] That is why during this time of year, when I'm already doing a lot for other people, therapy

[00:27:23] feels like the greatest gift to myself.

[00:27:25] It means prioritizing my needs, my mental health, my Epsom salt baths, my boundaries, even with

[00:27:31] a busy schedule.

[00:27:32] So if you're thinking of starting therapy this holiday season, give BetterHelp a try.

[00:27:37] BetterHelp is therapy entirely online, making it convenient, flexible, and suited to everyone's

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[00:27:43] All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire to be matched with a licensed therapist.

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[00:27:52] Find comfort this December with BetterHelp.

[00:27:55] Visit BetterHelp.com slash culty today to get 10% off your first month.

[00:27:59] That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash culty.

[00:28:03] Happy holidays.

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[00:30:00] You've heard from our sponsors.

[00:30:02] Now let's get back to a little bit culty, shall we?

[00:30:06] I just watched, I mean, boomers living as long as they're, like this was, no one has a blueprint for this.

[00:30:11] Like our life expectancy used to be like 50 max.

[00:30:15] Yeah.

[00:30:15] Right.

[00:30:15] And they're living to like 100.

[00:30:16] And everyone's like, what are we, what are you going to do?

[00:30:18] Just throw them in a, what are you going to do?

[00:30:20] You know, and there's something really unfortunate about the fact that a lot of us, like, you know, when you turn 40 or you become an adult or you have kids, this is when you first get to have like an adult relationship with your parent.

[00:30:31] You kind of get to meet them for the first time as adults and clean up the mess.

[00:30:34] You know, that was, I think, really tragic about my parents having strokes so young and going into nursing homes.

[00:30:39] My mom had a stroke.

[00:30:39] It's so funny.

[00:30:39] What's that?

[00:30:40] How old were you?

[00:30:41] I was 27.

[00:30:41] Both had strokes?

[00:30:42] Same year.

[00:30:43] Yeah.

[00:30:43] What?

[00:30:44] So my dad was totally butterfly effect in a hospital for years, actually close by here, Savannah.

[00:30:49] And then my mom was in a nursing home with half of her body not working for about 12 years.

[00:30:55] 10 years ago.

[00:30:55] That's crazy.

[00:30:56] Wild.

[00:30:57] And then she just passed about a year ago.

[00:31:00] It is, you know, and I say this as a white woman that can pay my bills.

[00:31:04] So I'm not trying to get pity ever.

[00:31:06] But there is, I think this could help people after I've gone through this.

[00:31:09] Like there is a very specific type of torture that is watching your parent slowly die in front of you.

[00:31:16] It is because they're embarrassed.

[00:31:18] Just your, when you start parenting your parent, it is a very specific form of torture.

[00:31:23] And, you know, I really had to, I didn't, I mean, I went crazy after she died.

[00:31:28] Like I didn't even realize how angry I was that I didn't get to have that 10 years because I was always worrying about the years that should have been the most carefree or celebrating my success.

[00:31:38] I just felt guilty.

[00:31:39] Should I be visiting more?

[00:31:40] Should I be going more?

[00:31:41] And she's just like, and I tried to do home care.

[00:31:43] It is a fortune.

[00:31:44] I tried to do home care, but she's embarrassed and she's in denial as she should be.

[00:31:48] That's the other thing.

[00:31:49] When your parents are incapacitated and they're like, I'm fine, I can walk and you know they can't.

[00:31:52] You're like, thank God you're in denial, but we're a million miles away from each other.

[00:31:56] And now I have to lie to you.

[00:31:57] I have to pretend with you.

[00:31:59] And then she was already overcoming alcoholism and stuff.

[00:32:01] And then she has to be on all these meds.

[00:32:04] Well, she was, she didn't overcome.

[00:32:05] That's my mom.

[00:32:06] I'm literally dealing with this right now.

[00:32:07] Are we, should we 23 and me this?

[00:32:09] But like, you know, and she was, you know, had alcohol issues, part of the show.

[00:32:14] She wouldn't go to the doctor.

[00:32:15] This is another thing with Al-Anons.

[00:32:16] My mom ultimately, yes, alcoholic, but unrecovered Al-Anon.

[00:32:19] We're the ones that never go to doctors.

[00:32:21] We're the ones that don't go to the dentist because we're taking care of everybody else.

[00:32:23] And we think we're being nice, excuse me.

[00:32:25] And then we have strokes at 50 and then everyone has to take care of us.

[00:32:28] Were we nice?

[00:32:29] Kind of not.

[00:32:30] That's the thing about people pleasing is we think it's so nice.

[00:32:33] But the whole thing about program is like, you know, the way to take care of others is

[00:32:36] to take care of yourself.

[00:32:37] Right?

[00:32:38] And because-

[00:32:39] Also, if you're being nice to cope with what's going on with you, you're not really being

[00:32:42] nice for what I find like with my mom, like she was loving me for her and not giving

[00:32:49] me, not sensitive to what was going on with me.

[00:32:52] And I felt it.

[00:32:52] I felt the like, she related to me in a way that was like, that's not close to like who

[00:32:59] I am.

[00:32:59] She treated, she doted on me in a way that didn't feel like love.

[00:33:03] And I was, I had a wall up.

[00:33:04] I was 15, 16.

[00:33:06] This is so big.

[00:33:07] And it blew my-

[00:33:09] Rude, but not trying to be.

[00:33:11] It, I've talked about this with my guy because, you know, and just in addiction in general,

[00:33:17] because all these are some kind of addiction.

[00:33:18] Thankfully, ours aren't-

[00:33:19] Our parents are the program ones, right?

[00:33:21] It's alcohol, whatever.

[00:33:22] Maybe it's social media.

[00:33:23] Maybe it's helping people.

[00:33:25] Maybe it's money.

[00:33:26] Who cares?

[00:33:26] But it blew my mind when a therapist that specializes in childhood trauma, family dynamics, and codependence

[00:33:33] said, like, the parent-child relationship is a one-way relationship.

[00:33:38] One-way caretaking.

[00:33:40] Like, you are not ever-

[00:33:41] Yes.

[00:33:42] It is inappropriate to take care of the emotional needs of your parent.

[00:33:45] That's emotional incest.

[00:33:46] And I, my mom was incredibly histrionic.

[00:33:49] Maybe borderline.

[00:33:50] I'm not a doctor.

[00:33:52] Went through horrible things.

[00:33:53] That generation of women, we're the first generation that has any shot in hell of breaking

[00:33:58] these cycles.

[00:33:58] We have to have so much compassion for the people that came before us because they're,

[00:34:01] I mean, they were like smoking cigarettes at school.

[00:34:03] I mean, it was like madness, right?

[00:34:05] They had no tools.

[00:34:06] But yeah, the emotional caretaking, my mom would cry a lot when I was younger and I would

[00:34:12] upset her.

[00:34:12] You know what I mean?

[00:34:13] If I asked for something, it would overwhelm her and stress.

[00:34:15] I was, you know, and I got a sense-

[00:34:17] You have siblings?

[00:34:18] Uh-huh.

[00:34:19] You're one of them.

[00:34:19] That's a whole, yeah.

[00:34:20] Okay.

[00:34:20] Other thing.

[00:34:21] Yeah, older.

[00:34:22] And then I have a bunch I've never met.

[00:34:23] We're not doing 23andMe.

[00:34:25] Okay.

[00:34:25] And I didn't realize it was weird to not emotionally caretake my parents.

[00:34:30] I was taking care of my dad's ego.

[00:34:32] I was taking care of my mom's feelings.

[00:34:33] Like, I had to be perfect so that no one would get upset.

[00:34:36] Like, I learned at a very early age, like, you need to be perfect.

[00:34:39] You're taking up too much space.

[00:34:40] And these people just like, you know, the disease of Alamonism where everyone's trying

[00:34:43] to caretake everybody in ways that no one.

[00:34:45] My mom would be up till three in the morning wrapping presents, wrapping presents.

[00:34:48] For a bunch of people she didn't even like.

[00:34:50] She didn't even like.

[00:34:51] You know what I mean?

[00:34:51] And it was like, she's always in a frenzy about something and trying to make people

[00:34:55] like her.

[00:34:56] And something that blew my mind, and now that you guys are like, you know, famous now

[00:34:59] and you've, you know, have internet comments and you're back, I find so much freedom

[00:35:04] and the idea that like everyone has made up their mind about us.

[00:35:07] We're not changing anybody's mind.

[00:35:08] Because when I'm sort of like, I want this person to like me, I'm like, they've already

[00:35:11] made up their mind about me before I've walked in the room based on their childhood circumstances,

[00:35:15] their ancestral trauma.

[00:35:16] We're all kind of a confluence of who we actually are or what we're projecting.

[00:35:19] I mean, assuming we're actually being authentic when we move through the world.

[00:35:22] And then the other person's projection, like what you think about me, like, has like

[00:35:26] 2% of who I actually am.

[00:35:28] It's so freeing.

[00:35:29] I don't know who that person is that you like or don't like, so I can't, you know, there's

[00:35:33] something kind of like amazing about that, I feel like.

[00:35:35] Well, it's also, you're relating to an avatar.

[00:35:37] And so I had this awareness, like someone sent me something that someone had said about Sarah

[00:35:43] and I on Reddit, and I didn't even know what Reddit was at the time.

[00:35:46] Well, if people only go to Reddit to be negative.

[00:35:48] To be negative.

[00:35:49] It's the bathroom wall of social media.

[00:35:51] Love that.

[00:35:52] Love it.

[00:35:53] I went there and I was reading it and I was kind of feeling the burn, you know, that face,

[00:35:57] your face gets hot and your solar plexus start to go.

[00:36:00] And then I was like, that's not even close.

[00:36:03] And I was like, this is an avatar.

[00:36:05] This is an avatar that has my likeness that's taking a beating right now.

[00:36:08] Yeah.

