Patreon Replay: Lucy Taylor on Greek Life & Death at Penn State

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[00:00:58] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:59] And I'm Anthony, air quotes nippy, Ames.

[00:01:02] And this is A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:05] A podcast about what happens when things that seem like a great thing at first go bad.

[00:01:09] Every week we chat with survivors, experts, and whistleblowers for real cult stories told directly by the people who live through them.

[00:01:16] Because we want you to learn a few things we've had to learn the hard way.

[00:01:20] Like if you think you're too smart to get sucked into something culty,

[00:01:23] you're already prime recruitment material.

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[00:01:30] Welcome to season six of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:01:51] Hey everybody.

[00:01:52] The episode that follows was originally aired for our Patreon audience,

[00:01:55] but we wanted to share it this week with everyone far and wide.

[00:01:59] It's a sit down with Lucy Taylor to talk about campus hazing cases

[00:02:03] that could really make your hair stand on end.

[00:02:06] Give it a listen and let us know what you think.

[00:02:08] It's sort of a part three with Lucy Taylor.

[00:02:10] One was a few seasons ago and two was last week.

[00:02:13] Make sure you listen to those first.

[00:02:15] And if you're interested in more ALBC content, join us over on Patreon at patreon.com slash A Little Bit Culty.

[00:02:22] And here's some breaking culty news.

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[00:02:46] Enjoy part three sort of with Lucy Taylor.

[00:03:02] Hello everybody and welcome back to this week's Patreon special bonus extravaganza

[00:03:08] with Lucy Taylor from the Snapped Podcast.

[00:03:12] Really an extravaganza.

[00:03:15] It's an extravaganza.

[00:03:16] Okay.

[00:03:17] All right.

[00:03:17] It's gotta be.

[00:03:18] Also, as you all know here, I was trying to do this last week.

[00:03:21] Nippy ordered bed rest because I had a very bad case of laryngitis.

[00:03:26] I'm back in action and we have decided to answer your questions that you posted

[00:03:32] and have a conversation about where Lucy is now.

[00:03:35] And we also decided to do a longer episode for the main feed coming shortly.

[00:03:41] Today's episode will focus on a very special week, which we'll get into.

[00:03:45] But first of all, Lucy, how are you since we had you on our podcast?

[00:03:48] Oh my gosh.

[00:03:49] It's been so long.

[00:03:51] I don't even know how I've been.

[00:03:53] I feel like I've just been go, go, go making this season in hyper focus.

[00:03:58] It's been hard for me to really reflect about how I've been

[00:04:02] and take a moment to just appreciate where I am.

[00:04:07] Let's take that moment.

[00:04:08] Yeah.

[00:04:09] It's needed.

[00:04:11] Yeah. You've been working really hard since Snap came out

[00:04:15] and I have been following your journey on social and through the podcast

[00:04:18] and a lot has happened.

[00:04:19] You've done a great job.

[00:04:20] And our listeners.

[00:04:22] Thank you.

[00:04:23] Yes.

[00:04:24] And it's very impressive that you've also done so much of it yourself.

[00:04:29] Like a real one woman show.

[00:04:30] I know you've had a lot of support too, but you've really been the driver.

[00:04:33] And also you've been unfunded, correct?

[00:04:36] Or do you have sponsors now?

[00:04:38] So we have one sponsor.

[00:04:41] It was kind of a shenanigan to get.

[00:04:43] It was like this whole back and forth.

[00:04:45] Then eventually I locked it down.

[00:04:48] And then I tried doing like affiliate sponsors,

[00:04:52] but that really hasn't worked out too well.

[00:04:56] But yeah, it's pretty unfunded.

[00:04:59] I mean, it's kind of funded because I have one sponsor, but you know.

[00:05:04] Does it cover everything?

[00:05:05] No, no.

[00:05:07] No.

[00:05:09] Um, but it's still been great.

[00:05:11] I feel like I've learned so many skills because I've had to do so much of it myself.

[00:05:17] Right.

[00:05:17] That now I just have all these skills and like a portfolio to show for it.

[00:05:21] And I can just take that with me to wherever I go next.

[00:05:24] Yeah.

[00:05:25] It'll open up something else for sure.

[00:05:28] I think what I told you, I think in our last episode is like,

[00:05:31] I think there's a series here or a book or something like that.

[00:05:35] I think there's something there because it's unfortunately, it's not ending.

[00:05:39] Right.

[00:05:40] So.

[00:05:41] Right.

[00:05:41] Well, that was actually one of the questions is there's been a lot of not scripted series,

[00:05:46] but documentary series and movies and stuff on various platforms.

[00:05:50] We haven't watched them all.

[00:05:51] I'm sure you have.

[00:05:52] How do those shows represent what's actually going on?

[00:05:55] Are you happy with them?

[00:05:57] Are you dissatisfied?

[00:05:58] Where are you?

[00:05:58] Where do you sit?

[00:05:59] So the only one that I've seen is Bama Rush.

[00:06:02] I don't know of any others that recently have come out.

[00:06:05] Bama Rush, I was not too pleased by.

[00:06:09] I think they didn't really have a story.

[00:06:12] They just wanted to capitalize off of the hype that Bama Rush was bringing to TikTok.

[00:06:19] Which is what?

[00:06:20] For those who don't know.

[00:06:21] Yeah.

[00:06:21] So Bama Rush on TikTok is this whole thing where the sororities,

[00:06:26] like the PNMs, the potential new members will make TikToks being like,

[00:06:31] this is my outfit of the day for Rush Day number one or blah, blah, blah.

[00:06:35] And then the TikTok viewers would follow along on their Rush experience and see

[00:06:41] if they ended up getting into the sorority that they wanted.

