Greek Tragedies: Lucy Taylor on Campus Hazing

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical,

[00:00:04] or mental health advice.

[00:00:05] The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of

[00:00:09] the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business,

[00:00:13] individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:25] I'm Sarah Edmondson

[00:00:26] And I'm Anthony Air Quotes Nippy Ames

[00:00:28] And this is A Little Bit Culty

[00:00:32] A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:00:36] Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real cult stories told

[00:00:40] directly by the people who lived through them.

[00:00:43] Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:00:47] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty?

[00:00:50] You're already prime recruitment material

[00:00:52] You might even already be in a cult

[00:00:54] Oops, you better keep listening to Find Out

[00:00:57] Welcome to Season 6 of A Little Bit Culty

[00:00:59] Hey everybody, welcome back to A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:20] We're going to Greek life again

[00:01:22] We are welcoming Lucy Taylor back on the show to tell us about the latest developments

[00:01:27] on college campuses nationwide when it comes to the movement to abolish Greek life.

[00:01:32] If you haven't heard our first episode with her, definitely check it out.

[00:01:35] It'll be in our show notes.

[00:01:36] It's called My So-Called Greek Life

[00:01:38] Culty, culty, Greek life

[00:01:41] It's time for you to rethink your entire paradigm

[00:01:44] And if you are one of those proud Greek life alum and loved it, good for you, truly

[00:01:49] from the bottom of our hearts

[00:01:51] But if you really loved it that much, you should also maybe listen with an open

[00:01:55] mind and be part of rooting out some of its worst problems

[00:01:58] And evolving it the way the Greeks would

[00:02:00] Exactly

[00:02:01] So just to recap Lucy's story for you guys, as a first year student at the

[00:02:05] University of Maryland, Lucy welcomed the sisterhood and built-in community that

[00:02:09] Greek life promised.

[00:02:10] But after accepting a bid into a top tier sorority, she left after seven months

[00:02:14] inside a toxic stew of rampant sexual assault, slut-shaming, misogyny and racism.

[00:02:19] Lucy shared her experience in Season 1 of her podcast, Snapped.

[00:02:22] And after an outpouring of responses, she's been continuing to use the

[00:02:25] series to help other former sorority and fraternity members share their

[00:02:29] all-too-similar and all-too-horrific stories.

[00:02:31] Think Penn State.

[00:02:33] She's back with us now in this episode to cover what's happened since we first

[00:02:37] had her on the show, and in particular to discuss a horrible story

[00:02:41] out of a well-known university and why she wants you to support the Stop

[00:02:45] Campus Hazing Act.

[00:02:46] Please be warned that this episode gets into gritty territory and listening

[00:02:50] to conversations like this can be triggering.

[00:02:53] So please, dear listeners, listen with care.

[00:02:56] Here's our interview with Lucy Taylor.

[00:03:11] How are you doing?

[00:03:12] How is Lucy doing?

[00:03:15] Lucy is doing well.

[00:03:17] I just got back from Maryland.

[00:03:19] I went on a mini press tour where I spoke with different media outlets

[00:03:24] about the current shutdown at UMD.

[00:03:27] How do you feel about that?

[00:03:28] I feel excited because the topic has become relevant again.

[00:03:34] I know in 2020, the Abolish Greek Life movement was very relevant,

[00:03:38] but it really died down since then.

[00:03:41] And so I think that this has been a good opportunity to start speaking up in the media

[00:03:49] and if they're going to give me a platform, I'll use it.

[00:03:52] Good for you.

[00:03:53] Are you allowed to say what happened?

[00:03:54] Do they know yet what happened?

[00:03:55] I know that everything's shut down, but they weren't saying why.

[00:03:57] Yeah.

[00:03:58] So they're not saying why yet.

[00:04:01] There's of course rumors circling around.

[00:04:04] People have DMed me different things.

[00:04:06] The biggest rumor, and again this is just a rumor, not confirmed.

[00:04:12] But the rumor that everyone's saying is that someone was forced to eat shit.

[00:04:19] So in a frat, which I definitely believe because frats love to make people eat things.

[00:04:29] And I wouldn't be surprised if they just got a little more creative with it.

[00:04:34] But the university did say that it wasn't one specific incident that led to this shutdown.

[00:04:39] So who knows really what it is, but I wish that they were being more transparent about it.

[00:04:45] Well we were really excited because so much of the people's advocacy that occurs after

[00:04:50] people wake up and leave organizations or institutions or groups or cults or

[00:04:55] sororities or whatever is there's advocacy in the not much action.

[00:04:59] And I know that's been a big part of your fight.

[00:05:00] So what's it feel like to see this happening right now?