[00:36:08] It has nothing to do with me.

[00:36:10] But it's also like, you know what you're doing when you're being negative about someone

[00:36:12] before you, I mean, you do it now.

[00:36:14] It's like, I just need to make myself feel better.

[00:36:16] So it's like, am I the bully if someone's bullying me and I'm going, why are you bullying

[00:36:20] me?

[00:36:20] It's like, you're just bullying me so you feel better about yourself.

[00:36:24] This is one big circle jerk.

[00:36:25] Yeah.

[00:36:25] Do you post and ghost or do you like interact?

[00:36:28] I kind of like, I go back and forth.

[00:36:30] Yeah.

[00:36:30] Yeah.

[00:36:31] I go back and forth.

[00:36:31] But here's something I did want to say about the codependency thing.

[00:36:34] And we'll come back to that.

[00:36:35] It's just my Asperger's is so wild.

[00:36:37] You have a bookmark to close.

[00:36:38] Bookmark.

[00:36:39] He always says, close the windows.

[00:36:41] He's like, you have too many windows open.

[00:36:42] We need to close some of the windows.

[00:36:43] Yep.

[00:36:44] Which is that the theme I think that could be interesting for this episode is like control.

[00:36:49] And a big thing with Al-Anon ACA codependence is we never had control and we did

[00:36:54] whatever we had to do to feel we were in control.

[00:36:56] Whether mine manifested in eating disorders, it manifested in completely isolating away

[00:37:00] from humans because I couldn't control humans.

[00:37:01] I didn't understand their value system.

[00:37:03] They were erratic.

[00:37:04] They were hypocrites.

[00:37:04] They lied.

[00:37:05] I grew up around a lot of like denial bullshit.

[00:37:07] Like, how are you?

[00:37:08] Fine.

[00:37:09] I'm good.

[00:37:09] I'm good.

[00:37:10] How are you?

[00:37:10] A lot of like, I feel like you guys hate each other.

[00:37:12] I'm like, no, no, we're good.

[00:37:14] Can you pass this?

[00:37:15] Toxic positivity.

[00:37:16] Totally.

[00:37:16] But it's like, I felt it.

[00:37:18] And then I was like, when you're a child, you don't know your parents have flaws.

[00:37:21] It doesn't occur to you.

[00:37:22] You just assume you're crazy.

[00:37:23] So I was like, I guess I'm just crazy because I couldn't like read social cues.

[00:37:27] I was diagnosed with autism, but I was like, I beat it.

[00:37:30] But I was like, am I the weirdo that can't communicate with you guys?

[00:37:34] Because I feel like you're just, this is dishonest communication, which is why I was

[00:37:37] like, I'm going to go live in a barn, dude.

[00:37:38] But then I started having little collections of things like cosmetics.

[00:37:42] I would have little things, would clean my room obsessively.

[00:37:44] Then it became like eating disorders.

[00:37:46] Then it became a certain like sports.

[00:37:47] Like I could not leave.

[00:37:48] Then it became like an OCD thing.

[00:37:50] Like I had to count a certain amount.

[00:37:51] And it was really all about control.

[00:37:53] And then you become an adult and you're like, okay, control, control, control.

[00:37:57] And then a big thing about program is like, you know, the main prayer is God grant me the

[00:38:02] serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can't

[00:38:06] and the wisdom to know the difference.

[00:38:07] And like, I had to write down things I couldn't control.

[00:38:10] Like it like blew my mind that I couldn't change someone's like childhood with my love.

[00:38:15] It like blew my mind that I couldn't get someone sober.

[00:38:18] It was like, no, no, no, just give me, I got, like, give me a minute.

[00:38:21] Like I initially went into program to learn how to get someone sober.

[00:38:24] I was like, all right, what are the tricks?

[00:38:25] I actually think that Keith stole a lot from AA because that was a big part of it.

[00:38:28] So it's Scientology.

[00:38:29] Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:30] It's all the same stuff, right?

[00:38:31] Like you, what would it mean if you can't control someone else's emotions?

[00:38:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:35] Detach with love and, you know, whatever.

[00:38:37] Clean up your side of the street.

[00:38:38] Focus on you.

[00:38:39] I mean, what I love about program is like, I love the idea that everything's my fault

[00:38:42] because at least then I can change it.

[00:38:44] And it's blameless inventory.

[00:38:45] So it's like, for me, it's like more like, oh, I should have had a lower bar of that person's

[00:38:49] behavior.

[00:38:49] Oh, I should have removed myself sooner.

[00:38:51] Not like that person yelled at me and that person threw something at me.

[00:38:54] It was like, well, I knew that person.

[00:38:55] Yeah.

[00:38:55] You don't project maniacal intent.

[00:38:57] Well, you don't blame because blame is an addiction that nobody gets.

[00:39:01] It sounds like you're basically saying, like knowing what I know now, what would I do differently

[00:39:05] versus, which is a fine line between it's my fault.

[00:39:07] And I can't control this person.

[00:39:09] I can control my actions.

[00:39:10] Yeah.

[00:39:10] My actions.

[00:39:11] I can remove myself.

[00:39:12] I can alter my expectations.

[00:39:13] And my proximity to this person.

[00:39:14] Yeah.

[00:39:14] That you can control.

[00:39:15] Because it's a lot of like, I just have to remove myself, but I am addicted to doing

[00:39:19] the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

[00:39:21] Yeah.

[00:39:22] That's a good awareness that a lot of those programs will give you.

[00:39:24] That's on you, right?

[00:39:25] Because growing up, growing up in erratic, dysfunctional, in order for alcoholism to

[00:39:29] be present, alcohol doesn't have to be present.

[00:39:31] That's the other thing, just chaos.

[00:39:31] You're like, okay, I'm going to go get my dad's attention.

[00:39:34] And you go up and you try something and it doesn't work.

[00:39:36] And I remember going up to my dad and trying to get his attention.

[00:39:40] I couldn't get it.

[00:39:41] And then I remember going, that didn't go well.

[00:39:44] Like regroup.

[00:39:45] And like I went out again.

[00:39:46] He was watching SNL and I like said a joke that I saw.

[00:39:49] And then he would watch Rodney Dangerfield and I would say the Rodney Dangerfield joke.

[00:39:52] I was like, I got to whatever.

[00:39:54] Is this the beginning of your comedy?

[00:39:55] Kind of.

[00:39:56] Making alcoholics laugh is like, it was my childhood.

[00:39:58] It was my adulthood.

[00:39:59] Here we are.

[00:40:00] So yeah.

[00:40:01] So I think that a sense in good cults, successful cults give you a sense of control.

[00:40:06] Like that idea of you're going to go here and this is what to do.

[00:40:09] This is what not to do.

[00:40:11] And a path, whether it's Scientology, the bridge to freedom.

[00:40:13] Or else we have the straight path, especially as an actor where you're like floundering.

[00:40:17] There's no, although you did say at the beginning that there was like some sort of semblance

[00:40:20] of a path in Hollywood.

[00:40:22] But in general, you can't, you don't know if there's no rules for sure.

[00:40:25] It was a way for them to just bank on someone that might be making a lot of money down the

[00:40:29] line or something.

[00:40:30] They would go after those people.

[00:40:31] They would go after the really, really vulnerable or the really, really successful.

[00:40:34] You know, is the trend that I noticed.

[00:40:36] But I think that this is like, you know, what you guys are doing is like more important than

[00:40:40] ever because I think people are feeling like they have less control more and more than ever.

[00:40:46] I mean, look, I'm sure the Civil War was probably, you know, but you didn't know what

[00:40:49] you didn't know.

[00:40:50] Also, there's not structures in place.

[00:40:52] I mean, we're still, the Civil War, we're still expanding and trying to figure out what's

[00:40:55] what.

[00:40:55] Like we don't have structures.

[00:40:56] So in the structures that we grew up with traditionally that felt safe are now being, are now vulnerable

[00:41:03] in a lot of ways.

[00:41:04] So that's where I think a lot of, a lot of the stuff, I mean, when we were going through

[00:41:08] our shit, I was like, oh fuck, everyone's going to think we're fucking crazy.

[00:41:12] I went through that shame spiral of like, I can't believe I fucking-

[00:41:14] Dude, I watched the documentary.

[00:41:15] I was in on the call.

[00:41:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:41:17] I was sold.

[00:41:18] I get it.

[00:41:18] But to find out it wasn't-

[00:41:19] I was just like, I'm not going to play volleyball at two in the morning.

[00:41:22] I never did.

[00:41:23] I did it once or twice.

[00:41:24] You don't know.

[00:41:24] You might get obsessed with that.

[00:41:25] I was too attached to my sleep.

[00:41:27] Once I said I had control, ironically, I was always getting shit for my control issues.

[00:41:30] Did you know that?

[00:41:31] Whoa.

[00:41:31] Yeah.

[00:41:32] You're right.

[00:41:33] It was-

[00:41:34] I told someone to gaslight them into saying they're too controlling.

[00:41:36] Yeah, that's why I wouldn't get promoted.

[00:41:37] I had to work through my control issues and what they called like-me disease, which is

[00:41:41] NXIVM's term for people-pleasing or accommodating.

[00:41:43] It's a good racket.

[00:41:44] It's good.

[00:41:45] It's a good racket.

[00:41:46] I mean, here's the thing about Scientology.

[00:41:47] It makes sense until they're like, and your kid's not allowed to be on a medication for seizures.

[00:41:54] But also in LA, there's all those psychiatry museums everywhere.

[00:41:58] I'm also the first to say like, yeah, a lot of psychiatry is really gross and bad.

[00:42:01] And a lot of therapists are not good.

[00:42:03] You know what I mean?

[00:42:03] And a lot of like talking about your problems over and over again is not good for you.

[00:42:07] It manifests your problems more.