[00:06:44] Who got into the top tiers and whatnot?

[00:06:47] To be honest, I wasn't really watching Bama Rush because I have to really

[00:06:52] be careful with what sorority content I consume or else I'm just over it and can't do anymore.

[00:06:58] But I think that HBO saw a good opportunity, but they didn't have an in

[00:07:09] to get any real information about what was going on behind the scenes.

[00:07:14] And it was more so just like a lot of filler.

[00:07:18] It felt like the majority of it was filler.

[00:07:20] The trailer seemed to me to have kind of a real housewife's feel to it as opposed to

[00:07:25] seeking to understand what the abuses may have been and capitalizing on that.

[00:07:31] That was my take on it.

[00:07:33] And just for our listeners, just so you know,

[00:07:35] you could probably just find the trailer anywhere to get a sense of what it's about.

[00:07:40] That was my initial impression.

[00:07:41] Right. Yeah.

[00:07:42] Yeah. I think also the director that they put on it didn't really know much about

[00:07:49] Greek life.

[00:07:49] And the comments she was making was like, I could tell that she didn't really know

[00:07:55] much about Greek life because she was saying things like, oh, well they do

[00:07:59] philanthropy and stuff.

[00:08:01] And if she had really known a lot about sororities and fraternities,

[00:08:06] she would know that they are fake philanthropies and that it's just a front

[00:08:10] and that they're not, it's not about actual community work.

[00:08:15] It's just look, we have a philanthropy.

[00:08:17] This is great for our PR.

[00:08:19] Let's have a frat activity.

[00:08:24] Got it.

[00:08:24] It's like Scientology saying they're helping the world with world hunger or literacy.

[00:08:31] So when we met with the HBO team, I think it was Nancy Abrams and Lauren Heller.

[00:08:37] They produce most of the content for the HBO docs.

[00:08:40] And even the ones I watched on airplanes, HBO docs, they are done extremely well.

[00:08:46] Even subject matter that I wouldn't have expected them to know, like sports stuff.

[00:08:53] There was one on Willie Mays and I saw their names at the end of it.

[00:08:55] I was like, good God, these two are on it.

[00:08:57] And I met with them at the trial with Keith.

[00:09:01] And it was kind of like when I was himming and howling about whether or not I wanted

[00:09:04] to be in a documentary or not.

[00:09:05] And I said, listen, I'm here to protect my family.

[00:09:07] That's the only reason I would do something like this.

[00:09:09] And they were pretty responsible with it.

[00:09:11] So I'd be curious to see if they were a part of this.

[00:09:13] And I'll Google it and find out.

[00:09:15] Yeah, I'd be curious too.

[00:09:17] And sounds like probably not.

[00:09:19] But given...

[00:09:20] Well, it's their department.

[00:09:22] So I don't know the bureaucracy and how that works.

[00:09:25] Or even if they're still there because that was a couple years ago.

[00:09:29] Anyway.

[00:09:29] Okay.

[00:09:29] So since we had you here last on season one, you were now on season three, correct?

[00:09:38] I think I was on season two and now I'm on season three.

[00:09:42] So we were focusing on recruitment for season two.

[00:09:44] And then season three has now been a whole plethora of topics.

[00:09:49] Tell our listeners what season three has so they can get caught up.

[00:09:53] Totally.

[00:09:53] So season three starts off in Sovority World.

[00:09:57] We just finished the recruitment process in season two.

[00:09:59] So now we're going into it and trying to figure out, okay, what happens next once

[00:10:04] they are in the Sovority and are a pledge?

[00:10:07] And so it starts off in the first two episodes of Sovority World.

[00:10:13] It gives you insight into what these women are dealing with essentially and how...

[00:10:20] It's just this really weird world of like, be a lady but also fuck these frat guys.

[00:10:28] And don't drink but go to the social and chug this wine bag.

[00:10:33] So it really captures that aspect of Sovority life.

[00:10:37] And then we go to Away Weekend, which is like this...

[00:10:43] It genuinely is a binge drinking extravaganza where they just go off to a house in the

[00:10:49] Poconos or Lord knows where and have a binge drinking extravaganza with the frat.

[00:10:56] And the frat brings a Sovority girl and there's lots of pressure to hook up with them.

[00:11:02] And so we see two examples of how this goes wrong.

[00:11:06] One person I interviewed didn't want to hook up with her date and so she was

[00:11:12] drinking the entire time and then ended up going to the hospital.

[00:11:15] And then the second person I interviewed, she was trigger warning rape.

[00:11:22] Going to be talking about rape.

[00:11:23] She was gang raped by the Fraternity men, which is actually very common in Fraternity

[00:11:30] World.

[00:11:31] But it's very normalized.

[00:11:34] When it happened to her, her friends were like,

[00:11:35] oh you don't remember?

[00:11:36] Like you had a threesome.

[00:11:38] Not really.

[00:11:40] And she was drugged and that's another topic that we discuss because the frat

[00:11:45] guys think it's funny to drug each other's drinks and it's just so normalized.

[00:11:49] And it's a whole thing.

[00:11:51] That's episode three of the season.

[00:11:54] And then we talk about reform.

[00:11:58] And there's been so many people who have genuinely tried to reform these systems

[00:12:04] with the best of intentions, thinking they're the ones that are making the

[00:12:08] change.

[00:12:09] And so I speak with some of these people, advisors and people who try to

[00:12:15] change it at the local level as current members.

[00:12:19] And they discuss the reforms that have happened or have not happened and how

[00:12:25] it's all simulated reform to make it seem like change is happening, but it's

[00:12:30] really not.

