Breaking Character: Ex-Acting Students Speak Up (Part 1)

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass, North. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:27] The views and opinions expressed by a little bit culty are those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast. That's true. Any of the fire content provided by our guest, bloggers, sponsors or authors

[00:00:40] are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything. Unless you're abusing people then I have a problem maligning you. Also we're not doctors, psychologists or wizards. We're just two non-experts trying to make you a friendly informative podcast

[00:00:57] that helps you understand culty shit. Music Hey everybody, Sarah Edmondson here. And I'm Anthony Ames, aka Nippy, Sarah's husband and you're listening to A Little Bit Culty, aka ALBC A podcast about what happens when devotion goes to the dark side.

[00:01:21] We've been there and back again. A little about us, true story. We met and fell in love in a cult and then we woke up and got the hell out of dodge. The whole thing was captured in HBO docu-series The Vow now in its second season.

[00:01:35] I also wrote about our experience in my memoir, Scarred. The true story of how I escaped next to him, the cult that bound my life. Look at us. A couple of married podcasters who just happened to have a weekly date night

[00:01:46] where we interview experts and advocates and things like cult awareness and mind control. Wait, wait, this does not count toward date night, babe. We got to schedule that, that's separate. So it's two days we gotta hang out?

[00:01:57] We do this podcast thing because we learned a lot on our exit ramp out of Nexium. Still on that journey and we want to pay the lessons forward with the help of other cult survivors and whistleblowers. We know all too well that culty things happen.

[00:02:08] It happens to people every day across every walk of life. So join us each week to tackle these culty dynamics everywhere from online dating to mega churches and multi-level marketing. This stuff really is everywhere. The cultiverse just keeps on expanding and so are we.

[00:02:23] Welcome to season five of A Little Bit Cultie, serving cult content and word salads weekly on your favorite podcast platforms. Learn more at alittlebitculti.com. Welcome back everybody to this week's episode of A Little Bit Cultie.

[00:02:52] Hope you are all having an incredible summer and staying out of culty things. And this one is gonna be about acting, thank you. Are you an actor? Are you a thespian? We're two working actors, not now obviously because of the strike,

[00:03:06] but before this podcast we had our fair share of culty stories from the world of acting classes. But since we started this show, we have gotten an outpouring of requests to delve into the culty side of living the life of a thespian.

[00:03:19] And we've heard some hair-raising stories about one acting teacher in particular who is at the heart of today's episode. But look, since forever, actors have put themselves in their character's shoes to portray fictional emotion and many take intense and super-spendy classes

[00:03:36] to improve their technique to be a better actor, to deepen their craft. But how far should this training go? And who do you trust to help elevate your craft when it's a pretty vulnerable practice already? Great questions.

[00:03:48] So today's show gets into the weeds of an alleged acting class shit show. Here are the high-level bullet points for you. 26 ex-students recently spoke up about their experience under the tutelage of Michelle Lonsdale-Smith in a revelatory story published in The Cut.

[00:04:03] We have that link in our show notes for you. Michelle Lonsdale-Smith, or MLS as we'll refer to her in the show, is by many accounts, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, a pretty dogmatic leader who claims her techniques help actors tell the truth about their unresolved human motivations.

[00:04:19] But her methods may sound a little bit culty to you. They definitely set up alarm bells for us, but you know, allegedly. Our three guests today are ex-students of the MLS culty acting classes, each with their own thriving careers in film, theater, television, directing, and development.

[00:04:34] They've got some things to say. Alberta Main-Bly, Brooke Henderson, and Aaron Boyce. Welcome to A Little Bit Culty. Well, welcome everybody to this week's episode of A Little Bit Culty. We have three fabulous guests. This is such a full circle episode because we've been talking about the subject

[00:05:02] in kind of shadowed terms since literally day one of this podcast because this is about an acting teacher who not only I studied with in the early 2000s, but I left if you've heard this podcast before because I found it a little bit culty.

[00:05:18] Didn't have the language for why it was culty until much later, but these three brave women stuck around or came later in the last 20 years and spent way more time than I ever did with this acting teacher and have much more in-depth stories to share.

[00:05:35] Well, to start with the basics, who are you, what's your name, and maybe we'll also start with your brief history with MLS. Alberta, please introduce yourself and share with us how long you studied with them. My name is Alberta, and I studied with Michelle for seven years

[00:05:51] from 2006 to 2011. And you're in LA now? I'm in LA. I came down here to produce a play for Michelle, and I wasn't interested in coming to Los Angeles. My agent didn't want me to come to Los Angeles, but I came, and here I am. Amazing.

[00:06:09] This is also a great time to share a fun fact and just break the ice a little bit that Alberta also used to waitress at a restaurant called... The Elbow Room. ...and who did you serve breakfast to? Every Wednesday I would serve breakfast to you and Mark

[00:06:23] while you were there planning your school. That's crazy. And at the time, you would tell me about the school that you were organizing, and I said, this one's a little bit culty. Amazing. And here we are. And now again you would say, you should come check it out.

[00:06:41] And I'd go, sounds a little culty. Gonna continue with my acting class. And meanwhile, I was in a culty acting class that you thought was a little bit culty. So we have a very funny history that way. I love that. That's pretty funny.

[00:06:55] This is Nippy finding this out for the first time. Erin, please introduce yourself and you can also share a fun fact. Oh gosh, no pressure. I'm Erin Boyz. I'm an actor, an acting teacher, coach, and producer.

[00:07:09] And after I left the studio, I went to finish my psych degree and that's when I went into teaching after that. And I'm a mom. We connected at the play gym when your daughter and my son were a few months old

[00:07:21] and you just left the studio and the vow had just come out. And you were like, yeah, I totally get your experience because I think I was in something kind of culty too. How's that? You want that one? Yes, I will regurgitate that one. These are our connections.

[00:07:36] It's just such a weird, small, bizarre little world, all these things. It was, you know what? I knew your name. I knew your name from around Vancouver when I lived here previously as an actor.

[00:07:47] And actually what's funny to me is when I went back into, because I would always take a couple of years away and come back to the acting studio.

[00:07:55] And when I came back at one point, there were some actors in my class who were part of something called Nexium. And they were quite high up in this thing.

[00:08:03] And I remember Michelle calling them out for being in a cult and trying to take over her position as a teacher and how their language and the way that they approached their work ethic,

[00:08:19] they felt very high on themselves and very, that they were trying to teach the class instead of be in the mix of everybody else. So Michelle thought they had too much ego because of their work ethic. Work ethic and their status in the other company.

