Decoding Mindf*ckery: Dr. Robin Stern on The Gaslight Effect

[00:00:00] This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access, to powder-skiing legacy, to independent spirit. North where easy to get to, meets worlds away. Go north to snow basin. Now on The Icon Pass. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical

[00:00:31] or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson and I'm Anthony air quotes Nippy Ames

[00:00:55] and this is A Little Bit Culty. A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad. Every week we chat with survivors, experts and whistleblowers for real

[00:01:06] cult stories told directly by the people who live through them. Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way. Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into

[00:01:16] something culty, you're already prime recruitment material. You might even already be in a cult. You better keep listening to find out. Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty. Hello everybody and welcome back to this week's episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:48] Today's guest is Dr. Robin Stern. She's not your average psychotherapist. You know what? We'll just call it she's a baller. She's renowned for her work in emotional intelligence, relationships and well-being. And she's a psychological sleuth who has helped the

[00:02:01] world come to a greater understanding of one particularly culty behavior that too many of us deal with in our daily lives, gaslighting. And fun fact, she actually coined the phrase the gaslight effect. And yes, of course we know that gaslight has its roots in that Ingrid

[00:02:18] Bergman movie of the same name about the guy who tries to drive his lady crazy. But Dr. Stern is literally why we even care in the context of this cult awareness podcast. Okay? Okay. Good talk. In our first season, our dear friend and cult recovery counselor,

[00:02:32] Dan Shaw covered this topic in her episode on the traumatizing narcissist because gaslighting really is the narc's favorite distortion strategy. We've experienced that firsthand, haven't we Sarah? And we've touched on gaslighting again and again on the show because it

[00:02:45] tracks. It is straight out of the playbook of so many culty charismatic leaders and coercive fuckwads. Fuckwads. Okay. But in a world awash and misinformation where even 10 year old boys use the term to thwart consequences, words can lose their power and meaning. To

[00:03:01] confuse matters like liars that would have you believe that everyone is lying to them, gaslighters often claim you're the one doing the gaslighting. So what in the ever loving fuck are you supposed to do when that happens? So we're going full CSI on gaslighting today to

[00:03:14] dissect it again with the expert who wrote the book on it, several books actually. Check out her super informative titles, The Gaslight Effect and the Gaslight Effect Recovery Guide. If you want an informal degree in it from the real deal, just don't use the knowledge for evil.

[00:03:28] Promise? Just kidding. We know you would never. All right, a little bit culty listeners. Let's do this. Here's our chat with Dr. Robin Stern. Welcome Robin Stern to a little bit culty. Thank you very much, Sarah and Nippy. I am really

[00:03:53] honored to be here. I'm so looking forward. Awesome. Us too. And I feel like it's long overdue. Thank you so much for sending us your book. Well, thank you. Thank you for your kindness and for the invitation. And I'm glad that you like it.

[00:04:06] And I'm trying to remember, was it somebody who connected us originally or how did we find each other? It's been a while, so I don't remember. I don't remember, but I remember being very excited about it when it happened.

[00:04:17] Said these are the people I really need to speak to. Yes. I couldn't agree more. And I know you've done a lot of press and a lot of podcasts to get your message out there. But I just think it's so wild that this term,

[00:04:28] gaslight, has become so much part of the zeitgeist. And you're the one who coined the phrase, the gaslight effect. That's amazing. Can't have a cult without gaslighting. Right? I totally agree. And what is amazing is how popular and how

[00:04:45] stunningly sad it is that it is so popular right now. When I first wrote my book in 2007, it was about romantic relationships. And I focused there, stayed in that lane. I mean, I know you've had one, but that's not what we're here to talk about or at least

[00:05:01] not to focus on or are in one, I should say. Your marriage after all these years, but certainly starting as a romance within a cult is quite unusual. But I was definitely in that lane and it wasn't until basically the run up to the election between 2016 and

[00:05:20] 2018 where everyone was saying, well, is Donald Trump a gaslighter? So he was my best marketing for the term gaslight effect. And my book was reprinted. And then after some time, my book was asked to be reprinted, but I decided to make a workbook instead of

[00:05:39] just a straight out gaslight effect. What is it? What are the types of gaslighting? What are the stages of gaslighting? How to get out of it? How do you get in it? And so recently in the last couple of years have written the workbook. Amazing.

[00:05:51] So that people all over can take their space and time to work through their relationships if they recognize that it may be a gaslighting relationship. Amazing. Well, we want to get into all that, but let's just rewind a little bit for those who... Sure.

[00:06:06] I mean, we've been talking about this from day one of our podcasts and we're 130 episodes in, I think by the time this drops, or 40 maybe. And we've defined it, I think, but probably not as well as you can define it. It's like a spectrum almost.

[00:06:20] Well, it's very interesting that you say that because right now I'm engaged in some research really to delineate the different levels, if you will, of gaslighting along that spectrum from something that's mild to something that's soul-destroying.

[00:06:36] Because sometimes when I write about it or I speak about it, somebody will say, well, that's not gaslighting because it's too mild. Or that sounds like it's just bad behavior. But gaslighting has several hallmarks, if you will. So gaslighting is when somebody...

[00:06:53] It's an insidious type of emotional abuse. Repeated over time in a power relationship was really important. Repeated over time within a relationship where one person has power. The person in power seeks to undermine your reality, your character. And sometimes

[00:07:15] leads you to second-guess yourself to the point where you feel like you're going crazy. So there the gaslighter is seeking to sow seeds of doubt by pivoting, by insisting that their reality is the reality. And moving the conversation from taking

[00:07:31] responsibility or answering your question or even seeing, agreeing about what's real out there to blaming you, deflecting responsibility and telling you no, your perceptions are not accurate. And in fact, there's something wrong with you. So does that sound like how people get into a cult?