[00:42:08] Talk therapy, I had to stop for a while because all I was doing was strengthening the neural

[00:42:12] pathways of how hard I've had it and how bad this was.

[00:42:15] And it like made me obsessed.

[00:42:16] Like I remember I went to this new therapist who was like, you can't talk about this person

[00:42:20] anymore.

[00:42:21] It's over.

[00:42:21] And I had to wear a little rubber band.

[00:42:23] I wasn't, I couldn't, I did no complaining for 28 days.

[00:42:25] If I did, I had to start back at the beginning.

[00:42:27] No talking about this X for 28.

[00:42:29] Cause it was just, it was re-embedding my obsession.

[00:42:32] And so I'm the first to say some of, you know, and then psychiatry, we are over medicated for

[00:42:36] sure.

[00:42:36] But I know a lot of people that lost their lives because they stopped taking their antidepressants.

[00:42:39] I don't know.

[00:42:39] Again, I'm not a doctor, but I, it's very appealing to someone that does want to question

[00:42:43] everything.

[00:42:44] You know what I mean?

[00:42:45] And in, you know, 12 step programs, we have step, you know, four and five, which is you

[00:42:48] write out sort of like all the mistakes that you've made and you, no, it's five and six.

[00:42:52] And you admit it to someone else.

[00:42:54] You admit your wrongdoings to someone else.

[00:42:55] We don't record it.

[00:42:58] We burn it out, but it's just a shame release.

[00:43:00] You know what I mean?

[00:43:01] So like the auditing thing, it's like, gotta point to it.

[00:43:04] Like I do.

[00:43:05] But then you're a criminal now because you're recording them and whatever so that you can

[00:43:09] blackmail them later.

[00:43:09] Cause the idea of going like, I cheated on this person and the person's just like, all right,

[00:43:13] next.

[00:43:14] You don't think I'm disgusting.

[00:43:15] You don't hate me.

[00:43:16] And then your sponsor's like, yeah, I've done that.

[00:43:17] We've all done that.

[00:43:18] It's like when you start going like, oh, I'm not terminally unique.

[00:43:20] I'm not broken.

[00:43:21] Like everybody does this, you know, and releasing the shame because shame is what drives the

[00:43:24] maladaptive behavior.

[00:43:25] So it's like everything Scientology does that I know of besides like whatever the aliens

[00:43:29] and shit, you're like, yeah, that has a point.

[00:43:31] That has a point.

[00:43:31] How did you manage to make it criminal though?

[00:43:34] Wait, so rape's not illegal and like what?

[00:43:37] But I never heard about that stuff until like Twitter.

[00:43:40] People weren't like colluding.

[00:43:42] Like Scientology, when I moved to LA didn't really have a bad rap.

[00:43:45] Yeah.

[00:43:45] When did it start getting a bad rap?

[00:43:47] I guess it was maybe Leo Remini.

[00:43:48] Hmm.

[00:43:49] But I don't.

[00:43:50] Also Tom Cruise jumping on the couch didn't really help.

[00:43:52] You know what?

[00:43:52] That was probably the turning point.

[00:43:55] We were still in NXIVM when that happened and Going Clear came out and I hadn't watched

[00:43:58] it yet.

[00:43:59] But I remember thinking, well, if they think Scientology is a cult, I mean, like he's happy.

[00:44:02] Who am I to say?

[00:44:03] Yeah.

[00:44:03] Like what?

[00:44:04] Because that was sort of my defense of NXIVM.

[00:44:06] Like who are they to say?

[00:44:07] Like we're happy.

[00:44:07] I'm living my best life.

[00:44:08] Fuck off.

[00:44:09] And I still, if I'm going to be honest, I still kind of, and tell me I'm wrong.

[00:44:12] This is probably not the podcast to do it on, but going like, well, because I did

[00:44:15] watch the TikTok cult one.

[00:44:18] Oh, it was the dance cult.

[00:44:18] It broke my heart because they're kids, you know?

[00:44:21] But like, if I'm like, if you're 40 and you want to go to Scientology, you know what?

[00:44:27] As long as you're not bringing children into it, I'm sort of like, what would be the alternative?

[00:44:31] Would you be drinking?

[00:44:32] It's case by case.

[00:44:33] It's a good way.

[00:44:34] A lot of people can go there and get sober.

[00:44:36] They can't get sober anywhere else.

[00:44:36] Listen, all these things have good parts of it.

[00:44:38] Even the TikTok cult.

[00:44:40] They learn how to dance and have a place to stay.

[00:44:42] When it's said and done, you're going to be rubbing elbows with people who are abusing

[00:44:44] their power.

[00:44:45] So ultimately that's going to be presented to you and you're going to have

[00:44:48] some sort of struggle to resolve about like, this is going on.

[00:44:52] Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:52] But that's part of culture.

[00:44:53] The first couple steps sound great.

[00:44:56] Yeah.

[00:44:56] Right?

[00:44:57] That's kind of the idea.

[00:44:58] That's the buy-in.

[00:44:58] There's always a hook.

[00:44:59] There's always the buffet.

[00:45:00] This is my thing with every religion is I guess ultimately my cult is saving money.

[00:45:06] I don't understand the difference between saying, I feel better.

[00:45:09] I have a community, which we're wired for this.

[00:45:12] I mean, the cults really capitalize on the fact that we're all so disconnected.

[00:45:15] We're living in apartments.

[00:45:15] We're not making eye contact and getting that dopamine.

[00:45:18] We don't have relationships.

[00:45:19] We're so isolated.

[00:45:19] We're all so low on serotonin.

[00:45:21] And then writing that check, that's where I'd be like, I'm good.

[00:45:27] It's a weird, that's where I'm like, I'm giving a percentage of my money.

[00:45:31] I guess they also, if they get you when you don't have any money, you're like, well, 30%

[00:45:35] of zero is zero.

[00:45:36] If I'm a millionaire because of this, I'm giving you 30% of a million dollars.

[00:45:40] That means I have $700,000.

[00:45:43] I guess it's easy to just keep rationalizing.

[00:45:46] What you said when you were talking about going into science and technology in the castle,

[00:45:49] I'd imagine that's what it's like for the young TikTok dancers.

[00:45:52] It's just them, you now, going into LA and not having a community.

[00:45:56] They have a place to stay.

[00:45:57] They have everything covered.

[00:46:00] And all they got to do is give 10% and then the 20%.

[00:46:02] And dad's telling me I can't do this.

[00:46:03] It's kind of that simple sometimes.

[00:46:05] It's the individuation.

[00:46:06] You know, something that my dad made a lot of mistakes, all of our parents did, I'm sure.

[00:46:11] You know, he was sick and suffering.

[00:46:13] And he said something to me once that I think is a really big part of my, I've never felt

[00:46:18] like I needed to fit in.

[00:46:19] I've never wanted to fit in.

[00:46:21] I've never had a lot of respect for like what everyone else likes.

[00:46:25] My dad was always very like, you know, he was very intense about grades.

[00:46:30] Very intense.

[00:46:31] Not a great parent necessarily.

[00:46:32] Didn't have a lot of love for me.

[00:46:34] I didn't feel a lot of love.

[00:46:35] But I think on some level it was very awkward to him that I was a girl.

[00:46:39] Like he was awkward, you know, with me.

[00:46:42] And it was just sports and studies.

[00:46:44] And I think on a lot of levels he thought, and he said to me once what he said.

[00:46:48] He's like, you're going to have to work twice as hard to get half as far.

[00:46:52] He said it.

[00:46:52] He would always go, life is not fair.

[00:46:54] People are not going to take you seriously.

[00:46:55] You're going to have to be twice as good as everyone.

[00:46:56] And he would always say that.

[00:46:57] He would always say that.

[00:46:58] He would wake me up.

[00:46:59] I mean, this might be child abuse.

[00:47:00] He would like wake me up and quiz me on spelling words.

[00:47:02] And be like, blah, blah, blah.

[00:47:03] And I was like, what are you?

[00:47:04] And he's like, you don't know when the test is.

[00:47:05] You might be hungry during the test.

[00:47:06] You might get a distraction.

[00:47:08] Someone's going to, you know what I mean?

[00:47:09] Like he wanted me to be able to do everything forwards and backwards.

[00:47:12] And as I became a teenager, you start becoming a girl.

[00:47:15] You start dating.

[00:47:16] He was just like, we didn't have much of a connection or relationship.

[00:47:20] We were kind of allowed to smoke in the house.

[00:47:23] His thing was just do it here.

[00:47:24] Whatever you're doing, just do it here.

[00:47:27] Which kind of took the taboo off it.

[00:47:29] I don't think that was his intention.

[00:47:30] But you're like, well, I don't really want to smoke weed if you're going to let me smoke weed.

[00:47:33] Like that takes all the fun out of it.

[00:47:34] You know what I mean?

[00:47:35] So it's like he would kind of, he'd be like, if you're going to buy beer, let me just get it.

[00:47:38] Because if you do it, you're going to get it right.

[00:47:40] And so he would kind of have beer sometimes.

[00:47:43] And I remember he said one time, and I'm sure everyone, you know, maybe all people have a version of this with their parents.

[00:47:48] He said, look, I know you're going to drink.

[00:47:49] I know you're going to smoke weed.

[00:47:50] Like I know all this is going to happen.

[00:47:53] And if you just call me and don't get in the, if you get in the car with someone who's drinking or on drugs, you'll never leave the house again.

[00:48:01] But if you just call me, I will come pick you up.

[00:48:04] No questions asked.

[00:48:07] And there was always that like, hey, this person's been drinking.

[00:48:10] He's like four hours later, he would show up as like some hooker.

[00:48:13] But the point is like there wasn't a like, when I got out, I wasn't like, I need to be wild.

[00:48:19] Like he took the taboo, maybe just because he didn't want to have to discipline me off of it.

[00:48:23] So it's like kind of like in Europe, they don't have the same drinking problems because they kind of start them a little bit younger.

