Surviving Wild Wild Country: Erin Robbins Speaks Out On Osho Horrors

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: This winter, take your icon pass north. North to abundant access. To powder-skiing legacy. To independent spirit.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: North where easy to get to. Meets worlds away. Go north to Snow Basin. Now on the icon pass.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_08]: The views and opinions expressed by a little bit culty are those of the hosts and do not necessarily

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_08]: reflect the official policy or position of the podcast. Any content provided by our guests,

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_08]: bloggers, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_08]: religion, group, club, organization, business individual, anyone or anything.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Welcome to A Little Bit Culty, a podcast about what happens when something that seems like a great

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_08]: thing at first goes to the dark side and takes you with it. I'm your host, Sarah Edmondson.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm also your host, Anthony Ames, aka Nippy. Sarah and I met on love in a quote self-help

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_04]: organization that turned out to be a mega cult cult nexium. Heard of it? We got out of there together

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and on our way out we helped shut it down. Our journey as nexium whistleblowers was captured

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_04]: in detail on a docu-series called The Vow on HBO and also on the front page of a newspaper.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_08]: New York Times, babe. Right. Have you heard of it? Each week on A Little Bit Culty,

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_08]: we talk with other former cult members and whistleblowers plus experts in things like

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_08]: cultic abuse and coercive control. We also turn the mic over to advocates and clinicians

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_04]: with wisdom to share on recovering from everything from MLMs and toxic religion to bad romances

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_08]: with raging narcissists. There's always something to learn about the cultiverse.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Be sure to subscribe to A Little Bit Culty so you don't miss an episode.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Find us on Instagram and at ALittleBitCulty.com.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Hey everybody, welcome back. Season 4.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_08]: We didn't really take much of a break there, did we now? Nope.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Partly that's because we didn't want to wait. We have so much incredible content for you

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_08]: coming up in season 4. Today we have a brave survivor from the OSHO community who's coming

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_08]: forward after almost 45 years of silence. In upcoming episodes, we'll be doing deep dives

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_08]: talking about Greek life on college campuses, orthodox Judaism, Jehovah's Witnesses, corporate

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_08]: culture and even a secret society in upper-crest New York circles that might be a super freaky

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: sex cult. Corporate culture. That's the one that gets me now.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_08]: So much culty shit to cover. And truthfully, I find them all interesting.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_08]: But this one in particular, I gotta say, serious trigger warning.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to be talking about some really dark stuff including sexual abuse of children.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_08]: So please do not listen to this with your kids around.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Our guest today has a heartbreaking and important story.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_04]: So the support we've received in the first three seasons from Austin to online has been so amazing.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Sarah and I, we talk about it continuously and it's restored our faith.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And we love the opportunity to pay it forward for others.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_04]: We think being able to share the truth in the way that we have is one of the things that will bring people together.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And truth, I think, saves the world. And doing it sometimes comes with slings and arrows.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And this story here to me is one of the more brave ones that we've had because it's someone who's come to terms with what's happened to them late in life.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_04]: There's really no reason to do it except for the fact that I think truth was knocking on her conscience.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And to be able to create a platform for her to do that, considering how tough this is and triggering it as it will be.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's important because a lot of people get into these groups and the pursuit of truth because the person attracting them claims to have it.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_04]: At some point, the collective leadership loses sight of that or they never had it with their real goal in mind anyway.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_04]: So always reconciling the delusion you have to eat some humble pie.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And we've done that and created this platform and Aaron has trusted us with her story so we take that very seriously.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_04]: So thank you everyone who's made this possible and the support that we've had going forward.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Hopefully we can make it bigger and bring more truth.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Well said. And I feel really honored that our guest today, whose name is Aaron Robbins,

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_08]: trusts us to use a little bit culty to expose the truth about her former master.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Aaron Robbins wasn't actually in Wild Wild Country, the 2018 Netflix docu-series about the controversial Indian guru Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh, also known as Osho.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_08]: She lived the Wild Wild Country in real time and she wasn't just one of the many Osho devotees also known as Sinyasans.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_08]: She was part of his innermost circle.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_04]: She discovered his teachings as a 20-something in 1978.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And by the time he summoned her to his bedroom, barely a year later for a quote special and secret meeting,

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_04]: she thought he was the greatest spiritual master who'd ever walked the planet.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_08]: When that secret meeting with Osho turned into what Aaron describes as a vile and violating encounter, the first of many,

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_08]: she tried to let go, just as his teachings encouraged.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_08]: She also remained quiet after her name made it onto Osho's kill list of people who were to be taken out if they ever breathed the word about his many misdeeds.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Growing up both privileged and sheltered as the daughter of the co-founder and owner of Baskin Robbins Ice Cream Company,

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Aaron knew that her father was the opposter becoming one of the guru's disciples

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: and that defying her father came with the real risk of losing a significant inheritance.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_04]: But she was so enthralled by Rajneesh's promise of a world where love and joy prevailed

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_04]: that she was willing to give up her family and financial future to follow him.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Aaron gave over her life to a man who said he was God and promised heaven on earth.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Without a clue, he would turn out to lead his disciples into a world of murders, mass poisonings,

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_08]: including the single largest bioterrorist attack in United States history

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_08]: and the gross sexual violation of hundreds of children.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Aaron never spoke a word of what she'd experienced at witness while on Osho's orbit,

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_04]: not even when Netflix came knocking.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_08]: She never spoke a word about it until now, that is.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_08]: We have so much to ask her.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Here's our chat with Aaron Robbins.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Hello Aaron, welcome.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Hi Aaron.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Hello Sarah and Nippy.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_03]: How are you feeling today?

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm feeling pretty good.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Really happy to be here and really happy that you invited me to speak.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Well it's a big moment, I think, for you and the world,

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_08]: the community of people who have fallen in love, out of love with the teachings of...

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you refer to him as Osho or Bhagwan?

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_08]: There's so many names.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_03]: There's so many names.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You can use either.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It's fine.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I probably will refer to him more as Bhagwan because that's how I spoke of him,

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_03]: but Osho, Bhagwan, Bhagwan, him, whatever.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_08]: So when people listen to this podcast, they will have already heard an introduction to you

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_08]: and a little bit about the Sannyasins and the community in Osho

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_08]: and Wild World Country and all those things.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_08]: But assuming that people haven't watched that documentary

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_08]: or they don't know much about the group or Bhagwan,

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_08]: would you mind giving us a little backstory?

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_08]: And you can start with your introduction if you'd like,

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_08]: like who you were when you met him.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_08]: We really love to share with our audience.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_08]: What was the hook?

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_08]: How did you get in?

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_08]: What did you think you were getting into?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Will you take us back to the 70s when you first met him

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_08]: and how you were introduced to Bhagwan?

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I was living in Massachusetts at the time.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I was going to graduate school.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I had always been very interested in spiritual things.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I was, as a child, I was just fascinated by what was this mystery

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that was bringing life to happen?

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, what was beating our hearts?

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_03]: What the heck was going on here?

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was always really searching to find answers.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And when I was in graduate school and a friend said,

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_03]: oh, I have a friend who just came back from India

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_03]: from this incredible place.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_03]: You've got to meet her.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I was quite interested too

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_03]: because I had also been very interested in the East,

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_03]: in Eastern mysticism and spirituality.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I went to visit this friend at a farm in Maine

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and she had just come back from India.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And she was wearing orange clothes

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_03]: and she had a necklace of wooden beads around her neck

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_03]: with a big picture of her guru.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And I found it all just sort of interesting,

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_03]: a little interesting, but you know, I was curious, I would say.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So she said she wanted to show us his meditations

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and Rajneesh had been known for his techniques,

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_03]: both meditations and different therapies

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_03]: where he was really blending western psychology

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and Eastern mysticism in a pretty dynamic way

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_03]: that was attracting a lot of people,

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_03]: like thousands of people were going there

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_03]: from around the world.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I was interested.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So we did this meditation and the meditation consisted of,

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and there's three of us there, just some friends

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_03]: and we're in her farmhouse in Maine

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and we start doing the first part of the meditation

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: which was really quite evocative music

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_03]: with a strong drum beat and very heavy hyperventilating,

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_03]: breathing in and out, nostril breathing,

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_03]: really strong and using the whole body

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_03]: to get as worked up and as strong as you could.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_03]: So we did that for, I don't know, 10, 15 minutes

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_03]: and then the next stage was a total catharsis.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yell, scream, jump, cry, go crazy,

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_03]: beat the air, beat the ground.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And then after 15 minutes of that,

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I believe I could have this wrong

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_03]: because it's been many years, obviously,

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_03]: but it was jumping on our heels with our hands up in the air,

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_03]: straight up yelling, who? Who? Who?