[00:12:30] Like for example, we talk about the position of diversity chair that they

[00:12:35] created mainly in 2020 after there was all the protests were going on and

[00:12:42] they were like, oh no, are we going to lose our Gen Z target audience?

[00:12:46] Because maybe they'll realize that sororities are racist.

[00:12:50] And so they're like, okay, let's make a diversity chair position.

[00:12:54] And then I interview people who were diversity chairs and how it turned out

[00:12:58] that the position was actually one that held no power and was just there to be

[00:13:05] there.

[00:13:06] Like a virtue signaling chair.

[00:13:08] Right.

[00:13:09] Right.

[00:13:10] Got it.

[00:13:11] And then episode five is called follow the money where we follow.

[00:13:15] I listened to that one.

[00:13:16] Yeah, you did?

[00:13:17] Awesome.

[00:13:17] Yes.

[00:13:18] Yeah.

[00:13:18] Yeah.

[00:13:19] So in that one, we follow the money and see where it goes.

[00:13:23] And it is that blew me away.

[00:13:25] That was crazy.

[00:13:27] Yeah, it is quite crazy.

[00:13:29] The adventure like that was definitely the episode that I spent the most time

[00:13:36] researching for and it took me a while to actually understand where the money

[00:13:42] was going.

[00:13:45] I don't want to spoil it, but it's not looking good.

[00:13:48] Yeah, there was a lot of like, oh, we don't actually know what that's for.

[00:13:55] Oh, I'm not actually sure.

[00:13:58] But why do you need this and this?

[00:14:00] So it's like sort of like this both for furniture.

[00:14:02] Like, where is it all going?

[00:14:05] Yeah.

[00:14:05] If you're going to listen to that, you'll be quite riled up, but not as

[00:14:08] riled up as we were from episodes.

[00:14:11] Six and seven.

[00:14:12] Six and seven that drop last week and this week.

[00:14:15] Correct.

[00:14:15] Because this episode with us, you and I lose us three will be dropping this

[00:14:19] Thursday.

[00:14:20] Because this is the anti-hazing awareness week.

[00:14:23] I think it's a hazing prevention week.

[00:14:25] Okay.

[00:14:25] I get confused too.

[00:14:27] Okay.

[00:14:28] You would know better than us.

[00:14:30] But this is why we wanted to have you on this week because we'd like

[00:14:34] to bring some awareness as well.

[00:14:37] As we talked about in our first episode with you, the abuses of power

[00:14:41] are not lost on us.

[00:14:41] You don't even have to call it a cult or culty.

[00:14:45] This is a very toxic atmosphere.

[00:14:46] I'm questioned just out of curiosity.

[00:14:49] And it's not an attempt to minimize what actually goes on in these things,

[00:14:54] but if you take alcohol out of the equation, a lot of this,

[00:14:57] how much do you think this abusive stuff curtailed and goes down a lot?

[00:15:02] I think for the fraternities, the alcohol is definitely what leads to

[00:15:08] more death, even though it can happen without alcohol too.

[00:15:12] For the sororities, I don't think it...

[00:15:17] I mean, it matters in the sense that when you go to the fraternity parties,

[00:15:21] it's all binge drinking.

[00:15:22] But I don't know.

[00:15:23] I think it's more so about America's drinking age.

[00:15:26] I think that if America's drinking age was 18 and not 21,

[00:15:31] there wouldn't be this binge drinking pressure and this secrecy of like,

[00:15:36] we need to have a pregame so that we can already get blacked out there

[00:15:40] and then go to the post game and blah, blah, blah.

[00:15:43] I hadn't actually made that connection.

[00:15:46] I didn't realize like, okay, duh, because it's not 21 in Canada.

[00:15:51] That is such a silly missing piece that I hadn't quite put together.

[00:15:54] You have to go underground with all your pregame...

[00:15:57] No, I remember those social settings and I just know that,

[00:15:59] look, you take young, especially males.

[00:16:02] Like, I'm not going to pick on men on this, but I know enough being in

[00:16:06] jock culture and college and all that stuff to know that if you get

[00:16:10] a bunch of men together that are drinking and they're not supposed to be,

[00:16:13] and it's just all my bad decisions in my life.

[00:16:16] And I've had about three or four incidents.

[00:16:18] None of them didn't involve alcohol.

[00:16:20] They were just all like me being kind of in the wrong place at the wrong time,

[00:16:24] but also drinking with a bunch of people.

[00:16:26] And it gets kind of brushed under the carpet as boys will be boys.

[00:16:29] You're blowing off steam and you have older men who remember being that age

[00:16:33] and going, yeah, they're just doing this and it gets dismissed.

[00:16:36] And really it sets the precedence for some people.

[00:16:39] Like when I was drinking, you know, when I did the whole thing,

[00:16:42] I remember thinking this is the only time in my life I'm ever going to do this.

[00:16:45] There was nothing like even alcohol in my life today.

[00:16:49] It's just not something I particularly enjoyed.

[00:16:52] My body handles well.

[00:16:54] Maybe I'm lucky for that or whatever reason.

[00:16:56] I just, it just didn't work well with me.

[00:16:58] I didn't get up feeling good about it, but other people can just keep doing it

[00:17:01] and I couldn't.

[00:17:02] And I think it sets the precedent for bad behaviors going forward.

[00:17:06] So I just hear all these things and all of them involve alcohol.

[00:17:09] And that isn't meant to dismiss the story from episode seven,

[00:17:14] how people handled it, how people were out for their own hides,

[00:17:16] how no one really stepped up and took responsibility and all that stuff.

[00:17:19] I just think if alcohol, anyway, that was kind of my question to-

[00:17:23] Yeah. Yeah, no, I definitely think it has an impact.