[00:08:32] Well, she would know. She's probably right. She would. Michelle, that's called projection. Okay, let's move on. I knew of your name when we first met at the postpartum spin class. You said, do you know who I am? I said, do you know who I am?

[00:08:48] You said, I think we know each other in some capacity because I think you were feeling insecure at the time about the cloud that was coming of this book and this show and everything. And so there's a little sensitivity around it. The book was out.

[00:09:04] The vow had not yet because our little ones, I think we're like few months old. Your book was out in 18. The vows fall off 20. Yeah. We met when Ace and Lyric were just a few months old.

[00:09:15] And just for the record, they're both four now and they are BFFs. So that marks our relationship at exactly four years. Erin and I, and Brooke is actually the only one who have only met on the phone. So Brooke, please introduce yourself. Yes, thank you. Hi, I'm Brooke.

[00:09:29] I currently live in North Vancouver, but I live in Toronto, which is where I studied with the studio and M my time with Michelle. I think it was around two years. It was from 2013 into 2015.

[00:09:42] Currently, I'm just taking a little break from acting because it's been a weird couple of years, you know?

[00:09:47] So I've kind of pivoted my focus more into I'm doing my post-grad and art therapy and really wanting to facilitate healing through art and with art instead of the experience that I had. So that's kind of been my like reclamation journey of all of this.

[00:10:01] And I guess fun fact is I actually studied with Erin for like the whole time I was there. And Erin and I was like my, I guess.

[00:10:07] And I've studied with Alberta and with Brooke and Alberta was someone I looked up to a lot in the studio as an actor and then as a producer. And then when she got out, she's been a leader in so many ways. So I'm really proud of her. Awesome.

[00:10:22] Yeah, Alberta has been actually my sort of touchstone to this story because we've been trying to do this episode since the beginning, since this podcast started. It's been in the background a while.

[00:10:32] It's been in the background a while and there's been a lot of people who just didn't want to talk about it. But now that the article is out there and 26 people have come forward, it's remarkable what that does for people's confidence to share stories.

[00:10:44] But regardless, the three of you are very brave to come on this podcast. I hope there are no repercussions, but there's obviously always that chance. Mostly social repercussions, I think. Just there's going to be people who are not happy that any of us are doing it.

[00:10:56] But that's what happens when you speak truth, unfortunately. And I should mention, I was in the studio from 2006 until 2015 off and on. I think I was only there for like three or four months. So I am the baby. I'm the least knowledgeable on the subject. Okay.

[00:11:15] So like all of our episodes, and this will probably be the most obvious question, but just to share a little bit about why you joined, what you were signing up for, what was the promise or what had you heard about Michelle's class?

[00:11:26] Like what was the appeal and what was good about it? So I joined shortly after my, I had a coach, Michael David Sims, and he left town. He sort of retired from teaching. So I couldn't find a class that made me work hard.

[00:11:41] You know, there was a lot of classes where I would do a scene for two weeks and move on. And I didn't find anything I could really sink my teeth into or that was like hard or scary.

[00:11:50] So I had friends tell me about Michelle and she really makes you work hard. She's like no other teacher. There was this like mystical thing around her about how much work there was. And she was compared to Larry Moss.

[00:12:04] She's like a mini Larry Moss is what a friend of mine would say. So I actually had a bad experience with one of the teachers at Lyric previously. She was, it was just very dark.

[00:12:14] So I was a little bit reluctant, but I went because I couldn't find anywhere else to study in Vancouver. And normally she made you audition, but she didn't ask me to audition. We just met. We talked and she had this like aura, like she was scary.

[00:12:29] And I wanted to please her like right away. I felt that. And so I joined and you have to join for three months. So I joined for the three months.

[00:12:37] And for those three months there was a lot of very strange personal notes about the way I would have sex and like weird things that I'd never experienced in the class. And I just had sirens in my head. Like this is not right. And I cried a lot.

[00:12:54] And then before my three months was up, she pulled me aside and said, I need you to just say yes. Even if you don't agree with what I'm saying, just say yes and everything will be okay. And I was like, okay, I can do that.

[00:13:05] I can play along, which is what I did. That kept me there. I guess that was my way of rationalizing the weird stuff that she would say. And then I would get these strange notes and I would just say yes, but I didn't agree with them.

[00:13:17] And when you said the thing about sex, it would you mean like she was giving you notes about like or asking you about your sex life? Yeah, like how I would have sex with my boyfriend and how many times I had sex.

[00:13:26] And I have a friend that still makes fun of me about it because I was like a deer in the headlights. Like why are we talking about this? This has nothing to do with my acting.

[00:13:33] I'd found it very strange, very, a lot of boundaries being pushed at the very beginning. And the only way I was able to get past that was to just ignore everything that she said and just agree.

[00:13:43] And so that took away my critical thought because then there was, I wasn't challenging anything she was saying. I would let her say whatever she wanted and I would just agree with it.

[00:13:52] And to be quite honest, I don't remember most of the stuff she said initially about any of the things because I just went along with it. And I didn't realize the danger of that initially because that made the strange stuff okay for other people.

[00:14:06] You know, they thought they should just accept the weird notes because I was just accepting the weird notes. So what I'm hearing is like with all of these things that we talk about including Nexium and all the tools,

[00:14:17] like if somebody has your best intentions at heart and wants to help you grow, you just saying yes and trusting the process could be a good thing in theory. But if she wants to manipulate you or extract value from you or push your boundaries,

[00:14:32] it makes you incredibly vulnerable and right for abuse because what you're saying is I'm agreeing to be obedient no matter what. Exactly. And that was the way to get ahead in her class was to be obedient. Otherwise you're in resistance.

[00:14:45] Which that was her thing. You're in resistance. And when you're in resistance, you're a danger to the entire room. And if you say I'm not in resistance, it's proof that you're in resistance.

[00:14:56] So you have to say oh my goodness, yes, I'm in resistance. How can I prove that I'm not? I have to obey you. Obey. Well, you answered my second question already which is great and when people just roll those two questions together,

[00:15:07] how'd you get in and what were the first sort of red flags? And that was a great example. Great example. So we'll come back to you shortly. Aaron, how did you get in and what were some of your first red flags?

[00:15:18] How did you hear about it? What did you think you were signing up for? So I had recently moved from Delaware where I grew up to Vancouver and I was studying in another studio at the time

[00:15:29] and I was obsessed with it. I loved it from the time I started acting because I had gone to an art school for seven years when I was younger and then ended up in Vancouver. And the scene study and things, I just couldn't get enough of it.