[00:05:04] It's interesting to see this happening right now because I've never seen the university or

[00:05:11] any university that I've heard of.

[00:05:13] I've never seen them take this action where they shut them all down.

[00:05:17] Usually they just will suspend one frat or sorority at a time, but to shut the whole

[00:05:24] white Greek life system down is a new tactic.

[00:05:28] But I also am fearful because I don't trust that the university will get

[00:05:37] answers because these organizations will protect each other at all costs and the members will

[00:05:44] protect each other at all costs. And so I don't know how truthful they'll be in this investigation.

[00:05:50] And I feel as though in a month or two it'll be like one or two frats were kicked off and then

[00:05:58] it's business as usual. So there definitely is this feeling of I don't really trust what's going

[00:06:05] out. What's gonna happen?

[00:06:07] Also there's a feeling of we've been here before with the fraternities, right?

[00:06:11] And our last step is remember some of our conversations.

[00:06:13] I remember this going on when I was in college and the fraternity structure was being threatened

[00:06:18] maybe a little earthquake, but they've come back and restored the traditional paradigm.

[00:06:24] And I guess this might be the lip service to the abuse, but not necessarily overall change.

[00:06:29] I know in our last interviews too I asked you if there's any hope for the Greek life

[00:06:33] and you don't believe there is and you don't think this is going to do much.

[00:06:36] What progress do you think ultimately is going to come from this?

[00:06:39] And do you think it's just going to be the same?

[00:06:41] Like we'll be here again in 20 years.

[00:06:43] Yeah, absolutely. I mean people have been trying to reform this system for years and

[00:06:47] years. There's been these waves of pushback, but then it goes away because students cycle through,

[00:06:56] they get a new batch of freshmen and the cycle continues. So yeah, I really don't see

[00:07:03] much progress happening. I think that if reform was possible we wouldn't be here right now.

[00:07:10] And I think that they'll probably, you know, one thing they did in the past has been to change

[00:07:19] pledge master to new member educator. Change the wording on things or say like, oh it's no longer

[00:07:26] called pledging, it's now called new member education. They do these little things to make

[00:07:32] it seem like reform is happening and change is happening and these are now rebranded

[00:07:37] organizations. Some might even become alcohol free or will say that they are alcohol free,

[00:07:45] but I just want to remind everyone that the frat that ended up killing Tim Piazza out of

[00:07:53] negligence was a so-called reformed fraternity and they were allegedly alcohol free and they

[00:08:00] had one chapter of the year. So I really just don't think reform is possible.

[00:08:07] And for those listening who are new to this podcast, please do listen to our episode about

[00:08:13] Tim Piazza and also our initial episode with Lucy that will encapsulate a lot of those details.

[00:08:20] Let's go back just to bring our listeners up to speed. In your podcast, SNAPT,

[00:08:25] which delves into the dark realities of fraternity hazing, particularly in episodes like

[00:08:30] the H word part one and two, what initially inspired you to shine a spotlight on the

[00:08:34] issue of hazing specifically? Yeah. So at the beginning of the interview journey,

[00:08:41] I would interview anyone who I could get. I wasn't really looking for anything specific. I was just

[00:08:47] like, okay, who's going to talk because it's hard to get people to talk anyway. And one of my first

[00:08:52] interviews was with a fraternity president who was trying to get hazing removed from his chapter

[00:09:00] and he was not able to do so. His chapter pushed back and wanted to keep hazing as part of their

[00:09:08] model. And a few weeks after our interview, he retracted his interview and said he actually doesn't

[00:09:17] want this out there. Even though he's anonymous in it, he really just does not want to get

[00:09:22] his frat into trouble. So that was the first time I really saw that how much no one wants to

[00:09:30] talk about this and how scared people are of the backlash. And even in some of my other interviews

[00:09:36] that weren't about hazing, if I even slipped in the word hazing, the frat brother would

[00:09:43] squirm. And this was very interesting to me because it's such an open secret. Everyone

[00:09:50] knows it's happening, but then they like to pretend that it's not because out of fear

[00:09:57] of getting in trouble. And so that's why the episodes about hazing are called the H word

[00:10:03] because no one wants to say hazing. Can you just like for anyone who's maybe living under a rock

[00:10:10] or doesn't know what hazing is, can you just define it? What does it entail? What could it look

[00:10:16] like? Yeah, a picture for us. For sure. So hazing I would say is any act that you are

[00:10:27] coerced into that might endanger you or humiliate you or make you uncomfortable in any way. And it's

[00:10:36] usually hazing is done when you are a new member to an organization. So in sororities and fraternities

[00:10:45] you are a pledge or they can call it a new member if they want to seem reformed. But

[00:10:52] essentially fresh blood, right? Oftentimes it starts off small. So a lot of the time

[00:11:00] is people don't even consider certain things to be hazing. Like one thing that the fraternities do

[00:11:06] is they go around on campus or they go around to the sororities on campus and

[00:11:12] will serenade them. And I remember when I was in a sorority I saw this happen and I was like,

[00:11:19] oh that's so cute, that's so funny. And a lot of hazing can seem maybe funny from afar. And

[00:11:30] oftentimes this hazing is not even looked at as hazing because it's, hazing is a spectrum.