[00:07:50] Yeah. Well, we're obviously hearing this from the perspective of how it gets talked about mostly right now, which is in relationships and then politics, which we can talk about later. But obviously, on a little bit culty, we're thinking about how all of this was done

[00:08:04] to us and pretty much every survivor we've ever spoken to. And I think it's really important also for people to understand where it comes from. Can you speak a little bit to where you got the term from in the film and originally the play?

[00:08:18] Sure. So the term gaslight effect is mine based on what I saw was the impact of gaslighting over time and the patients I was treating. But gaslighting, the term gaslight comes from originally a play in 1938 by Patrick Hamilton that was made into a very popular movie in 1944,

[00:08:40] Gaslight starring Ingrid Bergman and Charles Boye, where the diabolical husband takes advantage of his adoring wife who puts him on a pedestal and loves him and follows his every word. And the diabolical husband is trying to, we know as the audience, steal her family jewels.

[00:09:00] But what she believes is that he's just loving her and yet he keeps telling her things about herself that initially she says, but don't be silly. No, I'm not forgetful. That's just silly. This is

[00:09:14] the way I would describe it in the movie, watching the movie. I think she might even say, don't be silly. No, really? I'm not forgetful. And yet in the movie in about seven minutes and in

[00:09:24] real life it could be seven days or seven months you see her devolve from this strong, confident shore of herself and her mind woman to really second guessing herself and beginning to think

[00:09:41] maybe he's right, maybe I am forgetful. And of course in the intervening time in the movie he is stealing the brooch that he gave her as a gift and he said, I'm going to put this in here.

[00:09:52] You can't wear it today because it's broken so let's just save it in here. And then she'll say, okay of course you remember I'm putting it in your bag and she would say of course I remember.

[00:10:03] And I think she did say don't be silly. And then of course he steals it out of the bag and then she's looking for it and she becomes frantic and she becomes exhausted from being

[00:10:14] frantic and at the end of that scene she says, Gregory just his name in the movie I lost it maybe you're right. So she starts to doubt her own reality and would she orchestrate it?

[00:10:25] Exactly. Okay. Yes he orchestrated the whole thing. And in real life many people are not quite that diabolical. They're not out to steal your jewels but they are out to insist their goal is to have the power in the relationship to insist on their reality to make

[00:10:42] sure that your reality is their reality and you're joining them. And I would imagine that I really want to hear about your experience and I know this is your podcast and you're asking me

[00:10:53] but I really want to hear about what happened and how you were intruded into this relationship with this power figure. Absolutely. We're also to solicit ourselves happy to come on yours to go

[00:11:06] into some of those details. I'm sure we will some people say we talk too much in our podcast so we try not to but it's hard to not relate these things to our experiences. Well I mean it is our

[00:11:16] experience that is our lane but in the Gaslight movie it is a real insidious like the person has mal intent. The intent to deceive. The intent to deceive and there's a difference and I think

[00:11:29] most of our audience aren't people that have insidious intent if they're listening to our podcast but there's certainly things that I've recognized in your book as like I've for sure done that behavior. Right and I think more like make my first couple of relationships where I just

[00:11:44] was not strong enough emotionally to look at something so I deflected and made it the other person and then when the relationship ended I would argue a little emotionally more mature looked back and was like that was not cool behavior because I kind of knew I was wrong

[00:12:02] and wasn't strong enough to admit I was wrong and I think one of the things we talked about in your book is a lot of times it's men that are doing this to women because I just want

[00:12:12] to have a persona of strength and me admitting weakness at that point would conflict with my ego so then I quote Gaslight the person to deny it and I don't think I had insidious intent other

[00:12:24] than I just wanted to fortify myself image to the person that you know so I think what are the distinctions between that and how do you think that sets up in our culture like where

[00:12:33] it's a lot of men doing would you say that it's a lot of men doing it to women predominantly well I would say yes certainly in my own experience as a therapist I've seen more women come in to

[00:12:45] talk about their gaslighting partners but before I go into that I want to thank you and say that I love that you're telling your listening audience that you were gaslighting people I didn't know

[00:12:57] I was doing that and you couldn't have said it better than to describe that at a time where you were uncomfortable or you couldn't say your feelings or you were destabilized yeah that you

[00:13:11] moved into gaslighting there's only thing I knew how to do as a way of managing the moment as a way of reestablishing your sense of self and your sense of power in that in that moment and

[00:13:21] the reason that I'm calling that out in this way is that people say to me all the time are some men just born gaslighters the answer is no they're not born gaslighters it's a socially

[00:13:33] learned behavior strategy and either you saw somebody doing it you were a target of someone doing it or a victim of someone doing it to you or you just happen into it because at the moment

[00:13:46] you can't take responsibility you don't want to admit something you feel like you're on the spot and it's much easier to say what's the matter with you you're so paranoid or like what's wrong with you

[00:13:56] you're so sensitive and then of course your gaslight tea partner walks away forgetting about what she just asked you about or accused you of or worried about and is now thinking oh my

[00:14:07] god I'm so sensitive sensitive and needy that's me a needy you're so needy what's your problem and that's the truth is that I am needy good for you and we've just come out of a cult also where

[00:14:19] like we're not supposed to have needs so expressing them has been very difficult both of us expressing needs to each other has been very difficult well it was difficult before I was in a cult

[00:14:29] the times where I've recognized oh I think I was gaslighting I guess my primitive term was I was being a little bit of a dick but basically I would feel weak and vulnerable