[00:15:43] And I thought the teachers were great and I was getting so much positive feedback at the studio so I knew that it was something that I wanted to do. And then I had heard tricklings from other students.

[00:15:53] I think as I was researching other schools and stuff and somebody mentioned Michelle and Lyric and there were a couple different teachers and like you had to audition to get in with certain levels. There was beginner, medium, more advanced whatever and there was different teachers teaching different levels.

[00:16:10] And so I applied and was so excited when I got a one-on-one audition with Michelle directly with this entity that I had been hearing about. And so I went in for this one-on-one with her in a room and I still think back to my heart-start stories

[00:16:27] the first time that I met Michelle because there's been many students who have physically tried to reenact Michelle because she had so many physical things that she did. She had this character and so she would sit with her knees closed and her hands in between her knees

[00:16:44] and she wouldn't talk, she'd be quiet and she'd just wait for you and look at you like she was expecting you've got me, you have my time, what are you here for?

[00:16:53] So she wouldn't really speak much and so I remember sitting in front of her and I was in my, I think I was 20, 21 and had no idea really what I was doing. I didn't know what art was, I didn't know what acting was at the beginning.

[00:17:09] I was just having fun in scene study class and so in front of her I did this monologue and I think back and the monologue was so telling. There was so much in that monologue that I chose that set me up for notes

[00:17:22] for what my vulnerabilities were because it was about family trauma and a relationship with the mother that was very toxic and there was just all this stuff that was like take me, I'm vulnerable you know, early 20s.

[00:17:36] And so I did this monologue and she said, yeah, there's a lot of work to be done here. If you want to be an actor, that's what you're here for. What is it I can do for you? And I was like, how do I answer?

[00:17:47] I don't even know how to answer that. Anyway, she took me into the class and I remember what hooked me. Well, the room was dark. It was this big room and you'd walk in and the lights would be dim and it just was this constant tension.

[00:18:00] Even walking into the hallway, it felt like I was walking like the green mile. You know how you're walking into death row? That's what it felt like walking up the stairs into the studio and into this hallway and there's something very addictive about that.

[00:18:16] It hooks you, it's the adrenaline of going into something dangerous and that's what it felt like. There was so much tension and fear in that space. So I was drawn towards that and in the first class, I remember watching an actress who was extremely pregnant

[00:18:34] and it was like a first day exercise which I didn't know what that meant and where she was working on a monologue she had been developing and she was rolling around on the ground and I think she got naked.

[00:18:43] And I might be combining two stories too because there was one woman who was pregnant and there was another woman who got naked and was writing a one-woman show and it was just at that time I just remember seeing people get naked

[00:18:54] and women trying to own their bodies and then it just at that time I was like whoa whatever that is, this is nothing I've ever seen before so this must be really good work. That's all I remember thinking because that teacher sitting over there in the corner

[00:19:10] making sounds and if those students will let her tear them apart like that she must be really good at what she does because the notes were not positive that she was giving, they were destructive.

[00:19:21] Now that I look back, when I saw people get naked and do this very vulnerable stuff they were crying, they were bringing up family drama and trauma and deep secrets but then her response would be you're lying, I don't believe you.

[00:19:35] You can go deeper, that kind of stuff so it just set up this hierarchy of doesn't matter how vulnerable people are, she will know if you're lying like only she knows the truth. And there was an acting student who did a scene

[00:19:49] and he ended up punching a glass window and there was something about that, the way that she reprimanded him and the way that she was reprimanding young men up there as well like putting them in their place was something that hooked me as well

[00:20:05] I had never seen a woman put men regularly in their place in that way like humiliating them. Not that she didn't do it to women either but I had never seen that kind of thing before and that they wanted more, like that they were hungry for it

[00:20:21] they wanted to be treated badly by her. It was a very bizarre in your early 20s when you're seeing that, it was a lot. Erin those are great descriptions. I'm just curious when you talked about that hallway, is this the studio in Gastown? Lyric, yes.

[00:20:36] It's funny when you described it, it brought back a lot of memory so Nippy this is also where I studied and you should walk up like three flights of stairs and it's down this dark hall. It's a beautiful space but I will tell you, you're absolutely right Erin

[00:20:48] and I think this is part of the whole mystique around it. If you want to be a serious actor, like walking into a space that's kind of gritty like there's this grit, right?

[00:20:57] Like there's this, you know, this must have been what it was like in the 50s, 60s, 70s in New York with like Strasbourg and like the best of the best. Like didn't they try to like bring up that vibe and that feeling

[00:21:10] and I feel like what you just described as the like it's kind of dangerous like you're going into it, you're doing it, you're agreeing to put yourself on the chopping block in a way. Absolutely. And there's something exhilarating about that. I hadn't thought of it in that way.

[00:21:23] That's really interesting. Thank you. We will come back to you for more. Brooke, what was your introduction and your hook and some of the first initial things you saw? Yeah, I was really interested in listening to Erin talk because there was a lot of similarities there.

[00:21:36] Like in my early 20s when I started, just a touch on the hallway thing to like, I didn't study at the same physical studio. I was in Toronto, but the same thing. I had the same walking up the stairs like going class. Somebody was talking about cults.

[00:21:49] I've been doing a lot of like cult digging after the article came out just because it's been so fresh in my mind and someone was talking about how one of the things because I was trying to figure out like why did I get so hooked?

[00:21:58] Like what was it? Why didn't I see the red flag earlier? And someone was like, it's a challenge. And Michelle would often say like, you know, this isn't forever actor. You have to be at a certain stamina.

[00:22:10] You have to be at a certain like level to be here. And I remember being so young and being like, I can do that. Like sign me up. I can do this. And I think that challenge is what kept me staying because I didn't want to feel like

[00:22:21] I failed if I left even though there were alarm bells going off. So anyways, I just wanted to touch on that because I totally remember that fear of walking up to the classroom. So I went to a film school in Vancouver and I was graduating

[00:22:34] and I was moving back to Toronto. So I asked the head of the program like who was a good teacher to go to in Toronto. I didn't know any acting coaches. And it's funny now looking back on it because the school I went to

[00:22:45] a lot of the teachers there actually had such a relationship to Michelle from Lyric. And I didn't know that like I was almost like set up to go there. Not really, but that's how it felt is because all of my acting coaches were from Lyric.

[00:22:59] And then I guess the reason why I trusted this coach in particular when I asked where do I study in Toronto? When I was in a film school, I lost a parent. Everything was very raw.