[00:11:37] And the small things like serenades or cleaning the fraternity houses that might not be like

[00:11:47] traumatizing oftentimes leads into the more brutal hazing where you're being lined up

[00:11:53] and you're forced to do push-ups or you're being waterboarded or you're forced to eat

[00:12:01] a bunch of shit. Like there are so many things that frats do with hazing. There's too many examples

[00:12:13] to list but with sororities for example one thing that I didn't see as hazing until after the fact

[00:12:19] was that we had to sit in a circle and disclose our deepest darkest trauma to each other like

[00:12:28] a room full of 40, 18 year olds and we're all just like crying offering up our worst trauma

[00:12:36] and that we just met each other. And at the time I'm like wow I'm getting so close with my sisters

[00:12:43] but looking back at it it's hazing. It's hazing and also trauma bonding. The thing that's so

[00:12:50] tricky about it like you said it's an open secret and when I had a couple fraternities

[00:12:54] approached me and my whole philosophy is I'm just not going to take shit from guys I don't like.

[00:12:58] Like I'd been in the jock culture enough to know I just don't need another group of guys that

[00:13:03] there was one example there was one guy that was pledging they got a phone call

[00:13:06] at like two in the morning he always had to be on call during his pledge

[00:13:10] and one of the guys called him over he went over there and he's like him in my remote

[00:13:13] and he had to hand him his remote and then go back to bed it was like across campus.

[00:13:18] So that kind of seems funny like when you say it because it's stupid and silly but I just

[00:13:23] wasn't going to do that crap. You know I remember my dad was telling me he was in a frat you know when

[00:13:27] he was in college and like they made guys eat sticks of butter. It's juvenile stuff that kind of can get

[00:13:34] the hall pass of boys will be boys but it's really. It's testing your obedience. It's

[00:13:39] just testing your obedience and it's not fun for me. That just never seemed like fun.

[00:13:43] Yeah so well I mean I of course see everything through the lens of how is this culty and

[00:13:48] it's an initiation. It's a humiliation and initiation process to test your loyalty and

[00:13:54] your commitment and if you want to be part of the group which is the thing that I see so

[00:13:59] rampantly in sororities and fraternities is it's praying on that desire and natural need to belong

[00:14:05] and be part of community and say yes you can have it but you have to do x, y and z first.

[00:14:10] It's like branding. Well some fraternities do brand.

[00:14:14] They do yeah. As was told to me when I tried to blow the whistle well

[00:14:19] so how do you break the secrecy? How do you inspire people?

[00:14:22] Especially when they're afraid of the backlash. What's the hopeful anecdote there I guess?

[00:14:26] Right well I mean in order to break the secrecy ideally you would get rid of the dynamics that

[00:14:33] create the secrecy which are in Greek life there's power positions and everything is supposed

[00:14:41] to be handled internally so that nothing has to get out to the school or whoever else and so

[00:14:49] I mean I just don't think that any more oversight will help because I think that

[00:14:56] the more oversight there is the less willing people are to talk and then the less willing

[00:15:03] people will be to call the ambulance when inevitably something does go wrong someone

[00:15:09] falls down the stairs someone drinks too much needs to go to the hospital and this is then

[00:15:14] what leads to death because no one wants to call for help because no one wants to be the one

[00:15:20] that gets their frat kicked off campus and then in the moment like they're willing to take that

[00:15:26] chance it doesn't you know you feel invincible and think that no one will die but people

[00:15:32] people die over and over again so I think the only thing to really remove that secrecy

[00:15:38] is to remove the organization themselves this podcast wouldn't happen without our amazing supportive

[00:15:47] generous patrons are you with us come find us over on patreon at patreon.com

[00:15:53] slash a little bit culty for bonus episodes exclusive content and the occasional zoom

[00:15:58] with our fan favorites from our past episodes it's a lot of fun over there people break

[00:16:09] times over people let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty it's a good one I'll

[00:16:16] never forget how I felt like the pain in my body listening to your recap of what happened to

[00:16:22] Timpiazza and how there were so many opportunities for someone to call to get help and why the

[00:16:29] social pressure to not be the rat prevented that it's just horrific that's a peer pressure that has

[00:16:35] such life altering consequences and Nipi and I were talking about this last night as we were

