Weirder Together: Cult Hopping with Ben Lee & Ione Skye

[00:00:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice.

[00:00:05] The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:00:25] I'm Sarah Edmondson.

[00:00:26] And I'm Anthony, air's so epic that picture this. We are holding an invisible boombox over our heads outside your window while blaring Peter Gabriel asking you to listen.

[00:01:40] You got the picture?

[00:01:41] Okay, cool.

[00:01:42] Our guests today are married to each other.

[00:01:44] She's Hollywood royalty and Ioni Skye. Hi. Welcome to a little bit culty. Finally. We're excited. Yeah, it's always good to be here. I'm going to be here.

[00:03:01] I'm going to be here.

[00:03:03] I'm going to be here.

[00:03:04] I'm going to be here.

[00:03:05] I'm going to be here.

[00:03:06] I'm going to be here.

[00:03:07] I'm going to be here.

[00:03:08] I'm going to be here. crossover with politics and mainstream consciousness and the Republican Party and all this stuff. And I was like, damn, this is like the same stuff going on. So it just felt like if you'd been through those dynamics, it was a good moment to call it out. Absolutely. So when you say it creeping in, what exactly, what sent your red flags up?

[00:04:21] Because I think that's important for people to get kind of interesting because when we went there before the Delta variation, they were actually doing a really good job of keeping COVID out of Australia.

[00:05:40] So we went there as sort of this promised land of everything was open and there was no COVID.

[00:05:46] And then once it mutated a bit, they could, but it's unlikely you'll ever have to attend like a football game of young children. That is a reasonable guess, you know? You use the powers of intuition and I think you're correct. I mean, LA, a lot of basketball. I mean, of course, Australia's got the football, but the footy, that's a whole thing that was

[00:07:04] really funny to me because there's like 10 different leagues of different, so many different

[00:07:08] types of playing. and help each other. And it's a bit different now because of the way the cycle of television shows and stuff goes, where it used to be like pilot season, where the actors would come for pilot season and so you know, everyone sort of knew each other. And yeah, Bonnie, I stayed in touch with was friendly with, not super close. We'd sort of meet up for coffee

[00:08:20] over the years. I did come to some kind they're people that have been sort of in and out of our lives for a long time. I wonder, do you remember who did the intro session in Laurel Canyon? Like, was it Mark?

[00:09:40] I mean, Mark, yeah, he did it.

[00:09:42] Yeah, Mark.

[00:09:43] And then they would occasionally call me about like acting.

[00:09:46] Mark was trying to get a full bit of anything. But the surface part didn't see it. The aesthetic didn't click for me. You know what? So funny you said that the aesthetic really never clicked for me either, but there were other things I liked about it, obviously, staying for 12 years, but just from our 10 minutes together so far, you would have not liked the five day. You would have been like,

[00:11:00] peace out from day one,

[00:11:02] because it was very-

[00:11:03] Sitting in a room.

[00:11:04] Yeah, so it was just-

[00:11:05] It was also a very cheesy aesthetic.

[00:11:07] Like it was needed, for me, I had dabbled,

[00:12:23] you know, I had been peripheral to other things now that I know going back.. It's interesting when you realized that, oh, so you were looking for something that you were going to go all in on something sooner or later. Yes. And I think that's kind of, I relate to that. Like, for me, part of the reason I progressed through different groups was that they like weren't intense enough for me.

[00:13:40] And I was actually looking for, for me,

[00:13:42] it was almost like a Rambo, like,

[00:13:45] systematic derangement of the senses.

[00:13:47] Like, I wanted something know, five, six years back and forth to India, dedicating albums to the guru, I mean, all that. And running everything by. The guru. Yeah, the guru like to marry me and also just everything gets, you know,

[00:15:02] it becomes more and more isolating, you know,

[00:15:05] like any of them, you know, big experience for me. But I was very observant of the Sikhs, like, are they homophobic? Are they like really watching? But and the children all went to school out there in India. And I was sort of hanging

[00:16:22] with the kids, like, is this good? Do hodgepodge of material, but it was very much about sex being part of the path to enlightenment and should be treated as such.