[00:14:38] and a show of strength was to deny the reality of what was going on and make it about the other person or something to deflect me from looking at what I kind of was recognizing it as true but didn't

[00:14:49] want to own on the spot I guess and so I think to answer your earlier question or at least to begin to I think a lot of men need to have that ideal ideal self out front yeah of strength

[00:15:02] like you're strong and you don't like being vulnerable it's kind of icky and other people may think it's weak and vulnerability means showing your insides to something right you have to really feel psychologically safe and if you haven't grown up feeling like experiencing psychological

[00:15:19] safety and knowing how to maneuver when you feel at the edges of that if you're losing it it's hard to step into that so what happens if things go wrong so it makes sense people

[00:15:30] kids and adults too come to their defensive behaviors because we're smart we don't want to get hurt we want to be self-protective right they're not always the most helpful obviously and I would never use the term you did like behaving like a dick we're gonna say that but

[00:15:47] it's certainly my words of course but it's certainly not pro relationship and isn't also doesn't really convey any information it doesn't help you to really name what you were doing right and so that you couldn't do something about it this podcast wouldn't happen without

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[00:18:30] so back to you for a sec here robin or do you call you dr stern what do you prefer definitely robin okay just making sure okay so you wrote this book you coin this phrase it gets

[00:18:41] popularity we've talked about it a lot on a little bit culty and we repeat it all the time lots of intelligent people strong people fall prey to gaslighting even those who think they're immune to it like cults is there a particular things that might make people more vulnerable

[00:18:55] or being susceptible to gaslighting in terms of personality types so not in terms of personality types no i mean anyone in any personality type with any personality type can be vulnerable to

[00:19:08] gaslight but if you have a hard time if your partner doesn't agree with you or if you have a hard time walking away from a conversation unless your partner agrees with you if you like to please

[00:19:21] if you are sensitive and you have been socialized or brought up to believe that it's important to step into somebody else's shoes and see it from their perspective certainly i learned that i mean

[00:19:34] that's like empathy that's the best thing in the world to be empathic in a relationship right but when you get stuck standing in someone else's shoes and you forget you have your own shoes

[00:19:45] you can really be in trouble and that's what happens very often when you take on the other perspective you see even in the examples earlier i said somebody says something to you and and

[00:19:55] you say well no you're just too sensitive and then you start to take on that other perspective i can see why he says that or he you know you're so needy oh my god you're so needy

[00:20:05] and you're thinking i am needy no and so you're seeing it now from his perspective that needy is not a good thing maybe needy is a great thing maybe needy means i know what's going to make me feel

[00:20:17] whole what's going to keep me connected to you what's going to help me trust you and if i'm needy and and you can address that you can give me some of what i need then i can give you some of what

[00:20:27] you need to you can be needy too it has such a bad reputation when you say it in the way you said right because it's also it's a criticism of the person's character yeah there's something

[00:20:36] wrong with you well yet they turn needy into a bad thing yeah so i think that it's hard because we as women are socialized to be nice be kind and importantly one of the ways that people become

[00:20:51] vulnerable is learning to accommodate so accommodating is a good thing right your parents want to go somewhere you don't feel like going you accommodate your kid your parents have a

[00:21:00] strong opinion you may differ but if you don't want to upset the dinner table that was in my house so i accommodate and suddenly then in a relationship accommodating doesn't it doesn't raise red flags

[00:21:13] it's just it feels normal you're compromising a little bit yeah but when you are accommodating to the point where too much of yourself is being lost then you're in trouble and we call that pathological accommodation it's a heavy-handed term but it really means giving

[00:21:33] up yourself and giving over to someone else so if you're vulnerable to doing that because it seems like that's the way to get people to like you that's the way you keep relationships right yeah i would imagine there's a downside to you changing the dynamic of how the

[00:21:49] relationship was formed as somebody who is yes an accommodator and specifically in next game they call that like me disease except when you're accommodating to them well that's the thing as i did i did accommodate there's a lot of things that were that were inconsistent like tenants

[00:22:03] like our whole goal here is to teach you to not be dependent i think except be dependent on them you know and to evolve my like me patterns but everything i did was to please not everything

[00:22:13] but a large part of us to please the leadership and one of the things that you said the term urge to merge i was like oh that's totally it and even when nippy and i argue and

[00:22:23] we're not on the same page i can't walk away i can't go to bed angry because i want to heal the rupture or whatever like i want to have the urge to merge is that part of the

[00:22:32] that pattern as well well it's it's a term that i use just because in psychoanalytic growing up theory the term merging has a particular meaning that is different than than what i meant so it's really more about merging personalities this is not about that

[00:22:50] this is more about you feel like you can't stand it unless you're joined with your person you can't stand it if they have like a bad view of you people one of the places that it's the hardest to walk

[00:23:03] away or one of the times it's hardest to walk away in a gaslighting dynamic is when somebody saying you're so needy and you're defending yourself well i am because or i know i'm not because or

[00:23:16] oh my god you're gonna ask me that again you're so paranoid i'm not paranoid but you said this and walking away when you know that nippy or someone else knows that their partner is thinking badly of

[00:23:29] them right or doesn't really agree with what they're saying about themselves it's very hard it's like ripping yourself apart right and people have a very tough time doing it years

[00:23:42] can take years for someone to say that's the way you see it i see it differently just that simple can't do it because you can't stand it right and so if you've lived it you know what i'm talking

[00:23:55] about the urge to merge is really to be aligned to like be those two people holding hands looking at the world together and you know having one vision except the one vision is usually his vision