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_03]: That for a period of time.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And then there was a period of silence.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So when I was done with the meditation or we were done,

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I felt pretty elated.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it was very invigorating

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and I felt a little bit, I don't know,

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of in a really good mellow space,

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_03]: a little bit of exhaustion, I would say,

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_03]: from the intense activity.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_03]: But then she played us a tape of Rajneesh speaking

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and his voice was absolutely hypnotic.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought at the time, beautifully hypnotic

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_03]: was very easy to listen to.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't understand all his words

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_03]: because his Hindi accent was thick,

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_03]: but he spoke in a kind of way

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_03]: that just sort of lulled me in.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't understand it all,

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_03]: but what I caught from what he was speaking

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_03]: was beautiful, like speaking about the mystery of life

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_03]: and the beauty of life and being one with all life.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was quite taken actually at that point.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought, wow, I've never met anybody like this.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I've never known anybody who seems to come from this space before.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I spent the weekend there.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_03]: She told lots of stories about the ashram.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And by the time I left,

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_03]: she handed me an orange silk shirt, a mala with his picture on it.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And she said he had told her

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_03]: that she would meet two or three people

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and he had given malas for those people

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and that she would be meeting his people

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_03]: and she would recognize them.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So since I was very interested,

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_03]: she recognized me as one of his people.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So I went home with the orange clothes

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and a photograph of him in the mala

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_03]: and six weeks later,

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I was getting off of an air India flight in Mumbai.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I had signed up for a program,

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_03]: a training program for therapists

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_03]: to learn his techniques

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_03]: and his meditations and his approach

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_03]: and to learn a radically new way of doing psychotherapy,

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03]: which really included a lot of eastern philosophy

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_03]: at Eastern Approaches and his techniques.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So I signed up for,

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it was six weeks or three months,

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, but I signed up for a program for therapists.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_03]: When I got to the ashram,

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_03]: first of all, when I got to India,

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_03]: India in the 70s was quite primitive still.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Sanitation was very poor

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_03]: and it was like being catapulted into another universe.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, walking down the streets

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_03]: in the town where the ashram was,

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean there were as many water buffalo

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and snake charmers with little men on the streets

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_03]: with cobras dancing

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_03]: and women in bright Majena saris

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_03]: with big huge things on their head.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_03]: It was so exotic to me.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And when I walked in the gate of the ashram,

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_03]: the world outside which was busy

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_03]: and intense just softened.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_03]: There was this flute music playing in the background

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_03]: in the distance from a hall somewhere on the property.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Beautiful flute music with tambourine

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and other percussion instruments,

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Eastern instruments.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And I remember walking in the gate

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_03]: and immediately being transfixed,

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_03]: immediately being just like where am I?

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody was wearing orange.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone seemed to be laughing or hugging

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_03]: or little groups of people playing music

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_03]: and dancing in little clusters, lots of hugging.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Mostly young people

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_03]: and they were from all over the world

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_03]: and I really loved that international quality.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I was really jazzed to be out of my Los Angeles

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_03]: where I had grown up, culture and in a bigger culture.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting enough after I'd been there a day

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I kind of freaked out

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and I thought, ooh this is group mind.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody's wearing the same clothes.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_03]: What's with the necklace?

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_03]: This is too weird.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to get involved in any group mind

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_03]: was how I saw it.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I took off the orange clothes that I had brought

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_03]: and I put back on my street clothes,

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_03]: my blue jeans or whatever

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and decided that I was just going to kind of

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_03]: check it out a little bit more,

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_03]: do a few more meditations and check it out.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So I did do a few more meditations

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_03]: and I listened to his speaking

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_03]: and I think it lasted about a day

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_03]: that I kept my regular clothes on

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and I was back in orange a day later.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You heard him speaking in person

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_03]: or you're still hearing tapes at this point?

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_03]: At this point when I got there

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_03]: he was speaking once a day to the public

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and usually for a couple of hours in the morning

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_03]: and then in the evening he spoke to a small group

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_03]: of people who had been invited

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_03]: for what he called Darshan

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and there was maybe 30 people or so

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_03]: who were there

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_03]: and the group in the morning was several hundred people

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_03]: who were listening to his discourses.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_03]: He spoke in English one month

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and then in Hindi one month

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_03]: and he spoke on many sutras from different traditions.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_03]: He used them as his jumping point

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_03]: and he expounded on these different sutras

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_03]: from different traditions.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I was enthralled by the scene around him.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I was enthralled by what he said.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I was enthralled by how I felt

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_03]: when I sat in the hall.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean if I could paint the picture for you

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_03]: it was like a jungle garden outside

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and then it was a patio outside of his house.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_03]: When several hundred people gathered to listen to him

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_03]: it was totally silent

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_03]: like nobody said a word until he came in.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So sitting in all we could hear was the birds

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and the insects from the garden around

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and then suddenly he came in

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_03]: in his plain white robe

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and he really to me

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_03]: he looked like the absolute picture

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03]: of a holy man from the east.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_03]: But then once he started speaking

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I just I'd never seen anybody like him.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_03]: His eyes were like deep, deep wells

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_03]: that you just fall into

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_03]: and he didn't blink very much

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_03]: so he gazed very intensely

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: and it seemed to me like I had never seen anybody

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_03]: that was as conscious and present

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and loving as him.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_03]: That was my first impression.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Before you go over there

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_04]: did you feel like your life was on a trajectory

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_04]: and then like when you're in grad school

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and you're doing the things kind of that you're trained to do

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_04]: and that we're told to do in traditional schooling

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_04]: you're on a trajectory.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes it's not that clear

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_04]: and then something like this presents itself.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you feel like you were on one trajectory

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and then when you get in this atmosphere

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_04]: and you start to have this experience

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_04]: it starts to put you on another one that's more purposeful

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_04]: or was it your curiosity that got you there

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_04]: because what you were the structure that you were on

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_04]: wasn't as fulfilling.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Does that make sense?

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it does make sense.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Just a little backstory about this.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_03]: When I was at school in California in Santa Cruz

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I was majoring in theater and in art

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_03]: and when I was painting

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_03]: and I found this with any creative experience

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_03]: painting, dancing, theater

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I was having very profound experiences

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I began to get really interested in the creative process

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and the expressive arts

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_03]: so I went to school in expressive arts therapies

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_03]: because I felt I could help people

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_03]: have this experience that I was having

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_03]: when I was immersed in the arts

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_03]: so I was on a trajectory

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I was definitely on a clear career path

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and I had not been entirely satisfied

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_03]: with the program I was in

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_03]: because it was a little bit more medical model oriented

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_03]: like they were using the expressive arts therapies

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_03]: diagnostically

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_03]: and I was really interested in the actual process

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_03]: so I was looking to expand my understanding

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_03]: of what brings people into a state of peace

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_03]: and happiness and balance in life.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_04]: So this seemed more aligned with that than what you were doing?

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, it did.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_03]: It seemed aligned and it also seemed connected

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_03]: because when I got to the ashram

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_03]: everybody was singing and dancing

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_03]: and celebrating.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_03]: That was my deal.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I just loved to dance

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I loved to sing

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_03]: and I wanted to help people in the arts.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely would have been your jam, Sarah.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I mean I've told you this before

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_08]: and I'll probably say it many times

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_08]: is that even when I saw Wild Wild Country

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_08]: I said to Nippy, you know if I'd been 18

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_08]: because I probably was, I was born in 77

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_08]: right so I was a little young for it

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_08]: but if I was a little bit older

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_08]: and I'd heard about this

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_08]: I would have been all over it

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean just from what I have seen

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_08]: in the videos

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_08]: and especially with Wild Wild Country

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_08]: and also the colors

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_08]: like I had a girlfriend in grade two

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_08]: who I think her family had relocated

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_08]: from Oregon to Vancouver

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_08]: and they were all in the colors

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_08]: and you know in the 80s

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_08]: when I was seven years old

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_08]: pink and red were my

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_08]: totally my jam

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_08]: and then my mom explained to me

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_08]: it was a religion

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_08]: and that's what the colors they wore

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_08]: and I thought that was great

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_08]: like I wanted to be a part of that

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_08]: at age seven

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_08]: because of Tui.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Amazing.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, little girl named Tui

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_08]: I wish I remembered her last name

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_08]: you may have known her parents.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Back to you.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_08]: So you're at this ashram

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_08]: you're not sure

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_08]: it's a little bit weird

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_08]: but the meditations are

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_08]: helping you

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_08]: and you're enthralled by Osho

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_08]: the hot gang and the dancing like

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_08]: so it's all there

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_08]: it sounds very utopic

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm imagining.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_03]: It was, it was pretty extraordinary

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I have to say still in my

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_03]: all my years

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and experiences

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I've never been

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_03]: in a group of people

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_03]: like that

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean we were really high

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_03]: we were high off

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_03]: off of what he was saying

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_03]: we were high off of the meditations

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_03]: we were high off being with each other

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_03]: the kind of collective energy

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_03]: it was, I don't know

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_03]: it was pulsing

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_03]: it was so alive

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_03]: and it was magnificent.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_03]: That was good

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_03]: there has to be good right

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_03]: otherwise it was good

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_03]: there was and the people

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_03]: fantastic people

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_03]: incredible people

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and music

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_03]: you know I had never heard music like that

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_03]: that music just took me to heaven

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_03]: it just took my soul

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_03]: and put me into bliss

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_03]: you know

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_03]: and the music was a big part of it there

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_08]: sounds a little bit like

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know if you've heard much about

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_08]: the ecstatic dance movement

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_08]: that's happening right now

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_03]: yes

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_08]: and I haven't done it myself

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_08]: but I've heard

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_08]: that it brings people to that state

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean I don't know

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_08]: if it's culty or problematic

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_08]: or maybe we'll do that in another episode

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_08]: but just in terms of what

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_08]: the movement does for your body

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_08]: and I've certainly been to

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_08]: other raves before in the 90s

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_08]: there was other substances

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_08]: that help

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_08]: but there's certainly levels of

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_08]: ecstasy and group

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_08]: vibration whatever you want to call that

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_08]: that can bring people to a

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_08]: different level of consciousness

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_08]: I believe

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_03]: oh absolutely

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_03]: absolutely

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_03]: it was definitely an exalted state

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_03]: that we were in most of the time

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_03]: were there drugs too or no

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_03]: not in my experience

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_03]: when I was there

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I had heard people were dealing

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_03]: drugs to make money to be

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_03]: in the ashram

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_03]: and when I think back on it

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_03]: that should have been a red flag

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_03]: that there was so much illegal

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_03]: activity that was going on

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_03]: to make it possible for people to be there

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_08]: did you move there right away

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_08]: and what was the trajectory from

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_08]: the ashram to Oregon

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_08]: for you

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_08]: can you tell us a little bit about your journey

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_03]: yes

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: so I went there

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_03]: for this training program

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_03]: for six or twelve weeks whatever it was

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_03]: at that point by then

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I did have a darshan with O'Shoh

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_03]: and he gave me my name

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_03]: my name was Ma Prem Maitri

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_03]: what does that mean?