[00:17:26] And I mean, frats are the ones that control the underage drinking scene.

[00:17:31] Like if you want to drink, you're going to the frat at most schools.

[00:17:34] And so I definitely think it has a huge impact.

[00:17:38] And I wish that there wasn't this pressure to go, go, go, drink, drink,

[00:17:43] drink because you might get caught or your RA can't see or whatnot.

[00:17:48] I think it would be a lot more relaxed if we could just drink casually.

[00:17:54] And if something happens, it's not such a big deal to say we were drinking.

[00:18:00] Right. Because so much so we don't want to give away the episodes.

[00:18:03] I think it's really important people listen to the episode that will have dropped by the time

[00:18:06] this drops. Can you recap it without giving it away so people know what to expect and also

[00:18:14] give them the trigger warning necessary? Because it is probably one of the most upsetting,

[00:18:18] heartbreaking things I've ever listened to in a podcast ever.

[00:18:22] Yeah. Yeah, totally. So I would say the trigger warning is just like

[00:18:28] negligence and just pure disregard for human life.

[00:18:35] Yeah, it's really hard to wrap your head around what happens in the episode, but

[00:18:41] some of you listeners may know the story already of Tim Piazza at Penn State

[00:18:47] and how he was killed essentially from an injury that, well, I don't know.

[00:18:55] I would say he was killed by the negligence. He could have been OK from the injury if he had gotten

[00:19:02] help. But yeah, it's a horrific, horrific story. And there's a lot behind the scenes too,

[00:19:11] because this was supposed to be like this was Penn State's model for Trinity. They had a

[00:19:16] live-in advisor. They had cameras. They were literally one Penn State's chapter of the year,

[00:19:28] the year before. And so it's very interesting to see how the university

[00:19:37] handles the situation and how it just all plays out with the cover up initially of

[00:19:45] not calling for help to then the cover up of no one really saw consequences and Penn State

[00:19:54] kind of just pushed it under the rug as they do. This podcast wouldn't happen without our

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[00:22:06] ads.com. Break time's over people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit KULTI.

[00:22:15] It's a good one. That is actually one of my questions since recording the episode and now

[00:22:23] still nobody has faced consequences? No. Oh, it's just, it's so hard. The story itself is

[00:22:30] so heartbreaking, especially like as a mother and picturing like my son going through any

[00:22:34] of that or any, you know, just as a human as well and just being so irate at how it was handled

[00:22:42] completely. And so much of this, so much because they were afraid to get in trouble.

[00:22:47] Right. Because they didn't even get in trouble, which is the crazy part.

[00:22:51] I know. And I was like, oh, at least it's captured on camera and it's all there. So

[00:22:57] they'll be held accountable at least. But no, they haven't been held accountable.

[00:23:01] And you can imagine that what happens when there isn't camera evidence.

[00:23:08] It's like how many of these things have happened historically, you know, with no

[00:23:12] camera evidence? Yeah. And the brothers won't say what happened. Like at Clemson University,

[00:23:19] there was a hazing death and I believe there were 28 brothers there that saw

[00:23:24] him die or knew what exactly what happened. And they won't talk to this day. There's like

[00:23:31] a hundred thousand dollar reward for anyone who will say what happened because it's,

[00:23:37] it's organized crime. Like it's such a mob mentality that to this day, like they won't

[00:23:45] say what happened. And it's this, it's a whole thing. And it was completely just pushed

[00:23:50] under the rug because like the governor's son was one of the guys. And so that's what

[00:23:58] happened. Do you think they were paid off? I don't know. I probably, I don't know. But

[00:24:03] the common theme in these hazing deaths is that the perpetrators are coming from very wealthy,

[00:24:12] powerful families. And it just is swept under the rug. That's what stood out to me as well.

[00:24:20] Is that just like you followed the money when you follow the power and who's in control,

[00:24:24] that even if it does get to the judicial system, because it's such a network of old boys club

[00:24:31] type of relationship, many of whom were even in the fraternity that are protecting the other,

[00:24:36] it's like men protecting boys because of the bond of the fraternity, which is really hard for me to

[00:24:42] have my head around because I don't have that. Like I can't, but that's like, it's like

[00:24:46] Illuminati shit in some ways. It's like next level secret, secret society and things going

[00:24:55] on. They're protected by everyone. House of cards, the government. And it's hard because

[00:25:02] when I was making these episodes, the hazing episodes specifically, I would think to myself

[00:25:08] who is liable? Because the hazers are also victims because they were hazed and the advisor,

[00:25:19] the live in advisor was encouraging this behavior. It's the culture. Right. And so

[00:25:26] I don't think all the blame should be on the hazers. I really think

[00:25:33] the conclusion that I've come to is that I think most of the blame should be on the fraternity

[00:25:38] and the school. Think about it. Think about it. We have an education Institute, right? A

[00:25:43] university that knows and condones an abusive culture. And these are our education institutes.

[00:25:51] These are people that are supposed to put people out into the world and have a societal

[00:25:56] function. And they know that this stuff goes on and it's an antiquated model at best. And

[00:26:02] they don't do anything about it because it's probably part of the university's lure. Some

[00:26:07] people go to the university because, Oh, I want to have this fraternity life. And the

[00:26:12] responsibility of universities to educate. And what does it say about our education systems

[00:26:16] when they're not educating? And in fact, they're fostering more abuse of people. So

[00:26:20] that's a hard pill for them to swallow. And it goes against their brand. These state universities,

[00:26:25] their fraternities are part of their lore. So I agree. I'm not dismissing 19, 20 year old kids

[00:26:33] who are all of a sudden thrust into a situation of, Hey, I went out to a party and I found

[00:26:37] myself in a situation. Do I call 911 when I don't know the kid's drunk or whatever?