[00:24:09] right it does still seem related in my mind is that's part of the like me because if you like me then we're merged so it's sort of it's connected but i can see how it could also be separate for

[00:24:19] depending on the person's issues yeah it's more like i want you to like me i need you to like me right yeah and if you like me then we're connected in that yeah i joined you you joined

[00:24:31] me way but sometimes it's about actually joining their opinion in order for them to like you so if the like me is he's going to like you if you agree that you're needy you know what honey i'm

[00:24:44] needy that may not even be enough because it has to be you know what honey i'm needy and that's a bad thing because that's the way he said it to you perhaps right so there's an obedience to his narrative

[00:24:55] exactly right that he's demanding a succumbing yeah i'm popping in and out of in my mind relationship examples and then cult examples and i'm imagining that for most of the time when

[00:25:04] we join the cult there is the initial merging there is the oh we're so aligned there's the love bombing there's everything's so peachy and roses and then why does the love bombing if you don't

[00:25:15] mind my asking what is the love bombing from your cult leader just making like the leadership at least i'll speak for myself making me feel special saying that i was you know so perfect

[00:25:26] for this kind of a role i'm i'm the perfect candidate i'm really good at blah blah blah i'm so blah blah like just makes me special they made me feel special lifting you yeah lifting you

[00:25:37] your special bringing me into the fold like kind of bringing me right like i went from being a student to being i wasn't really part of the inner circle but like hanging out with upper ranks right away

[00:25:46] you know a lot of gold stars yeah and basic needs like it's a really basic need to feel seen and heard like you belong you know like you matter that's what it was for me and then

[00:25:57] so when the gas lighting starts any complaint or any concern again the get gets flipped back we're struggling to get back to that initial high of the merged goodness or whatever you want to call

[00:26:08] it that's so interesting because i thought you were going to say when the gas lighting starts we struggled to get back to the me i was before i was on that high no but you can't do that

[00:26:19] till you're naming the gas lighting which isn't happening when you're in the gas lighting of course i'm just thinking about as we're having this conversation and sarah is talking about

[00:26:27] needs and stuff like that we had modules one of them was called honesty and disclosure and it went into your fears needs and desires and even asking the question okay look i'm just gonna make a hypothetical

[00:26:37] sarah is going in there and saying she feels needy if i don't get alignment say with this person the question of well what's the worst thing that can happen right automatically frames it

[00:26:48] is though that you are you are you are needy and then there's a downside to you not getting what you want right so it frames it in a way of like okay it's your issue now we're talking about

[00:26:58] your issue and we're not addressing the fact that someone called you needy and that's lost in the weeds of all this psycho babble about like sarah's needs for really what might be legitimate and most likely is legitimate so it takes legitimate human dynamics concerns and minimizes them

[00:27:15] and makes them your issues so now you're walking around minimizing things that are probably very dear to you your dreams your goals your needs your desires and you've made them bad

[00:27:26] and you've put them in a framework of this is bad and but that's who you are so in a lot of ways who you are becomes bad and who you are is an issue who you are is an issue and the other

[00:27:38] thing that's lost in there is that if you are saying to somebody if somebody accuses you of being needy and then you say you know I am needy then you're being vulnerable like taking a step

[00:27:50] into intimacy right trying to have that bond with the person but it doesn't work out and so that in and of itself is crazy making because when you share something of yourself you want that to be

[00:28:03] received in a way where you you have the permission to have yes yeah yes and I think also from day one we're agreeing we didn't know this agreeing to let them gaslight us and then

[00:28:15] when I'm saying it like this day one they say you're going to be uncomfortable here we're going to talk about things that are really going to challenge your belief system and we don't have the distinction

[00:28:24] between I'm uncomfortable it's time to get the fuck out versus I'm comfortable because there's pointing to an issue that I need to look at so for example the sashes my first

[00:28:32] take on the sashes I don't like the sashes I think they're tacky I don't want to wear them excuse me I have an issue with the sashes okay and it's very gentle it's not mean it's

[00:28:40] okay so what's you know a lot of people have an issue with the sashes when they have like authority issues like maybe something happened with the teacher or parent any discomfort internally

[00:28:49] is I have a disintegration in other words I have a belief system that's not aligned with reality which is why I don't like the sashes so any problem I have with anything whether it's the

[00:29:00] sashes calling him vanguard not getting paid on time whatever a complaint I may have what you're saying is so important and I and I find myself like almost smiling because it's so absurd like now to

[00:29:13] look back and see what they did but it's so not funny at the time no because they're really they're gaslighting you I'll share my own story person who would happen with won't be listening

[00:29:23] to this because he's been gone for many years passed away not has in a breakup he wasn't a boyfriend he was a friend and we had talked about going into a business together and this

[00:29:32] is many years ago and we were both in a learning environment where there was a very charismatic figure in that learning environment we were studying psychoanalysis psychotherapy and it was a culty kind of feeling but not nothing further than just everybody thought what this guy said

[00:29:49] was amazing and so being vulnerable and being open with your feelings was of course part of our training so this guy who was also in the training I said I heard what you're doing and I

[00:30:00] would like to open this part-time business and I'd like you to work with me and I like to have my conversations about business you know sitting on the couch together and I said well that doesn't

[00:30:11] sound like a business meeting to me that sounds like we're gonna snuggle up and no thank you you're great and I want to do this business but I'm not into it you're afraid of it aren't

[00:30:20] you oh wow and I said well it does make me uncomfortable but that's not what I why I don't want to do it you want to talk about why you're so afraid of it like what's gonna happen kick