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Prem means love

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_03]: and Maitri is friendship

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_03]: friendliness

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_03]: he explained to me when he gave me the name

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_03]: that romantic or attached love

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_03]: was really a lower form of love

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_03]: that the highest form of love

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_03]: was not attached

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_03]: was not possessive

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_03]: was a friendliness

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_03]: so I had my direct meeting with him

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and he told me to go back

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_03]: and finish my master's thesis

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_03]: and then come back

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_03]: he said I will need you

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_03]: we are going to create a new humanity

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_03]: this is a sometimes called an experiment

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_03]: to create a possibility

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_03]: for future of humanity

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_03]: that can live in an expanded high consciousness

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_03]: in love

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_03]: in celebration

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_03]: in peace

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I will need you

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_03]: so I finished my thesis

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I got my degree

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_03]: and I was on the plane the next week

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_03]: back

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_03]: and he very very quickly

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_03]: pulled me into the center of things

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_03]: he asked me to start writing

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_03]: introductions to his books

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and he asked me to start leading groups

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_03]: therapy groups

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and be part of his group of

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_03]: he had chosen

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: at that point it was still a small group of people

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_03]: who were leading workshops for people

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_03]: who came

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_03]: and he actually told people which workshops to do

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: and who they should do it with

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_03]: he placed the people in the groups

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_03]: so I stayed at the ashram then

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_03]: for the entire remainder of the time

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_03]: until he left India

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_03]: and I lived very closely

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_03]: because he brought me really close in

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_03]: invited me to extra darshan

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_03]: gave me gifts

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_03]: elevated me to be part of the elite group of people

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_03]: who he had leading workshops

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and I was young

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I was much younger than most of them actually

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_03]: but I stayed there and through

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_03]: all of that time

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_03]: which was pretty intense

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: he had a group of

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it was about nine women

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_03]: that he had selected to be his energy mediums

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_03]: in his darshan

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_03]: where he worked with people

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_03]: by giving a form of shock depot or energy

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_03]: and he used these women

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I was one of them

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_03]: as vehicles to transmit his energy

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Can you explain what that looks like?

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_03]: You know there's two

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_03]: what it looks like

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I can tell you what it looked like for me then

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and that's what it would like to me now

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Trust me I understand that

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Well yeah, you do

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So what it looked to me like then

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_03]: is oh my god

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I am being chosen

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_03]: to be close to him

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and what he was teaching

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_03]: was that

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_03]: if you wanted to become enlightened

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_03]: if you wanted to really have the highest

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_03]: possibility of human consciousness

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_03]: the way to do that

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_03]: the way to get there

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_03]: was through surrendering to him

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_03]: as the master he was

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and he explained to us

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_03]: that very rarely

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_03]: on the planet

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_03]: were born beings

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_03]: of exceedingly high consciousness

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_03]: who when they walked the earth

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_03]: those who were fortunate enough

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_03]: to gather around them

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_03]: had an opportunity

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_03]: that may only come

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_03]: every thousand lifetimes

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_03]: it was so rare

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_03]: and he said

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_03]: those of us who had gathered around him there

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_03]: in India

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_03]: he said we were

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_03]: the same group

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_03]: that had gathered around the Buddha

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_03]: 2500 years ago

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and this was our moment

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_03]: to come back

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_03]: and the Buddha was coming back

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_03]: as him basically

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and he really emphasized

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_03]: what an extraordinary opportunity this was

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and the way to do it

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_03]: because he was such a great master

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_03]: was to totally surrender

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_03]: which meant to say yes

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_03]: to everything that happened around him

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_03]: because he explained to us

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_03]: that around a master of that caliber

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_03]: everything that happens in his vicinity

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_03]: everything that happens

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_03]: is for their awakening

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_03]: that his only reason for being alive

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_03]: was to awaken us

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_08]: we tell our stories

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_08]: we change the world

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_08]: a little bit Calty is proud to support

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_08]: the hashtag I got out project

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_08]: which empowers survivors of Caltic abuse

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_08]: to share their stories online

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_08]: as a catalyst for education

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_08]: prevention and healing

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_08]: learn more about the hashtag

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_08]: I got out movement

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_08]: and find resources at

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_08]: I got out dot org

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So order Papa Murphy's limited time

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: triple-pot pizza for just $12.99 today

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Sarah you know that chicken salad I love

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_04]: my favorite place here in Atlanta

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_07]: I sure do babe

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_04]: You know I was thinking about it

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_04]: just the other day

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_07]: You were thinking about the chicken salad?

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I think about it more than I'd like to admit

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I was thinking how great it would be

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_04]: to get that level of culinary satisfaction at home

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_04]: no disrespect to you

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean I'm gonna try to not be offended

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_09]: but I get where you're coming from

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay just maybe I manifested it

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_04]: but it turns out

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_09]: He's manifesting now

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[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Did anyone learn a language in high school

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_08]: and then let it go

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_08]: and then have regrets about that later

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_08]: If you're anything like me

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_08]: then maybe you'll relate

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_08]: I did French all the way up into 12th grade

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_08]: and then I let it go

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean I lived in Montreal for a few years

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_08]: and you know practiced a bit

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_08]: but it just slipped away

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_08]: and then I found Babel

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Babel is the language learning app

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[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_08]: I've been able to get back my French

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_08]: I've actually found learning French

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_08]: to be fun again

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_08]: And c'est vrai, je parle français

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[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_08]: not computers

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[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Our team at a little bit CULTEE

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_08]: podcasts loves the Blood Ties

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_08]: podcast because it is gritty

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_08]: and current and fascinating

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_08]: It's also a little bit CULTEE

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Blood Ties, the award winning

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_08]: audio drama from Wondery

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_08]: returns for its third season

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Strange Days with another thrilling

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_08]: story about greed

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_08]: power and deception

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_08]: 5 years have passed since Eleanor

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_08]: played by Julian Jacobs of Community

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_08]: took over as CEO of the infamous

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Richland Family Empire

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_08]: alongside her half-brother Centeno

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_08]: played by Christian Navarro of 13 Reasons Why

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Together, they decide to

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_08]: invest the family fortune in a groundbreaking

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_08]: controversial new drug

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_08]: but as shocking revelations about

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_08]: the new treatment emerge Eleanor and Centeno

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_08]: go to every length to protect

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_08]: their control of the Richland Family Dynasty

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_08]: as Eleanor's father always said

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Medicine is a bloody business

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Listen to Blood Ties season 3

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Strange Days on Apple

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_08]: or you can binge the whole series

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_08]: now early and ad free

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_08]: by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_04]: app. How long

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_04]: in were you before that

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_04]: was sprung on you? And was that

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_04]: overt? Oh. Did other people know

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_04]: about that or was that something that was? It was

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_03]: overt and

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I was probably back there a couple

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_03]: months when he started calling

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_03]: me for darshons extra darshons

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_03]: and then he formed this group

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_03]: maybe I don't know some months later

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_03]: not very long at all it was very

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_03]: overt. What was so special everybody wanted

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_03]: to go to darshon as often

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_03]: as they could and we got to go every night

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I see, so it was build us something

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_03]: to covet. Oh yes. Yes.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yes. Okay. Big time. Well

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_03]: let me ask you how did it

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_03]: make you feel to be chosen?

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god. I mean

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Sarah I felt like

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean I died and gone to heaven

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean it was like I couldn't have wanted

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_03]: more I wanted when I was near

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_03]: him like in the darshons or in

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_03]: the discourses what happened

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_03]: in my body I felt ecstatic

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I was in bliss so I just wanted

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_03]: it that's all I wanted was to be

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_03]: what I said then was at his feet

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_03]: in his presence

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and I'm not speaking

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_03]: alone I know that this was the case for

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_03]: probably many women many many

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_03]: if not all if not all

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_03]: so I felt really

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_03]: seen I felt valued

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I felt respected

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_03]: and I felt acknowledged

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_03]: because I thought I must have

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_03]: some really ancient connection with

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_03]: him from past lives that

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_03]: he's choosing me for this. Right.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean there's thousands of people here

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_03]: and there's only like eight or nine women doing

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_03]: this this is like a big deal so I felt

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_03]: very very privileged and very

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_03]: honored and I felt like I understood

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_03]: it because I really did feel like I had that kind

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_03]: of deep connection with him.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_03]: But if I look at it now

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_03]: you know and I look back at it

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I say excuse my

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_03]: French but I say what the fuck

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm invited to go to this special

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_03]: meeting with the master and the

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_03]: instructions I was given is

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_03]: to wear a loose robe

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and not to wear any underwear

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Wow that's how

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_08]: it started. Wow

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_08]: so that's probably

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_08]: you didn't see it at the time but