[00:16:40] getting ready for bed and I said you know what I can't talk about this right now because

[00:16:43] I'm not going to be able to sleep because of being the mom of two boys and picturing something

[00:16:47] like this like it's just horrific and it still boggles my mind that this is happening across

[00:16:53] America as I'm sure it's in Canada too but I didn't it wasn't on my radar it's not a Greek life in

[00:16:58] Canada well there are no I there were fraternities already yeah there were but I just that wasn't

[00:17:03] where I went to school wasn't a big thing there well it's an annual event it's not like this

[00:17:07] is like you know it's like this happens every year in college campuses literally it's like traditional

[00:17:13] and as you're talking I'm thinking about relating to all the other episodes we've done specifically

[00:17:17] where like in the Mormon church in Jehovah's Witness and it's specifically you don't call

[00:17:21] the police like you don't reach out for help outside the community you can't shine light

[00:17:26] get that kind of authority attention on the community that's it's this exact same thing

[00:17:30] and it's so obvious to me and then not only that but you also can't really critique the group within

[00:17:37] the group so like saying that this is wrong is hard even to do within the group right and the

[00:17:45] secrecy that's enforced like with Timpiazza at Penn State and Tucker Hipps at Clemson all the

[00:17:51] fraternity brothers maintaining that secrecy then hinders the investigations just like with

[00:17:57] so many other cases we've seen has there been any advances or anything that's come out of those cases

[00:18:03] and is it progressed are you in touch with Tim's mom still no I'm not in touch with her but I've

[00:18:09] been following the case and the last I heard is that the two that have yet to be sentenced

[00:18:17] apparently that might happen in September is the last I heard but still no one has seen

[00:18:23] jail time or I don't know faced any real consequences what's that like for you I mean at this point it's

[00:18:30] not shocking because I've looked into a lot of different fraternity hazing cases and it's very

[00:18:37] rare for them to go to jail and when they do go to jail it's more like 15 days or 30 days

[00:18:44] so it really at this point is I feel a bit numb to it yeah but of course I can't even imagine

[00:18:52] what it's like for Evelyn Piazza and all these other mothers out here and some of these mothers are

[00:19:00] still trying to even figure out what happened to their son because in Timpiazza's case they had

[00:19:06] a video recording of the entire night or I or most of the night and they actually deleted that

[00:19:14] video recording as part of the cover-up but the FBI recovered it and so I can't even imagine

[00:19:21] that in a case where there's video recording no one sees jail time I can't even imagine

[00:19:29] the other cases where they don't have the video recording and then it's the brothers word against

[00:19:38] I don't know it's just you just have to rely on what the brothers are saying and in cases

[00:19:43] with Tucker Hips still to this day it is an unsolved case because the brothers who were there

[00:19:50] when Tucker died will not say what happened can you summarize that case we haven't talked about

[00:19:57] that yet yeah for sure so I'm gonna read from my notes because gotta be careful with my wording

[00:20:04] on this one yeah that's the crazy thing you've got to be careful with your wording so Tucker

[00:20:10] Hips died in 2014 he fell off of a bridge and it's still a mystery as to what happened

[00:20:19] according to court documents from the family's wrongful death lawsuit against Clemson a witness

[00:20:25] said Tucker fell when he was forced to walk the bridge railing as a punishment for failing to bring

[00:20:32] breakfast biscuits for other students on the run so they were on like a pledge class run

[00:20:38] and something happened there was some sort of altercation and he was found in a lake

[00:20:44] the witness further alleges that Hips's brothers attempted to locate him in the waters

[00:20:52] using a light from a cell phone but that no attempt was made to rescue him this was in 2014

[00:20:59] and still no one has come forward there's a hundred thousand dollar reward for anyone who

[00:21:04] does come forward and the most interesting part of this case to me is that the one who was accused

[00:21:13] of organizing the alleged hazing event is the son of John Carney who is the governor of Delaware

[00:21:20] and at the time he was a three-term democratic congressman from Delaware and so I just find

[00:21:29] that very interesting and no charges have ever been filed in Tucker's death and those 29 boys

[00:21:38] are still keeping a secret without getting yourself in trouble where do you feel that privilege plays

[00:21:44] into this dynamic yeah I mean I would assume that if you're the son of the eventual governor

[00:21:53] of Delaware and I guess congressman at the time I would assume that you have some pretty good connections

[00:22:00] I mean I know that John Carney is buddies with Biden like he's at the top of the government so

[00:22:07] I would assume there's some good connects there and membership in a frat in order to be a member

[00:22:15] you already need to be part of a very elite circle I guess you don't well you need to have

[00:22:22] money at least or your family needs to have money because you're paying dues which start at