[00:26:42] I think that's a tough situation for those kids to be in. And then all of a sudden have

[00:26:47] a friend or someone die. Like I don't, it's rare that you're going to see someone step up

[00:26:52] and do the right thing. And although they should, the universities have an atmosphere

[00:26:57] where you drop your kid off and either way they're faced with that set of circumstances.

[00:27:02] And if it keeps happening, I think the universities have to step in and set a precedent.

[00:27:06] Yeah, yeah, I agree. And then we see in the episode that one person who

[00:27:12] wanted to call for help. Who was such a brave badass and I please pass on my regards to him.

[00:27:18] I was like, Oh, what a good guy. What happened with him?

[00:27:21] Yeah. I mean, we just see how the person that genuinely could have been the person

[00:27:27] to call for help couldn't because of the systems that they have where, you know, he had,

[00:27:36] he wasn't on the executive board. He was a newly initiated member. Like it's a different world.

[00:27:43] Yeah. He didn't have the power to make the decision.

[00:27:45] Right.

[00:27:46] And isn't there also video footage of him trying to say something and then somebody

[00:27:50] pushes him against a wall? Yeah.

[00:27:52] Like I probably would have done the same thing. I don't know if I would have done

[00:27:55] differently. Right. What pushed someone against the wall?

[00:27:58] No, no. I mean like backed off. Like if I'm not in a position of power in this hierarchy

[00:28:03] and I'm like, and I'm trying to do the right thing and then they're like, no, we got it.

[00:28:06] I'm like, okay, well, you know better. I did, I did what I, you know, I'd said my concerns.

[00:28:11] I mean, I'd like to think I'd be the person to call 911. I'm just saying,

[00:28:15] I'm just saying I can understand how in that structure you wouldn't.

[00:28:19] Either way, it's a horrible situation. Oh, I feel nauseous. It's nauseating.

[00:28:23] Yeah. So as parents, could you see yourself when the college process comes?

[00:28:30] Do you, how would, how would you go about it with the schools that have Greek life?

[00:28:35] Like, would you let your kids apply? I'm really working on not controlling

[00:28:40] and many children, but I would, I would do my best to educate him so he could make

[00:28:45] an informed decision. Yeah. And I'd be very upset. Here's what I would tell you.

[00:28:48] And this is, this was my situation in college. I got recruited by this fraternity

[00:28:54] that was mostly a bunch of the guys on the football wrestling team. And, and, and I just

[00:28:59] didn't want to go into a situation where people were going to be treating me like shit.

[00:29:03] And I didn't want to live with the same kind of guys that I hung out with

[00:29:07] all the time. And I think you go to college to experience a lot of different people.

[00:29:10] If you get in a fraternity or something like that, you're going to make it a narrow experience.

[00:29:14] And if you like being treated like shit and you like treating other people like shit to be

[00:29:18] a part of something and go for it, but I didn't like it. And I wasn't going to be,

[00:29:22] wasn't going to be treated like that. And I didn't need to do that. And it didn't seem like fun to

[00:29:27] me. And I think if he still wants to do it after that, then I don't know if I'm going to stop him,

[00:29:32] but I'll give them, I'll give them your podcast to listen to.

[00:29:36] Yeah. I mean, this is the thing. What I've, what I've learned is that we,

[00:29:39] we don't say, no, you can't do this. We say, here's why we didn't, here's why we

[00:29:46] wouldn't. And we try to educate because I feel like when you tell, when you give kids

[00:29:50] rules without the why behind it, it makes them, especially when kids are individuating.

[00:29:55] And I know this happened to me, like people like, Oh, I wouldn't take that training.

[00:29:59] That looks really expensive. I'm like, well, you don't know shit because you don't understand,

[00:30:03] you know, like there's a, there's, there is a real defiance that occurs when kids

[00:30:06] individuate. So I'm hesitant to say, to set a rule about it, but I would definitely do

[00:30:11] whatever I could to educate just like, Oh, you know, educate him on about drinking and

[00:30:16] drugs and, you know, which we already kind of started. You know, he's nine.

[00:30:21] Yeah. Would you pay though? Would you pay the dues?

[00:30:24] No, no. So you would say you have to pay the dues.

[00:30:28] Yeah. I said, I'm not participating. I would say I'm not participating in that.

[00:30:31] Right. I would find it very wild if Troy did that only because like some of the things

[00:30:38] that were pretty adamant about, like we don't do a lot of sugar. We don't do video games.

[00:30:43] Troy's like, I don't play video games. Like, and I've shared, he's like, I just don't do it.

[00:30:47] It's like a way I've got better things to do. Life is out here. All of his friends are into

[00:30:51] Nintendo switch. And he was like, I don't do that. So I feel like I'm not worried.

[00:30:56] Yeah. I feel like, and sometimes he'll be like, Oh, mama, I got a football game

[00:31:01] tomorrow. I probably shouldn't have this dessert. And I was like, that's good call,

[00:31:04] Troy. Like I just, we try to, we try to lead by example as best as we can

[00:31:09] and not be controlling rule bound parents because we know how that goes.

[00:31:14] Right. I feel good about us as parents and I'm not worried about it, but yeah, like I would

[00:31:18] show him documentaries. I mean, we've been trying to keep it age appropriate, but educating

[00:31:23] about all these things. I mean, he knows, he knows what a cult is. He knows, yeah. He

[00:31:28] knows that Keith is behind bars and he knows we've talked, he knows what manipulation is

[00:31:34] even to the point where he's like, mom, you're being manipulated. Don't force me to do

[00:31:38] something I don't want to do. I'm like, you're right. You're right. I'm being coercive,

[00:31:42] trying to get you to go to the street fair with me this Sunday.