[00:23:08] And what I liked about it being in film school is that the coaches were really okay with dealing with the raw emotion. Like they weren't tiptoeing around it. They were dealing with it. So I think when I went to Michelle's studio in Toronto again,

[00:23:22] it was like I'm in this environment where people are dealing with the raw emotions and letting me have them. So I think that was another reason why I was like, this is quote unquote a safe space because I can just be emotional and sad

[00:23:33] even though it was not safe. But me showing up sad in a way was safe and they would let me sit with that in a way, even though it was eventually like weaponized and things changed. So my first inklings of things that were culty,

[00:23:47] they would often tell you and encourage you to bring family members or friends to come audit, which I always kind of felt weird about because I knew people were going to think like what are you doing?

[00:23:57] So I brought a boyfriend at the time to come because I was too scared to bring my mom. I knew if I brought my mom she'd be like no. So I brought the second person who was the boyfriend at the time

[00:24:07] and I was doing this scene and it was like a relationship scene but kind of like a breakup scene. And again, we are getting into like these weird personal notes. And I was quite young and it was my first boyfriend and she asked me

[00:24:21] if I had ever cheated on a partner before and I was like, no, which was true but I was like, why are you asking this in front of my partner? And she kept prying and kept prying and kept prying because obviously

[00:24:33] you have to say yes because you're in resistance. So eventually I just went on this tangent how I wish I cheated on a boyfriend or something like that. And then she said she was like so impressed with my honesty

[00:24:45] even though it was all fabricated because she wouldn't lay off me. And I think she realized that I was young and that if she pushed just a little bit I would do whatever she said. So then I got like the invite to go study in New York

[00:24:57] which was all of the retreats were just like they would talk about it like it was Disneyland or something. If I didn't go to a retreat and then they all came back they would make sure to make a big deal about it,

[00:25:07] about how it was so transformative and how you weren't there. So excuse not to be there it's yada yada yada. So I missed the first one so I was like I have to go to New York.

[00:25:16] Then I think she saw that I was you know she'd push a little bit and I would admit to all these things that weren't true and then yeah it was like a challenge to us like yeah okay I can do this

[00:25:25] like sign me up for New York I'll make any story up I'll do it. So a couple things there I want to make note of especially the first part about like the commitment is what it takes

[00:25:34] and if you don't do it and this is something that we've been talking about from day one that all of these groups there's a sphere if you don't commit or don't complete or don't you know stay with the group

[00:25:45] and in religious groups it's like God will smite you and you'll be blind or you'll be working at McDonald's or get cancer or whatever. Also her obedience was rewarded. Yes. Yeah. With a trip to New York.

[00:25:57] And then creating FOMO around that like you're missing out on this amazing thing and the scarcity mentality is like these little crumbs. In order to achieve the amazing thing it requires your obedience. That was the other thing when you talk about FOMO when I first started back in 2006

[00:26:12] or whenever it was when I walked into the studio for the first time there's all these people talking in whispered tones and like as if it was a Disneyland kind of thing. Anyway it was called the tornado of talent and she had a name for different things

[00:26:25] but this was the tornado of talent was this thing where only the bravest of the brave performed and they would get naked or sing or whatever your biggest fear was you were supposed to do publicly and I never did it for years.

[00:26:40] I never crossed that line into it because I started to get trashed on so bad in class that I never believed I was good enough to do the tornado of talent but it was this thing that other actors who were so brave and talented did

[00:26:53] and then that took them up a notch and they became the ones to admire in the class but I imagine if I had actually gone to see the tornado of talent it would have looked pretty messy now that I think back

[00:27:05] but in my head it was this like Oscar winning performance that people were doing. This is the golden age of cult recovery the more we speak up and share our stories the more we realize we are not alone your voice and your story can empower others

[00:27:24] This is Sarah and I'm proud to be a founding collaborator of the hashtag I got out movement learn more at I got out dot org

[00:28:05] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp What are your self-care non-negotiables? Maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep maybe that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it? Well I definitely have some non-negotiables like I'm in Vancouver right now

[00:28:25] and I'm spending literally as much time as I can outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it Nature is a non-negotiable not enough time in the fresh air and the trees around me and I start to feel not great not myself not grounded

[00:28:37] Therapy day is a bit like my nature walks I try to not miss it and I know I'm just gonna feel so much better all around if I make it a priority I get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties

[00:28:48] in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so I can focus on what I really need and sometimes what I don't need like I don't need to be overbooking myself just because I hate to say no to people you know what I mean? Thanks Therapy

[00:28:58] thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting therapy give BetterHelp a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime

[00:29:11] for no additional charge look even when we know what makes us happy it's hard to make time for it but when you feel like you have no time for yourself non-negotiables like therapy are more important than ever never skip Therapy Day with BetterHelp visit betterhelp.com

[00:29:25] slash culty today to get 10% off your first month that's BetterHelp H-E-L-P dot com slash culty tell us what the trainer of talent was like let's get into like what life was like in this group you know I sang and it was interesting because about the obedience

[00:29:43] I did it because I felt I had to and singing isn't that big of a deal but I made it seem like it was a big deal so I could just go do it and get it over with and then be called brave

[00:29:56] so I was kind of gaming her system where I was like falsely you know just to avoid the conflict just to avoid the nonsense I would make it seem like oh my god I can't do this this is so scary and then I would do it

[00:30:11] and I was just so brave and she would tell me how brave I was and that was it it was like it was very silly but there was that mystique like it was a mecca a friend of mine who did it she did stand up

[00:30:24] she was a bit before my time but she did stand up and then she went on to be an amazing stand up comedian so some things good did come out of it but the undercurrent of control and obedience was really prevalent

[00:30:38] I think that's a good point to make and I'm sure any actor who's done the work will attest to like you have to overcome certain fears to be a depthy actor like you just have to right and so finding someone you trust to take you there

[00:30:52] is so important but just hearing you speak about specifically the tornado talent which I also avoided like you there's another caveat too it's like when you're going to take an acting class and someone presents a process to you the only way to find out

[00:31:05] if that process works well is go all in and so you're gonna have to put trust into some sort of method and here's someone who's built some credibility amongst other people which is why you're there and you guys are going all in and trusting a method

[00:31:18] I mean you're broke for a long time as an artist so money is a huge deal you're working three jobs to be able to afford to pay for an acting class she abused a system she leveraged a craft she did and I don't want to dig in