[00:22:27] usually around 700 a semester up to 2000 a semester depending on what frat or severity you're in

[00:22:34] and so you're already the richest white kids on campus basically building an army where

[00:22:42] you can then protect each other and do favors for each other and oh this guy's dad is a lawyer

[00:22:47] and blah blah blah they have a network that can exist to protect them and then also after the fact

[00:22:55] they have connections to get jobs so I know Cordell mentioned who I interviewed in the Tim

[00:23:02] Piazza case who was one of the witnesses to the event and tried to call for help he mentioned

[00:23:09] that the pledge master and the president former pledge master now have jobs on wall street allegedly

[00:23:17] and you know are just living their lives so to me this was very shocking when I first heard that but

[00:23:24] it makes complete sense these these really are rich white kids with connects and so of course

[00:23:33] since obviously no one from that camp is going to take responsibility what what can you do with

[00:23:38] the universities what's the university's responsibility and what recourse do people have

[00:23:43] going through the universities and how inspired or incentivized are they to clean this up from your

[00:23:49] perspective from my perspective they want to keep these groups ruined through I mean the alumni

[00:23:57] donations from these groups are higher like people if you were in a subordinary fraternity you're

[00:24:02] apparently more likely to donate and for them it really seems like it's all about the money

[00:24:07] and so I don't think that going through the school helps because at worst and through the lens of

[00:24:15] someone who's in a fraternity at worst they're gonna kick them off campus and another scenario

[00:24:22] would be that they don't get kicked off campus but you then just get hazed more because someone

[00:24:29] in the pledge class snitched and they're gonna then try and figure out who in the pledge

[00:24:33] class snitched and then it turns into you know you're getting waterboarded like it really

[00:24:39] does not seem appealing to go to the school sounds like a gang it will also is it fair to

[00:24:44] say that there are these clubs on campuses that in a lot of ways are the selling points for

[00:24:49] the universities and the universities need them in order to secure their bags yeah so if you

[00:24:56] take those off you lose those you lose that asset it's almost like an asset class for

[00:25:00] the universities in some ways for sure and that's why society's opinion really needs to flip when it

[00:25:06] comes to these organizations and so that it seems like an asset if they don't have greek life

[00:25:14] at their school I know that if I had a son or a daughter I would only be paying for schools

[00:25:19] that don't have great life yeah for me when I went to college I did not care about it

[00:25:24] and would you want I'm just because I don't really know how it works when there is

[00:25:28] such a high presence of greek life even if they're not in the sorority fraternity you just don't even

[00:25:33] want them on the campus right because they dominate the social scene right they have all the parties

[00:25:38] and they have all the parties they control the underage drinking scene and frat men are three

[00:25:44] times more likely to rape than non fraternity men and it's just not a positive presence on

[00:25:51] campus it isolates and alienates other students it it holds you know an entire fraternity row of space

[00:26:00] for the students who are already the most privileged and it offers resources to students

[00:26:06] who are already the most privileged it's time to create spaces on campus that are for the entire

[00:26:12] community and not just students that can afford a thousand dollars a semester it's a microcosm

[00:26:17] of our culture exactly I was just thinking about it I was like every time I talked to you I get more

[00:26:21] riled up if universities or society at large were to see that these groups run and operate in the same

[00:26:27] way as a gang based on what you just said and a cult why do they exist so Lucy just to give you

[00:26:34] little context like Sarah and I are kicking around at least I'm kicking around the idea of

[00:26:38] homeschooling because I'm looking at these schools and a lot of the education systems don't have

[00:26:43] the minerals to stand up to these groups and if they can't be pioneers and leaders

[00:26:49] and standing up to these factions of people how are they going to teach my son to do that

[00:26:53] and I just for someone who's been through standing up to something and knowing what it takes I'm

[00:26:58] certainly going to pass it on to my kids and I'm not going to drop them off into school or

[00:27:02] I'm paying money for them to learn the opposite of what I'm teaching them so we're a little bit

[00:27:06] of a crossroads is not big yet but like that that to me seems the problem of their education

[00:27:11] system educating them to be obedient to these groups and it chaps my ass there I say I know

[00:27:16] that's my right that chaps my ass too anything else chopping your ass since we spoke last well

[00:27:21] it's chopping my ass that people are acting like the idea of Greek life being taken away

[00:27:29] is like against their human rights and like that they're like these victims that are like

[00:27:37] oh you're taking my binge drinking away and they're going to cling they're going to cling to some

[00:27:42] faux principle and then you're going to have to expose how none of their behaviors are in line

[00:27:48] with those principles and then ultimately it's going to become obvious that you're the one that

[00:27:52] actually embodies the principles they're pretending to champion and then once that