[00:48:28] There wasn't this, and I was reading in this parenting book, Hunt, Gather, Parent, that when your kid breaks something or does something bad and they tell you about it, you don't freak out.

[00:48:37] The first thing you say is thank you for telling me.

[00:48:39] That's so, so that they never learn to keep secrets from you.

[00:48:42] Yes.

[00:48:43] So important.

[00:48:43] You know what I mean?

[00:48:44] It's such a small thing that I never would have sort of thought of.

[00:48:47] So by the time your kid is out in the world, they're not susceptible to something that's giving them freedom and individuality because they always kind of felt that.

[00:48:53] And speaking of secret things, this is a pro tip, unsolicited advice for you for five to six years from now.

[00:48:58] I will listen to this podcast constantly.

[00:49:00] Please start unsoliciting advice.

[00:49:02] Because it's so important when they start getting coached and you're dropping them off to like learn T-ball or whatever.

[00:49:07] And it's hard to imagine.

[00:49:08] But like imagine a coach is like, you know, Henry's got a special skill.

[00:49:12] I'm going to like privately coach him.

[00:49:14] And next thing you know, there's like all these stages for grooming of small children.

[00:49:18] Yeah.

[00:49:18] You know I have a gun in my car.

[00:49:20] I mean, I'm not because I was groomed by a theater teacher, me and like a friend of mine.

[00:49:25] And it was just so like all that shit is so wild.

[00:49:28] You have so many culty stories.

[00:49:29] When we first met, when you DM'd me and the vow, do you remember what was happening?

[00:49:33] I'm in the NXIVM documentary cult.

[00:49:35] You guys are, you're my cult leaders.

[00:49:37] That's right.

[00:49:38] It gave me meaning.

[00:49:39] That's right.

[00:49:40] I was like.

[00:49:40] Do you remember when you were like, you called and I just taken an Ativan?

[00:49:44] Do you remember that?

[00:49:45] And I was like, I'm so happy to meet you.

[00:49:47] I was like, you're my leader.

[00:49:48] Like, let's do this.

[00:49:50] Like, what are we, are we moving into a house together?

[00:49:52] One of my biggest regrets was that it was COVID and we had kids and I couldn't figure out how to come down and be on your podcast.

[00:49:57] We got to FaceTime.

[00:49:58] We FaceTime.

[00:49:59] We FaceTime with Amanda Knox.

[00:50:00] By the way, I was just on hers and she was on ours.

[00:50:03] She's so great.

[00:50:03] And I just love her so much.

[00:50:04] She's amazing.

[00:50:04] Thank you so much for that introduction.

[00:50:06] I've been meaning to tell you, like, I actually learned a lot from reading her book.

[00:50:10] I could cry actually because it just, I didn't think, you know, her story is so different than mine.

[00:50:14] But we have a lot of weird kind of parallels and especially with, like, the ages that we were when we got into these things.

[00:50:20] And then her, like, because she was like, I'm an adult.

[00:50:22] I'm doing my own thing.

[00:50:23] And I don't need a lawyer.

[00:50:25] And then she got in so much fucking trouble, you know?

[00:50:27] And then that's, you know, her part that she sort of had to come to terms with, like, her own stubbornness, right?

[00:50:32] A lot of people telling me that when I was that age.

[00:50:34] I'm like, I know what I'm looking at.

[00:50:35] You think I can't discern what's good and bad?

[00:50:38] Fuck all y'all.

[00:50:38] Can I ask you something?

[00:50:40] One question I have I don't want to forget is about if you're seeing an increase of kind of, like, culty things coming up, whether it's, like, crystals or makeup or soul cycle.

[00:50:50] I mean, the way you see people behave at, like, I don't know if it's soul cycle.

[00:50:54] It's like, you've got to get a hammer.

[00:50:55] Maybe that's more of an addiction than a cult, per se.

[00:50:58] That's all consuming, those things.

[00:50:59] This criteria.

[00:51:00] Gives you an identity kind of thing.

[00:51:03] Like, if you're seeing that more and more.

[00:51:05] My whole kick right now is I recognize I see these things through a filter.

[00:51:08] And it's like people around me are like, Sarah, not everything's a cult.

[00:51:11] I'm like, fine.

[00:51:11] It's not a cult.

[00:51:12] It's just toxic.

[00:51:12] They're a little bit culty.

[00:51:13] It's a little bit culty.

[00:51:14] That's amazing that title was our podcast before we even realized how many things were a little bit culty.

[00:51:20] And now my thing is now I don't even want to use the word cult because it's so overused.

[00:51:24] Everyone's coming out of a cult and it's just, like, kind of become too trendy.

[00:51:27] Like, let's just say, like, is this thing healthy?

[00:51:30] Like, AA.

[00:51:30] You know, if it's healthy for you, that's great.

[00:51:33] If you're feeling coerced.

[00:51:34] If you're feeling like it's, you know, there's too much fear mongering in your group, it's not healthy for you.

[00:51:38] And that's something that, like, only you can know.

[00:51:41] And that also goes back to your own autonomy, which these groups may have taken away.

[00:51:44] And that's what you have to figure out.

[00:51:46] But, yeah.

[00:51:47] And we see it.

[00:51:47] Unfortunately, we do see it everywhere.

[00:51:48] I think the term that we like better is abuse as a power rather than a little bit culty.

[00:51:52] Because the precursor is always someone who's going to be abusing their power and they're always going to use some sort of coercive tactic to make you comply, maybe against your will, but you can leave and come back.

[00:52:03] You don't have, like, your all-in mentality.

[00:52:05] But, like, if there's consequences for you leaving, there's little red flags and coercive.

[00:52:10] What do you think of sororities and fraternities?

[00:52:12] We did do an episode on it, but there's – it kind of depends on the group, but generally they're problematic.

[00:52:18] I'll tell you, I didn't join one in college because I didn't want to take shit from anyone and I didn't want to have to do what someone wanted me to do at 3 in the morning because I was rushing.

[00:52:26] I just fucked that.

[00:52:27] Yeah.

[00:52:27] I'm not coming to college so you can – first of all, I didn't want to hang out with the same set of guys that I was playing football with.

[00:52:32] Totally.

[00:52:32] And I was the fraternity.

[00:52:33] I was like, I'm not going to go to an Ivy League school and hang out with the jocks.

[00:52:36] Yeah.

[00:52:37] That was just like – and I liked them, but I also wasn't going to take shit from them.

[00:52:41] Yeah, yeah.

[00:52:42] Like, I just wasn't interested in that.

[00:52:44] It's also something that – and you have a couple employees, you have kids now.

[00:52:48] I guess for me it's like I don't have the gene to want to be in charge.

[00:52:54] I love performing.

[00:52:55] I love what I do.

[00:52:56] But, like, I've been a boss of people and I hated it.

[00:52:59] Like, I had so many employees and I hated having – it was like, I just want to be everyone's equal and I want everyone to like, you know.

[00:53:05] So people pleasers, like, also punk rock as shit.

[00:53:08] There's a danger to that.

[00:53:09] Tell.

[00:53:09] Okay.

[00:53:10] So what I hear is you have a power, right?

[00:53:16] And this is one of the things that I read recently.

[00:53:18] If you have a power and you're not using it appropriately, someone else will.

[00:53:21] Oh.

[00:53:22] Yeah.

[00:53:23] And that's just true.

[00:53:24] Someone's going to see, oh, Whitney's got this.

[00:53:25] I'm going to leverage this somehow.

[00:53:27] Little fiefdoms start popping up.

[00:53:30] Yeah.

[00:53:30] The way that they have access to that, they somehow leverage your authority or your power, which is earned based on your own merit, and they're using it and passing it off as theirs.

[00:53:41] So you can own it, see that it's there, and use it appropriately and protect it.

[00:53:47] But if you're not aware of it and you're not stepping into it in some shape or form, someone else will.

[00:53:51] Is there a consistent, like, this is an ignorant question, but, like, pattern in the people that have been really successful cult leaders of, like, sociopathy or psychopathy or, like, childhood thing?

[00:54:02] Like, didn't have a brother or mother or whatever?

[00:54:03] Really bad attachment style is what I've noticed as a non-therapist.

[00:54:07] It's like either mom or dad, like, really unhealthy.

[00:54:09] Well, with the guys, it's normally smothered.

[00:54:11] I also wouldn't want someone to need me.

[00:54:12] I feel very smothered when I can't, you know what I mean?

[00:54:16] When someone's like, what do I do now?

[00:54:17] I'm just like, now you go do your, like, power seems exhausting.

[00:54:21] And, like, there's got to be some bottomless pit of need for attention.

[00:54:26] Yeah, the wounded narcissist, like Keith was wounded.

[00:54:28] Those people want power.

[00:54:30] And you can't get love on your own, so you have to, like, con people into it and trap them and trick them.

[00:54:34] You can tell just by looking at him and his knee pads.

[00:54:36] He can't get love on his own.

[00:54:38] Can I just, may I?

[00:54:39] Yeah, go, please, go.

[00:54:40] Did the math work?

[00:54:42] I mean, did he invent a new math?

[00:54:44] I don't think so.

[00:54:45] But, like, I love, that is, I wouldn't know.

[00:54:47] My math is not good enough.

[00:54:49] I couldn't look at that and tell you.

[00:54:50] I, I should.

[00:54:51] I have a, I have a confession.

[00:54:53] He was doing some equations at the end of the training.

[00:54:57] But wait, why?

[00:54:58] No.

[00:54:59] Someone was asking.

[00:55:00] Someone was asking him.

[00:55:00] He's looking through the piano.

[00:55:01] He'd be like, ooh, it's so good.

[00:55:02] Someone was asking him a calculus thing.

[00:55:04] And I looked at it, and I knew it was wrong.

[00:55:08] Really?

[00:55:09] Yes.