[00:30:30] him in the balls and realize that we did talk about it and it was fine and we didn't go into business together of course but we didn't remain friends but that moment was a defining moment

[00:30:42] along my own pathway to writing a book about gas that's so great that's such a great example and next to him it would be oh so what's the fear do you think very subtle remember

[00:30:52] it's dismantling your objections to yeah it's dismantling the objection and in that tone of voice yeah right so nobody's trying to intimidate you right they're just trying to help you having a conversation and yeah I hope you yeah right it's so kind for them to ask you how

[00:31:05] you're feeling like what's behind that fear let's talk about it also there's a position of authority too that's being yielded to so it can also if someone's afraid to say no to the person because they fear that the power that they have it's another asset they're abusing

[00:31:18] to get you to be obedient to join them yeah we could tell you all sorts of stories but I want to learn the most from you right now and I promise will come on your podcast if you

[00:31:26] want and tell you all the shitty ways we were gaslit and also gaslit other people just so you know like we totally did it to others as we were trained to so obediently yeah but

[00:31:36] see you this for a second can you just define the different stages I think that's really important and that was something I was not aware of even though I thought I was an expert in understanding this process what are the different stages of disbelief defense

[00:31:46] the first stage that I called disbelief is when I was describing in the movie gaslight between Ingrid Bergman Charles Boyer where he says well don't forget it you know you have been very forgetful lately and she thinks that's silly so it's kind of a one-off comment

[00:32:02] that could cause you to take a step back and say am I forgetful no I'm not forgetful or maybe it doesn't even cause you to take a step back because you know for short you're

[00:32:12] not forgetful but it happens once maybe it happens some time later on and you are in your own reality so that's disbelief the second stage which I call defense is characterized by a lot of

[00:32:27] defending yourself and doing that thing we were just talking about but I'm not this or I am this and somebody says something to you and you feel yourself defensive like you're so paranoid you

[00:32:39] say to your you say to Nippy you know where have you been like I've been trying to reach you and he never answers the question but he says you're so paranoid what's your problem

[00:32:47] and you are I'm not paranoid I just want to get in touch with you there you go again you know now you're keeping on it you know why you what's your problem what's hard about that is that

[00:32:57] it's very sticky most of the people that I see in my practice are in that stage so it moves from stage one to stage two really with frequency so stage one is this little one off and then it's

[00:33:10] not a one and then the person is saying it constantly to you like my patients who are walking down the street together in her neighborhood I tell the story a lot because it's so amazing in its impact

[00:33:23] on someone's behavior they were walking down the street and he says I know how to solve our fighting because they were fighting all the time because she was very friendly and would

[00:33:32] say hello to people as she would greet them said why don't you look at the sidewalk while we're walking down the street that way we don't have to have these fights because you won't be greeted by

[00:33:43] people you won't be responding I won't see your flirting because you know you're flirting don't you and everything will be fine and so the first time he said it she said don't be ridiculous

[00:33:53] like first of all I'm not flirting and stop it and then the next time he said it she said I'm not flirting they got into back and forth and then the next time she said it she thought well

[00:34:05] maybe he's right maybe I am flirting and maybe I should look down at the sidewalk while I'm walking down the street and she came to my office sometime later when he up the ante or up the ask and he

[00:34:18] said to her and when we get into the restaurant I want you to always take the seat that faces the wall because that way we have each other's undivided attention and you won't be distracted by

[00:34:28] having to flirt with remember you flirt with the people who approach you and she said you know he's right because Dr. Sturm we we aren't fighting anymore so actually he's right we were doing this

[00:34:41] thing and now we're not fighting and so he's right but something doesn't feel right about she would say right but she was really locked into that defending herself I'm not flirting let me try to find a solution for this and really at the same time beginning to think

[00:35:00] maybe he's right because after all his solutions are working so that's how she went from beginning of stage two to the end of stage two and it's obviously we're human beings it's not that

[00:35:10] clearly defined but it is a gradation a continuum if you will and then stage three which is much more serious we're really having trouble making decisions on your own where you aren't really allowed to nor do you let yourself nor do you come to feeling joy

[00:35:30] on your own everything is legislated by your gas lighter that you feel good when you please him and there that your independent self can't even contact your independent self anymore

[00:35:43] and you are not your same self you were when you went into that relationship and when I think about as I'm talking and I'm thinking about cults thinking that's what happens right that that you lose

[00:35:56] yourself over to this greater good supposedly think that also happened to extreme level with the people who are in this inner circle who really gave themselves over to Keith and were you know

[00:36:08] his spiritual wife as well and I think ultimately is what saved Nippy and I is that we always had our foot outside the cult outside in reality and didn't fully move there or give up everything

[00:36:19] to be a part of that so we had a little bit of like joy and reality you know what I mean what was telling her before it's like when you're in it you don't have context with any other

[00:36:30] lifestyle outside we would leave it and go out and be like this is way more appealing than anything and all be in New York right so we just weren't in it in the same way right it felt like

[00:36:40] more of a corporate atmosphere that gas lit you into obedience and we've talked to women who were with him who've said they didn't realize how depressed and lost and upset they were we did well we could

[00:36:51] tell by looking at them that they were not happy but when they got out like inner inner inner circle women who are now no longer believers and they were so grateful to us they thought that their

[00:37:01] upset was because they weren't doing the work you know and they weren't using the tools not that they'd been gas lit and demoralized and have their entire identity uprooted by this pattern. For more background on what brought us here check out my page turning memoir it's called

[00:37:19] scarred the true story of how I escaped Maxim the cult that bound my life it's available on amazon audible and at most bookstores and if you want to see that story in streaming form