[00:27:56] discrepancy is obvious to everyone I think it becomes okay we have to now see to this person

[00:28:03] because they're clearly putting themselves through the ringer to uphold the principles and

[00:28:08] we're not and look that's a process I think give yourself credit for what you've you've done so far

[00:28:14] you're obviously doing something right my question to you now is from the links that I watch and

[00:28:20] when I'm reading I feel like you're a one person army do you have help do you have a wingman

[00:28:24] so to speak or a wing woman or who do you have advocating for you who my co-producer

[00:28:29] Megan Thompson she has been with the podcast since day zero she was my roommate in college and so she's

[00:28:38] seen all of this develop and she was there at the interviews with me and is always

[00:28:45] taking it upon herself to have my back so I definitely have a small little support

[00:28:53] close with me and then I have a lot of support within the SNAPs community mostly social media

[00:29:00] support I wish it was a little I wish it was more in person I would love for there to be some sort

[00:29:05] of protest of sorts but I don't know if that if there's enough people or if I don't know people

[00:29:12] are just really are hesitant yeah is there anyone on campus I think if you can make

[00:29:17] an example of one university that can be a template to go into other universities

[00:29:23] and get the person the conscience of the university would that be an option or do you have I'm just

[00:29:29] a bit down here I don't know for one university to shut it down yeah like you've gotten Maryland

[00:29:34] to shut it down for how long well I didn't get them to shut it down will you participate in it

[00:29:39] I'm sure I don't know I don't know if I did yeah it's crumbled on its own yeah it's crumbled

[00:29:46] on its own I think you probably participated in ways you don't know yet there is always that

[00:29:51] these things do crumble on their own but at what cost right because it seems to be there has to be

[00:29:56] you know what I've always said there has to be something in the physical realm for people to

[00:30:00] respond but the physical incident or abuse is a manifestation of a lot of emotional abuse

[00:30:07] hazing in this case that's gone on for a long time and by the time something shut down

[00:30:12] something egregious has been going on for a long time yeah so I wonder if you can if you could

[00:30:19] capitalize on what's going on at Maryland and make it an example in other universities I don't

[00:30:23] know it just seems to me like this is something that's been going on for a while even when I was

[00:30:27] applying to schools and so that was before you were born by the way thanks Sarah thanks

[00:30:33] Sarah I just don't think that the universities want the truth I messaged the University of

[00:30:40] Maryland I called them and they declined to meet with me wow so I really I don't think that they're

[00:30:49] on board with the mission I can't imagine that your work hasn't had an impact like it may not be

[00:30:56] the reason that they shut it down right now but if they said that's for multiple reasons I'm sure

[00:31:01] you and your advocacy is part of that like I can't imagine how that would be not an effect

[00:31:07] I'm dying to know what happened and I'm sure our listeners will want to know as you find out so please

[00:31:12] promise to circle back with us so we can update yeah we'll keep updating because this is something

[00:31:17] the education institutes institutions in our country right now to me I'm I'm sus so sus so

[00:31:25] it's incredible that goes against the whole mission of learning yeah I don't learn be obedient

[00:31:34] eat shit right and pay us to do it big money for more background on what brought us here check out my

[00:31:43] page turning memoir it's called scarred the true story of how I escaped next year the cult

[00:31:47] that bound my life it's available on amazon audible and at most bookstores and if you

[00:31:52] want to see that story in streaming form you can watch both seasons of the vow on HBO

[00:32:03] break times over people let's get back to this episode of a little bit culty it's a good one

[00:32:09] so your advocacy is included supporting the stop campus hazing act which aims to enforce transparency

[00:32:15] about hazing incidents and campuses but you've also mentioned feeling conflicted about the

[00:32:20] potential effectiveness of legislative measures like the stop campus hazing act can you elaborate

[00:32:25] on your concerns and discuss what broader changes you believe are needed to address

[00:32:30] the causes of hazing culture for sure so I think that the stop campus hazing act would be

[00:32:37] great but that's the bare minimum to me so one of the things that the stop campus hazing act would do

[00:32:45] is that it would improve hazing reporting by requiring colleges to include hazing incidents

[00:32:52] in their annual security report and to me this is just the bare minimum I mean the fact that

[00:32:56] this is like a controversial thing in fact this hasn't been passed yet is absurd to me

[00:33:01] and the transparency should be offered and to me that doesn't seem like a big deal but it somehow is

[00:33:09] I'm in total support of the stop campus hazing act but I just it can't stop there yeah I can't

[00:33:15] stop there and I'm flabbergasted that it hasn't been passed yet this has been an ongoing saga

[00:33:19] to get this bill passed these poor parents have banned it together parents who have lost their

[00:33:25] sons to hazing have banded together to get this act passed they've gone to DC they've done it all