[00:55:09] I wouldn't, my math is not good.

[00:55:10] I wouldn't have known.

[00:55:11] Well, so the reason I say that is if I knew it was wrong, I don't have a huge complexity

[00:55:17] in mathematics.

[00:55:18] I went, I flirted with calculus at 18 and was like, fuck that.

[00:55:21] But I knew what he was saying was wrong.

[00:55:24] He was talking about thermodynamics and how if water leaves a tank.

[00:55:27] And I was like, that doesn't really make sense.

[00:55:29] And I was just kind of, I left it alone.

[00:55:31] Well, I wasn't confident enough to call him on it.

[00:55:34] And I was like, kind of afraid to be contrary to him in front of people.

[00:55:44] For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page turning memoir.

[00:55:48] It's called Scarred, the true story of how I escaped NXIVM, the cult that bound my life.

[00:55:52] It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores.

[00:55:55] Highly recommend, of course, because she's my wife.

[00:55:58] And now a brief message from our Little Bit Culty sponsors.

[00:56:01] Remember, when you support our sponsors, you support our podcast.

[00:56:06] Well, based on the festive holiday music I just heard at the mall,

[00:56:10] I'm going to say that it is officially holiday season.

[00:56:14] And while I do certainly love this time of year,

[00:56:17] all the gatherings and travel and things, events, Christmas lights, and holiday hoopla

[00:56:25] can also mean neglecting myself.

[00:56:27] That is why during this time of year, when I'm already doing a lot for other people,

[00:56:31] therapy feels like the greatest gift to myself.

[00:56:34] It means prioritizing my needs, my mental health, my Epsom salt baths, my boundaries,

[00:56:40] even with a busy schedule.

[00:56:41] So if you're thinking of starting therapy this holiday season, give BetterHelp a try.

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[00:57:01] Find comfort this December with BetterHelp.

[00:57:04] Visit BetterHelp.com slash Culty today to get 10% off your first month.

[00:57:08] That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Culty.

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[00:59:09] Break time's over, people.

[00:59:11] Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:59:13] It's a good one.

[00:59:15] I just am fascinated by kind of like the biological basis for cults.

[00:59:19] Like it used to just be like tribes, you know?

[00:59:22] Like I'm obsessed with our willingness to be conned because a lot of times someone's like,

[00:59:25] this thing is fake and da-da-da-da.

[00:59:26] And it's like, yeah, but a lot of people want.

[00:59:28] I think what you're talking about, like you take a thousand people, put them on an island.

[00:59:33] It's not long before they're going to have some sort of hierarchy.

[00:59:36] Yep.

[00:59:36] And it won't be long before someone's going to be like, oh, I can abuse my power in this island.

[00:59:40] And someone's going to be a slave.

[00:59:41] They'll be slaves.

[00:59:41] It's like Stanford Prison Experiment on a 101.

[00:59:44] Totally.

[00:59:44] Do you know that Keith showed us the video about Stanford Prison Experiment?

[00:59:47] Because that's his way of going, this is bad.

[00:59:49] Yeah.

[00:59:49] And so you're like, well, he would never do that.

[00:59:50] Hiding on plain sight.

[00:59:51] Yeah.

[00:59:51] Always hiding on plain sight.

[00:59:52] Do you want to do the cult of Hollywood?

[00:59:53] Wait.

[00:59:53] I mean, we had a whole thing about the cult of Hollywood.

[00:59:56] But the main thing that I wanted.

[00:59:57] Cult of Hollywood.

[00:59:58] Oh, interesting.

[00:59:58] Just like, I mean, maybe we have to do a part two.

[01:00:00] But there's so many things about Hollywood, obviously, that are problematic.

[01:00:03] Sure.

[01:00:04] And you talk a lot about that in your pod and your comedy.

[01:00:06] The impression I have through going through the rabbit holes is if you want to be in Hollywood,

[01:00:13] there's some sort of rite of passage for certain people.

[01:00:16] I don't know.

[01:00:17] Or they offer you something.

[01:00:19] You definitely can't be a squeaky wheel.

[01:00:20] And there's a buy-in.

[01:00:21] And the one other thing I will say is a lot of times, and I'm not calling it a conspiracy

[01:00:25] theory.

[01:00:25] Again, I don't know.

[01:00:27] These more distraction ones, when people talk about adrenochrome, I get annoyed because

[01:00:30] I'm like, they're trafficking child actors on TV in front of us.

[01:00:34] Yes.

[01:00:34] Let's help that.

[01:00:35] Let's stop that.

[01:00:36] Did you watch that documentary?

[01:00:37] Of course.

[01:00:37] Yeah.

[01:00:37] Let's stop that shit.

[01:00:39] Yeah.

[01:00:39] You know what I mean?

[01:00:40] Yeah.

[01:00:40] When people ask me, like, is Hollywood creepy?

[01:00:41] I'm like, this is a business that was built on the back of a four-year-old toddler named Shirley

[01:00:44] Temple.

[01:00:45] She was dancing and twerking on men, sailors at sea.

[01:00:49] No women in sight.

[01:00:49] There was no babysitter.

[01:00:50] There was no mom.

[01:00:51] Also, in the 20s and 30s.

[01:00:53] She was like, she was the Margot Robbie of the 20s.

[01:00:55] Yeah.

[01:00:55] She was four.

[01:00:56] Yeah.

[01:00:56] And if she was in a movie of four, that means she was cast at three.

[01:00:59] Like, what are we doing?

[01:01:01] So I kind of go like, the Adrenochrome, I don't know if it's real or not, but there's

[01:01:03] current people.

[01:01:05] Yeah.

[01:01:05] Let's focus on that.

[01:01:06] That's more important.

[01:01:06] Do you know what I mean?

[01:01:07] So I get a little bit like, you know, and like, I'm not saying anything, Ellen.

[01:01:11] I don't know.

[01:01:11] But it was just like, I was always like, why are like toddlers dancing on the show?

[01:01:15] You know, I don't know.

[01:01:16] I look at the Giffies, you know, when you look through the Giffs and there's like a girl,

[01:01:19] like all this.

[01:01:20] Speaking of, look, P. Diddy.

[01:01:22] Toddlers and tiaras.

[01:01:23] And that's the other thing.

[01:01:24] So I wish I had more cult information.

[01:01:26] I'm just, I have snitch energy.

[01:01:28] I'm like a big mouth.

[01:01:29] They don't invite loud mouths to these parties.

[01:01:32] Everyone's like, did you go to a Diddy party?

[01:01:33] I'm like, I'm the worst person to invite to anything where you need to keep a secret.

[01:01:38] I have like Tourette's, you know?

[01:01:39] So, but I do think that the music business is a level of disgusting that I don't even

[01:01:46] know enough about it.

[01:01:47] I think that Hollywood, like my experience, and maybe this is just my frustration and

[01:01:53] judgment talking and I'm just being catty.

[01:01:55] I think it's actually the cult element is more like the nepotism of it.

[01:01:59] Yes.

[01:01:59] And the university, you go to USC and then you get this internship and then you become

[01:02:04] a-

[01:02:04] So there's a path.

[01:02:06] There's kind of that.

[01:02:07] And then you're in the mailroom at CAA and then you're an agent's assistant and that,

[01:02:10] you know what I mean?

[01:02:11] There's a little more, you go to this acting school and then you're, you know, I think

[01:02:14] it's kind of more like, what would you call that?

[01:02:16] Like, not a popularity contest.

[01:02:19] You know, it's like Angeline DiGiolli is amazing.

[01:02:20] I mean, she's beautiful.

[01:02:21] She probably would have got it.

[01:02:22] It's like her dad being John Voight and Jason Schwartzman.

[01:02:24] It's like, it's very hard to break in if you're not already knowing someone.

[01:02:29] It's a club.

[01:02:29] And maybe that's every business.

[01:02:30] I just don't know, you know?

[01:02:32] So I think a lot of times what I see is when I go like, how did all these people get,

[01:02:37] oh, they knew this part or they got famous really young, you know?

[01:02:40] That's the other thing.

[01:02:41] You either have to get famous really young or you have to have some kind of connection.

[01:02:44] And not to say that the people that have a connection aren't good.

[01:02:46] They grew up around Hollywood.

[01:02:47] Of course, they know how to be good at Hollywood.

[01:02:49] So there's a power structure.

[01:02:50] You're outside of it and you have an impression that there's some sort of hierarchy to that

[01:02:53] power structure.

[01:02:54] I think it's just easier to go like, you know, yeah.

[01:02:57] And look, if you right now were like, hey, my, you know, kid wants to work, I'd be like,

[01:03:02] great.

[01:03:02] Yeah.

[01:03:02] I'll have them work on my podcast.

[01:03:04] You know what I mean?

[01:03:05] I think friends also just help their friends.

[01:03:06] I think it's also kind of.

[01:03:07] That's fine.

[01:03:07] That's fine.

[01:03:08] I think it's sometimes as simple as that.

[01:03:09] Like when people say that like there's not enough diversity on sets, which I completely

[01:03:13] agree with.

[01:03:13] It's like, well, all the line producers are, you know, white guys and they hire their friends,

[01:03:16] you know?

[01:03:17] And you're also not allowed to ask someone their race or age.

[01:03:21] That's illegal.

[01:03:22] So you get in a situation where you're like, well, how am I going to ask someone?

[01:03:24] Hey, can I get a black grip?

[01:03:25] So it's like, I'm always the person going, can we just ask these uncomfortable questions?

[01:03:28] Like, how are we going to get people of color onto sets if we're not allowed to ask

[01:03:31] and find these people?

[01:03:32] So people, I think, just hire their friends and then people walk on set and they're like, how come

[01:03:35] it's all these white guys?

[01:03:36] Like, cause this is all they know.

[01:03:37] Right, right, right.

[01:03:38] Put other people in front of them.

[01:03:39] How are they going to?