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_08]: the first red flag. Oh I don't think

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_03]: it was the first. First big red flag

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_08]: It was a big one

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Well it sounds like

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_04]: your instincts to not wear that stuff and go

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_04]: all in with the traditions

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_04]: you had the natural resistance

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_04]: to the group think initially

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_04]: which is normal which everyone has I mean

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_08]: I think. And I don't know if we mentioned

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_08]: the outfit so everyone was an orange red

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_08]: and pink and purple is that right? Were those the

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_03]: colors? At that point it was just orange

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It was just orange. It just graduated to

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_03]: expand into purples and reds and pinks

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_03]: at that point it was just really

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_03]: orange orange. Okay. It was weird

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_08]: but so you did have the red flag

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_08]: right then? Oh yeah

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_08]: And that actually meant to ask you

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_08]: so when you just a backtrack for a second

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_08]: when you walked under the ashram and you're like I'm going to put my jeans back on

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_08]: then you decided to go

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_08]: for it again your instincts were saying

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_08]: this is weird but you decided to give it a go

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_08]: why? Because you like

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_08]: paid the money to get there and like you don't want

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_08]: to like waste it or like you just thought hey

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_08]: maybe I'm wrong

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_08]: what was your thought process

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_08]: that said hey I'm just going to give it a go

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought these people

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_03]: definitely these are my

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_03]: this is my tribe. I just felt it

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_03]: a little bit on the radical side

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_03]: a little bit unconventional

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_03]: very creative

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_03]: beautiful people

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_03]: accomplished people

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_03]: from all over the world I'm here

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I may as well get what I can out of it

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_03]: my gosh and

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_03]: and also I thought he has

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_03]: something there was something so

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_03]: enticing about

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_08]: him. Right so all those

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_08]: good things outweighed that little

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_08]: feeling in your stomach that it was weird

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_08]: and you continue

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_08]: and he invites you and makes

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_08]: you feel all the things you said

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_08]: and special what

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_08]: happened after that

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_08]: I know from Wild Wild Country

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_08]: all of a sudden they decided to pick up and move

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_08]: to Oregon. Were you

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_03]: part of that exodus? Well what

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_03]: happened and I should just say just to fill

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_03]: in the story a little bit that that period

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_03]: of these special darshans where he

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_03]: had this group of women that went on

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_03]: for a couple years every day

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_03]: and the group of women expanded and he

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_03]: tried new women were invited

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and then they were dropped but I was constant

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_03]: through the whole time

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and I was leading groups so I worked with

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_03]: thousands of people who came

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I was leading workshops with them

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_03]: when he went to

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_03]: America

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_03]: when he left the ashram one day

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_03]: it was shrouded in mystery nobody knew

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_03]: why nobody knew where he was going somebody

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_03]: said it was medical everybody kind of knew

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_03]: it wasn't Sheila had been talking

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_03]: about wanting to have the the commune

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_03]: in the states and he had wanted to

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_03]: find land in India

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_03]: we had way outgrown

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_03]: the ashram because there were thousands of people

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and it was only six acres

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_03]: we had to rent many many homes

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_03]: in the neighborhood and definitely

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_03]: needing a bigger place

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_03]: so it was very secretive

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_03]: what happened I actually

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_03]: was told by somebody in the office

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_03]: or whatever that what actually

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_03]: had happened because at that point I was living in

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_03]: his house his actual

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_03]: residence I knew and

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I was on such the end that I kind of heard

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_03]: what it was and I saw who was gone because

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_03]: some of the people from the house were gone

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_03]: we all left India and then

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_03]: they had bought the ranch

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_03]: in Oregon and it took about a year

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_03]: in this interim year

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_03]: all of the people who were the therapists

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_03]: and leading the workshops we were sent

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: to a center

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_03]: in southern California

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_03]: in Lucerne Valley and so

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_03]: people continue to do the programs

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_03]: we continued to teach because we were sort

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_03]: of making the daily bread

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_03]: we were making the money

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_03]: so we all went there and then

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_03]: after about a year once they had built

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_03]: some of the roads and enough trailers

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_03]: had been brought to the ranch for us to live in

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_03]: we went up to the ranch

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_03]: to live so you were one of the first

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I was still in the ashram even though I was

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_03]: in limbo in California and here and there

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: we were still all as a group being told

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_03]: what to do and where to go

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to just explain a little bit about

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_03]: his teaching of surrendering

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_03]: to him he stressed it deeply

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and continuously that

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_03]: surrender had to be a hundred

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_03]: percent like he kept saying

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_03]: using metaphors like water boils

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_03]: at two hundred and twelve degrees

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_03]: two hundred and ten degrees won't do it

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_03]: it doesn't work so

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_03]: surrendering to a master like this has

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_03]: to be a hundred percent right total

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_03]: he talked about saying yes

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_03]: to everything that happened

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_03]: around him and that

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_03]: was the door through which

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_03]: we would become merged

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_03]: with him and finally

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_03]: disappear as a separate person

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_03]: and become one with him and this

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_03]: enlightened consciousness

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_03]: but it could only happen

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_03]: in complete surrender

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and accepting everything so

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_03]: you know what was happening

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_03]: that throughout this whole period in India

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_03]: was that I was getting

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_03]: messages from his caretaker to come

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_03]: in the night in the middle of the night

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_03]: at first I didn't know why

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_03]: but he would have me take

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_03]: off my clothes and

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_03]: touch me and there was

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of sexual I don't know how to say this part

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_08]: however you feel comfortable

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_08]: saying it and you can say things

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_08]: or not say it right I think

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_08]: what's important here is that

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_08]: up until now

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_08]: and I think this is important to note is something with

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_08]: like Wild Wild Country it left certain things

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_08]: ambiguous or didn't include

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_08]: what you're about to

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_08]: share which is that he

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_08]: abused you he abused you

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_08]: he sexually abused you

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_08]: did he ask you if you were

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_03]: no no never the

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_04]: pretenses of surrender

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_04]: or is the initial abuse

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah I mean and I've thought about

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_03]: it so many times since then if I

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_03]: had gone into a room with

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_03]: a man twice my age who

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_03]: the minute I walked in the room he told me to take

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_03]: my clothes off I would have been if I

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_03]: had had my senses about me I would have been out the door

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_03]: faster than you could say hello

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean right but you were groomed

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't no I took my clothes off

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I did what he said

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_03]: he said come close to me I went close to

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_03]: him I did what he asked of

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_03]: me and those meetings including

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_03]: the sexual abuse went on

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_03]: throughout those years in

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_03]: India and I continued

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_03]: to hold it because he had told me never

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_03]: to tell anyone I held it

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_03]: in myself that it was this very

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_03]: profound incredible

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_03]: connection I had with him that

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_03]: was I didn't talk to anybody about

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_03]: it fact I didn't really talk to anybody

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_03]: about it for over 40 years

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I would like to circle back later to

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_08]: how you decided to tell

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_08]: people about it yeah yeah so the

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_08]: only other person that knew was his caretaker

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_08]: because she brought

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_08]: you to him at that time in India

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_03]: yes did you two ever talk

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_03]: about it no you know

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_03]: we all didn't talk to each

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_03]: other much

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_03]: we only talked about the work we were doing

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_03]: and past the

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_03]: the doll at dinner or whatever

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_03]: first of all we were working all the

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_03]: time like I don't know 14 some

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_03]: hours a day maybe more plus

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_03]: there were the darshans and the discourses

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_03]: and everything and so there wasn't time

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and when we did have time we were so tired

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_03]: that we just fell asleep the relationships

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_03]: that I thought were

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_03]: they are close in a

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_03]: feeling way but they were never developed

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_03]: we didn't really have time to talk with each other

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_03]: much he was very specific

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_03]: with this group of women who were the mediums

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_03]: that we were specifically told

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_03]: never to discuss our experiences in darshan

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_03]: with each other either by him yes

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_03]: you were siloed strategically

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_03]: yes that's so hard

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_03]: so then to get back to your

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_03]: question about going to Oregon just to kind

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_03]: of get the trajectory of how things

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_03]: went down so we all went to Oregon

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and the day I got

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_03]: there that night sure enough

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I got a message this time it was from Sheila

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_03]: who had taken over as secretary

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and to come see him

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and that started up again

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_03]: and it wasn't as often

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03]: in the years at the ranch in Oregon but it was

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_03]: continuous for those who don't know

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_08]: or who haven't watched Wild Wild Country

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_08]: can you tell our audience

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_03]: who Sheila is? Sheila was his secretary

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_03]: from

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it must have been about 1980

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_04]: give or take it was roughly that

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_04]: because she was married 13 years and then I think when he died

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_04]: things when she went into the

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_04]: official secretary role wasn't that right

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_08]: sir yeah from the documentary

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_08]: what was your relationship like with her with Sheila

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_04]: ooh

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Sheila did not like

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_03]: anyone who had personal access

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_03]: to Osho at all

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_03]: she was an intensely she was

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_03]: very jealous and

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_03]: it was very obvious to everybody

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_03]: so she hated me while I

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_03]: was in India he had me write a book

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_03]: about the experience of being a disciple

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_03]: and she one day toward

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_03]: the end just before they flew off to

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_03]: the US she asked me for

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_03]: all my copies of it and silly

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_03]: me I didn't think about it but I gave

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_03]: it to her we didn't have computers back then

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_03]: we had carbon paper and typewriters

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_03]: so I gave her my copies of it

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and she later told me that she burned it

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_03]: ah

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_03]: two years of work she would do anything