[00:33:32] and still there's nothing and there's even there's no federal law against hazing right now

[00:33:39] and Greek organizations have even lobbied against potential federal laws against hazing in the

[00:33:47] past so they don't want it's or it seems that they don't want there to be a federal law

[00:33:52] against hazing which is questionable but I think that a big part of the issue also is that we're

[00:33:59] placing the blame on students we're putting all the responsibility on the hazers and I think that

[00:34:09] doing so ignores the fact that they were once hazed and have become the perpetrators which

[00:34:17] I'm not excusing their actions but we're not paying attention to the fact that it's the university's

[00:34:23] responsibility to protect students and not put them in situations where it's like the Stanford

[00:34:31] prison experiment and someone's a pledge master and has that power and control to now have full

[00:34:40] authority over the pledges and so I think it needs to be the universities and the national

[00:34:48] fraternities and subordines who are the ones facing consequences because this is they operate

[00:34:54] like organized crime organization yep they've basically have institutions on campus that

[00:35:00] are supposed to educate you but they have systems that have normalized abuse and then

[00:35:05] created kids to normalize abuse that's in essence what they've done yeah and one of the

[00:35:09] links you sent us is we'll include in our show notes I heard them say that the university said

[00:35:16] they have no tolerance for anything that threatens student safety how was that to hear that when

[00:35:21] you when you hear that and then you see the actions how does that feel I think it's so funny

[00:35:26] in a sick way for the h-word part one the first episode that I did about hazing how the

[00:35:31] episode opens is the universities are making all these statements and the frats are making all

[00:35:37] these statements and it's just going completely against what they're saying when it comes to the

[00:35:44] actions of their members yeah so if you put it in order of statement and then action statement

[00:35:50] and then action it just does not line up and is almost humorous to me because I just can't

[00:35:58] believe that they believe what they're saying I just wonder about the person who has to write

[00:36:03] those statements and I'm just like oh like what are they thinking do they genuinely believe that

[00:36:10] because there's just no way every time I talk to you I have a new level of awareness like I don't

[00:36:16] know if you know this that with words being changed to be more inclusive aware like you

[00:36:22] can't even say master bedroom anymore it's the owner's suite like the fact that they could even say

[00:36:27] pledge master to me it's and we had and also we had slaves and masters in dots like changing

[00:36:34] language and all that stuff is that's what I'm saying and we're saying saying the changing the

[00:36:38] language isn't going to isn't gonna isn't gonna fix it you're changing the words to try to make

[00:36:43] it better but it's not going to change the dynamic is what I'm saying and yeah again every

[00:36:48] time I talk to you I get more riled up I see more correlations you know I have to tell you

[00:36:53] every time we do this everybody's very empathetic to you they believe you in terms of our audience at

[00:36:59] least and they rally for you some more than others because of their own sometimes positive

[00:37:05] experience and to that I say I'm glad that you had a positive experience people took a five day

[00:37:11] and had a positive experience yeah lots of people did our training we say this with every

[00:37:15] with and I'm gonna say it again for our both can be true for all our sorority and

[00:37:19] fraternity advocates out there listening it can't be all bad all the time otherwise it doesn't exist

[00:37:24] we're looking at the bad stuff here we're looking at the negative we're looking at the

[00:37:27] destructive if you had a good experience please don't let that dim Lucy's voice because

[00:37:35] we have to look at this stuff how would I say this to a listener who's feeling defensive

[00:37:39] about their sorority and their little circle of girlfriends that drink mimosas and go on girls

[00:37:44] traps I'm thrilled for you I really am no I am I am if one of their children died in a fraternity

[00:37:51] or sorority how would they feel and that's empathy and they have been going on some rants lately

[00:37:56] because all of them rants rants well I just I feel like it's really insensitive and I'm calling

[00:38:01] it out before the before it happens so I appreciate that I also want to ask those people who

[00:38:09] might be feeling defensive why equate those friendships that you've made which I believe are

[00:38:16] amazing friendships like hell yeah I love that but why do they have to be equated to the organization

[00:38:23] if I joined a normal golf club or something and then the golf club ended up being really bad

[00:38:31] and that I met a best friend there I just don't see myself needing to thank the golf club

[00:38:37] yeah that's a really really good point you can maintain your friendships from your whatever

[00:38:42] for at fraternity you don't have to attribute the success of the friendship to that that's a good

[00:38:47] point and I see that actually with a lot of ex-members of specifically nexium they don't want to

[00:38:52] denounce nexium because they think they're going to lose their community and what they don't know

[00:38:57] is that the community is even stronger on the other side actually for the 10 people who are

[00:39:02] still remaining loyal to Keith and not listening to a podcast may or may not be listening to this