[01:03:40] Maybe in the, so if you look at Hollywood, it sounds like probably comedy is down here,

[01:03:44] then film and then music in terms of like, what's the worst?

[01:03:48] Or is comedy culty too?

[01:03:50] I don't know.

[01:03:51] Comedy is, I mean, again, we're throwing the word culty around.

[01:03:53] Like there is like the comedy store, the laugh factory, the improv.

[01:03:57] I say it's more of like teams in a way.

[01:04:00] Like there's something culty about it, but it's also our job.

[01:04:02] Like you have to, like, is it culty that you're going to the gym?

[01:04:05] Every Day If You Want to Play Football is a cult.

[01:04:06] You know, it really is like, you have to be a part of this.

[01:04:11] It's us kind of looking for family, really, but also just wanting to be around other comics.

[01:04:15] So is it ever toxic?

[01:04:16] Or like, did you see the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader documentary?

[01:04:18] You know what?

[01:04:18] I haven't seen it yet.

[01:04:19] Okay, check that out.

[01:04:20] Cause I feel like if there might be a parallel there, like, do you ever show up and see

[01:04:23] things that you don't like, but can't say anything because you're afraid you're

[01:04:25] going to lose your job?

[01:04:25] That would be problematic or toxic or culty.

[01:04:28] Not now, maybe.

[01:04:29] As soon as I see something weird, I'm like, I don't.

[01:04:32] The great thing about comedy is we don't keep secrets.

[01:04:35] That's kind of our thing.

[01:04:36] So when things do come out, everyone's like, what?

[01:04:39] Like they manage to keep the secret from everyone?

[01:04:42] You know?

[01:04:43] It's like the Bill Cosby thing.

[01:04:44] That was when you're like, wait a second.

[01:04:46] Like as soon as Hannibal Buress knew about it, he was like, what?

[01:04:49] This is weird.

[01:04:50] You know, I think that that's our nature is we're the kind of like-

[01:04:53] Truth.

[01:04:54] People that blow the horn were like, blah, blah, blah.

[01:04:56] Like warning, like whatever our purpose was in the tribe, it was to like, you know, be

[01:05:00] loud and annoying.

[01:05:01] That's kind of our thing.

[01:05:03] I don't think I've ever kept a secret.

[01:05:04] Like I definitely, and I don't know if it's a culty thing or just a human nature thing.

[01:05:08] Like my people with so much power can get away with things for so long, at least before

[01:05:12] Twitter or whatever.

[01:05:14] It's like, I definitely heard jokes about Harvey Weinstein.

[01:05:16] I definitely heard stuff like that, but like, I guess maybe it's, there was nothing I could

[01:05:21] do.

[01:05:21] I mean, I was on VH1.

[01:05:22] What was I going to do?

[01:05:24] You know what I mean?

[01:05:25] You have other problems.

[01:05:26] Yeah.

[01:05:26] Like it wasn't even on my radar to even think about it, you know?

[01:05:30] And if he had called me into audition or give me a job, I absolutely would have done it

[01:05:32] and gone like, you know what?

[01:05:34] If you're going to use me, I'm going to use you.

[01:05:36] The best way that this person can do it, you know, give me a job.

[01:05:40] I'm a woman who's poor.

[01:05:41] Like, you know, help me.

[01:05:42] I don't know.

[01:05:43] Like I'm a little bit like, let's, you know.

[01:05:45] So yeah, so I'm, I'm kind of trying to answer your question.

[01:05:47] I'm not doing a good job.

[01:05:48] No, you are.

[01:05:48] This is great.

[01:05:49] Have you ever felt coerced or felt like you were not necessarily in a cult?

[01:05:53] Cause we know you weren't, but like in a situation where you felt pressured or like that there

[01:05:57] was undue influence.

[01:06:00] It definitely, I mean, what I will say is like that acting class.

[01:06:04] I remember, I was also the person that when my dad was like talking about Santa Claus, I

[01:06:07] was like, so we're not allowed to talk to strangers, but we're going to have a stranger

[01:06:11] in our house tonight that has your handwriting.

[01:06:13] Like I was, I've always, I'm always kind of a, like a weirdo.

[01:06:17] I think for me, like the cultiness of whatever the 12 step programs is has worked for me.

[01:06:23] Like when someone's like, Hey, you're going to be at the meeting today.

[01:06:25] Like that helps me be accountable and helps me, you know?

[01:06:28] So I wouldn't say that things that I felt pressure.

[01:06:32] Maybe it's this.

[01:06:34] I, I think it's more self-censorship.

[01:06:37] It's more like, was Anne Heche's death fishy?

[01:06:42] Fuck, that was nuts.

[01:06:44] Anyone else think that's weird?

[01:06:46] Like, I'll just go like, you know, let's just cut that.

[01:06:48] You know, I think it's self-censorship where I go like, it's just not, I'm not going like

[01:06:52] I'm going to protect Hollywood.

[01:06:53] I'm like, it's just not worth the comment section.

[01:06:56] It's just not worth people thinking I'm crazy.

[01:06:58] And I think that a lot of powerful people benefit.

[01:07:01] Like the thing with Taron Manning, I want to be like, people think you're crazy.

[01:07:05] Cause when you tell the truth, a lot of times you sound crazy.

[01:07:07] That's how wild the world has gotten.

[01:07:09] That's how.

[01:07:09] Right?

[01:07:10] Yeah.

[01:07:10] So I think they benefit like the squeaky wheel is always like, well, she's crazy.

[01:07:13] She's nuts.

[01:07:14] And so I really like to, Eric Weinstein talks about this, about the people who you, in case

[01:07:21] of emergency, you smash the in case of emergency button, a person who, when something's,

[01:07:26] you know, the election, whatever's going on that come talk and everyone listens on both

[01:07:33] sides, kind of like John Stewart's one of them.

[01:07:35] Like in case of emergency, John Stewart, like it's an interesting theory.

[01:07:39] He's going to speak way more elegantly and brilliant about it.

[01:07:41] I always like to go, let me speak on the things that I'm actually qualified to speak on.

[01:07:45] Like, I don't think I'm being silenced.

[01:07:47] I think I silence myself a lot because I do know how quickly people might go.

[01:07:51] People might just go, she's crazy.

[01:07:52] And when I really am qualified to weigh in, no one's going to listen.

[01:07:56] So I like to kind of just go, like you've seen it happen where people decide that they're

[01:08:00] political Avengers and then it goes from this and then this, and then they're just cause

[01:08:03] of the weak people.

[01:08:04] And I'm big on like, you know, so I definitely do a lot of self-censorship because, you know,

[01:08:09] I don't want to be like a performative chimer in or if I don't know what I'm talking about.

[01:08:14] That's smart.

[01:08:15] It's also responsible too with like the platform that you have and how you build credibility.

[01:08:20] Yeah.

[01:08:21] And it's also like, it's a business as well.

[01:08:23] You know, Olivia Munn is someone that like, we became friends because I was so impressed

[01:08:27] that she was in that movie.

[01:08:28] It was called Predator.

[01:08:29] This was a while ago.

[01:08:30] Oh, cults, animal rescue.

[01:08:33] Big one.

[01:08:34] That she was in this movie called Predator.

[01:08:35] She's the star of this movie.

[01:08:37] The irony that's called Predator, again, hiding in plain sight.

[01:08:39] She finds out that someone that she's in a scene with had a history of sexually abusing

[01:08:44] a child.

[01:08:44] I don't know the exact story.

[01:08:45] Allegedly.

[01:08:46] It's not allegedly, but you know.

[01:08:47] And she said, you have to cut the scene or I'm not doing press.

[01:08:50] And she just went all over the press.

[01:08:52] The movie had not come out yet.

[01:08:53] Everyone was like, no, no, no.

[01:08:53] Please don't say it.

[01:08:54] Let's just let it air.

[01:08:55] And then we can, you know, let's get the movie out.

[01:08:57] Her cast wouldn't talk to her.

[01:08:58] Everyone was so mad at her.

[01:09:00] I mean.

[01:09:00] That's called it.

[01:09:01] Yeah.

[01:09:02] It's tough.

[01:09:02] She literally was just like doing these interviews.

[01:09:05] Like, I don't understand why I'm the one that is the jerk in this scenario.

[01:09:09] You know?

[01:09:10] Like, I don't.

[01:09:10] Good for her.

[01:09:11] I don't care.

[01:09:12] And it was so brave and it was so cool and she was so calm about it.

[01:09:15] And I'm like, I wonder how many times that's happened and people have caved.

[01:09:19] Because not only is it whatever your reputation, but it's also your business.

[01:09:23] It's your boss.

[01:09:24] You know?

[01:09:24] It's like, you know, it's your boss.

[01:09:26] And you're getting paid for a certain job.

[01:09:28] And like, you know, that's a tricky thing.

[01:09:31] Sometimes I don't know if it's my job to just shut up and like, is this someone else's thing?

[01:09:35] Is this someone else's thing?

[01:09:37] It's like when the Crystalia thing happened, I was like, is it my job to check IDs at the door?

[01:09:41] I'm already having to work twice.

[01:09:42] It's already going to happen.

[01:09:43] Like, this isn't my job.

[01:09:44] You know what I mean?

[01:09:45] So I think a lot of times it's not about being in a cult.

[01:09:47] It's just about going like, I'm not getting paid to vet the legal records of everyone in this building.

[01:09:52] I'm not getting paid for any of this.

[01:09:53] I'm just going to do my job.

[01:09:54] And that must be someone else's job.

[01:09:56] You know?

[01:09:56] I'm not qualified for that job.

[01:09:58] You know, so I think that there's also people forget that Hollywood is just kind of a business too.

[01:10:02] And a lot of people just want to go to work and go home and go like, I just want to stay out of the drama.

[01:10:05] Like, I don't want this to be my Google search for the rest of my life.

[01:10:08] You know?