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_03]: she did not like me at all

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_04]: no the arrogance that

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_04]: she exudes in the documentary

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_04]: while it may be like cute

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_04]: and get the Osho movement

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_04]: going and stuff like that anyone who's that

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_04]: arrogant is doomed to destroy whatever they touch

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah her arrogance was so hard to take

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_03]: oh my god

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_04]: oh my god the lack of self

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_04]: awareness where she is

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_04]: cast herself as this righteous

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_04]: person and so

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_04]: overtly arrogant so you know

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_08]: obviously you're there for a long time

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_08]: and can you tell us some of the

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_08]: things before you

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_08]: laughed and some other things that you

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_08]: saw there that you didn't

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_08]: understand were problematic

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_08]: like the red flags that you missed

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_08]: because of

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_08]: your belief in who he

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_08]: was maybe perhaps clouding that judgment

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_08]: because you didn't have the

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_08]: full picture yet

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I found that we always

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_03]: had to capitalize H

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_03]: when we wrote he it was always in

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_03]: capital he

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_03]: capital H he that used to get in

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_03]: my stomach at the beginning

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_03]: but then I got used to it but I would say that should have been a red flag

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_03]: he had a

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_03]: perspective what I understood from him

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and many of us did was about

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_03]: children that should have been a red flag

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_03]: because he was professing

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_03]: to be interested in the future

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_03]: of humanity but yet he said

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_03]: that children were a distraction

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_03]: to our awakening and to

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_03]: our relationship with him

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_03]: having children was discouraged

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_03]: people who are pregnant were

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_03]: suggested to have abortions

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_03]: people who had children were

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_03]: suggested to keep their children

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_03]: with their ex spouses in their other

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_03]: country that they basically leave

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_03]: their children to be with him

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and many people were suggested

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_03]: it was encouraged

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and strongly encouraged to get sterilized

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_03]: so many young women

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_03]: and men were sterilized

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_03]: and I thought about this with you Sarah

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_03]: with your branding that you

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_03]: had and when I first

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_03]: saw and heard your story

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought oh my god I have a scar too

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_03]: under my navel

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_03]: from where I was sterilized

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_03]: at age 25

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_03]: oh my god Erin I didn't know that

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_03]: so sorry

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_03]: children were

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_03]: definitely seen as a distraction

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and I did not put it together

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_03]: that how does this work

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_03]: if you're interested in the future of humanity

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_03]: and then you give no supervision

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_03]: no value to the kids

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_03]: you consider them a distraction

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_03]: the kids who were there

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_03]: they did not get good care

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_03]: they were basically ignored

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_03]: there was a little bit of a school

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_03]: something going on but the kids

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_03]: really had it rough

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_03]: and what I didn't know at the time

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_03]: but I have come to learn now

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_03]: is that those kids that were brought

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_03]: by their parents

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_03]: for the most part were not allowed to live in the ashram

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_03]: they lived in huts around

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_03]: but those who did live there

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and that were part of the scene there

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_03]: while all the adults were busy

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_03]: we were busy singing

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_03]: exotic love songs

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_03]: to God you know singing hallelujah

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_03]: in groups of thousands of us

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_03]: over and over and meanwhile while we were busy doing that

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_03]: the kids were being raped

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_03]: continuously

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_03]: heinously

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I heard a report recently from one girl

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_03]: who she said before she was 13

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_03]: she made a list she had slept

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_03]: with over a hundred

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_03]: adult men from the ashram

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_03]: before she was 13

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_03]: how is this kept secret

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean the wild wild country

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_04]: the doc doesn't go into any of that

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_03]: that's my question too

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I have no idea

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_03]: well no I shouldn't say I have no idea

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_03]: because they hadn't spoken much about it yet

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_03]: it's just new

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_03]: it's just like in the last

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_03]: very short period of time

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that those kids who were brought

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_03]: who were either born there

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_03]: or they came with their parents there

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_03]: they just started to speak out

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_03]: about their experiences

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_03]: they are naming people and they are

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_03]: but they are not contributing it

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_03]: to bukwan or to osha

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_03]: they are really just seeing their experiences

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_03]: which I understand because they were

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_03]: never interested in osha

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_03]: no they weren't there for osha

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_03]: their parents brought them

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_04]: was sheila and the lawyer

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I believe his name is peter

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_04]: is that his name

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_04]: would they have known about this

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_04]: so they are on that documentary

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_08]: it doesn't surprise me that sheila would

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how they wouldn't

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean sheila seems to be

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_08]: but the lawyer seemed

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean I don't

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_08]: he seemed legitimately

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's possible to go through that experience

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_08]: and not know about it especially if you don't have kids

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_03]: well he has

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and I can't really say what he knew

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_03]: or what he didn't know

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_03]: but what I knew was

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I saw grown men with young kids

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I actually thought maybe they were

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_03]: being like father figures

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_03]: because we were supposed to all be aunties

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and uncles to the kids

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_03]: because osha had said

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_03]: you know it's better for the kids not to live

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_03]: with their parents it's better if they don't see them

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_03]: very often then when they

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_03]: see them it will be good they shouldn't see them

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_03]: regularly so I just

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_03]: thought that these older guys were being uncles

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_03]: to the young girls I didn't that I didn't

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_03]: know until later

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_03]: you know and also it

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_08]: answers something from me erin I don't know if I told you this

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_08]: but there's I'm not going to say her name

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_08]: but there's a woman who's still loyal to keith

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_08]: who I found out

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_08]: after we left because I was so surprised

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_08]: when people stayed when everything came out

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_08]: and it turns out she was raised

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_08]: as an yasin I'm guessing she's my

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_08]: age is probably like early 40s

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_08]: and mid 40s maybe and yeah her mom

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_08]: her mom was there and

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_08]: she has even said publicly

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_08]: she was in DOS but she wasn't branded

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_08]: and she wished she had been branded because she wanted

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_08]: to have that homage

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_08]: to her master keith

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_08]: kind of makes sense to me now because I

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah she was obviously

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_08]: groomed for this abuse

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah you know talking to you part

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_03]: of the reason this was so hard for me to

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_03]: come and to speak publicly like this is I

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_03]: do have fear because

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_03]: the stuff that happened was so heinous

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and so appalling

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_03]: that I do have fear of speaking publicly

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_03]: about these things that the people who are

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_03]: at the helm of the osho

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_03]: organizations might for

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_03]: retribution or you know I don't know

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_04]: well it's a way more powerful organization

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_04]: than in nexium ever was

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_04]: oh yeah still is

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_04]: sarah and I were certainly afraid when

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_04]: they cranked up their litigation

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_04]: machine against us but this is also a different

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_08]: era too don't forget Aaron

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_08]: like this is the era when people are

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_08]: speaking their truth and telling their stories

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_08]: any retaliation against you

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_08]: will clearly it'll be

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_08]: seen for what it is and

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_08]: your light wins you know we've

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_08]: always believed that truth wins love wins

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_08]: hey cultie listeners

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_08]: lovers of cult busting content

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_08]: alb sears

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_08]: culti kids

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_08]: we've gotten a lot of requests to put up

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_08]: a link where people can throw some funds up behind

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_08]: the podcast and help support what a little

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_08]: bit cult is doing and you know what that's

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_08]: a great idea thank you for that

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_08]: and as we've gotten to know other podcasters

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_08]: and learn more about this whole

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[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_08]: next up we really got to figure out

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_08]: what to call you our listenership

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_08]: albc nation flying monkeys

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_08]: we're gonna have to workshop that

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_08]: thanks guys

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_08]: our team at a little bit cultie

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_08]: podcasts loves the

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_08]: blood ties podcast because

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_08]: it is gritty and current

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_08]: and fascinating it's also

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_08]: a little bit cultie blood ties

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_08]: the award-winning audio drama from

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Wendry returns for its third season

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_08]: strange days with another

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_08]: thrilling story about greed

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_08]: power and deception

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_08]: five years have passed since elinor

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_08]: played by julian jacob's of community

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_08]: took over as ceo of the

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_08]: infamous richland family empire

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_08]: alongside her half brother sentino

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_08]: played by christian navarro of 13 reasons

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_08]: why together they decide

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_08]: to invest the family fortune in a ground

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_08]: breaking controversial new drug

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_08]: but a shocking revelations about

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_08]: the new treatment emerge elinor and sentino

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_08]: go to every length to protect

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_08]: their control of the richland family dynasty

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_08]: as elinor's father always said

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_08]: medicine is a bloody business

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_08]: listen to blood ties season 3

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_08]: strange days on apple

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_08]: podcasts amazon music spotify

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_08]: or you can binge the whole series

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[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_04]: i'd like to admit i was

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[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_09]: no disrespect to you i mean i'm gonna try to not be offended but i get where you're

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_04]: coming from okay just maybe i manifested it

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[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_08]: is there anything else you want to share with us about red flags or things that happened

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_08]: in your vast time there how many years was it from when you got to Oregon

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and did you leave when he died from 1977 when i went to India i stayed

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_03]: in the commune or once the commune even after he died it

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_03]: disbanded and it was just loose i still considered myself a senyacin

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_03]: or that he was still my master until a year ago which just

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_03]: i cannot believe it it's like was i thinking i knew these horrible things

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_03]: had happened but i could not put it together that how would

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_03]: this man this extraordinary master how

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_03]: could it be that there could be so much darkness

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_03]: and evil around him and i just figured i'm never gonna know

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_03]: so i was living my life all these decades thinking i'll never understand it