[00:31:32] a little bit just to paint the picture for people who I know I make some assumptions you know Nippy too is also an actor for those people who aren't actors what it looked like is again walking down this dark hall into a dark room with slanted seating

[00:31:44] so like a little mini arena right and then a black stage and black curtains and lights on the stage like a mini black box in a classroom that's the classroom and it would often be seen study which means you're working on a scene within another partner

[00:31:56] for the month usually right but before you go up on stage and perform the scene you do a methodology that was not hers where did relaxation come from originally it's a battle between a couple teachers they've got an argument going from the past

[00:32:09] but relaxation is just sitting on a chair can someone describe how to do relaxation just this darkness comes over my body when I think about relaxation in that space and every other space after that so the basics are you sit in a chair

[00:32:23] and you start with the breath and then where you feel tension in your body you move that body part to try to release the tension in your muscles so the emotion can flow through it because we close ourselves up throughout the day we build tension in our muscles

[00:32:37] we shut everything down so the point of relaxation is basically to clear yourself so you're a clear vessel so when you go to your scene study work there's no tension or held emotion in the way and you eventually put it onto text too

[00:32:49] after you move it through the body so you'll start you'll be like oh my shoulder's tense you kind of like you can't really see me but you're kind of moving your arm in this way to release it and move it through and then you're usually either vocalizing

[00:33:01] just on a sound and then eventually putting it on a monologue however her version did eventually change to a thing called the orchestra oh I never heard that super fun oh yeah that was fun because you're all up on see

[00:33:13] like all the actors are doing relaxation at once it's not one at a time so you walk in you grab a chair you're sitting on the stage so if you were an audience member or an auditor watching the class it would look like on the stage

[00:33:24] 15 to 10 after sitting in black folding chairs moving their arms and like crying and saying Mary had a little lamb or doing a Shakespeare monologue Nippy would have hated this so bad Nippy would have left so fucking quick I can't even tell you I haven't done this in 20 years

[00:33:39] can someone make a sound it'd be like ohhhh and then you start shaking and she'd be like yes yes go with that follow it and then eventually an emotion would break through and either be screaming or crying or laughing and then she would I don't know

[00:33:53] do her own interpretation of that and tell you to walk you through like why you hated your mom or something and actually before I turned to the orchestra because I just went through emails recently looking at the trajectory of the different amalgamations of this class

[00:34:06] like what it went through so I think it was around 2013 or 2014 they did a trip to Jamaica the first trip where that was like they were doing relaxation and all these actors went and came back came back because after that the email started

[00:34:22] it's similar to the tornado of talent the email started to be about the major shift that had happened in the artwork and now we have a new direction that we're following and we're starting with something called The Equation and the blah blah blah

[00:34:36] I mean the document that she sent is four pages long and it's about all the new terms that they had picked up in this Jamaica class and then the New York intensive and the LA intensive and then something was introduced in the orchestra

[00:34:49] so before they got to the orchestra she had started bringing in calling yourself out during relaxation so what was that called Brooke? Speaking Out Speaking Out was your way of calling yourself so she wanted us to now be further along in the work where she didn't have to

[00:35:05] call us out for our blocks we were supposed to be able to name our own it would be like I'm moving my shoulder now I've got my arm up I'm moving my shoulder breathing into the tension but I can feel Jane in the room

[00:35:18] and I'm jealous of her and I want her body and so that's making me self-conscious of my own body and I can't breathe down to my stomach because I'm so full of anger and haaah and then you start making all these sounds and she'd be like yes, yes

[00:35:31] there you are you're in your truth and what would you say to Jane if she was standing right in front of you and you'd be like I hate you and you make me think about my mother blah blah blah and all of a sudden it was like

[00:35:42] you versus this other student in the room when really the class before she would have put the notes and she'd be like I'm not gonna say why don't you just be honest about your jealousy towards Jane the last month I did Michelle was a student

[00:35:54] so she was in the orchestra and she kept calling me out and I was 22 at the time and I was completely in like a frozen state because here's my like you know godlike coach just attacking me in the orchestra constantly about how she couldn't do the art

[00:36:11] because I was there how I was sucking all the talent out of the room and then I had my other coach trying to mediate it why was Michelle a student because she wanted to study I have no idea because it moved from the speaking out stuff

[00:36:25] and then there was these big trips that happened and in these experiments on the beach and everything people were like in these tropical environments students and remember at this point she had created a hierarchy so the bottom third could go to these weeks in Jamaica the middle third

[00:36:42] could go these weeks and the top third could go these weeks and it was based on your ego basically and your willingness to submit so then these groups did these relaxation things and that turned into an orchestra thing where you were focusing on your own work

[00:36:56] but also calling out other people and they were calling you out and sometimes it was beautiful it was a beautiful artistic experience where people were working together and aligned but then it also turned very dark and people turned against each other and then it was actually in 2006 or 2007

[00:37:14] I remember Michelle sitting in a present exercise with a male student and this was when I was in my early 20s because a male student was in resistance she sat in front of him in chair exercise and they started to admit like sexual attraction to each other

[00:37:30] and this young male student like imagine a teacher sitting in front of you making eye contact with you breathing with you and saying tell me what you're feeling right now tell me what you're feeling and him having to say and you would start to

[00:37:45] mind through your own head to think what can I say here that's okay because I don't want to insult this person I don't want to lie right like what if you were to say I'm not attracted to you then she would say is it because I'm black

[00:37:59] or is it because I remind you of my mother like she would use these things against you so that stuff years of that turned into this bizarre orchestra scenario that Brooke will talk to but she would put herself in these positions which was really scary and damaging

[00:38:15] is this the young man that became her boyfriend oh no no this was like her men before that she destroyed so many men before that kid yeah you reminded me of something because I was there before the orchestra it was just relaxation but I remember in relaxation

[00:38:30] maybe this is just me but tell me if you relate to this but like sometimes I was actually getting relaxed but more than anything I was trying to show I could get approval and like move on with the exercise like I was so conscious of where she was

[00:38:43] in the room and like if she could see me or not see me or like if I sounded like I was relaxed but there's just so much like you're just trying to prove yourself to like go up the hierarchy versus actually do the work because you're proving

[00:38:56] yourself to one person who had all of the say over if you were relaxed or not that is a bizarre situation to be in you take it into your own head as you're watching and you're talking about other people's work so then you're assessing what relaxation is

[00:39:11] based on her assessment of other people's work as well so there's no free thought it is all Michelle's point of view Yeah that's taking away the critical thought you had to just say yes and agree with what she said whether or not it was true and she became