[01:10:09] I don't want to have to answer this forever.

[01:10:11] Like, I don't want to be a hero by accident or villain, whatever.

[01:10:15] Animal rescue, big one.

[01:10:17] Okay.

[01:10:18] Big one.

[01:10:18] We have not covered that.

[01:10:19] Yeah.

[01:10:20] Animal rescue stuff.

[01:10:21] I mean, look, it's like I'm hardcore, like animal rescue person.

[01:10:26] It's, you know, for me, I learned, like, it kind of has to be, it's only public if I'm like, it's the last option I have to have leverage to get an animal out or to do what I need to do.

[01:10:37] But there's a lot of charities that are secretly cults or, like, money laundering schemes.

[01:10:42] I always say, like, if I was a bad person, what's the number one thing I would do?

[01:10:46] First thing I would do is start a charity.

[01:10:48] Yeah.

[01:10:49] Always.

[01:10:49] You have to pay people.

[01:10:51] You're like, this guy is something called Founders.

[01:10:53] See, what I've seen, fascinating, if you look up Wildlife Way Station, I don't even know if it's all online, but this is when I learned about Founder Syndrome.

[01:11:00] And when you are told you're a hero enough, like, you start with, like, I'm going to rescue these animals.

[01:11:05] This woman started rescuing these animals and then started getting, she's taking $90,000 a month out of the donations.

[01:11:11] There's bears in dog crates.

[01:11:12] She's rescuing dogs, feeding them to the bears.

[01:11:16] There's no water on the premises.

[01:11:17] She's wearing fur coats.

[01:11:18] She has zebra skins in her house.

[01:11:19] Like, it's just like, how did you, were you all, how did this go from this to this?

[01:11:25] You know, I'm sure there was a couple screws loose anyway because there's a little God complex that comes in with, I'm going to save this dog.

[01:11:31] I'm going to rescue this dog.

[01:11:32] You could also just open the door and I'd probably be fine for a while.

[01:11:34] You know, when people are like, I rescued this dog.

[01:11:36] I'm like, okay, you picked it up.

[01:11:37] It's like virtue signaling with dogs.

[01:11:39] It's a little bit like, I am a hero.

[01:11:41] It's like, well, there's also like a billion more down the street.

[01:11:43] You know what I mean?

[01:11:44] So it's a little bit, you know, I'm obsessed with just words like that and how they can impact.

[01:11:48] It's like, have you ever had a landlord that wasn't an asshole?

[01:11:51] And I'm like, we have to stop calling it landlord because it's like, you're the lord of the land.

[01:11:55] Like, it's a little too, you know what I mean?

[01:11:57] Too much pomp and circumstance for me.

[01:11:59] It sounds like fiance.

[01:12:00] Yeah, it's like, I have cockroaches.

[01:12:02] I need you to get off the castle, please.

[01:12:05] Yeah, fiance is a really good one too.

[01:12:06] You know, so it's like, we rescue animals.

[01:12:09] This is an animal rescue.

[01:12:10] It's like, no, this is your hobby.

[01:12:12] And we get to give them homes, you know.

[01:12:14] And I have a lot of respect for a lot of people, you know, that do it.

[01:12:17] But it does become this fascinating addiction where if you've rescued so many animals, you get a –

[01:12:22] I'm fascinated by people that believe because they're rescuing an animal, they can be mean to a human.

[01:12:29] You know what I mean?

[01:12:30] Or – you know what I'm saying?

[01:12:31] And you're kind of just like, how do you not see the – you know, and it's a way to get power because you're like kind of –

[01:12:36] You know you're just using this animal to have power over people.

[01:12:39] And then it starts being like, well, I deserve this.

[01:12:41] I'm entitled to this.

[01:12:42] You know, it's like –

[01:12:43] Super quality.

[01:12:43] Yeah, they need an orange sash for getting their next animal.

[01:12:47] And they can have access to you in a way that's like, I have to rescue this animal.

[01:12:51] I need it.

[01:12:51] You're an authority, yeah.

[01:12:52] And then you're an asshole if you're not, you know, unctuous about it or, you know, right away.

[01:12:58] And you can ask for money.

[01:12:59] And I'm like, well, I'll pay the vet directly.

[01:13:01] Well, I need you to wire it to me.

[01:13:02] Well, no, I'll just – where's the vet that you're going to – I'll just call the vet right now and pay the bill.

[01:13:07] And like, you're not – you know, it's like, okay, well, you're – they're scamming me.

[01:13:11] It's fine.

[01:13:11] I'm just not going to go through – you know, so I think that there's – but there's a lot of meaning that's in it.

[01:13:16] You know, when I'm under the influence of rescuing animals, like, I feel like I have a lot of meaning because I think, you know, the bigger thing is people are like, why animals, not humans?

[01:13:23] Because I believe that, you know, this is something that I didn't originate at.

[01:13:27] Pause.

[01:13:28] Ed Stewart up at Performing Animal Welfare Society, he basically shut down Barnabin Bailey and took all the elephants.

[01:13:33] And you talk to all these psychiatrists about how the way children see us treating animals is how they will learn to treat defenseless, voiceless things in the future.

[01:13:44] So when we go to zoos, we're basically – they're like, it's for education.

[01:13:46] You're just teaching kids to abuse animals.

[01:13:49] You're just teaching them that you can just like, you know, things that are defenseless.

[01:13:52] There's a Voltaire quote that covers this.

[01:13:54] The way that we treat it will be judged by.

[01:13:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:13:56] You know it.

[01:13:57] Society will be judged by the way it treats its animals.

[01:13:59] Totally.

[01:14:00] Totally.

[01:14:00] And the way that we can just shut off our empathy is something that, you know, and just go like, this is for me to ride.

[01:14:05] This is for me to, you know, take pictures of, you know.

[01:14:09] And so I'm fascinated by that.

[01:14:11] Like the next generation just seeing, you know, the right – that.

[01:14:15] And there's a lot of like people in animal rescue that come from sexual abuse also and it's like a projection of it.

[01:14:21] You know, you're seeing this defenseless thing that can't send emails or remove itself.

[01:14:24] It can't choose.

[01:14:25] You know, it's kind of kids a lot of times just translates to like a – I mean animals.

[01:14:29] It's like a toddler.

[01:14:30] Tiger King must have been very hard for you to watch.

[01:14:31] Yeah.

[01:14:32] Yeah.

[01:14:32] I didn't watch it.

[01:14:33] Oh, you didn't watch it?

[01:14:34] But I did have to deal – yeah, I dealt with the – yeah, I can't say much about where the tigers are and stuff.

[01:14:38] Yeah.

[01:14:38] Yeah, it's never – if anyone is touching an apex predator, lion, tiger, or bear abuse was involved and the mother was killed.

[01:14:44] Always.

[01:14:45] No exceptions.

[01:14:46] Is that right?

[01:14:47] Mothers don't – are apex predators known for being like, here's my baby?

[01:14:52] Right.

[01:14:52] What do we know about mama bears?

[01:14:54] Yeah.

[01:14:54] They'll fuck you up if you come near their babies.

[01:14:57] So they have to be dead.

[01:14:58] Always.

[01:14:59] And if they don't get the first four months of breastfeeding, they're going to have degeneration in their spine.

[01:15:05] And so anytime you're pet holding cubs, pet, any of that, they always die.

[01:15:11] They only survive about six to eight months.

[01:15:13] And if they do, they can hardly walk.

[01:15:14] And, you know, there's a place I work with.

[01:15:16] I posted a video of it.

[01:15:17] This bear cherry bomb at this place, lions, tigers, and bears.

[01:15:19] If you want to – just know that – here it is.

[01:15:23] If something says sanctuary, it's probably a scam.

[01:15:27] Like, here's the thing about cults.

[01:15:28] It doesn't say, like, join my cult.

[01:15:29] No one says that.

[01:15:30] They say my organization.

[01:15:32] They say my –

[01:15:33] Studio.

[01:15:33] Studio.

[01:15:34] My program.

[01:15:36] You know what I mean?

[01:15:36] No cult's going to call itself a cult.

[01:15:38] Church.

[01:15:39] Church, whatever it is.

[01:15:42] And the first thing they'll be like is, I mean, we're not like a cult.

[01:15:44] You know, it's like –

[01:15:45] Yeah, yeah.

[01:15:45] So the name sanctuary is the number one problem.

[01:15:48] It's because you can call anything a sanctuary.

[01:15:50] There's no laws around it.

[01:15:51] And people don't know better.

[01:15:52] They're like, oh, this must be a – I'm helping.

[01:15:54] You know?

[01:15:55] And that drives me nuts that people spend money thinking they're helping and they're actually supporting abuse.

[01:15:58] So sanctuaries, they just go out – like that white tiger guy, Black Panther, white tiger,

[01:16:03] that guy that was on Instagram and had a – was, like, holding those white – all white tigers are inbred.

[01:16:07] All of them.

[01:16:08] They come from two tigers all inbred.

[01:16:11] That's why they have the cross-eyed.

[01:16:12] It's all mothers and, you know, sons and, you know, dads.

[01:16:16] And it's like – it's horrendous.

[01:16:18] But I am fascinated also with the animal rescue stuff of how quickly we're able to just desensitize ourselves

[01:16:23] or tell ourselves a lie, you know, of, like, an elephant being in a zoo.

[01:16:28] Like, what are you – I mean, they can't breed in captivity because they kill their babies in captivity

[01:16:33] because they don't want their babies to live, right?

[01:16:35] They kill their own – I mean, you see what's happening with the orca whales and stuff.

[01:16:38] This has always happened.

[01:16:39] We're just seeing videos of it now.

[01:16:40] Do you know what I mean?

[01:16:41] But the way we're able to tell ourselves a story of, like, oh, that lion – I mean, they're all on drugs too.

[01:16:45] So I think that it's interesting when you go to the solution and there's corruption within the solution.