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_03]: i don't get it i never looked through it to see that maybe

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_08]: he wasn't so great yeah what was it that woke you up a

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_03]: year ago i was having a lot of marriage problems was in therapy

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_03]: with my wife and the therapist said something about being brainwashed

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_03]: oh but erin you were brainwashed and you know i said

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_03]: i've heard that before because i've heard it for decades and

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_03]: i had my answer that was the answer that he had given us which was

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_03]: nobody can understand because unless you've experienced a master of masters

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_03]: how do people know of course yeah there's

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_03]: it's impossible for anyone outside to recognize right that was the answer

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_08]: right and quick tangent here because i noticed this in well well country

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_08]: and i want to make sure that this is clear for people because when i was watching and going if you know

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_08]: if i really believe that this commune was all about love and humanity and we're a new

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_08]: way for humanity new way of living and we're all those things

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_08]: and then people outside obviously don't understand they just don't get it because they're not

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_08]: part of it and of course they're gonna call us a cult yeah that's because they don't

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_08]: they don't get it they're of course of course they are because a cult just says

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_08]: oh it's evil and they're just Christians and they're uptight

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_08]: and they got their pitchforks and they're just scared of course they're gonna call us a cult

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_08]: and so it's such an easy defense you can't even examine

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_03]: how it might be a cult yeah okay the only other really

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_03]: important red flag there's so many i made a list once it was three pages long

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_03]: wow but one other really striking thing was that there was violence

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_03]: in the therapy groups people were beat up and people were forced

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_03]: to have sex with people they didn't want to and there

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_03]: were broken bones and this was back in India it stopped later

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_03]: but in India it should have been a red flag you know but again

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_03]: i just saw it that unless people are willing to go all the

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_03]: way 100% which if they have to get beat up they'll have

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_03]: to get beat up but i took on this idea

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_03]: that anything is good that happens in his garden

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_08]: that's actually something i wanted to ask you about there's that footage in

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_08]: wild wild country that's quite by the way massive trigger

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_08]: warning for anybody with any history of trauma really

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_08]: of what looks like the meditation thing that you described earlier but everyone's naked

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah with the german filmmaker the german filmmaker

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah and and there's like what looks like a you know meditation but maybe also

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_08]: like i wasn't sure if they're actually having sex or kind of

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_08]: you know going through the motions of gyration

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_08]: like some people had clothes on some people didn't i couldn't quite figure that out so you're saying there actually

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_08]: was in these group setting sex happening oh absolutely

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_08]: so there was a lot of group sex and violence and

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_08]: physical damage in the name of finding inner peace absolutely

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah that's tough that's a tough one do you think wild wild country

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_04]: purposely omitted that stuff i don't know you know i found wild

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_03]: country i was glad that it was made public the atrocities

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_03]: that were going on in the crimes i was glad for that that it brought it to public attention

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_03]: but it was very very narrow it seemed to me

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_03]: as somebody who had been there from the beginning or at least from when i came

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_03]: on that it was primarily the perspective from

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Sheila and his secretary and his lawyer and

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_03]: it did not include the broad scope of what the experience was like

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_03]: for most of us there and they didn't interview very many people at all

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_03]: they certainly didn't show talk about any of this i don't know why

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_08]: i certainly know that in the cult recovery space at least was helpful for us

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_08]: in that it kind of showed the template and reinforced like the same

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_08]: abuses of power in a in a much bigger scale like for sure

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Keith stole directly from Osho some of the

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_08]: teachings and some of the beliefs and also like try the process

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_08]: and the process and also try to create like when when people say like what was v-week

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_08]: like vanguard week the closest i can say is like the good parts

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_08]: of what happened in oregon and in the ashram in terms of like the

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_08]: community and the music and the ecstatic the high i mean

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_08]: towards later years it got really lame but in the beginning there were some really powerful

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_08]: profound group experiences so i totally relate to that

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_08]: but one quick sidebar is when nippy and i were watching wild wild country

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_08]: one of the craziest things that happened is the end where osho

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_08]: gets by one gets put on a bus and like

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_08]: they call it diesel therapy where they're like basically giving the notice after they

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_04]: intercepted his plane when it was refueling and they drove him back to

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_08]: drove him back to oregon on a bus it's called diesel therapy and then like they put him in jail

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_08]: and literally as that was happening as we were watching it in real time

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_08]: the same thing was happening to Keith in real time oh my

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_08]: it was wild it was like wow it was like what the fuck like this

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_08]: is mirroring our experience and this guy's being held accountable and he's going to jail

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_08]: the other perception we've noticed with wild wild countries that people were like

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_08]: but it's left it ambiguous and maybe that's a good thing you know it's

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_08]: like well there was good and there was a bad and clearly he did these illegal

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_08]: things but also in some ways i appreciated that because

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_08]: i just like with the vow i appreciated how it showed the world what was good

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_08]: about it it just doesn't go like look at this crazy motherfucker

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_08]: or whatever like because that does a disservice to people like us

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_08]: or survivors because it doesn't explain how we got hooked it doesn't

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_08]: explain why we'd be there in the first place i was so missing that in wild

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_03]: wild country they didn't interview enough people and they didn't have people who knew about

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_04]: colds yeah well it just feels to me and again i don't know

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_04]: you know like you erin i'm not going to make accusations but it just seems to

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_04]: me that if you're doing a documentary on this there would have to be at least some

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_04]: rumblings about this kind of abuse going on and if

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_04]: it wasn't uncovered then it needs to be uncovered i hope somebody does i hope

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_03]: some really really good producer or whoever it is that can get

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_03]: a hold of this and show what really happened well we we know some people

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_03]: i really hope it does because the thing is that's that's the weird contradiction

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_03]: it was as grand as all that apparently but

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_03]: at the same time the children are being raped at the same time

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_03]: women are being abused sexually by him right at the same time

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_03]: he's making a hit list i found this out later that he made a

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_03]: list of people that should be killed i heard i was told if

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_03]: they spoke out or left the group and i was on that list that

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_03]: wild wild country is so so narrow it's narrow and it's also

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_04]: if the perpetrators of the crime are curating the narrative

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_04]: shila the lawyer and all that stuff that's it

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_04]: that's certainly a conflict of interest at the very least they should they should be

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_04]: more subjects and be more put to the fire than they were because they seem

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_04]: to be promoting it it's spot on still still promoting it

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_04]: there's a lot of ushrams around the world that need to know that

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_04]: the seeds and the foundation of their philosophies are informed

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_04]: by this kind of behavior and they're rotten really

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_03]: now when i look back it's like i thought he cared more than

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_03]: anybody could have cared about each one of us but

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: i see now he did not care at all no well that's the con it's unbelievable

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_03]: but he but it's true the unbelievable is true

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_08]: so your therapist makes a comment about you bringing brainwash you've heard that before and so then

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_08]: what how did everything how did the dominoes fall after that okay so so

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: that was over and for a couple of days it kept kind of going through my head

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: i couldn't kind of shake it and i wasn't in so much distress our marriage

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_03]: was about to bust up it went through my mind just once

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_03]: what if i was brainwash

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_03]: what if and it was like

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_03]: that's crazy and it was like what if he was a con what if he's a charlatan

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_03]: what if i was that whole all those decades and it was just

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_03]: literally in one minute it was just oh my god

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: it can't be but literally

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_03]: it was like in one moment the whole thing fell apart and smashed

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_03]: like a tsunami inside of me i just felt oh no

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: because it wasn't just him that was crumbling and it wasn't just my idea of him

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and who i thought he was it was me too because who i was for all

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_03]: of my life since i've been with him part of my identity that maybe the

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_03]: main part of my identity has been that i was a close very close

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_03]: disciple devotee of his i just shattered i just shattered

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: but in the shattering i began to see that he was

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_03]: not who i thought he was and that he was not interested in what the whole

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_03]: idea of enlightenment is ridiculous that's what i think right now

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_03]: i mean i know that a lot of people get on my case for that but

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_03]: your entire opinion yeah you know i think it's a really

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_03]: it's an awful trap i agree to make it seem

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_03]: that some people can be living in a true state of consciousness

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and the rest of us are not i find the people that claim to be

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_04]: living in a true state of consciousness don't have a conscience which allows them to put

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_08]: on the front do you think that he did have anything special

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_08]: or was he enlightened in some way and then he was like oh and i can also have

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_08]: my you know like had some worldly desires

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_08]: that he had no boundaries around you know what i mean like was he someone who

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_08]: was enlightened and he was a sexual predator or was this we sexual

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_08]: predator and pretended to be enlightened those don't go hand in hand sir no

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_08]: i know i'm like obviously can't be in fully enlightened but like did he have was any of it

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_08]: real was what i'm saying like was any of it was a totally a con like people

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_08]: have asked us about keith and i'm like i'm very clear that he was a charlotte

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_08]: from the beginning he wasn't like a magic man i mean like

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: did it go bad yeah like was he well intentioned and it just you know he

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_03]: got carried away maybe yeah that's the question and yes

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_03]: that's what i want to know believed his own publicity kind of thing yeah i tried on

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that for many many years but when this happened to me about a year

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_03]: ago and i suddenly thought what if just what if

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_03]: and then i saw what i have continued to see is

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_03]: that no no he was not and even the stories

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_03]: of him as a child he was hypnotizing his family all the time his

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_03]: cousins and everything as a little boy he was studying hypnosis

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_03]: and fascinated by it and they didn't want to go to family gatherings because little mohan