[00:39:27] this like beacon of truth she was the one that everyone would rely on to see if like this was actually going well and it might not have come with all the students watching somebody's work and she would say I don't believe you and if the student resisted

[00:39:42] her and said I'm telling the truth she'd turn to people and the you know the students sitting around her and say am I wrong here you know what let's put it out to the students does anybody see truth happening up there on the stage and then

[00:39:56] if you spoke out and said actually maybe I believe them she'd say well that's because your ego is up right now because you got torn apart in your last scene and you're there in ego and you're a liar and your liar recognizes their liar yeah so the easiest

[00:40:11] thing to do was just everyone shot their hand up in agreement and then you had to look out to 15 people also calling you a liar and then I'm sure those low moments were then covered up with moments of acknowledgement or like getting the gold star

[00:40:26] for some brave work and then you keep going for that moment oh gosh the good notes were like everything Michelle shone her light of approval on you oh god it's like icky to talk about it was just like you you did it you got the gold star

[00:40:43] like I honestly felt like I had like finished a marathon or something like it's so toxic to talk about now and it's so icky to bring up but when I got even just a simple like the nod and I believe you was like oh like everything

[00:40:57] like that's how addicting it was and then when she really praised you on like a monologue or something really went off it was like everything like you felt like oh my gosh my dreams are coming true you know Michelle's telling me that I'm probably gonna book something soon

[00:41:12] or whatever it was like it was just like a step toward your goal and you felt like you were getting there and it's so icky to talk about now because it's like one toxic acting coach saying that but it really did feel like everything well I left

[00:41:25] before the orchestra so I did miss out on that I just found myself cocaine a lot so I could get the gold stars we had a weird relationship because I produced theater and my toxic boyfriend at the time produced movies that Michelle would audition for

[00:41:42] so I didn't really piece this together until much later she had me immediately on a hierarchy I was put above because I could offer her something I could offer her potential jobs and I didn't think of it that way at the time but she would

[00:41:59] say things to keep me in that relationship because her notes were never acting notes they were always personal notes and so it would be things like this boyfriend will love you like nobody else will love you you need to stay with him and I'd go yeah you're right

[00:42:14] you're probably right like nobody else is going to be able to love me so I should stay with this guy who's absolutely horrendous and the life notes that's where the problem really lies because we're just about acting if you were just going into that room

[00:42:31] to become a better actor great do the hard stuff that's fine get naked if it helps whatever but when you get involved in life notes and you do comply it's not right like she's not a therapist she's an acting teacher hey there listener hope you're enjoying this episode

[00:42:51] and that you're taking deep breaths when we cover the enraging stuff that cult jerks are up to let it out as in the yoga practice inhale and exhale negative that's for you Sarah we got this no hooking it out all you will hoaxers and if you need some

[00:43:06] helpful resources on the topic of cult recovery check out our website at a little bit culty dot com and now here's a brief message from our sponsors Meals bring people together but for many families providing their next meal can be a challenge you can help by participating

[00:43:23] in Macy's annual feeding the hungry food drive all proceeds go toward local food banks and families if you're a 30 first you can purchase an icon in store or online or watch out for the blue feeding the hungry shelf tags where a portion of your purchase will be donated

[00:43:39] to local pantries together we can combat hunger in our local communities at Macy's the frankies were a picture perfect influencer family but everything wasn't as it seemed I just had a 12 year old boy still up here asking for help he's emaciated he's got tape around his legs

[00:43:58] ruby frankie is his mom's name infamous is covering ruby frankie the world of Mormonism and a secret therapy group that ruined lives listen to infamous wherever you get your podcasts does anyone know her history where did she study she studied under a student of least drop

[00:44:20] yeah she had a teacher who I'm in contact with a little bit but she studied with her for a year essentially and then went to Gastown for a year I mean this is kind of what I've pieced together and then she opened up a studio

[00:44:33] and she would speak out against formal university training because I remember I started a degree and then I felt shame about going into university and left university to pursue acting full time how old was she well now she's like 60 something so late 30s when she started

[00:44:50] and I do want to go back for a second because that question about what the good notes felt like I have a very good example of a journey with this so I was in a session and I have two examples one is something I watched

[00:45:03] and one is when I experienced so there was another student that I was studying with and we're good friends now and she's awesome there was a lot of hard stuff that we went through in that class at the time and she had gotten notes about her partner

[00:45:18] who was in the class as well so both people were together and when I was watching her notes it was a lot of you're trying to destroy your partner's career you want to take this person apart you are jealous of them you don't want them to succeed

[00:45:34] and then she would warn him she's trying to destroy your relationship you cannot let this person take you down so this was just an example of turning couples against each other which happened in the studio and these were two very driven motivated beautiful artists and they're okay today

[00:45:51] but at the time this relates to the second part which is so that was how they were being set up and then there was my notes which in this particular session were Aaron do you know that you're a home wrecker and I had to sit in those

[00:46:07] notes in the middle of 20 people at the time and I remember being so taken off guard by that question like these were notes after I had tried to do a scene and do you know that you're a home wrecker I didn't and then because

[00:46:21] I had been torn apart so much in the previous sessions I was desperate to not be in resistance again it was like probably an hour of her berating me and questioning me in a way where I sat there and I was desperately trying to think

[00:46:39] of examples that I had where I had slept with a married man where I could prove that yes I was a home wrecker because I wanted to admit that I knew that I was a home wrecker so that I could get out of this

[00:46:49] and so then I did admit it and I came up with stories in my head and the thing is there was a thing about her where you believed she knew more about you than you did she just knew because she was who she was she knew

[00:47:01] she's an oracle and she would say things like oh god this is just it hurts me I don't want to say these things to you I don't know how I know these things but I do and then she would say the thing and she'd be like

[00:47:17] Erin do you know that you're a home wrecker and so eventually I admitted it and it became this thing in the classroom where Erin is a home wrecker damn it you were in my home two weeks ago you could have wrecked my home

[00:47:26] were you evil little home wrecker I know I know so then this couple anytime I would come near them I was so self aware it became like I couldn't even talk to a man in the classroom without thinking in my head I'm trying to destroy him

[00:47:43] and his family and I want to sleep with him and feeling like all the women in the classroom saw me as this and they did like this friend of mine and I recently talked and she said I just knew because I knew that you were going after

[00:47:57] my partner and we've apologized to each other and addressed this but she said I became obsessed with that because I knew that I was second place and I knew that you would take him from me so then it was painful and then eventually