[00:37:29] you can watch both seasons of the vow on HBO this episode is sponsored by better help what are your self-care non-negotiables maybe you never skip leg day or never miss yoga maybe it's getting eight hours of sleep i mean that's my personal and everyone's dream isn't it

[00:37:48] well i definitely have some non-negotiables like i'm in vancouver right now and i'm spending literally as much time as i can outside of nature hashtag cold pools hashtag crushing it nature is a non-negotiable not enough time the fresh air and the trees around me and i

[00:38:01] start to feel not great not myself not grounded therapy day is a bit like my nature walks i try to not miss it and i know i'm just gonna feel so much better all around if i make it a priority

[00:38:11] i get so much out of it it helps me put my worries and anxieties in their rightful place and helps me clear my mind so i can focus on what i really need and sometimes what i don't

[00:38:19] need like i don't need to be overbooking myself just because i hate to say no to people you know what i mean thanks therapy thanks for helping me see that and if you're thinking of starting

[00:38:27] therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge look even when we know what

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[00:39:25] combat hunger in our local communities at macy's break times over people let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty it's a good one there's a great example i've watched the

[00:39:40] val one time i don't know if i'm ever really going to watch it again but i got the extent of how keith gaslet people when mark confronted him and said the women look like they're

[00:39:50] zombies and they did robin they when we would go there they looked like they were disconnected vacant it was a bizarre thing we always felt i i actually told jokes is like it feels like we're

[00:40:00] going to albany and it looks like every time i feel like we're going there going to a funeral and i would have conversations i would have corya that's right i would have conversations with

[00:40:07] mark about it mark would be like yeah they look like zombies and in the val there's an audio clip where mark says to keith the women kind of look like zombies and keith immediately goes

[00:40:18] you know there's a harvard study that says when people start saying that people look like zombies that the actual person is the who sees and he started to gaslight mark by referencing a harvard

[00:40:29] study to him and when i saw that when i heard that i go oh my god is that how it was so quick so quick how he had something in the chamber to gaslight mark into his observations being

[00:40:43] him and not actually what he was seeing in reality it was astonishing i don't know that must have been another defining moment for you it was good well i'd never seen that side of

[00:40:52] keith in that capacity because in his inner circle he was more overt with it but externally with the persona that he had when he gave his forms he was weird and all that stuff but he was more

[00:41:03] insidious around the people that he knew he could be insidious with i found yes that's when i had the appropriate fear around who he was if that makes sense yeah yes it makes a lot of sense

[00:41:16] you know when people would come into my office years ago and they would have black and blue marks or they would talk about how their heart was cursed and scream at them it was easy for them

[00:41:29] to say he did it but when they just had this weird feeling of something is wrong and i'm uncomfortable and i'm just losing my sense of self and they always would say what's wrong with me

[00:41:43] that would be us in the call what's wrong with me like there's any any type of we were our issues yeah and we were issued we were conditioned to be okay and that's that's a

[00:41:55] tenet of taking responsibility sometimes what am i doing to participate in it right that's so fascinating because that's such a setup for you to be accommodating to his gaslighting that is like a brilliant setup it really is it's closed loop system of logic yes you can never

[00:42:13] get out of it exactly and also the use of the term projection was a major a major tool of gaslighting because of all these i mean all of them not just keith we see it in like multiple anytime

[00:42:25] when there's like a therapy based element to the group a large group awareness training or a goal setting program and you're trying to express a concern that's negative it could always be like

[00:42:36] well that's just your projection always and you're like what you might want to look at why you're projecting such negative intent on somebody yeah yeah with that face yeah yeah exactly no i

[00:42:47] totally get it i i interviewed someone who said to me you know my husband is starting to use my meditation and mindfulness strategies against me exactly in that way may need to want you may

[00:43:00] want to sit a little bit longer today you know you might want to take a look at what's coming up for you in your meditation you know i think that's you i think that's your projection you know with

[00:43:10] that smile with that knowing smile right if that's up to anything that's exactly what that's exactly what i do to sarah i do it as a joke i'm saying i want to go sit with yourself a little bit longer

[00:43:23] it's like fuck you it is a it is a character that he plays this sort of gas lighting no the best was you're doing great you know you're right where you're supposed to be and want you

[00:43:34] go ahead and when nippy and i are getting heated one of our favorite things to do is to jokingly weaponize the tools of nexium at each other and it kind of most the time burst the tension

[00:43:51] diffuses it diffuses it sometimes it doesn't go well you know what i mean like it's just a little too close to him but most of the time it's like you know there was a thought terminating cliche

[00:44:03] in nexium where if you were to bring something up in addition to saying like you might want to look at that it'd be like well that's just your life issue so what do you say to that

[00:44:15] you got to work on your life issue you got to go right yeah one of the things to getting one of the stripes and one of the sashes was to write up your life issue like this is my wound

[00:44:24] and this is how it plays out and this is how i do it and this is what i do to cover it up and then you have to go give it to your coach and they'd have to analyze whether you understood

[00:44:32] your life issue or not it was arbitrary which of course you never did and you had to keep rewriting it and rewriting it and rewriting it and then once you passed it you had to

[00:44:39] write a plan to evolve your life issue it's life issue blah blah blah what a joke what is your key piece of advice to staying gaslit free in relationships and in cults i would say other people

[00:44:51] who know you who can validate your reality who listen to you and aren't twisting your reality your integrity like standing in your integrity what do you really think taking space so that you can actually think about what you really think while you're listening to your gaslighter while

[00:45:10] you are in it it's really hard to sort that truth from distortion right writing down conversations so that you can see i said i asked him where were you and he said you're being so paranoid well