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_03]: would hypnotize them it's hard for me to say it still but i do

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_03]: believe if that's enlightenment i don't want anything to do with it because

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_03]: in enlightened people can kill people or can be involved in other

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_03]: people's deaths and attempted murders and poisonings

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and sexual abuse and on and on that's not any enlightenment

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_03]: that i want anything to do with amen seras heard me say this

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_04]: many a time and she's probably gonna roll her eyes when i say it but i really believe

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_04]: this i think every system takes on the personality of your

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_04]: leader whether it be a company a sports team or whatever

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: and if that kind of thing is going on

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_04]: with children in your purview and you're the leader of it

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_04]: you're in some way inspiring it with whatever you're doing and there's no

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_04]: room for it anything that causes a rind sexually and abuse to me is the worst

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_04]: violation i think you can do to a person physical and anything that exists

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_04]: and that i think ultimately is an effect of the leader on some shape or form

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_04]: normally particularly if he's teaching everyone and lecturing everyone

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_03]: and there's this spiritual abuse i mean i've often thought about it for sure the sexual

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_03]: part for me i just didn't i don't know i just didn't hook into that

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_03]: so much but to take something like gratitude which is such a beautiful thing to

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_03]: live in gratitude and to live in celebration of what

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_03]: life gives us that's a beautiful thing but to take that

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and turn it to use the very thing to use living

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_03]: a life in gratitude to make people complicit to make people

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_03]: accept everything that goes on and believe that everything is good

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_03]: even these horrific crimes it's spiritual abuse

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: it's spiritual rape my story is i just had that opening and then i pretty

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_03]: much fell apart i didn't know what was up or down i was out of control

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_03]: i finally had to give the keys to my car to my wife and say

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_03]: you don't get because i'm gonna do something really bad

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_03]: i was really a wreck somehow by a miracle like i was just saying

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_03]: i need help i need help i don't know what's happening to me but i need help and

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_03]: we have to find somebody who knows something about cults and i got connected

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: with yonya lalish right away oh we love yonja her books the bible

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_03]: i mean i don't know how many times i can read that book

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_03]: i've got it underlined in pink in yellow and in green

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_04]: the first 60 to 90 pages were just bam

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_04]: bam this hit me i narrated her audible

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_08]: version oh you did yeah and and reading it again out loud was like

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_08]: hugely also cathartic because i couldn't i guess i probably didn't even

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_08]: take it all in the first time i was in such a state of fight or flight but so

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_03]: helpful to see that there are people out here in the world that i

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_03]: was taught not to trust right because they wouldn't understand but there

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_03]: are so many incredibly knowledgeable skilled people

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_03]: to help isn't it amazing it is amazing it is amazing as

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_03]: i've taken several of her the classes from take back your life no the

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_04]: community waiting for us when we left i was

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_04]: we're so grateful for it got us right back on track in our lives

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_04]: in a very what i think if it would be 20 30 years earlier we're taking

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_04]: us way longer so i'm forever grateful to those people so you read

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_08]: her book and you did therapy with her also i didn't do therapy

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_03]: with her but through her i found a really good therapist who had been

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: working with people and i started just to read i turned into a voracious

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_03]: reader i read every first of all i read every book that any

[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: son yes and ever wrote and then i started calling people who

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_03]: left early saying i want to talk to you you know or even people that had been

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_03]: in jail and i had read that their testimony in the courts they said that

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_03]: there was psychological abuse so i called them and i was sort of on this mission

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_03]: to try to find out what people knew and what actually happened and i

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_03]: started reading also about cults and what makes a cult

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_03]: and i couldn't believe it i was shocked because and i went into these groups with

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_03]: people and they all said what what group they were in and i just my

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_03]: jaw dropped and i thought yeah you guys were all in cults i wasn't

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_03]: you know um

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_04]: and it took me a while are you alone in this do you have people

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_04]: that were with you that were in the same do you know what i'm asking you

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_03]: i do know and here's the thing yes i have felt very very alone in it because

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_03]: the people that were with me at the core most of them in this inner circles

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that were not the inner circles around the administration like sheila and that was a

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_03]: different circle but the people that were really close to him as

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_03]: devotees and living closely near him they are all pretty much not only

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_03]: still identified as disciples but there are making

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_03]: their livelihoods teaching and leading groups and workshops and

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_03]: meditation groups and programs and trainings based on the teachings of osho

[01:09:45] [SPEAKER_03]: so i know that me speaking to you right now that

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_03]: some of them are going to hear this and yes i do feel alone

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_03]: a few people after i sent i sent a letter to the osho community

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_03]: telling them what i had experienced i tell you it was the hardest thing i ever did

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_03]: was to write that letter and after that some people started other women

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_03]: started to say pieces of their stories have been coming forward but

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_03]: barely barely it's a hard thing to do yeah my hope is that more people will

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_03]: because it is what happened and it has to come out what would you say to those

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_03]: people who are still running retreats and workshops and

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_03]: like what would you want them to know really good question actually i can't

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_03]: say anything to that i i mean they'll know what they what they

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_03]: want to know right i just want to speak what

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_03]: happened because i know that this is what my experience was

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and i want to tell it and i hope that other people will

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_03]: take the courage to tell more their experiences

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_03]: and then the truth of what happened is going to do what it does right in the

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_08]: world i think that's true and i've said this many times on our podcast like

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_08]: if they went through this whole thing and were unscathed which is

[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_08]: probably unlikely or didn't see things which is again unlikely but let's just

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_08]: say they had a great experience good for them but at this point and

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_08]: they'll probably demand evidence or even character assassinate you which of

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_08]: course happened to us and happens often to survivors of such

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_08]: issues still happening as an enlightened person or somebody on the

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_08]: path it behooves them to search for the truth

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_08]: and that's going to be a bind for them because if they really

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_08]: do teach what they say that they teach they need to be compassionate

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_08]: with you and you're your truth and honor your experience

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_08]: and hold space for you if they don't then there are charlatans too

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_08]: so let's see what they do like when i wrote that letter

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_03]: i got private messages from a couple of them and they were nasty

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_03]: i bet they were nasty how could you my tree how could you

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_03]: right how could you yeah instead of how could he

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_03]: and yeah or how could you not yeah how could you not want to tell what

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_03]: really happened that's the that's the sick thing about this that for all

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_03]: these decades i've been sitting here living like i had duct tape on my

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_03]: mouth like i couldn't speak i was terrified to say what

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_03]: actually had happened with me privately with him because nobody

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_03]: know yeah it took this much time it's crazy and how

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_03]: does it feel to have said it this is my healing actually good

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_03]: this is my healing because i couldn't speak and i couldn't say what was true

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and i couldn't speak spontaneously and easily with anybody

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_03]: i was like locked i felt like i was gagged and locked so

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_03]: speaking to you and knowing that others will hear it is this this is a huge

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_03]: part of my healing for myself reclaiming myself so honored to be part of that with

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_04]: you erin truly yeah we were talking last night about

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_04]: it's incredibly brave what you're doing and and thank you for trusting us

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_04]: with your story to impart it into some wisdom it is hard to break these

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_03]: spells i can say because i was living in this spell for so many years

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_03]: it's still hard for me to break it every day every freaking day i wonder how did

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_03]: this happen this is my life i'm getting close to 70

[01:13:02] [SPEAKER_03]: i look back at my life i didn't have my family i didn't do my career

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_03]: i gave my entire life to him how could this be

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_03]: yet it is that's what happened i hope the truth comes out more and more

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_03]: that's all i know that there's a lot more from a lot of other people

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_03]: that hasn't been spoken about because it's so frightening

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_03]: and it breaks the spell but it's a great spell to break

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_08]: how is this awakening for you affected your life now

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_08]: like where are you at in your healing and how has it affected your art i'm

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_03]: curious honestly i haven't been able to paint

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_03]: since i had this realization or recognition just trying to

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_03]: pick up the pieces of who i am and and i've been dealing with a lot of

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_03]: ptsd and other trauma stuff so i haven't painted

[01:13:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and i look forward to painting again soon i do there's a podcast i want to

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_08]: recommend to you and to our listeners who may be in the same boat or similar

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_08]: boats it's called lessons on leaving by

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_08]: jennifer kiava she's one of our collaborators in the

[01:14:05] [SPEAKER_08]: hashtag i got out movement which you also may want to consider

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_08]: checking out for support that yanya is also involved with yanya

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_08]: knowledge and her podcast episode is called healing through art

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_08]: and there's two parts yeah yeah and i really i i listened to that

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_08]: to prep for a talk i did about healing and creativity

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_08]: maybe we can continue to talk offline about that yeah as

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_08]: artists and in terms of ptsd some things i'd share

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_08]: is you know really taking the time for your own

[01:14:37] [SPEAKER_08]: self-care which is hard when and especially just as a reminder

[01:14:42] [SPEAKER_08]: you may get an onslaught of people wanting to interview you or

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_08]: talk more after this or at least for me there was a real rush of

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_08]: adrenaline and in telling my story and making sure that people knew the

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_08]: truth and then i didn't take care of myself and so you kind of have to

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_08]: find this balance of like unwinding and then like really insulating

[01:15:02] [SPEAKER_08]: yourself and saying no and saying no yeah there was a

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_08]: poll i wrote in my book about my scar there's a line that goes through

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_08]: my head which is i wrap myself in cashmere sheets and i plant barbed

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_08]: wire between us so i can heal and i see you're wearing i think what

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_08]: looks like a cashmere sweater i am i love cashmere too