[00:48:14] I was put in a scene with the guy that she was dating which let me tell you when you're in a scene as a home wrecker with the teacher's partner it's a really uncomfortable place to be like I just couldn't breathe without thinking

[00:48:28] that I was trying to seduce someone that's the weight of what that became did she give you a scene where it was physical like it was a romantic element to it all the time and she would micromanage my physical behavior through it that's not your sexuality Aaron

[00:48:41] no Aaron you're not being truthful yet Aaron is that really how you behave sexually and I feel like I've actually never been in a position where I have whips and chains and I'm like I don't know what I would do with these things you know what I mean

[00:48:55] like I don't know what you want from me and then that kind of a response if I broke enough and said I don't know what to do right now she would say well now you're playing stupid and this is what resistance looks like can everybody watch this closely

[00:49:10] so we don't waste time in the next class I'd like everybody to see what resistance looks like this is an actor in resistance it was such a mind fuck when I look back to that and then this goes around to that note where it's positive thing

[00:49:25] she gave me scenes of Marilyn Monroe and then I was very good at being drunk and high and playing these broken women and I got a lot of them in class and they were a joy for me to do a lot of the time

[00:49:38] but she would say things whenever she would decide I was doing good work it would turn into you are this generation's Marilyn Monroe I want everybody to take note of this this is why the resistance is so high in you because you are this generation's Marilyn Monroe

[00:49:51] now when I think back to that I'm like so did she mean because I'm a home wrecker or did she mean because I have a history with addiction like does she mean I'm actually a good actor I have no idea how to apply those notes

[00:50:03] to an acting career I have no idea what any of it means I still to this day look back at a lot of her notes and think what did she mean where was that coming from at the time

[00:50:14] but the thing is she probably was just pulling it out of her ass at the time totally knowing what I know now I think she's just trying to see who would agree to what like how beating it would people be what would people accept just a test

[00:50:27] like the most obscure thing hmm home wrecker let's see how she handles this what's the end game I think just like beating you down enough and breaking you down enough you'll just like follow her for eternity so you think she enjoys the be raiding

[00:50:42] and the abuse and doing that that's her work yeah I think so I mean you would have to to a certain extent she used to be nice she changed and I was trying to think the other day when was the big change that happened

[00:50:55] and I think there's a couple students that started to study with her that she saw these are lifers there's some real stuff I can do here like she just got better and better and better as she went at seeing people's brokenness and knowing how she could manipulate them

[00:51:09] into staying in the class and doing things for her I don't know who Michelle would be without her community of actors around her and without being a teacher I don't know what other skills she has like how she would survive she had a little entourage

[00:51:22] of people that would do things for her and like still has it so you just think she likes the power the attention yeah I think she was testing people a lot I think she was testing how far can I push them and if they push them so far

[00:51:34] and they still stayed and they're like quote unquote like trustworthy or worthy or whatever her word is of that and then she has you know a few people who are lifers who have passed all the tests and they do take care of her in a way

[00:51:47] and I think they give her what she needs emotionally and sometimes like physically in a sense where they're like driving her around or like doing errands for her it's more than just driving her around rather than doing chores for her and massaging her feet

[00:51:59] there's a group of people that fund her travels around the globe so these group of actors who are Canadian will go and study in New York without a permit to do so they'll go study in Italy without a permit to do so they're following her

[00:52:15] all over the place funding things building her a house and they don't have the actual papers to do so so they're at risk of getting themselves in trouble with the law and that's never really brought up but there has been people

[00:52:28] who have come down to the United States gotten caught for traveling down to study and then been banned from the United States for five years it's on the actor for doing so but there's no thought about other people in what she's doing she just has this little world

[00:52:44] where they all orbit around her and follow her all over the globe and fund her but there's no thought it's under the radar they're special they can do this a lot of it's nonsense because it isn't about the acting no it's like the acting part of the thing

[00:52:59] that she's built is secondary if it were about the acting then the acting would get better you know what she said once she said she basically was like why would you want to be a successful actor when you could stay in the lab

[00:53:13] and be a really great studio actor forever and we could just like be in the lab like doing these experiments and I was like I don't think anyone wants to do that that became the most important thing was that room and putting the effort into that room

[00:53:28] and if you went away you were punished or criticized or there would be withholding afterwards so if you went away to work in another city booked something else I'm worried about you I don't think you're really serious about acting it's like what I just booked something

[00:53:47] and worked a couple of episodes in another city how am I not serious there's an actress who's killing it who's been successful for a very long time I was thinking about this the other day how crazy it was we were in Toronto in the studio

[00:54:01] this actor would be filming in Vancouver wrap on a Friday fly to the studio Saturday morning just to be in the room for a day and then fly back to filming you know who it is Alberta and this actor would be admired because of her commitment

[00:54:19] and Michelle would say things like I don't get it she's crazy I just I don't get you you are just you're crazy you're just you want to be in this room all the time I don't get it Erin gets the award for the best Michelle Lonsdale Smith impersonation

[00:54:34] FYI yeah you're killing it though it's great she kind of turned to do a British woman when I do her I don't know why we should have a contest where Nippy impersonates Vanguard and then oh my god can you imagine Keith Runieri and Michelle Lonsdale Smith in conversation

[00:54:47] that'd be amazing that would be a cool experiment that's an experiment I would sign up for just watching them it sounds like they'd both been in a room within like 30 seconds he's way too old for her no that's just where it's all headed for them now right

[00:55:01] I think if you put the two of them in a chair in present exercise they would both just implode there wouldn't be any words they'd just both go it'd be a spontaneous combustion I just want to kind of recap because I think it's always important

[00:55:14] for people to understand that all of these things have good elements obviously you're kept in partly because of the obedience you want to be a committed actor I think somewhere if you leave you're never going to be a successful actor

[00:55:26] which is part of that sort of built-in phobia right but to recap what I'm hearing and tell me if there's anything I'm missing there is something and there has been like since acting classes existed something very powerful about being with other actors and being inspired

[00:55:41] seeing people do deep work and be vulnerable and be open and like not care it's like nobody's watching not be aware of them being there and just have a private moment on stage and be able to do what the people gifted is to be able to do that

[00:55:55] and I think that a lot of this does facilitate that so like with a lot of these things there's these two sides of it there's like some good elements and then there's the dynamic with the teacher and the class and the gaslighting and the obedience and the us

[00:56:07] versus them remember when I said how I left and one of the things I didn't have the word us versus them I just said insular like everyone in that group they think that they're the best and all the other acting classes suck