[00:45:25] actually maybe that's where the pivot occurred right so now you're not talking about what you want to be talking about now you're talking about some failing or something wrong with you

[00:45:35] or some accusation that he has so i think that's really important to write things down to keep track of things to notice what you're feeling i mean all my work at the Yale Center for emotional intelligence is about recognizing your feelings understanding where they're coming from

[00:45:52] labeling your feelings and once you can name it you contain it so there are two things one feelings are more important than right or wrong if you are feeling accused and attacked and undermined in a conversation it's not okay it doesn't matter who's right or wrong and usually

[00:46:08] it doesn't for that moment you take a step away get out of the power struggle and then figure it out another time and that's something you can say right like i love this part of your book it's so

[00:46:17] practical things you can say to avoid the right wrong debate you're right yeah i don't want to keep arguing about this you're right i don't want to be talked to you that way like that's

[00:46:26] those are great thank you i'd like to try to be as helpful as possible and as practical as possible on the ground so i would say another way to keep your life gaslight free is to pay

[00:46:38] attention to what you're feeling and also to equip yourself with sentin stems like that you know you're right and yet i don't want to continue this conversation we're going to have

[00:46:51] to agree to disagree just not liking the way i feel i'm gonna have a cup of tea now maybe we can talk about this later this conversation is getting very heated let's come back to it at

[00:47:00] another time we talked about this thing that you do here it is again let me know when you'd like to actually have a conversation about what happened last night or something like that so that whatever

[00:47:12] you feel you're comfortable in putting out there that is not going to put you in any danger make sure you're safe above everything else if you are going to confront your gaslighter if you're

[00:47:23] going to talk about it and be mindful of your own feelings and honor them so it's not just notice them i feel like crap i feel like crap every time i talk to this guy like every time i talk to him

[00:47:37] i'm thinking something wrong with me well that's not okay maybe it's gaslighting and if you think that the way you're being treated is not okay you're right it's not okay

[00:47:50] if you have to wonder is the way he's treating me okay or is it not okay it's not okay and that is something i think that's really important for especially for so many of our listeners

[00:48:01] are cult survivors is that they give over their power to the leadership or to the leader and so when they do terrible things they think well they must be doing it for a reason because

[00:48:12] they know so much or they have a direct line to god or whatever so they may feel this is not okay there's a lot of things i felt that weren't okay but i also was like but they know better

[00:48:21] so i call that the explanation trap okay so when someone mistreats you rather than thinking i don't like to be mistreated you're thinking well you know maybe their mother didn't treat them very well

[00:48:34] or maybe they didn't really learn how to treat women so i'm just going to let this go because how could i expect somebody who is brought up in that way to treat women well when they

[00:48:44] don't know the difference and so the explanation trap is very close to the empathy right i'm gonna say it sounds related stuck in somebody else's shoes but it's having this whole elaborate explanation

[00:48:55] i went out with this guy and he didn't call me for three weeks and then he called me was so excited he wanted to see me again and i went out with him and then the same thing happened and maybe

[00:49:03] he's an asshole when i don't get it well did you ever stop to think that maybe you don't like going out with people who don't who go out with you when you have a great time and don't call you

[00:49:14] for three weeks no because you're too busy trying to figure him out right and have an explanation because we like to make meaning out of our experiences we like to try to understand so we'll explain it to ourselves in a way that's digestible that allows us to continue

[00:49:31] succumbing to his needs and his modus operandi if you will and forgetting about what we really like and what we really need in a dating relationship or in a partnership now we've we've definitely noticed that therapy words like trauma traumatized gaslight narcissist are

[00:49:48] really prevalent in today's vernacular have you noticed this and what are the consequences to overusing these terms when the people don't understand so i noticed it and there is an article that i wrote it was exactly about this subject i think that on the one hand

[00:50:02] it is good that all these terms are being socialized because it means there's people are using them more often maybe they're will help with the stigma about mental health that there's always been continues to be honestly but it's not so good in that they're weaponized misunderstood it's not

[00:50:22] trauma if someone is a half hour late for dinner right you might experience it as a very big upset and if you've been traumatized by somebody not showing up maybe you have some PTSD from that

[00:50:36] other trauma and that's possible right i'm trying to think of an example that is obvious you know i'm traumatized that i didn't get the right nail color well no no maybe maybe that also triggers

[00:50:48] something from your past life or maybe you're just very upset and you're using the word because it gets attention it makes the point and gas lighting is one of those words now you're gas lighting me great conversation stopper great way to say to not respond

[00:51:04] and just to throw it back to the person it's gas lighting right isn't it can i say something about that because this is something i've talked about as a challenge in this new world with this

[00:51:15] being a common phrase and also post nexium especially when we first got out and we recognized that we'd been this had been done to us and we'd been doing it to other people

[00:51:24] and there came a weird spot where if somebody did say something that wasn't true i felt like i actually couldn't say anything other than thank you for telling me because if i said i actually don't

[00:51:36] think that's true then i felt like i'd be accused of gas lighting again do you know what i mean yes so i i felt kind of hogtied with that new awareness and then that's kind of like

[00:51:47] some of the things that we see happening politically and in certain spaces but you know there's a difference between having a disagreement even if you feel strongly about it and gas lighting so i may say of course you must get vaccinated like that is really important

[00:52:06] and you may say it's really important not to get vaccinated because this is just something that the pharmaceutical industry is pushing on us or i don't want the side effects of it and

[00:52:19] you can have a disagreement right but if i say to you first of all if i'm in a position of power and i say to you you must do this it's really important and i keep questioning you why aren't