[01:16:51] Yeah, for sure.

[01:16:51] It's like, oh, no, you know?

[01:16:54] So I think it's like there's a lot of really amazing zookeepers that are just there

[01:16:58] because they know that they can give the animal a good life even though they know it's in prison.

[01:17:02] So there's a lot of, like, good and evil, and there's a lot of evil in something that masquerades as good.

[01:17:08] It's, like, kind of my thing about, like, it's not men versus women.

[01:17:11] It's the good men and the good women versus the bad men and the bad women, you know?

[01:17:14] It's like I'm fascinated by your take on Ghislaine Maxwell.

[01:17:17] Did you guys see an episode on it?

[01:17:18] We've talked about her insofar as that, like, we had the equivalent of her in NXIVM.

[01:17:22] Her name is Pam, and she died of cancer before we left.

[01:17:25] And we were talking to a psychic medium on our show because I want to talk to Pam

[01:17:30] because I think Pam knows things.

[01:17:32] She's dead.

[01:17:33] She died before, like – there's two women who died.

[01:17:34] So your question about Ghislaine is what do we think of her?

[01:17:38] Like, was that a cult?

[01:17:40] Oh, yeah.

[01:17:40] I mean, it's a piece of power.

[01:17:42] Well, it used coercion.

[01:17:43] Yeah, yeah.

[01:17:43] So –

[01:17:44] It's a lie.

[01:17:44] It's like, hey, come do this, and you're actually going to do this.

[01:17:46] I feel like what's her, like –

[01:17:49] What's her kink in it?

[01:17:50] I think she was under his thumb.

[01:17:52] Yeah, yeah.

[01:17:52] And I don't –

[01:17:53] I mean, first red flag.

[01:17:54] Anytime a billionaire is dating a brunette, you know something's off.

[01:17:57] Yeah.

[01:17:57] Also, her dad was really powerful.

[01:17:59] Very.

[01:17:59] He was in, like – wasn't it, like, he owned magazines?

[01:18:02] So I've gone down some faux rabbit holes.

[01:18:05] You and I should just share a browser at this point.

[01:18:07] No, I can send you links.

[01:18:09] Give me my links.

[01:18:10] But the gist of it is supposedly he was working for Mossad, and then Epstein was going to take

[01:18:15] his place and then by proxy takes his fortune and have access to his resources, which set him up as someone who –

[01:18:22] Who has time for all this shit?

[01:18:24] Let's do more.

[01:18:25] You wouldn't let me bring you a smoothie, which would make me feel valuable, but I did bring your present for your son.

[01:18:29] But you're also, like, you're enough.

[01:18:32] Like, I'm friends with you for you.

[01:18:33] Thank you.

[01:18:33] I know, I know, but I like to get –

[01:18:34] And if I wanted a smoothie, I'd have one.

[01:18:36] I know.

[01:18:36] You know what I mean?

[01:18:37] Yeah, yeah.

[01:18:37] It's so true.

[01:18:38] It's – I always – and I don't mean it in a mean way.

[01:18:41] No, I know.

[01:18:41] I always tell people at every venue I go to, I'm like, if I need something, I'll ask.

[01:18:45] Yeah.

[01:18:45] Like, I just want you to be off the hook.

[01:18:47] Do you know what I mean?

[01:18:48] And I know that – and it is a way of just going, like, I want you to know that I just want to spend time with you for you.

[01:18:55] I so appreciate that.

[01:18:55] I don't need anything from you except your –

[01:18:57] Except these little presents for your –

[01:18:59] Undying love and loyalty.

[01:19:00] Very small presents for your son.

[01:19:03] Oh, my God.

[01:19:04] Look.

[01:19:05] Oh.

[01:19:06] This was actually a pinto horse that I – I love this.

[01:19:09] This is for me.

[01:19:10] It's not for my son.

[01:19:11] You can decide.

[01:19:12] You know that I want to get another tattoo that's my first horse, which is a paint horse.

[01:19:15] These are my favorite favorites.

[01:19:17] Oh, my God.

[01:19:18] This is a – what is these called?

[01:19:20] Sucker things?

[01:19:21] Pacifier with a mustache.

[01:19:23] Binky with a mustache.

[01:19:24] I was going to use small things.

[01:19:25] Hitler Energy mustache.

[01:19:26] But that's –

[01:19:27] He can trim it.

[01:19:28] That's just for the plane.

[01:19:30] I love this.

[01:19:31] Touch and feel stroller carts.

[01:19:32] He loves – he's such a tactile little baby.

[01:19:35] It's the age, right?

[01:19:36] Ooh.

[01:19:36] Yes.

[01:19:36] And you can play with that on the – is he with you on this trip?

[01:19:38] No.

[01:19:38] No?

[01:19:39] Okay.

[01:19:40] No.

[01:19:40] It's just like I just – it wasn't worth messing up his sleep schedule.

[01:19:43] And I feel like, you know, he's 10 months, almost 11.

[01:19:45] I feel like it's harder on me.

[01:19:46] Yes.

[01:19:47] And I just need to, you know –

[01:19:48] We're going to have to come to L.A.

[01:19:50] You have to.

[01:19:50] Because I really want to just hug him.

[01:19:52] I need all the advice.

[01:19:54] And these are just for you.

[01:19:55] Just, you know, because we give you hats every time we see you.

[01:19:57] Oh, yes.

[01:19:57] I love them.

[01:19:58] I know.

[01:19:58] I have the tie-dye one that I wear all the time.

[01:19:59] Do you still have it?

[01:20:00] Yes, of course.

[01:20:01] Oh, my God.

[01:20:02] And I still have the NXIVM Spirit Week.

[01:20:04] Did you keep it?

[01:20:05] What?

[01:20:06] Did I keep it?

[01:20:08] Are you insane?

[01:20:09] You know how much it's going to go for on eBay one day?

[01:20:11] Dude, I checked.

[01:20:12] You could probably sell it.

[01:20:13] I have one of the, like, original cult shirts from the NXIVM.

[01:20:17] His books are going for you.

[01:20:17] If you ever want it back, I figure you guys will want it back.

[01:20:20] No, no.

[01:20:20] At some point, it's like the Spirit Week.

[01:20:21] It's the original shirt.

[01:20:24] I won't even wear it.

[01:20:26] It's hanging in – you know my closet?

[01:20:27] I have the fancy shirts.

[01:20:28] It's framed.

[01:20:29] It's with your fancy shirts?

[01:20:29] I should frame it.

[01:20:30] You should send it to him and say I'm a huge fan.

[01:20:32] I have him sign it for you.

[01:20:34] Can he be visited in prison?

[01:20:35] Let's go visit him.

[01:20:36] Why not?

[01:20:37] What prison is it?

[01:20:38] It's in Tucson.

[01:20:39] I have so many questions.

[01:20:40] I'm going to Phoenix on December 6th.

[01:20:43] Whitney Cummings visits Keith Rennery.

[01:20:45] I'd love to.

[01:20:45] Oh, he would love it.

[01:20:46] He would love it.

[01:20:47] I just would – I bet he's fascinating.

[01:20:50] You should ask him.

[01:20:51] Like, what would you do differently?

[01:20:53] Because my guess is he's like, I got fucked.

[01:20:55] I didn't do anything wrong.

[01:20:56] You should ask him what responsibility he's not willing to look at.

[01:21:00] Oh, my God.

[01:21:01] You have to give me all the questions.

[01:21:02] I will.

[01:21:02] A whole slew of questions.

[01:21:02] Yeah.

[01:21:03] How did you author this?

[01:21:03] Should you have more of a people-pleasing disease or what is it?

[01:21:06] A like-me disease?

[01:21:07] Yeah, a little bit.

[01:21:08] Yeah.

[01:21:08] Yeah, he should have more of that.

[01:21:10] Yeah.

[01:21:11] Let's do this again one day.

[01:21:12] I love it.

[01:21:12] And then come out.

[01:21:13] And we're going to watch the show, obviously.

[01:21:15] Oh, gosh.

[01:21:16] We'll come watch from the side or whatever.

[01:21:17] I just have to eat something before I go on stage.

[01:21:18] Please do.

[01:21:19] Thank you so much for being here and doing this.

[01:21:21] It was like just four years in the making.

[01:21:23] You do that and go straight on.

[01:21:23] I know.

[01:21:24] So wild.

[01:21:24] I hope this didn't suck.

[01:21:26] It was so good.

[01:21:26] And we just – let's do another one.

[01:21:27] I love it.

[01:21:31] Do you like what you hear on A Little Bit Culty?

[01:21:34] Then please do give us a rating, a review, and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever

[01:21:38] you listen.

[01:21:39] Or even better, share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it.

[01:21:43] Maybe they're in a cult.

[01:21:45] Maybe they're a little bit susceptible.

[01:21:46] Just share the love.

[01:21:48] Thanks.

[01:21:48] Thanks.

[01:21:53] She's a force.

[01:21:54] She really is.

[01:21:55] Whitney, we love you.

[01:21:57] We love everything about you.

[01:21:58] And thank you for introducing me to that book about codependency, Codependent No More.

[01:22:04] I'm no longer codependent.

[01:22:05] No.

[01:22:05] Thanks to you.

[01:22:06] She's not.

[01:22:06] It's great.

[01:22:07] Sorry.

[01:22:07] Who are you?

[01:22:09] Leaving.

[01:22:11] Whitney, thank you for initiating this friendship.

[01:22:14] Thank you for introducing us to Amanda Knox and for being all that you are.

[01:22:18] Bye.

[01:22:37] A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production.

[01:22:40] Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames, in collaboration with Amphibian

[01:22:45] Media.

[01:22:45] Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy.

[01:22:48] Audio engineering by Red Cayman Studios.

[01:22:50] And our writing and research is done by Emma Diehl and Kristen Reeder.

[01:22:53] Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.