[00:17:41] And in a way, you know, because my stepdaughter

[00:17:45] was a teenager, and I'm just always, a participant's sexuality is because once you can control someone's sexuality, you can control anything about them. I mean, that is sexuality and creativity to me of the same thing. And morality and the whole thing that most of these groups, you know, the thing of like, you have to really work on yourself. And the only way to do it is to the things that the group

[00:19:02] says you should do. And you have that total self-conscious thing of like, position themselves, even in a social way or a political way, is having special access to insight. Because I think we're all working with the same stuff and we're all humans. And I just think it's a real way to get in and manipulate people because we're scared. I'm essentially a good student. I grew up believing, I want to learn the right

[00:20:22] way to do things and do them well. And I'm so competitive and Ben was going down such a journey. I made myself to the ayahuasca. But so this charismatic leader who Because of course, there's the level, the beginning where you do people come to the ceremony or do they come to the things for a day or afternoon and there just it's a surface thing. And then of course, you do it

[00:23:03] more and more and there's the inner circle becomes more and more kind of special and smaller in this Yeah, that's true. No, for sure. The wake of these things have a lot of broken people. Especially I find in Hollywood, I don't want to stereotype, but just from trying to bring ESP there, I did see so many people trying, just people trying everything and then going too far. Like you said, even when you're just talking about Ben being chosen as the special one and

[00:24:20] going in the inner circle, I'm the same by the way, Ben, in case you didn't catch that

[00:24:23] from the vow.

[00:24:24] But that's intoxicating for certain people I see it as sort of like capture.

[00:25:40] Like I think that what sort of you've been in and out of so many did you ever actually like wake up and leave one or did they sort of all overlap and you kind of got hooked in by another one led you to the next well from the outside watching you I think plant medicine trapped me again. Got it. On the way out, you know, and anyway. And then really at the end, the, the, but all of it is true. It is true what I saw. I was trapped and I did need to get out, but I wasn't ready. I guess it's like when someone leaves an abusive relationship and they just

[00:28:21] getting another one. But then the last one leaders called an emergency meeting. Oh, it was so amazing. This was so dramatic. So the leader and his wife are getting a divorce, right? The leader knows that she's going around and telling everybody.

[00:29:42] So he called.

[00:29:43] And they were very mom and dad.

[00:29:45] They were the mother, all of this exploration I've done has surely been about finding out what my truth is who I am. I just closed my eyes. And I was like, what am I meant to do? And you know, I just felt this, to me it was like words, but it was just my thought,

[00:31:01] but it was like, you can get off the bus here. That was what it was. It was like,

[00:31:04] nice. You can get off. It wasn't therapy. Oh boy, do I swear by it. Yep, I love this journey for me. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try.

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[00:32:22] what works for you and all you have to do

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[00:32:27] Plus you can switch therapists at any time the way to a steamy nightclub called Tallulas, Ula-la. And by the way, I'm gonna solve this thing. With hundreds of mind-teasing puzzles, the next clue is always within reach, and every new chapter takes you further into the story. It's a great escape for me. June's Journey is such a nice switch-up from Doomscrolling. It's just fun and lights up my imagination in a low-key, stress-relieving way. Try it. You might also be a world-class detective

[00:33:44] and PS. I didn't know I'd ever be a gamer, like so worried all the time and I was so caught up. I just felt, you know, I had that thing I have to take care of and I have to. I was young and then I had one of those moments of like, this isn't your job, like you're not a nurse, you don't need to do this. And it was a moment of clarity.

[00:35:01] But yeah, I mean, we weren't going to lose our family.

[00:35:04] Like we lucked out. being everything and just in life, just seizing. Because I've had certain things like in my career where I've missed opportunities because of timing and they sort of don't come back again. They might come back in a different way, but I do know enough to know that if you see like a little crack of light coming through and you're in a dark place,

[00:36:21] every time you don't jump and go for it,

[00:36:24] it gets a little hard.

[00:36:26] You know, like you gotta like,

[00:36:27] you gotta seize those opportunities I don't have a PhD. And he could analyze everything in what? I was like, the way you're talking about this guy is like, I'm not going. Yeah, I want to straight forward. I believe in teachers. Like if someone was, you know, we have a tennis teacher or whatever, if I want to learn a language, like, yeah, they're teachers, but they're not trying to like take over my life. Yeah. One thing we've been saying to people is like, yeah, take the tools, put them in your life.

[00:37:42] Don't make the tools your life.

[00:37:43] That's the line.

[00:37:44] Don't dedicate yourself to any one person thing. content point for people that you noticed. It's funny because I'm not as focused on the abuses because I sort of see, and I get that that's sort of a privileged situation of not having, you know, people suffer all kinds of different things. But just in my personal situation, I almost see these gurus as also being victims

[00:39:02] of a total confusion about what good values are

[00:39:07] and what love is and what meaning is. to find security, that's a nice feeling, but it's not real. It's an illusion of security, an illusion of enlightenment, an illusion of family. It took me a long time to grow up into being okay with the chaos of life and with the chaos of my own impulses too. And as far as all these clowns that are running

[00:40:20] these shops, they're like, I just look at them as like,

[00:40:24] they're really stuck.