[00:31:46] Fuck. He calls me on it. So like, it's good. And I have to own it. I'm like,

[00:31:50] you're right. I was trying to force you to do something you didn't want to do. And

[00:31:53] I apologize. I won't. I'm going by myself. Yeah. You know, so we're, you know, yeah,

[00:32:00] we're trying to be as best parents as we can. Do you mind if I switch gears into the

[00:32:04] questions from our Patreon? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So Allie Y says, this is a conversation

[00:32:09] I've been curious about since I started following the pod as someone who pledged through a H

[00:32:13] program. Hellenic. Is that what it means? What does it say? I thought that it says H star

[00:32:18] program. H star. There's like a little asterix. Don't know. Hellenic maybe. Panhellenic maybe.

[00:32:26] Okay. So someone who pledged through a program, H program and later to fight for

[00:32:30] alumni support as I and others led new classes into my sorority with a more empathetic

[00:32:33] approach to team building. I'd love to hear Lucy's thoughts on why the older sisters would want to

[00:32:37] push back on modifying pledge programs and how to set up and continue to have conversations with

[00:32:42] active and alumni sisters to move away from the trauma bonding model, instead create a more

[00:32:46] safe environment to actually learn from the history of the organization, share values and

[00:32:49] form a genuine support network. Yeah, totally. It's hard because I think the trauma bonding

[00:32:57] model is part of the model and I don't know if the ones at the top, the national organization,

[00:33:06] if they really are that dark in the way that like they're intentionally,

[00:33:11] they intentionally know that and they're like, no, no, we got to like keep it,

[00:33:15] keep it, keep the hazing, keep the fear because I think that is part of what gets

[00:33:21] people to stay and what gets people to continue paying dues. So I really don't know

[00:33:26] if it is that dark at the top, but I do know that the national organizations don't want to change

[00:33:34] and that they, I mean, I know Alpha Phi, for example, their, the top of their organization

[00:33:43] created the Alpha Phi recruitment strategy, which is like, it was talked about in the

[00:33:49] season two recruitment special, but it's basically just a very racist recruitment strategy

[00:33:54] that gets all the white blonde skinny girls and they do it very kind of insidiously,

[00:34:01] but I don't know. I think they don't want it because it's, I don't know. I can't really

[00:34:09] say what they're saying at the top, but I know that they don't want to change.

[00:34:14] Right. For more background on what brought us here, check out Sarah's page turning memoir.

[00:34:22] It's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, The Cult That Bound My Life.

[00:34:26] It's available on Amazon, Audible and at most bookstores. If you want to see that story in

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[00:36:24] Break time's over people. Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit CULTI.

[00:36:28] It's a good one. And you don't think that there's really room for change?

[00:36:31] Your sort of approach is like, it's all got to go, right? Right, right. Because we see in

[00:36:36] episode four, the diversity chair, all these people who have been trying to reform the

[00:36:42] system for years. And it's like, if something like hazing wasn't integral to the model,

[00:36:47] it would have been over already. You know? Like the amount of people that have died,

[00:36:52] the amount of people that have been traumatized, like it would have been gone already.

[00:36:56] There's a reason why it's still the same. And then there's-

[00:37:01] Yeah, with one death. You can't have obedience. You can't have

[00:37:05] obedience without it. You can't have what the hazing elicits, which is like those who can't cut

[00:37:12] it. It's like us with rules and rituals. People don't like the sashes, got their money back on

[00:37:17] day one. Rules and rituals was Nextium's hazing, right? It weeded out the people that weren't

[00:37:22] going to cut it. And this is the same thing. It's like you're agreeing to go through

[00:37:27] this hazing, which everyone knows. It's just hazing. That's just part of the thing, right?

[00:37:32] But if you can't hack it, you're not going to go to the next level. So you have to figure out how

[00:37:36] to hack it. You have to figure out how to be obedient. There's also the component of you look

[00:37:40] at how companies handle, let's say you have a toaster that blows up and kills one person.

[00:37:45] That toaster is recalled. It's off the market the next day because it's bad for business.

[00:37:50] If someone goes in and gets hazed, right? And they die, the hazing is part of the product,

[00:37:57] right? That's what people sign up for. And they're not willing to admit that that's a poor model.

[00:38:01] They're not willing to take responsibility for it. It means a major inconvenience for these

[00:38:05] universities and these fraternities to go and do that. Because if one person dies in your

[00:38:10] campus from hazing, that ought to be the end of it, right? Cars recall cars, thousands of

[00:38:18] them. If there's a model that has like the brakes stuck, get it out, get it out right now.

[00:38:22] That should be the same reaction the universities have with someone dying from drinking too much

[00:38:27] alcohol and falling down the stairs. I mean, it ought to be, especially if you're spending

[00:38:32] however much to send your kid to a school there. So I don't know. I'm with you on that.

[00:38:37] And I remember after our first interview, I was him and hauling like,

[00:38:41] should you get rid of a Greek life? Maybe it's not that bad. Some people come in and

[00:38:44] have great connections for life. You can have those connections for life without hazing people.

[00:38:48] And if you need the hazing to bond you, then you might want to reevaluate how you

[00:38:52] create relationships. I don't know. That's kind of my take.

[00:38:56] Right. That is true. The last episode about the victim,

[00:39:01] Timmy. That's the end of it. That sealed the deal for me too. And what I really hope for

[00:39:07] you with this is that someone listens to it, turns it into something like gets get you onto

[00:39:13] I heart or some, or maybe even a documentary series where they take journalists, you know,

[00:39:19] not that you're not a real journalist, but like, you know, someone who's trained as a

[00:39:23] journalist and takes it to another level. You being a part of it, you being the narrator,

[00:39:27] because it's your story and you're the one who's been championing this and had the balls

[00:39:31] to champion it or whatever you want to say. Someone's going to give me shit for saying

[00:39:34] balls. You know what I mean? The foot spa, the, you know, because not many people do.