[01:15:20] [SPEAKER_08]: so it's like this feeling of like you have to just like take hot

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_08]: we i take a hot bath with epsom salts every night every night you know every

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_08]: night but i'll get my back sometimes two on

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_03]: occasionally three like in this last year i have had days where i take

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_03]: three baths always with epsom salts and essential oil amazing oh yes i was

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_09]: going to say essential oils i'm going to send you a present a cbd love bomb i'm

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_09]: going to end that love bomb oh my god talk about forty and a cbd

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_09]: bath bomb i'm gonna love bomb you with bath bombs i'll send it with my book

[01:15:54] [SPEAKER_09]: and some a little bit culty merchandise if you'll wear it

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_03]: the whole thing of taking care that's what we never did

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_03]: when we were in the in the group i mean never no it was selfish it was indulgent

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_03]: but i can't tell you how many days i haven't gotten out of my pajamas and i just

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_03]: i need time to cry every day i mean i just bucket sub tiers you know

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_03]: but at the same time i think i'm getting through i think i'm kind of you are

[01:16:20] [SPEAKER_03]: coming to a place and i think actually speaking with you and speaking

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_03]: letting other people know what actually happened it's probably the most

[01:16:29] [SPEAKER_03]: profound healing that i could have absolutely there's light at the end of

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_08]: the other end of the tunnel i absolutely promise you and you'll look back at this time and and go

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_08]: wow i've really i've got got through some shit and it's totally okay you can see

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_03]: in pajamas as long as you want me like there's no need to rush it world yeah i know isn't it

[01:16:50] [SPEAKER_03]: true and it's amazing to see how just the question what if you know if anybody ever

[01:16:56] [SPEAKER_03]: has any doubt like maybe you were just what if because that was my door that is a profound door

[01:17:03] [SPEAKER_08]: and i'm so glad you opened it and came through on the other side because it's a it's a gift

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_08]: and i i truly hope that this story and this this truth reaches the right people so that

[01:17:14] [SPEAKER_08]: you know the abuse stops and the truth comes out about who he was and and what he did to you

[01:17:21] [SPEAKER_03]: and others many others i'm sure and the children the children who are now in their 50s but who were

[01:17:27] [SPEAKER_03]: children around him not voluntarily right i so hope for them that they can get the healing they need

[01:17:33] [SPEAKER_03]: because there are many of them dozens and dozens hundreds actually that are really suffering yep

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_08]: well erin again thank you so much for your your candidness and your vulnerability and your strength

[01:17:48] [SPEAKER_08]: and if i can be an ally for you and in this part of your healing journey please don't ever

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_08]: hesitate to reach out because it's it's a tough road you know it's a tough road but you're not alone

[01:17:59] [SPEAKER_08]: in it at all it's a good road to be on yeah thank you both so much welcome to freedom thank you

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_08]: imagine yourself walking into a forest you can see the path and the trees high above you

[01:18:17] [SPEAKER_08]: the air is crisp you are walking towards your happy place allegedly allegedly say it with me

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_08]: anything said here on this podcast about alleged cults alleged mlem schemes alleged dushbaggery

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_08]: mindfuckery criminality spiritual fraud or the like is offered purely as commentary

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_08]: because the views and opinions expressed on a little bit culty do not necessarily reflect on

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_08]: official policy or position of the podcast and any content provided by our guests bloggers

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_08]: sponsors or authors are their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion group

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_08]: club organization business individual anyone or anything so just let these words drift into your

[01:19:04] [SPEAKER_08]: mind without needing to focus on any of them you are great you are capable you deserve to be happy

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_08]: nobody's mad at you unless you're actually a narcissistic culty criminal if that's you cut

[01:19:19] [SPEAKER_08]: that shit out don't be a fuckwad but if that's not you again you are great you are capable

[01:19:26] [SPEAKER_08]: you deserve to be happy a little bit culty loves you well that was again intense

[01:19:37] [SPEAKER_08]: feel like there's more there yeah i you know actually since recording this as we've mentioned

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_08]: we get a lot of emails from different people wanting to know more about different things

[01:19:45] [SPEAKER_08]: including wild wild country since we started but we've also been in contact with a number

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_08]: of survivors which i believe are some of the children that erin mentioned these women

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_08]: and men are now in their 40s and 50s and they're coming to terms with what happened to them

[01:19:59] [SPEAKER_08]: side note since recording this we got clarification from erin that the young woman she mentioned

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_08]: was actually raped let's just call it what it is by over 100 adults between the ages of 12 and

[01:20:12] [SPEAKER_08]: 15 it's still obviously horrendous we just want to be accurate with our words and truth time

[01:20:18] [SPEAKER_08]: in the interview itself i was so shocked when erin shared that she was sterilized

[01:20:23] [SPEAKER_08]: i didn't know that prior and i didn't ask any follow-up questions i'm still processing what

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_08]: that all means so yeah more to discuss in future episodes and we definitely want to do another

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_08]: episode with some of the children survivors if and when they are ready i gotta say like i don't

[01:20:40] [SPEAKER_04]: know how you get in the orbit of this story for a netflix documentary or whatever

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_04]: and not know this and how this thing has what was it 3,600 osho centers around the world like how does

[01:20:52] [SPEAKER_08]: this yeah this stuff is still going like it also makes me equally mad at netflix in the wake of

[01:20:57] [SPEAKER_08]: the bad vegan sarma debacle i don't know if that's netflix or we don't know what happened there

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_08]: or the director or the producer or who did what all i know is that they didn't do right by her

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_08]: and they didn't protect her someone who is clearly in trauma and expose the truth and this is

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_08]: the same thing i feel about wild wild country i enjoyed the documentary when i saw it i found it

[01:21:18] [SPEAKER_08]: helpful and i found it balanced you know showing what was good about it which i always do think is

[01:21:22] [SPEAKER_08]: important because it shows what draws people in but like they didn't really show what was

[01:21:26] [SPEAKER_08]: fully bad about it they showed part of it but to ignore all the sexual abuse and i've

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_08]: i've since found out from a a dear friend who had many friends involved at the time

[01:21:35] [SPEAKER_08]: that apparently before even going i don't think erin mentioned this before going to the

[01:21:39] [SPEAKER_08]: ranch you had to get tested for stds so there was the understanding that sort of free love and sex

[01:21:44] [SPEAKER_08]: was going to be part of this but not for the children you know if as a community of adults

[01:21:49] [SPEAKER_08]: and sexual exploration is a part of what you're signing up for great good for you not my gem but

[01:21:54] [SPEAKER_08]: like children can't consent it's just really messed up that's the part that traps my eyes so how

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: does netflix not know this i don't know that's the thing it's hard to figure out who knows what

[01:22:05] [SPEAKER_08]: and what's going on yeah either way we are so appreciative of erin for trusting us and also

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_08]: little sidebar i have managed to find my long lost friend toey and we've connected over facebook i just

[01:22:20] [SPEAKER_08]: typed in toey and i found her isn't that crazy yeah and on a positive note kind of seems a little

[01:22:27] [SPEAKER_04]: silly to do a word salad but we do have one we have a word salad it's an oh show original

[01:22:36] [SPEAKER_04]: i don't think existence wants you to be serious i've not seen a serious tree i have not seen a

[01:22:43] [SPEAKER_04]: serious bird i have not seen a serious sunrise i have not seen a serious starry night it seems they

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_04]: are all laughing in their own ways dancing in their own ways we may not understand it but there

[01:22:54] [SPEAKER_04]: is a subtle feeling that the whole existence is a celebration is that word salad it says nothing

[01:22:59] [SPEAKER_04]: well then the nature of word salad is that you're going to connect the dots but i don't

[01:23:04] [SPEAKER_04]: have to really say anything that's that profound you're going to make it profound because you think

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_08]: i'm profound yeah i mean it's not that profound i just think that's a particularly it may not

[01:23:14] [SPEAKER_08]: seem that round about confusing but it's more like it's just a cover up for what he's actually doing

[01:23:19] [SPEAKER_08]: and that also chaps my ass you know guys season four we love doing this we love you the audience

[01:23:26] [SPEAKER_08]: erin friends for life looking forward to meeting you one day in person nippy you're pretty

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_06]: awesome too thanks but see you next time see you let's keep the conversation going we'll be back

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_04]: soon with more episodes of a little bit culty with more experts and survivors and sometimes experts

[01:23:59] [SPEAKER_04]: who are survivors as well as some familiar faces from the vow from hbo if you've got suggestions

[01:24:04] [SPEAKER_04]: or questions on upcoming topics find us on instagram at a little bit culty and for more

[01:24:09] [SPEAKER_08]: background on what brought me here my memoir scarred the true story of how i escaped nexium the cult

[01:24:15] [SPEAKER_08]: that bound my life is available on amazon audible and where most books are sold if you like to

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_04]: help us spread the word about a little bit culty podcast please give us a five star review

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[01:24:37] [SPEAKER_08]: podcast to find show notes and helpful resources you might also find some offers from our sponsors

[01:24:42] [SPEAKER_04]: there and when you support our sponsors you help us keep this podcast going just don't be a little

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_08]: bit culty about it a little bit culty is executive produced by me your co-host sarah edmondson and

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_08]: anthony nippy aims that's me associate producer is jess tardy produced edited mixed and

[01:24:59] [SPEAKER_08]: mastered by citizens of sound our amazing theme song cultivated is by john bryant and

[01:25:05] [SPEAKER_08]: co-written by nigel assalon i'm sarah edmondson and thanks for listening to a little bit culty