[00:40:25] They're like super stuck and they always end up being in this world together. I love that feeling. That's the only thing I miss. But, I only, you've obviously done some things right to be by Ben's side and doubt enough that he would trust you and yet not push him away with your own concerns. What advice do you have for people who have a loved one who they're not on the same page with? Yeah, I mean, I was definitely,

[00:41:42] would we would fight quite a bit and I would say,

[00:41:45] you were so staunch when you were in it that, the last one was about sacred marriage and it was getting very kind of even though we're Jewish it was very Christian or something and then when he was talking to my thirteen year old about like, just getting home of phobias yeah just like what the right type of sacred, sexuality is i was like no no no no you're not talking just step off and that's when i really like back off you they think it's a good thing they're doing, even though I don't agree with it. But it took many years for me to believe you weren't going to just go into another one. I'll never forget the day when I really left, like really left everything. I had two thoughts that I remember in my head. One was I'd heard the term, living a man's.

[00:44:21] I'm not in AA or anything, yeah, yeah, yeah. The only reason we're not super big on like naming it, naming all these things is like, basically end up people end up googling and they can get into it. Like I don't want to create it kind of even like a subconscious sales funnel

[00:45:42] for any of these groups

[00:45:43] because I always like to keep it about

[00:45:45] that's good.

[00:45:46] My experience, you know what I mean?

[00:45:47] Yeah. You've always been more into cults of one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm more in the love addiction category probably where you just make one person. You're a joiner with one, not a joiner of a group.

[00:47:00] So how did you get out of that dynamic and heal from it?

[00:47:04] I mean, I think it I still have a tendency to kind of become like infantile and, yeah, and also I'm an actress.

[00:48:22] I think actresses like to be the baby and, you know, just like people do everything

[00:48:27] for them, but that's not so bad.

[00:49:26] us to keep it in, obviously. Yes. Yeah. What about culty dynamics that you see in Hollywood or the music industry? Like now that you're both veterans of these structures, do you see it?

[00:49:31] Do you feel it? Different ways? Yeah, I reckon for sure. I mean, look, there's also like those

[00:49:37] funny, good things, these skills that you learned. Like, I learned a lot about building community

[00:49:42] through cults. I also learned a lot about hard work and consistency. Unpaid hard work. Yeah, creative people into dependence on ritual and dogmatic thinking that I think is like pretty destructive. And even like we have a young friend who's come in from Australia and her manager is something like she's kind of listening to what she wants to do and is only doing every

[00:51:00] meeting is just, oh, I have to do that because my manager and it's fine.

[00:51:04] Like that's great. here, check out my page-chirting memoir. It's called Scard, the true story of how I escape next year and the cult that bound my life. It's available on Amazon, Audible, and at most bookstores. And if you want to see that story in streaming form, you can watch both seasons of The Vow on HBO. Hey, everybody, Sarah here.

[00:52:20] You do not want to experience me when I'm hangry.

[00:52:23] You know, hanger, the thing when you've gone past hunger

[00:52:26] into something bordering on rage.

[00:52:27] Hey, you know order online and have them delivered straight to your door. You can even subscribe for ongoing savings. And right now, Chomps is offering our listeners 20% off your first order and free shipping

[00:53:44] when you go to chomps.com slash culty. It's a great escape for me. June's Journey is such a nice switch-up from dimscrolling. It's just fun and lights up my imagination in a low-key, stress-relieving way. Try it. You might also be a world-class detective. And, PS, I didn't know I'd ever be a gamer, but I did get it, and I think I've got game. Think you can crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

[00:55:01] Enjoy.

[00:55:03] Break time's over, people.

[00:55:05] Let's get back to this episode of A Little Bit Culty.

[00:55:07] It's a good one.

[00:56:01] always going to be someone willing to do it. I think also the lack of strict known

[00:56:06] laid out direction makes people susceptible to thinking,

[00:56:10] are there shortcuts?

[00:56:11] Yes.

[00:56:12] But the one thing I would say is that it's important

[00:56:15] to recognize that life is a violent game,

[00:56:19] and it's a dangerous game, and there are no real safe spaces.

[00:56:23] And families have very complicated dynamics to uncover just the corruption or the power. I mean, it's nice if everyone can get to that place where they can trust their judgment and stand up for themselves. I get it, I just sort of feel that like, part of the reason I don't really feel that victimized by the cults I was in was that I do genuinely feel

[00:57:44] I was truly to feel special. But do you feel you were coerced in any way? Meaning you signed up for one thing and found out that wasn't really what they were selling. Yes, but I feel that in so many areas of my life, I mean, very rarely are things what they appear to be. So again, I see that type of duplicity

[00:59:03] or those hard lessons about reality

[00:59:05] as sort of questioning it for a second. I mean, being a guru, it's probably like the journey at the beginning of wanting to be a rock star or something where you have to be a little

[01:00:20] delusional to get the path started. Because you're talking about building something so improbable And he said, I don't believe he is who he says he is, which I thought was like a very interesting insight from one narcissistic help leader about another one. You know what I made that like in Edison because of the model that she emulated. That's exactly it. That's it. Like I feel like for me as an artist, I'm like finally in my 40s becoming the artist

[01:03:00] and the business person and the, you know,

[01:03:02] that I thought I could be when I started at 14.