[00:52:29] you doing this why aren't then it's a slippery slope to gas lighting or if i say to you you know anytime something comes up nippy that i think is important you don't want to do it

[00:52:40] you notice that about yourself you know something like that that is gas lighting so then i'm taking our disagreement and making it something that making the process of the disagreement something about your inability to agree with me or something wrong with you so that it's important to know

[00:52:58] that gas lighting is not the same as disagreeing it has that twist of my reality over your reality and there's something wrong with you and it also has the feature or the hallmark of

[00:53:13] being repeated over time where do you see it happening right now so let me just say i work at Yale University and we are never allowed to be political and so even at times where i might have

[00:53:26] seen certain behaviors in our leaders i was very comfortable saying well here's what gas lighting is here's what they did you decide right and so it's important and i also am not an expert in politics and in political leadership but i do know that there certainly are leaders

[00:53:47] and there are groups of people who do attempt in our world to change history do attempt to undermine the reality that others are living and i mean i'm happy to have that conversation with you

[00:54:02] offline sure but i think we are living in that gaslight culture right well okay so i agree with that and the one thing i want to make a distinction of is there's gas lighting and then there's

[00:54:13] flat out lying yes right and in the terms of a political person abusing their power they're not gaslighting you if they're just inventing inventing things to support their narrative necessarily where's the gaslighting come in well the gaslighting comes in if you don't believe them

[00:54:29] and you challenge them and then they say of course it happened yeah okay or of course it didn't happen okay or even worse when somebody in power lies to you and you find yourself gaslighting yourself

[00:54:44] i need to send you a copy of my book robin because i i do a lot of that in my memory share how i did that a lot in my memoir i would love to read your book we'll send it to you and

[00:54:54] you can decide if you want us on your pod i already know i do okay great i'd love i mean i feel like i'd love to have coffee with you oh yes i would do we we had so many other questions we didn't get

[00:55:05] to so maybe we could do we do sometimes like a live zoom q and a with our patreon audience so maybe we could dig in happy to and and i'll recommend the book and we can get started

[00:55:15] as a group and i really i really feel it's important get so tangible the tools in here to actually address what's happening in the moment and i i don't remember who we had on our our show

[00:55:25] that said gave us the the tool set when when specifically a narcissist is gaslighting you and coming at your character instead of defending saying your attempts to make me look bad are

[00:55:36] noted and just leaving it at that well one thing that i didn't write in my book is sometimes i will say to someone who is trying to gaslight me or suggest you say you just can't help yourself

[00:55:48] can you oh that's a good little dig can't help yourself can you yeah allow me i like what you say on your twitter which is name the behavior and the pattern and reclaim who

[00:56:01] you are and i think that that's really the message at least for so many of our listeners who are survivors of cults a course of control domestic abuse all these things that they've gone through

[00:56:11] and even for people who haven't who are just fans of the show and want some new tools for their tool belt i i cannot recommend this book more i'm going to finish it i'm going to finish it for when i come

[00:56:21] on your podcast so that we have more juicy nexium gaslighting stories because pretty much that's all that happened we were just gaslight for 12 years well and i think it's so important and so generous of you to share with the world what's happened to you and i really appreciate

[00:56:40] being here i'm honored really and i love having this back and forth with you it felt so natural and and could finish each other's sentences that's pretty wonderful we try not to do that and we

[00:56:52] know what it's like right so and that makes for a powerful conversation and to elevate this topic and just keep talking about it is just a gift to people so that they can name it and understand

[00:57:05] it and reclaim their reality so thank you sarah thank you thank you really appreciate it such an honor to have the og gaslighting effect creator on our show who knew i didn't know it's

[00:57:18] amazing thank you robin thank you so much bye like what you hear do you give us a rating review and subscribe on itunes every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there

[00:57:30] smash that subscribe button you know you want to well i super enjoyed that and i have breaking news that dr robin stern has invited nippy and i to her podcast called the gaslight effect podcast coming

[00:57:46] in 2024 i think what people need to know about gaslighting in general it's kind of like the adult version of i know you are but what am i kind of do you know what i mean it's kind of like

[00:57:55] no you're the crazy one no you're the crazy one you know it's like it can be weaponized and if you know anyone that's a victim of gaslighting or you feel like you've been a victim

[00:58:03] yourself i highly recommend her recovery guide it's very practical i would say it makes a great stocking stuff for but it's a little wide it's a little big go under the tree so thanks everybody

[00:58:14] for joining us here in a little bit culty hope that was helpful hope that was very helpful and we're going to work on getting dr robin stern over on our patreon for a live q and a in the

[00:58:24] new year and maybe some other goodies we should start like a gaslighting greatest hits with people like horrible gaslight stories oh god just go on social media i know it's actually true never mind take care everybody see you next time on a little bit culty

[00:58:40] seeking death to the depths of the ocean i'm hanging on to the weight of my love thanks for listening everyone we're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culty now to discuss this episode in the meantime dear listener please remember this podcast is solely

[00:59:09] for general informational educational and entertainment purposes it's not intended as a substitute for real medical legal or therapeutic advice for cult recovery resources and to learn more about seeking safely in this culty world check out a little bit culty dot com slash culty

[00:59:24] resources and don't miss sarah's ted talk called how cult literate are you great stuff a little bit culty is a trace 120 production executive produced by sarah edmondson and anthony nippy in collaboration with producer will reutherford at citizens of sound and our co-creator and show

[00:59:40] chaplain slash bodyguard jess temple tardy our show writer is holly zedra and our theme song cultivated is by john bryant