[00:39:39] I really would love for it to get exposure on a big scale and for like to have this have national

[00:39:45] coverage and really be under a microscope in a serious way. That's what I wish for you.

[00:39:52] Someone needs to be outraged. They need to be more outraged. I mean, you're outraged,

[00:39:55] but like part of the reason I did what I did with the next thing is like,

[00:39:58] hold on a second. They're branding women. Someone needs to come in and get really pissed

[00:40:01] off and say something and be really obnoxious and loud about it and ring that bell. There

[00:40:05] needs to be that equivalent in this space because it's not okay. Someone with a little bit of-

[00:40:10] Exactly.

[00:40:11] And you are, I just want it to get more, I just want more eyes on it.

[00:40:14] But it just needs a network or something behind it.

[00:40:16] Yeah. Someone who with power in that space goes, hold on a second, someone died on our

[00:40:21] watch here and this is our reaction. What are we doing as an education Institute? This isn't

[00:40:25] what any of us signed up for. This isn't a fraternity. This is a dickhead convention. Sorry.

[00:40:36] They need to talk that way. You need to be, sometimes you need to be a little bit unreasonable

[00:40:40] about these things and that's what gets attention. So I don't know. I just hearing

[00:40:44] that was just like, there's no, if my kid went to a fraternity, you get it. I don't have to

[00:40:50] be all worked up about it. It's good to be worked up about it. Yeah, you're right.

[00:40:54] What inspires change? I just think, if this stuff's going on and we're in the deep south

[00:40:58] or fraternity life is a big thing. And I get, not all of them can be like that and

[00:41:02] they can be fun and all that, but like let's check ourselves a little bit. But they all can

[00:41:07] all can be on the wrong night. Right. Yes. Anyway.

[00:41:14] Yep. Sarah Blodgett asked a question, which is basically about,

[00:41:17] cannot be changed or dismantled. I think we answered that already. Two more questions.

[00:41:22] Sammy says, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Greek life as depicted in TV and movies and

[00:41:26] how accurate or inaccurate you think it is based on your experience. And other question is

[00:41:31] how is the non-panhellenic IFC groups in terms of their corruption and drama and issues that

[00:41:35] you're covering? She says she was in a non-panhellenics sorority Tau Beta Sigma. I don't

[00:41:40] know how that's, I don't know any of this service sorority focused on the band program.

[00:41:45] Her husband was a non-IFC fraternity. Can't remember the name, but it was an honors

[00:41:48] engineering group. And none of these had the drama and issues that were in the same solar

[00:41:53] system as what you cover in the pod. So she's curious who's heard about these

[00:41:56] or they all in like a separate bubble or is it all the same thing?

[00:42:00] Yeah. Yeah. So for the first question about how sororities and fraternities are portrayed,

[00:42:06] to be honest with you, I don't think they're really portrayed that much.

[00:42:10] Like I can think of Animal House, which was a long time ago, House Bunny.

[00:42:18] I saw it once. I don't remember what happened in it. I really don't think there is a lot of

[00:42:24] media or at least popular media that depicts these groups. I don't know. Can you guys think of any?

[00:42:32] I can't name the shows, but I don't have a data bank in my head.

[00:42:34] Like my overall impression is they take the cliche impression of it and run with it.

[00:42:40] Like they'll do something like where they have the typical frat boy slipping something in the

[00:42:46] drink and joking with his buddies tonight's going to be a fun night. And it kind of

[00:42:50] oversimplifies the culture and makes it about one guy being the creep when it could be.

[00:42:56] They don't do a good job of showing the ecosystem and the culture that fosters it.

[00:43:01] And the fact that the university may even sell it. You know, their fraternity rose

[00:43:06] at colleges and they're the nicest houses on campus. Right? So that I tell you everything

[00:43:11] you need to know. So yeah, the beta theta pi house was the nicest one. The one word.

[00:43:16] Manches. Yeah. Did you say the renovation was eight million? Yeah.

[00:43:21] Like someone needs to put this money elsewhere. Dorm. Like somebody help. Yeah.

[00:43:28] Final two questions from Leah Johnson. What are the red flags girls should look for during

[00:43:32] rush? So assuming they decide to do it anyway, and how would you advise someone

[00:43:36] who, who finds that they join a toxic sorority to get out?

[00:43:40] Mm hmm. So I don't think you can, or I don't think they're going to show the red flags

[00:43:45] during rush because rush is the whole facade where they're really nice to you and they're

[00:43:51] just going to kiss your ass the whole time. Like which is sort of a red flag if you think

[00:43:55] about love bombing. Right? Yeah. I guess you're right. Yeah. But that's the thing is being

[00:43:59] nice is not necessarily it is a red flag, but isn't always necessarily mean love bombing.

[00:44:03] So how do you know when it's real nice or fake nice? I think the whole thing is just a

[00:44:07] red flag. I think the whole thing is a red flag. I don't think-

[00:44:14] Just the fact that you have to compromise yourself and appease these other people to

[00:44:18] get in a secret club. Like secret clubs to me were always like, nah, I don't know. I don't

[00:44:23] want to hang out with it. Secret clubs are well secrets are bad. I mean, this is one

[00:44:27] of the things we're back to the Troy question. Like we're trying to teach him if someone ever

[00:44:31] says to you, this is a secret, that's come and tell us immediately. Like there should be no

[00:44:35] secrets. The secret. So it's always mean there's something being hidden or something bad being

[00:44:39] kept. Like there's nothing good about being secret. People like the secret idea because

[00:44:43] it's like a secret, you know, being a part of a secret club sounds alluring, but why?