[01:03:07] And that's a moderately successful musician. But I've always believed in my heart, I had something to offer creatively of greatness,

[01:04:23] you know?

[01:04:24] So that's totally could just be my imagination.

[01:04:25] I don't know.

[01:04:26] That's why it's tricky.

[01:04:27] That's why mother's milk. It's a saying new episode of Real Housework. It's just like, oh, this is the best because it's so nice to see people snapping out of it.

[01:05:44] Yeah, we call it waking up and there's still people waking up out of the committing to not doing that type of thing again, and being willing to accept the karma and consequences of that type of behavior. There's not a lot you can do, and everyone does have their own. I know I've made it very clear to everybody involved in any of these groups, much like with Bonnie, they can reach out to me.

[01:07:00] I've made myself a person. That's part of my amends. disturbed because I felt a certain type of kinship with like this world of yoga teachers and organic foods and I just sort of, I don't know, I thought it was like their hearts were in the right place. And then it's complicated to talk about now because this all feels actually like history that what happened over that period, it was particularly interesting when Black Lives Matter started coming

[01:08:24] up into the consciousness. That was the first I started seeing was that it was a total cult dynamic where there was special information that was coming from a magical source, these Q posts, and people were interpreting it, and they could interpret it to mean whatever they wanted to me. So to me, it just felt very much like the royal family, that there is, what's the term, not ordination, like when something's touched by God. Or deigned. Or deigned, yeah, or deigned. Yeah, you sort of believe that God chooses leaders for the world and for the community,

[01:11:00] and our job is to honor and support them.

[01:11:03] And that's kind of what a guru is, right?

[01:11:05] That is also what Christian nationalists keep it in the cults. Keep it in the cults. Did you watch Chinese happy people? Yeah, yeah, wait, what was that again? The Duggar family and about IBLP, we've seen them all. Yes, we're like crazy people for this shit. But that's the first time Nippy and I were like, oh my goodness, they're actively training these people to get into positions of power in the government. And they do believe they have a direct line to God,

[01:12:21] which is one of our red flags.

[01:12:23] Like, oh yeah, I'm speaking to God or Jesus.

[01:12:25] Jesus told me, blah, hey, we don't need to use those tactics to do this. We need to root them and more of them in our principles and speak from that place.

[01:13:43] And it seems like everyone's in the pig Or essential oils. Exactly, there you go. Which by the way, I barely miss that boat as well. So no judgment. Well, that came from one of the cults. Like we basically got involved in that. Which one? Through the ayahuasca cult. That became a way we were all, cause you start giving so much of your time

[01:15:02] to the cult that you need income too.

[01:15:06] So there was this idea of,

[01:15:06] hey, let's actually a super uncreative form of business. Oh yeah, I know it's so funny. So it's so bad, it's so bad. And even there was like one sort of class about massaging with the oils. And it's so funny because it was like a structure, you know, there is a way to learn, I guess, massage,

[01:16:22] but it was like so, it wasn't a good massage.

[01:16:25] And then I gave like a couple of friends this massage suited to the spiritual path and the saint. And I think there is something about that because there's Huitzper, you know? Like all of these spaces that we've passed through, they're like dangerous, murky, complicated spaces. But there are skills we learned, there are hard lessons we learned, there are dark things we witness that are cautionary tales

[01:17:42] and life is about, you find yourself in these spaces,

[01:17:45] you learn the lessons, you get't understand. Because of course, if you're not like from the outside, do you think how could people do that? That's so weird or what was wrong with them. But when you know what that hook is and what it feels like to get in, it's specific. And it's nice to talk to other people who understand. Yeah. It demystifies it. I definitely have found that here,

[01:19:00] as it's being like new in Atlanta, the people that have kind of got the closest to already have

[01:19:04] seen the vow, had a similar whatever, whether it's a celebrate stuff. It's just being creative. That's something we do together. Yeah, yeah, we've started sort of hosting kind of launch house party concerts for bands.

[01:20:21] And it's like the way the music industry

[01:20:23] is that people put out one song sometimes at a time

[01:20:26] and it's not the old,

[01:20:27] it's like people still have albums, back up. Goodbye. Thank you. Please like what you hear. Do you give us a rating review and subscribe on iTunes. Every little bit helps us get this cult awareness content out there. Smash that subscribe button. You know you want to. Well, thank you, everybody. I hope I stayed calm and cool during that interview. I'm a big fan,

[01:21:44] especially of the other comical was I? You can reach out to Ben and Aoni directly. We'll