[00:56:19] you know like this is the only place I left an acting class because the teacher started criticizing another method and said that to the student that methods fucking you up and I was like how did you know that to me it just seemed like

[00:56:32] I don't look at someone's process and go I can recognize their method so I left well what drew me to this studio time and time again was I would go study other places and they would never be the work ethic that matched that so it wasn't classes

[00:56:47] that went on from five to seven hours I think it was ingrained in me from the beginning when I first started to work at Michelle's studio that what I was capable of doing so she showed me that I am able

[00:56:59] to be in a classroom for five to seven hours and have focus and determination and take hard notes and still pick myself back up and go home and sit with that stuff and so it did teach me resilience in a way that I think

[00:57:14] was unique to that experience and so then when I would go study which can be part of the toxic part of it too because I would go to regular classes and it wouldn't feel that high it would feel so mediocre

[00:57:27] because I was used to sitting in a studio until I was like bleary eyed trying not to fall asleep sitting up and the commitment was so high and then the commitment of running the lines and what memorization took and how scared I was to go into the classroom

[00:57:40] without being fully memorized it taught me how to memorize the lines in plays like nothing else so there was a level of work ethic that I felt was a beautiful thing that I learned in there but that also meant I was around people that matched that commitment

[00:57:55] so I was in a room with some of the most committed artistic creative human beings I've ever been in really and sometimes I still question that to think but how much of that was the studio talking to me and telling me that that's what it was

[00:58:11] but even to date I've made short films with students outside of the studio I've done monologue slams outside of the studio and some of that work that I did is some of the most creative beautiful stuff I've ever done and it was with people from the studio

[00:58:27] so it was with these actors that I really bonded with and loved dearly and then Jamaica when I went for this 11 day intensive and when I went to New York for this 8 day or whatever it was intensive being in another place

[00:58:41] where I don't have to worry about my job and my family and I'm just immersed in acting I still look back on that and I'm like that was some of the most beautiful I'm just so grateful I got those experiences in my life

[00:58:55] where I got to be in Jamaica doing Tennessee Williams cat on a hot tin roof hot and sweaty and in like silk pajama silk negligent you know my artist was so happy sometimes getting to explore that stuff when do you ever get to experience that

[00:59:11] you know so that stuff is the beautiful stuff there are opportunities that were there but then there's a dark side to it but that beautiful art that we got to make was why we all kept coming back I think that's so important because people would say

[00:59:25] like why don't you just leave if it was so bad why don't you go and part of it is because of those good experiences the good outweighs the bad until it doesn't we'll talk about that next any other good nuggets anyone want to share before we wrap part 1?

[00:59:39] I can share, the community of actors was also very inspiring to be around it was so lovely to be around people my age that were acting you could just talk kind of shocked with them and they got it they were all committed and

[00:59:53] saying I went to New York and some of my favorite memories too were walking around the streets of New York like running along with my scene partner I was like oh my gosh I'm a real actor it was so cool and it's one of my favorite acting memory

[01:00:07] it was so cool. Another thing that I think I have a strength from especially because I'm doing my post-grad in art therapy, I'm really not afraid of emotions at all like somebody can throw any emotion at me and I've probably seen it 10 times more intensely in the studio

[01:00:23] and also body tension there was a lot of emphasis on relaxation like holding tension in your jaw and your forehead and your shoulder as I'm clenching my jaw I say that but especially with myself but also when I'm working with clients I can see if there's an emotion

[01:00:39] and I'm not going to pry as much as the studio did and she'll did but it is part of like the therapy process to comment on noticing like oh I noticed that you have a bit of tension in your jaw after you said that comment about

[01:00:51] whatever so those are skills that I think I did really gain from the studio and the community so there were positive things and positive skills I got out of it Alberta anything you want to add? There was definitely beauty in the community and where I came from

[01:01:07] as an actor before jumping into this studio was I had a work ethic and I would rehearse 30 hours a week with three different scene partners and I was really into it I loved acting the work ethic is different in this studio because you're not

[01:01:21] actually really allowed to rehearse you just run lines you don't get together and like work out a scene you're just supposed to spend time together and run lines that's it maybe it's changed now so the work ethic was more about your devotion and spending time

[01:01:37] in the studio and putting in free work and doing errands organizing parties raising funds that was the work ethic being a part of this community was just the work ethic and then when you didn't study when you left class that community was gone you were

[01:01:57] considered a civilian or other then so the community is really fake in a way which is interesting because the studio is all about truth but it's empty because as soon as you decide that you don't want to go to Jamaica or as soon as you decide

[01:02:13] you need to take a break from studying that community is gone right so call to your red flag number one you can't leave I remember sitting in an audition once after I left I've probably been out for about a year and somebody from the studio

[01:02:27] walked up to me and I was like oh hi how are you doing and they were like before we talk I need to know if you're in or out and I was like what do you mean

[01:02:35] I thought they were joking I was like what are you talking about like in or out what they repeated the question and I was like are you talking about the studio it was so weird they would not converse with me further

[01:02:45] until I told them if I was in or out or not I never got sucked into doing favors and stuff for Michelle that was never part of my thing there was other people that were way more she had monitors in the class like I think that started maybe

[01:02:57] in LA I was never trusted enough because I was in resistance probably for my entire acting I would go in and it was very hard I would say Michelle probably said I was in resistance until the last two years of my commitment to her

[01:03:13] which ended up in Toronto and which broke my brain so after those two years of full-time commitment in Toronto I snapped and but previous to that because I was in resistance for so much of what was going on I was never trusted enough to be the person

[01:03:29] to be one of the people doing things for her lucky for you I want to hear about the snapping and the final straws we're going to save that for part thank you everybody for sharing your stories of how you discovered the studio

[01:03:41] it was good about it was bad about it all the messy shit in between so we'll see you next week on a little bit culty

[01:04:30] next week

[01:05:03] for more background on what brought us here check out Sarah's page turning memoir it's called scarred true story of how I escaped next to him the cult that bound my life it's available on Amazon audible narrated by my wife and at most

[01:05:17] bookstores a little bit culty is a talk house podcast and a trace 120 production we're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Neal and I'm a big fan of the studio and I'm a big fan of the studio we're executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Anthony

[01:05:33] Nippy Ames with writing research and additional production support by senior producer Jess Tardy for edited mix and mastered by our rocking producer Will Rutherford of citizens of sound and our amazing themesong cultivated is by John Bryant in co-written by Nigel Asselin thank you for listening