[00:39:06] podcast but if you are consider that is that a real is that an accurate 10 to 20 maybe like we don't

[00:39:12] know for sure they're continuing to still drop out but there's a devoted circle who'll probably

[00:39:17] never renounce them because they do not have the strength or the internal ethics to evaluate

[00:39:25] that maybe they were wrong right it's hard it's hard when you dedicate your life to

[00:39:29] something and I get I do get it I do yeah get that for the people who really you know for whatever

[00:39:34] reason had a positive experience and they dedicated their life and a lot of money it is hard to go

[00:39:39] oh shit was that part of something bad it's easier to say well my experience was good

[00:39:44] 100 but it still sucks doesn't it to not have their support here we are I guess

[00:39:49] the year you're in change later and you're still at it and you and there's progress made so

[00:39:53] I'll say to you what I said in the last podcast keep doing what you're doing and

[00:39:56] keep us posted and great work your podcast is great it is so good it's so well produced

[00:40:02] everyone check it out and one of our dearest fans and supporters Tony Wormold wrote to us I told our

[00:40:09] group that we were interviewing you again and she said I love your podcast please ask her how

[00:40:13] she has the strength to keep fighting against these organizations it must have been so hard

[00:40:17] because I'm so removed from it myself at this point and I've also heard every response in the book

[00:40:25] I'm just numb to those responses and I see each response at face value I can consider

[00:40:33] the different stages of life that they're in and I just don't take it personally I really is just

[00:40:40] awareness that like the more that I've learned about these organizations the more

[00:40:46] confident I am in my stance yeah and I think that sometimes you know you're right I feel like I'm right

[00:40:56] and I'll just keep talking because I'm just so confident in what I'm saying especially after

[00:41:05] the research I've done and the people I've interviewed yeah there's no lack of evidence

[00:41:10] of what you're saying yeah yeah anything else you want our audience to know any big takeaways we

[00:41:15] didn't cover well alpha feed did send a cease and desist that's an update oh that's right all right

[00:41:21] yeah but that's progress that was handled pro bono god bless but yeah that just shows that they

[00:41:29] do want anything negative out there and they're willing to silence people and luckily just because

[00:41:38] something is on a pdf doesn't make it real like just because they send a cease and desist doesn't

[00:41:45] mean that I was doing anything wrong no so I would tell people to watch out and check on their

[00:41:50] cease and desist so they get any because just because it's on a pdf doesn't mean you have to

[00:41:57] follow what they're saying yeah little saber rattling yeah it's a little threatening yeah

[00:42:02] a little bit culty yeah a little culty tactic right and it came from the director of accountability

[00:42:12] the doa like stray from alpha fee international the director of accountability god bless

[00:42:20] to be right back saying I'm so glad that you're taking accountability by writing a cease and desist

[00:42:24] letter oh you should have signed it director of accountability no seriously hashtag eat shit

[00:42:31] right there you go get another thing a little bit there that's a call back it's what comedians

[00:42:35] call a callback luci taylor thank you for coming thrice onto a little bit culty please keep in

[00:42:41] touch thank you so much I will i'll let you know any updates as soon as I get them we'll see what

[00:42:48] happens and people can find your podcast wherever they listen to podcasts right wherever they listen

[00:42:54] and find you on the IG at snaps the podcast love it bye you like what you hear please do give us a

[00:43:02] rating a review and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen every little bit helps us get this cult

[00:43:07] awareness content out there smash that subscribe button you know what to do so that was luci taylor

[00:43:15] and coming up next we'll drop a conversation with her that we had originally aired as a

[00:43:19] patreon episode with more context for you about the cases we discussed so keep an eye out and

[00:43:24] ears out for that as well thank you for listening and we'll be back soon with new episodes and until

[00:43:30] then let's not do any pledging or any rushing for any fraternities or sororities or branding for that

[00:43:36] matter thanks everybody see you soon on a little bit culty

[00:43:55] thanks for listening everyone we're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culty now to discuss

[00:44:05] this episode in the meantime dear listener please remember this podcast is solely for general

[00:44:10] informational educational and entertainment purposes it's not intended as a substitute for real

[00:44:16] medical legal or therapeutic advice for cult recovery resources and to learn more about

[00:44:21] seeking safely in this culty world check out a little bit culty dot com slash culty resources

[00:44:26] and don't miss sarah's TED talk called how cult literate are you great stuff a little bit culty is

[00:44:32] a trace 120 production executive produced by sarah edmondson and anthony nippy aims in collaboration

[00:44:37] with producer will reutherford at citizens of sound and our co-creator and show chaplain

[00:44:41] slash bodyguard jess temple tardy and our theme song cultivated is by john bryant