[00:44:47] Like why is that better than an out in the open club? I don't know. Yeah. He feels special.

[00:44:54] So that's a red flag feeling special. Like do you feel, yeah. Do you feel,

[00:44:58] do you feel better than other people? Right. Or less than. Yes. Or less than because

[00:45:03] you're not part of the thing. Are they making you feel less than or more than?

[00:45:07] And yeah, so love bombing, do they, are they, does it feel authentic or does it feel?

[00:45:12] Cause you could be, you could be welcomed into a group on it. That's, that's a real genuine

[00:45:16] welcome, but that's not necessarily part of the, that's not part of the sorority.

[00:45:21] The sorority basically you're saying it's all fake. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even if like the

[00:45:28] person that you're having a conversation with, like, yeah, you could be having a genuine

[00:45:31] conversation, but the circumstances involved, like the fact that you have to straighten your

[00:45:37] hair to go meet and talk to that person, or at least you have to, you feel pressured that you

[00:45:43] have to straighten your hair. Right. So are you being the authentic you? Do you feel like you

[00:45:47] have to change yourself to fit in? That's a red flag. Do you know, is there, is there

[00:45:53] requests for lots of money? And, and, and if you ask where it goes, do you get gaslit

[00:46:00] or shamed? I'm just throwing it out there based on what you've, what I've heard.

[00:46:03] You're probably so in it. You're like, it's all a mess. Yeah. Right. It feels like a little bit.

[00:46:09] Yeah. Totally. Okay. What? Okay. So what if they find out, okay, I joined a group.

[00:46:13] I thought it was a good one. Turns out it's toxic. I got to get out. What's your advice?

[00:46:17] Rule number one, do not sign the housing contract. Don't live in the house. If you can,

[00:46:25] those contracts are really strict or, but if you can get a school counselor or someone even to just

[00:46:33] advocate for you that you cannot live in the house, don't live in the house because

[00:46:38] that's something that gets you further into the group. Yes.

[00:46:44] Smart. Yeah. And I would say disaffiliate in the safest way that you can. If you feel like

[00:46:51] you need to just like, if, if in the moment you need to blame it on yourself, do what makes you

[00:46:57] feel safe. Like I said, I am leaving because of my, my mental health, you know, like I blamed

[00:47:04] it on myself. And at that moment, that was the safest thing I felt for me to do. And I

[00:47:08] don't regret saying that because I got to kind of just like tip toe away without them bullying

[00:47:14] me more. Right. But say what you need to say and then figure out the truth of the narrative.

[00:47:22] Later. Yeah. Sick pet, sick relative. That always works, right? Right. Nobody can, yeah,

[00:47:28] nobody can contest that. Go be with your relative. Right. All right. Those are some

[00:47:32] good tips. I almost feel like this is for the main feed, but we're going to have you back

[00:47:36] once the episode's out and do a deeper dive into the cover up at Penn State,

[00:47:42] which we hope everyone listens to. And we're almost at an hour, so let's wrap it unless

[00:47:47] there's anything else you want our listeners to know. Don't join. You and us both.

[00:47:54] Don't join. Thanks Lucy. Thank you for your time, Lucy. Keep it up. We're putting it out

[00:47:59] there to the cultivar's and the universe that someone needs to scoop this up and get it on the,

[00:48:04] I don't know, major media feeds. Keep it up babe. You like what you hear? Please do give us

[00:48:12] a rating, a review and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen. Every little bit helps us

[00:48:17] get this cult awareness content out there. Smash that subscribe button. You know what to do.

[00:48:25] So that was our Patreon bonus drop with Lucy Taylor from a while ago that we've unlocked

[00:48:29] this week for everybody. But if you join us on Patreon again, you'll get early access

[00:48:33] to our bonuses and four episodes every month for just five bucks. Come chill with us over

[00:48:38] on Patreon. Cool vibes. You know what I mean? Culty vibes maybe? No, not culty at all.

[00:48:44] We'll be back soon with new episodes and until then don't join a frat or a sorority.

[00:48:48] Use that joke twice now. That's okay. Repetition for emphasis. Take ballroom dance lessons or join

[00:48:55] the marching band or an acapella group. Although those things can also get culty too.

[00:49:00] Although we've never heard of a culty marching band. Actually, that's not true.

[00:49:04] I have somebody reported that from the West coast in Portland. Maybe coming soon.

[00:49:09] Portland. Acapella? Super culty. Kettle black. Every group is culty. Anyway,

[00:49:15] just don't pledge your rush or whatever the hell it's called. Let us know what you think

[00:49:19] over on Instagram and see you next week. Bye.

[00:49:29] Thanks for listening everyone. We're heading over to patreon.com slash a little bit culty now

[00:49:47] to discuss this episode. In the meantime, dear listener, please remember this podcast is solely

[00:49:52] for general informational educational and entertainment purposes. It's not intended

[00:49:57] substitute for real medical legal or therapeutic advice for cult recovery resources and to learn

[00:50:03] more about seeking safely in this culty world. Check out a little bit culty.com slash

[00:50:07] culty resources and don't miss Sarah's Ted talk called how cult literate are you great

[00:50:12] stuff. A little bit culty is a trace 120 production executive produced by Sarah Edmondson

[00:50:17] and Anthony Nipty Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at citizens of sound

[00:50:22] and our co-creator and show chaplain slash bodyguard just temple tardy and our theme

[00:50:26] song cultivated is by John Bryant.